Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => 2016 DominionStrategy Championships => Archive => 2011 => Topic started by: theory on December 19, 2011, 10:08:05 am
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Please post all match results in this topic. The current bracket is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1055.0). The previous topic can be found here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1018.0).
The current round is Division Finals. The current round ends on January 15, 2011, 11:59:59PM EST.
Overall schedule:
28-Nov 4-Dec Round 1
5-Dec 11-Dec Round 2
12-Dec 18-Dec Round 3
19-Dec 25-Dec Round 4
26-Dec 1-Jan Round of 16 / Division Semifinals
2-Jan 8-Jan Round of 16 / Division Semifinals
9-Jan 15-Jan Quarterfinal / Division Finals
16-Jan 22-Jan Semifinal
23-Jan 29-Jan Final
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From the previous thread, here are the missing game logs from the Round 3 matchup between mischiefmaker (11) and ARTjoMS (6):
Game 2: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111218-074659-0e6694c8.html
Game 6: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111218-083154-f778478d.html (Yep, still stings. But I encourage folks to check this one out.)
@exclams: Remodel/FG is quite fast. I'm not particularly good at tweaking the sim and I get 13.7 turns to 4 provinces and a convincing 59-36 win rate over Envoy-BM. The play rules are pretty easy too: buy one Remodel, Remodel everything to Fool's Gold unless you can buy Provinces. Adding a Library speeds things up a bit, clocking in at 13.2 turns to 4 Provinces.
Note that this might underestimate the strategy a bit, since you can Remodel Provinces to Provinces for additional speed, and having a late-game option to trash FG for Gold might be something the sim doesn't handle well either.
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Chapel Division
First 4:0 Qvist
Game 1 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111217-142401-fb90ccaa.html) First 78:59
Key cards - Black Market, Bazaar, University, Envoy, Fairgrounds, Colony/Platinum
BM/Fairgrounds looks very nice, and my best record for Carny is 12 vp for each Fairgrounds, and there is Bazaar to accommodate all terminals especially Envoy, so here I go. We got Potion with $4 but for $3 I grabbed Black Market while Qvist bought Silver, which didn't really matter much since I didn't use my first Black Market play to buy any cards from it.
I got three Universities and the Bazaar split was 8:2, which I think is the deciding factor. I was lucky to pull out Mountebank from the Black Market, when Qvist later bought Familiar, and the curse split was 3:3 (Qvist trashed two). Qvist grabbed Harvest instead of University on turn 7, which was not good enough considering he would miss a few key cards. The game ended on pile (Fairgroudns/Bazaar/Wishing Well) with 4:4 Fairgrounds and 8vp each but my buy power was greater and won with 4/2 Colonies.
Game 2 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/19/game-20111219-130438-ba872c6f.html) First 51:45
Key cards - Lab, Nobles, Mint, Rabble
Very boring $3/$4 comparing to Lab/Nobles engine, so we both opened Silver/Silver. I spent all $6 on Nobles, whereas Qvist got Gold first and quickly bought 3 Provinces. At some point I was 1:3 Province behind but 7:1 Nobles ahead, so the total vp's were the same but my deck had better draw power. After Duchy Dance and 7 vp ahead with no +buy Qvist couldn't buy the last Province so the game ended on piles (Nobles/Duchy/Estate)
Game 3 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/19/game-20111219-131527-2f539287.html) First 50:23
Key cards - Tactician, Tournament, Steward, Haggler, Jester, Horn of Plenty
Tactician/Tournament is obvious at first glance, but Qvist admitted that he had a bad win rate with Tactician, so he opened Hagger/nothing against Tactician/nothing. My plan was executed perfectly : got Steward turn 3, played Tactician turn 4, trashed two estates and bought Gold turn 5, played Tactician turn 6, bought Province/Tournament turn 7, played Tactician turn 8, won Followers turn 9. The game was basically over after that.
Game 4 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/19/game-20111219-132807-5456d904.html) Tie 36:36
Key cards - Fool's Gold, Horse Traders, Ghost Ship, Venture, Trading Post
It's very tempting to play around Fool's Gold, which seems like the right choice with Horse Traders providing early +buy and Venture to go through the deck for more FG. I opened Silver/Horse Traders against Qvits's Fool's Gold/Horse Traders, which was the mistake. FG split was 4:6 with Qvist having more, and the last one was bought on turn 6 ! Qvist had a big advantage so I tried to grab more Ventures and it was 7:3 in the end. I was behind all the time, so I broke the PPR. Qvist bought Crossroads instead of Estate on turn 22, which let me grabbed the last Province and finished with tie. Had he bought Estate on that turn, I would never have a chance to comeback from losing.
Game 5 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/19/game-20111219-133541-f4c7338f.html) First 70:11
Key cards - Grand Market, Peddler, City, Expand, Moneylender, Lookout
A grand Colony game, with all juicy cards. I opened Lookout/Moneylender and Qvist chose Silver/Moneylender. My deck was trimmed very fast thanks to second Lookout, and the engine was geared up after turn 10, while Qvits flooded his deck with treasure cards. His second Moneylender was the mistake, I think.
All in all, thanks Qvist for the series.
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Finally I'm out. I thought that would never happen ;)
I had a very bad day, not seeing the obvious combos. So, I deserve being out of the tournament.
first already made a very good analysis.
In the first game I just was too slow. As first said, grabbing the Bazaars with University could be the deciding factor. His Mountebank was also very lucky and slowed me down too.
The second game I played not that bad, I think. first was going for Nobles and I tried to go straight Big Money with 1 Rabble and 1 Nobles.
It was even, so we were going for Duchies. In turn 22 first's Nobles finally paid out and grabbed the penultimate Province. If he hadn't bought it, I would have bought it in the next turn, so I think this game was a bit lucky for first.
Then it was going very badly. Tactician of course was the opening of choice. I didn't dare to go for it because of my bad win rate with Tactician, so I opened Haggler.
Game over!
In game 4, we both were going for Fool's Gold / Horse Traders. FG split was 6/4 in my favor. I bought 2 Ghost Ships to slow first down and to get the FG togehter while he tried Venture which was a little bit too slow. I got the lead and had it until the very end. Then I made the mistake of the tournament. I bought Crossroads instead of Estate because I thought I had a higher lead (Don't ask me why).
In game 5 I was a little bit frustrated to let this win slip away and made many bad mistakes. I skipped Lookout for a second Moneylender (what was I thinking). So he could grab Grand Markets and Peddlers faster and it was game over.
Thanks first for the great matches. I was a little sad that I played so bad, but I reached round 4 and I'm very proud of it. So I'm in the top 32 of the tournament and that only seeded 145th. And I survived longer than jonts26, the #1 seeded. So I think I can be proud of that. I'm looking forward for the next tournament. Thanks theory, for organizing this.
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In game 4, we both were going for Fool's Gold / Horse Traders. FG split was 6/4 in my favor. I bought 2 Ghost Ships to slow first down and to get the FG togehter while he tried Venture which was a little bit too slow. I got the lead and had it until the very end. Then I made the mistake of the tournament. I bought Crossroads instead of Estate because I thought I had a higher lead (Don't ask me why).
I ignored Ghost Ship at first because of Horse Traders, but I got to use the reaction part only once. Moreover, it can help you topdeck Fool's Gold for the next hand (see turn 15), but again I took that advantage exactly once. And, hey, Venture will skip green cards you topdeck, but again .... That's why my strategy turned out to be bad in game 4.
I think we need a simulator for game 2, but in my opinion with those Nobles my deck cycles faster, not clogged up, and I consistently hit $6 and buy another one. If you notice the log, I didn't play all treasures on turn 15 & 19. Those turns I hit $8 but buying the penultimate Province will end in tie. You bought Lab instead of Estate on turn 22, and that's when I snatched out the last Province and kept Estate lead with second player advantage.
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I think we need a simulator for game 2, but in my opinion with those Nobles my deck cycles faster, not clogged up, and I consistently hit $6 and buy another one. If you notice the log, I didn't play all treasures on turn 15 & 19. Those turns I hit $8 but buying the penultimate Province will end in tie. You bought Lab instead of Estate on turn 22, and that's when I snatched out the last Province and kept Estate lead with second player advantage.
I played around with this for a while and came to a surprising conclusion... But first, some observations: this is pretty much a big money game and Mint is quite awful (especially if you're trashing one of your Silvers). Laboratory is also quite weak in BM games. The main goal is still Provinces, but Nobles are very important as well to get the VP-advantage. The simulator wants at least one Gold before diving into the Nobles (and Provinces). My play would be to aim for Rabble first to kick start the deck, then get a Gold and start greening (Nobles and Provinces). The simulator likes that too, but it likes something else even more (and the fact you both open Silver/Silver should be a good clue): Noble Brigand into Nobles. That bot beats Rabble into Nobles 56-39.
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I narrowly advance over def. Edit: many annotations added.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-120057-cff11d81.html
game one - def.
Somehow I thought we had mirror strategies while we were playing this, but looking back at the log, I was all over the place! Textbook example of "less is more." Also, serious question, when do you stop buying harems and start buying duchies? As is clear, I don't know. I also make an embarrassing game-end error and lose by a point.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-121107-0baa2fdc.html
game two - tie
Cursing game with lots of peddlers. Neither of us had any money and it ended in a tie. Probably should have just gone witch + big money.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-121655-a8ce44e2.html
game three - def
I got burned by ironworks great hall island a few months ago and thought I'd try it out. Def mirrors on the second shuffle, and delaying works in his favor - his early silver results in a province buy very late in the game that clinches it.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-122651-30c20662.html
game four - ehunt
True story: I played Magic the Gathering in middle school, when Fallen Empires had just come out (and sucked) and quit shortly after (I liked learning the rules better than playing). I recall joke flavor text on a magic card I read much later, when many more rules were around. "40 black lotuses and 40 plague rats - now that's Magic!" I thought this was hilarious as I understood nothing else on the texts of any of the cards but I remembered those rats! Anyway, border village + torturer, that's Dominion. (Yes, border village is a new card, but the spirit of this strategy is as old-school as it gets. Really, where am I going with this story?) I'm first player, so my torturer chain goes off first, so I win. No complaints!
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-123608-5b749545.html
game five - ehunt wins
We both open silver/duchess with 5-2 on this board! (I had vetoed witch to make it a duke/hoard game.) I get a hoard on the second shuffle by drawing my silver and duchess together; def doesn't, and this determines the game.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-124512-172197a8.html
game six - ehunt wins
This was the only game I was happy with my strategy. Oracle works well with big money, and it's OK to have a few oracles since they self-protect against collision in a way that smithies don't.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-125122-6e921263.html
game seven - ehunt wins
I hate swindler, but he seems necessary. I also hate jack in a colony game, but he also seems necessary. I do a little mid-game cleaning with mints, which help me get a colony in a game that's otherwise a province-rush, but I'm not sure if I got lucky or not.
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Nice match and congrats for ehunt! I enjoyed playing and the meanwhile chat. 4-2 is the result.
Honestly, I really didn't know in some game what useful things I should do there, took wrong curses in the torturer game and opted for Jack in the last game BEFORE noticing it's a Colony game...
Aside from maybe my two Spice Merchants in the first game, which I liked, I didn't think there was a game where I had a better plan than ehunt, so a fully deserved win.
Interesting sidenote: Three games (3,5,7) where one player gets one important Victory Card (Province in Ironworks and Duke game, Colony in Jack game) that makes the difference.
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Witch: painted_cow 4 vs stefan_k 1
Veto, same starting hand, point counter as always 8)
1:0 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-120600-505c3f38.html
stefan_k went 1st. Embassy BigMoney, with some Warehouses. I tried to get a Province asap, trying to put some pressure. And it worked, since stefan_k bought Duchies very early. I dont buy more than 1 Gold, because with so many Silvers and Embassy I felt I wont need them.
2:0 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-122448-a9317df0.html
stefan_k went 1st. I took a really slow approach here with Potion/Trade Route vs Militia/Blackmarket. His terminals didnt collide early and he got a fast start. Meanwhile I got me some Scrying Pools, but ended with doing nothing besides trashing often like 2 times in the early game. Imho his Inns werent that great, and his deck didnt get much better from there on, whereas the PoolEngine fired up soon, allowing me to draw my whole deck soon. I could get 6:4 Peddlers and managed to draw a Salvager (hi Peddlers) and KC from the Black Market, which was indeed nice. When I finally could assemble these pieces together I bought 4 Provinces in one turn (salvaging 3 Peddlers via KC).
2:1 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-130522-970180a5.html
stefan_k went first. This was pretty much a Mirrormatch, with a huge draw engine possible. Going second in such games is really bad, since a 3-pile-ending was easily to reach with us both going for many enginecards and Jester around. In the end I thought I had won, since I could 3 pile. My hand were like 2 Jester and had 2 Wharfs from last turn. All I needed was a Village type card or a Silver. Funnily my deck didnt deliver anything but greens, a curse another Jester and a Margrave :-( Stefan_k could pile this easily then...Felt really unlucky for me, but luckily it didnt decide the whole outcome.
3:1 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-131547-32b07c15.html
painted_cow went 1st. I opted for Steward/Silver, he for Steward/Potion (Alchemists). Since I got 4 Coppers and Steward in T3 I decided not to trash anything and bought Gold. From there on I played VaultBigmoney and used the Steward as terminal Silver each time. Stefan missed his first Alchemist with 2P and was really behind from there on. The board doesnt hat any +buy, so imho the Alchemists werent too great anyway to overcome the disadvantage of the slow start.
4:1 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-132642-b8a3af26.html
stefan_k went first. We both had 5/2. Really interesting board where I appreciate the opinion of Geronimoos and the simulator. I opted for Vault/Crossroad and simple BigMoney (ignoring Nobles) from there on getting another Vault later on. Stefan bought Mandarin/JoaT/Crossroads, getting 2nd Jack soon and 3 Nobles later on. At first I was a bit scared because he could happily discard in my Vault and draw stuff again with Jack, but somehow I managed to get 5:3 Province Split he could not overcome.
Thanks for the games!
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Turambar beats Mathguy 4-3
Turambar 40 mathguy 31:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-131035-95bf642a.html
Turambar 30 mathguy 25
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-131642-918b00e2.html
Turambar 24 mathguy 35:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-132031-ec1a6f14.html
Turambar 16 mathguy 21:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-132641-fef8c7f3.html
Turambar 37 mathguy 39:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-133412-df64466d.html
Turambar 35 mathguy 30:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-133956-cf78ea98.html
Turambar 40 mathguy 27:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-134928-d8d3be4a.html
Thx for the games! Yet again a 4-3 win for me.
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I played around with this for a while and came to a surprising conclusion... But first, some observations: this is pretty much a big money game and Mint is quite awful (especially if you're trashing one of your Silvers). Laboratory is also quite weak in BM games. The main goal is still Provinces, but Nobles are very important as well to get the VP-advantage. The simulator wants at least one Gold before diving into the Nobles (and Provinces). My play would be to aim for Rabble first to kick start the deck, then get a Gold and start greening (Nobles and Provinces). The simulator likes that too, but it likes something else even more (and the fact you both open Silver/Silver should be a good clue): Noble Brigand into Nobles. That bot beats Rabble into Nobles 56-39.
Thanks for the result ! It is really surprising. I agree with your analysis, though in fact Qvist made use of Mint quite well, gaining three Golds from it. I will give Noble Brigand a try next time :)
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Witch Division: RisingJaguar (RJ - #12) def. Elyv (#4) 4-2
The matches were Identical hands and Veto mode. I have to say that Elyv had some real bad drawing luck in some games you'll see. To the summaries! Scores will be posted RJ - Elyv:
Game 1: 23 - 27 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-131547-c253b9d3.html
Key Cards: Remake, Familiar, Warehouse, Laboratory, Embargo.
It was my silver/remake vs. potion/warehouse. In the end it was familiars 3-1 and curses 8-2 or 7-3? I tried to embargo Golds to slow his economy, but then realized in a familiar game, that wouldn't work all that well... I think a crucial error was when i bought a second remake because it ended up being an unplayable card.
Game 2: 40 - 18 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-133010-200ec67a.html
Key Cards: Festival, Menagerie, Warehouse, other good cards
The game took a weird turn after starting off 5/2, making alchemists a bad decision from the start. The obvious goal was to get festivals/menagerie/warehouses working together. I considered alchemist/Outpost but then 5/2 start got rid of that. Not sure how i got such a huge lead, but I did. Best analysis ever.
Game 3: 39 - 29 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-134018-d33c5959.html
Key Cards: Young witch, Hunting Party, Tunnel, Crossroad (bane), Upgrade
Elyv started with Mandarin as well, which provided some great money to start (a lot more hunting parties). He had an early $8 which forced him to buy province while i began the YW/Tunnel/Crossroads combo. Elyv had a enough to buy last province but correctly extended the game (would've lost on turns). Traded estates and then I bought last province.
Game 4: 27 - 37 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-135407-c6e52dd4.html
Key Cards: Everything
My engine consisted of fishing villages and card drawers of envoy and torturers. His consisted of tunnel/warehouse. Without any + buys my engine took far too long to build. I probably should have delved into haggler sooner.
Game 5: RJ wins by a few points (forgot log)
Key Cards: Horse Trader, Duke, Silk Road, Harems (not used)
After reading the article on DominionStrategy.com with Dukes/HT, Duke mirror match was born. $5s were for Duchy/Dukes, $4 for HT or silks. Nothing too exciting, I considered Harems for early $6 i had (as it would add to silk roadds as well)
Game 6: 11 - -100 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-140840-8e345a12.html
Key Cards: Menagerie, Hamlet, Goons, Militia, Gardens
Elyv opened up Silver/Silver likely in hopes to get Goons quickly and transition to mass hamlet/menageries. Unfortunately, he got stuck with <$6 not only turns 3/4 but the whole game. I capitalized by early Hamlet to mass hamlets. At this point, i was very flexible with the hamlets/Menageries and wass going to mass buy Goons and Gardens for the win.
Games 2 and 6 were some really bad shuffling luck for Elyv despite it being a close set so likely Elyv would've won otherwise. Thanks for the games. Please msg or reply if you can criticize my game. =)
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Game 5: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-140117-73ee6124.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-140117-73ee6124.html)
I thought RisingJaguar played better than I did overall for sure, but Game 6 was incredibly frustrating.
Also, it was a really interesting set of games, with no two games being all that similar. I'd love to hear criticism of how to play these sets.
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Gardens round 4: chwhite (seed 1) vs. Exclams (seed 8)
A hotly contested eight(!!)-game series
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-200603-407fcf33.html
We both ignore hamlet/library. chwhite opens silver/courtyard to snatch a turn 3 ghost ship. My first five buys are FG, hoping they'll provide some ship resistance. We both buy a ship on turn 7, and then it's just money and VP for the rest of the game. I win by a very slim margin, arguably due to my turn 16 FG->gold trash. Seems like a game that the simulator could optimize. Did we make good choices?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-201427-b9885244.html
Colony game with lousy trashing, lousy draw, no +actions, and no +buy. I get my first platinum on turn 10, and also buy platinum on turns 16, 17, and 18. He doesn't get his first platinum til turn 15, and doesn't get a second one til turn 26. I'm not sure either of us made very different decisions. Again, I win by a very slim margin, with split colonies, split provinces, and a duchy in my favor. Was this game decided by anything other than me lucking into earlier platinum?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-202328-1123b41a.html
A nice harmonious engine by chwhite, which matures on turn 6 and buys provinces on turns 7-11 and 13. In his first five turns, chwhite gains 6 different cards and trashes his estates, setting up a very menagerie-friendly situation supported by inn, stables, and courtyard. I miss that inn is a great menagerie enabler, which may have decided the game. I fall behind, and my farmland shenanigans don't make up the difference.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-203339-31d8cf9f.html
I feel dumb for missing the strong governor/margrave combo. Instead I tried for a FV/envoy/money engine. My engine is sitll pretty fast! At the end of turn 13, I'm leading 4 provinces to 1, with two islands and a duchy for good measure. However, in his final megaturn, chwhite governor-trashes three golds to provinces and an estate to an island. I hoped that I could co-trash to keep my lead, but despite gaining two islands and a duchy on his last turn, I fall behind. Fun game. I imagine governor megaturns are hard to simulate, but I'm interested if anyone can say which engine is favored here.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-204231-5f2dddd2.html
Not proud of this one. I'm sure treasure map/haven has its place, but probably not on a tactician/minion board. When my TMs go off on turn 8, he's already got two minions, apprentice, and a tactician, and he promptly minions away my 4-gold hand into c-vp-vp-vp. I pick up 16 VP in a big tactician turn, and farmland lets me squeeze out another province, but mostly I sit idle while he gobbles up minions. I'm downright shocked when the game ends in a tie.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-205312-c771633c.html
You know it's an unusual game when you both open duchess. I was haaaalf tempted to skip potion and open upgrade, but I bet the experienced folks here are clucking their tongues at that notion. Lots of trashing to take the edge of familiar, but still a bit of a slog. I won, but I'm not real clear if I did anything different in an important way. Avoided transmute and FV? Shuffle luck again?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-210141-1cabeb2d.html
I thought chwhite's play here was very smooth and clean. University/Apprentice is an obvious combo, but using his first play of apprentice to mint away 7 coppers? Pretty slick, especially considering he only had two silvers remaining. Anyhow, by turn 11 he's buying GMs, and I give up hope. chwhite, what motivated early spies over silver? I guess digging for apprentices is more important than purchasing power?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/20/game-20111220-211314-c2993891.html
Game point! All tied up, plus a draw. My hands are shaking, and the board looks action-packed. I get lucky right off the bat; my cards are drawing harmoniously, and by turn 5 I have the makings of a nice little engine (2 wharves, crossroads, remake, bridge, warehouse, and tunnel). I also get another kind of luck; I think chwhite opening wharf/embargo over wharf/crossroads may have decided the game. Card-harmony continues to shine on me, and on turn 8 I luck into a warehouse/tunnel/bridge/remake situation to trash two coppers and net two golds, three great halls and two embargoed crossroads, curse-free. I miss that my great halls will make chwhite's tributes beefy, but my deck is playing itself at this point, and I win.
There's no question chwhite is a stronger player. I'm very proud to have played well enough for variance to tip in my favor. I apologize again for my tardiness to our game, and appreciate your patience and sportsmanship, chwhite.
If anybody wants to give pointers on these games, I'm all ears. They're burned into my memory at this point.
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Excellent write-up, Exclams.
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And another top seed goes down! A lot of close games, mostly on boards that don't play to my strengths, and one (okay really several) huge unforgivable strategic mistake(s) in the final game which seals my fate.
Thoughts on the games:
Game 1: I thought Silver/Courtyard going for the quick Ghost Ship was probably the right move... but the "nothing but Fool's Gold" strategy proved a lot stronger than I was expecting, and in particular I overlooked how it would be a good counter to Ghost Ship. Getting the second Ghost Ship was certainly a mistake in light of that; a 6-4 FG split would have been better. Maybe FG is better than I was giving credit for, after all.
Game 2: Really not sure what else I could have done here. Big Money Colonies with Militia and Jester for attacks and no engine possibility whatsoever is a pretty painful prospect, and there was nothing to do here but buy treasure and hope for good shuffles.
Game 3: Menagerie and Inn are quite literally my two best cards, and combining them together with Remake makes for a very fast game. This was definitely my best play of the series.
Game 4: I actually don't have much if any experience playing the Governor spam strategy (gain Gold, draw and remodel on the last turn), but Margrave was a point in its favor and I'll do anything that isn't Envoy. :P Was definitely worried that I'd run out of time, but snuck ahead at the very end.
Game 5: I'm not proud of this one either, I thought that with mass Minions over Treasure Map I would have no problem winning easy, especially after Embargoing Tactician right after buying it. I think what consigned me to a tie was that I spent a bit too long engine-building and would have been better served greening a turn or two earlier. I also wonder if a Duke/Duchy play would have been a good idea, or getting a second Tactician.
Game 6: Another one where we did virtually the same thing and I suspect it mostly came down to shuffle luck. I think the Transmute was definitely the right buy when I got it (a $2P hand), since it works just fine on Estates and Curses, and the late game Duchies could have made a difference, and who cares if it's slow because this is a Familiar game, but the first FV was probably a mistake.
Game 7: The spies were mainly because I wanted better Apprentice fuel; I briefly considered the Gardens route myself but after I Minted all the Coppers there was no going back and they became prime Embargo targets.
Game 8: Oh, the shame, the humanity. Why the hell would I open Embargo instead of Crossroads on a board with frickin' Great Hall?!?!? I mean, I knew that was a combo potential! I think what was going through my mind was that I was second player, and if we both went for the obvious combo you'd almost certainly be able to three-pile first, and Wharf/Embargo might be a good segue into hopefully a fast Wharf-BM deck, hope that Crossroads turns out to actually be a trap because I sure need to do something different otherwise I'm just screwed. Then I draw them both together on Turn 3 and realize that I just made one of the stupidest mistakes in my long history of Dominion playing. And then I didn't even pick the right Embargo target, Great Halls would have been better, and floundered around with other crap where if I was going Wharf BM I should have just goddamn gone Wharf BM, presence of Remake and Warehouse-Tunnel be damned. The Tributes were obviously a desperation move. Aaargh. Based on the sheer incompetence I showed in that one game alone, I think it's quite obvious that the more deserving player advanced.
There's no question chwhite is a stronger player. I'm very proud to have played well enough for variance to tip in my favor. I apologize again for my tardiness to our game, and appreciate your patience and sportsmanship, chwhite.
I think there is plenty of question! Our last game alone should put my status as a "superior player" in grave doubt, and after these games our lifetime record versus each other is 11-11-2. No superiority there!
Thanks again for an excellent and nerve-wracking series of games, and best of luck in the rest of the tournament.
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Looking at these logs confirmed what I already thought: chwhite is a sick sick engine builder. His Big Money might need some work, but I hope he doesn't come around to it or I'll never beat him.
And very well played to Exclams of course! Thanks for the write up guys.
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@chwhite: Of course the Embargo wasnt smart at all, but even when you make the same opening you wont have many chances to win this considering Exclams draw. This was pretty much over by turn 5.
Game 7, love your play. Really well done!
@ Exclams: nice review and I like the idea of not telling the result until the very end. Makes it somehow more entertaining to read the conclusions etc.
And Geronimoo, please have a short look on my last game vs stefan_k about the openings etc. thx so far
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Geronimoo's simulator always plays the crossroads with {crossroads, vault, copper, copper, copper} in hand which probably voids the simulated results. It's not a bad play rule, just not appropriate here. The Jack of All Trades also isn't discarding on the vault plays and missing a significant advantage. With that still in mind, the simulator gives the young witch a clear win against vault/crossroads and a clear loss to vault/duchess.
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Opening Mandarin then going for 2 Jacks is significantly worse than just opening Jack. And a Vault opening convincingly beats a Jack opening (going for Nobles). The simulator doesn't always discard to Vault when it has a Jack in hand, but I doubt fixing this would be enough to tip the scales in favor of Jack.
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Okay, thats good to here, that I made the right decision with my intuition :-) Thanks for the effort of simulating.
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G3 of chwhite vs. Exclams is one of the sickest games I've ever seen. Every decision by chwhite is so efficient. I'm really impressed.
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G3 of chwhite vs. Exclams is one of the sickest games I've ever seen. Every decision by chwhite is so efficient. I'm really impressed.
Every turn was certainly highly efficient. How much of that can actually be attributed to decisions, though? How often, when you replay that board, are you going to be able to do as well? If his remake / silver had simply come in the opposite order on turn 3-4, he would lose 1.5-2 turns and quite possibly the game.
I in no way mean to belittle the accomplishments of the game, but in over a dozen replays, i have not once managed to get a (productive) turn 4 inn from the same start. Without that turn 4 inn, i'm unable to do better than 6 provinces in 15 or 16 turns, which may well have still been enough to win, but would've been much less impressive.
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There's something to be said, though, about taking advantage of your opportunities. Good players take advantage of their luck in a better way than others. With $5 there, I certainly would not have thought to use Inn.
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Thief, Guy Srinivasan vs toaster partial results:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-092014-a531dbe6.html
Guy Srinivasan
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-092833-a120a7e6.html
toaster
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-093813-71080566.html
toaster
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-095416-2f8e12bf.html
Guy Srinivasan
toaster to start first in the next game
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Gardens Division, Round 4 - (6) mith d. (30) ckb, 4-2
Game 1: mith 44-42 ckb (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-190601-32d377e1.html)
Game 2: ckb 41-45 mith (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-191109-fe52b43f.html)
Game 3: ckb 47-32 mith (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-192041-42d0a21b.html)
Game 4: mith 32-43 ckb (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-192952-7ef7380a.html)
Game 5: mith 48-30 ckb (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-193701-f77efe90.html)
Game 6: ckb 47-61* mith (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/22/game-20111222-195449-a1258f34.html)
*My computer completely freaked out in the middle of ckb's final turn, but as you can see from the log I had the final Great Hall buy in hand, and ckb was kind enough to call it at 4-2 rather than demand a replay.
Game 1 was Vault/Tunnel; my opening Swindler hit his, and that largely the deciding factor, though I did start buying Estates rather early and nearly cost myself the game.
Game 2 was Baron/Stables; again, I had better luck in the opening, this time with turn 3/4 double Gold while he took Stables/Silver and a Spy those turns. With a few Gold I switched to Stables, and was able to split the Duchies 5-3.
Game 3 had Witches to start, and I tried Smithy to rush up to Border Village and King's Court, while he went for Caravans and Markets. My King's Courts never cooperated (thanks to the Curses, mostly), and I regretted not investing more heavily in Markets for +Buy.
Game 4 was Mountebank... I went for Walled Villages and Council Rooms, while he focused on Cartographers and an Apprentice, and his deck quality ultimately won out. Turns 18/19 were particularly annoying, as I Courtyarded a Mountebank only to draw it with another Mountebank and a Council Room.
Game 5 I am quite proud of... We both opened Cache/Chapel, and my Chapel waited until turn 5, so I decided to rush Cities and buy a bunch of Monuments. After falling well behind on Provinces, UCS took over.
Game 6 was Apothecary/Goons. I grabbed a second Potion early which gave me a 7-3 split, grabbed a third Goons, and also got to the Banks first. I was ahead by about a dozen most of the game, after that.
Thanks again for the match, ckb, and sorry about the computer troubles!
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mith plays a Chapel.
... trashing 3 Coppers and a Cache.
Love it! Congrats on that one, I doubt I would have ever thought of going City/Monument after the Chapel failed.
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No logs- but sharkbait defeats ehunt 4 3. Thanks for the games!
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sharkbait (7) over ehunt (2) in the Chapel Division in a 7 game series
Game 1: shark_bait 3 - ehunt -100 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-115157-9c54a330.html)
Key Cards: Familiar, Scheme, Laboratory, Forge
This was a quick game decided by the fact that ehunt tried to circumvent familiar by buying labs --> forge. Unfortunately for him, he was not able to get a $7 buy before my familiar's shut him down. The curse giving was expedited by the presence of scheme. I should also point out that in this game, I had the lucky familiar. I was able to purchase familiar's on all passes through my deck. If I had missed once in my first of second chance, I think ehunt would have taken the victory.
Game 2: shark_bait 35 - ehunt 39 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-115854-8dcb8ee5.html)
Key Cards: Nobles, Spice Merchant
This one is not as close as it looks. We both open spice merchant to trash coppers. At the end of the game, I suicide knowing it's impossible for me to catch up. I started greening in the province category before ehunt, but his noble advantage is that he had enough nobles to not stall at the end game. He caught up and passed me as I struggled to hit 8$.
Game 3: shark_bait 31 - ehunt -100 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-120231-4196d38e.html)
Key Cards: Gardens, Royal Seal, Hoard, Workshop
I open royal seal/copper while he opens workshop/copper. It's quite obvious here that both of us will be obtaining some gardens. ehunt plays a standard workshop/garden based strategy while I go for something a bit different. I pick up a couple of hoards and another royal seal and although I lose the garden split 3-5, I am consistently able to hit 5$-8$ to buy duchies, fairgrounds, and provinces all while gaining and top decking golds due to the royal seal/hoard combo.
Game 4: shark_bait 39 - ehunt 42 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-121507-a5ddeb53.html)
Key Cards: King's Court, Throne Room, Caravan, Tactician, Develop
In this game, ehunt opens with develop/caravan and I wonder why he's doing that. After a while, it becomes clear that he is going to use it as a pseudo +buy by trashing King's Court's into provinces and other cards into other VP. I play a more standard strategy and opened caravan/smugglers. I get rolling well before he does, but on my last pass through my deck, I crash and burn. My deck needed my Throne Room's and King's Court's to hit my caravans and well, they didn't. ehunt like any good player takes full advantage and pulls the win right from under my nose.
Game 5: shark_bait 5ish - ehunt 10ish
Key cards: Ill Gotten Gains, Tunnel
This game was a typical Ill Gotten Gain's rush except that we had a convenient lower cost VP card to buy in addition to duchy. ehunt won the curse split easily and took a 3-pile victory.
Game 6: shark_bait 42 - ehunt -100 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-122524-c877a03e.html)
Key Cards: Ill Gotten Gains, Watchtower, Hunting Party, Hoard, Possession
Another Ill Gotten Gains game, this time with the presence of watchtower, we don't go for the rush. I buy a single one on turn 4 after I see that he revealed his watchtower the prior turn to try and bog down his hunting parties by adding a unique card. We both go for the Hunting Parties while I pick up a hoard and start greening. ehunt get's a potion to grab a possession, but by the time he get's it, I've greened up enough that it won't be 100% effective. He steals a couple good hands from me, but also get's a junk one.
Game 7: shark_bait 29 - ehunt -100 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-123149-43a2b394.html)
Key Cards: Tournament, Courtyard, Festival
I felt bad that this had to be the last game. The luck couldn't have gone worse for him. First, I manage a turn 6 province without having a gold in my deck. Then on turns 7 and 8, I use the one province to block him twice thanks to courtyard. Then to top it off, I grab the follower's on turn 8 and force him to discard a province gaining turn.
We definitely had our fair share of luck in this series. Thanks to ehunt for playing and sorry that game 7 hinged the luck of the draw.
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Witch division: Quasi (2) vs. Hurr (7)
quasi 62 Hurr 42 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-160512-8a4d33dd.html
I went for a junky duke strategy, it beat vanilla big money.
quasi 1 Hurr http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-161443-1fd78d70.html
Er, kind of embarrassing. I think we had the same strategy in mind, he just got his running much much much quicker than me. I welcome your thoughts on openings here: his loan/bridge opening trounced my silver/potion. I was worried about getting to 7 for king's court, without which there were no actions. Margrave was probably not a great move either.
quasi 36 Hurr 13 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-162054-52f08c5f.html
Hurr said he didn't think he had any chance going second in a militia big money board. So he did something with university and margraves. Got an early lead, and then salvaged away.
quasi 48 Hurr 73 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-162809-2c12760b.html
My stupid experiment with fool's gold in a colony game crashes and burns, which I'm sure surprises no one.
quasi 33 Hurr 39 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-163414-9686c12a.html
His wharf/BM beats my sort of bad attempt at making an engine, although I came close to squeaking out a win.
quasi 31 Hurr 18 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-164106-577e09fe.html
Nice engine game, assuredly my first turn advantage is the reason for winning. The provinces got bought up in 3 consecutive turns.
quasi 43 Hurr 36 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-165230-129219e1.html
Hurr got shafted by militia the first six times he got to six. In my defense, I did have two militias to his one in the early game. Then things sort of slowly crawled to a close three-pile for me with goons.
Thanks for the games Hurr. Final score is quasi 4, Hurr 3.
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Round 4: olneyce (8 seed) vs. lolrob (16 seed) in the Chapel division
olneyce wins 4-3.
I won the first game as the second player, and then the first player won every game for the rest of the series.
Game 1: lolrob 4 - 11 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-174209-c0b4fb31.html
Key cards: Young Witch, Black Market, Highway, Pearl Diver (bane)
We started out cursing, and then stocked up on Pearl Divers so that sort of petered out. But I got way ahead in the Pearl Divers, so I slowly added to my curse lead. The real game-breaker was me drawing Goons out of the Black Market. Since our decks were so wretched, no one was going to be buying any Provinces. That meant I could accumulate VPs and then end the game on piles. Highways really helped in that respect, too.
Game 2: lolrob 35 – 34 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-175437-c1a594a8.html
Key cards: Upgrade, Witch, Golem
I ignored Witch and Golem, and had fate shine on me. His Witch fell until turn 7, and I happened to have my one Moat in hand. I didn’t actually get a curse until turn 10. And, he missed 4P several times. I figured I could just tighten up my deck with all the Upgrades, buy a bunch of Provinces – and have the capacity to weed out the occasional curse. However, once his deck finally got going he caught up pretty quickly. I bought the second to last Province to put me up by 6 as the second player, but his deck was strong enough to get more than $8, with extra buys, so he won by one point.
Game 3: olneyce 32 – 18 lolrob
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-180608-bb4d435d.html
Key cards: Fishing Village, Sea Hag, Alchemist, Apprentice
We started out Hagging each other, but I bought a second while he stuck with one, allowing me to win the curse race 6-4. Then we transitioned into an Apprentice game. The major difference is that I went after Alchemists, which let me draw most of my deck several times. I had a pretty firm lead, but he actually pulled ahead on his turn 25 only to have me buy the last two Provinces on my next turn.
Game 4: lolrob 32 – 18 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-181535-c3495fa0.html
Key cards: Familiar, Wharf, Expand, Salvager
Not having learned my lesson from game 2, I again tried to ignore the Curses. I bought an Embargo to open, hoping to get Familiar embargoed before he could buy one. I wasn’t able to do it, though. And even after I did, he still bought another. Because, you know, taking one curse in exchange for the ability to dish out 5 or 6 is pretty reasonable. I was hoping to use all the trash-for-benefit cards to both erase curses and bootstrap me up to Provinces. But, for obvious reasons, it didn’t work out.
Game 5: olneyce 49 – 26 lolrob
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-182447-dc1a523e.html
Key cards: Governor, Goons
Pretty straightforward. I managed to get the Governor/Goons combo going first, and that was pretty much the ballgame.
Game 6: lolrob 61 – 40 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-183724-9b0bb5fd.html
Key cards: Scrying Pool, Haggler, Throne Room, Remodel, Governor
I just got crushed here. He set up his TR/Scrying Pool engine pretty quickly and once it was humming was able to Haggle Colony/Platinum buys. And then remodel the Platinums into more Colonies.
Game 7: olneyce 50 – 39 lolrob
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-184630-50dca53c.html
Key cards: Harvest, Silk Road, Tunnel, Harem
We both went after the Silk Roads, but I got ridiculously lucky. A turn 4 Mint got rid of five of my coppers, freeing me to Mint more Harems, use my Harvest to discard Tunnels, and just trot along my merry way. It’s kind of a shame when such a fun series gets resolved on something so trivial and luck-based, but I guess that’s part of the game.
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Thief Division, round4 roku vs monsterbrick (4-1)
1.http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-225916-5f5ba61b.html
2.http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-230951-2d2e3eba.html
3.http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-230347-2e3be66a.html (I lost)
4.http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-231500-8dbe3dc1.html
5.
Suddenly he resigned, and forgot to take the log. He said "good match and I have to go".
I told him whether this match counts, but he didn't reply.
I thought my deck was better than him and he didn't say anything, so I got this game.
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Garden devision, manzi defeats nomnomnom for 4-2
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-041553-30f2e8d5.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-043009-1045d40c.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-044030-d43c78c4.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-045127-2df5b163.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-050019-62fe4a66.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-052811-3d8b50d9.html
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Thief Division, WanderingWinder defeated timchen (allfail), 4-3.
A very close series. I was waiting for WW to post his thoughts, but then it turned out I can't sleep well without getting the thoughts out from my mind. Well, here it is...
game1 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-181635-6c5ce306.html): WW 39-allfail 27
I started second, turned out to be an ominous start... Relevant cards are Fool's Gold, Remake, Horse Traders, Hagglers, and Bank. I saw WW opened remake with a $4. I am obsessed with Fool's Gold recently and instantly think Horse Trader+Fool's Gold is going to get me to victory. I opened Horse Trader+ Fool's Gold. Now WW got an embargo on turn 3. I thought oh-no. Forgot about that... but I could still get 4 FGs before his first embargo... and probably more via hagglers later. My dream was scattered when my HT refused to show up at turn 4, and his embargo showed up at his turn 5. I have basically no chance thereafter, as his turn 3 and 4 embargos drawn perfectly at his turn 5 and 6 to give him 2 golds, while locking me out. Still, it seems to me now that even if I do get the HT at turn 4 (and didn't make the error later try to get a remake), I am not going to win with the FG embargoed. Good job reading the board correctly here.
game2 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-182435-a3d54d73.html): allfail 40- WW 35
This one is interesting too. The important cards here are Chapel, expand, and Bureaucrat. I thought for a while and opened Bureaucrat+Silver, vs. his Bureaucrat+Chapel. I don't know, I figured this board is at best marginal for chapeling; I also feel bureaucrat conflicts somewhat with chapel as an opening, since the top deck silver is probably something I don't want with the chapel in my next hand. I also recalled an old article at BGG about how b-crat beats chapel. The game is very close, however, with him getting at the Provinces earlier than I did. My failed attempts at the Provinces (became expands) saved me in the end game though.
game3 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-184036-beb3f8ef.html): WW 78- allfail 62
A very lackluster board with Platinums and Colonies... relevant cards are Fortune Teller, Shanty Town, Inn, Explorer, Bank, Expand. I still don't know how to play this board. I thought Silvers are bad, but this board it is hard to skip silvers. WW opened FT+silver. I thought FT was a bad idea since it cycles through my bad cards... how wrong I was. I opened shanty+silver, planned to use shanty as a semi-lab, trying to get to Golds faster without buying too many silver equivalents. The problem is, the FT hit me hard. With the guaranteed estate on top, a single +2 cards is not going to bring you to $6. He got an explorer, which I thought was also not so good, but my own strategy was even worse. Also, with Bank in play it is probably ok. I lost hard on this one.
game4 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-185335-c995d52c.html): allfail 79- WW 52
Important cards: Fairgrounds, Tunnel, Cartographer, Masquerade. This board is FG-friendly, with lots of card one might integrate to a deck without sacrificing too much. We both opened Masq+silver. While WW's draw on the combo Cartographer+Tunnel wasn't so great, I feel getting the Tunnel early is actually a mistake. The chance of Cartographer finding the tunnel in the 4 cards is less than 1/3. Since gold can be reached with Masq quite easily, I feel getting a dead card early in exchange for the chance of extra golds isn't really worth it. I think WW also erred on getting his first Province early (maybe desperate on his draw?)
game5 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-190254-cd18bd5e.html): WW 45- allfail 32
Important card: Witch
I don't know why I am always punished by trying to play a luck-dependent game. Last round when I didn't veto swindler I didn't draw my two swindlers in turn 3 and 4. In this game I didn't veto witch, and WW got an impeccable draw. While his draw probably halted a bit afterwards to let me split the curse 6-4; the golds he accumulated is more than enough for a lopsided game.
game6 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-191419-6846ae9b.html): allfail 86- WW 57
Important cards: Colony, Treasure Map, Warehouse
I felt pretty sorry about this game. WW should probably have won. Being mad at the witch in the last game, I vetoed her without second thought. I didn't notice the obvious TM+Warehouse combo and opened conspirator. (Thinking of something like warehouse-warehouse-conspirator...? quite far fetched) After I saw WW's opening, I thought I had already lost. Somehow it was still not too late to get TMs, and I even triggered mine earlier than his. A couple of good draws immediately after (3 plats in 3 consecutive turns, with my w-w-c combo actually worked!) pretty much sealed the game for me.
game7 (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-192343-4867ce82.html): WW 48- allfail 30
Important cards: Wharf, Pawn, Stables, Inn
We both opened Wharf+Pawn. I did second think about the Pawn, but it seems to me early blind draw +1 coin +1 card is probably not that bad. He got another wharf at turn 4, where I stuck at $4 for both my turns after the first shuffle, since I have drawn the pawn dead... I got more silvers so I switched to stables, hoping to align my draws more consistently. For this board I am not sure how to play a Wharf engine: the village is too expensive. WW was playing mostly Wharf+BM I think; nevertheless, he also seized a good chance at turn 6, not playing his Wharf, only to let his newly bought inn to be shuffled with the two wharves in the discard pile. With the nice draw from the two wharves, he got 3 golds. The game is pretty much over by then.
Overall this is a very close series, each of us had his own share of good/bad luck. I was outplayed without excuses in the first two games I lost though; WanderingWinder is the worthy winner. Wish you best of luck in your next round!
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WanderingWinder over allfail (his handle here is timchen) 4-3 in a very very tense match, thief bracket.
Video commentary on each of the games is up here: http://www.livestream.com/wanderingwinder
There may be some periods of silence and I'm not talking as long as I'd like, because I was extremely focused on the match. I also hope the background noise isn't too bad, but there were a couple other things going on at home last night.
For future recordings, I'm going to try to try and up the quality a little more to see if things can get clearer, but I think you can basically make things up even as is, though you might want to go full screen.
Game 1: WW 39 - allfail 27 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-181635-6c5ce306.html
Interesting little game. He goes for Horse Traders/Fool's Gold. I go for Remake/silver. And my plan to buy an embargo right after he buys the first fool's gold (which I thought very probable) work's out very nicely, with me getting the embargo down on fool's gold while he has 3 of them. I think that was pretty much game, but he fought on rather valiantly, using hagglers to pick up fool's golds on gains. I'm pretty proud of this one.
Game 2: WW 25 - allfail 30 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-182435-a3d54d73.html
I go for chapel/bureaucrat. He goes for bureaucrat+money. Well, I get a touch unlucky with the early chapelling, but more I get unlucky in my final reshuffle by not hitting any of my money until it's too late... I really don't understand why he started buying duchies so early here, but I guess it worked out for him in the end? Expands also helped him a lot. I don't have a great feel for that card.
Game 3: WW 78 - allfail 62 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-184036-beb3f8ef.html
A really weak board. I go for Fortune Teller into Explorer into some inn/bank/expand stuff. Man, I really don't know what to do with expands. He goes for some shanty town/inn/golem thing with an expand eventually. I really don't get it a ton. It's a slow as molasses game, but I don't really know what to do better here.
Game 4: WW 52 - allfail 79 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-185335-c995d52c.html
I'm totally outplayed this game. I do the exact thing I say is a bad, trappy strategy and go for some cartographer/tunnel thing. Did I ever mention that tunnel's reaction is something I really really don't have down? I probably shouldn't tell you guys all my weaknesses. Oh well. Anyway, it doesn't help that I can't get a gold off the thing for a few reshuffles. He plays... basically what I think is the right strategy here, masq+money, dip for monument, and cover to squelch my fairgrounds in time.
Game 5: WW 45 - allfail 32 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-190254-cd18bd5e.html
A witch game. I actually pick up walled village very nicely here (It's the first time I was actually happy that my village was walled). Anyway, probably mostly due to luck (his witch misses its first reshuffle), I win the curse war 6-4, at which point I soon have more points and a better deck. And I go gardens, which is key in most cursing games, to really slam the door. I think I might have played slightly better than him here, but I'd be lying if I didn't say this one was largely luck.
Game 6: WW 57 - allfail 86 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-191419-6846ae9b.html
Big lopsided loss, and I actually think I outplayed him. I go for warehouse/Treasure map, he opens warehouse/conspirator and then goes for treasure maps as soon as he sees what I've done. And he gets them to go off first, giving him a whole turn advantage on top of his first turn advantage by midway through the game, simply on the shuffle. That's how things go, though.
I want to mention that I'm not entirely sure conspirator stuff isn't the way to go here (though I don't think it is), but if you want that, I think you want to workshop into it and grab a whole bunch of conspirators and warehouses and maybe an oasis or village or something pretty quick. But without the card draw, I think it'll be a little tough.
Game 7: WW 48 - allfail 30 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111223-192343-4867ce82.html
We both open Pawn/Wharf. I'm not sure nothing/wharf isn't better. Anyway, I play the pawn and get 5 on turn 4, he plays the wharf, drawing the pawn, and getting only 4. I'm really proud of my turn 6, where instead of playing pawn for something more normal (with an action) and then playing wharf, I play pawn for card and money, drawing a copper that's the last card in my deck, buying an inn and shuffling it and two wharves back on top. Not sure about my turn 8 decision to buy two golds instead of, say, province and silver. allfail goes for wharf into some stables thing. I just don't like stables so much, and especially not here. Anyway, I think I probably played a bit inaccurately, because it was turn 19 for me to get 5 provinces, 4 duchy, 6 estate, and that seems a bit slow compared to even BM/Wharf. I dunno, maybe not. Incidentally, I got a little paranoid and spooked on turn 15, where a double province for him would win. Well, I really didn't think he could do it really, but... oooh it had me scared for a second.
Anyway, it was a very very tense match for me overall, well-played by both sides. And first player won every game, bu I don't think actual first-player advantage was a huge huge factor here. Thanks to timchen for the excellent match and making my frightened as fright.
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Hey! It's quite interesting that we commented on so many things in common! :P
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quasi 1 Hurr http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-161443-1fd78d70.html
Er, kind of embarrassing. I think we had the same strategy in mind, he just got his running much much much quicker than me. I welcome your thoughts on openings here: his loan/bridge opening trounced my silver/potion. I was worried about getting to 7 for king's court, without which there were no actions. Margrave was probably not a great move either.
Not sure what that strategy is? The KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge combo? In its pure form it's probably not a good idea here with such weak trashing, but a kind-of mixed megaturn (like the one actually played) might do well.
If you're worried about getting to 7 and KC, why the Potion opening? That potion is counterproductive for getting to 7.
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Chapel division
ARTjoMS vs. Jimmy Jimmy 4-2
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Since game 3 seems to have stumped WW and Allfail, I'll suggest that it could be a very interesting and unusual kingdom. With the choice of coppersmith or bank, inn or golem, it might actually have a variety of strong counting house strategies. Not only that but the fortune teller becomes a very strong attack against deck management for the counting house. Now that's a kingdom that you don't see every day!
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Since game 3 seems to have stumped WW and Allfail, I'll suggest that it could be a very interesting and unusual kingdom. With the choice of coppersmith or bank, inn or golem, it might actually have a variety of strong counting house strategies. Not only that but the fortune teller becomes a very strong attack against deck management for the counting house. Now that's a kingdom that you don't see every day!
We actually discussed going for counting house. But I don't think it's gonna be very good here. I actually think I played fairly close to optimally, except the more I think about it, I don't think expand is the way to go near as much as I did.
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I win yet again 4-3, this time against mith.
Turambar 45 mith 34:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-070734-be0b37e2.html
Turambar 9 mith 34:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-071531-a0b16fb4.html
Turambar 65 mith 88:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-072425-85e3ab03.html
Turambar 48 mith 31:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-072936-4dc09c1b.html
Turambar 43 mith 21:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-073448-eccef2e3.html
Turambar 27 mith 40:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-073804-a62b5bb4.html
Turambar 68 mith 52:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-074240-eced5c72.html
Thx for the games!
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Game 1 was an ugly Saboteur game. I probably overbought the Saboteurs lacking a better plan, and struggled to get to 6 for Gold and later 8. While I tried to catch up on the Provinces and Duchies, he was able to grab a bunch of Estates and a couple Fairgrounds for a comfortable win.
Game 2 I think I had the better build here anyway, but the score became lopsided when I discarded his Tactician twice with Oracle, and then his Tacticians collided after he bought a second. Scrying Pool/Bazaar/Woodcutter are the key cards, with Remodel to speed up the endgame.
Game 3 had some power cards, and I think we both got a little lost with them since it was a Colony game. I went Ironworks/Island with Hunting Party (eventually gaining a bunch of Caravans after I had all the Islands, and a couple Worker's Villages for +Buy), he went Jack with a few Hunting Parties and mostly money. The Islands gave me a nice lead, and got rid of the junk nicely to keep my deck running despite the money disparity. I don't feel like what I tried was a bad plan, but I'm sure there's something better here.
Game 4 was another Jack game, this time with doubleJack as the obvious optimal play... so naturally I decided to try some ridiculous Festival/Watchtower/Nobles build instead. I was planning to grab a few Goons for a big turn late, but doubleJack is just too fast, and of course the Goons I did buy just helped him.
Game 5 was Masquerade... I tried for the Possession, but hit 5P three times and he was able to Remodel his Masquerade away the turn before I finally got there. Probably wasn't worth trying even if my luck had been better.
Game 6 was Remake into Wharf, and I had all the luck here, hitting Provinces turns 8-11, 13, and 15 with a single Gold and Wharf. (Incidentally, this was my 2500th game of Dominion, so I will credit my luck to that.)
Game 7 revealed a massive blind-spot for Duke... His first shuffle was a bit better, getting a Jester and a Stash while I took a second Monument with my Jester... in any other game, that might have been ok, as I got a small lead on VP tokens and then had better luck buying Provinces. But while I took a 4-2 split there and was feeling confident, I had two turns stuck on 4 (once because of a Monument collision), which allowed him to get a crucial 6-2 split in the Duchies, and trounce me with Duke, which I hadn't even noticed until the Duchies ran out.
Thanks for the games, Turambar, and good luck. :)
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I agree with your comments mith. The first game I don't really know why i won, or how I should play. Weird game.
The third game I played really badly, opening double jack(wishing I'd read how double jack does in colony games), but then (for some reason) started buying hunting parties. Naturally this didn't work out.
The last game dukes wasn't even my plan, but when I hit 7/6/5 when you bought provinces, early duchies was my only chance, while hoping my deck could survive it. Luckily it did.
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Okay guys, I am done. Luck was not on my side today, RisingJaguar managed to beat me 4:3 in some good games. I will comment when he hopefully writes his little report 8)
Well played RisingJaguar, you dealt me more losses than in the whole rounds before together ;)
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Witch Division: RisingJaguar (#12) vs. painted_cow (#1)
All games were played under identical hands, veto mode and point counter. Sorry about the slight delay on posting the game logs. Here are the summaries, I'm gonna try to add in my thoughts along with key points/decisions I made. Feel free to comment on my game, I would love that.
First Game: RJ 16 - PC 24 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-121554-f6820cfb.html
This game would've been much difference with the presences of Dukes/Gardens but both were vetoed. I played the game like Ambassador to BM and was in the lead half way through. PC noticed this and started to buy oasis and scrying pools despite a lack of a +buy. My BM was not fast enough and his engine was so strong, i ended up with all 10 curses. This was a devastating loss because i felt i was ahead half way through and yet loss so decisively to his stellar play.
Second Game: RJ 35 - PC 48 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-122756-1c4f6ae3.html
The promiment card in this game was the minion but with my early $6/$4, I decided to switch over to courtyard/BM. I jumped out to a quick lead like BM normally does, however Minions blew up courtyards' ability and my BM idea fell threw in the end. Down to a quick 2-0 defecit where I had first turn twice, I did not feel good.
Third Game: RJ 40 - PC 14 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-123938-03550942.html
I remember looking at his popular buys previous to the matches and seeing his best win rate when available was crossroads. The deciding choices happened early in the game. First was PC's choice of Militia/crossroads which he quickly admitted was the wrong choice, the second was not going double militia and relying on black markets. Granted black markets could have gotten some good cards but i feel militia was great against the many crossroads. This was a pretty decisive win and made me feel good again.
Fourth game: PC 41 - RJ 65 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-125459-49eaf970.html (Thanks WW for noticing)
This was primarily a goons game. Going first definitely had its edges to help me win this game. The two things I did differently (which is kinda one thing) were buying border villages and terminals. I think this helped me in my favour because i was able to do a couple more things with my cards, but I'm not super sure. The 7 apothecaries I built up allowed me to manage my deck much better and avoid terminals clashing
Fifth game: PC 46 - RJ 41 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-132014-32177cee.html
I'm not really sure how to explain this game. Cities became relevant with the rush towards islands, and then it was a rush to build super decks through horn of plenty. I'm sure painted_cow could provide a lot more insight, he did a lot better managing his deck and knowing the limitations of my deck throughout the match where as I often followed his buys which was sure to lose. Watch turn 14 onwards to see all the action.
Sixth game: RJ wins http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-133538-369b182b.html
This is where my luck really shined. I was able to get turn 6 forge without any silver/gold purchases with the help of apothecary. Then in turns 8-9 I was able to trash all 8 coppers in my deck to shrink it to nothing. Black market also helped a lot spewing me cards like menagerie, wharf, goons (after he vetoed it), torturer while he got nothing special. I felt really bad with all these perfect turns, but I'll take it!
Seventh game: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/27/game-20111227-134618-2cc82374.html
This was by far the closest and intense game. Our plans were very similar as you can see by the final card count. It was based off of fishing villages/monuments and drawing cards with watchtower.
The first 14 turns were a race for provinces, with PC drawing blood on the first two but I eventually caught up to 3-3 and even on points (or PC is up by 1?)
Then it became a game of gaining as many points as possible with the duchy run, I never reached $8 but PC reached it twice in turns 18/19... He spent a lot of time thinking on both but I would have won on points if i were to get the province next turn, and that is a horrible way to lose.
After the duchies were gone, great halls looked to be the third pile to be eliminated. I took an estate on turn 20 for that reason since there were only two great halls left, and would have allowed him to get $3 for the win. Turn 21, PC had $6 with a watchtower in hand while being ahead by 1 point. Instead of going the normal low VPs, he goes for the gold. I luckily draw the perfect card, workshop and, is able to spin the 1 point deficit into the one point victory!
This was an intense set for me with some real lengthy decisions made. At one point, PC said he could actually make me resign (The Cities match) because I took so long. PC was probably the better player today but I squeaked out the win. I reached Top 8!
Edit: I will leave councilroom logs for games games 4,5,7 if you'd like to follow along with the score as well (and better understand our play at the time.
Game 4: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111227-125459-49eaf970.html
Game 5: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111227-132014-32177cee.html
Game 7: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111227-134618-2cc82374.html
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One quick comment before I look again more closely (and unfortunately, it's a boring one): your link to the 4th game takes you to the 3rd game again.
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Thief Division, Fabian (2) beats TheO_Ravenheart (26) 4-1
Game 1 Fabian 27 - 18 Ravenheart (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/28/game-20111228-075859-fae752d3.html)
A Fool's Gold game. We both open Remodel/Fool's Gold, but I manage to get 6 of them as Raven picks up a Bridge on turn 3 that ends up never being used. A Smithy and some green cards later, I win comfortably with 5 Provinces and 2 Duchies on turn 15. Oh, and a Gold too.
Game 2 Fabian 43 - 37 Ravenheart (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/28/game-20111228-081137-fa1d5f3a.html)
A Governor game. We both open Silver/Oracle, but Raven has terrible shuffle luck on the first few turns and falls behind pretty badly. My shuffle luck in the mid/endgame seems pretty bad too, but it's not enough to make it super close in the end. 5 Provinces 3 Duchies and a bonus Estate this time, by turn 15. Fast cards!
Game 3 Fabian 18 - 1 Ravenheart (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/28/game-20111228-082613-a8c1176c.html)
We both open Sea Hag/Chapel on a pretty scary looking board. My plan of skipping Silver, instead picking up a few Hamlets and buying Fool's Golds while trashing my deck works very well, and I never feel very threatened. A few semi-interesting late game decisions come up with 1 Fool's Gold left, only a few Cities, and an empty Curse pile, but I buy a few green cards to stay comfortably ahead on points, and when Raven empties the Fool's Gold pile to power up his Cities, I can buy the last two Cities on my turn to end the game.
Game 4 Fabian 24 - 31 Ravenheart (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/28/game-20111228-083444-1bf06015.html)
A Minion game. His Lookout goes a long way to winning this game for him, as he manages to comfortably buy Provinces every turn in the midgame with an economy of 5 Minion, a few Lighthouses and a few Copper, while my deck is struggling despite having stronger cards. I feel like I had pretty bad luck in this game, but I guess that's only fair by this time in the match. I almost manage a comeback after Raven (possibly) gets greedy and trashes a Province rather than a Minion in the midgame, but after buying the penultimate Province 1 point behind and having a Lighthouse'd $8 for the next turn, Raven gets to $8 too.
Game 5 Fabian 59 - 54 Ravenheart (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/28/game-20111228-085103-0557e55b.html)
Kind of a weird game. I open Silver/Remake while Raven opens Silver/Envoy. My idea is to trash away my crap while getting a Tactician and start buying Platinums and stuff, pretty standard. It doesn't quite work out though, as I don't get to $5 until turn 7, and after that not until turn 12. I guess that's what buying 2 Remakes and trashing your Coppers does, huh. Instead, my deck becomes this weird semi-thin thing consisting mostly of.. Silver. And an Envoy, and a few Remakes, and a Tactician. Meanwhile Raven has a Scheme/Tactician thing going on where he buys a couple Platinums every other turn, or something. I figured I was losing horribly, but my deck proves good enough to squeak by since his deck takes half the amount of turns. I still had to hope his Scheme/Scheme/Scheme/Envoy/Tactician/x (6 cards because of Council Room) hand couldn't buy a Colony on his second-to-last turn of the game (he got to $10), and that his Scheme/Scheme/Scheme/Envoy/x hand couldn't buy Colony on his last turn (he got to $9). I had an interesting choice on MY second-to-last turn, too; I had Silver/Silver/Tactician/Council Room/Envoy and sat for a full 90 seconds trying to figure out if I would draw $7 on my 4 cards or not. In the end I played Tactician (again hoping his Scheme/etc hand couldn't get to $11) - as it turns out, the first 4 cards I draw are 3 Silver and Royal Seal, which would have put me at $12. Luckily, the Tactician play works out too!
Some pretty intense games, and I'm reasonably happy with how I played. Thanks to Ravenheart for the games!
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@Fabian: game 4 you destroyed your own Minion/Lighthouse engine by going for Hoard. I'm not saying it's bad because 5 Minions might stall when greening, but you could have bought more Lighthouses over Hoard to keep the engine...
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Okay, now some of my ideas to the games:
G1: I really hate going Amb/Amb, but with being second player I took the risk. I even more hate Amb/bigmoney, and you see why this is so. If the other can draw his deck like whole mid to late game you will win most of the times.
G2: I expected a Minion Mirror, therefor I got a Jester first. When RJ went BigMoney I thought at first, that it could turn out troublesome because Jester sucks in this matchup, but giving him a Curse first really helped there.
G3: Nothing to add then I SUCK. I just did not finish my thoughts about openings dreaming of Peddlers already, but man, this was embarassing. Not getting to 5 anytime soon didnt made this better.
G4: I didnt like the idea of many terminal carddraw along the goons (where you will need a huge amount of villages to get the engine started). Besides being first this time I got the Goons later, played them later (besides one drawing dead by RJ because of his carddraw). I did thought that I might even lose with more points between us.
G5: Really complicated Endgame decissions about who can end etc. We both went a while in thinktank, but all in all one could not really know how much the other is getting with Farmland and Horn of Plenty shenangians and lots of carddraw. Being player 1 gave me this win I think.
G6: Dominion just sucks sometimes. I played Black Market much earlier and got the holy crap 3 times, while he just opens the nuts. T6 Forge was basically gg.
G7: Doing nothing in the beginning like in G6 was really annoying, being stucked at 2. First player advantage was just gone. Drawing 5 terminals without any Fishing Villages in T16 made me literally cry, as it was the deciding phase of the game. That RJ got his Workshop in the last turn as well sealed the deal here.
I was really speechless after this series. One game I threw away (g3), but getting 2 losses out of the last 2 games decided in such a way annoyed me a bit :-\
Nonetheless RJ played some really good Dominion starting from G3 onwards.
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Guy Srinivasan and toaster have arranged to play on Sunday.
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Chapel Division
Result will be shown after this analysis ....
Game 1 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-101905-62ca8d36.html)
Young Witch game with no $5, so after we opened Young Witch/Loan I bought a Potion and went Apothecary/Golem. olneyce bought a few silvers, but that didn't help reaching $6 at all, not so surprising since he would have a 4-card hand from YW. While he struggled with money, I set up a decent Golem engine and even grabbed a Gold before he did. He tried to get Potion later, but that was too late, and I was able to eat all 8 Provinces ! result : First 57-17
Game 2 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-104029-e3f4eccb.html)
Worker's Village with Peddler. I usually open WV, but Remake distracted me, so the game was over after he bought 3 Peddlers in one turn. result : olneyce 45-33
Game 3 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-105258-7f98b43d.html)
Tactician game. I got a big lead for a long time thanks to good draw, but then ... I miscalculated ! I had $12 but I thought it was $13, so I bought a Province and then, sadly after realizing that mistake, Estate. He had a Tactician turn two turns after and able to bought the last two Provinces with exactly $16. I couldn't even get $5 before he played Tactician, because I couldn't draw any of my Golds on those turns. result : olneyce 30-28
Game 4 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-110214-fdea4a88.html)
Vault game. Then to our surprise Chapel appeared as the bane for Young Witch in Black Market ... and worse, olneyce ALWAYS drew Chapel after playing Vault. I had lucky Chapel hands with 4 coppers and 3 coppers + estate, two Estates left just in case of Province tie breaker. result : First 36-23
Game 5 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-111529-d71a176f.html)
Engine game - TR, Festival, Vault, Mining Village, Council Room, Festival. We both went for Nobles first, then I got several engine cards while olneyce chose Big Money. olneyce grabbed a few Provinces early while I had a decent Fairgrounds deck. But then ... I trashed my only Mining Village in the last turn and was down to 14 different cards ! 14 points lost ! but, well, what's done is done. result : olneyce 56-55
Game 6 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-113747-c027fae2.html)
I love this board - Highway, Menagerie, Hamlet, Remake, Scheme. We both opened Scheme/Remake, wishing to trim our deck down as fast as possible. However, he was too busy trashing coppers while I grabbed 3 Highways early against his 1. My Highway lead brought me along the way, and I ended the game on piles. result : First 21-10
Game 7 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html)
So it came down to the last game ! I thought it was a boring board at first. Witch, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Develop. But then, he taught me a new trick: opening Develop/Spice Merchant, and then developing SM to Witch and Scheme ! very neat trick, and it was the first time I saw it. He cursed me hard, and finished with Stashes/Adventurer for a gauranteed Province each reshuffle. result: olneyce 36-19
Final result - olneyce 4:3 First
I can't believe I made calculation mistake in game 3 and stupid mistake in game 5 ! Thanks for a tense series (and neat trick in game 7) . Congratulation olneyce for advancing to the next round, and hope I could get a revenge series next tournament.
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Round 5: olneyce (8 seed) vs. First (4 seed) in the Chapel division
With the help of some decent play and a whole lot of dumb luck, olneyce wins 4-3. We played with veto mode, identical starting hands, and point counter.
Game 1: First 57 – 17 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-101905-62ca8d36.html
Key cards: Young Witch, Apothecary, Golem, Crossroads
I just got crushed in this game. First got a potion, picked up an Apothecary and Golem, and cruised to big hands. I fiddled around with Crossroads, trying to get Harems to fuel them, and failing miserably. I bought silvers, too, which was a big mistake in a game with no $5 cards – which First pointed out and I had not ever really considered. He bought all 8 Provinces, that’s how badly I lost.
Game 2: olneyce 45 – 33 First
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-104029-e3f4eccb.html
Key cards: Peddler, Worker’s Village, Hunting Party, Remake
I open Watchtower/Worker’s Village, hoping to buy an early Hunting Party and then be able to play my 3 actions, and score an early double-Peddler buy. Which is precisely what happens. Turns 6 and 7 are both Peddler/Peddler/Hunting Party buys. First uses his Watchtower and Remake to trash his deck down quickly, but my significant edge in the Peddler race (and the ability to Remake Peddlers into Platinums) is decisive. I probably took one turn too long engine-building, but he couldn’t grab enough Colonies to prevent me from coming back.
Game 3: First 28 – 30 olneyce
Key cards: Tactician, Apothecary, Courtyard
A Tactician mirror game. He hit his three times in the first seven turns, which is huge. I took a detour to buy a Potion and then Apothecaries. I think that was almost certainly a mistake, but it did allow me to draw two huge hands on turns 11 and 14. I was positive I was going to lose, but my Apothecary got me up to $16 on the last turn, allowing me to buy the last two Provinces. If he could have just bought a Duchy on either of his last two turns, it would have gone beyond my reach.
Game 4: First 36 – 23 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-110214-fdea4a88.html
Key cards: Vault, Chapel
Chapel showed up as the bane to the Young Witch in the Black Market deck, so we both opened Vault/Chapel. He quickly trashed bad cards and bought good ones. I, meanwhile, drew my Vault and Chapel together every single time in the entire game. You can tell how that ends.
Game 5: olneyce 56 – 55 First
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-111529-d71a176f.html
Key cards: Fairgrounds, Vault, Nobles, Mining Village
This game belongs in the ‘Dear My Opponent: I’m Sorry’ section. I got for early Mining Villages, to use with Vault and Nobles. He goes for Fairgrounds. I have a big lead in the mid-game, but once he gets to 15 cards, he’s able to quickly catch up with 6-point Fairgrounds. I hoped to buy out the Provinces before he could get the whole thing going, but wasn’t successful. So that’s a clean victory for First – except that on his final turn he trashed a Mining Village to get the $2, but it was his only Mining Village. That reduced him to 14 unique cards, stealing 14 points. Meaning I won by one point. Ouch.
Game 6: First 21 – 10 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-113747-c027fae2.html
Key cards: Highway, Menagerie, Hamlet, Remake
He gets his engine set up earlier and better. We both make stupid mistakes toward the end, getting confused by Highway interactions, or forgetting where stuff is in the deck. But his construction is more than enough to ensure a victory. I was too focused on trashing my deck down - which prevented me from actually buying the crucial Highways. I think I could have done something with my turn 10, but I'm still not sure what it would be.
Game 7: olneyce 36 – 19 First
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html
Key cards: Witch, Develop, Scheme, Adventurer, Stash
I buy Explorer, Adventurer, Develop, Thief, and Stash. In the final game of the fifth round of the tournament. And win. Yay for weak cards! I open Develop/Spice Merchant and First comments that Develop is terrible for trashing. I then immediately Develop my Spice Merchant into a Witch and Scheme. Which lets me dish out two curses before the second reshuffle. I won the curse race 7/3 thanks to my Schemed Witches. At that point, since there was absolutely no engine potential, it was simply a matter of accumulating money and getting it all together into one hand. Stash is obviously helpful there, as is Adventurer and (to a lesser extent) Thief.
I got absolutely walloped in the games that I lost, and should have lost game 5 too. I only really played well in games 2 and 7. But that’s the nature of the competition, I guess. And luck has a way of running out eventually...
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Game 7: olneyce 36 – 19 First
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html)
Key cards: Witch, Develop, Scheme, Adventurer, Stash
I buy Explorer, Adventurer, Develop, Thief, and Stash. In the final game of the fifth round of the tournament. And win. Yay for weak cards! I open Develop/Spice Merchant and First comments that Develop is terrible for trashing. I then immediately Develop my Spice Merchant into a Witch and Scheme. Which lets me dish out two curses before the second reshuffle. I won the curse race 7/3 thanks to my Schemed Witches. At that point, since there was absolutely no engine potential, it was simply a matter of accumulating money and getting it all together into one hand. Stash is obviously helpful there, as is Adventurer and (to a lesser extent) Thief.
So, is Develop/Random $4 on a Scheme/Mountebank or Scheme/Witch board worth the 65% risk or so that they don't collide? Or was this an anomaly?
On 2/3 of boards, you have one bad opening card and hopefully one not that bad opening card. On 1/3 of boards, you have a basically unstoppable topdecked pair of cards.
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Game 7: olneyce 36 – 19 First
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-115627-927fa68e.html)
Key cards: Witch, Develop, Scheme, Adventurer, Stash
I buy Explorer, Adventurer, Develop, Thief, and Stash. In the final game of the fifth round of the tournament. And win. Yay for weak cards! I open Develop/Spice Merchant and First comments that Develop is terrible for trashing. I then immediately Develop my Spice Merchant into a Witch and Scheme. Which lets me dish out two curses before the second reshuffle. I won the curse race 7/3 thanks to my Schemed Witches. At that point, since there was absolutely no engine potential, it was simply a matter of accumulating money and getting it all together into one hand. Stash is obviously helpful there, as is Adventurer and (to a lesser extent) Thief.
So, is Develop/Random $4 on a Scheme/Mountebank or Scheme/Witch board worth the 65% risk or so that they don't collide? Or was this an anomaly?
On 2/3 of boards, you have one bad opening card and hopefully one not that bad opening card. On 1/3 of boards, you have a basically unstoppable topdecked pair of cards.
I've been trying to play around with Develop more and usually it doesn't work. I hadn't seen the Scheme/Curser iteration yet but it looked pretty strong. I played an earlier tournament game with Develop/Ill-Gotten Gains that was also really powerful.
It seems like if you draw the Develop with Coppers and Estates, you can at the very least turn an Estate into a Scheme which will then get you double-plays on your $4 card. In this case, getting two quick Spice Merchant plays wouldn't have been too bad. Especially given the lack of engine-potential on the board - no one was ever going to play double Witches
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shark_bait (7) over ARTjoMS (6) in an 8 game series
The games were played !familiar with identical start and no point counter.
Game 1: shark_bait 35 - ARTjoMS 31 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-091604-b07dae44.html)
Key Cards: Hunting Party, Remake, Ill Gotten Gains, Farmland, Bridge
We both open remake silver and proceed to trim our decks. ARTjoMS stops for a few Ill Gotten Gains while I buy up hunting parties figuring with the cycling I can trash the curses just as fast as they come if he decides to go for the rush. In turn 14, ART mistakenly trashes his gold for no gain thinking that he was trashing it for a province, but really he just trashed it as the second card of his remake. With no point counter on, ART buys the last province and takes the loss.
Game 2: shark_bait 27 - ARTjoMS 27 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-092001-3c5bc036.html)
Key Cards: Rabble, Upgrade, Pawn, Bank
With both of us having a 5/2 start, he plays a straight Rabble/BM game (opening Rablle/nothing) while I go Upgrade/Pawn. I pick up another upgrade and at some point, trash it for a gold. We each get 4 provinces and a snag a duchy to keep the score even.
Game 3: shark_bait 31 - ARTjoMS 24 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-092734-81af1853.html)
Key Cards: Remake, Haven, Black Market, Apprentice
I take a risk opening with Black Market/Remake while ARTjoMS plays it safe with Remake/Silver. The main goody in the BM deck was the KC. I pick up a fishing village at turn 6 and that's all I got. Although it still helped me in a small way. Turn 8 I was able to play BM and play my treasure and then play remake trashing only my estate for a silver while still having enough to purchase a gold. ARTjoMS buys the penultimate province after I had made two duchy purchases hoping that I wouldn't have a province buy. That wasn't the case and I grabbed the victory.
Game 4: shark_bait 39 - ARTjoMS 52 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-093453-462cd942.html)
Key Cards: Upgrade, Cache, Warehouse, Moneylender
Divergent strategies! He opens upgrade/nothing while I go cache/cellar. I was hoping to make good use of the extra coppers with moneylender, but it isn't really fast enough. ARTjoMS got a warehouse much ealier than me and that probably made one of the biggest differences. He was able to play his upgrade frequently getting a trim deck quite quickly. He rode that deck to a relatively easy victory.
Game 5: shark_bait 26 - ARTjoMS 35 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-094534-294c021e.html)
Key Cards: Tournament, Border Village, Wharf, Tactician, Peddler
We both open Tournament/Silver and I pick up a tactician and wharf through the first reshuffle. I try to get a province ASAP for the tournament, I get one, but at the cost of missing a play of my tactician. I manage to get followers, but his engine overwhelms my early lead. He picked up a slew of wharves, border villages, and peddlers, proceeding to finish the game on his terms.
Game 6: shark_bait 28 - ARTjoMS 26 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-095721-7b5b847e.html)
Key Cards: Swindler, Mountebank, Warehouse, Hoard, et. al.
Tournament and envoy were both in play, but they were not the focal point of this game. This game was a brutal game featuring the swindler and the mountebank. My swindler was a bit more effective early game, but he manages a 6-4 curse split. I was able to get to gold earlier than he was and proceeded to build a small lead with hoard. Then, his swindler hits a duchy on the 2nd to last turn. There is one province left and I'm trying to think if I still win by buying the last province. I take it and sneak away with the victory.
Game 7: shark_bait 49 - ARTjoMS 74 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-100417-ba448a75.html)
Key Cards: Militia, Torturer, Colony/Platinum
Any good fortune I had in the prior games completely left for this game. His Militia hits a CCCC,Cutpurse on turn 3 and I have two dead turns with all 3 estates on turns 4 and 6. ARTjoMS got the first platinum on turn 7 and the game progresses into an easy win for him.
Game 8: shark_bait 29 - ARTjoMS 11 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-101407-eb318763.html)
Key Cards: Goons, Workers Village, Masquerade, Watchtower
We both open Masquerade/Silver and we both go for the same strategy using the cards mentioned above. ARTjoMS manages to get 2 goons before I get my first, but during that time, I picked up watchtowers and workers villages. At one point, he passed me a watchtower after a goons/masquerade combo. I think the watchtower advantage was the big difference in this game. I was able to recover from anytime he played goons by keeping a workers village and watchtower in hand.
Thanks to ARTjoMS for the fun tense series!
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So, is Develop/Random $4 on a Scheme/Mountebank or Scheme/Witch board worth the 65% risk or so that they don't collide? Or was this an anomaly?
I think it's a very valid tactic although like most hinterlands cards you've got to get value from cards all ways round. I don't even think it has to be a killer punch like scheme/mountebank. Just putting a strong 5 cost card and silver on top of your deck could be a game winner.
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Quasi (2) versus v3ck (23) in the Witch division:
quasi 74 v3ck 55 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-190140-29d69f0c.html
basically vanilla big money with envoy. i go first, probably ill-advisedly buy an upgrade.
quasi 27 v3ck 30 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-190627-4549c313.html
another big money game. i open masquerade/silver against militia/lookout, and lose.
quasi 33 v3ck 40 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-191106-ef5ed103.html
another big money game. i open double swindler against swindler/warehouse. he got a key swindle of gold to adventurer which ended up hurting.
quasi 34 v3ck 33 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-191439-ccb93433.html
I open silver/chapel against silver/masquerade. Get great shuffles in the beginning and open a huge lead. Then i mismanage things a little bit at the end and squeak out the win.
quasi 39 v3ck 33 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-191801-61658898.html
another big money game. we both pick up a couple shanty towns as labs, and he buys some treasuries when he had 5 but nothing exciting.
quasi 68 v3ck http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/29/game-20111229-192304-8bb098ed.html
In a match of mostly boring games, this one was slight less boring. Sort of hoped v3ck would fall into the trap of opening ambassador, but we both go for a lot of jacks, into a hybrid gardens strategy. Maybe a dedicated colony deck would have won, but I don't know.
Overall: quasi 4-2 over v3ck. Thanks for the games.
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Militia is a strong counter against Masquerade (but open Militia/Silver instead of Militia/Lookout because he's not building an engine)
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Thief Division, Fabian (2) beats roku (14) 4 games to 1.
Game 1 Fabian 20 - 21 roku (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-023957-df666a3c.html)
A pretty stacked Colony board with Young Witch, Mountebank, Minion, Governor, Grand Market, King's Court and stuff. We both open Young Witch/Trade Route (the bane card), and do somewhat normal things. We both favor Governor after buying a few Mountebanks. roku has a small lead in the midgame, mostly thanks to getting to $7 for a King's Court. Then his King's Court and Mountebank collides with 3 Curses left in the pile. Then a few turns later, they collide again, giving me 3 Copper at least. The game is kinda close in the end, as I buy a Colony and try to go for a quick 3-pile ending, buying out the Governors and working on the Trade Route pile. It almost works, but his King's Court shows up yet again on the final turn (score is 20-20, 2 Trade Route left) to do a triple Trade Route for the Trade Route/Trade Route/Estate buy to end it.
Game 2 Fabian 39 - 36 roku (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-024617-6a2c3a71.html)
roku goes BM with a Council Room, I open Salvager/Silver and get a Jester and a Council Room eventually. Whether ignoring Salvager is good or not, I can't say, but I felt ok during the game. Of course, going first helps in this type of game. When down 27-26 with $10 and two buys I decide to buy Duchy+Duchy instead of Province+Estate, as I fear his Council Room might get him the last Province+Estate to win by 1 point, and I don't really want a draw anyway (should he buy Province and nothing else). He fearlessely buys the penultimate Province anyway, and after I Salvage a Duchy to buy the last Duchy, he's ahead by 3 points and 1 Province left, so it all comes down to who draws $8 first. I get $10 on my second turn after that.
Game 3 Fabian 5 - -1 roku (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-025242-cc446520.html)
University/Vineyard with lots of cantrips. Or so I thought. Turns out the game is quicker than that, as we both aggressively Witch and buy out University. He wins the curse war 6-4 and he gets 6 University to my 4, and his deck is better in pretty much every way. He doesn't seem to notice that the Stables pile is emptying pretty quickly though, and I steal a win by Farmlanding away a Curse for an Estate, and before he finds a Potion to buy ~6 point Vineyards, the match is over with my double Univeristy draw. roku said after we were done that this game was his regret, as he felt he played badly and should have won. I agree that he should have won this game.
Game 4 Fabian 50 - -100 roku (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-025641-d5f23bca.html)
Very quick and straightforward game. We both open Silver/Masquerade, and we both go for Ventures very aggressively. I get the first Platinum, and I'm able to buy Colony on turns 9, 11, 12, 13 and 14. His deck can't quite keep that up, and he resigns when down 50-27 with one Colony left after 14 turns.
Game 5 Fabian 31 - 30 roku (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-030215-1bc10a35.html)
We open nothing/Haggler and dabble in some Remake/Spice Merchant/Monument/Menagerie type cards, while buying some money. I'm up 1 point when he buys the penultimate Province, I get $7 the next turn. He gets $7 on his next turn, then I score $8+ and win the match!
Thanks to roku for the games! I'm 20-4 in the tournament so far, not too bad if I say so myself :) Of course, by mentioning it, I'm jinxing myself. Unless this is a reverse jinx? :p
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Ok, so Guy and I finally finished our match, thanks for your patience!
I won the last two games, for an overall 4-2 victory over Guy Srinivasan
Game 6: toaster 34 - 30 Guy Srinivasan
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-105227-433f3515.html
Game 7: toaster 30 - 14 Guy Srinivasan
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/31/game-20111231-110949-e384f66e.html
Commentary to come later this afternoon...thanks for a very interesting match!
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manzi defeats Exclams (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...) for 4-0
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/01/game-20120101-181350-579a1604.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/01/game-20120101-182153-92b662be.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/01/game-20120101-184101-7cb85fe5.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/01/game-20120101-184843-9fc5c293.html
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Here are the summaries for the matches between RisingJaguar (RJ) and quasi. All games were played using veto mode, point counter, and identical hands. I felt like writing longer summaries than usual, so... I'll rank games from a scale of 1-10 in terms of interest to help direct you to better games. Usually the lower games will be BM and the higher games will be close and/or creative engine building
Game 1: Quasi first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-120932-7f5f742d.html
Key Cards: Nobles, Festival, Envoy, Haggler... Interest : 7
He opened Envoy/silver and I considered coppersmith/silver to race for nobles as fast as possible and with drawing decks, coppersmith are a scary source of money but decided to play it safer. I get two early $6 and choose to buy gold then haggler. I thought he was aiming for a big money deck here with his purchase of gold to start as well, but he rushed for the nobles which i loss 5-3. This really hurt my early engine as it was just fluttering around for awhile. He got out to a two province lead and held it the rest of the way through even once my engine got going.
Quasi 47 - 33 RJ
Game 2: RJ first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-121421-f7a10052.html
Key Cards: Mountebank, Counting house, Cellar... Interest: 2
I wish I could make this game really interesting. On turns 3-4, I got 2 mountebanks which I thought would put me ahead. But my turns 5-7 never netted me a gold and i was behind. There were not any spammable $4/$5 cards which led to the not so smart purchase of a $5 cellar in turn 6. Quasi noted the soft counter of counting house faster than I did and was rewarded with some easy provinces during the last province buys. After turn 10 or so, it was clear he was going to win.
RJ 23 - 36 Quasi
Game 3: RJ first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-122150-ed907391.html
Key cards: Cartographers, Remodel, Spice Merchant, Smuggler, Caravan... Interest: 4
I was shell shocked from the first two losses because they were so decisive, similar to when I faced painted cow. I was ready to try something new with Hunting Party/cache/counting house, but with the elimination of Hunting party, that was no longer an option. We both opened Spice/Smugglers with quite similar strategies of a resemblance of BM. His Turn 8 nets him Province and cartographer and puts me on the defence. So much so, that I remodel my gold to province at the end of my deck on turn 12, not smart. I fall behind 4-2 in provinces but up a duchy and decide that I need to go straight for both provinces since I cartographer-ed a remodel in my next hand. This came in handy as I remodeled gold and bought an estate for the 1 point win. This did not feel like I deserved this win, but I'll take it!
RJ 31 - Quasi 30
Game 4: Quasi first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-123701-87ea8260.html
Key cards: Familiar, Ghost ship, Cities, Scheme... Chancellors (whaaaaaaa?) Interest: 8
With the curse attacks Familiar and YW, there were plenty of options but we both opted for familiars with his surprising potion/chancellor. It came into play right away with a Turn 3 Chancellor bought ghost ship. Quasi lost that advantage the next turn getting $2P which I'm sure he was disgusted. We spent the next few turns buying familiars and schemes to curse each other, never getting more than $5 my turn 12. I immediately thought city was the correct choice since a pile was gone but later regretted never picking up a ghost ship which hurt my cellar so very often. Quasi used his schemes often with his Ghost ship and later was able to sustain a lengthy engine. The score is not indicative of the blowout this game is. If I was not impressed with Quasi before this, I certainly was now with chancellor use! Things were looking bleak for me.
Quasi 6 - 3 RJ
Game 5: RJ first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-124659-036f8733.html
Key cards: Ambassador, Remake, peddler, Upgrade, Remodel, Scout. Interest: 4
Tactician would have made this more interesting but I took it out because of that reason. The game changed in my mind once it became a Colony game as upgrading peddlers was a beautiful looking option despite the lack of a +buy. We both started to cut our decks down, I used Ambs and he used Remake. His allowed him to get early lead and grab a lot of upgrades to start. where as I did not get $5 until T8. The card that set my deck apart was probably the use of scout in order to lower the price down of peddler and to line up upgrades. I'm not sure if Quasi missed it or just constantly had $6, but he never went for peddlers. This became a huge problem as I got 3 platinums before his first. On T17, I made a huge mistake with 3 platinums and two upgrades at the end of my deck, I used my upgrade and my three platinums were forced to miss the reshuffle. I still managed though to get 4-2 Colonies forcing Quasi to buy the Penultimate Colony (the right move I believe) and I remodeled myself to the win.
RJ 61 - 47 Quasi
Game 6: Quasi first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-125145-aeff94ae.html
Key Cards: Wharf, Highways, Farming Villages... Talismans... Interest: 9
Whenever I see Highway in the cards available, I take my time in the veto selection because of its power. I see +buys of barons and Horse traders and think if anything is possible, then realize wharf of course has +buys! So I veto horse trader in the hopes to shun him from engine building. With a 5/2 start, We go wharf/nothing. His T3/T4 buys are silver/gold (and BM) and I know its time to go for talismans and then get a Tasliman/highway T5. I baited him out!... or did I trap myself? T7/T8 he buys a province each while I'm stuck with a $2 talisman on T8. I knew this was a bad idea, Wharf BM is just too fast. T10 I get a bit lucky lining up my highways together. Then T12 my engine breaks loose buying 6 highways, 3 wharfs and stables. T13 My engine is now a big boy and gobbles up all the remaining provinces for the win. One of my favourite engines I have ever built!
Quasi 21 - 42 RJ
Game 7: Quasi first http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/02/game-20120102-130714-ef531b6b.html
Key Cards: Remodel, Warehouse, Library, Farming Village, Conspirators, Woodcutters... Duchess... Interest: 7 (but 10 since its game 7)
Our plans were very similar, shaped around warehouses and libraries. His was much more focused on Conspirators while mine was towards working more actions in (in order to lower the hand count even more). He makes the first mistake going conspirator/warehouse instead of remodel. However with my remodel and warehouse, I was left with a lot of $2 which I decided to buy Duchess with. I'm still not sure if it was the right choice or not, but the results were good. It allowed me to get early T4 library. At this point, I feel I erased the second turn disadvantage with my drawing luck. I make a couple mistakes in purchasing by avoiding woodcutter early to further build pieces and conspirators which was the whole point of this engine. Then I purchase a harem. I realize treasures slow down library set ups, but I felt it was a good tiebreaker as well as remodel to province was sneaky. I remodel that harem in T14 to put me up provinces 4-2. He replies by getting duchy/province, to force the winner of this game and this set to get the final province. The next turn, I manage to get my engine going but the lack of conspirators and previous trashed duchess make it hard for me to get money. After my second library, I have $7 with a farming village to go... 'Heart of the cards' on that click, I grab the woodcutter to get $9 and the final province (granted there was one other card in that deck and I believe it was a green card but that makes it less climatic)!
Quasi 29 - 36 RJ
Another close set, and another comeback win. Thank you Quasi for the games who dominated on the BM stage easily and my engine probably got the correct draws. Love to hear feedback, good or bad. I'm now in the Final Four (play March Madness Fanfare)!
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However with my remodel and warehouse, I was left with a lot of $2 which I decided to buy Duchess with. I'm still not sure if it was the right choice or not, but the results were good.
Congratulations for reaching the semi-final RJ. Open wishing well + remodel for that one though and take the warehouse later.
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However with my remodel and warehouse, I was left with a lot of $2 which I decided to buy Duchess with. I'm still not sure if it was the right choice or not, but the results were good.
Congratulations for reaching the semi-final RJ. Open wishing well + remodel for that one though and take the warehouse later.
I did consider this option because wishing well does work nicely with remodel imo, but decided against it since wishing well works against libraries (which was the basis of my engine).
Edit: It's probably better described that wishing well does not have much (or any) synergy with library as opposed to warehouse
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I did consider this option because wishing well does work nicely with remodel imo, but decided against it since wishing well works against libraries (which was the basis of my engine).
I don't see why Wishing Well works against Libraries. I agree it doesn't help Library like Warehouse does, but I'm not sure it can harm the Library because (1) Library can skip the Wishing Well, and (2) Wishing Well at worst can wish for a card that is non-existent in your deck if you don't want to increase handsize? Or you can wish for a card that you would want to draw with your Library.
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Quarterfinals: olneyce (32 seed) vs. shark_bait (25 seed)
olneyce wins 4-1. We played with random card selection, no identical starting hands, and no point counter.
Game 1: olneyce 33 – 24 shark_bait
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/06/game-20120106-135800-a46de80b.html
Key cards: Alchemist, Herbalist, Trade Route
Pretty straightforward Alchemist/Herbalist combo. The only real difference is that I bought a Trade Route to try and clear out my deck a bit, and a couple Havens to try and re-arrange funds. I'm not sure if that was the difference-maker, or if it was simply the luck of the draw.
Game 2: shark_bait 30 – 33 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/06/game-20120106-140856-1e0c7a2e.html
Key cards: Torturer, Grand Market, Peddler, Apothecary, Baron, Great Hall
I started 5/2, which didn't seem ideal, since the only 5s were Torturer and Embassy, and there were no villages. I decided to basically just go Big Money with a Torturer. He managed to get an engine humming relatively quickly, with Great Halls into Peddlers, and Apothecaries to organize his deck. It just wasn't quite quick enough, as I bought Provinces on each turn from 14-17. He got the last two for a 3-5 Province split, but didn't have quite enough points from the Great Halls, Fairgrounds, etc. to catch up.
Game 3: shark_bait 31 – 18 olneyce
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/06/game-20120106-141518-b485cf2b.html
Key cards: Jack, Hamlet
I went for a boilerplate double-Jack strategy, while he bought Hamlets. I don't remember what the conclusion was from the simulators on this question, but the evidence of this game suggests that Hamlet+Jack is much better than the simple bot.
Game 4: olneyce 61 – 15 shark_bait
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/06/game-20120106-143058-94d7c43f.html
Key cards: Alchemist, Fishing Village, Watchtower, Goons, Golem
This was a very interesting board with some massive synergies. The Fishing Villages reduced hand-size so the Watchtower could draw. The Watchtower countered the opponent's Goons. The Alchemist allowed for massive draws. And the Goons allowed for lots of points. We played almost identical strategies, but his draw was terrible (getting 2P on turn 3) while mine was really good. By turn 8 I got a draw of: Copper, Goons, 2 Fishing Villages, Watchtower. It was pretty much off to the races after that. Despite the lopsided final score, I'm not sure either of us made any clear mistakes, or made any especially insightful plays. I'd be curious if observers can see anything that he could have done to recover, or if it was just inevitable after the opening shuffle luck.
Game 5: shark_bait 16 – 21 olneyce
Key cards: Sea Hag, Governor, Goons
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/06/game-20120106-144812-2ae531c9.html
This was a crazy-good engine board, with Governor, Goons, Stables, Tournament, Throne Room, Highway, and Mining Village. But right in the middle of all that was Sea Hag. So we started out by cursing and only transitioned to other things later. He didn't think an engine could get going with all the curses+hags lying around, but I had faith in the Governor. My thought was that +3 cards would get through the mess, while the +1 card for him would be far less damaging than normal. He went mostly for Goons, with a few Governors. On turn 16, I played Governor as a super-Lab five times and the ONLY card left in my deck was the Goons I was hoping to use to close things off. That was pretty damaging, but it gave me faith that using Governor for the draw definitely could work. He was racing to clear out the estates before I could get more points to jump ahead, but on the last turn I drew most of my deck, played my one Tournament with my one Province to get a Followers, which gave me an Estate. Then I used my two buys to get a Province and the final Estate.
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Thanks to olneyce for playing. He played very well and is a very deserving player to represent the chapel division. I won't add much because olneyce summed up the games very well. However, here's a few of my thoughts and questions for discussion.
Game 2: I open with Baron/Silver hoping for the best case scenario of Turn 3 or 4 grand market. It doesn't happen and quite honestly, there aren't any 4 or 5 cost cards that I want for my deck. I bought one more silver and then solely great halls with 3. I'm wondering whether it would have been better to take a great hall to make peddlers cheaper or the silver for a greater chance of hitting the Baron/Estate/Silver turn.
Game 4: Like olneyce said, was this was over from the first 8 turns or was there any chance for me to salvage the game?
It was a pleasure to be in this tournament! Thanks to theory and rrenaud for organizing and best of luck to the rest of the players!
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Congrats to olneyce! Here's my take on some of the games:
The Jack game suggests Hamlet is a good complement and I'm sure it's better than the simple Jack bot, but the simulator doesn't play Hamlet well in combo with Jack (not yet anyway, I might add a fix).
Game 4 was just very unlucky for shark_bait and olneyce got all nice draws.
The Baron/Silver game is interesting and I put it in the simulator (don't try it agains Torturer though, because Estates will be discarded with a Baron in hand):
<player name="Baron/Apothecary into Grand Market"
author="Geronimoo"
description="Open Baron/Silver, get Apothecaries for a nice draw engine and gain Grand Markets and Peddlers for money. XXXXThis bot buys no treasure apart from the starting Silver!">
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="Competitive"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="Engine"/>
<buy name="Province">
<condition>
<left type="getTotalMoney"/>
<operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Great_Hall">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Estate">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Grand_Market"/>
<buy name="Apothecary"/>
<buy name="Gold"/>
<buy name="Peddler"/>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Baron">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Potion">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
<operator type="equalTo" />
<right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Baron">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Silver">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
<operator type="equalTo" />
<right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Great_Hall"/>
</player>
<player name="Baron into Grand Market"
author="Geronimoo"
description="Open Baron/Silver, gain Grand Markets and Peddlers when possible. ">
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<type name="Competitive"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="Engine"/>
<buy name="Province">
<condition>
<left type="getTotalMoney"/>
<operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Great_Hall">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Estate">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Grand_Market"/>
<buy name="Gold"/>
<buy name="Apothecary"/>
<buy name="Peddler"/>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Baron">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Potion">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Baron">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Silver">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
<operator type="equalTo" />
<right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Great_Hall"/>
</player>
I made a pure engine bot that doesn't buy Gold and only the single Silver to kick start the deck.
The other bot is more of Big Money and doesn't buy Apothecaries.
The engine bot loses slightly to the BM bot, but I think if you can get a turn 3 Grand Market, you'll be better off building an engine. If not, just go BM (but still buy GM over Gold)
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WanderingWinder defeats toaster, 4-0, in the last round of 16 match.
I have videos up of the match, though I don't think they're as good as what I've posted before - I really wasn't focused on the videos at all. (They are a higher resolution than those of my last match though, and they aren't as terrible now that I watch them as I thought they were after I made them. They're also much shorter than the allfail match videos).
Games were played with identical starting hands and the point counter. No Veto Mode.
Here's a breakdown of each game:
Game 1: WW 36 - toaster 36 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120106-181643-cb08b13e.html
First thing of note in this match is that the 2nd player won EVERY game. This one I got on tiebreak.
He opens potion/silver, obviously heading for familiars. I go tournament/lighthouse, anticipating blocking most of the curses with lighthouses and being pretty well ahead on time. He misses his potion until turn 5, where he gets $4P, but buys a tournament. This really puzzles me, because he's just wasted a lot of tempo with the potion if he DOESN'T go for familiar. But as it turns out, despite this, he gets to province first (turn 8) and connects it with tournament first (turn 11). This upsets me a little; he takes Trusty Steed as his prize, which I think is a mistake (check out the thread in the help forum from earlier this week). Anyway, my deck being a little better pays off, even though he starts hitting me with a couple of familiar blast, and duchies and the presence of tunnel as 2 VP when I can't reach 5 help me hold him off. He ends the game with the score tied rather than playing on - well, I think I had the better of things regardless, but he certainly wasn't totally hopeless. Well, I mean, he was, because I could buy the last province next turn anyway, but he couldn't have known that.
Game 2: WW 45 - Toaster 32 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120106-182047-c39e9291.html
A pretty lackluster game. He goes for black market (I looked but didn't see anything too too special, and I don't like BM in general; waste of a terminal slot), I go for feast into haggler. He picks up a chapel out of the black market on turn 5, which I think is a huge mistake, mostly because chapel itself will be pretty ineffectual at that point, but also he could have had a gold otherwise. I go for delayed bishops and some more hagglers along with as much money as I can muster. I get a pretty nice lead and just coast in.
Game 3: WW 34 - Toaster 29 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120106-182545-fe797fb3.html
My plan here is to go for governors to grab a bunch of golds and then mega-turn, with a bridge as my terminal to also support more mega-turn possibilities. He opens with salvager, which is something I'm generally pretty loathe to do. He springs that into Ghost Ship BM, salvaging a province as early as turn 12! Fairgrounds gives me a good way of keeping up, even with his somewhat of a lead early. I never get my mega-turn to really go off like I want it, but turn 14 I am able to province-Fairground, and my much stronger deck at this point carries the lead home. It's important that I was making sure of the score and covering all the possibilities he had on his options at the end.
Game 4: WW 19 - toaster 8 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120106-183218-c8fd0906.html
A sea hag game. He opens sea hag/smugglers which I think is pretty terrible, but maybe isn't as bad as I first thought. Anyway, the presence of apprentice makes me want to load up on sea hags. I get a HUGE lead in the curse war, winning it 7-3, which pretty much kills the game right there. I could have sought to 3-pile if I'd been better preparing earlier on for it, but I stick with my plan with apprentices. toaster takes a bunch of feasts into apprentices to try to catch up in cleaning his deck, but unsurprisingly I'm faster, even with getting a couple sea hags stuck at the end of the deck without apprentices a few times. Anyway, I'm able to three-pile on curses, apprentices, and pawns with what had seemed a pretty comfortable lead for a while.
Overall, I feel sorta bad for toaster. He'd gotten hung up with something else before the match, and I can't help wondering if that affected his play. I know he's a better player in general than what got through in the match. But then again, two of the games were quite close.
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For Game 3, I am pretty surprised that your plan somehow does not involve a Ghost Ship... should be really effective with Governors I think. Very interesting way you played the Governor nevertheless.
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This is the only division where the top two seeds made it into the division finals ...
(The others being 4v2, 12v2, and 8v7.)
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I definitely wasn't as focused as I could've been during the series...I was hoping to pick up a couple of games, but I wasn't expecting any different outcome to the overall match. I think that expectation may have hurt my play further. WW summarized the strategy pretty well. One comment on the first game...I realized around turn 3/4 that going Familiar was a terrible idea on that board, but I'd already bought the Potion by then. Not wanting to throw good money after bad, I bought the tournament at that point. Clearly the better play was not to buy the potion, but given that I'd already done that, it seemed like shifting gears was still the best option for me.
P.S. Also, my apologies to WW for not being particularly talkative during the match. I wasn't in the most social of moods and I hope I didn't come across as rude, that wasn't my intention.
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WanderingWinder beats Fabian 4-1
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-185135-fd42d716.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-185804-6c7f217e.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-190412-7328fea6.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-190943-0a55a884.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-191702-6bc98b43.html
Too tilted to comment. Congrats WW
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It was definitely much closer than the 4-1 suggests. I will try to make more thorough analyses tomorrow and then do a real, real top write-up. Maybe an after-the-fact video (the ones I made during are up already). But I intend to do analysis of these more than I've ever done, including those old write up styles like got used on the Annotated Games on the blog. Though I probably won't actually cover every single turn of every game in detail.
Edit: I'd do it now, but I'm too much coming off adrenaline power, the nerves; think I might make myself sick.
I'm gonna go lay down...
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They're up where? DominionStrategy youtube channel? Uploading still then, I assume. Or some place else?
Starting to calm down a little, but still pretty wound up. I got crushed in game #5 to something I didn't see coming because I'm an idiot, but the other games were.. very close, let's just say. I think it's fair to say it could just as easily have been a 4-0 victory to me (well, WW would go first in those games of course so it wouldn't happen, but you get my point). I felt like I was a favorite in every other game, but then again I pretty much always feel that way so it probably doesn't mean much.
Looking forward to videos and write-ups etc. Congrats again, needless to say you played very well. WW now extends his lead in head to head battles from 21-18 to 25-19, which also upsets me :)
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They're here: http://www.livestream.com/wanderingwinder
When and if they'll get up on the dominionstrategy youtube will be up to theory. But it's not quite 4 AM where he is yet, so I wouldn't expect anything.
Interestingly, I think I actually subtly outplayed you in most games (though hey, luck definitely didn't shine against me, not gonna deny that) , so we'll have to compare commentaries. I certainly feel it would have been dreadfully unlucky for me to go down 4-0 here. Of the first four games, I'd expect to win, oh, 2.5 or so if we played them with relatively the same strategies as we used, over and over again.
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Just looking at the games quickly, the first game for Fabian, it really hurt him that he got <$5 three times in turn 3-7 (to WW's 1). I think he made the best of it, as silver or 3rd monument look like bad ideas, but that early shuffle luck really got to his economy. No $8 and $7 once (i think) shows it. I can understand why Fabian is a teensy bit upset at this game... same strategy (from what I see) and first turn and loss.
Wish I could comment on the other matches, but Govenor and Bureaucrat analysis are out of my league. I will say that are very subtle difference in plans that made the differences (which is cool to see). Look forward to your full commentary and thoughts.
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Certainly interesting to watch someone else comment on your game. Well, I couldn't bare watching the last game, but the others were cool.
In the first game, I think we both play well overall, and obviously our strategies are pretty much identical (though I like 2 Monument). It seems to me like I'm winning if I get a Province here, but most of that would be because of first player advantage imo. Oh well, I don't hit $8 while you do.
In the second game, it's entirely possible your strategy is much stronger than mine. However, when we reach the point where you need both Provinces to win and you say I have no economy left, I hit $7 three times afterwards, which is what prompts my "sigh" afterwards. Maybe this is unlucky, maybe it's justice ;)
In the third game, when I go for my megaturn and need both Provinces, I hit Governor+Gold+$7, and instead have to Remodel Silver into Duchy + buy Fairgrounds, but after that it's obviously very tough to win. Again, whether or not this is unlucky or justice, it's pretty close either way.
I didn't mean for this to turn into a huge whine-fest, and I certainly didn't mean I deserved to win every game. All I meant was that it was very close that it actually happened, in every game. I certainly felt I was a huge favorite to win game 2 after I bought the last Duchy, and I felt pretty unlucky that none of those $7s was an $8. If my strategy was a lot worse than yours to begin with though, it's entirely possible I got lucky to be in that position in the first place. On an unrelated note, I smiled a bit during your commentary of that game, when you go "he's probably buying Great Hall here" when we reached the point where GH's were irrelevant :)
You're definitely a deserving winner, good luck in the semis and the final.
RisingJaguar, I got to $7 twice in game 1, turns 12 and 18.
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My 2 cents after watching the commentary:
Game #1: Fabian is being unlucky here. The second monument is definitely the way to go. Hitting the third $4, I think it's a close call between a silver and a garden, while the garden is probably the better choice. If WW didn't get 2 Provinces the result will be the opposite.
Game #2: I think WW overated the difference between a bureaucrat and a SM opening (because BM is actually quite swingy), although I agree with him that his strategy will be better in average. The first Province I would have taken a Gold, but seems to make no difference in this game (ie, a shuffle later he drew a hand with a province in hand and bought a gold.) I think not breaking the PPR there is actually a mistake. As one can see, taking a duchy there (if I recall correctly) denied himself the last duchy when he had the money for it, and made him in quite a bad position having to get the last two Provinces anyway. At that point given the VP counts, I think it should be obvious that breaking the PPR sooner is better than later. A treasure poor deck still has some chance to just produce a province...
Game #3: WW played very well on this one. I wouldn't have thought twice to take the Governor route, especially not a merchant ship strategy. He did get good draws too though.
Game #4: I prefer WW's second remodel to be a caravan; you can remodel it to a GM later if you want anyway. On the other hand, I think drawing the two Remodel separately would have been quite useless at that point. Maybe steal a province from FG->gold->Province? dunno if that will work. Fabian won by first player advantage though.
Game #5: First time I see this strategy in work! Reading it just isn't enough; you have to play it yourself to see it. I am really amazed from these videos how familiar with the game WW is; it will take much longer for me to figure out on each board which strategy should I play. And I still make lots of stupid mistakes, usually realizing immediately around turn 3... Anyway, I think the interesting to discuss here is which version you should go for in this strategy. The colony version is exactly one turn slower with 1 more points to start with (should trash silver to get to a plat then trash a gold vs. trash a gold to get a province; I guess WW was just feeling too comfortable there :P) Then the Colony strategy will yield 1 more point per turn. Against each other the colony strategy seems slightly better.
Edit: I think I was wrong, indeed seeing it is not the same as playing it. :P
So the Colony version is actually 2 turns slower; starting from BGSSC, the province strategy can get to the Province right away, but the Colony strategy has to trash the silver to get another gold, then copper to get a Platinum. In the process it accumulates 2 more points. A two turn deficit means 10 more points for the Province player though; this renders the Province strategy strictly superior.
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They're here: http://www.livestream.com/wanderingwinder
When and if they'll get up on the dominionstrategy youtube will be up to theory. But it's not quite 4 AM where he is yet, so I wouldn't expect anything.
Email or DropBox them to me and I'll upload them when I get back from work.
Alternatively, I've also PMed you a direct email link that you should be able to use to upload videos to the DS account. Send an email to that address and any attached videos will be uploaded to the DominionStrategy channel.
It looks like a great series and a remarkably high level of play on both sides. Hopefully the semifinals demonstrate the same.
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Very nice matches there WW. And good videos! But I hate how you're teaching everyone the power of Big Money :)
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Also, statistically, Fabian and manzi were "supposed" to have won in order to maintain the relative representation ratios of America/Europe/Asia, which up until now had behaved precisely as expected.
As it is, Turambar and manzi are going to fight it out for whether Europe or Asia gets a spot in the American Dominion Cup final four.
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RisingJaguar, I got to $7 twice in game 1, turns 12 and 18.
Oops, but my point still seems valid, the early $4s did you in. Not much you could've done I think sadly.
I also forgot to mention, these were some really great games played on both sides!
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A couple quick comments before I do full analyses:
Game 1: Yes, luck absolutely determined this game. I think I played really well, but... Fabian didn't get the chance; I would have probably played very nearly identically to him. On the other hand, I don't think the 2-0 provinces made as much difference as you guys are implying, but... that will be in the later commentary.
Game 2: OK, here's the big one. Bureaucrat should really stomp spice merchant. As for getting $7 3 times after turn 18 - I don't think that's a sign you got unlucky, I think it's a sign you got lucky! Let's look at your deck at that point:
Fabian: 32 points : 3 Province, 1 Gold, 3 Duchy, 2 Caravan, 1 Spice Merchant, 1 Great Hall, 4 Silver, 4 Estate, 3 Copper
So to get $8, you need either all 4 silvers, the gold and 3 silvers, the gold, 2 silvers and a copper, a gold a silver, and all 3 coppers, or 3/4 silvers and 2/3 coppers. All in all, a deck of that size... it's unlikely. On top of which, the first 2 $7s you used to buy the last 2 duchies. If either of those weren't duchies, I get the last duchy and only need 1 of the provinces anyway...
Game 4: Yes, second remodel is better as something else. I got rather unlucky to get remodel-copper-copper-estate-estate, which might have just doomed me there, but Fabian also outplayed me.
Game 5: Well, game 1 I think I had a clearly better strategy, but still wouldn't expect to win like all the time - he's got chances. Here though, was the real clear outplay, which I don't feel like I can take credit for so much 'cause I just copied the strategy I'd read on these forums! Anyway, with the strategies, I should win roughly 100% of the time, but even if he also goes for 'the golden deck', I'm going to win like, 70 % of the time or something with 1st-turn. And I was pretty sure that province is the way to go there over colony in terms of efficiency, like in a mirror match, BUT, if he's to have any chance of beating me there, it's better to go for the colonies for me, while not in the mirror. I think.
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but even if he also goes for 'the golden deck', I'm going to win like, 70 % of the time or something with 1st-turn.
The Golden Deck has 60:40 first-player advantage in the simulator. (The Province-version, but as everything is determined by the first turns Colonies should be the same)
@Province/Colony: Assume it's a real mirror, also concerning the draws, it takes two more turns to go for Colonies. So when you get 8 Provinces for 41 Points, second player gets 5 Colonies for 34 points. And probably trashes an additional Copper and Silver for 3 points. Seems like Provinces is the right move in a mirror.
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Thanks to WW and Fabian for some excellent games, possibly the best round of the tournament so far. I've had a little play with the simulator and an early hoard could be worth it in game #1 (this set seems to simulate well but the causes might be buried deep in the vp purchasing). In game #2 the bureaucrat simulates very strongly against the spice trader and I suspect this mirrors an old weakness of moneylenders against bureaucrats. The attack hits estates more often and the trashed copper isn't as likely to be replaced with good treasures (gold) since hands are poorer. In fact the simulator likes taking an explorer to replenish treasure in the spice merchant/caravan deck. In game #5 I'm guessing that you pick bishop/colony or bishop/province based on the state of play.
My favourite of the set though was game#3 where WW decided to take advantage of the governor gifts and pushed his deck full throttle with provinces on turns 5 and 7. Matching governors as second player always seems a bad idea since the decks accelerate so fast and frequently make first turn advantage decisive in a mirrored game. Perhaps if someone writes an article on the governor this game can be a good example, taken from a high quality competitive match with a quiet looking kingdom.
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Game 1: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-185135-fd42d716.html
Okay, very clearly it's an IGG rush. Nothing to get around them with, no colonies, etc. Monument is one of the best supplementary cards for the rush. Gardens is probably THE best. Now I definitely got lucky here, BUT let's go through this reshuffle by reshuffle. Same obvious opening. First reshuffle, I get IGG and silver. Fabian gets IGG and monument. We each get a VP chip from monument. Advantage in luck, Fabian. Next reshuffle, I get 3 IGGs, he gets 1 and 2 gardens. I play my monument, he plays both of his. Also note that the curse from my last IGG doesn't hit him until the following reshuffle because of first turn. Advantage, me, but not by all that much. Getting those gardens is really important, because that will usually be what the game is won on eventually in these mirrors. Next reshuffle: he gets 2 IGGs, a gardens, and a silver, and plays both monuments; I get 2 silvers, 2 provinces, and play my monument. Advantage, me, clearly. BUT, if my money was a little more spread out, it wouldn't have been as bad for me as you might think. I would have picked up another IGG, further snowballing him under curses, and either another IGG or gardens, really helping me and denying him as things unfolded. Ok, next reshuffle: He gets IGG, Gardens, Silver, and estate, plays 2 monuments. I get 3 gardens an estate, and a copper, play one monument. I actually get behind in the IGGs because I have to catch up on gardens, which means he's getting the long-term advantage, the price of my earlier provinces. I'm really not sure about him grabbing estate over the last gardens on turn 15. Yes, I can then win the game if I get to $5, but that's probably going to be true anyway. Having a 5-3 gardens split at the end would give him some niceness. OTOH, it does accelerate the end of the game, which is something he doesn't want to do. Last reshuffle he gets estate, duchy, and a monument play, I get the last IGG and gardens.
So ok, yes I got lucky, and yes I would have played very similarly to him (would have preferred gardens to IGGs a little earlier - I'm looking at turn 12), yes if he got a late province he would have won (though by then neither of our decks was in much position to get a province). But if one of my earlier provinces were evened out, I don't think it would have hurt that much, and he got a pretty huge advantage getting that monument over silver on the first reshuffle. In contrast, my advantage were getting at least one province, and getting lucky on getting IGGs second reshuffle. Keep in mind that first player advantage should be big here, with curses hitting reshuffles and in racing piles.
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Game 2: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-185804-6c7f217e.html
You know, I started my commentary here saying why spice merchant is dreadful in big money, and this is certainly not an engine board, then he goes for it. Spice merchant doesn't help your buying power. Sims actually show that buying a spice merchant and going money is WORSE than just going money. Now obviously you're going to usually have some action to play that reverses that, but it's very very rarely great. Furthermore, the trashing is really bad against bureaucrat, because a relatively much higher percentage of your cards are green. So it's just a really really dreadful move. It also doesn't work well with caravan, because the smaller your deck is, the more your caravans are going to miss those reshuffles. So it's just a terrible terrible terrible card here. Now, caravan itself would have actually been great for my deck, but I didn't hit $4 after turn 2 until very late, where I either needed the VP of great hall, or it was preferable to have mining village (more on that later). Now I got a little lucky to hit turn 4 gold, unlucky to hit 8 on turn 6 (would be better to spread out), more unlucky to miss out on bureaucrat 2nd reshuffle. A little lucky in hitting a green card every time with bureaucrat, though again his strategy played into that a bit. Now we get into the interesting bit. Turn 17 I follow PPR. Now, normally by this point, you do break PPR, because neither of us is hitting $8 all that consistently already. BUT, I knew that the longer the game went (and duchy dancing makes it go a lot longer), the more pronounced my advantage in deck quality would be, and the less likely a flukey province from him was going to kill me. I figured we'd probably split the last two duchies, and then I only needed one of the last two provinces to win, which was pretty likely. Unfortunately for me, he was able to get both duchies. Now, this did make his deck even more bogged down, which let me get more of a chance at the provinces. And as I pointed out in an earlier post, his deck has so little money in it at that point, he's not going to have high probabilities of stringing it all together for a province. Now, after the last duchy was out, Fabian makes a really good point, which I realized right after I said he'd probably go for Great Halls on the video, that the great halls and estates are virtually irrelevant. Assuming the game isn't going to 3-pile, which would take 3 more great halls and 7 estates, I would need four 1-point VP cards to make a change, as well as getting one of the provinces, and he would need 8. If I go for it, he can either chase me down with them and go for that three pile potentially, or just build his deck and grab one of the provinces, then scrounge enough of the remaining provinces to secure a win. If he goes for it, well, he's not really going to have a good chance to get 8 before I get both provinces, and eventually I can join in and grab one or two late to put it totally out of reach for him. So we both knew that the little green cards were totally irrelevant, which isn't THAT hard to see, but a subtle little thing, and something where we can crush the simulators, at least as they're currently being programmed, and good play from both of us to build back up our decks to strike at provinces, me needing both, him needing one.
Turn 20 is also key. We both get 4, with which he gets caravan, I get mining village. Clear, clear mistake from him. MV gives you a potential free $2 the turn you play it, plus you can wait until the turn you need it to use it. Caravan doesn't give its bonus until one turn later (potentially big here) and more importantly, the extra card is massively less likely to get him to province than the $2 is. And we can see that the last turn, I used the mining village to get me across the line.
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Game 3: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-190412-7328fea6.html
Okay, I knew governor was the 'obvious' strategy here, but... well it does have its drawbacks. First off, governor mirrors massively advantage first turn, because 1st player both gets first chance to go mega-turn as well as has more support in going mega in some ways. But moreover, governor strategies without some help - either from opponent's governors (council room, etc.) or from trashing, need several fast governors to get that mega-turn arranged. They need enough governors to get a big enough hand with enough left over to gold->province a couple times, enough gold to do that, and preferably enough treasure to still buy a province. Basically, that's at least 4, probably 5 governors, and with no help, it takes like 14ish turns or something, I think, and meanwhile you're helping your opponent. (note that the steward helps here, so this doesn't ALL apply, but steward isn't the BEST helper, especially with the 5/2s, and he only uses it to trash once! which has got to be a mistake for the deck he wants, I think, though there's so much he wants to do, it's not easy to make the decisions, because you can't do it all). Furthermore, the presence of bank and fairgrounds make defensive trashing for points a pretty strong possibility. Finally, merchant ship is pretty underrated, a great opener, and actually a pretty darn good terminal, as a non-card-drawing duration, to get multiples of quickly.
Okay, I province on turn 5 and 7. Normally, this is way way way too fast (and I would have preferred like one of them to be a bank and then slip that money to an adjacent turn, but I *think* with what I had, this was right; maybe bank on the first woulda been better though...), even with the nice Merchant ship start. But I knew he was going to be pumping me with silver. Actually, this might have been a situation for him to consider using the +cards option more, come to think of it. Anyway, I'm pretty fast with the double merchant ship, all his silvers, and grabbing enough stuff with trashing options from him to be able to get 4 point fairgrounds. And then he can't quite double province himself to a win on turn 13, though that's awfully early to expect to be able to, and he knows he can't break PPR there with me having such strong chances at getting a province with the benefits he's been pumping me. And I'm of course able to get the penultimate province anyway, and thankfully hold on, though with his 1st turn, it was still decently close.
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Game 4: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-190943-0a55a884.html
Remodel/Fool's Gold is strong. It also gives pretty good 1st turn advantage. Anyway, its wicked strength leads to very fast games, and you gotta play the mirror - if you don't contest those fool's gold, you're dead meat, plus there isn't anything else all that great here. Big thing is turn 4, where with copper-copper-estate-estate-Remodel, I have to remodel estate into fool's gold and buy a fool's gold to stop from falling so far behind. Then bad luck for me again turn 5, I hit copper-copper-FG-FG-Estate and have buy out the last FG to stop from falling behind. Basically I think I'm already lost there, though Fabian outplays me anyway. I was confused by Remodel Estate->Bishop and thought it was bad at the time BUT, now that I think about it, it must be right. Yeah, the trashing potentially helps me a lot, but practically, I need the money to buy provinces right now, so I can't afford to trash coppers. Plus tiebreak VP can be big. I counter by remodeling estate into remodel, a pretty big mistake, I think, because the game is fast, and my plan of remodeling remodel into Grand Market, which I am actually able to get quite fortunately, is going to be available no matter what $4 I remodel into. So caravan or bishop were better. Probably in my situation, caravan. I'm not sure if I should have bought anything with my $3 on turn 6 though. I figured silver was not great, though it might be ok, and maybe even estate is not too early. Anyway, there are a couple of interesting decisions with trashing FG for gold, which I *think* were all made correctly, but I'm much less sure on my end than on his. He gets a little unlucky having us both get remodel with our other 4, negating my mistake of getting that second remodel. On turn 12, I could remodel GM into the last province, buy last estate, and... lose by a point, unfortunately for me. But his deck was significantly better by then, I couldn't get a lead or even if-I-get-the-last-province-I'll-be-in-the-lead, and he converted the remodeler's 1st turn advantage, remodeling province into the last province (though there were many $6 cards in his deck by then that he could also have drawn with it, not to mention just getting enough money). So a quite deserved win for him, even if propelled by a bit of luck and 1st turn. He did outplay me, too.
The game is so fast, tactician is never a viable option.
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Game 5: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-191702-6bc98b43.html
Not gonna say a lot. He's just in a bad way here, and then either underestimates or more likely doesn't recognize the golden deck.
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Really good writeup of the games, also the commentary was fun to watch. The first 2 games felt verly unlucky for Fabian after watching the videos, even when your analysis of G2 with his Money is right. G5 was really disappointing for me, that Fabian didnt go for Bishop. But hey, it was a live game, and I remember my G3 vs RisingJaguar as well, where I did a huge mistake in opening. Being on tilt after being down 1:3 wont help either there...
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Following the discussions:
I think game #1 shows one interesting aspect of an IGG game: how good are Provinces actually in such a rush game? Suppose two players are racing for the gardens, then the garden split will cause a difference of 6-8 points. That is, if a single Province cost you the split, it is probably not worth it.
Maybe the more important question is when should the player start to take VPs? In this game, what we can see is that the two players only suspend at the IGG when there is one left. I don't think this is obviously the right answer. In other words, will it fare Fabian better, if he just gives up one or two more IGGs and creates a definite Garden split?
One additional thing I'd like to comment: one more curse in the deck does not hurt all that much; the variation of the shuffle creates much more difference.
In game #2, I was wrong about the PPR situation. I think the easiest way to see whether you should break PPR when your opponent has a worse deck is whether your opponent can kill you with a single Province buy out from the last two. I thought the VP split in a way that WW had to get the two Provinces at that point (I thought fabian got one more duchy there), but it is not the case.
When should you trash Fool's Gold for Gold? From the short term the answer is quite clear: whenever you cannot afford enough this turn or when you have excess and sort of "save" for the last turn. Probably this is all we need to know for the game, as it is bound to be at the later stage of the game anyway. Still, I find it somewhat amusing that even in the long run, trashing your FG's and get golds does not deter your deck all that much, if at all.
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Maybe the more important question is when should the player start to take VPs? In this game, what we can see is that the two players only suspend at the IGG when there is one left. I don't think this is obviously the right answer.
My simulations suggested leaving three IGG in the supply if you haven't got a good points lead and finish off with green cards. Three isn't an entirely obvious number either. I suspect it could be quite difficult to tease out exactly the right conditions as it might involve the size of any score difference, size of the decks, whether an opponent will reshuffle or not, how gardens are split, and other odd factors.
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I suspect that from this point on every match is going to be discussed in detail by those of us who are still following the tournament. Would it make sense for the results to be posted as their own topic on this board so the discussions about matches don't get confusing and are easy to sort when we're looking at forum updates?
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Good idea. I'm going to wait for manzi v. Turambar (the last Division Finals) to wrap up, and then start making some new topics for the Final Four :)
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Manzi beats Turambar 4-1
Turambar 30 Manzi 60:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/11/game-20120111-050040-f37eddda.html
Turambar 31 Manzi 32:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/11/game-20120111-050703-77ca6a99.html
Turambar 39 manzi 44:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/11/game-20120111-051541-aaa3c0f9.html
Turambar 48 Manzi 46:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/11/game-20120111-052852-eeefed15.html
Turambar 20 Manzi 21:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/11/game-20120111-053303-c4184fd3.html
Thx for the games! I felt I lost to a better player. Will maybe comment on games later, when I have time.
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manzi defeats Turambar for 4-1
I missed logs so they will be posted soon by Turambar
Turambar, thanks for the game.
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I'll wait for the analysis of better players but I'll just say that games #2 and #4 looked like they were very exciting with both players pursuing different strategies.