Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: doesitgoboom on May 27, 2015, 10:24:20 am
-
I find myself that I will over buy some cards when in the long run they are not the greatest buys. For one example I tend to way over buy villages with no reason behind it. I will end up drawing them all but not hit one terminal. So I just wonder how people learn to hone their buying process. Watching AdamH youtube video he seems very good at talking his way through a buy. The other thing he tends to do well that I have no skill in is the ability to track his deck and know when to stop drawing to not trigger the shuffle.
I tend to be if it is in my hand and I can play it I will play it.
-
Learning to not trigger the shuffle is as easy as stopping to ask yourself "does playing this actually benefit me" before playing each card (and not playing it if the answer is no).
Making correct buying decisions is a lot less trivial. It's a good idea to move away from the "I have X coins, let's see which card I can buy for X, oh, there's Village, that seems nice, I'll get that" line of thinking and instead start thinking in terms of deck composition and the needs of your overall strategy. If you're playing an engine strategy, for example, you need trashing early, a good balance of engine components in the early-mid game and payload and more engine components in the late-mid game. So, after deciding that engine is the best strategy in the kingdom, you should usually think along the lines of "I need trashing now — how can I get it?" and if it's the case that the trashing in the kingdom is more expensive than you can afford right now, plan ahead and buy cards that will help you reach the more expensive price point early. And in the early game, you should consider how you're going to acquire the engine parts later; you might need some economy for that, or you can use gainers to gain them, or you could use cards such as Wishing Well that are less efficient at giving you coins to spend, but won't get in your way later.
Basically, you should just have an idea of what your deck needs and how you're going to get what you need. The point is focusing on the deck and the purpose the cards serve in it, rather than the individual cards and their strengths.
-
....
So there is a nice long post about strategy. It needs an upvote
-
....
So there is a nice long post about strategy. It needs an upvote
But it doesn't contain any memes or inside jokes.
-
But it doesn't contain any memes or inside jokes.
Hmm... That's a downside, indeed. Next time somebody posts a strategical advice he should add a couple Scout jokes. Especially if he doesn't mint some really ingenious humor.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Well played!
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
The statement stands.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
We bought our house in August, 2009, which was basically the absolute low of the market in the DC area. A pretty good choice, but, again, only in hindsight.
But, back to Dominion for a moment. ;)
You probably should have some long term plan in mind at the outset of the game, but if I have learned anything from the collected streams of Mic Q, it is that you need to be flexible. I am still at best mediocre at the game for a lot of reasons, but I do remember the first time when I came to a situation where I had $5 to spend on one buy, but knew I really needed a Hamlet, and I actually bought what I needed. So in one reading: $5 for Hamlet? Really? In the correct reading: score! I got the Hamlet I needed!
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
The statement stands.
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
-
There's always discussions on this site about individual cards. A whole bunch of talk about combos, synergies, and very specific information that gets presented as fact. But the thing is, the top players aren't good because they memorized a billion combo lists. They're good because they know how to approach and analyze the game effectively, knowledge that hasn't been covered enough.
I glad this thread exists, I'm glad the last engine article WW wrote exists, and I hope more discussion on how to analyze the game takes place. Although please, enough with the shitposting.
-
Although please, enough with the shitposting.
Please give a thorough definition of "shitposting".
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
The statement stands.
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
The number one rule of Dominion: Never do anything too anything.
The great thing about this rule is that it extends to other board games. And life in general.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
The statement stands.
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
The number one rule of Dominion: Never do anything too anything.
The great thing about this rule is that it extends to other board games. And life in general.
"Never do driving too sober."
Wait, what?
-
Although please, enough with the shitposting.
NEVER!!!
-
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
You should do things precisely when you mean to.
-
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
You should do things precisely when you mean to.
Funny how it's always people who are late who say that.
-
What about Dukes? This is the one card I can not stop buying. It is my weakness.
-
What about Dukes? This is the one card I can not stop buying. It is my weakness.
It's a pretty good card but make sure you buy out the Duchies first.
-
What about Dukes? This is the one card I can not stop buying. It is my weakness.
Well I hope you are buying duchies first. All* the duchies
*Except when you shouldn't get quite all of the duchies because the game is ending.
But now we are talking about specific cards, which is becoming less and less useful as more expansions come out.
Edit: For one example I tend to way over buy villages with no reason behind it. I will end up drawing them all but not hit one terminal.
In general a 1:1 ratio of terminals to villages is a good rule of thumb, but I like to take it a bit further and say you should usually have at least 1 more terminal than village. And two terminals before your first village too, and maybe stick with two more terminals than villages while you aren't drawing that much. In strategies that don't intend to go on crazy action turns, you might not want ANY villages, even if you are getting 3+ terminals. For example, Cultist really doesn't like other action cards at all, so the engine really has to be there for a village to be worth it.
There is a general feeling that terminal collision is BAD and we should to everything possible to avoid it. I think that terminal collision is a necessary risk a lot of the time and that buying villages or limiting terminals in your deck feels like the safer route, but can be much slower and can lose you the game. Drawing a village and a remodel together is hardly any better than drawing two remodels. Okay, remodel is special because it can deal with terminal collisions. But in general, having a left over action is only marginally better than a left over action in hand, especially because in a terminal collision you still get to play whichever terminal is better.
-
We purchased a house at the height of the housing bubble. A very poor decision, but alas only in hindsight.
This goes to show - never green too early.
Unless you start with a hovel.
The statement stands.
Yes, by definition, you should never too anything too early. Nor should you do things too late.
True, you should do things precisely when you mean to.
*Ninja'd*
-
I meant Nobles not dukes. I was a little out of it when I wrote that last night. Didn't realize until I played a game that I confused them.
-
I meant Nobles not dukes. I was a little out of it when I wrote that last night. Didn't realize until I played a game that I confused them.
If you're "overbuying" Nobles and Villages, you're doing pretty well already. Just get rid of your starting 10 cards first and you should be pretty reliably drawing your entire deck every turn. Then you just need to remember that drawing your deck every turn is not your goal, it's just a means to an end — that is, playing your payload cards a lot, which means that you also need the payload cards in your deck because otherwise you can't play them.
On the other hand, if it's not an engine game, you don't necessarily want any Nobles at all and if Nobles/big money is the best strategy on the board, then you want a couple, but not more.
In general a 1:1 ratio of terminals to villages is a good rule of thumb, but I like to take it a bit further and say you should usually have at least 1 more terminal than village. And two terminals before your first village too, and maybe stick with two more terminals than villages while you aren't drawing that much. In strategies that don't intend to go on crazy action turns, you might not want ANY villages, even if you are getting 3+ terminals. For example, Cultist really doesn't like other action cards at all, so the engine really has to be there for a village to be worth it.
There is a general feeling that terminal collision is BAD and we should to everything possible to avoid it. I think that terminal collision is a necessary risk a lot of the time and that buying villages or limiting terminals in your deck feels like the safer route, but can be much slower and can lose you the game. Drawing a village and a remodel together is hardly any better than drawing two remodels. Okay, remodel is special because it can deal with terminal collisions. But in general, having a left over action is only marginally better than a left over action in hand, especially because in a terminal collision you still get to play whichever terminal is better.
The main purpose of splitters is to let you play more Actions after your terminal draw. You don't need any splitters as long as you don't have any terminal draw, but you do want more splitters than terminal draw. I usually buy two Swindlers before my first Village, but two Villages before my first Smithy.
-
So as for your buys, particularly with Villages, one general piece of advice I can give you is to divide your situations into two categories:
First, where the village split matters. If there's only one stack of Villages and it's important to win the split, then usually you just build your deck early on where winning that split is a priority, so overbuying is not as bad here (but don't pass on early trashing or junking or anything crazy just to win the split).
Second, where the village split is less important. Let's say there just aren't that many terminals you need to play, or there are multiple villages on the board so denial isn't a huge deal. In this case, you'll often hear me ask myself "what is the best card for my deck right now?" Now what this really means is "what are the best cards to put in my deck before I shuffle again?" and you'll want to track your deck to see what you're likely to buy on your other turns before you shuffle, but this is much more a short-term decision. You should have an idea of what you want your deck to look like, yes, but you'll want to add cards to your deck that get you there as quickly as possible.
If you're drawing your deck, it's a simple decision -- increase your payload as much as you can while still being able to draw your deck. You can actually plan a few turns ahead in these cases and get some extra benefits. It's pretty clear in this case that you don't want extra Villages, because extra actions at the end of your turn don't help you at all. If you are on your way to drawing your deck but not quite there, this still mostly holds, but you can't be as precise about your payload and planning ahead usually isn't profitable.
If you aren't drawing your deck, but plan to some day, then maaaaaybe you want like one extra Village for reliability, but this depends on a lot of things and will usually not give you a super-huge benefit. Certainly if you're properly balanced now and you can only get one card before you shuffle, Village is probably better than payload, but again this is not always the case.
If you don't plan to draw your deck, well, you should think pretty hard about whether you want Villages at all. Maybe you still do, but a lot of my advice doesn't apply anymore in that case.
As for not triggering the shuffle, I mean I've gone through a progression of stopping myself before playing all types of cards and making sure it's a good thing. And yeah it's really hard. There are still tons of things I realize I did wrong right after I clicked it. It will probably take a while to get used to it, but the right answer is to think before you play your cards always.
Yeah this takes forever, so I've developed some habits. Like I just try not to click the "Play All Treasures" button when Farmland is on the board (and Save -- Iso bailed me out several times on this one but MF Dominion probably won't) and other assorted things. You can just try to put them into your mind when the game starts along with other strategic points (think about gaining Inn at all times, etc.) It's a slow process, but I think it's a good way to get better at the game.
-
The main purpose of splitters is to let you play more Actions after your terminal draw. You don't need any splitters as long as you don't have any terminal draw, but you do want more splitters than terminal draw. I usually buy two Swindlers before my first Village, but two Villages before my first Smithy.
This is terrible advice. It's trying to make a generalization that isn't at all widespread enough to be useful. Lots of decks without terminal draw want Villages. Almost all the Villages do things besides give +actions so that's reason enough right there to consider many of them. Sometimes your draw is nonterminal but you have several terminal actions you'd like to play. Sometimes you trash enough that you can expect to play two terminals on many turns.
"two Villages before my first Smithy." What? This is awful, there's no way this is your typical build order.
-
Last night in a league match I was able to track my deck with a little reliability. I was at the end of a shuffle with one card left to draw. I remember on instant that ended up in a one point victory. I already had a Providence buy in hand for the current turn. I was able to realize that I had a Draw card sitting there and knew to make sure to leave it there. In the end it gave me the ability to hit 8 again the next turn and pull off the last Providence for the win.
-
"two Villages before my first Smithy." What? This is awful, there's no way this is your typical build order.
I wouldn't go that far, but I definitely try to pick up a village and a terminal draw in the same shuffle, unless it's attack terminal draw, then that shit gets picked up asap.
-
This is terrible advice. It's trying to make a generalization that isn't at all widespread enough to be useful. Lots of decks without terminal draw want Villages. Almost all the Villages do things besides give +actions so that's reason enough right there to consider many of them. Sometimes your draw is nonterminal but you have several terminal actions you'd like to play. Sometimes you trash enough that you can expect to play two terminals on many turns.
"two Villages before my first Smithy." What? This is awful, there's no way this is your typical build order.
There are obviously edge cases, that's why I said it's the main purpose, not the only purpose.
Yes, two Swindlers, two Villages and then a Smithy is my typical build order. I don't think it's awful.
-
There are obviously edge cases, that's why I said it's the main purpose, not the only purpose.
Those aren't edge cases! They are all quite common. You can't wave them away. The Villages are not just about +actions for terminal draw, they do a million other things. There are lots of nonterminal drawing decks that want Villages.
Yes, two Swindlers, two Villages and then a Smithy is my typical build order. I don't think it's awful.
I read the original sentence as saying you buy two Villages before buying any Smithies in general (totally separate from the Swindler part), just so you know your sentence could be parsed that way.
As to whether your clarified build order is awful, well now you're advocating some specific order which is not useful in general. It could be correct of course but it isn't something worth remembering or following on boards with Swindler/Village/Smithy. I still consider it bad strategy advice.
I find almost all the discussion in this thread strategically useless when it's divorced from example game logs and real in game decisions. Everything is too vague and basically assumes the reader already knows how to play well, it doesn't teach. Most of it is tautology ("just do the best thing!") and much of the rest is wrong.
-
There are obviously edge cases, that's why I said it's the main purpose, not the only purpose.
Those aren't edge cases! They are all quite common. You can't wave them away. The Villages are not just about +actions for terminal draw, they do a million other things. There are lots of nonterminal drawing decks that want Villages.
Yes, two Swindlers, two Villages and then a Smithy is my typical build order. I don't think it's awful.
I read the original sentence as saying you buy two Villages before buying any Smithies in general (totally separate from the Swindler part), just so you know your sentence could be parsed that way.
As to whether your clarified build order is awful, well now you're advocating some specific order which is not useful in general. It could be correct of course but it isn't something worth remembering or following on boards with Swindler/Village/Smithy. I still consider it bad strategy advice.
I find almost all the discussion in this thread strategically useless when it's divorced from example game logs and real in game decisions. Everything is too vague and basically assumes the reader already knows how to play well, it doesn't teach. Most of it is tautology ("just do the best thing!") and much of the rest is wrong.
Not wanting terminal draw is already an edge case. Then even more conditions need to be true before you actually start buying splitters for other purposes.
The specific order is just an example. I'm actually not sure how often I do it myself, probably not very. The point is that you want non-drawing terminals before your first splitters and your first splitters before your first terminal draw, which is obviously not always correct, but I think it's a useful mindset to have even when it's not correct.
The discussion in this thread might not be very useful for teaching a new player what plays they should make in order to win more games, but I think a lot of it is useful for teaching how the game should be approached to become better at it. Which is probably a lot more useful than "strategically useful" advice — in Dominion's case, it's always either too vague to be of much use or too specific to be of much use.
-
I will remember in the future that every board without terminal draw is just an edge case and dismiss them as irrelevant. Thanks Awaclus!
-
Villages are not so straightforward to work out. The first thing to realize though is that you generally need a hand with two terminals and a village to make the village worthwhile. When you start thinking of the possible different draws you can get from a big deck, whether it's villages and no terminal, one village and one terminal, two terminals and no village, etc, you will probably find more draws where the villages are not useful than draws where they are useful. As soon as you move to smaller deck, or have larger hands, or can improve the quality of your draws with a warehouse type card, you will find that the villages and terminals come together better. The more that you can control your draws, the more value you can get from villages.
Another thing to consider is how important the alternative cards will be. The typical alternative to a village is just silver and sometimes silver is itself a poor card.
-
On the other hand, if it's not an engine game, you don't necessarily want any Nobles at all and if Nobles/big money is the best strategy on the board, then you want a couple, but not more.
I'm not so sure Nobles would be better to get than Gold in a BM game. Gold is pretty good.
-
On the other hand, if it's not an engine game, you don't necessarily want any Nobles at all and if Nobles/big money is the best strategy on the board, then you want a couple, but not more.
I'm not so sure Nobles would be better to get than Gold in a BM game. Gold is pretty good.
3 cards should net more than $3 on average in a BM deck (granted, to get to that density, you might need to buy a Gold or two first). And these 2 VP come in pretty handy in the endgame if there's no +buy.
-
@Awaclus, pretty often you should be getting terminal draw before splitters, e.g. when the non-drawing terminal is stronger later in the game, or too expensive to buy early. These aren't edge cases.
-
On the other hand, if it's not an engine game, you don't necessarily want any Nobles at all and if Nobles/big money is the best strategy on the board, then you want a couple, but not more.
I'm not so sure Nobles would be better to get than Gold in a BM game. Gold is pretty good.
3 cards should net more than $3 on average in a BM deck (granted, to get to that density, you might need to buy a Gold or two first). And these 2 VP come in pretty handy in the endgame if there's no +buy.
Shouldn't you not get another Smithy for a bit in a Smithy-BM game because, while the second Smithy is good, a bit more Silver is better?
-
On the other hand, if it's not an engine game, you don't necessarily want any Nobles at all and if Nobles/big money is the best strategy on the board, then you want a couple, but not more.
I'm not so sure Nobles would be better to get than Gold in a BM game. Gold is pretty good.
3 cards should net more than $3 on average in a BM deck (granted, to get to that density, you might need to buy a Gold or two first). And these 2 VP come in pretty handy in the endgame if there's no +buy.
Shouldn't you not get another Smithy for a bit in a Smithy-BM game because, while the second Smithy is good, a bit more Silver is better?
No, you should get another Smithy. Not right away, but a bit later it's good.
@Awaclus, pretty often you should be getting terminal draw before splitters, e.g. when the non-drawing terminal is stronger later in the game, or too expensive to buy early. These aren't edge cases.
True. And it's still a beneficial mindset.