Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Help! => Topic started by: love on July 26, 2014, 05:05:13 am

Title: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: love on July 26, 2014, 05:05:13 am
Hi,

I played a game on this board:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/46/Scout.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f5/Thief.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Thief) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/13/Graverobber.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Graverobber) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/0c/Laboratory.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Laboratory) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cc/Wharf.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wharf)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cd/Crossroads.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crossroads) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Watchtower) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/a/a7/Armory.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Armory) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9c/Feast.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Feast) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8c/Gardens.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gardens)
Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Watchtower, Armory, Feast, Gardens, Scout, Thief, Graverobber, Laboratory, Wharf
The log:

http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140726/log.51279b11e4b03ef870c8e38e.1406359611108.txt

My first two buys are both Silvers, because I wanted to get Wharfs and 2 Gold. Should I have taken a Feast in the opening?
On Turn 9 I buy a duchy having a hovel at the same time. Is this decision correct?
Should I have purchased another Wharf instead?
After my opponent buys double province on turn 11 I feel my position is worse. What improvements do you suggest?
Thank you a lot for your help!

Cheers,
love
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: SCSN on July 26, 2014, 05:22:18 am
Silver/Silver opening is correct, but you don't want to buy any Golds and certainly not two as long there are any Wharfs left. You also have no need for Watchtower when you have Wharf for draw, just get a Silver instead.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: Awaclus on July 26, 2014, 05:38:40 am
Unless you're committing more heavily to a Wharf/Crossroads engine, getting Crossroads early is a waste of time. Most likely it won't draw you any cards since it's a Shelters game, and it's not very likely for your Wharves to collide anyway, plus you don't have enough +actions to make sure you won't play Wharf and draw Crossroads dead. So most of the time, it's just a waste of a card slot in your hand and a wasted opportunity to buy something better. On turn 4, I'd buy a Silver instead, and on turn 5, I'd buy a second Wharf and a Silver. Watchtower is another mistake; you'll start with a 7-card-hand pretty often anyway, so you can only use it for the topdecking/trashing ability, which isn't worth it on this board. On turns 7 and 8, you should have gotten the Silvers since you had the coins and the buys to get it in addition to the other stuff you bought. Turn 9 should have been another Wharf, generally it's not a good idea to buy a Duchy or an Estate early to trash Hovel since you lose 1 bad card and gain 1 bad card so you're not improving your deck at all, but if you wait until you're buying a Victory card you would have had to buy anyway (such as Province), then it's basically as good as getting rid of 1 bad card. On turn 10, you should be buying Provinces already, and the Laboratory on turn 11 should have been a Duchy. You most certainly don't want to buy the Province on turn 14, since it ends the game in a loss for you, that should have been double Gardens instead.

If you draw your Feast with $3+, then you'll trash your Feast for the Wharf and buy a Silver, which is as good as buying a Silver in the first place and then buying the Wharf. If you draw it with less than $3, you now have a Wharf where you would have two Silvers with a Silver opening. I think the Silver is better early on.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: DG on July 26, 2014, 07:54:41 am
This is essentially wharves+treasure but there are  few minor decisions along the way. Feast? Players don't seem to trust the feast but a feast/silver opening often has minor advantage, maybe 1-2%, when put through a simulator. Crossroads? There will probably be a chance to buy one later with the +buy from the wharf. Gardens? Only late. Keep an eye on the deck size.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: silverspawn on July 26, 2014, 11:29:00 am
Quote from: DG on July 26, 2014, 07:54:41 am
This is essentially wharves+treasure but there are  few minor decisions along the way. Feast? Players don't seem to trust the feast but a feast/silver opening often has minor advantage, maybe 1-2%, when put through a simulator. Crossroads? There will probably be a chance to buy one later with the +buy from the wharf. Gardens? Only late. Keep an eye on the deck size.

it has 1,3% more to hit 5$ twice, but more importantly 3,8% less chance to not hit 5$ at all.

i was confusing silver/silver with silver baron. these are the correct stats, silver silver has

91,2% for at least one 5$
14,9% for two 5$'s

and silver/feast has

95% for at least one 5$
29% for two 5$'s

so it's over 14% more.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: love on July 26, 2014, 11:38:58 am
Thank you a lot for your instructive answers.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: Lekkit on July 28, 2014, 06:37:15 am
Quote from: silverspawn on July 26, 2014, 11:29:00 am
so it's over 14% more.

For getting that early Wharf, yes. I'm not sure about the end result, but I think that won't be as big difference. Because at the same time, you will most likely need that Silver later.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: liopoil on July 28, 2014, 07:00:27 am
what about feast/silver vs. say, smithy/silver? I can't imagine the gap is enough there, and smithy isn't even that great of an opener for hitting 5.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: silverspawn on July 28, 2014, 02:36:32 pm
Quote from: liopoil on July 28, 2014, 07:00:27 am
what about feast/silver vs. say, smithy/silver? I can't imagine the gap is enough there, and smithy isn't even that great of an opener for hitting 5.
the thing with opening smithy (or warehouse) is that it depends a lot on whether you draw it in turn 3 or 4. you'll almost certainly hit 5$ either way, but if you draw it on turn 4, your smithy and the 5$ will miss the reshuffle, where as if you draw it on turn 3, the 5$ and the smithy will in your new draw pile, and 4 bad cards will miss the reshuffle instead. so, you'll probably get 5$, but you might not draw that 5$ in turn 5 and 6
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: soulnet on July 28, 2014, 03:32:48 pm
Quote from: silverspawn on July 28, 2014, 02:36:32 pm
Quote from: liopoil on July 28, 2014, 07:00:27 am
what about feast/silver vs. say, smithy/silver? I can't imagine the gap is enough there, and smithy isn't even that great of an opener for hitting 5.
the thing with opening smithy (or warehouse) is that it depends a lot on whether you draw it in turn 3 or 4. you'll almost certainly hit 5$ either way, but if you draw it on turn 4, your smithy and the 5$ will miss the reshuffle, where as if you draw it on turn 3, the 5$ and the smithy will in your new draw pile, and 4 bad cards will miss the reshuffle instead. so, you'll probably get 5$, but you might not draw that 5$ in turn 5 and 6

Oracle/Silver ensures getting one $5+ unless you bottomdeck Oracle and a non-Estate. So does Moat/Silver.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: amalloy on July 28, 2014, 03:42:12 pm
Quote from: silverspawn on July 28, 2014, 02:36:32 pm
Quote from: liopoil on July 28, 2014, 07:00:27 am
what about feast/silver vs. say, smithy/silver? I can't imagine the gap is enough there, and smithy isn't even that great of an opener for hitting 5.
the thing with opening smithy (or warehouse) is that it depends a lot on whether you draw it in turn 3 or 4. you'll almost certainly hit 5$ either way, but if you draw it on turn 4, your smithy and the 5$ will miss the reshuffle, where as if you draw it on turn 3, the 5$ and the smithy will in your new draw pile, and 4 bad cards will miss the reshuffle instead. so, you'll probably get 5$, but you might not draw that 5$ in turn 5 and 6

If you draw your Smithy on turn 4, the shuffle you're triggering will only have six cards in it, one of which you draw immediately. The $5 you buy now will get shuffled in during cleanup of turn 4, and you have almost a 50% chance to draw it on turn 6. This is not great, but it's only about one turn slower than drawing your Smithy on turn 3.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: luser on July 28, 2014, 05:27:45 pm
Quote from: silverspawn on July 28, 2014, 02:36:32 pm
Quote from: liopoil on July 28, 2014, 07:00:27 am
what about feast/silver vs. say, smithy/silver? I can't imagine the gap is enough there, and smithy isn't even that great of an opener for hitting 5.
the thing with opening smithy (or warehouse) is that it depends a lot on whether you draw it in turn 3 or 4. you'll almost certainly hit 5$ either way, but if you draw it on turn 4, your smithy and the 5$ will miss the reshuffle, where as if you draw it on turn 3, the 5$ and the smithy will in your new draw pile, and 4 bad cards will miss the reshuffle instead. so, you'll probably get 5$, but you might not draw that 5$ in turn 5 and 6
Also for smithy a more important is chance of hitting 6.
Title: Re: A Wharf game. Why does my opponent get the initiative?
Post by: silverspawn on July 28, 2014, 06:22:31 pm
Quote
If you draw your Smithy on turn 4, the shuffle you're triggering will only have six cards in it, one of which you draw immediately. The $5 you buy now will get shuffled in during cleanup of turn 4, and you have almost a 50% chance to draw it on turn 6. This is not great, but it's only about one turn slower than drawing your Smithy on turn 3.
one turn is a lot though, and if you play smithy turn 3, you can draw it again on turn 5, possibly even turn 4. it's a big difference.

oracle/moat/any +2 draw is another story.