Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: ehunt on March 19, 2014, 06:19:52 pm
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Post a log that you won on 2 or fewer points, with Dame Josephine in your deck.
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AI - 13 VP with Josephine
yuga ta - 12 VP
log (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130814/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1376476507757.txt)
AI - 11 VP with Josephine
Stef - 12 VP
log (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130623/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1371989701887.txt)
Damn it, Stef!
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Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?
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Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?
Not sure... It was a while ago. That's the only one out if all my pro games, BTW. So yeah, apparently Josephine is a pretty lousy knight.
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I found one, can't remember the game anymore.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130629/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1372526561605.txt
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I found a couple where I lost, but this one (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130730/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1375231608252.txt) I won. Really weird game.
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Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?
Not sure... It was a while ago. That's the only one out if all my pro games, BTW. So yeah, apparently Josephine is a pretty lousy knight.
It's worth pointing out that not all games where Josephine decides the outcome are games that are within 2 points. What I mean by that is, maybe your opponent decides not to break PPR or whatever because of the 2 point difference, and that ends up causing you to win, even though the final score difference is much larger.
Also, how much of a difference do most cards make? Like, if you could go back into a game and switch Josephine's bonus to be +$2 rather than 2 VP, how many more games would be decided by that that weren't decided by the 2 VP? I don't think that number would be super high.
I agree Josephine is a bad knight (possibly the worst), but I don't think you would know that just based on how many games satisfy ehunt's challenge.
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Only happened to me once and it was IRL. Boy was my opponent annoyed by that...because he ended it.
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Out of the 162 Knights games (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/logsearch?p1name=2.71828.....&p1score=any&p2name=&startdate=08%2F05%2F2012&enddate=03%2F19%2F2014&supply=knights&nonsupply=&rating=pro%2B&pcount=2&colony=any&bot=false&shelters=any&guest=false&minturns=&maxturns=&quit=false&resign=any&limit=200&submitted=true&offset=0) that I skimmed over, here are my findings:
A game that I won on turns (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130623/log.506cdda6a2e6d48af5fd14bf.1372017768992.txt) with Dame Josephine in my deck.
One where I lost by a single point (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130807/log.515f2508e4b09ee2d2aa5c19.1375895515300.txt) to Lespeutere, and he had Dame Josephine.
And then one where I lose on turns (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130826/log.50c4ea35e4b0a380e35fb826.1377556712007.txt) when my opponent had the Dame.
And finally one where I win by one point (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140103/log.515f2508e4b09ee2d2aa5c19.1388766616487.txt) with the Dame.
So about 2% of all the games that I have played with knights have been decided by Dame Josephine, and I have only managed to win half of those games.
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Out of all of the pro games with Knights that I've played that goko has managed to record, I managed to find two where Dame Josephine was the deciding factor.
One (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20131109/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1384060562595.txt)
Two (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20131224/log.51102f16e4b0fb53a9f92227.1387916223871.txt)
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It's worth pointing out that not all games where Josephine decides the outcome are games that are within 2 points. What I mean by that is, maybe your opponent decides not to break PPR or whatever because of the 2 point difference, and that ends up causing you to win, even though the final score difference is much larger.
You're definitely right that those games should also be credited to Josephine, but I don't think they're several times as common as the regular 1-2 VP wins. And several times more is what you'd need to make the stats people are reporting look respectable for Josephine.
After all, we're taking about adding games where:
- Your opponent chooses not to break PPR (or leave a 3rd pile near-empty, etc) because you're up by 1-2 VP,
- and you eventually end up winning by more than 1-2 VP,
- and you would have ended up losing if you had been 2 VP poorer when your opponent made his PPR decision.
Additionally, we should deduct from Josephine's tally any games where you would have won anyway, but not on that turn (e.g. if you could have bought a Duchy instead of 3-piling with a 1 VP lead).
Also, how much of a difference do most cards make? Like, if you could go back into a game and switch Josephine's bonus to be +$2 rather than 2 VP, how many more games would be decided by that that weren't decided by the 2 VP? I don't think that number would be super high.
This is a clearer issue. The +$2 bonus you propose is a huge deal, and Dame Sylvia is correspondingly far stronger than Dame Josephine.
Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead. That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP. If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.
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Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead. That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP. If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.
I bet this has actually happened at least once: "I'll just take a silver, and --" "I reveal Trader. Now you have to gain a Duchy instead."
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I still haven't bought a knight...
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Clarification: I am not trying to argue about whether Dame Josephine is a bad knight or a good one. I just wanted to see some interesting logs. (I did suspect they would be rare, but I don't know enough about postisoera dominion strategy to be confident. )
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Out of the 162 Knights games (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/logsearch?p1name=2.71828.....&p1score=any&p2name=&startdate=08%2F05%2F2012&enddate=03%2F19%2F2014&supply=knights&nonsupply=&rating=pro%2B&pcount=2&colony=any&bot=false&shelters=any&guest=false&minturns=&maxturns=&quit=false&resign=any&limit=200&submitted=true&offset=0) that I skimmed over, here are my findings:
A game that I won on turns (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130623/log.506cdda6a2e6d48af5fd14bf.1372017768992.txt) with Dame Josephine in my deck.
One where I lost by a single point (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130807/log.515f2508e4b09ee2d2aa5c19.1375895515300.txt) to Lespeutere, and he had Dame Josephine.
And then one where I lose on turns (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20130826/log.50c4ea35e4b0a380e35fb826.1377556712007.txt) when my opponent had the Dame.
And finally one where I win by one point (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140103/log.515f2508e4b09ee2d2aa5c19.1388766616487.txt) with the Dame.
So about 2% of all the games that I have played with knights have been decided by Dame Josephine, and I have only managed to win half of those games.
2% is too low. I assume you didn't empty the Knights pile in each of those 162 games. Just because Knights are available doesn't mean Dame Josephine is going to be.
Also -- 4 points is potentially the margin you want if both players buy Knights. 2 points if it's in my deck and survives, 2 points to you if it's in yours and survives.
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Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead. That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP. If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.
It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.
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Actualy this game wins by one point with me having dame josephine and 5 duchys and two estates vs his 3 provinces.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140317/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1395065423389.txt (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140317/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1395065423389.txt)
this is even more hillarious. my opponent miscounts because of Dame J in my deck and ends the game with me 1 point ahead.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140206/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1391687093927.txt
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Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead. That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP. If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.
It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.
and 1/10 of all Knight games with Trade Route in it give Trade Route more potential because of dame Josephine
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It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.
and 1/10 of all Knight games with Trade Route in it give Trade Route more potential because of dame Josephine
Actually, according to the Wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Knights#Official_FAQ) the official FAQ states,
Dame Josephine is also a Victory card, worth 2 VP at the end of the game. The Knight pile is not a Victory pile though, and does not get a counter for Trade Route (from Prosperity) even if Dame Josephine starts on top.
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ok nevermind then i played a game in real where i did put the token on her nevertheless. ;)
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ok nevermind then i played a game in real where i did put the token on her nevertheless. ;)
Cheater! Vote: RTT
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Guys, you're all missing the best bonus from Dame Josephine - she combos with scout!!
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Guys, you're all missing the best bonus from Dame Josephine - she combos with scout!!
Indeed. You can Masq her to an opponent and wait for her to clear the Scouts out of your deck.
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I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
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I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
I've posted a link to a log where at one point the eventual winner had no cards (due to KC/Masq). The link is dead now though. You can read the story at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=76.0.
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I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
I've posted a link to a log where at one point the eventual winner had no cards (due to KC/Masq). The link is dead now though. You can read the story at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=76.0.
Pretty cool. Of course this counts. I was thinking more along the lines of KC-Monument-Death Cart and some other trasher to completely empty your deck and 3 piles in one turn.
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IIRC I had an isotropic game where got to a deck of KC-KC-Margrave-Masq, trashed my opponents deck, and proceeded to mess up horribly in building back up and lost.