Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: BraveBear on December 17, 2014, 10:31:12 am
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Here's a small 10 card set that you should be able to play with any other set. There really isn't a new theme, just some cards that I believe to be balanced, some new ideas I think, and some simple cards but ones that might cause some tough decisions.
Before I begin testing these cards I would like some feedback on them. Thanks
Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
A card that helps any deck, very versatile. Should make for some interesting decisions in big money games and engines.
Camouflage
(Action) $2
+ 2 actions
You may choose a treasure card from your hand and play it immediately
A village that really helps draw to X and has some interesting plays with trashing and Tactician. I think it should be fine at $2
Fur Hat
(Action/Attack) $3
+ 1 action
+ 1 card
You may gain a copper. If you do so, each player gains a curse
A 3 dollar cantrip curser!?!? Well when you have to gain a copper everytime you give out a curse this becomes a tougher decision.
Deer
(Reaction/Victory) $3
Worth 2 VP
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When one of your cards is trashed you may discard this. If you do +2 actions, +2 cards
I wanted a card that beefs up terminal trashers. Combos with cards like develope and trade route. Not always going to have trashing in the kingdom but should still better used then tunnel. I think it should be pretty balanced because you have to use one of your early buys on it to help you accelerate. Might be a little swingy.
Scope
(Action) $3
Look at the top 2 cards of you deck. You may put one of them back into the supply. Discard the rest. + 1 action for each card you discard this way.
A lookout variant with a bonus. It doesn’t force you to get rid of your good cards and if you need a village you can’t. Some tough decisions later in the game.
Knife
(Action/Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player with 4 or more cards discards 2 cards of the same type.
If the type is Curse/Ruin the player draws 3 cards, Treasure or Action draws 1 card
A discard attack that makes players discard cards of the same type. So its different then miltia and bad in curse/ruin games. Seems strong weak depending on other players strategy
Hunting Camp
(Action ) $4
+2 actions
You may trash a card from your hand.
_______________________________________________
While this is in play if buy a Victory card gain a copper
While this just seems over powered, you better have an end game stragey because your deck could become very clogged very fast. Gardens…….
Rifle
(Action) $5
+3 cards
Choose one : +1 Coin Token or +1 VP token
This sets +3 card variant, pretty simple but could be some tough decisions towards the end game. Might always chose coin token, but dont know.
Moose
(Action) $5
+1 action
Name a card from the supply. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put both those cards back into the supply.
I have no idea if this concept would work or how many problems it could create with the lose track rule but I think it could be really fun. Seems like it could be too powerful maybe idk
Shooting Trophy
(Treasure) $5
+$0
When you buy a victory card gain another copy of it putting it on top of your deck.
I like the idea of a good treasure card that helps you get more green, pretty simple card to add and could be crazy for engines
I haven't gone through all the threads to fine out if some of these ideas have already been done. But anyways let me know what you think, what I can do to improve some of the cards, which ones you would play with, and which ones are duds.
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Deer
(Reaction/Victory) $3
Worth 2 VP
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When one of your cards is trashed you may discard this. If you do +2 actions, +2 cards
This doesn't work because it's really confusing what should happen if one of your cards is trashed when it's not your turn.
Scope
(Action) $3
Look at the top 2 cards of you deck. You may put one of them back into the supply. Discard the rest. + 1 action for each card you discard this way.
A lookout variant with a bonus. It doesn’t force you to get rid of your good cards and if you need a village you can’t. Some tough decisions later in the game.
How does it have tough decisions later in the game? It seems to me later in the game it's basically a Necropolis.
Knife
(Action/Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player with 4 or more cards discards 2 cards of the same type.
If the type is Curse/Ruin the player draws 3 cards, Treasure or Action draws 1 card
This needs some kind of keep-you-honest clause. What does a player do if they have no two cards of the same type in hand?
Moose
(Action) $5
+1 action
Name a card from the supply. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put both those cards back into the supply.
I have no idea if this concept would work or how many problems it could create with the lose track rule but I think it could be really fun. Seems like it could be too powerful maybe idk
1) Yeah, the lose-track rule makes this unworkable—if the cards are anywhere other than your hand during the cleanup phase they don't get returned.
2) Even if it worked as intended, this would be strictly better than Band of Misfits.
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Deer
(Reaction/Victory) $3
Worth 2 VP
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When one of your cards is trashed you may discard this. If you do +2 actions, +2 cards
This doesn't work because it's really confusing what should happen if one of your cards is trashed when it's not your turn.
Scope
(Action) $3
Look at the top 2 cards of you deck. You may put one of them back into the supply. Discard the rest. + 1 action for each card you discard this way.
A lookout variant with a bonus. It doesn’t force you to get rid of your good cards and if you need a village you can’t. Some tough decisions later in the game.
How does it have tough decisions later in the game? It seems to me later in the game it's basically a Necropolis.
Knife
(Action/Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player with 4 or more cards discards 2 cards of the same type.
If the type is Curse/Ruin the player draws 3 cards, Treasure or Action draws 1 card
This needs some kind of keep-you-honest clause. What does a player do if they have no two cards of the same type in hand?
Moose
(Action) $5
+1 action
Name a card from the supply. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put both those cards back into the supply.
I have no idea if this concept would work or how many problems it could create with the lose track rule but I think it could be really fun. Seems like it could be too powerful maybe idk
1) Yeah, the lose-track rule makes this unworkable—if the cards are anywhere other than your hand during the cleanup phase they don't get returned.
2) Even if it worked as intended, this would be strictly better than Band of Misfits.
Deer
I'll change Deer to read on the reaction. "When you trash a card from your hand, +2 actions, +2 cards"
Scope
Yeah I guess I meant at the beginning of the game where you have to decide about being a village or a trasher. The late game it does just skipp and provide actions. How do you like the card though?
Knife
I guess I could say "or reveal a hand with no duplicate card types"
Moose
I think to make Moose "not strickly better the BOM" I need to take away the + 1 action. Then if you dont have any actions left you have to choose money and if you do have actions left then you can choose more cards. I think the lose track rule wont really matter. If you use moose to gain cards into your hand then trash those cards or discard those cards then thats just a way that makes moose awesome. The only way you have to return them is if the card is in your play area or hand at the end of your turn. I think most of the time you are going to be returning the copies. I might have to resrict it to cards of equal value to or less to moose. You can't just put two golds in your hand each turn haha
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
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The only way you have to return them is if the card is in your play area
If it's in your play area, then you don't return it because Moose expects it to be in your hand and then it's not in your hand so Moose loses track of it.
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You'd need some clause about "if that card is in play, return it" except you couldn't verify that it was the same card and of course if you just discarded it with Oasis or something you'd get to keep it. And even if it were somehow all fixed to just function as intended, it wouldn't address the core problem of it being just Band of Misfits hugely buffed for no reason. It's not a salvageable concept.
Also it does not say you can't gain two more Moose.
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Deer
I'll change Deer to read on the reaction. "When you trash a card from your hand, +2 actions, +2 cards"
Still doesn't work; it's possible to trash a card from your hand on someone else's turn.
Scope
Yeah I guess I meant at the beginning of the game where you have to decide about being a village or a trasher. The late game it does just skipp and provide actions. How do you like the card though?
Not that inspiring really? But it could be fine, I guess. Playtest it a lot and see what happens.
Knife
I guess I could say "or reveal a hand with no duplicate card types"
…Meaning if someone has no matching types, they don't have to discard anything at all?
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
Yeah the new moose should look like this.
Moose
(Action) $5
Name a card from the supply that is equal or lesser value then moose. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase if either of those cards are in play or your hand, return them to the supply.
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Deer
I'll change Deer to read on the reaction. "When you trash a card from your hand, +2 actions, +2 cards"
Still doesn't work; it's possible to trash a card from your hand on someone else's turn.
Scope
Yeah I guess I meant at the beginning of the game where you have to decide about being a village or a trasher. The late game it does just skipp and provide actions. How do you like the card though?
Not that inspiring really? But it could be fine, I guess. Playtest it a lot and see what happens.
Knife
I guess I could say "or reveal a hand with no duplicate card types"
…Meaning if someone has no matching types, they don't have to discard anything at all?
Ill have to think on Deer some more, I really want a Reaction/Victory that buffs terminal trashing.
Yes to your Knife question, I really dont think it will come up that often, most of the time you have at least 2 of one type.
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
Yeah the new moose should look like this.
Moose
(Action) $5
Name a card from the supply that is equal or lesser value then moose. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase if either of those cards are in play or your hand, return them to the supply.
If I just gain two Silver this is still almost strictly better than Harvest or Merchant Ship. And this can do much better than Silver most of the time.
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
Yeah the new moose should look like this.
Moose
(Action) $5
Name a card from the supply that is equal or lesser value then moose. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase if either of those cards are in play or your hand, return them to the supply.
If I just gain two Silver this is still almost strictly better than Harvest or Merchant Ship. And this can do much better than Silver most of the time.
Well that can be fixed with the price point bumped to $6 dollars. But the card doesn't seem majorly broken anymore?
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
Yeah the new moose should look like this.
Moose
(Action) $5
Name a card from the supply that is equal or lesser value then moose. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase if either of those cards are in play or your hand, return them to the supply.
If I just gain two Silver this is still almost strictly better than Harvest or Merchant Ship. And this can do much better than Silver most of the time.
Well that can be fixed with the price point bumped to $6 dollars. But the card doesn't seem majorly broken anymore?
I guess the main problem is that it's as good as two kingdom treasure of the same price point. If you restrict it so that it is only able to gain actions, it might be balanced (but I think it should still only be able to gain card worth less than itself. It's kind of stupid if you use Moose to gain 2 Moose, which you then use to.. you get the idea).
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I don't think Moose is salvageable. I guess maybe you could completely overhaul it and turn it into a Treasure card with a Band of Misfits effect but it wouldn't have much point outside of games with Kingdom Treasures or Potions.
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Please try to follow the official cards as much as possible. Look up similar cards to figure out how to word things. At the very least, keep the vanilla bonuses in the correct order. Duck Call looks like a village at first glance because it's supposed to be cards first, then actions. It's actually a Lab variant.
Apologies if some of these points have already been made. I'm not reading others' comments yet.
Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
Donald X once tested a sifting lab variant, "+2 cards, +1 action; Discard a card". It was too strong for $4, but was almost always weaker than Lab because of the discard. Duck Call is very similar to the sifting lab. In context, top-decking is worse than discarding (because multiple Duck Calls will draw the top-decked card) but you do have the additional option of discarding 2 cards, which is sometimes no worse than discarding 1 depending on what's in your hand. Duck Call is probably about as strong as the sifting lab, and therefore too strong for $2. I'd just scrap it outright, but if you are attached to it you pretty much have to test it at no less than $4.
Camouflage
(Action) $2
+ 2 actions
You may choose a treasure card from your hand and play it immediately
I like it. It's a necropolis on many boards, but sometimes it has neat combos. You point out draw-to-X, trashing and Tactician. I don't know what trashing combos you mean (only thing I can think of is saving more cards from Count, which is not usually a concern anyway) but you miss out on the most interesting combo category -- alt treasures. Getting Quarry or Royal Seal in play during the action phase has some fun interactions; you could play Contraband even earlier to keep opponents guessing; you could HoP could gain a card that can be drawn right after, and playing Diadem or Philosopher's Stone earlier means you could get more value out of them and still get to use your extra actions or draw the rest of your deck. Not all of those combos are good combos, but they are interesting.
Fur Hat
(Action/Attack) $3
+ 1 action
+ 1 card
You may gain a copper. If you do so, each player gains a curse
Not sure how it would work out, but my gut says that it would not be fun to play. Cantrip cursing is strong enough that I think I'd have to go for it even with the Copper gain. And then everyone's deck becomes terrible. Even more than Sea Hag, I think this card is just auto-slog, and that's not fun to me. At the very least, I think this should be a $4 card to prevent opening with two of them.
Deer
(Reaction/Victory) $3
Worth 2 VP
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When one of your cards is trashed you may discard this. If you do +2 actions, +2 cards
Doesn't make sense if you trigger it outside of your own turn.
Scope
(Action) $3
Look at the top 2 cards of you deck. You may put one of them back into the supply. Discard the rest. + 1 action for each card you discard this way.
Too similar to Lookout. Less interesting than Lookout because it's perfectly safe. This is just easy "trashing" early game and Necropolis otherwise.
Knife
(Action/Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player with 4 or more cards discards 2 cards of the same type.
If the type is Curse/Ruin the player draws 3 cards, Treasure or Action draws 1 card
Needs accountability clause. What happens if every card is a different type? It's rare, but possible (e.g. Gold, Province, Smithy, Hovel, Curse), and it would be more common with 4 card hands (with Minion, or with the second play of Knife). Do they still have to discard 1? Presumably not.
The discard portion is stronger than Militia, but that's somewhat mitigated by the card draw afterwards.
Do you realize how hilariously terrible this is with Ruins though? It would let the other player draw 4 cards, not just 3, because Ruins are Actions too. :P
Hunting Camp
(Action ) $4
+2 actions
You may trash a card from your hand.
_______________________________________________
While this is in play if buy a Victory card gain a copper
Trashing Necropolis is decent for engines, but the penalty ranges from harsh to manageable to meaningless depending on the payloads and other engine components available. Worth testing.
Rifle
(Action) $5
+3 cards
Choose one : +1 Coin Token or +1 VP token
Not sure, but it seems undercosted to me. Even if it only gave +1 Coin Token, I'd guess that's a $6 card. The choice of a VP token instead is just icing.
Moose
(Action) $5
+1 action
Name a card from the supply. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put both those cards back into the supply.
I'm pretty sure that lose track prevents you from putting the cards back into the supply in the clean-up phase. Even if it didn't, this card is still absolutely ridiculous. Play a Moose to gain two more Mooses. Play one of the new Mooses to gain 2 KC. KC-KC-Moose to gain more Mooses, more KC, then loads of other things and mega-turn off of a single card.
Shooting Trophy
(Treasure) $5
+$0
When you buy a victory card gain another copy of it putting it on top of your deck.
I think this would be too powerful, but I'm not sure.
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Am I missing something with Moose? Can't you get +$6 any time you play it? Or two of whatever the best action is? Buying Moose is like buying two of whatever card is best in the kingdom, for $5. How is that even close to realistic?
Yeah the new moose should look like this.
Moose
(Action) $5
Name a card from the supply that is equal or lesser value then moose. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase if either of those cards are in play or your hand, return them to the supply.
If I just gain two Silver this is still almost strictly better than Harvest or Merchant Ship. And this can do much better than Silver most of the time.
Well that can be fixed with the price point bumped to $6 dollars. But the card doesn't seem majorly broken anymore?
I guess the main problem is that it's as good as two kingdom treasure of the same price point. If you restrict it so that it is only able to gain actions, it might be balanced (but I think it should still only be able to gain card worth less than itself. It's kind of stupid if you use Moose to gain 2 Moose, which you then use to.. you get the idea).
The new versions don't really fix it. Bumping the price to $6 opens up the option to gain key $5 cards. Restricting to action cards doesn't rule out all the various action cards that would usually be superior to Silver anyway. And it is still difficult to track which cards would get returned and which would not. There are even accountability issues with it, even if you specifically say to look for the cards in play:
I play Village, Moose to gain two Conspirators. I play two Conspirators and Vault, discarding everything. Now it is clean-up phase, but I don't have to return these two Conspirators because I actually used Vault to discard the ones that I gained. The two that I played were already in my hand before I played Moose. Really, it's true. But the rules say you're not allowed to look through my discard to check. Just trust me on this.
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Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
Donald X once tested a sifting lab variant, "+2 cards, +1 action; Discard a card". It was too strong for $4, but was almost always weaker than Lab because of the discard. Duck Call is very similar to the sifting lab. In context, top-decking is worse than discarding (because multiple Duck Calls will draw the top-decked card) but you do have the additional option of discarding 2 cards, which is sometimes no worse than discarding 1 depending on what's in your hand. Duck Call is probably about as strong as the sifting lab, and therefore too strong for $2. I'd just scrap it outright, but if you are attached to it you pretty much have to test it at no less than $4.
Hm, really? The two-card sifting alone is almost certainly too weak for $2; does the top-decking option really push that all the way up to 4?
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Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
Donald X once tested a sifting lab variant, "+2 cards, +1 action; Discard a card". It was too strong for $4, but was almost always weaker than Lab because of the discard. Duck Call is very similar to the sifting lab. In context, top-decking is worse than discarding (because multiple Duck Calls will draw the top-decked card) but you do have the additional option of discarding 2 cards, which is sometimes no worse than discarding 1 depending on what's in your hand. Duck Call is probably about as strong as the sifting lab, and therefore too strong for $2. I'd just scrap it outright, but if you are attached to it you pretty much have to test it at no less than $4.
Hm, really? The two-card sifting alone is almost certainly too weak for $2; does the top-decking option really push that all the way up to 4?
You may be misunderstanding. Donald tested this:
Sifting Laboratory
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a card.
This was too strong for $4, and obviously too weak for $5 (compared to Laboratory) and thus it was scrapped. I'm saying that Duck Call is very comparable to the sifting lab, and is probably also too strong for $4 and too weak for $5. I do think that the top-decking is weaker than just discarding, in the context of a drawing card (it slows down multiple plays of the card), so it might work at $4. The discard option bumps it back up slightly.
Edit:
It's from the Secret History of the Dark Ages cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4318.0) (and possibly elsewhere, but this was the first source I found):
There was also a similar card here later, "+2 Cards +1 Action, discard a card," for $4, which ended up being too good.
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Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
Donald X once tested a sifting lab variant, "+2 cards, +1 action; Discard a card". It was too strong for $4, but was almost always weaker than Lab because of the discard. Duck Call is very similar to the sifting lab. In context, top-decking is worse than discarding (because multiple Duck Calls will draw the top-decked card) but you do have the additional option of discarding 2 cards, which is sometimes no worse than discarding 1 depending on what's in your hand. Duck Call is probably about as strong as the sifting lab, and therefore too strong for $2. I'd just scrap it outright, but if you are attached to it you pretty much have to test it at no less than $4.
Hm, really? The two-card sifting alone is almost certainly too weak for $2; does the top-decking option really push that all the way up to 4?
You may be misunderstanding.
I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I just think top-decking in this context is a lot weaker than discarding, and you seem to think it's only a bit weaker than discarding.
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Duck Call
(Action) $2
+ 1 action
+ 2 cards
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
Donald X once tested a sifting lab variant, "+2 cards, +1 action; Discard a card". It was too strong for $4, but was almost always weaker than Lab because of the discard. Duck Call is very similar to the sifting lab. In context, top-decking is worse than discarding (because multiple Duck Calls will draw the top-decked card) but you do have the additional option of discarding 2 cards, which is sometimes no worse than discarding 1 depending on what's in your hand. Duck Call is probably about as strong as the sifting lab, and therefore too strong for $2. I'd just scrap it outright, but if you are attached to it you pretty much have to test it at no less than $4.
Hm, really? The two-card sifting alone is almost certainly too weak for $2; does the top-decking option really push that all the way up to 4?
You may be misunderstanding.
I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I just think top-decking in this context is a lot weaker than discarding, and you seem to think it's only a bit weaker than discarding.
Ah, OK. Yeah, I just don't think the top-decking with the option of discarding 2 would work out to be that much worse. Sometimes it's helpful when you can save a card you don't need now for the next turn. But maybe I was a bit too hasty in saying that it had to be tested at $4.
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Well, without the topdecking option it's (almost) strictly worse than Warehouse but still compares a bit favourably with Cellar (except when you have more than 2 junk cards in your hand when playing Cellar). The topdecking option is what elevates this above 2$ for sure. I'm not sold on whether it's actually worth more than 3$, though - especially when compared to Warehouse (allthough Warehouse of course is a pretty decent 3$).
Pricing aside, i like the idea of the card, bear person.
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I dunno if Deer is good overall, but I don't see any problems with the possibility of getting +2 cards, +2 actions when it's not your turn. It seems clear to me that the +2 actions simply go to waste. A FAQ could clarify this, but I think the official rules would already make it clear... you start your turn with 1 action, so any actions you earned before the start of your turn would go to waste.. just like actions that you earned on your last turn but didn't use.
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Yes to your Knife question, I really dont think it will come up that often, most of the time you have at least 2 of one type.
It would be extremely rare to not have at least 2 of a type. If you have 5 cards in hand, it's already impossible unless one of those 5 cards in Hovel; as every card is either Treasure, Victory, Action, or Curse. Anyway, it's probably better to only attack players with 5 or more, not 4 or more. Otherwise, it's really harsh to play Knife after playing either Minion or Urchin (or Pillage).
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I don't think Moose is savable... but if it were, the lose track rule could be dealt with like this:
"Name a card (maybe name a card costing less than Moose, etc). Gain 2 copies of the named card, putting them into your hand. During your cleanup phase this turn, return 2 copies of the named card to the supply from in play or from your hand."
So you aren't trying to return the exact same cards... you just have to return 2 copies of it, whether you get them from in play or from your hand. If you use it on one-shots, or discard the cards to Vault, etc, then they aren't returned to the supply. There's still an accountability issue, which could be fixed with a "reveal your hand" clause.
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Horse Traders offered a way to make a Reaction get paused until your turn; couldn't Deer work the same way?
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Horse Traders offered a way to make a Reaction get paused until your turn; couldn't Deer work the same way?
If you use the Horse Traders wording, it wouldn't produce the intended result when you trigger it on your own turn. If you write it to account for both possibilities, it's probably getting too complicated for what it is.
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Deer could also be easily worded to only work on your own turn. "When one of your cards is trashed during your turn..."
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Okay so I have taken the comments into account. I have modified them accordingly. Moose is still in the mix. I just still think it has life!!
Duck Call
(Action) $3
+ 2 cards
+ 1 action
Choose one: Discard 2 cards or put a card on the top of your deck
So this one makes the testing group at $3 dollars now. Some comments have said 4 but I think you’ll find that loading up on these isn’t the best strategy so I think its fine at $3. We will see
Camouflage
(Action) $2
+ 2 actions
You may choose a treasure card from your hand and play it immediately
Test as is
Fur Hat
(Action/Looter) $5
+ 1 card
+ 1 action
Each other player gains a ruins. You can’t buy this if you do not have any cards costing 3 or more in play. When you buy this trash any cards costing 3 or more that you have in play.
So I scrapped the copper gaining idea because of the sloggy nature of this card. This card comes at a price. I changed it to ruins because there is already a cantrip curse card. Also I changed it to 5 so you have to trash. It’s a little wordy which I don’t like but the idea of having to trash all of your good cards to buy this or at least trash your opening silver might prevent you from ever getting another fur hat. I would like to see if there is a way to get the wording down.
Deer
(Reaction/Victory) $3
Worth 2 VP
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When one of your cards is trashed you may discard this. If you do +3 cards.
This still buffs early trashing because you might be able to draw more and buy more and it defends against knights and swindler which I like.
Scope
(Action) $3
Look at the top 2 cards of you deck. You may put one of them back into the supply. Discard the rest. + 1 action for each card you discard this way.
Will play test this way.
Knife
(Action/Attack) $4
+$2
Each other player discards 2 cards of the same type. If a player discards two victory cards, trash this.
A better attack but could be trashed the first time you play it, rewards players for keeping estates, I think this change has completely changed the complexity of this card. Unless I am missing some glaring problem I would like to test this.
Hunting Camp
(Action ) $4
+2 actions
You may trash a card from your hand.
_______________________________________________
While this is in play if buy a Victory card gain a copper
Will test this as is
Rifle
(Action) $5
+2 cards
Choose one : +1 Coin Token or +1 card
This card was said to be over powered and the VP token to be boring so I give the player the option. Underpowered now?
Moose
(Action) $6
Name a card from the supply that costs 5 or less. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put 2 cards with that same name back into the supply.
I am really trying to make moose work. I hope this doesn’t turn into the next bomb. Looking at this card now you cant gain more moose, you have to use an action, the cards don’t have to be the ones you gained that turn, if you don’t have two copies of that card in play then you return as many as you can. If you discard them or trash them then more power to you.
Shooting Trophy
(Treasure) $5
+$0
When you buy a victory card gain another copy of it putting it on top of your deck.
Will test as is
EDIT:Changed "Fur Hat" to a looter card
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Should I edit my first post with the updated cards from now on? Is that better for people coming in late and wanting to comment without searching through the thread? Or will that screw up all the comments so far?
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Should I edit my first post with the updated cards from now on? Is that better for people coming in late and wanting to comment without searching through the thread? Or will that screw up all the comments so far?
If you edit your first post, please leave the original version of the cards somewhere in the edit, otherwise the comments become really confusing. You can either have a section in the first post for all the originals, or you can simply put the fixed version of each card after the original one.
Fur Hat needs to have the "Looter" type, otherwise there are no Ruins in the game. It sounds really weak to me now, but I could be wrong. Losing a Silver to get one is probably ok.
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I am really trying to make moose work. I hope this doesn’t turn into the next bomb.
Pretty sure if this were going to turn into the next bomb, by now you would have been questioning our understanding of the game while lecturing us on the virtues of your theme. :)
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For the new Moose...
Recommend having "costing less than this" instead of "costing 5 or less". That way you can't Moose a Moose after playing a Highway. Even though it's now terminal, allowing you to Moose a Moose could still become really messy / bad.
Also for the wording to work, I think you have to specify where the cards are being returned from... I assume you want the player to have to return them whether they are in play or in their hand.
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For the new Moose...
Recommend having "costing less than this" instead of "costing 5 or less". That way you can't Moose a Moose after playing a Highway. Even though it's now terminal, allowing you to Moose a Moose could still become really messy / bad.
Also for the wording to work, I think you have to specify where the cards are being returned from... I assume you want the player to have to return them whether they are in play or in their hand.
Yeah I guess I was thinking you would need a lot of actions to preform a moose of a moose and have a highway or bridge so it would rarely come up. However I don't see the harm in changed it to "costing less than this"
Moose
(Action) $6
Name a card from the supply costing less than this. Gain two copies of that card putting them into your hand. During your clean up phase put 2 cards with that same name from play or your hand back into the supply.
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You still need accountability for the case where the cards are (possibly) in your hand, and clarity on what happens if you have exactly one in play and one in your hand, which is hard to do without the text being too long. How about this:
Moose
(Action) $6
Gain 2 copies of a card costing less than this, putting them into your hand. At the start of Clean-up phase this turn, reveal your hand and return 2 copies of the gained card, from play and/or your hand, to the Supply.
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You still need accountability for the case where the cards are (possibly) in your hand, and clarity on what happens if you have exactly one in play and one in your hand, which is hard to do without the text being too long. How about this:
Moose
(Action) $6
Gain 2 copies of a card costing less than this, putting them into your hand. At the start of Clean-up phase this turn, reveal your hand and return 2 copies of the gained card, from play and/or your hand, to the Supply.
This sounds ok. Though I'm also ok with the idea of not having accountability sometimes. Throne Room doesn't have it ,and although I know Donald has said that Throne Room would be different if created today; a couple other things like Graverobber don't have it also. I was never big on the accountability thing... the card says "return 2 copies from your hand or in play", so if you have the ability to do so, but don't do so, you are cheating. You shouldn't need to "prove" that you aren't cheating. The game rules are written with the assumption that you aren't going to cheat.
Plus, players should know if you still have the cards in your hand, most of the time. Most of the time you won't have played Celler / Warehouse / etc afterwards, so if you didn't discard any cards then players know they're still in your hand... and if you did discard some cards, then you could have just as easily have discarded your Moose cards anyway. So you would have had to have first chosen to not discarded your Moose cards, even though you got no extra advantage out of discarding whatever else you did instead, and then decided later that you didn't want to return your Moose cards to the supply, so you lie and say that they were in the discarded cards. Sure there's edge cases where you might want to do that, but it's not the normal situation. I'm ok with trusting players to not cheat in the edge cases where such things matter. That's what Graverobber does.
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Rubby's wording is good. That being said, Moose is still problematic. I think it's probably just too broken with stuff like Feast and Mining Village. And it's super-wonky in general.
I think Camouflage is too narrow to be worthwhile. There just aren't enough combos for it, and it's super weak without them. Hunting Camp seems super-ultra-weak.
I like Duck Call pretty well. I disagree with eHalcyon that it's obviously too strong for $2; it might work fine at that cost. Worth testing.
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Here's a weird thing about terminal Moose... in a game with no Villages at all, it simply can't be used. Any time you play it, you'll just get 2 cards that you can never play nor get out of your hand in any way, so they'll just go back. I dunno what percentage of games have no Village (including TR/KC/Procession), but it's worth considering.
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I like Duck Call pretty well. I disagree with eHalcyon that it's obviously too strong for $2; it might work fine at that cost. Worth testing.
I really think it needs to be compared to Donald's never-made Lab variant. If +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card is too strong for $4, then I don't see how this card can be anything but $4... it just seems like a little weaker version of the same thing. Put it this way... if you have a whole bunch of them in your deck, then you should be able to get pretty much any 3-5 card hand you want for that turn. So as long as you have a couple Golds in your deck, that should be a Province every turn. And Gold-Gold-Silver is hardly the best 3-5 card hand you can come up with.
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If Camouflage is way too weak, what about allowing you to play any number of treasures from your hand instead of just 1? It's still limited to the same combos, meaning that it's still not useful most of the time, but it would be better when it is useful, and much better with draw-to-x.
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This sounds ok. Though I'm also ok with the idea of not having accountability sometimes. Throne Room doesn't have it ,and although I know Donald has said that Throne Room would be different if created today; a couple other things like Graverobber don't have it also. I was never big on the accountability thing... the card says "return 2 copies from your hand or in play", so if you have the ability to do so, but don't do so, you are cheating. You shouldn't need to "prove" that you aren't cheating. The game rules are written with the assumption that you aren't going to cheat.
It's not just about dishonesty; people often "cheat" unintentionally. I think avoiding reliance on people calling penalties on themselves is just better game design.
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Here's a weird thing about terminal Moose... in a game with no Villages at all, it simply can't be used. Any time you play it, you'll just get 2 cards that you can never play nor get out of your hand in any way, so they'll just go back. I dunno what percentage of games have no Village (including TR/KC/Procession), but it's worth considering.
It isn't limited to just actions. So it is a terminal $4 by picking up 2 silvers, or too coppers for a terminal $2.
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Rubby's wording is good. That being said, Moose is still problematic. I think it's probably just too broken with stuff like Feast and Mining Village. And it's super-wonky in general.
I can see it being wonky (e.g. with durations and stuff), but I'm not sure that it's completely broken. It requires village support for those combos. Yes, it can be super-awesome, but it's not very easy to make it super-awesome. Probably worth testing.
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Here's a weird thing about terminal Moose... in a game with no Villages at all, it simply can't be used. Any time you play it, you'll just get 2 cards that you can never play nor get out of your hand in any way, so they'll just go back. I dunno what percentage of games have no Village (including TR/KC/Procession), but it's worth considering.
It isn't limited to just actions. So it is a terminal $4 by picking up 2 silvers, or too coppers for a terminal $2.
Oh right, duh.
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I like Duck Call pretty well. I disagree with eHalcyon that it's obviously too strong for $2; it might work fine at that cost. Worth testing.
I really think it needs to be compared to Donald's never-made Lab variant. If +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card is too strong for $4, then I don't see how this card can be anything but $4... it just seems like a little weaker version of the same thing. Put it this way... if you have a whole bunch of them in your deck, then you should be able to get pretty much any 3-5 card hand you want for that turn. So as long as you have a couple Golds in your deck, that should be a Province every turn. And Gold-Gold-Silver is hardly the best 3-5 card hand you can come up with.
This isn't really true though, with a whole bunch of them in your deck, you get to pick the best 5 cards out of the top 6 non-Duck Call cards in your deck. Putting that card back on top of your deck makes it impossible to get to more than 6 non-Duck Call cards without reducing your hand size. I think this card is more of a Courtyard/Warehouse hybrid (with 1 card less draw) than Donald's Sifting lab.
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I like Duck Call pretty well. I disagree with eHalcyon that it's obviously too strong for $2; it might work fine at that cost. Worth testing.
I really think it needs to be compared to Donald's never-made Lab variant. If +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card is too strong for $4, then I don't see how this card can be anything but $4... it just seems like a little weaker version of the same thing. Put it this way... if you have a whole bunch of them in your deck, then you should be able to get pretty much any 3-5 card hand you want for that turn. So as long as you have a couple Golds in your deck, that should be a Province every turn. And Gold-Gold-Silver is hardly the best 3-5 card hand you can come up with.
As stated before, i really disagree here. Don't compare it to Lab. Compare it to Warehouse. If Warehouse is okay for 3$, small Warehouse should definitely be fine at that price point (3$). The top-decking is just enough to make up for the fact that Warehouse has 150% of Duck Calls sifting capacity.
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Duck Call at $3 sounds like it's a little too weak.
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Moose contradicts Nomad Camp--how do you gain something to your hand and deck at the same time? Also, if this got added to Goko and you accidentally revealed Watchtower, it would blow the program's mind.
It also is broken with Ill-Gotten Gains in the Kingdom--and gets crazy with King's Court. It also makes 3-piling ridiculously easy with King's Court and Watchtower, but maybe that's a feature, not a bug. It also has a crazy combo with Secret Chamber--but anything that improves Secret Chamber is probably worth pursuing.
Fur Hat--would it be better to just make it cost $6, and then read, "When you gain this, trash a card that you have in play that is not a Copper." That way, you still can't buy it on Turn 1 and 2, and this also limits your ability to Remodel into it (since Silvers won't be in play in your action phase). Or maybe you should have this trash a Treasure that is not a Copper?
Deer--needs to say "discard this from your hand." But it seems like it compares very unfavorably to Market Square, because most of the time it will draw dead. It combos great with cantrip trashers--but how often do you have one of those, plus a Village, plus Deer, in your hand? Sure, it's great against Knights/Saboteur/Swindler--but Knights and Saboteur have pretty weak attacks to begin with. And even then, in many cases you'd rather have the Gold than the 3 cards.
Shooting Trophy--needs to have "When this is in play". But it looks like it would either be awesome or terrible--because it's pretty much worse than Duchy until you start greening, and it can't gain itself, like Horn of Plenty. Is it OP with dual-type Victory cards, though? And is it too powerful with Gardens/Silk Road/Feodum?
Rifle--The value of coin tokens is that you don't have to spend them on the current turn. But in most engines, you don't want your Smithy to be the last card you play--you want to finish with a coin-producer, like Horse Traders, Merchant Ship/Guild, etc. Rifle is either an expensive Smithy or one that is designed to be terminal--neither of which fits your typical engine as well as the cheaper Smithy. That's why there isn't a card in Dominion that gives +2 cards, +1 coin.
Knife is OK in 2 player, terrible in multi-player, where the risk of trashing it is much higher. I'm not sure that the minor reward of getting someone to discard 2 coppers is worth the risk of a wasted early buy. Later on, it's pretty much identical to Militia.
Scope--is almost strictly superior to Lighthouse. It's probably OP at $3.
Camouflage--I like GendoIkari's change.
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Moose contradicts Nomad Camp--how do you gain something to your hand and deck at the same time? Also, if this got added to Goko and you accidentally revealed Watchtower, it would blow the program's mind.
It also is broken with Ill-Gotten Gains in the Kingdom--and gets crazy with King's Court. It also makes 3-piling ridiculously easy with King's Court and Watchtower, but maybe that's a feature, not a bug. It also has a crazy combo with Secret Chamber--but anything that improves Secret Chamber is probably worth pursuing.
Fur Hat--would it be better to just make it cost $6, and then read, "When you gain this, trash a card that you have in play that is not a Copper." That way, you still can't buy it on Turn 1 and 2, and this also limits your ability to Remodel into it (since Silvers won't be in play in your action phase). Or maybe you should have this trash a Treasure that is not a Copper?
Deer--needs to say "discard this from your hand." But it seems like it compares very unfavorably to Market Square, because most of the time it will draw dead. It combos great with cantrip trashers--but how often do you have one of those, plus a Village, plus Deer, in your hand? Sure, it's great against Knights/Saboteur/Swindler--but Knights and Saboteur have pretty weak attacks to begin with. And even then, in many cases you'd rather have the Gold than the 3 cards.
Shooting Trophy--needs to have "When this is in play". But it looks like it would either be awesome or terrible--because it's pretty much worse than Duchy until you start greening, and it can't gain itself, like Horn of Plenty. Is it OP with dual-type Victory cards, though? And is it too powerful with Gardens/Silk Road/Feodum?
Rifle--The value of coin tokens is that you don't have to spend them on the current turn. But in most engines, you don't want your Smithy to be the last card you play--you want to finish with a coin-producer, like Horse Traders, Merchant Ship/Guild, etc. Rifle is either an expensive Smithy or one that is designed to be terminal--neither of which fits your typical engine as well as the cheaper Smithy. That's why there isn't a card in Dominion that gives +2 cards, +1 coin.
Knife is OK in 2 player, terrible in multi-player, where the risk of trashing it is much higher. I'm not sure that the minor reward of getting someone to discard 2 coppers is worth the risk of a wasted early buy. Later on, it's pretty much identical to Militia.
Scope--is almost strictly superior to Lighthouse. It's probably OP at $3.
Camouflage--I like GendoIkari's change.
Moose
I'm starting to think moose is not worth the trouble.
Deer
I agree deer isn't as good without the + actions but I can't seem to find away around that being confusing when one of your cards is trashed and its not your turn
Shooting Trophy
I mean I will know after testing but its still more exciting then most of the $5 treasure cards already in print.
Rifle
Yeah I mean I was trying to make a simple +3 cards but I understand that +cards/+coins is kinda taboo, will go back to the drawing board on this one.
Knife
Its just my gut, but I think knife will be a high skill, high swingy, interesting card, its stackable like torturer but can be trashed pretty easily if you are not careful.
Scope
It is pretty similar to lookout, maybe I can tweak it so that it doesn't turn into a $3 necro later in the game.
Camouflage
I like the change also.
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I like that change to "fur hat" also! It takes a lot of the wordyiss out of it.
Fur Hat
(Action/Looter) $5
+1 card
+1 action
Each other player gains a ruin. When you buy this trash a card in play that is not a copper.
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Okay now that I have some cards that might work now I am going to add the new mechanic to my fan set that will be the backbone of Hunting. Along with 15 new cards. I’m not sure if this idea has been thrown around so please let me know if I’m completely unintentionally ripping someone off.
Since coin tokens are so easily acceptable. Why not have cards that produce tokens for the other major mechanics of the game. Draw Token, Action Token, Buy Token. Draw and Action Tokens can be used anytime during your action phase and Buy Tokens can be used just like coin tokens.
So onto the cards.
Rabbit
(Action) $2
+1 action
Take a buy token
Walking Stick
(Action) $2
+1 card
Discard any number of cards. +1 action per card discarded
Set up: Each player takes 2 draw tokens.
Bear Trap
(Action/Attack) $3
+1 action
+1 draw token
You may spend draw tokens. Each other player discards 1 card per draw token spent this way.
Cross Bow
(Action) $3
Trash a card from your hand. Take draw tokens equal to the price of the card.
Old Hunter
(Action) $3
Take an action token
While this is in play when you spend an action token, +1 card
Deer Blind
(Action) $4
$3
+2 actions
Take a buy token
-$1 for every buy token you have to a minimum of $0
Out House
(Action)$4
+1 card
+2 actions
While this is in play you may use buy tokens as draw tokens.
When you buy this each player takes a buy token.
Bullet
(Treasure)$0
Worth 1$ per draw token you have
(This is not in the supply)
Rifle
(Action) $5
Take 2 draw tokens
Gain a Bullet
Moose
(Action/Attack) $5
+$2
Each player discards their hand and takes 3 draw tokens
Mountain
(Action/Victory) $5
Worth 1VP per draw tokens you have
When you discard this or trash this take 2 draw tokens.
Wood Stove
(Action) $6
Take a draw token
Take an action token
You may trash cards from your hand equal to the number of draw tokens you have.
Elephant
(Action) $7
You may play an action card from your hand up to as many action tokens you have.
While this is in play when you buy a card take an action token.
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Okay now that I have some cards that might work now I am going to add the new mechanic to my fan set that will be the backbone of Hunting. Along with 15 new cards. I’m not sure if this idea has been thrown around so please let me know if I’m completely unintentionally ripping someone off.
Since coin tokens are so easily acceptable. Why not have cards that produce tokens for the other major mechanics of the game. Draw Token, Action Token, Buy Token. Draw and Action Tokens can be used anytime during your action phase and Buy Tokens can be used just like coin tokens.
So onto the cards.
Rabbit
(Action) $2
+1 action
Take a buy token
Buy tokens are simply not very good. At least make it +2 Actions
Walking Stick
(Action) $2
+1 card
Discard any number of cards. +1 action per card discarded
Set up: Each player takes 2 draw tokens.
Very underpowered-needs to discard 2 cards to be as good as a village, and need to discard almost your entire hand to be much better than it. It also infringes on Hamlet's space. Maybe make it give +2 cards instead of +1. Then it would certainly be good enough, maybe OP? You can test that, though; as it is it's basically worthless.
Bear Trap
(Action/Attack) $3
+1 action
+1 draw token
You may spend draw tokens. Each other player discards 1 card per draw token spent this way.
This can lead to pins rather easily. Maybe make it be a minimum of 3 cards left in hand.
Cross Bow
(Action) $3
Trash a card from your hand. Take draw tokens equal to the price of the card.
Very similar to Apprentice, but much cheaper and gives draw tokens. It doesn't give +1 action, which is a big deal, but there's a large chance this is too powerful.
Old Hunter
(Action) $3
Take an action token.
While this is in play when you spend an action token, +1 card
Good
Deer Blind
(Action) $4
+$3
+2 actions
Take a buy token
-$1 for every buy token you have to a minimum of $0
Good concept, probably a little too good (compare to Festival)
Out House
(Action)$4
+1 card
+2 actions
While this is in play you may use buy tokens as draw tokens.
When you buy this each player takes a buy token.
Good, I think
Bullet
(Treasure)$0
Worth 1$ per draw token you have
(This is not in the supply)
Rifle
(Action) $5
Take 2 draw tokens
Gain a Bullet.
needs testing - more likely on the good side, nice and simple design, though
Moose
(Action/Attack) $5
+$2
Each player discards their hand and takes 3 draw tokens.
This is fun; it's about as good as militia, though, so $4 would be better or a boost in power.
Mountain
(Action/Victory) $5
Worth 1VP per draw tokens you have
When you discard this or trash this take 2 draw tokens.
completely OP - Just buy tons of these and you get into a situation which has the problem that monument avoids by giving money: people just want to do nothing.
Wood Stove
(Action) $6
Take a draw token
Take an action token
You may trash cards from your hand equal to the number of draw tokens you have.
Probably too weak since it's $6. It would fit at $5, I think, though.
Elephant
(Action) $7
You may play an action card from your hand up to as many action tokens you have.
While this is in play when you buy a card take an action token.
Comments above.
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There are a lot of cards, so I won't bother quoting them. I'll just copy and paste the text...
On the general concept of draw (man, that should be "card token" for consistency), action and buy tokens -- I think it's OK, but not really that exciting. It's not quite a novel concept since it's so similar to coin tokens, and most fans have already considered the possibility of such tokens.
The bigger issue is that this requires so many more extra components that won't really see use in most games. One thought I've had (and not posted) is to switch to personal player boards instead of tokens. Each player would have a board that would track saved cards/actions/coins/buys. If you gain a "token", you move the marker up on your board. If you spend a "token", you move the marker down. Spinners might be even better than a board.
Rabbit
(Action) $2
+1 action
Take a buy token
XerxesPraelor commented that Buy tokens aren't very good. I disagree. The main effect of tokenizing vanilla bonuses is to make them more consistent. If you have a coin token, you smooth out your purchasing power. If you have a buy token, you can be sure to have +Buy when you need it (i.e. when you have enough money that you want to buy two things). Buy tokens are weaker when you can draw your entire deck, but this is not the usual case. Rabbit is probably good enough to support a middling engine with just 1 or 2 copies. Rabbit is fine for $2.
Walking Stick
(Action) $2
+1 card
Discard any number of cards. +1 action per card discarded
Set up: Each player takes 2 draw tokens.
Is this supposed to be "+1 action token"? If not, it is ridiculously weak. Since the draw token thing is just for setup, it doesn't factor into the card's power level. I'd also note that having card tokens on setup makes the opening swingier. You can draw extra cards on turn 1 to get a chance of playing your opening buy on turn 2. That can be HUGE.
XP's suggestion of making it +2 cards does, in fact, make it OP. At that point, the card would be strictly superior to Donald's sifting lab (+2 cards, +1 action, discard a card) which was too strong for $4.
Bear Trap
(Action/Attack) $3
+1 action
+1 draw token
You may spend draw tokens. Each other player discards 1 card per draw token spent this way.
The wording is a little ambiguous. If you spend draw tokens for this card, do you get to draw cards as well? You could try Butcher's wording of "pay any number of [coin/draw] tokens", though it's a little strange. Or you could go with "return any number of draw tokens". Also, "+1 draw token" should be written out as "Take a Draw token".
This card definitely needs a clause to prevent pins. If that is added, then I think the card is OK.
Cross Bow
(Action) $3
Trash a card from your hand. Take draw tokens equal to the price of the card.
Ehhhh. Pretty sure this is too strong. It's comparable to Apprentice. The utility of saved tokens more than makes up for the loss of +1 action. Draw tokens let you draw non-terminally on their own.
Old Hunter
(Action) $3
Take an action token
While this is in play when you spend an action token, +1 card
Tough to evaluate. At first, this seems pretty weak. If you immediately use the token, it's just a cantrip that does nothing else. Oh, but if you stack them, then the second one is a Lab, and the third one is even better... huh, maybe it's actually too powerful. Yeah, with the third play, it's like all three were Labs on their own. It just gets better if there are other cards that grant action tokens too. I think a stacking card like this would be too powerful for $3 already, even without the option of saving the tokens for the future. I think this would have to be $4 at least, maybe even $5.
Deer Blind
(Action) $4
$3
+2 actions
Take a buy token
-$1 for every buy token you have to a minimum of $0
To clarify, is the -$1 like Poor House, or is it mean to be cost reduction? The cost reduction version would be stupidly overpowered, so I will assume that it's an actual subtraction.
Is the $3 there supposed to be +$3? I will assume so, because you already have a card cost of $4 above that, and it says +$3 in the quote in XP's post. Not sure why you deleted the + in an edit though.
This is almost strictly superior to Festival even though it costs less. The first play is equivalent to Festival if you always spend your Buy token. The fact that it is a savable Buy token makes it even better (it gives you a choice over Festival).
The only way Festival beats it is if you play multiples on the same turn, since you can't spend the Buy token until the Buy phase (the effect is also weakened if you started your turn with Buy tokens, but that would have been a choice on your part so it isn't really a weakness of Deer Blind compared to Festival).
Given that, I think it should probably cost $5.
Out House
(Action)$4
+1 card
+2 actions
While this is in play you may use buy tokens as draw tokens.
When you buy this each player takes a buy token.
Sounds OK.
Bullet
(Treasure)$0
Worth 1$ per draw token you have
(This is not in the supply)
Rifle
(Action) $5
Take 2 draw tokens
Gain a Bullet
Sounds incredibly overpowered. A basic strategy is clear -- buy multiple Rifles, accumulate draw tokens. Always keep a minimum of 8 Draw tokens. Each single Bullet is enough to buy a Province, and Rifle lets you gain more and more of them. Once you've accumulated enough draw tokens, you can spend the excess to cycle and draw more bullets into your hand.
In practice, it's better. You don't need to keep 8 Draw tokens -- keeping 4 makes Bullet better than Gold, and that's probably enough to buy Province with whatever else is in your hand. It also opens up really simple mega-turn strategies with any +Buy cards, where you just accumulate draw tokens until each single Bullet is worth a fortune on its own.
Not to mention, Rifle without Bullet is still pretty close to on par with Laboratory. You don't get the Lab effect on the turn it is played, but you can save it for any turn after that.
The primary fix should be to put a cap on how much coin a Bullet can generate. Maybe make Bullets temporary in the same way as Spoils. Maybe requiring you to pay the draw tokens for each Bullet.
Moose
(Action/Attack) $5
+$2
Each player discards their hand and takes 3 draw tokens
Just realized that you are duplicating names. There was already a previous card named Moose, and a previous one named Rifle too.
I think this card is good to test as is. If the opponents spend all 3 tokens to draw back 3 cards, the attack is much stronger than Militia. It's a more brutal Minion. This is counterbalanced by the fact that the other player could keep some or all of those card tokens. If they just skip their empty hand turn, they could spend the 3 tokens later to make it almost like a Tactician turn. Doesn't need a power boost or lower price, unless testing suggests otherwise.
Mountain
(Action/Victory) $5
Worth 1VP per draw tokens you have
When you discard this or trash this take 2 draw tokens.
When you discard this? As phrased, that would include discarding during clean-up phase, which means that it non-terminally gains 2VP per copy of Mountain. That's just ridiculously good.
If you mean for it to be like Tunnel, then the card is pretty much useless on boards without discarding effects or another draw token card. The trashing effect is not good enough to warrant a $5 opportunity cost (on top of having to line it up with the trasher later).
Wood Stove
(Action) $6
Take a draw token
Take an action token
You may trash cards from your hand equal to the number of draw tokens you have.
I think this is OK. Maybe it could be $5, but I think it's very reasonable to test at $6. The flexibility of tokens should make the effect better than Junk Dealer most of the time.
As written, if you choose to trash, you have to trash exactly the number of draw tokens you have. That means that if you had 4 draw tokens, you would have to trash 0 or 4, no in between. Is that your intention? I think it's probably fine either way (at worse, you just have to spend a few draw tokens before you play the card, if you don't want to trash too many cards).
Elephant
(Action) $7
You may play an action card from your hand up to as many action tokens you have.
While this is in play when you buy a card take an action token.
If there are other action token cards on the board, this is ridiculously overpowered. It quickly becomes better than King's Court.
If there is +Buy readily available, this is ridiculously overpowered. You can quickly ramp it up to be better than King's Court.
If there are no +Buy or action card token cards available, the power level depends on how quickly you can ramp it up. If you can get multiple copies, all the better. It stacks like Goons and Merchant Guild, so you can ramp it up pretty quickly that way. The opportunity cost is well worth it for an uber King's Court.
It's worth noting that it becomes very difficult to track with action token cards. Suppose I have 3 action tokens. I play Elephant(A) and choose to play another Elephant(B). Since I have 3 action tokens, I get to play Elephant(B) thrice. For my first play, I choose to play Old Hunter. I get to play it thrice. The result is that I take 3 action tokens in total. But hey -- now I have 5 action tokens. Does that mean I get to play Old Hunter more times? No, because the number was locked in when I played Elephant(B), but this will probably confuse some people.
Anyway, I now play Elephant(B) for the second time... and now it lets me choose to play a card 5 times. Now I play Elephant(C). I play various other cards many, many times. Eventually I go back to evaluate the third play of Elephant(B), and then I'm confused. Do I have a fourth play of Elephant(B)? How many action tokens did I have back when Elephant(A) was played? Wait, in that chain, how many times did I play Market with Elephant(C), and how many times did I play Village with Elephant(D) which came in at some other part of the chain? How many coins and buys and actions do I have now?
What I'm getting at is that an unbounded King's Court is pretty much insane.
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Rabbit
(Action) $2
+1 action
Take a buy token
XerxesPraelor commented that Buy tokens aren't very good. I disagree. The main effect of tokenizing vanilla bonuses is to make them more consistent. If you have a coin token, you smooth out your purchasing power. If you have a buy token, you can be sure to have +Buy when you need it (i.e. when you have enough money that you want to buy two things). Buy tokens are weaker when you can draw your entire deck, but this is not the usual case. Rabbit is probably good enough to support a middling engine with just 1 or 2 copies. Rabbit is fine for $2.
Even with your arguments that buy tokens can be pretty good, are you suggesting that they are much better than coin tokens? Because if buy tokens are as good as coin tokens, this card is a worse version of Candlestick Maker, and should have +$1 to make it balanced. If buy tokens are a little worse than coin tokens, then this card is a much worse version of Candlestick Maker. If buy tokens are better than coin tokens, then they need to be so much better that it's worth not getting +$1 here...
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The thing with +buy tokens is that either it's on a card whose only purpose is to give you those tokens and you buy it late when you need the tokens and then it functions exactly like a normal +buy, or it's on a card that you want early anyway and later you'll have 2394965034651283749576 tokens that you don't really need. I think the idea of a +buy token is most interesting as a "vanilla" bonus on one-shot cards.
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Rabbit
(Action) $2
+1 action
Take a buy token
XerxesPraelor commented that Buy tokens aren't very good. I disagree. The main effect of tokenizing vanilla bonuses is to make them more consistent. If you have a coin token, you smooth out your purchasing power. If you have a buy token, you can be sure to have +Buy when you need it (i.e. when you have enough money that you want to buy two things). Buy tokens are weaker when you can draw your entire deck, but this is not the usual case. Rabbit is probably good enough to support a middling engine with just 1 or 2 copies. Rabbit is fine for $2.
Even with your arguments that buy tokens can be pretty good, are you suggesting that they are much better than coin tokens? Because if buy tokens are as good as coin tokens, this card is a worse version of Candlestick Maker, and should have +$1 to make it balanced. If buy tokens are a little worse than coin tokens, then this card is a much worse version of Candlestick Maker. If buy tokens are better than coin tokens, then they need to be so much better that it's worth not getting +$1 here...
Those are good points, but I don't think the conclusions are correct. I don't think coin tokens and buy tokens are directly comparable, and I don't think you can use CSM to justify the cost one way or the other. I think 1 buy token can make a bigger difference than 1 coin token (especially with no other reliable +Buy), but coin tokens are probably better in general. Even if CSM is better than Rabbit most of the time, it does not mean that Rabbit needs to be buffed. After all, Wharf is a lot better than Counting House.
The thing with +buy tokens is that either it's on a card whose only purpose is to give you those tokens and you buy it late when you need the tokens and then it functions exactly like a normal +buy, or it's on a card that you want early anyway and later you'll have 2394965034651283749576 tokens that you don't really need. I think the idea of a +buy token is most interesting as a "vanilla" bonus on one-shot cards.
I think the way to go would be to get one copy early and just accumulate +Buy. You won't need them early, but later you'll have a moderate amount that can make a big difference. It doesn't function like normal +Buy because you would only need one copy of the card for it to be effective. You wouldn't have a bajillion useless tokens because you wouldn't be picking up many copies of the card.
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Weighing in on this specific conversation, I think Rabbit is super weak. I think +Buy tokens are weak in general because the kind of deck that most wants +Buy is the kind of deck that will draw its +Buy card anyway. But even disregarding that, Rabbit is weak. I think a cantrip that gave you a +Buy token would be better. But probably it would need another option, like you could either gain a +1 Buy token OR a +1 Action token.
But really the bottom line is that I certainly don't think +1 Buy tokens are going to be worth doing more than once, and it's not super great to have a bunch of tokens for one card (though not unprecedented e.g. Embargo).
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Weighing in on this specific conversation, I think Rabbit is super weak. I think +Buy tokens are weak in general because the kind of deck that most wants +Buy is the kind of deck that will draw its +Buy card anyway. But even disregarding that, Rabbit is weak. I think a cantrip that gave you a +Buy token would be better. But probably it would need another option, like you could either gain a +1 Buy token OR a +1 Action token.
But really the bottom line is that I certainly don't think +1 Buy tokens are going to be worth doing more than once, and it's not super great to have a bunch of tokens for one card (though not unprecedented e.g. Embargo).
See, I think that Rabbit adds to decks that can't reliably draw its +Buy card. Weaker engines that don't fully draw themselves.
I agree with your latter statement though. There are only so many things you can do with these tokens without it getting repetitive.
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Weighing in on this specific conversation, I think Rabbit is super weak. I think +Buy tokens are weak in general because the kind of deck that most wants +Buy is the kind of deck that will draw its +Buy card anyway. But even disregarding that, Rabbit is weak. I think a cantrip that gave you a +Buy token would be better. But probably it would need another option, like you could either gain a +1 Buy token OR a +1 Action token.
But really the bottom line is that I certainly don't think +1 Buy tokens are going to be worth doing more than once, and it's not super great to have a bunch of tokens for one card (though not unprecedented e.g. Embargo).
See, I think that Rabbit adds to decks that can't reliably draw its +Buy card. Weaker engines that don't fully draw themselves.
I agree with your latter statement though. There are only so many things you can do with these tokens without it getting repetitive.
Weaker engines will also not have as easy of a time accumulating enough coins to need extra buys in the first place. Although of course there are exceptions, and being less predictable could get smoothed out a bit by the tokens.
But yeah while the concept of saving things other than coins certainly has merit, I don't think it makes much sense to be using tokens for them. Walled Village is one example of this sort of concept, where the card itself gets stored, although that particular card has its own issues.
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Weighing in on this specific conversation, I think Rabbit is super weak. I think +Buy tokens are weak in general because the kind of deck that most wants +Buy is the kind of deck that will draw its +Buy card anyway. But even disregarding that, Rabbit is weak. I think a cantrip that gave you a +Buy token would be better. But probably it would need another option, like you could either gain a +1 Buy token OR a +1 Action token.
But really the bottom line is that I certainly don't think +1 Buy tokens are going to be worth doing more than once, and it's not super great to have a bunch of tokens for one card (though not unprecedented e.g. Embargo).
See, I think that Rabbit adds to decks that can't reliably draw its +Buy card. Weaker engines that don't fully draw themselves.
I agree with your latter statement though. There are only so many things you can do with these tokens without it getting repetitive.
Weaker engines will also not have as easy of a time accumulating enough coins to need extra buys in the first place. Although of course there are exceptions, and being less predictable could get smoothed out a bit by the tokens.
But yeah while the concept of saving things other than coins certainly has merit, I don't think it makes much sense to be using tokens for them. Walled Village is one example of this sort of concept, where the card itself gets stored, although that particular card has its own issues.
Weaker engines won't have enough coins to need +Buy every turn, but they'll certainly get good use out of +Buy on some turns. And in that scenario, you'd have to be pretty lucky to line up your +Buy card with the turn where the +Buy would be useful. You could buy multiple copies of the +Buy card to try to get some consistency, but that's a lot of opportunity cost that isn't worth it when you aren't putting the +Buy to good use every turn you get it. This is why I think Rabbit works fine at $2. You buy it early, you get just enough +Buy when you need it very consistently and with little opportunity cost.
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
Yes, I'm saying that I think Rabbit could be enough to make the weaker engine viable in that scenario, where something like Herbalist wouldn't cut it. That's exactly my point.
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
Yes, I'm saying that I think Rabbit could be enough to make the weaker engine viable in that scenario, where something like Herbalist wouldn't cut it. That's exactly my point.
I disagree.
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
Yes, I'm saying that I think Rabbit could be enough to make the weaker engine viable in that scenario, where something like Herbalist wouldn't cut it. That's exactly my point.
I disagree.
And that's cool. It's not like either of us have playtested this extensively, or at all.
To clarify, "weaker engine" might not be the best term here. I'm thinking more of the kind of deck that sits.between engine and BM archetypes. I think reliable +Buy via tokens could really help even BM-leaning strategies in that continuum.
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
Yes, I'm saying that I think Rabbit could be enough to make the weaker engine viable in that scenario, where something like Herbalist wouldn't cut it. That's exactly my point.
I disagree.
And that's cool. It's not like either of us have playtested this extensively, or at all.
To clarify, "weaker engine" might not be the best term here. I'm thinking more of the kind of deck that sits.between engine and BM archetypes. I think reliable +Buy via tokens could really help even BM-leaning strategies in that continuum.
I agree with you in general, but I think you're underestimating the opportunity cost. Rabbit is as bad as a Curse for the turns that you draw it.
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When we're talking about "weaker" engines that use Rabbit for +Buy, I think we're talking about "should have played a non-engine strategy instead".
Yes, I'm saying that I think Rabbit could be enough to make the weaker engine viable in that scenario, where something like Herbalist wouldn't cut it. That's exactly my point.
I disagree.
And that's cool. It's not like either of us have playtested this extensively, or at all.
To clarify, "weaker engine" might not be the best term here. I'm thinking more of the kind of deck that sits.between engine and BM archetypes. I think reliable +Buy via tokens could really help even BM-leaning strategies in that continuum.
I agree with you in general, but I think you're underestimating the opportunity cost. Rabbit is as bad as a Curse for the turns that you draw it.
To be clear, I agree that the card is probably weak in general. I just don't think it's so terribly weak that it needs a buff to sit at $2.
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It would be better to have a version that wasn't terribly weak, though. The card should be a competitive source of +Buy, not a last resort.
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It would be better to have a version that wasn't terribly weak, though. The card should be a competitive source of +Buy, not a last resort.
I think it would be a niche kind of weak.
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It would be better to have a version that wasn't terribly weak, though. The card should be a competitive source of +Buy, not a last resort.
I think it would be a niche kind of weak.
That's the only kind of weak there is, other than "so weak you should absolutely never buy it". Having a few niche cards isn't the end of the world, but ideally they should at least be fun to use. Counting House feels great when you get it to work. "I play 11 Coppers and buy a Colony!" I don't think Rabbit will feel very satisfying. And it's SO easy to make not terrible! Just give it +1 Card and maybe raise its cost to $3. Or give it +$1 and keep it at $2. Whatever.