Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Elanchana on October 01, 2014, 03:03:04 pm
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"Okay my engine is almost done, time to..."
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Moneylender, Silver, Throne Room, Estate
"wait goko no"
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Throne Room
"goko what are you"
Elanchana Destler draws Copper, Throne Room, Estate, Province, Estate
"GOKO"
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Silver, Moneylender, Province, Estate
"STAHP"
So yeah, post all your terrible draws/shuffle luck here.
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Ha. Though, I really have to wonder what your deck composition was at that point...
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Plus:
"Goko plz"
I think there is meme potential here somewhere.
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Ha. Though, I really have to wonder what your deck composition was at that point...
I kind of cheated on the first post - those weren't consecutive draws and one of them was from a different game. But they all happened. In decks that were SUPPOSED to be streamlined by that point.
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I got a pretty spectacular draw fail just now...
Elanchana Destler draws Laboratory, Laboratory, Throne Room, Gold
Elanchana Destler shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler draws Gold
Oh good, two labs! This will be a good turn to double province!
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Moneylender, Estate
Elanchana Destler plays Throne Room
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Province, Estate
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Duchy, Duchy
...or not.
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Hmm, I'm noticing a pattern. Obviously you can't always trash Estates. But generally it should be a priority.
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Hmm, I'm noticing a pattern. Obviously you can't always trash Estates. But generally it should be a priority.
It looks like they are playing base-only. There aren't many Estate trashers in base-only.
In any case, it is hard to tell whether something is bad luck or bad planning with just one line of log.
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It looks like a bunch of base-only games, and if she has moneylender, there's probably no chapel. I'm willing to bet estate trashing wasn't an option on several of these boards.
If remodel is around, though, take one. It's no chapel, but it can at least pick up a few silvers, and turn moneylender into gold when the coppers are gone. Base is light on trashing, but you still oughta take what you can.
Edit: Ninja-ed by soulnet.
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I'm kind of questioning the Throne Rooms. But hard to judge from just a couple lines.
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except chapel was on the board. Game logs are super easy to find using the Salvager Log Search (http://gokosalvager.com/logsearch?p1name=Elanchana+Destler&p1score=any&p2name=&startdate=08%2F05%2F2012&enddate=10%2F01%2F2014&supply=moneylender%2C+laboratory%2C+throne+room&nonsupply=&rating=any&pcount=2&colony=any&bot=false&shelters=any&guest=false&minturns=&maxturns=&quit=false&resign=any&limit=20&submitted=true&offset=0)
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If you are building an engine, you should almost always open Chapel.
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I got a pretty spectacular draw fail just now...
Elanchana Destler draws Laboratory, Laboratory, Throne Room, Gold
Elanchana Destler shuffles deck
Elanchana Destler draws Gold
Oh good, two labs! This will be a good turn to double province!
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Moneylender, Estate
Elanchana Destler plays Throne Room
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Province, Estate
Elanchana Destler plays Laboratory
Elanchana Destler draws Duchy, Duchy
...or not.
As an aside, it is usually better to throne the first Laboratory here, to maximize the number of cards you can draw, and thus your chances of kicking off whatever engine you've got going. The disaster scenario, the way you played it, is that the first Lab draws a Throne Room, and then when you throne the second you don't draw anything useful. If you had throned the first one, you could now throne the second.
If you are starved for +actions instead of +cards, then the way you did it could be better, hoping to Throne-Throne-Lab-Lab, which saves you an action compared to my way. But if you have plenty of actions (as you often will if throned Labs are your backbone), then there's no need to be greedy and hope you can throne a throne: the potential upside is only one extra +action, and the downside is your turn ends way too soon if you draw badly.
Since your deck at that point (http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141001/log.53ddf71fe4b09f0d8fe135bc.1412192924617.txt#1-16) contained only two terminals in total, you definitely didn't need the actions! Obviously it wouldn't have mattered, since you didn't draw your other Throne Room, but it's best to avoid the possibility of danger when you can.
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Chapel strategies never work for me on a 4/3 opening split with that board - they way too often pop up with cards that I don't want to trash, money I need for a buy, or terminals that make them unusable.
Anyway, I created this thread so that other people could post their unlucky draws as well as me.
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Chapel strategies never work for me on a 4/3 opening split with that board - they way too often pop up with money I need for a buy
On chapel turns you won't be able to buy anything.
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Chapel strategies never work for me on a 4/3 opening split with that board - they way too often pop up with money I need for a buy
On chapel turns you won't be able to buy anything.
It took me a while to learn this. Now I'm usually ok with trashing all 4 copper if I draw them with my chapel. although I usually have a buy a silver with my 3 copper left. I still think its a good idea to do.
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Chapel strategies never work for me on a 4/3 opening split with that board - they way too often pop up with money I need for a buy
On chapel turns you won't be able to buy anything.
If I have enough money for an essential card and trashing a copper would prevent me from getting it, I can't exactly trash the copper then, can I?
Someone make this thread about general bad draws and not about me please.
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This is Dominion Strategy. Most posts here are going to involve strategy at some point.
You can trash the Copper, and in lots of cases you should. But you know, depends on board, situation, etc.
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Someone make this thread about general bad draws and not about me please.
The problem is that anyone who wanted to post about general bad draws already could have, in a new thread: there's nothing "exciting" about a thread you've created that invites bad-beat posts. But the games you posted do have some interesting strategic elements, and as this is a forum about dominion strategy, folks are trying to help you improve your play by talking about the games. If you really want this thread to be "only" about bad draws, it will probably just die out without a single post; I don't see much point in asking for that to be the thread's topic (even though that's what the title said). If, instead, you want to change the subject because you're feeling ganged-up-on by numerous posts that seem to be saying you played badly, that's another matter. If that's the problem, say so, and others will either adjust their tone or stop replying, because they really are just trying to be helpful to you.
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(http://www.memegenerator.es/imagenes/memes/41/12901459.jpg)
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Also, the sort of implicit idea here is that "bad luck" is a lot more about deck construction than about actual bad luck. Or: "you make your own shuffle luck".
So, the posts analyzing deck construction and what led to those draws are actually about "luck" in that sense.
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(http://www.memegenerator.es/imagenes/memes/41/12901459.jpg)
You make your own forum luck.
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Bad luck does exist in Dominion. Trust me, I have had my share of games where my draws sucked and vice versa.
However, there are also times where bad luck could be mitigated. I don't think a thread about bad luck is a bad thing, however, getting advice and feedback can also be helpful if it seems that somewhere the game could have been played differently which could lead to less bad luck.
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Someone make this thread about general bad draws and not about me please.
The problem is that anyone who wanted to post about general bad draws already could have, in a new thread: there's nothing "exciting" about a thread you've created that invites bad-beat posts. But the games you posted do have some interesting strategic elements, and as this is a forum about dominion strategy, folks are trying to help you improve your play by talking about the games. If you really want this thread to be "only" about bad draws, it will probably just die out without a single post; I don't see much point in asking for that to be the thread's topic (even though that's what the title said). If, instead, you want to change the subject because you're feeling ganged-up-on by numerous posts that seem to be saying you played badly, that's another matter. If that's the problem, say so, and others will either adjust their tone or stop replying, because they really are just trying to be helpful to you.
Okay, fair enough. The reason why I'm a bit squirrely about the strategy replies is because I already made a thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11807.msg421733) asking for help about effective chapeling, so I didn't want this to become a duplicate. But anyway, thanks for the help (and not completely destroying my life on the forum). Lock the thread if you want, theory, or if anyone else actually does have some game-changing bad luck hands - you know, like, picking up 4 smithies and one treasure in a vill/smith deck - feel free to post them. Please don't ban me?
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This is Dominion Strategy. Most posts here are going to involve strategy Mafia, Maths or Memes at some point.
FTFY
Okay, fair enough. The reason why I'm a bit squirrely about the strategy replies is because I already made a thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11807.msg421733) asking for help about effective chapeling, so I didn't want this to become a duplicate. But anyway, thanks for the help (and not completely destroying my life on the forum). Lock the thread if you want, theory, or if anyone else actually does have some game-changing bad luck hands - you know, like, picking up 4 smithies and one treasure in a vill/smith deck - feel free to post them. Please don't ban me?
Don't worry, you're fine. :)
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This is Dominion Strategy. Most posts here are going to involve strategy Mafia, Maths or Memes at some point.
(http://i.imgur.com/0wjjo9T.jpg)
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Please don't ban me?
Oh god, you had a terrible experience from that "when to green" thread, didn't you? Bans are extremely rare here. I've only ever seen it happen in cases where someone either swore vociferously at others or tried to use the forum to plan definitely-illegal things. Getting annoyed when people derail the intended purpose of your thread is definitely not on the list.
On the subject of posting bad draws, I think you'll find that people here are unlikely to join in because most of us have realized that usually there's something you could have done better to avoid such a draw or mitigate bad luck that did occur. Not to say that there isn't luck in Dominion (because there certainly is), but as one forumite likes to say "You make your own shuffle luck." If I really can't figure out what went wrong and it looks to me like bad luck, then I'll sometimes post on the forum, but usually under the title of "What did I do wrong?" Very occasionally the top players who look at it will say that it really does look like I got unlucky (it happened once with a rebuild game), but usually they point out dozens of mistakes that I made that lead to my "bad luck."
On the topic of chapel. Just try trashing indiscriminately. Any of the first three shuffles where you draw chapel and any coppers or estates, trash them. It is almost always better to trash and skip your turn. Obviously, things are much more nuanced than this, but new players tend to undertrash rather than overtrash.
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Yeah, people don't usually get banned here, and when they do, they definitely have a good reason to get banned. Count Grishnakh had a history of causing shitstorms on the forum, and in the greening thread he was being extremely aggressive and rude towards pretty much everyone without having anything worth saying to say — this is not the case here.
It is common for threads to get derailed here. Usually it's not a problem — people still post in the thread when they have something to say on the original topic, so it serves its purpose, and when people have something to say about something else, the conversation flows naturally without the need to have one conversation in multiple threads. If it becomes a problem (i.e. if an offtopic discussion starts actively hurting the ability to use the thread for its original purpose), theory usually splits the thread so that people can continue the conversation, but the thread can still be used for what it was originally meant for. So you don't have to worry about it.
as one forumite likes to say "You make your own shuffle luck."
More like every forumite at this point.
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as one forumite likes to say "You make your own shuffle luck."
More like every forumite at this point.
This makes me so happy.
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as one forumite likes to say "You make your own shuffle luck."
More like every forumite at this point.
This makes me so happy.
You make your own happy.
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Elanchana Destler: turn 2
(...)
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
supermonkey: turn 2
(...)
supermonkey draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Copper, Estate
Contrary to popular belief, you don't always make your own shuffle luck.
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Elanchana Destler: turn 2
(...)
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
supermonkey: turn 2
(...)
supermonkey draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Copper, Estate
Contrary to popular belief, you don't always make your own shuffle luck.
You bought a noble brigand on turn one with 5 coins? I think you made your own (and his) shuffle luck.
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Elanchana Destler: turn 2
(...)
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
supermonkey: turn 2
(...)
supermonkey draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Copper, Estate
Contrary to popular belief, you don't always make your own shuffle luck.
You bought a noble brigand on turn one with 5 coins? I think you made your own (and his) shuffle luck.
Uh.......no? We both got 5/2 - I opened Chapel/Market (which is usually a win for me) and he/she opened Chapel/Lab.
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Elanchana Destler: turn 2
(...)
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
supermonkey: turn 2
(...)
supermonkey draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Copper, Estate
Contrary to popular belief, you don't always make your own shuffle luck.
You bought a noble brigand on turn one with 5 coins? I think you made your own (and his) shuffle luck.
Huh? The cards you draw on turn 2 are the ones you'll be playing on turn 3. This looks like a totally normal draw in a Chapel/X opening, where X is definitely not Noble Brigand.
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Elanchana Destler: turn 2
(...)
Elanchana Destler draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
supermonkey: turn 2
(...)
supermonkey draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Copper, Estate
Contrary to popular belief, you don't always make your own shuffle luck.
You bought a noble brigand on turn one with 5 coins? I think you made your own (and his) shuffle luck.
Huh? The cards you draw on turn 2 are the ones you'll be playing on turn 3. This looks like a totally normal draw in a Chapel/X opening, where X is definitely not Noble Brigand.
ahh, oops, got confused by the turn 2 heading, didn't realize it was cleanup phase. Sorry.
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BeRen: turn 3
BeRen plays Swindler
ThaddeusB reveals Copper
ThaddeusB trashes Copper
ThaddeusB gains Curse
BeRen: turn 6
BeRen plays Swindler
ThaddeusB reveals Copper
ThaddeusB trashes Copper
ThaddeusB gains Curse
BeRen plays Swindler
ThaddeusB reveals Copper
ThaddeusB trashes Copper
ThaddeusB gains Curse
BeRen: turn 7
BeRen plays Swindler
ThaddeusB reveals Copper
ThaddeusB trashes Copper
ThaddeusB gains Curse
BeRen: turn 8
BeRen plays Swindler
ThaddeusB reveals Copper
ThaddeusB trashes Copper
ThaddeusB gains Curse
That's his first 5 Swindler plays... Then later, when I was trying to comeback after trashing the curses one by one with Hermit (the only trasher on the board)
ThaddeusB: turn 15
ThaddeusB plays Swindler
BeRen reveals Province
BeRen trashes Province
BeRen gains Province
ThaddeusB: turn 21
ThaddeusB plays Swindler
BeRen reveals Province
BeRen trashes Province
BeRen gains Province
ThaddeusB plays Swindler
BeRen reveals Province
BeRen trashes Province
BeRen gains Province
(of 3 total Provinces)
ThaddeusB: turn 24
ThaddeusB plays Swindler
BeRen reveals Overgrown Estate
BeRen trashes Overgrown Estate
BeRen draws Gold
ThaddeusB plays Swindler
BeRen reveals Province
BeRen trashes Province
BeRen gains Province
I can safely say this is by far the best/worst Swindler luck I've ever seen.
(Edit) Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141014/log.53be12a0e4b00ccce8075fbc.1413318661104.txt
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Playing multiple Swindlers turns 21 and 24 seems questionable...
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Playing multiple Swindlers turns 21 and 24 seems questionable...
Sorry, forgot the log. It was Processioned both times as I needed the coin and didn't need the card anymore... I probably played poorly in many spots though; I was pretty much tilted after the 4th straight Copper-Curse Swindle left my deck utterly destroyed.
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Well, the swindling coppers into curses is actually not that bad. I usually worry about my $5s becoming Duchies or my $4s becoming Scouts. But, swindling all those Provinces is a bit crazy,
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(strongly prefer lab/chapel to market/chapel on a 5/2 as it gives better chance of finding the chapel and matching it to desired targets while the difference in economy is modest. lab in an over-drawn deck isn't the hottest thing, but it helps reliability, which is not to be underrated.)