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Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: faust on December 22, 2014, 02:05:24 pm

Title: Prince
Post by: faust on December 22, 2014, 02:05:24 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ea/Prince.jpg)

Prince is the shiny new card that got us all excited for a while until the new expansion was announced. The eventual effect – being able to play a card every turn without using an action or card slot – is super strong, but it's a long way until you get there.

Prince of what?

Let's start with the easy part – determining which cards you want Princed. Usually, once you bought a Prince, you want to set it aside as soon as possible. But if you have two potential targets, deciding which one to Prince might be difficult. Plus, if you see a kingdom full of cards you don't want Princed, you probably shouldn't go for Prince. I'll present a list of very bad to very good Prince targets.

The completely useless
Durations, one-shots

These cards just don't work with Prince, for technical reasons.

The very bad
Ambassador, Baron, draw-to-X, Cursers/Looters, trashers

Cards you probably don't want to Prince even if you can. With these, it's often better to Prince a shuffle later. This includes cards that require you to have certain cards in hand to be good, like trashers (require junk cards), but also cards you want to play a lot of early on and that lose value quickly (junkers).

The rather bad
Throne Room, Villages, Menagerie, Reactions

Cards you will probably Prince if you draw your Prince with nothing else, but where the effect just isn't great. Princing reactions means losing the reaction part, if you Prince a Village, you will usually end up with lots of unused actions. Throne Room can end up doing nothing, or even throning a bad card [side note: if you Prince Throne Room and throne a duration with it, you lose the Princing].

The rather good
Cantrips, trashing attacks, gainers, +buy, sifters, +coins

Cards that are almost always nice princed. Cantrips help you avoid terminal collision AND let you start with bigger hand size, which is already two plusses.

The really good
+cards, Discard attacks, Monument, Tournament, Scheme, Prizes

These kinds of cards are exceptionally good. Starting with a bigger handsize each turn is huge. A princed discard is sort of the inverse effect - opponents start with lower hand size each turn. Monument gives 1 VP per turn. Scheme effectively lets you play a more expensive card each turn. On tournament and Prizes, see below.

Note that this list does not imply that you should go for Prince whenever good Princable cards are around. The decision to make if e.g. Tournament is around is much harder than this. The following part tries to give some guidelines for deciding when to go for it.

When to go for Prince

First and foremost, Prince is an engine card. It has no place in big money games or slogs, simply because – similar to Throne Room/King's Court – you need to line it up with an action to get anything out of it. There are rare circumstances where you might want to use it even in non-engine decks, but the general advice is, ignore it if you're not building an engine.

Even if you are going for the engine, consider carefully if you really want Prince. The main problem about Prince is that it is slow. That Prince could have been a Province, and then you don't get the effect immediately, but instead need to sacrifice on action to set aside the card you want. That puts you behind a Province and roughly half a turn. If you could buy a single Province per turn before and now can buy two Provinces a turn, that may have been worth it; but more often than not, the benefit simply won't be big enough.

The following list gives scenarios where Prince can be good.

1. Colony games

There are two reasons why Prince is better in Colony games: First, Prince is made for long games, and Colony games tend to go longer. The more turns you have, the more will you be able to play your Princed cards. Second, the competition for Prince is weaker. In a Colony game, you usually don't want to go for Provinces except in the endgame, so if you hit $8, you can grab a Prince without that much opportunity cost.

2. Alt-VP

Same as above – if you don't want those Provinces anyway, ignoring them becomes easier. This point comes with a caveat though: Most Alt-VP cards (Gardens, Duke, Feodum) support decks that don't want Prince in it. But Prince can be great with Fairgrounds and Vineyard, and there's always the odd engine-into-Duchy/Duke game. The VP token cards also fall in this category: Prince allows you to build better Golden Decks for Bishop, a Prince of Monuments nets you 1 VP per turn, And Prince an help play more Goons per turn.

3. Prince while ahead

If you already have a decent advantage, you may be able to cope with skipping a Province buy. Prince can give your deck additional reliability and prevent you from losing to unlucky draws.

4. 2-card combos

This is a bit of a niche use for Prince, but can be quite good. Some cards combo nicely in theory, but it just isn't worthwile to set them up, because e.g. the one you'd need to play first is terminal. Prince can help with that. Prince a Navigator and your Herald engine will flow smoothly. Prince a Scavenger to get the card you want on top of your deck.

5. Rare components

This is definitely the scenario where Prince shines most. Sometimes, the engine is just not quite powerful enough. There are awesome eninge components, but the only Village is Necropolis? Just crown a Prince of Necropoles (is that the correct plural form?), and you'll start with three actions each turn. Similarly, a Prince of Crossroads can make your engine work.
While +action is what you need to make the engine work most often, there are also other possibilities: Maybe you can't guarantee drawing a +buy every turn – set it aside. Princed attacks are also quite nice.

When to play Prince

Usually, you want to Prince your cards as soon as possible. If you have Prince with a decent card in hand, don't wait for a better opportunity! Another mistake that is often made is this: you have Prince and Wishing Well in hand. Unless you can be pretty certain that you can draw a better action, don't play the Wishing Well! It's tempting to try and get more out of your turn, but if your Prince ends up dead, you'll curse your recklessness.

Countering Prince

Not much needs to be said here. If your opponent goes for Prince and you don't, your task is to end the game before his Prince pays off too much. Piledrive these Provinces, go for the three-pile. The longer the game, the better for the Prince player.

Specific interactions

In this last part, I'd like to pick a few special cards that have an interesting interaction with Prince.

Prince and Tournament

Prince and Tournament have a love-hate relationship. You need Provinces to activate your Tournaments, and every Prince could have been a Province. On the other hand, once you've Princed a Tournament, every hand with a Province in it wins. And, even better, once you've got those Prizes, you can Prince them and quickly get your opponent to resign. Getting Province with your first $8 and Prince with your second isn't a bad strategy on many Tournament boards.

Prince and Black Market

No, not what you think... Princing a Black Market is of course horrible. But what Prince really likes is the Black Market deck. Often you get a good card from the Black Market, but it's not enough because you can only ever get one copy. With Prince, you can play that card every turn.

Prince and cost reducers

Prince loves cost reducers because they give the opportunity to set aside better cards. After two Highways, you can set aside a Goons. Just don't spend too much time on such neat tricks. It's often better to set aside Prince this shuffle with a boring 4-cost than to wait another shuffle in hopes of getting that Prince of Hunting Grounds.
One warning: If you Prince a Bridge, keep in mind the effect that has on your TfB cards. You definitely look stupid when you start Upgrading your Coppers into Estates.

Prince of Hermits

This can be great if the kingdom allows for it. If you don't buy anything a turn, Prince sets aside Hermit before it can trash itself. That means, if you can cobble together an engine that doesn't need to buy anything, the Prince of Hermits can give you a constant supply of Madmen.

Other interactions
Outpost: more turns mean more Princed card plays. And Prince is often enough to make those Outpost turns as good as normal turns.
Quarry: Lowers the bar for Prince. Now it doesn't compete with Province anymore.
Swindler: Just like Peddler, the presence of Prince makes Swindler games even swingier than usual. If you manage to turn Province into Prince late-game, this can be a game-changer. And unlike Peddler, Princes will very rarely run out towards the endgame.

Conclusion

Prince is a unique card, but don't let that distract you. It's not that good. It has its uses, but you usually shouldn't just buy it without good reason.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on December 22, 2014, 02:18:13 pm
I don't know why Villages/Menagerie are in the rather bad category. Menagerie I kind of get, but I don't see Villages at all. And surely +cards should be in the top tier. Getting increased handsize at the start of your turn is so strong. You're also missing +coins in your tiers.

There is a typo "Provinces expect in the endgame" should be except.

I would probably downgrade "not that good" to "pretty bad."
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: JW on December 22, 2014, 02:25:38 pm
Prince is usually not worth getting. Still, Prince of +cards seems much stronger than you make it out to be, with Smithy as the stand-out.

You also don't mention Outpost, which can make Prince much stronger. Sample game where Stef gets a bunch of Princes of cantrips and Outpost and wins even though there's only terminal draw and no villages. http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20141204/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1417729808871.txt
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Awaclus on December 22, 2014, 02:59:06 pm
I think that KC could be worth mentioning. If there's a KC in the game, you probably don't want to Prince your Bridges and Monuments.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: soulnet on December 22, 2014, 05:22:41 pm
I would say Prince of +cards (especially Smitty or Oracle) is the best kind of Prince in most games. Much better than Prince of Attack, because in the deck that wants Prince, you will be playing the Attack yourself if you start with a high-size hand, but if Prince plays your Attack, it does not help you play all your other stuff.

I would mention HoP, which can gain Princes for reliability/explosion without that much op cost as buying them (it is not uncommon you are not ready to trash them for green yet the first time you play 8 uniques). Also, Prince helps ensure there lots of uniques in play for HoP.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: silverspawn on December 22, 2014, 05:37:51 pm
the thing is that Action cards have a reliability factor and a strength factor, which combined make their powerlevel. Prince ensures reliability, which is why not only overall powerlevel is important for your target, but also a high strength/reliablity ratio.

For example, sage is super reliable, because you can always play it and it's always good. Smithy is extremely unreliable, because it can collide with other terminals, and even if it doesn't it can still draw cards dead. that's why smithy makes an amazing prince target, and Sage a pretty bad one. okay, sage is also weaker than smithy, but even prince of lab would probably be inferior to prince of smithy most of the time, despite lab being stronger than smithy.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: faust on December 22, 2014, 06:18:50 pm
Okay, addressing some points. +cards probably should move one tier, agreed.

Village is in the "rather bad" category because A) if you just want to ensure enough actions at the start of your turn, cantrips do more for you, and B) in a game with Villages, chances are there are better Prince targets. Villages are only really good when there's a shortage of them; I adress this point later.

Outpost is definitely worth mentioning; I thought about it halfway through, but forgot when I reached the final section.

I will make some changes soon.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: DG on December 22, 2014, 07:04:03 pm
Even the cheapest, simplest actions can work well with a Prince. I see the Prince more as a solution card than an efficiency card, so as long an action can fit into your solution it could be worth setting aside with Prince.

Prince with a +2 coins terminal shouldn't be discounted. It might not be stellar but it can be surprisingly effective at the right time.

Prince can work well with decks that can peak early and weaken later. This could certainly be true of an apothecary based deck, for example.

Princes can misfire when setting aside a card that always acts even though you may not want it to, such as a smugglers. Some actions, such as bishop maybe, are often best played at the end of a turn once a better selection of cards are drawn into hand.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: soulnet on December 22, 2014, 07:11:56 pm
Princes can misfire when setting aside a card that always acts even though you may not want it to, such as a smugglers. Some actions, such as bishop maybe, are often best played at the end of a turn once a better selection of cards are drawn into hand.

This general statement also shows why +cards is one of the best choices for Prince in an engine: it is usually what you want to play first in your engine, as long as you have actions remaining (unless you want to TR/Procession/KC). Payload cards (like Attacks and Money) you usually want to play last.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Beyond Awesome on December 22, 2014, 07:22:11 pm
If Prince and +draw is on the board (smithy, envoy, oracle) then Prince should seriously be considered. I have even played non-engine games where getting Prince with the +draw is huge. Also, Prince with +draw can create an engine where otherwise it would be impossible to have an engine.

I disagree about Tournament though. Those games tend to be fast and over before Prince can really make a difference. At least, usually. It is fun to Prince a prize but usually the game changing factor is getting the right prize in the first place.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: eHalcyon on December 22, 2014, 09:36:46 pm
For example, sage is super reliable, because you can always play it and it's always good.

You play Sage, it skips over your only +Buy card (Herbalist, Ruined Market, whatever), draws Province. :P

Also, I just noticed that this isn't your article.  What's going on?  After all that anticipation...
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: markusin on December 22, 2014, 11:28:46 pm
For example, sage is super reliable, because you can always play it and it's always good.

You play Sage, it skips over your only +Buy card (Herbalist, Ruined Market, whatever), draws Province. :P

Also, I just noticed that this isn't your article.  What's going on?  After all that anticipation...
He's supposed to write an article on Island. Faust decided to write one for Prince because it came second in the vote.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Rubby on December 23, 2014, 11:09:13 am
He's supposed to write an article on Island.

He's also supposed to "rate all official Kingdom cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11910.msg429528#msg429528")" (not just the bottom 42!)  :P
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: silverspawn on December 23, 2014, 01:16:41 pm
He's supposed to write an article on Island.

He's also supposed to "rate all official Kingdom cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11910.msg429528#msg429528")" (not just the bottom 42!)  :P

hey, it's christmas. I'm on the island article, but I didn't set myself a deadline, so I'm allowed to take more than one weekend. I'll take a while.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: qmech on December 23, 2014, 06:38:41 pm
hey, it's christmas. I'm on the island [...]

Christmas Island? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Island)
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Donald X. on December 23, 2014, 09:31:32 pm
hey, it's christmas. I'm on the island [...]

Christmas Island? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Island)
just don't look at the goat
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: faust on December 24, 2014, 10:46:18 am
hey, it's christmas. I'm on the island [...]

Christmas Island? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Island)

Pretty sure that's what he means. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11890.0)
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: werothegreat on December 24, 2014, 11:45:48 am
Let me know once the article is in its final form, and I'll move it over to the wiki!

And just curious, I'm guessing Junkers are so low for Princing because if there's junk flying around, it's a lot harder to connect Prince to the relevant card?  Because I would totally be down for a Prince of Sea Hags or Marauders if I could pull it off.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: LastFootnote on December 24, 2014, 11:48:17 am
Let me know once the article is in its final form, and I'll move it over to the wiki!

And just curious, I'm guessing Junkers are so low for Princing because if there's junk flying around, it's a lot harder to connect Prince to the relevant card?  Because I would totally be down for a Prince of Sea Hags or Marauders if I could pull it off.

It's because by the time you Prince a junker, the junk is usually gone. In one of my first playtest games, I pulled a Sea Hag from my (Prince of the) Black Market and proceeded to get a Prince of Sea Hags. But that situation is the exception to the rule.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Polk5440 on December 24, 2014, 12:00:13 pm
Let me know once the article is in its final form, and I'll move it over to the wiki!

And just curious, I'm guessing Junkers are so low for Princing because if there's junk flying around, it's a lot harder to connect Prince to the relevant card?  Because I would totally be down for a Prince of Sea Hags or Marauders if I could pull it off.

It's because by the time you Prince a junker, the junk is usually gone. In one of my first playtest games, I pulled a Sea Hag from my (Prince of the) Black Market and proceeded to get a Prince of Sea Hags. But that situation is the exception to the rule.

It would be worth adding a one-sentence explanation of this to the article because it takes a minute to figure out why Sea Hag and Marauder are not usually that great Princed.

Also, there should be some note about Bridge and Highway and Princess allowing a Prince-of-something-that-normally-cost-5-or-more.

Also, very nice article! And quick turnaround. Would order again.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: soulnet on December 24, 2014, 01:13:45 pm
Besides the arguments already given for junkers in particular, the most important part is that junkers are payload and you want to play payload last, so you want to prioritize Princing your +cards, and then your +actions, not your payload. I would say Princing a junker is an edge case even within the universe of pulling the single junker out of the Black Market.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: LastFootnote on December 24, 2014, 01:45:45 pm
Besides the arguments already given for junkers in particular, the most important part is that junkers are payload and you want to play payload last, so you want to prioritize Princing your +cards, and then your +actions, not your payload. I would say Princing a junker is an edge case even within the universe of pulling the single junker out of the Black Market.

Aren't you putting the cart before the horse, or something? You play payload last because you play your draw first. But Princing a card throws all of that out the window. I'm thrilled with e.g. a Prince of Monuments.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: sudgy on December 24, 2014, 02:33:05 pm
Noooooooooo I was going to make how write the Prince article on April 1st...
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: soulnet on December 24, 2014, 03:30:16 pm
Aren't you putting the cart before the horse, or something? You play payload last because you play your draw first. But Princing a card throws all of that out the window. I'm thrilled with e.g. a Prince of Monuments.

Prince gives you a free action either way and lets you play a card for free. If you are playing an engine, and one that Princes the draw, you can probably play the Monument yourself, with the rest of your payload, at the end. If you Prince part of your payload, it is more likely that your engine stalls and you fail to play the rest of the payload (like, Treasures).

I see Princing payload in engines that fall apart when greening, like Apothecary or Minion. But Prince being their only support is probably way more rare than regular engines that keep work through the whole game.

I can see some strange golden deck-y Prince decks in which you get, for instance, Prince+Monument and set aside Prince+Monument everyturn or something like that, but it would not be the usual case.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: LastFootnote on December 24, 2014, 03:50:18 pm
You make good points. I agree that terminal draw is an ideal target for Prince, since its biggest weakness of possibly drawing dead Action cards is negated. But it's not SO much better that I'll choose not to Prince a terminal Silver given that opportunity.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Jack Rudd on December 25, 2014, 08:06:09 am
I would say Princing a junker is an edge case even within the universe of pulling the single junker out of the Black Market.
Edge case of the edge case: Prince of Cultists.

ETA: Which is only good if you don't pull the junker out of the Black Market.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: soulnet on December 25, 2014, 08:59:36 am
You make good points. I agree that terminal draw is an ideal target for Prince, since its biggest weakness of possibly drawing dead Action cards is negated. But it's not SO much better that I'll choose not to Prince a terminal Silver given that opportunity.

I would also play Prince even if payload is the only target, if that's what you meant. I think you almost always want to play it on the first turn you have a chance to, and that rule trumps the "Princing priority".
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: SwitchedFromStarcraft on December 25, 2014, 09:34:11 am
I've never seen Prince before today, and have read it carefully twice.  I still have the following questions:

On first play, you play the Prince and then the target card. In the cleanup phase, you leave the target card out in the play area so it is used next turn, and each subsequent turn (until perhaps you don't want it to play anymore).  Does the Prince stay out in the play area as well, or does it go into the discards?  I can see it needing to stay out to "mark" the target card, similar to a KC or TR staying out with an associated duration card.

If it goes into the discards, it could be used again on another target card, correct?
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Jack Rudd on December 25, 2014, 09:44:58 am
The Prince stays out in set-aside land. Forever.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: SwitchedFromStarcraft on December 25, 2014, 10:02:42 am
So Prince is, in a way, a one-shot.  It would stay set aside even if you moved the target card into the discard so that the target card eventually returns to a hand at some point. Have I understood this correctly?

Given its cost, and the article's discussion about taking a while to get running, are there boards/game conditions where one would consider obtaining more than one Prince?  I suspect that would be extremely edge-case-y, but I'm thinking of highway and bridge (or haggler with price reducers in play).  But I'm so rusty I can't remember the limitations on what prices get reduced with highway and bridge (action cards only, all cards, etc.).

Regardless, you would still be deciding to take a second Prince over a Province if both the price of both are reduced the same amount.  I can see how that would be unlikely when players are already greening and you've paid the opportunity cost of setting up your first Prince.

Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Davio on December 25, 2014, 10:24:35 am
Prince is like Possession: high cost, high variance.
If you do connect Prince and a drawer early that's basically game.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: AJD on December 25, 2014, 12:02:39 pm
On first play, you play the Prince and then the target card.

You play the Prince and set aside the target card—the target card doesn't actually get played until the following turn.

Quote
In the cleanup phase, you leave the target card out in the play area so it is used next turn, and each subsequent turn

Not quite—unlike Duration cards, you leave the target card set aside between turns, not in the play area; it enters the play area at the beginning of your turn and is cleaned up at the end of the end of the turn, but when you clean it up you set it aside.

Quote
(until perhaps you don't want it to play anymore).

No, you don't have a choice.

Quote
Does the Prince stay out in the play area as well, or does it go into the discards?

Neither; the Prince is set aside when you play it and, as noted by Jack Rudd, stays there for the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: faust on December 25, 2014, 07:44:43 pm
So Prince is, in a way, a one-shot.  It would stay set aside even if you moved the target card into the discard so that the target card eventually returns to a hand at some point. Have I understood this correctly?

Given its cost, and the article's discussion about taking a while to get running, are there boards/game conditions where one would consider obtaining more than one Prince?  I suspect that would be extremely edge-case-y, but I'm thinking of highway and bridge (or haggler with price reducers in play).  But I'm so rusty I can't remember the limitations on what prices get reduced with highway and bridge (action cards only, all cards, etc.).

Regardless, you would still be deciding to take a second Prince over a Province if both the price of both are reduced the same amount.  I can see how that would be unlikely when players are already greening and you've paid the opportunity cost of setting up your first Prince.

Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

I think Colony games may have use for more than one Prince, and other Alt-VP games where you don't want Provinces might as well (Vineyards!). More edge-casey, Quarry might lead to games with multiple Princes, as it lowers the opportunity cost.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: markusin on December 25, 2014, 09:57:32 pm
Another edge case for getting multiple Princes is Stonemason, which lets you get 2 Princes for 10 coins but can't get you 2 Provinces.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: TheOthin on December 25, 2014, 10:24:45 pm
Anything that gains Action cards specifically or preferentially could help. Horn of Plenty and Treasury seem like the more notable cases, but getting really into edge cases there's stuff like Procession, University, Talisman, and Haggler when combined with the right other cards. (Although in Haggler's case it's dependent on already having Colonies or Quarry in the first place which already change Prince's standing.)
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: GeoLib on December 25, 2014, 10:51:56 pm
Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

Here: http://dominionstrategy.com/all-cards/
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: werothegreat on December 26, 2014, 12:40:25 am
Edit:  I'm having trouble finding the list(s) of all the cards.  Can someone provide me the link, and I will bookmark it.

Here: http://dominionstrategy.com/all-cards/

Or here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/List_of_cards
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: GendoIkari on December 26, 2014, 01:06:20 am
Quote
A throned discard is sort of the inverse effect

Should be "Princed", not "Throned".

Quote
n a Colony game, you usually don't want to go for Provinces expect in the endgame

"Except."
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: faust on December 27, 2014, 08:24:01 am
Thanks for all the input; I've updated the article now. There are some more explanations about the card order, and I've addressed some other interactions with Prince. I consider the article mostly finished now; maybe I'll add some example games when I encounter nice boards.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: werothegreat on December 27, 2014, 12:06:18 pm
And now it's up on the wiki!

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Prince (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Prince)
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 29, 2014, 11:18:07 am
First off, thanks for writing a card article! We haven't got a ton of these recently. I have a couple things I'd like to contribute to the conversation. Take these with a grain of salt, since I don't own Prince on MF and thus don't have much experience with it in high level 2-player games.

I think the biggest thing about Prince, which isn't emphasized enough here, is the reliability aspect. Silverspawn mentions it in the context of card reliability, but it also has a lot to do with the reliability of your deck as a whole. If you have something like an Alchemist stack that is going to draw your deck all the time, you really have no need for Prince, and it's not worth the huge cost. But if your deck is something like Villages and Smithys with a bunch of  treasure, there's a pretty good chance of not getting a Village in your starting hand, which can just kill a turn. In this case, Price might be useful.

In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme. That Scheme must be used on the L2 City and a card that your want to play immediately after it. So if you have a deck in which you wouldn't buy a Scheme, you should really think twice about buying a Prince. Prince is still a little better if you're not shuffling that frequently, since it persists forever rather than once per shuffle, but it's still just doing the same kind of thing.

Of course the other part is the L2 City. If there's no villages, and you could really use one, it might be worth buying Prince even in a reliable deck. Say you can reliably draw up most of your deck with Stables or something, but there are 2 terminals you potentially want to play -- usually a +buy and something else (an attack, some big source of money like Coppersmith, or maybe another +buy). Having just one extra action can be a big deal here. I'm sure you've experienced this with Necropolis allowing for it, but Prince can do the same thing in non-Shelters games, albeit at a very high cost. But potentially this is occasionally worth it, for example in the Stables/Coppersmith/terminal +buy example.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Polk5440 on December 29, 2014, 01:50:40 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 29, 2014, 02:25:47 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

What I mean is that if you Prince a <card>, it's like at the start of every turn playing Level 2 City, 2x Scheme, <card>, and then at the end choosing to return the L2 City and the <card>.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: amalloy on December 29, 2014, 02:36:33 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn. But I've realized that this is an oversimplification: it's actually a Treasure Map that you have to collide with a different non-Treasure-Map card first, which Pillages yourself for one turn but then transforms into the Lab+Village+Scheme. I never really understood how to play Prince properly until I recognized that it's five unrelated cards all at once.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: blueblimp on December 29, 2014, 03:10:30 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
It's just saying that the effect of Prince is the same as a level 2 City plus reliability. If you play a level 2 City, you net +1 actions and +1 cards (because you get +2 actions +2 cards, but spent an action and a card to play it). Prince effectively does this, then immediately spends that action and card to play the card you have set aside.

That's why Princing a Village is about as good as Princing a Smithy, contrary to the claim of the article. Either way, you still get the level 2 City benefit, and the reliability of having a Village each turn is nearly as valuable as having a Smithy each turn, in an engine deck.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: silverspawn on December 29, 2014, 03:48:18 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.
It's just saying that the effect of Prince is the same as a level 2 City plus reliability. If you play a level 2 City, you net +1 actions and +1 cards (because you get +2 actions +2 cards, but spent an action and a card to play it). Prince effectively does this, then immediately spends that action and card to play the card you have set aside.

That's why Princing a Village is about as good as Princing a Smithy, contrary to the claim of the article. Either way, you still get the level 2 City benefit, and the reliability of having a Village each turn is nearly as valuable as having a Smithy each turn, in an engine deck.


I don't think that's true; I think stalling a 6 card hand with 3 actions is considerably more likely than an 8 card hand with 1 action.

but more importantly, draw is much better for non-engines
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: SCSN on December 29, 2014, 04:07:04 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn.

Is the stream still up somewhere? Mic always comes across as so ridiculously composed that I'd love to hear him lose his cool!
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: amalloy on December 29, 2014, 04:17:19 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn.

Is the stream still up somewhere? Mic always comes across as so ridiculously composed that I'd love to hear him lose his cool!

It was on Adam's stream, but I don't remember what game. Maybe when Adam was commentating games between Mic and Stef after the championship match with DG ended?
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: TrojH on December 29, 2014, 04:36:41 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn. But I've realized that this is an oversimplification: it's actually a Treasure Map that you have to collide with a different non-Treasure-Map card first, which Pillages yourself for one turn but then transforms into the Lab+Village+Scheme. I never really understood how to play Prince properly until I recognized that it's five unrelated cards all at once.

???  ???  ???

That does it. I'm never buying Prince again. Too confusing.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: liopoil on December 29, 2014, 06:08:29 pm
And you can only scheme a card costing up to 4 and it has to be the same card every time (the non-treasure map card). Unless the non-treasure map card is scheme itself.

Also, it costs 8.

Amalloy is making a joke, so let me explain it to you. mic got angry at people for comparing cards as a form of other cards, saying that is a useless approach. Amalloy then further complicated it, using 5 unrelated cards in order to fully capture the effect of prince, doing exactly what mic hates. This was quite funny. Then I went one step further because he still missed an important part of what prince does. That was funny too. So, yeah, upvote plz.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: amalloy on December 29, 2014, 06:55:07 pm
In a way, Prince acts like a level 2 City and a restricted double Scheme.

??? This is so confusing.

Maybe Mic Qsenoch can explain what this means: you should have heard how he reacted on stream when I explained to him that Prince is really just a Lab plus a Village plus a Scheme you don't really control, which you get to play at the beginning of every turn.

Is the stream still up somewhere? Mic always comes across as so ridiculously composed that I'd love to hear him lose his cool!

It was on Adam's stream, but I don't remember what game. Maybe when Adam was commentating games between Mic and Stef after the championship match with DG ended?

Found it: 17:30 of http://www.twitch.tv/adamhorton/c/5642648. It's not really as dramatic as I made it sound, but we get a pretty solid laugh out of Mic.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on December 29, 2014, 07:25:12 pm
I've finally arrived... my laughs are being talked about on the internet.
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: amalloy on December 29, 2014, 07:56:59 pm
I've finally arrived... my laughs are being talked about on the internet.

Will you please sign my copy of How to Become Internet Famous (http://www.wikihow.com/Become-Famous-on-the-Internet)?
Title: Re: Prince
Post by: Awaclus on December 29, 2014, 08:01:33 pm
I've finally arrived... my laughs are being talked about on the internet.

Will you please sign my copy of How to Become Internet Famous (http://www.wikihow.com/Become-Famous-on-the-Internet)?

Not your copy of How to Become #1 on the Leaderboard?