Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Goko Dominion Online => Topic started by: pingpongsam on August 21, 2014, 11:12:54 am
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Now that I have your attention, I'm hoping this is why the site is currently down and not because it just goes down for fun.
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Site is now back up, no Prince. There is, however, two copies of Stache in the Promo section of the store.
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Site is now back up, no Prince. There is, however, two copies of Stache in the Promo section of the store.
That has always been the case.
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Site is now back up, no Prince. There is, however, two copies of Stache in the Promo section of the store.
That has always been the case.
Yes, but it is now the case as well.
Fun Fact: I got booted out of 4 games consecutively after this episode. And by booted I mean by the 1st or second turn I was logged out and had to log back in and the game counted as a loss for me (I suspect tot he other player I appeared to do nothing at all).
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There is, however, two copies of Stache in the Promo section of the store.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8930421/dominion/stache.png)
(by eHalcyon (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg407662#msg407662))
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That's the one.
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Prince is on goko ?
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?5097-Release-Notes-8-28-2014
but there is nothing in the store
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It's there! It costs twice as much - 200 VP or 20 goko coins
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Strangely I can't see it !
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Nice, I see it under chrome but not under firefox ;)
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It's there! It costs twice as much - 200 VP or 20 goko coins
Curious as to when the first bug will be found...
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Well I just bought it, tried setting up a casual game with a bot.......wont load
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Clearing the cache made Prince show up for me.
I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever. Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.
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Well I just bought it, tried setting up a casual game with a bot.......wont load
same here :( (http://www.sadtrombone.com/?play=true)
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Clearing the cache made Prince show up for me.
Yes, it works !
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Post logs!
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Post logs!
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140828/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1409252502679.txt
No strategy, just try to put a scheme in the prince and after the bridge keeping all turn my second Prince in hand with my Princed scheme. I just put my bridge in my Prince when my opponent finish to buy all the province ;)
Viewer seems to be broken by Prince : https://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140828/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1409252502679.txt
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Why is it 200VP shields? Why?! Now I'll never get it!!
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Why is it 200VP shields? Why?! Now I'll never get it!!
It is a slap in the face. I'm guessing they're really hard up for cash.
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Prince costs 20 gokoins, yet the fewest number of gokoins you can buy is 40. Thanks...
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Yes! Awesome! Awesome! Awesome!
I was planning on buying 40 gokoins anyway, so whatever.
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Prince costs 20 gokoins, yet the fewest number of gokoins you can buy is 40. Thanks...
That makes sense (a little):
You can get WW, Governor and Envoy for 300 VP chips from Adventures.
And you can get BM, Stash and Prince for 40 Gokoins.
I had 20 Gokoins left from my BM and Stash buy earlier :)
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Anyone want to play some casual prince games against me
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Anyone want to play some casual prince games against me
I will, I'm in outpost
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I will meet you there
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If I were running online Dominion, I'd have theme weeks (or fortnights?) in pro mode. When creating a game, you can choose between playing full random or according to the theme. For example, this week, the theme would be "every kingdom has Prince". Themes for other weeks could be things like biasing one expansion, or just selecting the cards from some two expansions, and so on. The point being that these are still pretty fair modes to influence pro rating and provide some variety.
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If I were running online Dominion, I'd have theme weeks (or fortnights?) in pro mode. When creating a game, you can choose between playing full random or according to the theme. For example, this week, the theme would be "every kingdom has Prince". Themes for other weeks could be things like biasing one expansion, or just selecting the cards from some two expansions, and so on. The point being that these are still pretty fair modes to influence pro rating and provide some variety.
And whatever cards you don't have, are replaced by a random card from your collection.
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Sweet, now there are more cards for which there is too much lag to play with them.
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Here is a cool Bridge megaturn engine I pulled off with Prince in a game against Archetype. I forgot about Stonemason for an earlier buy. I could have actually got two Prince's at once sooner.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140828/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1409269887439.txt
For some reason, the log says Parsing right now...
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Here is a cool Bridge megaturn engine I pulled off with Prince in a game against Archetype. I forgot about Stonemason for an earlier buy. I could have actually got two Prince's at once sooner.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140828/log.50612f220cf2d91d287a93b8.1409269887439.txt
For some reason, the log says Parsing right now...
Most likely, the parser doesn't know how to handle Prince, so it's crashing somewhere.
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Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?
In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.
Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.
In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.
The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.
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Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?
In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.
Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.
In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.
The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.
On some boards it is not useful, but on other boards, it is a must buy and a rush to get to Prince first. It is actually a very strong card when it is strong.
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You don't need a reliable engine in order to connect Prince with the card you want to Prince (hopefully your +cards). Pulling it off once is good enough, and even unreliable engines are capable of that. And then Prince probably makes it reliable.
Actually, you don't even need any engine at all. It's probably very slightly easier to connect as Tournament (both require a $8 card, Tournament is always non-terminal which makes it easier to buy in large quantities but it can be bad later when your opponent has the Province, and it always costs $4 while Prince targets can be cheaper), and I frequently connect Tournaments with Provinces in not-very-engine decks.
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Tournament has a number of advantages:
- You would be buying provinces anyway, so there's no opportunity cost with the $8, unlike with Prince where you must forgo a Province. This is a big deal since grabbing multiple Provinces is fine but buying multiple Princes before connecting is extremely slow.
- It's usually OK to get a few tournaments before connecting, which is not always true of the card you wish to pair with Prince. e.g. If you want to pair Prince with Smithy on a board with no villages, massing Smithy to increase connection chance is problematic.
- Tournament connection gives you an immediate big benefit that turn (Followers, anyway) while Prince doesn't start providing benefits until the next turn.
I currently expect that Prince will end up in a similar spot to Possession: typically a dead slot but very strong when viable. I don't have a good sense for what kingdoms those are yet.
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I think there's a lot of assumptions here that you have to connect Prince with one specific card. In reality, I'm usually willing to Prince whatever target is handy. It's usually still a big boost.
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I played an in-person game with Prince the other day - I ended up Princing Crossroads, Oasis and Menagerie. By having Oasis go first (typically), I ensured that Menagerie would go off, so I was starting my turn with 8 cards and 6 Actions. Yeah, you can't really say that Prince is weak - even a card that would normally be considered "eh" to weak is quite powerful if it's played for free every turn.
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I played an in-person game with Prince the other day - I ended up Princing Crossroads, Oasis and Menagerie. By having Oasis go first (typically), I ensured that Menagerie would go off, so I was starting my turn with 8 cards and 6 Actions. Yeah, you can't really say that Prince is weak - even a card that would normally be considered "eh" to weak is quite powerful if it's played for free every turn.
Though, it's mostly the Menagerie that makes it that strong, and it's definitely not considered "eh" to weak.
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im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win
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im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win
Tack on 6VP to Prince. Problem solved.
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Now that people have played with Prince a little, anyone feel like it's a bit weak?
In more kingdoms than I expected, there either isn't any action to connect it with at all, or it's an action that's not super inspiring to play at the start of your turn or that you don't want to mass enough of to make connecting easy.
Okay, so let's assume that the kingdom has an action worth princing. Then there is a dilemma: to reliably connect Prince with the action you want, it's kinda necessary to have a decent engine going, but if you DO have a decent engine going, Prince is likely to be very slow relative to the game pace. Barring some fanciness with gainers, you need at least two turns that are hampered by setup: buying the Prince, and princing the action. In a draw-your-deck engine, princing the action can sometimes be a drag because you lose out on the action's effect on that turn. Engines also get less value from the reliability added by Prince, because they needed to be reliable in the first place to connect.
In an engine, Prince also loses value because, at the point you're able to connect it, what you typically want is to increase the payload of your engine, and Prince does not do that. Compare to KC, where if you need to draw your deck to connect it, that may still be OK because it can power a megaturn.
The uses outside an engine feel horribly unreliable. It may sometimes win the game, but surely it's lower expected value than just taking a Province.
If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action. And $8 is pretty expensive for a Village, or consider Herald at $4. So the part about the engine seems about right, but only for the really smooth engines.
There are a lot of in-between enginey things, where you have a bunch of useful action cards and some treasures and in those games Prince might work well. With engines we usually think of an all-action card deck with no Coppers or Estates and maybe 1 stray Silver. And we think there is only engine or big money, but there's a lot in between.
And for those in-between strategies, Prince is a bit of a gambit. It can definitely be fantastic if you get it early and connect early, and horrible if it's a dead Province worth 0 VP. It's a bit like Treasure Map that way.
In my view the closest I can compare it with is Possession: A big opportunity cost and you need some luck with it. You can possess someone's hand of 3 Estates and 2 Provinces or Possess someone's megaturn.
But Prince in Colony games should be pretty powerful, we're also buying Platinums instead of Provinces, are we not?
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If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action.
that's wrong though, you get a free action and a free card. Prince Lab, now you start each turn with 7 cards and 2 actions, not 6 cards and 2 actions
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I think prince is best in kingdoms short on cards and actions. If you can draw your deck and play every card reliably, prince does nothing. Prince is good for that extra reliability and power in a weak engine.
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im not saying that prince is weak, but this is a really bad example. princing 3 cards has an opportune cost of probably about 4 provinces, which is almost as much as you need to ensure a win
Princing the first card makes it a lot easier to Prince the second card though. And Princing the second card makes it a lot easier to Prince the third card. Buying a Province makes it more difficult to buy another Province.
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If you are Princing a card you were able to play every turn anyway, you've only won a free action.
that's wrong though, you get a free action and a free card. Prince Lab, now you start each turn with 7 cards and 2 actions, not 6 cards and 2 actions
That's true, but still it doesn't seem worth it to play Prince on a card you're able to play anyway. I could understand it for the extra action, but doing it for an extra card you're able to draw anyway seems pointless.
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I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever. Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.
As I understand it, it's (supposed to be) only a change of interface. You could always play bots using pro or casual as you prefered, when using the multiplayer lobby. ::)
The most user-friendly way would obviously be to have "Play bots" buttons for both casual and pro games; maybe next year...
Or do you mean the fact that the top 50 of the Pro leaderboard is now dominated by (to me) unknowns, many of which sound like Adventure bots? Maybe MF is now mixing up adventures and pro games, or is there an explanation for this?? I don't think it can be just because there are more bot pro games now...
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I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever. Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.
As I understand it, it's (supposed to be) only a change of interface. You could always play bots using pro or casual as you prefered, when using the multiplayer lobby. ::)
The most user-friendly way would obviously be to have "Play bots" buttons for both casual and pro games; maybe next year...
Or do you mean the fact that the top 50 of the Pro leaderboard is now dominated by (to me) unknowns, many of which sound like Adventure bots? Maybe MF is now mixing up adventures and pro games, or is there an explanation for this?? I don't think it can be just because there are more bot pro games now...
The fact that that happened is proof of my concern. There is no way Stef, for instance, should be ranked as low as he is with these changes. They should have at least worked out the issues before changing over.
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Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.
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Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.
You should go bug David on the MakingFun forums. He seems to listen to people, if nothing else.
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Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.
Did you clear your cache?
Anyway, all this talk about buying Province over Prince is wrong. I don't know about you, but I usually tried to hold off from greening as long as possible. So, on your first $8, one rarely wants Province, so in many cases getting that Prince is often the right choice. It is also a lot easier to buy Prince over Possession because Possession requires that you have to get a Potion.
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I have a feeling Prince might work better as a Potion card, costing something like 4P or 5P.
At 4P it's the same cost as Golem and they do feel similar to me. Golem always hits 2 action cards, but not the ones in your hand. Prince always plays 1 $4- card, but they both have to be in your hand when you set it up.
Golem and Prince just seem like cousins, I guess Golem is from the poor side of the family.
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Makingfun just charged $4 to my credit card for 40 gokoins andddd..... I still have no gokoins.
Did you clear your cache?
How would I go about doing that?
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Using Chrome?
Ctrl + Shift + delete, check "Cached images and files" and hit "Clear Browsing Data." Then refresh the page.
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Prince isn't in the Kingdom Generator thing that Salvager has. Unless I don't have the latest version of Salvager?
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Still no gokoins. If it's not resolved tomorrow I'll complain.
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Prince isn't in the Kingdom Generator thing that Salvager has. Unless I don't have the latest version of Salvager?
It is if you have the beta version (2.5.4.9), it works for me on Chrome.
Still no gokoins. If it's not resolved tomorrow I'll complain.
If you ask David on MakingFuns Forum, he tends to complain to the engineers, and it gets fixed quite quickly.
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I would jump on it if I were you. Issues like that should not be happening period, and they don't need to be shown patience with such things.
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Ah, I don't have the beta version, only the latest release (2.5.4.5).
Not that I can effectively play on Goko anyway~
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I am wary of this change they made about Bots using the Pro Rating now, but whatever. Those ratings probably won't be around forever anyway.
As I understand it, it's (supposed to be) only a change of interface. You could always play bots using pro or casual as you prefered, when using the multiplayer lobby. ::)
The most user-friendly way would obviously be to have "Play bots" buttons for both casual and pro games; maybe next year...
Or do you mean the fact that the top 50 of the Pro leaderboard is now dominated by (to me) unknowns, many of which sound like Adventure bots? Maybe MF is now mixing up adventures and pro games, or is there an explanation for this?? I don't think it can be just because there are more bot pro games now...
The fact that that happened is proof of my concern. There is no way Stef, for instance, should be ranked as low as he is with these changes. They should have at least worked out the issues before changing over.
Yes, the leaderboard is totally messed up now; but I see no connection to the reported change of the "Play vs. Bots" button. Playing bots in pro games was possible before, only more tedious and probably less known; I've played lots of bot pro games. But it was hard to get above a ranking of ~5500 by only playing bots in my experience, because the bots are ranked so low (the non-serf bots usually have pro ratings between 2000 and 4000.) And lots of the top leaderboard entries sound like Adventure bots, which shouldn't ever have a pro ranking.
Edit: I've checked: Neither of the current top 3 players (which do not sound like bots) is listed on Isotropish, so they must be bugs (or recognized cheaters), I think.
Some non-existing players/"adventure bots" have been at the top of the pro leaderboard for weeks, so this is probably a slightly older bug (though it seems to have become far worse):
Hello,
who is Maiden Abigail, Squire Edwin, Maiden Marjoria?
Is this from Goko or is this some new kind of exploit?
(http://i.imgur.com/jwLZRDR.gif)
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I would jump on it if I were you. Issues like that should not be happening period, and they don't need to be shown patience with such things.
You're right, I'll do that now.
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I would jump on it if I were you. Issues like that should not be happening period, and they don't need to be shown patience with such things.
You're right, I'll do that now.
yeah, people on top of the leaderboard shouldn't be left waiting
(http://i.imgur.com/FlXR1Gp.png)
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I would jump on it if I were you. Issues like that should not be happening period, and they don't need to be shown patience with such things.
You're right, I'll do that now.
yeah, people on top of the leaderboard shouldn't be left waiting
(http://i.imgur.com/FlXR1Gp.png)
How dare you speak out of turn. Now bow. Bow before me!
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Prince and duration cards. I set aside a Haven and it worked for one turn. Then it stopped and the prince did nothing ever again.
Is this a bug or is prince not supposed to work with duration cards. Thanks.
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Prince and duration cards. I set aside a Haven and it worked for one turn. Then it stopped and the prince did nothing ever again.
Is this a bug or is prince not supposed to work with duration cards. Thanks.
It's correct, think a proper answer is in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11290.0
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It's correct, think a proper answer is in http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11290.0
Thank you Joseph. This is clear now. Have a nice day.
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I have played against a few opponents who tried setting aside a duration with Prince. I guess it is a common mistake to make.
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With Hermit, the implementation assumes that you're making the play that's usually correct (not trashing Hermit).
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140904/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1409821737631.txt
---------- awaclus: turn 10 ----------
awaclus - duration Prince
awaclus - plays Hermit
awaclus - gains Storeroom
awaclus - plays Treasury
awaclus - draws Curse
awaclus - gains Madman
awaclus - places Treasury on top of deck
awaclus - draws Treasury, Soothsayer, Conspirator, Urchin, Gold
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With Hermit, the implementation assumes that you're making the play that's usually correct (not trashing Hermit).
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140904/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1409821737631.txt
---------- awaclus: turn 10 ----------
awaclus - duration Prince
awaclus - plays Hermit
awaclus - gains Storeroom
awaclus - plays Treasury
awaclus - draws Curse
awaclus - gains Madman
awaclus - places Treasury on top of deck
awaclus - draws Treasury, Soothsayer, Conspirator, Urchin, Gold
I'll make explicit what's not entirely clear from the quoted log: Awaclus goes on to gain a Madman a turn from his Princed Hermit.
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Fun thing to do on a possession turn: set aside opponent's Princes, so they become useless.
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140904/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1409834670992.txt
They resigned straight after though.
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With Hermit, the implementation assumes that you're making the play that's usually correct (not trashing Hermit).
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140904/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1409821737631.txt
---------- awaclus: turn 10 ----------
awaclus - duration Prince
awaclus - plays Hermit
awaclus - gains Storeroom
awaclus - plays Treasury
awaclus - draws Curse
awaclus - gains Madman
awaclus - places Treasury on top of deck
awaclus - draws Treasury, Soothsayer, Conspirator, Urchin, Gold
But what if I want to reveal market square? Curse you goko!
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Fun thing to do on a possession turn: set aside opponent's Princes, so they become useless.
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140904/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1409834670992.txt
They resigned straight after though.
Who the hell saves Coin tokens after their opponent buys a Possession?
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Sent Goko $4, have Prince, rewarded by vaulting to #13 on the leaderboard.
Still cannot buy 2 of the promos because they are not available for Gokoins and there is no means to get the necessary number of VP tokens.
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http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140911/log.5095c9e7e4b0ad8504cc6c50.1410441654931.txt
My opponent learned a lesson for me; don't Prince a Knight you'll leave a widowed Prince.
I feel proud of the board design. I felt it encouraged several options for play and the Knights were a goto option for disrupting your opponent's plan (just don't Prince them!).
I was surprised at how pedestrian a Princed Bridge felt. I will say, though, having 2 Princed cards is pretty great. I think the card is really a lot of fun with the right board to encourage going for it.
Edit: How do I do that thing where all the cards are graphically displayed?
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http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140911/log.5095c9e7e4b0ad8504cc6c50.1410443489093.txt
Same set again, quite a fun game. Prince is definitely a card to go for in this board.
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Edit: How do I do that thing where all the cards are graphically displayed?
You find the game here (http://gokosalvager.com/) and click on "Kingdom".
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Edit: How do I do that thing where all the cards are graphically displayed?
You find the game here (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/) and click on "Kingdom".
Sorry for the digression, but does log search work for everyone else? When searching with my player name, it doesn't find any games I played since New Year's Day; but funnily, some appear when searching for my opponent's name...
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Sorry for the digression, but does log search work for everyone else? When searching with my player name, it doesn't find any games I played since New Year's Day; but funnily, some appear when searching for my opponent's name...
I can find my own games but not yours. Have you changed your goko username since New Year's? If so, that's probably the reason. If not, post in the Salvager thread about the issue and AI will probably look into it.
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Edit: How do I do that thing where all the cards are graphically displayed?
You find the game here (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/) and click on "Kingdom".
Use gokosalvager.com (http://gokosalvager.com), not gokologs.drunkensailor.org, please. Andrew is trying to retire the old domain.
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Edit: How do I do that thing where all the cards are graphically displayed?
You find the game here (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/) and click on "Kingdom".
Use gokosalvager.com (http://gokosalvager.com), not gokologs.drunkensailor.org, please. Andrew is trying to retire the old domain.
Thanks. I always grab the link out of the online resources (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9198.0) thread, then try and remember what I'm supposed to switch drunkensailor to, then give up and just post the thing. Andrew, if you're reading this, could you update the links I keep copying?
EDIT: Unsurprising that switching drunkensailor to goko* never worked if I also needed to delete the subdomain.
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Sorry for the digression, but does log search work for everyone else? When searching with my player name, it doesn't find any games I played since New Year's Day; but funnily, some appear when searching for my opponent's name...
I can find my own games but not yours. Have you changed your goko username since New Year's? If so, that's probably the reason. If not, post in the Salvager thread about the issue and AI will probably look into it.
No, I've never changed my username. I'll post there, then...