Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: GendoIkari on August 10, 2014, 11:08:25 pm
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I saw a mention of a possible idea on BGG from a long time ago, and I'm wondering if it's an idea worth exploring for fan cards.
The card suggested was something like "+2 cards. You may spend an extra action, if you do, trash up to 2 cards from your hand."
So in general, what about the idea of spending extra actions for a more powerful effect? Of course, in games without Villages, those more powerful effects could never happen, but that shouldn't be a problem (sometimes Conspirator and Tunnel just can't do what they're meant to).
I'm not sure of the ideal wording, as "spending actions" is not defined in the rules. But I think "spend an action" is probably the best way to phrase it. You could do -1 action (which I've seen on fan cards), but that doesn't make it clear that you have to have another action available in order to do the effect.
Also, this sort of thing really could only be on terminals; otherwise the whole thing could be rephrased as a choice where only 1 choice gives you +1 action. So it's basically like a "double terminal".
I guess the tricky thing would be how to balance how powerful the extra effect should be. It needs to be powerful enough that it's worth it in games where +actions are scarce, but it can't be too good, or else it's overpowered in games where +actions rampant.
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Squire and Pawn !
Squire is +1$, +2 actions, You may spend 2 extra actions, if you do, choose +2 buy or gain a silver.
Pawn is +1 action, choose +1$, +1 card or +1 buy, You may spend 1 extra action, if you do choose again (but different from the first choice) +1$, +1 card or +1 buy
;)
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I guess the tricky thing would be how to balance how powerful the extra effect should be. It needs to be powerful enough that it's worth it in games where +actions are scarce, but it can't be too good, or else it's overpowered in games where +actions rampant.
You could do the Hamlet thing where you could choose to use either or both of the card's effects.
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I would use "while this is in play, you can use an action to ...".
An interesting variation could be a duration card that is left there in play at the start of your next turn, so you could use your action for this effect then. Then it could be useful even when there are no villages.
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Card A
$5 Action
+3 cards
If you have any actions left, you may gain a Card B from the Card B pile into your hand.
Card B
$0* Action - Attack
Each other player discards down to 4 cards in his hand at random. Return this to the Card B pile.
(This is not in the supply.)
Unlike GendoIkari's idea, this allows you to save the extra effect for later, but I don't think you'd ever actually want that. EDIT: Or actually maybe you do want to gain the card before you know that all of your villages are at the bottom of your deck, then later end up using all of your actions for more important stuff. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just different from the original idea.
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Oops, this was supposed to be in variants and fan cards.
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Oops, this was supposed to be in variants and fan cards.
...that was fast.
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Oops, this was supposed to be in variants and fan cards.
...that was fast.
Are you referring to how fast Theory was in moving it after I said that, or was it a sarcastic remark about how long it took me to realize I put it in the wrong forum? I posted it last night and just didn't check back on it until now.
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Oops, this was supposed to be in variants and fan cards.
...that was fast.
Are you referring to how fast Theory was in moving it after I said that, or was it a sarcastic remark about how long it took me to realize I put it in the wrong forum? I posted it last night and just didn't check back on it until now.
The former. Actually, I didn't notice that it was in the wrong forum until I read that post of yours, and since it had already been moved at that point, I was like "what is he talking about, it is in variants and fan cards".
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I don't like the idea presented here because the extra effects can't be accessed unless there are splitters (Village types) in the game. LastFootnote's similar Activation cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10563.0) remain in play until they have been activated by spending an action (and turning them sideways to indicate that). Since they remain in play until used, you can always access the effect. Activation cards give a level of flexibility that the concept here does not since you get to keep the ability of Activation cards around until you use them.
I think the concept here can work, but the cards necessarily have to give additional actions so that you'll be able to use their "spend actions" effects and then they're just "choose one" cards written differently. I could see an expansion built around Activation cards having a couple cards using this concept on terminal cards.
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I don't like the idea presented here because the extra effects can't be accessed unless there are splitters (Village types) in the game. LastFootnote's similar Activation cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10563.0) remain in play until they have been activated by spending an action (and turning them sideways to indicate that). Since they remain in play until used, you can always access the effect. Activation cards give a level of flexibility that the concept here does not since you get to keep the ability of Activation cards around until you use them.
I think the concept here can work, but the cards necessarily have to give additional actions so that you'll be able to use their "spend actions" effects and then they're just "choose one" cards written differently. I could see an expansion built around Activation cards having a couple cards using this concept on terminal cards.
I hadn't seen the Activation cards thread, that is indeed a better version of this idea. But I don't agree that this idea is bad just because it won't work without villages in the kingdom. As long as the card still does something worth buying without being able to use the extra clause. Market Square, Tunnel, Conspirator, (any on-trash effects actually) all have a mechanic that in some Kingdoms can never be used.
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I don't like the idea presented here because the extra effects can't be accessed unless there are splitters (Village types) in the game. LastFootnote's similar Activation cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10563.0) remain in play until they have been activated by spending an action (and turning them sideways to indicate that). Since they remain in play until used, you can always access the effect. Activation cards give a level of flexibility that the concept here does not since you get to keep the ability of Activation cards around until you use them.
I think the concept here can work, but the cards necessarily have to give additional actions so that you'll be able to use their "spend actions" effects and then they're just "choose one" cards written differently. I could see an expansion built around Activation cards having a couple cards using this concept on terminal cards.
I hadn't seen the Activation cards thread, that is indeed a better version of this idea. But I don't agree that this idea is bad just because it won't work without villages in the kingdom. As long as the card still does something worth buying without being able to use the extra clause. Market Square, Tunnel, Conspirator, (any on-trash effects actually) all have a mechanic that in some Kingdoms can never be used.
And Moat, Lighthouse etc. have that too. There are also times when Feast is just a one-shot Duchy gainer, and Village is just a cantrip; in other words: *this* close to being completely useless cards (insert a gesture here that demonstrates how close they are to being completely useless cards). There are also times when Scout sucks. It's fine if a card is only useful in some games, because 9-card kingdoms aren't necessarily any less interesting than 10-card ones.
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I don't like the idea presented here because the extra effects can't be accessed unless there are splitters (Village types) in the game. LastFootnote's similar Activation cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10563.0) remain in play until they have been activated by spending an action (and turning them sideways to indicate that). Since they remain in play until used, you can always access the effect. Activation cards give a level of flexibility that the concept here does not since you get to keep the ability of Activation cards around until you use them.
I think the concept here can work, but the cards necessarily have to give additional actions so that you'll be able to use their "spend actions" effects and then they're just "choose one" cards written differently. I could see an expansion built around Activation cards having a couple cards using this concept on terminal cards.
I hadn't seen the Activation cards thread, that is indeed a better version of this idea. But I don't agree that this idea is bad just because it won't work without villages in the kingdom. As long as the card still does something worth buying without being able to use the extra clause. Market Square, Tunnel, Conspirator, (any on-trash effects actually) all have a mechanic that in some Kingdoms can never be used.
True enough, but there aren't very many simple ideas to build around anymore: Market Square, Tunnel (most reactions, really), and Conspirator are each very simple cards with cool extra effects (and on-trash effects and on-gain effects don't appreciably increase the complexity of a card because they only occur once and then can be ignored). Cards using this mechanism will be very cluttered and complicated unless their abilities without spending additional actions are very simple, and those simple abilities will make them terribly redundant with other cards sans splitters. For example, the card suggested in the original post is redundant with Moat and incredibly weak without its second ability. It certainly doesn't mean cards using this idea won't work or be interesting (whether they are simple and sometimes redundant or complex), but I am doubtful of the viability of this mechanism as a theme for an expansion since cards using this mechanism will likely be pretty dull without splitters.
If a full set of 13-25 Kingdom cards was not your intention, then I apologize for any apparent negativity I expressed in approaching the idea as though it were. This has always been a cool idea each time it has come up that I'd like to see explored further.
However, do consider the complexity added to the game as a whole as additional nomenclature must be added to the game in order to implement this concept. How many really compelling ideas can we construct around it and how many do we need to make defining "spending an action" within cards worthwhile?
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Curiously, I've mulled over this idea... I'd been calling it "actions as resources".
Parish
Action - $2
Choose one: +2 Actions; or spend your remaining actions and +1 Card per action spent.
It's cheap so you can buy a bunch of them, then play them all for actions and use the last one to draw cards.
Handyman
Action - $4
+1 Action
Spend your remaining actions. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $1 more than it per action spent.
Essentally, a Butcher that uses actions instead of coin tokens.
Fundraiser
Treasure - $5*
+$2
+1 Buy
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While this is in the Supply, it costs $2 less per unused action you have.
In the first two turns, it's a Silver-with-a-bonus that costs $3. In later turns, it's a nice target for Remodel... or a simple non-Action source of +Buy.
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Parrish is just a cantrip until you choose to draw a second card.
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I think one way to get this effect, except not exactly, is:
Some Card
Action
+2 Cards
You may trash up to two cards in your hand. If you don't, +1 Action.
The idea that you are trading actions for benefit is there, but you don't need the action to do it, which isn't the point. Since we have the "If you do" clause on cards, an "If you don't" clause isn't too hard to implement.
A card such as the example would at least provide some interest decisions in the mid-game, although in the beginning, you always trash, and in the end, it's just a village.
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Parrish is just a cantrip until you choose to draw a second card.
What do you mean? If you only have 1 Parish, then it's just a Necropolis (choosing the second option would cause you to draw 0 cards). When can you ever "choose to draw a second card"?
In fact, unless I'm just missing something, Parish will never really be better than Necropolis... Say you have a hand of 5 Parishes... you play the first 4 for +actions, so you now have 5 remaining actions. You play the last one (now you have 4 remaining actions) and you spend your remaining actions to draw 4 cards. And now you have 1 less card and no actions. Should have just bought nothing instead of Parish.
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Why has no one mentioned Diadem so far? It's the only card I can think of which has use for unused actions.
Without having read the details on the card ideas, I think a converter for unused actions is less interesting than the vice versa converters that exists, like Hamlet.
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In fact, unless I'm just missing something, Parish will never really be better than Necropolis... Say you have a hand of 5 Parishes... you play the first 4 for +actions, so you now have 5 remaining actions. You play the last one (now you have 4 remaining actions) and you spend your remaining actions to draw 4 cards. And now you have 1 less card and no actions. Should have just bought nothing instead of Parish.
...D'oh, yes, you are right. I should playtest this to get a better feeling about the mechanic.