Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: XerxesPraelor on October 15, 2014, 08:36:27 pm
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Discovery – Action/Duration - $4
Gain an action card, putting it on top of your deck. Place a copy of it on the Discovery mat.
Next turn: Discard the copy from the Discovery mat.
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While this is in play, at the beginning of his turn, each other player may play a card from his hand as if it were a card from the Discovery mat until it leaves play.
Printing Press – Action - $5
+6 Cards
Discard 5 cards.
Reveal the bottom card of your deck. If it's an action card, gain a copy of it. You may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
Thinker – Action - $6
+6 Cards
+1 Action
Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck. The player to your left looks at your hand and places a card from it onto your taboo mat.
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In games using this, when you buy a card costing less than $3, you may discard a card from your taboo mat. Return all cards on the taboo mats to their owner's deck at the end of the game.
These are the three most volatile cards in my fan expansion Dominion:Progress. I find them particularly hard to cost, because the effects are so large-scale. Any opinions?
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King's Court - King's Court - Printing Press is going to kick off some ridiculous turns. This may or may not be the intended effect.
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Discovery:
I think there are some potential logistical issues with the card, but I understand the intent. Gain two copies of a card, one top-decked, but virtually gives every other play a copy of the card in hand.
The wording is a bit confusing. "each other player may play a card..." so it doesn't cost them their action? That's very powerful for them. But then, Discovery has no cost restriction, which is kind of insane. Gain two Goons on t3? Gain two KCs later? That's powerful enough that I'm not sure the huge benefit to others matches.
There's also a lot of potential confusion to be had when people are playing Estates as action cards. :P
I think a cost restriction would help a lot. As is, it sounds broken... but it's unique enough that it's hard to say.
Printing Press:
So, major sifting, copy and then bottom-deck. If you can chain two of these together, you can select which card to "print". Interesting concept. I don't think it is too powerful. Despite the heavy sifting, this card can't increase your hand size. It actually decreases hand size if you choose to bottom-deck. The "printing" power is tempered by looking at the bottom card, which is much more likely to miss the shuffle anyway. Also, the first play of it can whiff fairly often except in already well-crafted decks.
I don't think it's broken, and it's worth testing as is. If it's too powerful, you could have it discard 6 cards, or just lower the draw (and maybe the discard as well) so it has less reach. Or maybe make the bottom-deck mandatory. If it turns out to be weak, I think it might be worth leaving it as is anyway.
(PPE: yeah it could be pretty ridiculous with KC, but I don't see it as being too much crazier than other possible KC-KC combos).
Thinker
So this is huge non-terminal draw that lets your opponent semi-Island one of your cards. Since there is a way to get cards back though, I'm not sure it's enough. With some +Buy and a decent $2 card (or Watchtower), the penalty is easy to overcome. Heck, with such huge draw, it could be OK to just buy Copper to get your cards back. I think it might be interesting if the removed cards were permanently gone (until the end of the game).
I may be underestimating the severity of the penalty, since it does prevent you from playing the taboo card at least until your next turn (excepting Black Market). I think it really does have some game-breaking potential though.
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Discovery should have "return to the supply" instead of "discard". Does that change it enough?
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Discovery should have "return to the supply" instead of "discard". Does that change it enough?
It's still funky enough that I am very unsure. Sounds more reasonable, and might actually be too weak. Tough call! Have you tested it at all? If so, what have you found?
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Draw 6, discard 5 induces a fair amount of AP.
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Right now Printing Press just looks like better embassy to me.
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Right now Printing Press just looks like better embassy to me.
It doesn't have the on-gain attack though.
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I think you have some compelling ideas, which may or may not actually work out, but you are also seem to be pushing for them to be powerful and workable without any support, which in turn makes them wordy. Cards that work with support are usually better, because combining the cards in the kingdom is what Dominion is all about.
Printing Press, for instance. You don't need the insane sift, you can just make the card a swingy cheap gainer. Especially if its terminal, to make it harder to chain two.
I think this would be worth playtesting.
Printing Press – Action - $3
+2 Cards
Reveal the bottom card of your deck. If it is an action card, gain a copy of it. You may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
Thinker is definitely too powerful in any kingdom with +Buy. The penalty is huge, but who cares? The card is fast and you can overbuy terminals just in case. Just a couple of this draw your deck instantly. Add in a Woodcutter, and your deck is buying a Province (possibly +Copper) a turn starting T7. A lot faster than Rebuild, and just as boring. I don't think any engine is going to be able to compete with that, and it will even outrun the best slogs.
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Thinker
So this is huge non-terminal draw that lets your opponent semi-Island one of your cards. Since there is a way to get cards back though, I'm not sure it's enough. With some +Buy and a decent $2 card (or Watchtower), the penalty is easy to overcome. Heck, with such huge draw, it could be OK to just buy Copper to get your cards back. I think it might be interesting if the removed cards were permanently gone (until the end of the game).
This nerf would make Thinker similar to (but probably far weaker than) Apprentice. Allowing your opponent to trash one of your cards (with a choice between ~nine cards and no cost restriction) would be a self-attack worse than almost all actual attacks on its own. You'd rarely want to play it with Provinces or other $7+ cards in your deck.
But I agree that the card seems too strong as is - what about only allowing to discard a Taboo card when you don't buy any cards >$3 in a turn?
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You realize you need two woodcutters (which means you need two villages) because if you just have one it'll get exiled. The one way I can imagine this being really good is in an engine with highways and +buy, but you have to add this late to your engine or it'll cripple you.
Maybe I just can't come up with the best way of playing this - what would your strategy on a board with
Hamlet, Woodcutter, Highway, Worker's Village, Thinker, Embassey, Militia, Grand Market, Forge for example?
PPE: That sounds like a good fix.
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Printing Press has a neat effect in Looter games.
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what about only allowing to discard a Taboo card when you don't buy any cards >$3 in a turn?
Or simply when you don't buy anything at all.
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Thinker
So this is huge non-terminal draw that lets your opponent semi-Island one of your cards. Since there is a way to get cards back though, I'm not sure it's enough. With some +Buy and a decent $2 card (or Watchtower), the penalty is easy to overcome. Heck, with such huge draw, it could be OK to just buy Copper to get your cards back. I think it might be interesting if the removed cards were permanently gone (until the end of the game).
This nerf would make Thinker similar to (but probably far weaker than) Apprentice. Allowing your opponent to trash one of your cards (with a choice between ~nine cards and no cost restriction) would be a self-attack worse than almost all actual attacks on its own. You'd rarely want to play it with Provinces or other $7+ cards in your deck.
But I agree that the card seems too strong as is - what about only allowing to discard a Taboo card when you don't buy any cards >$3 in a turn?
I said until the end of the game, like with Island. Choosing Province would help you, not hurt you.
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Printing Press – Action - $5
+4 Cards
Reveal the bottom card of your deck. If it's an action card, gain a copy of it. Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
Thinker – Action - $6
+5 Cards
+1 Action
The player to your left looks at your hand and places a card from it onto your taboo mat.
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In games using this, when you buy no cards in your buy phase, you may discard a card from your taboo mat. Return all cards on the taboo mats to their owner's deck at the end of the game.
What about these modifications?
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Printing Press – Action - $5
+4 Cards
Reveal the bottom card of your deck. If it's an action card, gain a copy of it. Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
This is plenty strong even without the action copying. With the copying, I am sure its OP.
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Your hand size will be the same as if you used smithy.
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Your hand size will be the same as if you used smithy.
That's also true for Journeyman, but Journeyman doesn't gain you free Actions.
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+4 cards, discard a card is worlds better than +3 cards
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+4 cards, discard a card is worlds better than +3 cards
And also worlds better than +4 cards, bottomdeck a card. I think that without the Action-gaining, Printing Press would be comparable to Journeyman and Catacombs, definitely weaker than Torturer.
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And also worlds better than +4 cards, bottomdeck a card. I think that without the Action-gaining, Printing Press would be comparable to Journeyman and Catacombs, definitely weaker than Torturer.
Journeyman and Catacombs are pretty good cards. I would also say bottomdecking is usually worse than discarding, although it has its nice uses for enabling combos.
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And also worlds better than +4 cards, bottomdeck a card. I think that without the Action-gaining, Printing Press would be comparable to Journeyman and Catacombs, definitely weaker than Torturer.
Journeyman and Catacombs are pretty good cards. I would also say bottomdecking is usually worse than discarding, although it has its nice uses for enabling combos.
Yeah, that's what I was saying.
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And also worlds better than +4 cards, bottomdeck a card. I think that without the Action-gaining, Printing Press would be comparable to Journeyman and Catacombs, definitely weaker than Torturer.
Journeyman and Catacombs are pretty good cards. I would also say bottomdecking is usually worse than discarding, although it has its nice uses for enabling combos.
Yeah, that's what I was saying.
it's definitely worse, but it's not that much worse. in an engine, it might not even matter, if you just draw your deck anyway. for BM, it's kind of like courtyard.
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Thinker
So this is huge non-terminal draw that lets your opponent semi-Island one of your cards. Since there is a way to get cards back though, I'm not sure it's enough. With some +Buy and a decent $2 card (or Watchtower), the penalty is easy to overcome. Heck, with such huge draw, it could be OK to just buy Copper to get your cards back. I think it might be interesting if the removed cards were permanently gone (until the end of the game).
This nerf would make Thinker similar to (but probably far weaker than) Apprentice. Allowing your opponent to trash one of your cards (with a choice between ~nine cards and no cost restriction) would be a self-attack worse than almost all actual attacks on its own. You'd rarely want to play it with Provinces or other $7+ cards in your deck.
But I agree that the card seems too strong as is - what about only allowing to discard a Taboo card when you don't buy any cards >$3 in a turn?
I said until the end of the game, like with Island. Choosing Province would help you, not hurt you.
Right, I mis-thought; sorry. So Provinces are not a problem, only strong Actions/Treasures like Platinum, Prince or Possession would be. But weakening these super-strong cards may be interesting once in a while. So your fix would be fine, I suppose. You'll want to build a good deck without any individual very strong cards...