Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: pacovf on July 09, 2014, 12:50:10 pm
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Inspired by:
Upgrades spoils.
Into a Poor House?!?!?!
you can upgread spoils into a colony :)
Assuming there is a (pure) Victory card at each price point, what is the maximum printed cost of a card such that it is possible to gain it by trashing a spoils with Upgrade? Please provide a basic rundown of the turn!
After corrections from Sudgy and Mic Qsenoch (thanks!), the answer should be 50$
-> The replies contain spoilers, read at your own risk!
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How'd you get to $74? I can't think of any other cost reducers...
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Well, if the VP card is also an Action card it's doable.
30 Bridges + 10 Highways + Princess is 42 cost reduction.
Remember that Highway and Princess can't be KC'd.
10 Counterfeited Quarries adds 40. So that's 82 already.
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How'd you get to $74? I can't think of any other cost reducers...
If I wanted to be cheeky, I would say that in some sense there aren't any other cost reducers.
Well, if the VP card is also an Action card it's doable.
30 Bridges + 10 Highways + Princess is 42 cost reduction.
Remember that Highway and Princess can't be KC'd.
10 Counterfeited Quarries adds 40. So that's 82 already.
The VP card is not also an action card. And counterfeiting quarries actually doesn't work :P
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Well, if the VP card is also an Action card it's doable.
30 Bridges + 10 Highways + Princess is 42 cost reduction.
Remember that Highway and Princess can't be KC'd.
10 Counterfeited Quarries adds 40. So that's 82 already.
Quarry is while in play.
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You can presumably play your bridges with procession and use graverobbers to get the bridges out of the trash to be played again with king's court.
You can't use the Procession-Rogue/Graverobber trick here because Processioning a Bridge makes it cost $2.
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You can presumably play your bridges with procession and use graverobbers to get the bridges out of the trash to be played again with king's court.
You can only play one Bridge before Graverobber can't get them out of the trash anymore. So no Procession.
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You can presumably play your bridges with procession and use graverobbers to get the bridges out of the trash to be played again with king's court.
Oh yeah, that's obv the trick.
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Damn you guys get in so quickly I haven't time to delete my posts when I see the numbers are wrong!
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How'd you get to $74? I can't think of any other cost reducers...
If I wanted to be cheeky, I would say that in some sense there aren't any other cost reducers.
PRINCE IS A PART OF IT
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How'd you get to $74? I can't think of any other cost reducers...
If I wanted to be cheeky, I would say that in some sense there aren't any other cost reducers.
PRINCE IS A PART OF IT
Actually, I completely forgot that prince exists. I don't think it should affect the solution though. But nice thinking!
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This is a single Upgrade play, right? Directly from Spoils into the highest VP card. Not just a bunch of Upgrade plays?
Nobody has mentioned that you can get in 7 Band of Misfits plays (last 3 with KC-BoM) before it won't work as Bridge anymore.
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This is a single Upgrade play, right? Directly from Spoils into the highest VP card. Not just a bunch of Upgrade plays?
Nobody has mentioned that you can get in 7 Band of Misfits plays (last one as KC-BoM) before it won't work as Bridge anymore.
Eh, that was the basic idea, only I forgot about the part that it doesn't work as Bridge after a while; so pulling it off is quite easier (you just have to gain the last bridge after you play all your BoMs, everything else is straightforward), and the real result will be a lot lower: 50$. It's still 153VP if it follows the usual $-VP conversion...
You can also use the Procession-Rogue trick on BoM as bridge once, only of course now I realize it is quite pointless. Although another trick I hadn't used now becomes relevant. Nope it doesn't.
So yeah, unless someone finds some other trick, I hope you enjoyed this small puzzle :P
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you can also add 7 band of misfits. add 4, then it costs 1$ and is still more expansive than bridge, KC the last one.
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The answer to the question as asked is $1. A Spoils can never be upgraded into anything costing more than $1.
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You could simply 5 times throne a kc for playing 10 band of misfits, then gain a bridge and throne kc for 10 bridges, so correct answer is 72, 92 if its action card and we play black market with 10 quarries.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
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You could simply 5 times throne a kc for playing 10 band of misfits, then gain a bridge and throne kc for 10 bridges, so correct answer is 72, 92 if its action card and we play black market with 10 quarries.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
no that's false, as i said you can only play 7 band of misfits max. after the fifth, band of misfits costs 0$, and then you can't imitate bridge anymore, because the card you imitate has to cost less than band of misfits itself.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
that's false too, because once you procession a bridge, bridges will cost 2$, and you can only gain cards costing 3$-6$
I think the correct answer is
7 (from band of misfits)
+ 20 (from quarry)
+ 30 (from bridges)
+ 10 (from highways)
+2 (from princess)
+1 (from upgread)
equals $70
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You could simply 5 times throne a kc for playing 10 band of misfits, then gain a bridge and throne kc for 10 bridges, so correct answer is 72, 92 if its action card and we play black market with 10 quarries.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
no that's false, as i said you can only play 7 band of misfits max. after the fifth, band of misfits costs 0$, and then you can't imitate bridge anymore, because the card you imitate has to cost less than band of misfits itself.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
that's false too, because once you procession a bridge, bridges will cost 2$, and you can only gain cards costing 3$-6$
I think the correct answer is
7 (from band of misfits)
+ 20 (from quarry)
+ 30 (from bridges)
+ 10 (from highways)
+2 (from princess)
+1 (from upgread)
equals $70
Quarry wouldn't work because the gained card is a victory card, but otherwise I agree with your result.
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You could simply 5 times throne a kc for playing 10 band of misfits, then gain a bridge and throne kc for 10 bridges, so correct answer is 72, 92 if its action card and we play black market with 10 quarries.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
no that's false, as i said you can only play 7 band of misfits max. after the fifth, band of misfits costs 0$, and then you can't imitate bridge anymore, because the card you imitate has to cost less than band of misfits itself.
You could play kc even more times with processions playing kc-bridge, then gaining them back with graverobber.
that's false too, because once you procession a bridge, bridges will cost 2$, and you can only gain cards costing 3$-6$
I think the correct answer is
7 (from band of misfits)
+ 20 (from quarry)
+ 30 (from bridges)
+ 10 (from highways)
+2 (from princess)
+1 (from upgread)
equals $70
Quarry wouldn't work because the gained card is a victory card, but otherwise I agree with your result.
It would if you would gained a hypernobles.
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Could someone explain what is being asked? What does upgrade mean? Does it specifically mean via Upgrade? Does it need to be in one turn or in one play, or can several actions be strung together?
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Could someone explain what is being asked? What does upgrade mean? Does it specifically mean via Upgrade? Does it need to be in one turn or in one play, or can several actions be strung together?
i think it means using the card upgrade once
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Masquerade and Saboteur combined could get your 2 cost Bridges out of the trash for a while, assuming your opponent helps by gaining the Bridge for you, then passing it back.
e.g. 2 opponents, I Procession Bridge twice, Saboteur revealing 2 6-costs, they gain the Bridges back, and I Masquerade them slowly back to my hand. I can Procession the Bridge twice more, play a Highway, Saboteur revealing two Colonies, they gain the Bridges, and I pass them back to hand again.
So that's 4 Procession'd Bridges plus a Highway used for 9, with 10 Bridges, 9 Highways, and a Princess left. King's Court chain to 10 KC'd Bridges for 30, 9 Highways for 9, a Princess for 2, and the Upgrade itself for 1. 9+30+9+2+1=$51.
I haven't even used Band of Misfits... I'm sure there's a way though.
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Masquerade and Saboteur combined could get your 2 cost Bridges out of the trash for a while, assuming your opponent helps by gaining the Bridge for you, then passing it back.
e.g. 2 opponents, I Procession Bridge twice, Saboteur revealing 2 6-costs, they gain the Bridges back, and I Masquerade them slowly back to my hand. I can Procession the Bridge twice more, play a Highway, Saboteur revealing two Colonies, they gain the Bridges, and I pass them back to hand again.
So that's 4 Procession'd Bridges plus a Highway used for 9, with 10 Bridges, 9 Highways, and a Princess left. King's Court chain to 10 KC'd Bridges for 30, 9 Highways for 9, a Princess for 2, and the Upgrade itself for 1. 9+30+9+2+1=$51.
I haven't even used Band of Misfits... I'm sure there's a way though.
Saboteur doesn't gain from the trash.
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Could someone explain what is being asked? What does upgrade mean? Does it specifically mean via Upgrade? Does it need to be in one turn or in one play, or can several actions be strung together?
i think it means using the card upgrade once
I've edited the OP. Hopefully it is more clear now!
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Masquerade and Saboteur combined could get your 2 cost Bridges out of the trash for a while, assuming your opponent helps by gaining the Bridge for you, then passing it back.
e.g. 2 opponents, I Procession Bridge twice, Saboteur revealing 2 6-costs, they gain the Bridges back, and I Masquerade them slowly back to my hand. I can Procession the Bridge twice more, play a Highway, Saboteur revealing two Colonies, they gain the Bridges, and I pass them back to hand again.
So that's 4 Procession'd Bridges plus a Highway used for 9, with 10 Bridges, 9 Highways, and a Princess left. King's Court chain to 10 KC'd Bridges for 30, 9 Highways for 9, a Princess for 2, and the Upgrade itself for 1. 9+30+9+2+1=$51.
I haven't even used Band of Misfits... I'm sure there's a way though.
Saboteur doesn't gain from the trash.
Wow, I really messed that up... I don't know why I even thought that it did.
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Same puzzle, but this time it is a 2 player game where...
1) Your opponent has already bought up all 10 Band of Misfits
2) He has set 8 of them aside with Islands
3) He has one of the remaining Band of Misfits in his hand of 5 cards
4) The last Band of Misfits is somewhere in his deck or discard (which total n cards)
5) He is trying to keep you from getting those Band of Misfits.
Now what is the maximum pure Victory card cost that you can upgrade a Spoils into?
What is the maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this?
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Why didn't he just play the BoMs as islands?
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Why didn't he just play the BoMs as islands?
He was a bit too eager and PileDriver'ed the Islands before he knew it.
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It probably depends on what the other n cards in his deck are, in addition to how many there are. For example, if you're trying to trash the BoM with Rogues, it matters if the card he draws with it is Hunting Grounds and not Copper.
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It probably depends on what the other n cards in his deck are, in addition to how many there are. For example, if you're trying to trash the BoM with Rogues, it matters if the card he draws with it is Hunting Grounds and not Copper.
It does not matter much, it suffices to keep a kc-scheme-haven-militia-masquerade pin to get his entire deck. Once you get it you get rest of engine from native village that you set aside with haven.
Only way it could fail is if there is empty pile and opponent could empty coppers and curses.
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Hm, I can choose the rest of the deck at my choice? Then I use Ambassador on Ambassador twice, play multiple Governers, choosing +3 cards, until he has all cards in his hand, possess him, and take the BoM via the Ambassador he now has. I can only use them next turn though :(
Would it help to play an Outpost after the Possession? Not sure whats the order of the extra turns..
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Same puzzle, but this time it is a 2 player game where...
1) Your opponent has already bought up all 10 Band of Misfits
2) He has set 8 of them aside with Islands
3) He has one of the remaining Band of Misfits in his hand of 5 cards
4) The last Band of Misfits is somewhere in his deck or discard (which total n cards)
5) He is trying to keep you from getting those Band of Misfits.
Now what is the maximum pure Victory card cost that you can upgrade a Spoils into?
What is the maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this?
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I'm not sure if I understand. Assuming that you still have to do it in one turn, you could use pillage to force him to discard the BoM, then chain saboteurs (there's 10 saboteurs, and you get to KC 9 of them, and Pr-Rogue the last one for bit more) until you hit both his BoMs, gain them with rogue, then just do the same as with the previous puzzle, only now instead of playing 4 BoM and KC a 5th, now you procession a BoM, gain it back with rogue, Pr the re-gained BoM, and KC the last. So the answer would still be the same!
The maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this depends on the composition of the deck of your opponent...
Another variant on the original problem: assuming that all cards but spoils have their printed cost increased by X, what is the value of X for which the answer to the original problem is highest?
I haven't completely figured out the answer yet, but there should be a couple of new tricks in there.
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it's possible to play 20 cards other than KC's three times, using a KC chain starting with a TR. so you can reduce cost by 60$, by playing all processions three times on BoMs and Bridges. If you set X=61, you then have BoM at 6$ and Bridge at 5$ and can still get all 10 bridges out of the trash, and some BoM. you can then follow the original plan... but you don't have the KC anymore, so you can play cards onlyl twice. Play BoM 7 times, then bridges 20 times, highway 10 times, princess once. that adds up to
60+7+20+10+2+1 = $100
this can probably be improved though, by moving procession up a layer. I had KC on the first layer of the chain, Procession on the second, and the bridges/band of misfits on the third, but if you also procession some KC's, you can gain them from the trash and play some more cards three times.
there's also a problem with how many cards you can even gain from the trash though.
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it's possible to play 20 cards other than KC's three times, using a KC chain starting with a TR. so you can reduce cost by 60$, by playing all processions three times on BoMs and Bridges. If you set X=61, you then have BoM at 6$ and Bridge at 5$ and can still get all 10 bridges out of the trash, and some BoM. you can then follow the original plan... but you don't have the KC anymore, so you can play cards onlyl twice. Play BoM 7 times, then bridges 20 times, highway 10 times, princess once. that adds up to
60+7+20+10+2+1 = $100
this can probably be improved though, by moving procession up a layer. I had KC on the first layer of the chain, Procession on the second, and the bridges/band of misfits on the third, but if you also procession some KC's, you can gain them from the trash and play some more cards three times.
there's also a problem with how many cards you can even gain from the trash though.
Another problem with your solution is that you start by playing 3*10 processions... but there's only 20 cards to procession. And the fact that you need to have a bridge in the supply for BoM to be able to play its part.
And, as you said, that there is a limit to the number of cards you can get back from the trash (the way you phrased your solution you are fine, because you are getting 16 cards back, which you can do with rogue and graverobber... but since there's that problem with 30 processions but only 20 cards, you would have to gain 10 more cards from the trash, and that's where problems start).
And the minor fact that you cannot play BoM 7 times and bridge 20 times, because all the Processions and King's courts are used up, and you used one Throne Room to start your KC chain. A minor fact that will become major when you try to solve the previous problem.
There are a couple more, but I'll wait until you can solve these (if you want to try to solve them) before mentioning them.
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also if you have all bridges, all KC and all highways and your opponent has all BOMs and all Islands i guess the game has enden allready
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Same puzzle, but this time it is a 2 player game where...
1) Your opponent has already bought up all 10 Band of Misfits
2) He has set 8 of them aside with Islands
3) He has one of the remaining Band of Misfits in his hand of 5 cards
4) The last Band of Misfits is somewhere in his deck or discard (which total n cards)
5) He is trying to keep you from getting those Band of Misfits.
Now what is the maximum pure Victory card cost that you can upgrade a Spoils into?
What is the maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this?
´
I'm not sure if I understand. Assuming that you still have to do it in one turn, you could use pillage to force him to discard the BoM, then chain saboteurs (there's 10 saboteurs, and you get to KC 9 of them, and Pr-Rogue the last one for bit more) until you hit both his BoMs, gain them with rogue, then just do the same as with the previous puzzle, only now instead of playing 4 BoM and KC a 5th, now you procession a BoM, gain it back with rogue, Pr the re-gained BoM, and KC the last. So the answer would still be the same!
The maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this depends on the composition of the deck of your opponent...
Another variant on the original problem: assuming that all cards but spoils have their printed cost increased by X, what is the value of X for which the answer to the original problem is highest?
I haven't completely figured out the answer yet, but there should be a couple of new tricks in there.
Just 10 tr 10 processions, to play 10 bridges and 10 bom twice to get bom to 6, then play 10 rogues and graverobbers to get these back, ambassador a bridge, play 7 boms as bridge, gain bridge and now play 10-kc 10 bridge.
That with highways and princess gives 40+7+30+10+2+1 = 90 cost
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Same puzzle, but this time it is a 2 player game where...
1) Your opponent has already bought up all 10 Band of Misfits
2) He has set 8 of them aside with Islands
3) He has one of the remaining Band of Misfits in his hand of 5 cards
4) The last Band of Misfits is somewhere in his deck or discard (which total n cards)
5) He is trying to keep you from getting those Band of Misfits.
Now what is the maximum pure Victory card cost that you can upgrade a Spoils into?
What is the maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this?
´
I'm not sure if I understand. Assuming that you still have to do it in one turn, you could use pillage to force him to discard the BoM, then chain saboteurs (there's 10 saboteurs, and you get to KC 9 of them, and Pr-Rogue the last one for bit more) until you hit both his BoMs, gain them with rogue, then just do the same as with the previous puzzle, only now instead of playing 4 BoM and KC a 5th, now you procession a BoM, gain it back with rogue, Pr the re-gained BoM, and KC the last. So the answer would still be the same!
The maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this depends on the composition of the deck of your opponent...
Another variant on the original problem: assuming that all cards but spoils have their printed cost increased by X, what is the value of X for which the answer to the original problem is highest?
I haven't completely figured out the answer yet, but there should be a couple of new tricks in there.
Just 10 tr 10 processions, to play 10 bridges and 10 bom twice to get bom to 6, then play 10 rogues and graverobbers to get these back, ambassador a bridge, play 7 boms as bridge, gain bridge and now play 10-kc 10 bridge.
That with highways and princess gives 40+7+30+10+2+1 = 90 cost
Small improvement: You don't need all the BoM's(only 5 at most), and you only need 7 KC's to KC chain 10 bridges. So there's 3 KC's and a whole bunch of Rogue/Graverobbers to spare. One of the KC's you need to do 7 BoM, so there are only two left to use.
When you play out 10 Bridge/10 Graverobber, instead have Bridge at 6. Then, use 2 Rogue/Graverobbers or a KC'd Rogue/Graverobber to fish out Procession/Bridge from the trash, each costing 6. Play Procession/Bridge, fish the Bridge costing 4 out with a BoM, and then play 7 KC 10 Bridge.
So that's 2 more from an extra Procession/Bridge, making $92.
Also, when you Ambassador the Bridge, your opponent gets one. So you have to return 2, then find some way to trash out your opponent's Bridge and gain it before 7 BoM so it still costs $4 to $6, and get the Bridge in the supply back back with an Ironworks/Workshop/Armory(Bridge costing less than $4 after 7 BoM).
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Same puzzle, but this time it is a 2 player game where...
1) Your opponent has already bought up all 10 Band of Misfits
2) He has set 8 of them aside with Islands
3) He has one of the remaining Band of Misfits in his hand of 5 cards
4) The last Band of Misfits is somewhere in his deck or discard (which total n cards)
5) He is trying to keep you from getting those Band of Misfits.
Now what is the maximum pure Victory card cost that you can upgrade a Spoils into?
What is the maximum value of n for which you can reliably do this?
You're a horrible person.