Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: yuma on January 21, 2014, 12:23:05 pm
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RMM14: Arrested Development Mafia
Mods: yuma PPS
This is a Role Madness Game designed specifically for 9 players.
Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Walrus - Steve Holt!, the Good, Dumb Jock lynched Day3 and George Michael Bluth, the Partial Deathproof Remover
3. faust
4. jotheonah - Carl Weathers, the Day Rolestealing Vigilante Lynched Day2 and Tobias Fumke, the Analrapist killed Night2
5. ashersky - Lucille Austero, the Vertigo Redirector Lynched Day1 and Lucille Bluth, the Aid-Required Vigilante Killed Night1
6. EFHW
7. xeiron
8. Archetype
9. Eevee - Annyong, the Temporary Vanillaizer Killed Day2 and Buster Bluth, the Paranoid Hook Owning Babysitter Killed Night2
Spectators Tagged: TwistedArcher, Jimmmmm, liopoil, Teproc, 2.7
f.ds Mafia Ruleset
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for this game. If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.
Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable, check with the mod if you need clarifications.
2. Personal communication outside of the forum postings is NOT ALLOWED unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
3. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 24 hours from Night start. If we do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used. Generally, one team member may submit the Night Actions for all team members. See rule 7 under miscellaneous below if you anticipate being VLA while having a PR.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage), unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase, unless your Action is compulsory. If you have an action that is compulsive you action will be determined randomly.
6. As a general rule you should aim for more than one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving. Please treat this game as a commitment. If you can't commit to this game because of outside activities/responsibilities, other forum games or other contributing factors please /out before the start of the game.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics, except for twilight. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent, but will be invited to the Spectator Quicktopic.
8. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
9. This game will have 8 day deadlines and 2 days nights.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game. In the event of an incorrect vote count the mod has the right to revert the game state back to the state before the erroneous vote count. This means that any votes cast in the meantime will become void. Any time that was lost during this even will be added back onto for deadlines. Please note that if a mistake is not caught before a flip, the erroneous vote count will become binding.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 24 hours of no activity (VLA posts in the official VLA thread negate automatic prods). A prodded player has 24 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement or being mod killed, if the game has progressed too far to sub in a new player, without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill, or beyond.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging. If you have a Power Role and go on VLA for longer than 2 days (the time period of a Night) please submit a temporary Night Action before leaving on VLA. This will be a placeholder action in the event that you will be absent during the night. Failure to submit an action before leaving will result in a "no action" that night.
8. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread. A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique. (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players will only be replaced through Night2. Any players that /out after that point will be mod-killed. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.
TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.
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Game Setup
This is a Role Madness Game designed specifically for 9 players. In designing this game balance has been sought, but is not guaranteed. There are roles that have been created, adapted and altered from their original purpose. No roles are considered exclusively bastard. There will be no cults, jesters and only one mafia team (for clarification a SK is not considered to be a mafia team). This game will hopefully be wacky, fun and balanced. But as with many RMM games it has the potential to be very swingy depending on how players use their night actions and how players vote during the day.
Flavor is not indicative of alignment in any form. Roles were instead created around the flavor, so flavor is very important for the roles, but again, not specifically for the alignment of characters. There is one facet of the game that some may consider to be bastard, however the mod ensures you that it has been accounted for and has been designed in such a way to make it not bastard. This game will feature of myriad of roles, some of these roles will be subject to or create misinformation. However there will be no mod lying.
This game will have 8 day long days and 2 day long nights, with the deadline for night actions being 1 day. This game will not always appear to be what it seems and due to game mechanics may be longer than some of you are expecting a 9-player game to be.
No copying of any private mod text, fabricated or real is allowed in any form, including in f.ds quotes in quotation marks or without quotation marks. Each player will receive a youtube video in conjunction to their role for fun. This may not be shared in any shape or form, nor may it be "paraphrased" if you think you can somehow paraphrase a video clip. Please paraphrase everything except for 1. role names, 2. flavor names, 3. alignment. PM the mod if you are unsure about something and want to see if it is acceptable to post. This will be strictly enforced and there will be little tolerance of any such activity. As such I will repeat this warning a few times to make sure that everyone playing is fully aware of the rule.
Win conditions are stated here:
Town: Your win condition is to eliminate all threats to the Bluth Family.
Non-Town: Your win condition is to eliminate all other players and only have your faction be alive at the end of the game or reach a game state where nothing can prevent it.
I will also note that while not specifically mentioned pre-game, the mafia will be aware of the alignment faction name that town will have.
Please PM the mod with question regarding your role. I will be hopefully publishing a Night Action resolution chart here in the next few days. As some of these roles in the game have been created and modified some roles may not fit into the slot which you or others may expect, but there will be a clear established order from the outset for roles and their interactions with each other.
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The following players expressed interest in the game beforehand and may get priority seating depending on a myriad of factors:
Eevee, archetype, Dsell, Voltaire, Robz, ashersky
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Confirming still /in if there's space. (I think it was only ash who was doing the "sign up by PM" thing?)
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Confirming still /in if there's space. (I think it was only ash who was doing the "sign up by PM" thing?)
To clarify, this will be done via conventional /inning into the thread. The above players were just players who mentioned when I announced that this would be running (in other threads) that they would be greatly interested in playing this.
No one has /inned via PM, nor do I expect people to /in in that format.
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/in if space
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A nice quick RMM game sounds good. I don't have any idea about the flavor, though.
/in
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No copying of any mod text, fabricated or real is allowed in any form
I hope this does not mean we're not allowed to quote your posts in this thread. If so, I fear I have just violated the rules and have to be modkilled pre-game.
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Hmm. I really feel like I'm quickly getting bogged down in Forum stuff, and I can barely keep up in the games I AM in...
Ah, screw it. Can't pass it up. /in
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Tag
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Auto /in for yumagames.
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/in
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/tag
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No copying of any mod text, fabricated or real is allowed in any form
I hope this does not mean we're not allowed to quote your posts in this thread. If so, I fear I have just violated the rules and have to be modkilled pre-game.
that should say "private mod text"
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Tag
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As awesome as this sounds, I cannot commit to mafia right now. I appreciate the consideration, though, and I'll eagerly follow along if I'm able!
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Someone should make Diet Mafia where the days are 5 days long and the nights are 2 days!
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/tag
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/in! AM I TOO LATE?
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/in
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So..... that filled up extraordinarily quick... Now I feel a lot of pressure for this to be awesome...
Everyone that had a desire to play beforehand has contacted me or /inned. So I guess at this point I'll be accepting potential subs--but I hope we don't have any secretly...
PMs will be going out shortly if everyone is ok with starting in the next little bit. I would like to get Day1 started before Diffusion of Power starts Day2.
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You know what, I really should /out. I'm sorry, I just do not have the time.
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wow. gee thanks for the vote of confidence guys :P
if you wanted to be in this, but its full, you can still be in wheel of time mafia!
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PMs will be going out shortly if everyone is ok with starting in the next little bit. I would like to get Day1 started before Diffusion of Power starts Day2.
Oh hmm that seems strange. I was hoping this would start a touch later so that there weren't two games in the early stages at once. I'll stay /in either way.
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Bolded Purple Text.... 8)
and an edited post...
I actually had to wait so I could get the satisfaction of having the forum report the post edited.
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You know what, I really should /out. I'm sorry, I just do not have the time.
No problem! Sorry you have to miss it!
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PMs will be going out shortly if everyone is ok with starting in the next little bit. I would like to get Day1 started before Diffusion of Power starts Day2.
Oh hmm that seems strange. I was hoping this would start a touch later so that there weren't two games in the early stages at once. I'll stay /in either way.
Well the idea is to have it start when Dynasty is at night. What I don't want is both games starting days at the same time.
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Bolded Purple Text.... 8)
you are welcome to change colors if you want... that was just the color that my last co-mod used (TA) and I copied and pasted that old format to this one... I personally think purple suits you due to the alliteration of purple, ping and pong
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PMs will be going out shortly if everyone is ok with starting in the next little bit. I would like to get Day1 started before Diffusion of Power starts Day2.
Oh hmm that seems strange. I was hoping this would start a touch later so that there weren't two games in the early stages at once. I'll stay /in either way.
Game's not full anyway, so no worries yet.
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Bolded Purple Text.... 8)
you are welcome to change colors if you want... that was just the color that my last co-mod used (TA) and I copied and pasted that old format to this one... I personally think purple suits you due to the alliteration of purple, ping and pong
It's Voltgloss's color.
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purple is the nicest color. I don't think Voltgloss intended to have a monopoly on purple. It's my color, too.
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purple is the nicest color. I don't think Voltgloss intended to have a monopoly on purple. It's my color, too.
No monopoly, no, but purple is Voltgloss the way maroon is me or green is Robz.
I still think of bolded blue as the standard mod color.
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Added a few points to the setup since it was originally created:
Each player will receive a youtube video in conjunction to their role for fun. This may not be shared in any shape or form, nor may it be "paraphrased" if you think you can somehow paraphrase a video clip.
This game will not always appear to be what it seems and due to game mechanics may be longer than some of you are expecting a 9-player mafia game to be.
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I chose purple in honor of Voltgloss.
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wow. gee thanks for the vote of confidence guys :P
if you wanted to be in this, but its full, you can still be in wheel of time mafia!
mail-mi I think you need more description in the OP. It's hard to tell what the game will be like from what is there.
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One more taker out there?
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/sendmemypmcat
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One more taker out there?
No, this is full. You can always tell a Milford man.
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reverse vla announcement, I will be active in this game. don't lynch me for it!
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One more taker out there?
No, this is full. You can always tell a Milford man.
+1
and /tag.
I can't play, but I really love the flavor. Lurkers in this game should definitely be forced to reference their mafia education at Milford after a long break in action.
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/in
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Awesome. PMs will go out shortly and then Night0 will officially begin with Day1 starting about 1 day later, pending confirmations of PM receipt.
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PMs are out. Please confirm receiving them with a PM. Please feel free to ask questions and I will remind everyone to look over the rules and the setup and pay particular attention to the segments about quoting moderator supplied information.
Any spectators tagged... I will be sending out speccy QTs at day start. If you do not want one, let me know otherwise you will get one. If anyone else wants one let me know as well.
This thread is locked!
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Hi: I am Ron Howard, the creative director of Arrested Development Mafia. You may know me from my previous work as the precocious Opie or in my work directing recent mafia games such as Mafia and the Di Vinci Code, How the Mafia Stole Christmas or Werewolf Frost vs Mafia Nixon.
Now the story of a wealthy family who was infiltrated by the mafia and the chosen majority who had no choice but to keep them all together.
Michael woke up with a headache. Actually the whole Bluth family woke up with a headache. Was it the wine? Was it the forget-me-nots? Was it the huge bulging bruise raising from all of their foreheads?
Either way. The family woke up in the Balboa Apartments groggy, lightheaded and millions of dollars poorer. Someone had stolen not only their identities, but their money and their access to the Bluth family fortune and company.
"We've made a huge mistake" said G.O.B.
"The only mistake I ever made was trusting this family again," said Michael. "Someone in this family, in this room, gave an outsider access to everything... to this apartment, to the company to our fortu.... Buster can you do that somewhere else buddy?"
Buster looked up from tuba which had started bellowing out loud noises. "Mother says I should use music to relax my nerves."
"His nerves are all wound up Michael," said Lucille. "I can't have him in the house anymore. Take him with you while you try and figure out where our money went and who is responsible. Don't be afraid to use his hook on whoever it was. We aren't afraid to get his claw dirty."
Day1 starts Now!
Vote Count 1.0
Not Voting (9): Voltaire, faust, ashersky, jotheonah, Walrus, Eevee, xeiron, EFHW, Archetype.
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
This Thread is Unlocked
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Aha!
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Here we go!
Ash, do you have any plans, big or small?
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So, right off the bat, I'm going to disappoint the mod.
Sorry, yuma.
I would call your attention to this:
There is one facet of the game that some may consider to be bastard, however the mod ensures you that it has been accounted for and has been designed in such a way to make it not bastard. This game will feature of myriad of roles, some of these roles will be subject to or create misinformation. However there will be no mod lying.
So, the bolded part.
I have one of those roles. As such, I pledge NOT to use my role at all (unless town collectively comes up with a reason, but I've thought about it since I received my PM, and I haven't yet.)
My role creates unwanted confusion at night. It's made this way on purpose to add to the craziness of the game, and the night-time fun of the mods. Unfortunately, it's anti-town to use it, as it'll just confuse the real PRs.
Basically, my role is non-compulsory and is unable to stop kills or clear players. Therefore, I won't be using it.
I strongly urge all other town players with similar roles to make the same pledge, either publically or privately.
Again, sorry yuma, for sapping the fun from the role. But I have to do what I think is best for town to win.
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Here we go!
Ash, do you have any plans, big or small?
Does that count?
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As for a separate plan, I'd consider a mass claim. 9 players, and I think most of us will have an idea about others based on our roles.
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Here we go!
Ash, do you have any plans, big or small?
Does that count?
That does! Light town read on ashersky.
I would urge you to consider it again every night though. If you are something super strong and claimed VT to throw scum off, tip of the old
cap good sir, if not, I think it's important to plant the idea of that possibility to scum's minds. If you somehow didn't realize that's what you did, don't admit it obviously.
in fact I probably think you should have just not used the
role without claiming, but what's done is done.
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the problem with discussing a mass claim is that if you discuss it too much, you might as well go through with it because the damage is already done.
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if the day sways that way, I think some town roles should seriously consider their words and probably omit some information or even straight up lie.
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in fact I probably think you should have just not used the
role without claiming, but what's done is done.
I thought about it. But I think my claim actually gets the game started on the right foot (real discussion vs. RVS) and is pertinent to the game.
Plus, all the WIFOM in the world for scum now.
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if the day sways that way, I think some town roles should seriously consider their words and probably omit some information or even straight up lie.
I mean, I think people should say "yes mass claim" or "no mass claim" and be done with it.
If we DO mass claim, then we figure things out.
I'm torn on town lying, because man that back fires so badly.
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So does the cop claiming day 1..
I think I'd like to see what others think about the massclaim issue before
commenting (or not commenting) on it myself.
Should we consider having you fullclaim? If you don't plan on using the role anyways, seems it
wouldn't hurt much but your role might have surprisingly effective interactions with other roles we could find out and possibly use if you claimed.
I actually don't think we should discuss you claiming, you are plenty capable of making that decision yourself and if you were faking having a useless role, I wouldn't want to put you on the spot where you'd be forced to invent a fake claim.
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No to mass claim. But not a crazy strong opinion.
vote: ashersky btw. Because of the nature of the claim.
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No to mass claim. But not a crazy strong opinion.
vote: ashersky btw. Because of the nature of the claim.
You mean how it is exactly like my claim in your RMM game?
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No, not at all, actually.
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So does the cop claiming day 1..
I think I'd like to see what others think about the massclaim issue before
commenting (or not commenting) on it myself.
Should we consider having you fullclaim? If you don't plan on using the role anyways, seems it
wouldn't hurt much but your role might have surprisingly effective interactions with other roles we could find out and possibly use if you claimed.
I actually don't think we should discuss you claiming, you are plenty capable of making that decision yourself and if you were faking having a useless role, I wouldn't want to put you on the spot where you'd be forced to invent a fake claim.
I'm sure if I needed a fake role, I could invent one just fine.
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No, not at all, actually.
Oh. Then vote: voltaire until you explain. This is OMGUS and a policy vote for voting without a well-explained reason.
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I mean, your claim is super convenient for say a serial killer (or a mafia member bit wanting to get shot by one).
I still don't view it as scummy, because it also makes you a great settling lynch if we can't find anything better in our 8 days.
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your point about wanting to kickstart the game with real discussion also really hits home with me, I agree with it, appreciate it and associate it with town ashersky.
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No, not at all, actually.
Oh. Then vote: voltaire until you explain. This is OMGUS and a policy vote for voting without a well-explained reason.
All in due time.
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I mean, your claim is super convenient for say a serial killer (or a mafia member bit wanting to get shot by one).
I still don't view it as scummy, because it also makes you a great settling lynch if we can't find anything better in our 8 days.
This is definitely a fake (or real) claim I make as scum. I point to myself in the last RMM game, Dr. Who, where I was an enabler and claimed right off the bat. I was scum there, and had a good reason to claim.
I think you'd have a harder time figuring out a compelling scum narrative for a scum-held misdirection role to claim right off the bat. A straight up fake claim? Sure, I guess. As an SK maybe, to try to survive as long as possible.
I see it this way -- 9-player games are hard to both 1) make last and 2) make balanced, when there are a lot of roles. Either the two scum are too strong (and you can't really have more than 2 scum) or the three scum are too weak (because 6 v 3 is just crazy, so you can't really have more than 2 scum). So maybe yuma includes an SK, so it's 2 + 1 scum vs. 6 town. But probably it's 2 v 7.
If town has strong roles, and I mean simple strong like cop/doc, with such a small pool to choose from, the likelihood of catching scum goes up, and that's just tough. How to diffuse that? Misdirection. So, I expect scum has a bus driver or something similar, possibly ninja. SK would need to be BP, maybe investigation-proof.
But RMM is about roles, so town needs roles. If there are cop/tracker/watcher type roles, you mess with them by including misdirection roles (like mine). I'm negating that by deciding NOT to use my power, and therefore I am strengthening the more important town PRs.
I feel a lot like I did in Dynasty Warriors I, where I claimed 1-shot doc right off the bat to help town POE. I have a weak role that is actually negative utility here, so I'm canceling myself out. I get the added benefit of possibly freaking out scum, because what if I have no role at all, or what if I do have a strong role. So they need to decide what to do about me.
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Also, huge FOS for:
faust, jotheonah, Walrus, xeiron, EFHW, Archetype
The game has been going for an hour, and still no posts. Terrible.
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Vote: ashersky. I think he's bluffing.
No to massclaim, but yes to ash claim.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
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Vote Count 1.1
ashersky (2): Voltaire, Archetype
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Archetype (1: Eevee
Not Voting (5): faust, jotheonah, Walrus, xeiron, EFHW
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
Why? If he's a negative utility, why wouldn't we want to lynch him?
No; If I had a negative utility, I would keep it hidden and not use it. I see no reason why he said that he's a negative utility.
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Hi everyone.
Always with the claiming, ashersky! Eevee has a point that you could have just not used it and not said anything, but I guess that's not your way of doing things.
I don't like Eevee's other idea, about you full-claiming so we can see how our own roles interact. I very much do not like that idea. Maybe later, but definitely not now.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
Why? If he's a negative utility, why wouldn't we want to lynch him?
No; If I had a negative utility, I would keep it hidden and not use it. I see no reason why he said that he's a negative utility.
We wouldn't want to lynch him if he's town. Town read on Archetype, btw, even though this isn't thought through.
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So far:
Town reads on Eevee and Arch
Scum read on Voltaire
Null read on EFHW
Indigestion reads on the rest of the group, as they haven't posted.
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Not sure what to make of this at all. My gut reaction is to not believe ashersky, but I'm not all about gut reactions. Nonetheless, my conclusion about early ash semi-claims is not to act on them one way or another. No town cred, etc. Whatever scum!ash might have hoped to gain from the claim, we should be careful not to offer. If ash does anything to earn town cred down the line, maybe we give some more weight to the claim.
Not a fan of the day 1 mass claim, as per usual.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
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So, ashersky starts the Day by (basically) claiming VT?
Vote: ashersky
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I don't think we should mass claim.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
No, I meant Archetype. Scum only want to get on that wagon early if Archetype is town. It sounds like you know he is town and the possibility of his being scum didn't really occur to you.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
No, I meant Archetype. Scum only want to get on that wagon early if Archetype is town. It sounds like you know he is town and the possibility of his being scum didn't really occur to you.
I don't follow! I'm very much considering the possibility archetype might be scum, I'm even voting for him?
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
No, I meant Archetype. Scum only want to get on that wagon early if Archetype is town. It sounds like you know he is town and the possibility of his being scum didn't really occur to you.
I don't follow! I'm very much considering the possibility archetype might be scum, I'm even voting for him?
Oh, "this" was referring to the inevitable ashersky-wagon, not the possible archetype-wagon.
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I think we need to set a soft deadline, and we need to get this game moving fast. 8 day deadlines is super-quick. Soft deadline this Friday @ 4 PM forum time? That's a time where people have seemed reasonably active in the past.
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So, ashersky starts the Day by (basically) claiming VT?
Vote: ashersky
That it was basically the same as claiming VT didn't even occur to me.
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I think we need to set a soft deadline, and we need to get this game moving fast. 8 day deadlines is super-quick. Soft deadline this Friday @ 4 PM forum time? That's a time where people have seemed reasonably active in the past.
If we want to lynch someone by friday, we really have to blitz through D1.
It works for me.
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So, ashersky starts the Day by (basically) claiming VT?
Vote: ashersky
That it was basically the same as claiming VT didn't even occur to me.
I said it first!
I think we need to set a soft deadline, and we need to get this game moving fast. 8 day deadlines is super-quick. Soft deadline this Friday @ 4 PM forum time? That's a time where people have seemed reasonably active in the past.
If we want to lynch someone by friday, we really have to blitz through D1.
It works for me.
Works for me as well, I still have a fever and I'm stuck home anyways. I find blitzing is very good for town, especially day 1.
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Awesome.
Less sure about ash. I was super sure at first.
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So, right off the bat, I'm going to disappoint the mod.
Sorry, yuma.
I would call your attention to this:
There is one facet of the game that some may consider to be bastard, however the mod ensures you that it has been accounted for and has been designed in such a way to make it not bastard. This game will feature of myriad of roles, some of these roles will be subject to or create misinformation. However there will be no mod lying.
So, the bolded part.
I have one of those roles. As such, I pledge NOT to use my role at all (unless town collectively comes up with a reason, but I've thought about it since I received my PM, and I haven't yet.)
My role creates unwanted confusion at night. It's made this way on purpose to add to the craziness of the game, and the night-time fun of the mods. Unfortunately, it's anti-town to use it, as it'll just confuse the real PRs.
Basically, my role is non-compulsory and is unable to stop kills or clear players. Therefore, I won't be using it.
I strongly urge all other town players with similar roles to make the same pledge, either publically or privately.
Again, sorry yuma, for sapping the fun from the role. But I have to do what I think is best for town to win.
I am not sure what to think of Asherskys claim.
Anti-town roles are usually not optional, because then they are not used, effectively making the player a vanilla townie.
If they are optional, there usually are situations where they can be useful.
Because of this this, I am a little skeptical of whether Ashersky actually have the role he claimed.
The big question here is why would !town Ashersky choose to claim this early. Or !scum Ash.
I fail to see why his claim helps town.
But I do not see ow it could help him as scum either. If he is scum, he might get into trouble later during a massclaim if he do not (fake)claim a role that fits with this. And I do not think scum would want to limit their fakeclaiming possibilities this early. I mean, if he is watched or tracked or something now he is pretty dead, as he has already claimed to have a role he is not going to use.
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But I do not see ow it could help him as scum either. If he is scum, he might get into trouble later during a massclaim if he do not (fake)claim a role that fits with this. And I do not think scum would want to limit their fakeclaiming possibilities this early. I mean, if he is watched or tracked or something now he is pretty dead, as he has already claimed to have a role he is not going to use.
Well that's easy. If he's scum, he has a role where he either won't be taking an action (I'm thinking Enabler, for example), or is ninja, or something.
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I fail to see why his claim helps town.
But I do not see ow it could help him as scum either. If he is scum, he might get into trouble later during a massclaim if he do not (fake)claim a role that fits with this. And I do not think scum would want to limit their fakeclaiming possibilities this early. I mean, if he is watched or tracked or something now he is pretty dead, as he has already claimed to have a role he is not going to use.
It helps him the same way that any VT claim helps scum: They have an explanation why they are not night killed (scum is hunting PRs) and they do not have to present results of any kind, the way a claimed PR would.
PPE: what Voltaire says adds to this.
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If friday, 4 PM is our soft deadline, I will have to leave ~2 hours before that.
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If friday, 4 PM is our soft deadline, I will have to leave ~2 hours before that.
That's fine. The important thing is that we have one.
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You know what,
Vote:ashersky
Last game, he claimed off the bat, got town cred for it, and survived off that cred until the end of the game -- despite many people voicing concerns over his towniness. The fact is, FoSes without votes are just fine for scum.
Let's try lynching him this time! Even if he's town, at least we're not losing a useful power role.
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(I'm talking about time war, where he was scum)
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I understood ash's claim so that it it's debatable whether the role is antitown or now. In fact, if I had to guess, ash is wrong about it being entirely antitown because there is some other role or roles that it interacts with in a protown manner.
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That is L-1 on ashersky. Unvote for now. I understand we want to blitz through D1, but maybe not THAT fast.
FOS on jotheonah for putting someone at L-1 without announcing it.
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Yikes.
Absolutely nobody lynch anybody prior to the soft deadline.
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unvote
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I think ashersky's claim is working just like intended - creating us real discussion topics and interactions. I'd still be VERY surprised if he was scum, what do you guys voting for him think he thought would happen?
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I think ashersky's claim is working just like intended - creating us real discussion topics and interactions. I'd still be VERY surprised if he was scum, what do you guys voting for him think he thought would happen?
I honestly don't know. I do know it reeks of a fakeclaim.
I suppose he could by lying town.
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I think ashersky's claim is working just like intended - creating us real discussion topics and interactions. I'd still be VERY surprised if he was scum, what do you guys voting for him think he thought would happen?
I honestly don't know. I do know it reeks of a fakeclaim.
I suppose he could by lying town.
Isn't doing something weird, arguably antitown to kickstart day 1 a quintessential town ash move?
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I think ashersky's claim is working just like intended - creating us real discussion topics and interactions. I'd still be VERY surprised if he was scum, what do you guys voting for him think he thought would happen?
I think he thought that he would get a nice town pass -- a lot of suspicion, but that town wouldn't have the guts to actually step up and lynch him.
I didn't realize I'd be putting him at L-1 (small games FTW) but I also don't regret it. Scum's not gonna quickhammer town and out themselves, so unless he's unannounced hated it doesn't make much difference.
Isn't doing something weird, arguably antitown to kickstart day 1 a quintessential town ash move?
Not last game it wasn't.
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Isn't doing something weird, arguably antitown to kickstart day 1 a quintessential town ash move?
Honestly? I have given up reading ash through traditional means.
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A fair warning, I haven't read Time War at all.
Isn't doing something weird, arguably antitown to kickstart day 1 a quintessential town ash move?
Honestly? I have given up reading ash through traditional means.
I mean, just because he plays creative doesn't mean you should stop trying. There is definitely a method to his madness. Have you played any of the recent games where ash didn't play? In my opinion almost every single time game without ash has a significantly worse day 1. I really do think his style works.
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Works for whom, that's the question.
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Yes, I have played ash-less D1s. It's true that they feel "worse" at the time. But also REDACTED. Having ash around D1 isn't worse, it isn't better, it's just different.
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I didn't realize I'd be putting him at L-1 (small games FTW) but I also don't regret it. Scum's not gonna quickhammer town and out themselves, so unless he's unannounced hated it doesn't make much difference.
So, like, there's no way joth and ash are both scum. Learning!
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I think ashersky's claim is working just like intended - creating us real discussion topics and interactions. I'd still be VERY surprised if he was scum, what do you guys voting for him think he thought would happen?
I think he thought that he would get a nice town pass -- a lot of suspicion, but that town wouldn't have the guts to actually step up and lynch him.
I didn't realize I'd be putting him at L-1 (small games FTW) but I also don't regret it. Scum's not gonna quickhammer town and out themselves, so unless he's unannounced hated it doesn't make much difference.
Had someone else decided to sheep you without counting the votes, we'd have a lynch already.. But yea, mistakes happen, I'm glad Voltaire caught that.
I think it's extremely short-sighted level 1 paranoia thinking to want to lynch ash here.
To those who say "at least we wouldn't lynch a pr", I say "you can do better, believe in yourself a little".
To those who say "the claim only benefits scum", I present the kickstarting the day argument (it clearly worked!).
To those who say "ash is more likely to do this as scum", I say "I guess we read the situation completely different, then".
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A fair warning, I haven't read Time War at all.
Then you need to read time war. It will take all of 5 minutes. Know ash is scum, and read his first few posts. Then know he wasn't the lynch.
Note that this isn't why I think ash is scum, but it's highly relevant.
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I didn't realize I'd be putting him at L-1 (small games FTW) but I also don't regret it. Scum's not gonna quickhammer town and out themselves, so unless he's unannounced hated it doesn't make much difference.
So, like, there's no way joth and ash are both scum. Learning!
Yeah, bolding it so everyone remembers it!
It's very unlikely Joth and ash are scum from the same team! Someone must remember this in the late game!
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My philosophy on day 1s is to get them over with as quickly as possible. (without being the lynch). they are dreadful dull.
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My philosophy on day 1s is to get them over with as quickly as possible. (without being the lynch). they are dreadful dull.
How much RMM have you played?
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In what way is ash's claim pro-town?
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My philosophy on day 1s is to get them over with as quickly as possible. (without being the lynch). they are dreadful dull.
How much RMM have you played?
I would argue that up until night 1, RMM is not much different than regular mafia.
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In what way is ash's claim pro-town?
Some might argue it isn't, but it got us this. The game is progressing starting immediately from post 1!
I read ash's first five posts of TWM, and I think this is completely different. That was just him claiming early, like Galzria did in MC. This claim is very different.
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This claim is very different.
In what way?
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This claim is very different.
In what way?
It wasn't so extreme, Galzria decided to do the same in MC (as town) and he is generally known as a reasonable, "normal" player. Was ashersky really an enabler, btw?
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It wasn't so extreme, Galzria decided to do the same in MC (as town) and he is generally known as a reasonable, "normal" player. Was ashersky really an enabler, btw?
Yes, he was. He had another 1-shot power he never used (which he would truthfully claim on a later day).
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It wasn't so extreme, Galzria decided to do the same in MC (as town) and he is generally known as a reasonable, "normal" player. Was ashersky really an enabler, btw?
Yes, he was. He had another 1-shot power he never used (which he would truthfully claim on a later day).
Thought so. I think in that situation ash would have claimed enabler even if he was town, so he was actually only lying about his alignment.
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is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
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is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
No, in that ash is on Australian time and almost certainly asleep right now.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
No, I meant Archetype. Scum only want to get on that wagon early if Archetype is town. It sounds like you know he is town and the possibility of his being scum didn't really occur to you.
I don't follow! I'm very much considering the possibility archetype might be scum, I'm even voting for him?
Oh, "this" was referring to the inevitable ashersky-wagon, not the possible archetype-wagon.
I did think you were referring to the Archetype wagon. How did your reasoning go for getting off the ashersky wagon? Were you thinking it was too tempting for scum?
Also, how did you come to change your mind from voting ashersky to supporting him?
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Not sure what to make of this at all. My gut reaction is to not believe ashersky, but I'm not all about gut reactions. Nonetheless, my conclusion about early ash semi-claims is not to act on them one way or another. No town cred, etc. Whatever scum!ash might have hoped to gain from the claim, we should be careful not to offer. If ash does anything to earn town cred down the line, maybe we give some more weight to the claim.
Not a fan of the day 1 mass claim, as per usual.
This echoes my own thoughts on the matter.
Also, ashersky's claim is total WIFOM and discussing it will get us nowhere b/c we simply don't know.
Do we have anyone else looking like a possible lynch candidate? It's always good to have more than one wagon going, I think.
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Do we have anyone else looking like a possible lynch candidate? It's always good to have more than one wagon going, I think.
No.
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Hi everyone! Looks like we're off to a lively start...I had a rather crazy evening yesterday with little time for frivolity. Let me catch up now:
Well, the immediately most noticeable thing is ash's claim. I have to say it gives me a bad feeling, because, as others have said, it's strongly reminiscent of his play in Time War. And honestly, in Time War he had me fooled pretty much all the way up until the end, so my automated Scumhunting Guidance System (SGS) is telling me to find it scummy now. I guess the question is, would ash be audacious enough to do it twice in a row? Possible. I think that many questions in the form of "would ash be audacious enough to do X?" can be answered with yes. I do have to look at his wagon later though, because it seems like it accelerated a little too easily for my taste.
I think it's a bit premature for a fullclaim...don't worry, I'm sure people will start spontaneously claiming any minute now lol.
Eevee seems peppier than normal? Was it him that had the reverse V/LA announcement? In any case it gives me a towny feeling, especially because in GoT he lurked to the win as scum.
Meanwhile Volt is a little more laconic than I expected...I know he'll say "I'm not a superman! Don't expect miracles!" But still it's what I've come to expect haha. I'm not sure I like the opaque way in which he reacted to ash's claim. And you may know my feeling about soft deadlines by now (not worth talking about and rarely effective). Scummish feeling here.
joth's unannounced L-1 vote seems scummy prima facie, but I actually think it reads relatively towny to me--especially at this point in the game it's more likely that town is going to be cavalier with their vote like that, while I'm sure scum is watching the count like a hawk. Seems genuine enough so far.
Mostly null on the rest due to an as-of-yet paucity of posting. Slight town on xeiron (seems like he's always got something smart to say), slighter town on EFHW (normal, cordial self by the look of it), slight scum on faust (not quite as talky as I would have expected out of the gate). True null on Archetype, I can't read that guy worth a damn. But we'll see once they've given me something a little meatier to work with.
(insert topical Arrested Development quote here--I need to rewatch it so I have some zingers readily at my disposal lol)
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joth's unannounced L-1 vote seems scummy prima facie, but I actually think it reads relatively towny to me--especially at this point in the game it's more likely that town is going to be cavalier with their vote like that, while I'm sure scum is watching the count like a hawk. Seems genuine enough so far.
First, laconic? That's a new one. Second, though I obviously disagree with you about myself, I agree about joth's towniness for the same reasons you state.
But we'll see once they've given me something a little meatier to work with.
(insert topical Arrested Development quote here--I need to rewatch it so I have some zingers readily at my disposal lol)
You can just taste those meaty leading posters parts right now.
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vote: archetype
better than ashersky. this is a wagon scum might want to get on early.
This logic only works if you know Archetype is town.
I assume you meant ashersky? Him being town is the strongest read I have.
No, I meant Archetype. Scum only want to get on that wagon early if Archetype is town. It sounds like you know he is town and the possibility of his being scum didn't really occur to you.
I don't follow! I'm very much considering the possibility archetype might be scum, I'm even voting for him?
Oh, "this" was referring to the inevitable ashersky-wagon, not the possible archetype-wagon.
I did think you were referring to the Archetype wagon. How did your reasoning go for getting off the ashersky wagon? Were you thinking it was too tempting for scum?
Also, how did you come to change your mind from voting ashersky to supporting him?
I was never on the ashersky-wagon.
In fact my second post of the game was telling how I got a town read on him.
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is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
No, in that ash is on Australian time and almost certainly asleep right now.
Awake, caught up. This post stuck out as the scummiest so far this game.
Why? Well, let's timeline Volt.
1--expresses scum read, strong enough to vote, no reasoning given.
2--states will explain in due time. (note: doesn't)
3--claims he didn't realize I had VTed myself.
4--hedges on me.
5--this post, defending me.
It reads like warning off a scum partner from a faulty line of thinking. If I was going to call the team, there it is. (Note: too early to call teams, not too early to add to ok to lynch list.). Plus, strong scum read for no reason dissolving into defense? Not town!volt.
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More on me: the great thing about being me is that scum is forced to take a stance early on me. They basically need to decide to try to mislynch me or defend me for "I told you so" town cred.
Jotheonah is in the former; eevee could be in the latter (although, for the record, town read on eevee at this point).
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Voltaire can be so useful if he is town, but I might support lynching him today. Ash rises some reasonable points.
Why did you initially vote for ash, Voltaire?
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is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
No, in that ash is on Australian time and almost certainly asleep right now.
Awake, caught up. This post stuck out as the scummiest so far this game.
Why? Well, let's timeline Volt.
1--expresses scum read, strong enough to vote, no reasoning given.
2--states will explain in due time. (note: doesn't)
3--claims he didn't realize I had VTed myself.
4--hedges on me.
5--this post, defending me.
It reads like warning off a scum partner from a faulty line of thinking. If I was going to call the team, there it is. (Note: too early to call teams, not too early to add to ok to lynch list.). Plus, strong scum read for no reason dissolving into defense? Not town!volt.
you are reading an awful lot into that. I was asking whether you were lurking (essentially). Volt was reminding me of your RL time zone.
Really ridiculous leap to some kind of scum secret code.
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I'm not defending you. I'm pointing out why a line of thinking is flawed.
That Eevee seems to be the only one defending you (unless I've missed something) is worth noting.
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Voltaire can be so useful if he is town, but I might support lynching him today. Ash rises some reasonable points.
Why did you initially vote for ash, Voltaire?
All I was doing was pointing out that of course ash isn't posting lately, he's in a different time zone. Sure enough, he started posting in the mid-afternoon my time (which is something I have learned about ash's posting habits).
I initially voted because I think ash is scum. Then I thought about it, got nervous, realized my initial thinking was correct, then panicked when the wagon got to L-1.
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I wouldn't say it's secret code, more like possibly scum forcing themselves to look at all issues from both sides, wanting to appear fair so much they are first to remind themselves and others about things like that.
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how's the weather in crazy paranoia land?
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I wouldn't say it's secret code, more like possibly scum forcing themselves to look at all issues from both sides, wanting to appear fair so much they are first to remind themselves and others about things like that.
I honestly cannot follow what you are saying.
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I wouldn't say it's secret code, more like possibly scum forcing themselves to look at all issues from both sides, wanting to appear fair so much they are first to remind themselves and others about things like that.
I honestly cannot follow what you are saying.
Oh, missed the bottom of joth's post.
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how's the weather in crazy paranoia land?
I maintain if we just lynch the first person who makes a mistake / does something antitown without trying to press for different things, we'll end up with day 1 town lynches disproportionately high percentage of the time. In my opinion you have got to hunt for more subtle things, however paranoid it might seem.
Worst case scenario, you create useful interactions.
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More on me: the great thing about being me is that scum is forced to take a stance early on me. They basically need to decide to try to mislynch me or defend me for "I told you so" town cred.
Jotheonah is in the former; eevee could be in the latter (although, for the record, town read on eevee at this point).
Ash has a point here.
vote: Eevee for defending Ash.
The idea is that !scum Eevee would know Ashersky is town (assuming thay are not partners), and it would be easier to (correctly) read Asherskys claim as a townclaim.
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
So you think I'm scummy for defending town ash or ash is just scum? This is not taking a great turn from my perspective..
Fwiw both are reasonable narratives, but I'm hoping you'll have more faith in yourself and come up
with something better!
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
Why would you champion a mislynch on purpose, though? Wouldn't you prefer to look for scum?
I mean, if I'm lynched, it's definitely okay for town, as far as relative powers go. I'm not so okay with it though, given I'm town, and I really don't want to be out of my only game so fast.
Has everyone posted that's in this game?
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Vote Count
ashersky (2): Archetype, joth
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Archetype (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): xeiron
Not Voting (4): faust, Walrus, EFHW, Voltaire
Up to date, as I assume yuma is on shift.
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how's the weather in crazy paranoia land?
I maintain if we just lynch the first person who makes a mistake / does something antitown without trying to press for different things, we'll end up with day 1 town lynches disproportionately high percentage of the time. In my opinion you have got to hunt for more subtle things, however paranoid it might seem.
Worst case scenario, you create useful interactions.
I promise you, I neither made a mistake nor did something antitown.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
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Voltaire can be so useful if he is town, but I might support lynching him today. Ash rises some reasonable points.
Why did you initially vote for ash, Voltaire?
All I was doing was pointing out that of course ash isn't posting lately, he's in a different time zone. Sure enough, he started posting in the mid-afternoon my time (which is something I have learned about ash's posting habits).
I initially voted because I think ash is scum. Then I thought about it, got nervous, realized my initial thinking was correct, then panicked when the wagon got to L-1.
Dude, this still isn't an answer to your cryptic vote from the beginning. "I think ash is scum" isn't a reason, it's an opinion. What's the reason you think I'm scum? That's what we all want to hear.
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I'm not defending you. I'm pointing out why a line of thinking is flawed.
At least I have a line of thinking that you can point to. You've STILL not given us your line of thinking at all.
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You are correct, I have not.
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You are correct, I have not.
Now THAT is anti-town.
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Vote Count 1.2
ashersky (2): Archetype, jotheonah
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Archetype (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): xeiron
Not Voting (4): Walrus, EFHW, faust, Voltaire
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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I was never on the ashersky-wagon.
In fact my second post of the game was telling how I got a town read on him.
ok, I misread your post AGAIN. Sorry, forget I said anything ....
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gotta go again - I'll be back tonight. Before I forget, though, Friday afternoon won't work for me. I won't be available for more than a few minutes at a time that day until after 5.
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Friday afternoon is like Saturday morning here. Lame-o for me.
I prefer Thursday evening.
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Hello?
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Hello?
Annyong
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Hello?
Annyong
Is that an AD joke?
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Hello?
Annyong
Is that an AD joke?
Yes. Expect occasional mod interjections with AD jokes and flavor. If it is pertinent to the game state I will explicitly make it known.
Ash, I thought you were an AD fan?
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Hello?
Annyong
Is that an AD joke?
Yes. Expect occasional mod interjections with AD jokes and flavor. If it is pertinent to the game state I will explicitly make it known.
Ash, I thought you were an AD fan?
I've seen part of the pilot when they re-launched AD this year.
I'm a fan of the guy from Alvin and the Chipmunks who's in AD, and the main guy who is sort of like Paul Rudd but isn't Paul Rudd is pretty good. But I've literally seen less than one episode ever.
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To those who say "the claim only benefits scum", I present the kickstarting the day argument (it clearly worked!).
Kickstarting the Day is not nearly as important as saving our (important) PRs from being nightkilled.
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I promise you, I neither made a mistake nor did something antitown.
This post makes me think that ashersky, no matter which alignment he is, has not revealed the whole truth to us. Is is only left to decide for us whether he is lying scum or lying town.
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To those who say "the claim only benefits scum", I present the kickstarting the day argument (it clearly worked!).
Kickstarting the Day is not nearly as important as saving our (important) PRs from being nightkilled.
I don't think it's all that fruitful to analyze whether ash should have done what he did, the important question is whether he is town or scum. With your second point I agree with, but again, not a very fruitful subject.
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
Why would you champion a mislynch on purpose, though? Wouldn't you prefer to look for scum?
I mean, if I'm lynched, it's definitely okay for town, as far as relative powers go. I'm not so okay with it though, given I'm town, and I really don't want to be out of my only game so fast.
Has everyone posted that's in this game?
Ugh. I hate this willful misreading, which I have seen many times before.
OUT OF TWO EQUALLY GOOD LYNCHES, from my perspective, I would choose Ash OVER EEVEE because, per his claim, IF I'M WRONG (which obviously I don't think I am) then it is better for town than if I were wrong about Eevee. That is all I was saying.
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to read that as "willfully championing a mislynch" is the worst kind of putting words in someone's mouth.
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Well, I guess you're right. And looking at ash's claim closer, it's weird as a scum move. I mean, claiming VT will instantly cast suspicion on you, and ashersky knows that. So... if he's town, he's hiding something. If he's scum, he's lying. Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today. So where are other candidates? Eevee is very strongly defending ash, which is interesting. I think it means that they are not scum together. And as already pointed out, jotheonah is also likely not scumpartner with ash. So... we lynch one of those, if they are scum, this indicates ash being town?
Eevee comes off townier in this than jotheonah, so vote: jotheonah.
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PPE 2 btw, the "I guess you're right" is directed towards Eevee.
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your logic, it does not resemble our earth logic.
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Well, I guess you're right. And looking at ash's claim closer, it's weird as a scum move. I mean, claiming VT will instantly cast suspicion on you, and ashersky knows that. So... if he's town, he's hiding something. If he's scum, he's lying. Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today. So where are other candidates? Eevee is very strongly defending ash, which is interesting. I think it means that they are not scum together. And as already pointed out, jotheonah is also likely not scumpartner with ash. So... we lynch one of those, if they are scum, this indicates ash being town?
Eevee comes off townier in this than jotheonah, so vote: jotheonah.
While I appreciate the vote of confidence and your (in my opinion) correct assessment of ashersky, I really don't think joth is a good lynch at all. He is active, taking stances and, you know, disagreeing does not a scum make.
I'd much much rather look at Voltaire, Walrus, EFHW, xeiron and Archetype.
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While I theoretically agree, there's not really much to look at. And I am not yet at the point where I'm calling for a lurker lynch. I have found nothing particularly scummy in any player's posts so far.
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While I theoretically agree, there's not really much to look at. And I am not yet at the point where I'm calling for a lurker lynch. I have found nothing particularly scummy in any player's posts so far.
I agree, it's more than the other players have done some particularly towny things. PoE is a friend.
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While I theoretically agree, there's not really much to look at. And I am not yet at the point where I'm calling for a lurker lynch. I have found nothing particularly scummy in any player's posts so far.
"I find no one scummy, so I will vote for an active poster arbitrarily"
Vote: faust
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While I theoretically agree, there's not really much to look at. And I am not yet at the point where I'm calling for a lurker lynch. I have found nothing particularly scummy in any player's posts so far.
"I find no one scummy, so I will vote for an active poster arbitrarily"
Vote: faust
While I totally agree with you on the flaws in faust's logic, I think you are falling to the same trap than with ashersky. Making mistakes* /= being scum. Why would scum make such a weird leap?
*yes yes, debatable. mistakes from joth's point of view
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joth's unannounced L-1 vote seems scummy prima facie, but I actually think it reads relatively towny to me--especially at this point in the game it's more likely that town is going to be cavalier with their vote like that, while I'm sure scum is watching the count like a hawk. Seems genuine enough so far.
First, laconic? That's a new one. Second, though I obviously disagree with you about myself, I agree about joth's towniness for the same reasons you state.
But we'll see once they've given me something a little meatier to work with.
(insert topical Arrested Development quote here--I need to rewatch it so I have some zingers readily at my disposal lol)
You can just taste those meaty leading posters parts right now.
By laconic I mean that I'm feeling now like you've been posting like "Yes", "No", "All in good time", while normally I think your posts are longer and more developed. Maybe you're just trying to be sagacious, or maybe there's something you're not telling us. Other more recent posts like "You are correct, I have not" give me the same vibe.
Nice alley oop on the AD reference though haha
I agree with jo though that ash's post on Volt does seem like a stretch. I know it's just D1 speculation, but it's exactly that--D1 speculation. There's not a whole lot of definitive information to extract or deduce right now, and ash's confidence here makes me a little uncomfortable. He could be totally purloined letter-ing with two D1 claim scum games in a row.
More towny feelings from jo and Eevee. I agree jo that I think ash was misrepresenting you.
faust's vote on jo strikes me as weird, possibly scummy?
And I would love to hear more from xeiron, and especially Archetype and EFHW. Scum could be feeling very comfortable lurking along right now. Either way, I'll need something more from you guys to make a judgment. I knooooow I'm pretty lurky too, but I try to make each of my posts count for something.
So I guess where I stand right now is vote: Voltaire, and OK with an ash lynch too. Next preference would possibly be faust, or maybe one of the lurkoids--I don't want to fall into the pattern yuma cautioned against in that one game, of biasing people as scummy just because they've been more active.
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Walrus you said the same things about Voltaire in Time Wars, and he was town.
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To those who say "the claim only benefits scum", I present the kickstarting the day argument (it clearly worked!).
Kickstarting the Day is not nearly as important as saving our (important) PRs from being nightkilled.
I don't think it's all that fruitful to analyze whether ash should have done what he did, the important question is whether he is town or scum. With your second point I agree with, but again, not a very fruitful subject.
It also isn't fruitful to analyze if he's town or scum. Like I said before, it's WIFOM. We need to beware of scum trying to extend this conversation as a distraction from scumhunting them.
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If shouldn't analyze people's behavior to find out if they are scum or not because scum can intentionally manipulate that and mess with our process, what should we do instead?
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Well, I guess you're right. And looking at ash's claim closer, it's weird as a scum move. I mean, claiming VT will instantly cast suspicion on you, and ashersky knows that. So... if he's town, he's hiding something. If he's scum, he's lying. Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today. So where are other candidates? Eevee is very strongly defending ash, which is interesting. I think it means that they are not scum together. And as already pointed out, jotheonah is also likely not scumpartner with ash. So... we lynch one of those, if they are scum, this indicates ash being town?
Eevee comes off townier in this than jotheonah, so vote: jotheonah.
This doesn't make sense to me. Why lynch someone else to find out ash's alignment?
This is also similar to what joth was doing, which is setting up "either/or" pairs, which creates the feeling that other players are off the table, whether or not that is your intention.
xeiron has been very quiet, also Archetype.
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Walrus you said the same things about Voltaire in Time Wars, and he was town.
? Are you referring to Game of Thrones? Volt modded Time War
If so, then I see your point, but I still think there's a difference in style there. His posts weren't as substantial or analytical as I wanted to see in Game of Thrones. But here they seem like terse one-liners, which feels off to me. Also bear in mind that he *was* scum in Chocolate Factory, and he had the same basic accusations levied against him there.
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If shouldn't analyze people's behavior to find out if they are scum or not because scum can intentionally manipulate that and mess with our process, what should we do instead?
I'm just saying that the ashersky question is WIFOM right now. We don't have the information to make a judgment, certainly not enough to conclude he is scum. The discussion we have already had seems to have canvassed all the angles, and we're at risk for becoming derailed for too long. Like the 3rd party thing in I forget which game - LOTR2?
I never said don't analyze other people's behavior.
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Well, I guess you're right. And looking at ash's claim closer, it's weird as a scum move. I mean, claiming VT will instantly cast suspicion on you, and ashersky knows that. So... if he's town, he's hiding something. If he's scum, he's lying. Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today. So where are other candidates? Eevee is very strongly defending ash, which is interesting. I think it means that they are not scum together. And as already pointed out, jotheonah is also likely not scumpartner with ash. So... we lynch one of those, if they are scum, this indicates ash being town?
Eevee comes off townier in this than jotheonah, so vote: jotheonah.
This doesn't make sense to me. Why lynch someone else to find out ash's alignment?
This is also similar to what joth was doing, which is setting up "either/or" pairs, which creates the feeling that other players are off the table, whether or not that is your intention.
xeiron has been very quiet, also Archetype.
Good point about faust's post, it was actually even weirder than I though.. it's extremely weird to lynch someone else to get info on one player (what info, how reliable?), especially as that person has effectively claimed VT.
faust's logic to me seems to be "ash is a puzzle.. eevee and joth have taken strong stances on him.. we should maybe lynch one or the other to get a read on ash.. eevee comes off townier.. vote: joth". he doesn't even mention the possibility of looking at lynch candidates outside our top three contributors!
i've liked efhw's recent contributions, enough to remove her from my lynch pool in fact.
right now i'm looking at xeiron, walrus, voltaire and archetype. faust is sort of sitting on the fence.
ps: walrus, your vocabulary is awesome. i love reading your posts.
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Walrus you said the same things about Voltaire in Time Wars, and he was town.
? Are you referring to Game of Thrones? Volt modded Time War
If so, then I see your point, but I still think there's a difference in style there. His posts weren't as substantial or analytical as I wanted to see in Game of Thrones. But here they seem like terse one-liners, which feels off to me. Also bear in mind that he *was* scum in Chocolate Factory, and he had the same basic accusations levied against him there.
ok, I guess it was GoT. I always mix up games. I think he's trying to create drama, kind of like ashersky, with his terseness, and I don't know if that's scummy or not. I didn't follow Chocolate Factory, so I can't comment there.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
Just noticed this. You realize I'm not in any ongoing games?
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I promise you, I neither made a mistake nor did something antitown.
This post makes me think that ashersky, no matter which alignment he is, has not revealed the whole truth to us. Is is only left to decide for us whether he is lying scum or lying town.
Welcome to Wifomlandia.
You have to admit that, "if" I'm town, scum will have to decide what to do about me. Am I dangerous to them? Or am I just drawing their NK?
Take that scum!
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
Why would you champion a mislynch on purpose, though? Wouldn't you prefer to look for scum?
I mean, if I'm lynched, it's definitely okay for town, as far as relative powers go. I'm not so okay with it though, given I'm town, and I really don't want to be out of my only game so fast.
Has everyone posted that's in this game?
Ugh. I hate this willful misreading, which I have seen many times before.
OUT OF TWO EQUALLY GOOD LYNCHES, from my perspective, I would choose Ash OVER EEVEE because, per his claim, IF I'M WRONG (which obviously I don't think I am) then it is better for town than if I were wrong about Eevee. That is all I was saying.
I find it hard to believe we'd be in a situation where there are two lynches that are exactly equal. However, if you were choosing between a mislynch of town!ash and a mislynch of town!Eevee, given what you know about me, it may make sense that you'd prefer to lynch me since at worst you already know what you would be losing, but Eevee might be some super awesome role.
I think that's what you meant.
It's better to paint it in a ridiculous way though, so you can overreact like you did and give us more with which to read you. Thanks for the fake-frustration allcaps barrage, though. Good times!
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I promise you, I neither made a mistake nor did something antitown.
This post makes me think that ashersky, no matter which alignment he is, has not revealed the whole truth to us. Is is only left to decide for us whether he is lying scum or lying town.
Not revealing the whole truth is not the same as lying. He already said there were things he wasn't saying, and that seems like the right approach, don't you think? Fullclaiming now is not a good plan.
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to read that as "willfully championing a mislynch" is the worst kind of putting words in someone's mouth.
The worst kind? Really? You can't think of a worse situation where someone puts words in someone's mouth? Like, what if I cut up cockroach corpses into the shapes of words? That would definitely be worse. Or what if quotes were misattributed to you in a national newspaper and it cost you the election? That would be worse.
I think this was the worst kind of hyperbole ever in the history of time.
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I find it hard to believe we'd be in a situation where there are two lynches that are exactly equal. However, if you were choosing between a mislynch of town!ash and a mislynch of town!Eevee, given what you know about me, it may make sense that you'd prefer to lynch me since at worst you already know what you would be losing, but Eevee might be some super awesome role.
I think that's what you meant.
It's better to paint it in a ridiculous way though, so you can overreact like you did and give us more with which to read you. Thanks for the fake-frustration allcaps barrage, though. Good times!
What was an overreaction on joth's part? Being misrepresented in a game like this requires immediate attention, and whispering certainly doesn't work.
And then you say his frustration is fake. So which is it? Overreaction or fake reaction? You can't have it both ways.
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Towny read on walrus so far. Sounds like regular walrus. Granted, he could fake it as scum, but I expect there to be a bit of a titter in his giggle when he's scum.
EFHW is her calm, cool, collected IC-sounding self. Which is scary, since she's scary good as scum. But anyway, helpful and towny on D1. She's quickly joining the yuma club of "always keep her around until at least D2 because whether town or scum, she'll make D1 better."
Inactivity is bad news bears for X and Arch.
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And then you say his frustration is fake. So which is it? Overreaction or fake reaction? You can't have it both ways.
Sorry, fake overreaction. He couldn't possibly have been as pissed off as he acted.
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Vote Count 1.3
ashersky (1): Archetype
Voltaire (2): ashersky, Walrus
Archetype (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): xeiron
jotheonah (1): faust
faust (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (2): EFHW, Voltaire
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
Why would you champion a mislynch on purpose, though? Wouldn't you prefer to look for scum?
I mean, if I'm lynched, it's definitely okay for town, as far as relative powers go. I'm not so okay with it though, given I'm town, and I really don't want to be out of my only game so fast.
Has everyone posted that's in this game?
Ugh. I hate this willful misreading, which I have seen many times before.
OUT OF TWO EQUALLY GOOD LYNCHES, from my perspective, I would choose Ash OVER EEVEE because, per his claim, IF I'M WRONG (which obviously I don't think I am) then it is better for town than if I were wrong about Eevee. That is all I was saying.
Strongly agree with Jo here. I'd want to lynch Ash because he's basically a VT at this point which is potentially better than losing a Stronger PR from a different player. Towny read on jo.
I forgot who brought up Town lying, but I'm OK with it as long as you dont fake an investigation result. If ash brought it up, Multiple FOS: him since he could be scum who could use the excuse of lying to get himself off the chopping block if needs be.
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While I theoretically agree, there's not really much to look at. And I am not yet at the point where I'm calling for a lurker lynch. I have found nothing particularly scummy in any player's posts so far.
"I find no one scummy, so I will vote for an active poster arbitrarily"
Vote: faust
Well, that's not the case. The one scummy thing that happened up to now was you putting ashersky at L-1. Also I find the whole attitude of "let's end D1 as quickly as possible and just do the easy lynch" a bit suspicious. So yes, I find you a bit scummy.
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And then you say his frustration is fake. So which is it? Overreaction or fake reaction? You can't have it both ways.
Sorry, fake overreaction. He couldn't possibly have been as pissed off as he acted.
So joth, how mad were you?
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Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today.
I don't think ash's claim gets him a pass. I don't think there is more to come, and I'm kind of surprised, you seem less clean in your thinking than usual. I guess you can't have a pps time-travel epiphany every day, huh?
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And then you say his frustration is fake. So which is it? Overreaction or fake reaction? You can't have it both ways.
Sorry, fake overreaction. He couldn't possibly have been as pissed off as he acted.
So joth, how mad were you?
When I play these games, I'm like very good at compartmentalizing my emotions. How mad was I IRL? Negligibly. How mad was I in the game? Well, more frustrated than mad. And mid-level frustrated.
What purpose would a calculated fake overreaction serve scum!joth here anyway?
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Because of the possibility that ash has some sort of secret plan going, I would like to not lynch him today.
I don't think ash's claim gets him a pass. I don't think there is more to come, and I'm kind of surprised, you seem less clean in your thinking than usual. I guess you can't have a pps time-travel epiphany every day, huh?
Well, yes, I went a little back and forth with how I stand towards ash. First I thought: VT claim, lynch him! But then, this is ash we're talking about. I do not think he would just claim VT without having something in mind. And honestly, I would like to see it play out. Now I understand people who want to lynch ash for his claim, and if he ends up being the lynch, I would not be terribly unhappy. I just don't think the "lynch him because we're not losing a PR" line of thoughts really applies here.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
Just noticed this. You realize I'm not in any ongoing games?
Yes you are.
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Challenge: ashersky
I'm a Gladiator with a twist. Part of that is that it's compulsive. Compulsive D1 gladiator is crazily anti-town. This is why I do not believe that ash has an anti-town role that he can voluntarily skip. Plus, a reason I can't discuss.
I debated going with a lurker or waiting longer, but I don't want to drag out this day any longer since I knew I would have to turn it around at some point. Plus my faith in lurker lynches is a bit low right now.
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If I am right about ash, I highly doubt Eevee is his partner. Knowing ash would be doing this gambit, I would expect his partner to come out against it (as in be one of the "you claimed VT!" people).
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Challenge: ashersky
I'm a Gladiator with a twist. Part of that is that it's compulsive. Compulsive D1 gladiator is crazily anti-town. This is why I do not believe that ash has an anti-town role that he can voluntarily skip. Plus, a reason I can't discuss.
I debated going with a lurker or waiting longer, but I don't want to drag out this day any longer since I knew I would have to turn it around at some point. Plus my faith in lurker lynches is a bit low right now.
Ugh, so what do you think? ashersky just claimed something he knew he would get heavy suspicion for for no reason? Why did you not claim this before choosing your challengee?
Vote: Voltaire
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Well, this is not too bad, I guess. Now we have to choose between a claimed VT and a claimed anti-town role? Things could be worse.
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Because I didn't want scum biasing who/what I would chose. Believe me, I've been thinking about this all game and I decided it was best to keep quiet.
Yeah, he claims it, gets suspicion, then everything is fine. I didn't realize it matched RMM12 until it was pointed out. The big reason is that there's just no way there's an anti-town role you can just give up (not with my role). If I'm horribly wrong about this it's not the worst because Reasons.
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Voltaire, are you a compulsive Gladiator every Day?
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Voltaire, are you a compulsive Gladiator every Day?
No*
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Bleh, I don't like this. Like, at all. I'm getting a feeling that this is Town vs Town. Now all we can discuss is choosing between ash and Voltaire, every other possible interaction this Day is killed off. Nothing to analyze. Voltaire, weren't you the PoE instead of scum reads D1 guy? What happened to that?
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Voltaire, weren't you the PoE instead of scum reads D1 guy? What happened to that?
Yes, I am. Suffice to say it has not been working lately. But more importantly, it isn't so much that ash is a scum read (though I am seeing it in all of his posts, I am trying to fight it, I can never tell what is going on) it's the claim that simply does not match up. It reeks of fakeclaim and I haven't ever seen ash lie as town.
I'll say it now, I'm never good at dancing around these things, I'm hiding a twist to my role. I am fairly confident this is the right move.
I wanted the soft deadline so we could have some of a normal D1 before this. I completely disagree that there is nothing to analyze.
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Took a little time to reread Voltaire. Very consistent in what he does, everything hints that he had something like his planned. Just for the record, what would have happened if we had lynched ashersky before you could challenge him?
Maybe we want Voltaire to flavor claim? Could be helpful to see if his role fits the flavor. And we might want ash to claim.
I'm less sure about Voltaire now. What he did and how he did it is quite unusual, and I expect scum to take the more "usual" approach.
Unvote
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Just for the record, what would have happened if we had lynched ashersky before you could challenge him?
Pretty sure I would have been modkilled, hence the panic.
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Voltaire's role also doesn't look like a scum role. A scum team here would have 2 members, right? If one of them challenges D1, there's a 50% chance of town hitting scum D1, leaving the other team member alone. I find it hard to see such a role as balanced.
I really look forward to reading other people's thoughts on this!
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Will flavor-claim if that becomes the consensus.
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Did you have to challenge ashersky?
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Did you have to challenge ashersky?
What do you mean? I had to challenge someone, I chose ashersky.
If this is just a rhetorical expressing a wish that I didn't, noted.
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We need to see some mod confirmation that volt isn't lying. I'd wait for a vote count with wiped votes before believing the guy.
If it's real, we should both full claim before deciding who dies.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
Just noticed this. You realize I'm not in any ongoing games?
Yes you are.
What? If so, I've been lurking for weeks. And didnt know I was signed up.
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I would point out a few things:
--the last gladiator in an f.ds game was both compulsive AND scum
--just because Voltaire may have a compulsive anti-town role, that is a terrible reason to assume I'm fake claiming a non-compulsive anti-town role.
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It's a weird "take a leap of faith on one claim over another" situation we have here.
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We need to see some mod confirmation that volt isn't lying. I'd wait for a vote count with wiped votes before believing the guy.
If it's real, we should both full claim before deciding who dies.
I agree.
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Well this is interesting...
I guess it has the main effect of simplifying things. Now it's just a binary decision for today, right? And not entirely disagreeable to me, as it's between two of my scumreads--although it is slightly annoying to have our options curtailed like that.
My first thought was that it does seem like a townier claim than not, with reasoning along the line of faust's most recent post. I guess having this weird situation could explain some of Volt's weird behavior.
But now ash you're saying there's been a scum gladiator in the recent past? Would you mind saying what game it is so I can take a look myself? I don't think I've seen a gladiator in my personal experience on this site...it reminded me a bit of the Desperado role from Grimm, but obviously that was way different and I wasn't even a part of that game.
I agree that I'd like to see a wiped vote count, although I don't think Volt would lie about something that easily verifiable, at least. I also think it's probably best that both of them full claim. I'll keep my vote where it is for now, but I have some thinking and rereading to do...
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Did you have to challenge ashersky?
What do you mean? I had to challenge someone, I chose ashersky.
If this is just a rhetorical expressing a wish that I didn't, noted.
no, it was just the * next to your answering that you don't have to every day, that made me think maybe there has to be a certain set of circumstances that kicks in the compulsive gladiator and picks or constrains who you challenge.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
Just noticed this. You realize I'm not in any ongoing games?
Yes you are.
What? If so, I've been lurking for weeks. And didnt know I was signed up.
Dynasty Warriors 2. We're both dead in it.
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I would point out a few things:
--the last gladiator in an f.ds game was both compulsive AND scum
Right, that was Voltgloss in LOTR2, which ashersky modded. That was a complicated game!
Voltgloss got A LOT of mileage out of that role. He was practically IC (though I think yuma suspected him, iirc). Town was only saved by Jimmmmmm who was a survivor (that day) and decided to take town's side.
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But now ash you're saying there's been a scum gladiator in the recent past? Would you mind saying what game it is so I can take a look myself? I don't think I've seen a gladiator in my personal experience on this site...it reminded me a bit of the Desperado role from Grimm, but obviously that was way different and I wasn't even a part of that game.
Voltgloss in LotR2 I think? It's the only time I've encountered the role before this game.
PPE: EFHW
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Having only two choices can be a bummer for town, but otoh, the development of the game was getting kind of arrested.
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Booooooooooooooooooooooo
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Booooooooooooooooooooooo
and you were my inspiration!
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Having only two choices can be a bummer for town, but otoh, the development of the game was getting kind of arrested.
First: :P :( >:(
Second, I feel better about this. ash's first reaction is to imply that maybe I'm faking an impossible-to-fake role.
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Booooooooooooooooooooooo
and you were my inspiration!
Hahaha I meant that "boo" in the most good-natured way possible ;)
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Having only two choices can be a bummer for town, but otoh, the development of the game was getting kind of arrested.
First: :P :( >:(
Second, I feel better about this. ash's first reaction is to imply that maybe I'm faking an impossible-to-fake role.
Voltaire, you said before that you were trying to resist seeing ashersky's posts as scummy. Why would you do that? Doesn't that contradict your choosing to challenge him?
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Scum gladiators have to be compulsive, or scum won't use the role. It highly increases the chances of a scum lynch, you see. That's the main argument for a compulsive gladiator being scum.
If Volt is a town gladiator, he's probably lying about part of his role, like the compulsive part.
As for my reaction, what did you expect. Check the votes, I've been on you since day one. Caught scum is caught.
Compulsive gladiator is a scum role only.
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Because I wanted to make sure I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias.
It doesn't contradict my challenging him because it's just for different reasons. Claim = fishy, a reason from an ongoing game I swear I will post the moment it ends, posts = scummy. I tried to weigh the first two more and throw away the third. Which is not entirely possible because I am human but eh.
I do appreciate that town is put in a strange claiming dilemma because of this. The nice thing is that I am already getting some reads on who I think is more likely to be scum even if I am wrong about ash. I assume if I am right about ash then his partner really has no choice but to vote me. It's a nifty new situation.
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So far, the claim is far from impossible to fake claim. I could type Challenge: faust, and that wouldn't make it so. Mod confirmation plz.
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I hope people aren't missing the point of my claim, which had nothing to do with me, and everything to do with optimal town play.
Others out there with misdirection roles: do not use them!
I claimed to put weight behind that request. It showed I was willing to put my money where my mouth is.
Once Volt is mid-confirmed, I'll full claim. Then you'll know I wasn't lying, and you can trust my posts in retrospect.
And do NOT give Volt IC status tomorrow and beyond, please.
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Caught scum is caught.
Where have I seen this behavior before...
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Because I wanted to make sure I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias.
It doesn't contradict my challenging him because it's just for different reasons. Claim = fishy, a reason from an ongoing game I swear I will post the moment it ends, posts = scummy. I tried to weigh the first two more and throw away the third. Which is not entirely possible because I am human but eh.
I do appreciate that town is put in a strange claiming dilemma because of this. The nice thing is that I am already getting some reads on who I think is more likely to be scum even if I am wrong about ash. I assume if I am right about ash then his partner really has no choice but to vote me. It's a nifty new situation.
For the record, I was town in that game. Maybe you mean every other recent game, where I was scum?
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Caught scum is caught.
Where have I seen this behavior before...
I plan to write you a gigantic, gloating post about how incredibly wrong you are in the speccy.
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For the record, I was town in that game. Maybe you mean every other recent game, where I was scum?
No, I mean that one, and that's all I'm going to say for now.
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I'd mention, town!ash is the perfect target for a scum gladiator. Relatively little heat will be brought upon Voltaire for this.
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To be honest, I am trying my darnedest to give Voltaire the "he's a sadly misguided towny who has shown an unfair bias against me in the past" fair look. But it's hairdo.
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Eagerly awaiting the full-claim, ash. Also, you're talking as though you've already been lynched?
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Hairdo = hard too
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Eagerly awaiting the full-claim, ash. Also, you're talking as though you've already been lynched?
Eagerly awaiting mod-confirmation of your claim.
You think you're getting lynched? You are never lynched on D1. At least my flip will vindicate me against you.
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I'd suggest someone vote for someone other than us two right now. That will help confirm the claim in the next vote count.
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You think you're getting lynched? You are never lynched on D1. At least my flip will vindicate me against you.
Not lately, but it was all the rage for awhile. Except for my most recent 2ish games, I am always a D1 lynch candidate.
It confuses me because honestly that's not the reaction I expected.
As far as mod confirmation, well, fine, yeah.
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Because I wanted to make sure I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias.
It doesn't contradict my challenging him because it's just for different reasons. Claim = fishy, a reason from an ongoing game I swear I will post the moment it ends, posts = scummy. I tried to weigh the first two more and throw away the third. Which is not entirely possible because I am human but eh.
I do appreciate that town is put in a strange claiming dilemma because of this. The nice thing is that I am already getting some reads on who I think is more likely to be scum even if I am wrong about ash. I assume if I am right about ash then his partner really has no choice but to vote me. It's a nifty new situation.
I still don't understand. It is either you or him, and you chose him. It doesn't matter now if you think he is scummy or not, confirmation bias is no longer relevant, unless you plan to self-vote [in a yuma game, might get you mod-killed!]. You are speaking as if you are not sure if he is town or scum, but wishing to be objective means you don't want him lynched if he is town.
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Voltaire, weren't you the PoE instead of scum reads D1 guy? What happened to that?
Yes, I am. Suffice to say it has not been working lately. But more importantly, it isn't so much that ash is a scum read (though I am seeing it in all of his posts, I am trying to fight it, I can never tell what is going on) it's the claim that simply does not match up. It reeks of fakeclaim and I haven't ever seen ash lie as town.
bolded the "am", suggesting you are still trying to be objective post-challenge.
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I still don't understand. It is either you or him, and you chose him. It doesn't matter now if you think he is scummy or not, confirmation bias is no longer relevant, unless you plan to self-vote [in a yuma game, might get you mod-killed!]. You are speaking as if you are not sure if he is town or scum, but wishing to be objective means you don't want him lynched if he is town.
You're forgetting the part where I'm a compulsive Gladiator and have to pick someone. I'm still trying to get a read on ash. It matters, trust me.
I still think I made the right choice, and I still think ash is most likely to be scum.
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In a head-to-head bout, I think I have very little chance of survival against most players on f.ds. I generally survive as town by being more useful than many others. Here, I'd have to convince a mostly biased group to keep me alive, which won't happen.
What's annoying to me is I think you just assumed the worst of me right off the bat when I claimed, instead of at least giving me the benefit of the doubt. You have a fairly negative take on me (at least on occasion) and it hurts your ability to play well in games where we are both town, and gives you leeway to pursue my mislynch when you are scum.
Eevee, for example, starts from "I think town!ash makes this claim just as much as scum!ash, and I can definitely see how town!ash can believe this to be the right play" and works from there. You, Volt, don't do this. Neither do many others. You hop straight to "what us scum!ash up to now?" and don't deviate.
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Might be worth getting everyone else to commit to an opinion on me v. Volt. Everyone could post tvt, tvs, or svs.
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Eevee, for example, starts from "I think town!ash makes this claim just as much as scum!ash, and I can definitely see how town!ash can believe this to be the right play" and works from there. You, Volt, don't do this. Neither do many others. You hop straight to "what us scum!ash up to now?" and don't deviate.
Well, if you're town, I apologize, I got this one wrong, but I think it's more likely you're scum and this is AtE.
Might be worth getting everyone else to commit to an opinion on me v. Volt. Everyone could post tvt, tvs, or svs.
Absolutely agree with this.
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I still don't understand. It is either you or him, and you chose him. It doesn't matter now if you think he is scummy or not, confirmation bias is no longer relevant, unless you plan to self-vote [in a yuma game, might get you mod-killed!]. You are speaking as if you are not sure if he is town or scum, but wishing to be objective means you don't want him lynched if he is town.
You're forgetting the part where I'm a compulsive Gladiator and have to pick someone. I'm still trying to get a read on ash. It matters, trust me.
I still think I made the right choice, and I still think ash is most likely to be scum.
You realize a better way to use your role might have been to wait for a lynch to basically be decided, then claim and challenge that person, then we just lynch that person anyway? That would have taken out the risk, would have allowed town input into who we lynched, etc.
Or just claim and we all decide who you challenge.
There were more pro-town ways to do this.
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I still don't understand. It is either you or him, and you chose him. It doesn't matter now if you think he is scummy or not, confirmation bias is no longer relevant, unless you plan to self-vote [in a yuma game, might get you mod-killed!]. You are speaking as if you are not sure if he is town or scum, but wishing to be objective means you don't want him lynched if he is town.
You're forgetting the part where I'm a compulsive Gladiator and have to pick someone. I'm still trying to get a read on ash. It matters, trust me.
I still think I made the right choice, and I still think ash is most likely to be scum.
I get that before your choice you would want to make sure you didn't have confirmation bias going on. But post-challenge, I don't think you are suggesting we should lynch you if ash is town, which would be the only alternative. Town!Voltaire would fret internally about the responsibility of maybe having picked town, but not want town to join him with the result that he gets lynched instead. By sharing your doubt, you are encouraging that outcome. Scum!Voltaire would want to seem really towny, and would say towny things like "I don't want to have confirmation bias", but since that's not relevant, it looks fishy, as you say.
You say that we will find out later why it still matters. I think Voltaire should claim before ashersky.
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It is entirely possible I haven't played this ideally but this role has been done once on f.ds and it was a scum role, so there is absolutely nothing for me to consult beforehand.
I decided I absolutely did not want to crowdsource my challenge because then we run into the issue of (extra) scum manipulation. I decided the best route to go was to divide the day in half, basically, and create Day1.0 and Day1.5. We've got tons of reactions/interactions with more coming.
I'm certain others would have played the role differently. Some people think Vigs should always shoot for some reason.
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You say that we will find out later why it still matters. I think Voltaire should claim before ashersky.
If this turns out to be the consensus, absolutely.
Basically I am super shitty at cleverly withholding stuff. I have never figured out how to do it well and apparently never will.
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You realize a better way to use your role might have been to wait for a lynch to basically be decided, then claim and challenge that person, then we just lynch that person anyway? That would have taken out the risk, would have allowed town input into who we lynched, etc.
That would be really risky. One derphammer, or missed pre-deadline discussion and he's dead too.
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You realize a better way to use your role might have been to wait for a lynch to basically be decided, then claim and challenge that person, then we just lynch that person anyway? That would have taken out the risk, would have allowed town input into who we lynched, etc.
That would be really risky. One derphammer, or missed pre-deadline discussion and he's dead too.
Wait for L-1 would have been risky. Waiting for L-2 and some clear intent would not have been.
I was just pointing out that there were other, much more pro-town, ways to use the role (if he was town).
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Because I wanted to make sure I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias.
It doesn't contradict my challenging him because it's just for different reasons. Claim = fishy, a reason from an ongoing game I swear I will post the moment it ends, posts = scummy. I tried to weigh the first two more and throw away the third. Which is not entirely possible because I am human but eh.
I do appreciate that town is put in a strange claiming dilemma because of this. The nice thing is that I am already getting some reads on who I think is more likely to be scum even if I am wrong about ash. I assume if I am right about ash then his partner really has no choice but to vote me. It's a nifty new situation.
I think this is a fallacy, and sets up bad logic later on after I'm lynched (or even after Voltaire is lynched).
If a scum partner is going down from a gladiator challenge, there's no reason not to bus. I'm pretty sure Voltgloss's partners voted for him during the first challenge in LOTR2.
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I'm pretty sure Voltgloss's partners voted for him during the first challenge in LOTR2.
Did they? I honestly wasn't following that game closely.
But your argument is wrong. It assumes that it's "obvious" a scum partner is going down via gladiator.
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Townread on Voltaire after the Gladiator claim and the following discussion.
He seems sincere and consistent in what I read from him.
Ashersky seems like a logical traget. At least thats who I would have chosen had I been a gladiator.
Speaking of Ashersky. I think he have a decent chance of flipping scum. Much higher than Voltaire.
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I'm interested to see a confirmation of Volt's role, still. Guessing yuma is still on shift.
X, you are incredibly wrong. Even from an objective perspective, the gladiator claim is more likely to be scum than the misdirection role is.
Anyone think of a gladiator flavor role? Remember, flavor is EXPLICITLY linked to role, per the mod posts. I've not seen the show, but I'm pretty sure it isn't set in ancient Rome.
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I consider Gladiator a scum role in a game with more scum. In a 9P game I don't think it'd be included since we're looking at a likely two man scum team. And like faust said, that gives scum at least a 50/50 chance of one of their members dying Day 1. Also, if Volt is scum, I think he'd target someone who isn't a claimed negative utility.
So yeah. Voltaire is my highest Town Read through this, and ash was already my highest Scum Read. So this whole thing is actually a-ok with me.
I'm also 99% (Real Statistic) sure Voltaire isn't lying about being a Gladiator. That is just not something he'd do, even though it'd be a really clever plan as Town to generate reads.
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svs? is there anyone who would possibly think this? (Voltaire: Let me just ensure that the town can only lynch me or my partner)
No, I think it's tvs and I think ash is the scumster.
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I look forward to you all being wrong when I flip. That's the only joy I can get out of being mislynched. Literally, everyone being so terribly wrong.
What's painful though, is sitting in the spectator queue, watching everyone just giving Voltaire a ridiculous town pass even when you are all told by the mod in bolded letters that I was town.
This is basically a daykill for scum.
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If its svs, it's brilliant. But I think more likely it is tvs with Volt being Town.
If ash does flip Town, it doesn't really make Voltaire too much scummier from my perspective. Because at worst, he eliminated a negative utility.
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If its svs, it's brilliant. But I think more likely it is tvs with Volt being Town.
If ash does flip Town, it doesn't really make Voltaire too much scummier from my perspective. Because at worst, he eliminated a negative utility.
Um, no. At worst, he's scum.
Does no one get this? AT WORST, VOLTAIRE IS SCUM.
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I have no real problem dying, other than I wanted to play longer, and I'd rather scum die.
If this is tvt, Voltaire is even MORE negative utility than I am, since he's compulsively killing town.
I'll say that again: he is compulsively killing town. Once I flip, you will know that I am not lying.
So, once I flip, please understand that on Day 2, when you are looking at the known actions of players, Voltaire decided to kill town.
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I mean, you'll all just ignore me until I flip, and you see I am town, but please, re-read after that happens.
Voltaire unilaterally decided to force town to kill a townie who had claimed for pro-town reasons.
Voltaire has provided zero evidence that he is town, nor has he done anything towny. In fact, he's done anti-town things like continuing to refuse to provide his "case" on me all day, and forcing town to kill a towny unilaterally.
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So, Voltaire is either horribly wrong and misguided but town, or the much simpler and more likely scum.
How likely is it Voltaire gets it this wrong? He just modded my last scum game. We were scum together the game before that. Do you honestly expect Voltaire to be so extremely wrong about me now?
I will say that again: in my last two scum games, Voltaire was my partner and my mod.
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I mean, you'll all just ignore me until I flip, and you see I am town, but please, re-read after that happens.
Voltaire unilaterally decided to force town to kill a townie who had claimed for pro-town reasons.
Voltaire has provided zero evidence that he is town, nor has he done anything towny. In fact, he's done anti-town things like continuing to refuse to provide his "case" on me all day, and forcing town to kill a towny unilaterally.
So, Voltaire is either horribly wrong and misguided but town, or the much simpler and more likely scum.
How likely is it Voltaire gets it this wrong? He just modded my last scum game. We were scum together the game before that. Do you honestly expect Voltaire to be so extremely wrong about me now?
I will say that again: in my last two scum games, Voltaire was my partner and my mod.
Noted.
Now, Vote: Ashersky
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As long as you all go back and re-read once you know I'm town, I'm cool. I'll just post what I think are important thoughts so that they are available, including final reads.
Irony here is, we still have zero confirmation that Voltaire is what he says. Like, I can write dayvig: xeiron and act like I'm a dayvig, but unless xeiron dies, it's meaningless. Then I could claim "oh, it's delayed, he'll die on D3" and what, you'll believe me? Nope.
And so sits scum!Voltaire.
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I'm leaning misguided-as-always town!Archetype.
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If its svs, it's brilliant. But I think more likely it is tvs with Volt being Town.
If ash does flip Town, it doesn't really make Voltaire too much scummier from my perspective. Because at worst, he eliminated a negative utility.
Um, no. At worst, he's scum.
Does no one get this? AT WORST, VOLTAIRE IS SCUM.
Actually, at worst you would also have to eat a bunch of cockroach alphabet snacks.
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Thread Locked Momentarily
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The Vote Count has been reset. Ashersky has been challenged by Voltaire. Today's lynch must be either Voltaire or ashersky
Vote Count 1.4
Not Voting (9): ashersky, Walrus, Archetype, xeiron, jotheonah, EFHW, Voltaire, faust, Eevee
Thread is Unlocked and the Day1 deadline remains the same.
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Do folks care who full claims first? EFHW seemed to want Voltaire first.
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vote: voltaire
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Mod: what happens if lynch hasn't been reached at the deadline? Most votes? Gladiator auto-dies?
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The grand irony in all of this is that I claimed to say I wouldn't use my power at night, and partially because of that I don't get to live to a night to not use it.
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Mod: what happens if lynch hasn't been reached at the deadline? Most votes? Gladiator auto-dies?
If a lynch is not reached at deadline the player with the most votes will be lynched. If the votes are tied a lynch will be randomized using the f.ds number generator among the two players up for a lynch.
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Vote: ashersky
I suggest ash claim first. He was challenged, after all.
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My claim and Volt's claim have nothing in common, other than both happening to be vehemently anti-town, that I don't think claim order matters.
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My claim and Volt's claim have nothing in common, other than both happening to be vehemently anti-town, that I don't think claim order matters.
Then go ahead and claim. :D
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I'm a secondary character from the show, name is Lucille Austero. My role is a yuma-modified re-director. I can target a player at night and redirect actions taken by that player. Two restrictions to this role added by yuma:
1) I cannot redirect kills.
2) I can only redirect actions to me, or back at the targeter.
For reason #1 above, I decided to claim and not use my power. Had I been able to redirect kills, I could basically work as a DoctorVig, reflecting scum kills back at the killer. Or, I could have been a Bodyguard, taking the kill for someone. Neither was an option.
For reason #2 above, I decided to claim and not use my power. Imagine I redirect a cop's investigation from scum to me. Cop gets "town" result and scum is cleared. I'm like a Godfatherer on accident. Imagine I take a doctor's protection away from the night kill. I just roleblocked the doctor. Imagine I messed with tracker/watcher/etc. results. So much negative utility.
I couldn't come up with a good result from any redirection I could cause, so I decided not to redirect at all.
If it matters, yuma called his modifications vertigo, making me a Vertigo Re-director.
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That's really funny flavor wise. Considering ash supposedly hasn't seen the show, I don't think he's lying about being a "Vertigo Redirector", but could be Town or Scum. Unvote.
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I'm eager to hear Voltaire's full claim and his explanation for using his power so brashly. I'm coming around to ash's side on this.
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Voltaire is way too smart to play this role like this. I mean, if he was a scum forced claim gladiator, you'd think he'd give the fake claim some thought?
My read is this is town on town, but I definitely did Voltaire did us a huge disservice if he is town. So so many better ways to play the role, but I guess I'm alone in thinking Ash was the nut worst choice..
Ash's role claim looks a bit weird, but ok. I think I'll be wanting to lynch Voltaire anyways, waiting for his claim.
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If its svs, it's brilliant. But I think more likely it is tvs with Volt being Town.
If ash does flip Town, it doesn't really make Voltaire too much scummier from my perspective. Because at worst, he eliminated a negative utility.
Um, no. At worst, he's scum.
Does no one get this? AT WORST, VOLTAIRE IS SCUM.
Actually, at worst you would also have to eat a bunch of cockroach alphabet snacks.
Also, nice.
Is eating cockroach alphabits worse than killing a member of town? I'd say if the Fear Factor contestants can do it for a chance at cash, we can do it to save our fellow townies!
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vote: ashersky
I'm eager to hear Voltaire's full claim and his explanation for using his power so brashly. I'm coming around to ash's side on this.
I am also a secondary character - Barry Zuckercorn, Attorney Gladiator. I'm not a very good lawyer. I have to challenge someone D1 (I AM COMPULSIVE, people who are saying this was anti-town! That's the point), and we're the only ones who can be lynched. The twist is that the winner gets the loser's role. If I win, I'll have ash's role and no longer be a gladiator. If he wins, he'll become a Gladiator. So there's your twist.
This is why I said it matters if I think ash is town, in that if we're both town we'd want to pick which role we want to still have in the game. But there's no way in hell at this point we shouldn't lynch ash.
I agree his role and flavor claims match so that's definitely his real role, and makes complete sense to claim as scum, be a VT, all that jazz.
Ash, your problems appear to be with the fact that I am a Gladiator and not with my play. This makes me more confident I got this right.
Biggest town read right now is jotheonah.
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My read is this is town on town, but I definitely did Voltaire did us a huge disservice if he is town. So so many better ways to play the role, but I guess I'm alone in thinking Ash was the nut worst choice..
It was compulsive!!!
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My read is this is town on town, but I definitely did Voltaire did us a huge disservice if he is town. So so many better ways to play the role, but I guess I'm alone in thinking Ash was the nut worst choice..
It was compulsive!!!
So many things you could have done differently, just surprising us like this wasn't the only option.
Vote: Voltaire
Again, I think both are town more often than not.
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I agree his role and flavor claims match so that's definitely his real role, and makes complete sense to claim as scum, be a VT, all that jazz.
Are you saying that my role is my real scum role? Because that makes zero sense. Unless you are saying I'm like a bus driver who changed it up to fake claim it in a towny way?
The twist is that the winner gets the loser's role. If I win, I'll have ash's role and no longer be a gladiator. If he wins, he'll become a Gladiator. So there's your twist.
So, if I am scum, as you say, you become scum? Or you get a scum role, like Godfather or Bus Driver or Roleblocker?
Also, this is a great "twist" for scum to add on to make it more likely they survive this gladiator battle.
Ash, your problems appear to be with the fact that I am a Gladiator and not with my play. This makes me more confident I got this right.
Nice lie, dude. I've complained about your play since BEFORE you claimed. Your whole "I have reasons but won't share them" crap. Which, by the way, you STILL have not shared with the class.
You are clearly a gladiator, as the mod confirmed it. I think you are a scum gladiator.
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It wasn't the only option, but it's certainly the best option that's been presented here!
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I agree his role and flavor claims match so that's definitely his real role, and makes complete sense to claim as scum, be a VT, all that jazz.
Are you saying that my role is my real scum role? Because that makes zero sense. Unless you are saying I'm like a bus driver who changed it up to fake claim it in a towny way?
The twist is that the winner gets the loser's role. If I win, I'll have ash's role and no longer be a gladiator. If he wins, he'll become a Gladiator. So there's your twist.
So, if I am scum, as you say, you become scum? Or you get a scum role, like Godfather or Bus Driver or Roleblocker?
Also, this is a great "twist" for scum to add on to make it more likely they survive this gladiator battle.
Ash, your problems appear to be with the fact that I am a Gladiator and not with my play. This makes me more confident I got this right.
Nice lie, dude. I've complained about your play since BEFORE you claimed. Your whole "I have reasons but won't share them" crap. Which, by the way, you STILL have not shared with the class.
You are clearly a gladiator, as the mod confirmed it. I think you are a scum gladiator.
No, role, not alignment.
I'm saying your flavor is a character with Vertigo who stumbles around everywhere and gets confused. So redirector/busdriver/whatever makes complete sense. And I think you're scum, and your role fits scum.
I'm not stating my reads-based reason because it would violate the policy regarding ongoing games. No dice.
I made it very clear there was a twist to my role from the beginning. "Nice try" as you would say.
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Again, I think both are town more often than not.
Sadly, it is possible that Voltaire is just incorrect town. He let his asherbias get in the way of his brain.
You said it early -- scum!Voltaire probably doesn't derp his Gladiator role like this today. But then again, if he's scum, he's lying about some part of his role.
All that is confirmed is that Voltaire is a gladiator who challenged me on Day 1. What is NOT confirmed is:
--the compulsory or not nature of the role
--the "magic twist" of role/alignment switches (which would be bastard)
Does anyone know if a role stealing gladiator makes sense for Barry Zuckercorn?
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Also, more confirmed things about Voltaire:
--he unilaterally decided who town had to kill today
--he gave no warning when he decided who town has to kill today
--he is in no way confirmed town or an innocent child
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Also, more confirmed things about Voltaire:
--he unilaterally decided who town had to kill today
Do. You. Not. Know. What. Compulsive. Means.
Look, I get you can't read my PM. You have to take my word on it. If you're town, you have to get that.
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Vote Count 1.4
Voltaire (2): ashersky, Eevee
ashersky (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (6): Walrus, xeiron, jotheonah, EFHW, faust, Arch
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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I have to head out for the night. I'll be back tomorrow morning.
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Also, more confirmed things about Voltaire:
--he unilaterally decided who town had to kill today
Do. You. Not. Know. What. Compulsive. Means.
Look, I get you can't read my PM. You have to take my word on it. If you're town, you have to get that.
I know what compulsive means. I'm complaining that you didn't do what I did. You could have done this:
"Hey guys, I have a town that has severe anti-town implications. Problem is, it's compulsive, so we need to figure out how to minimize the damage. Here's the thing..."
And claimed, and talked it out, and whatever. Could very well have been that we all decided you should gladiate me anyway.
I do get your point that claiming and talking allows scum to manipulate more. But in the end, the decision would have been yours, and you could have said "well, I think ash is scum, so I'm throwing out his opinion, but listening to others."
So yes, if you role is compulsive, I get that you had no choice but to tell us who we would kill today. The problem I (and others) have is that you unilaterally did it in a surprise fashion.
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Vote: Voltaire
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Voltaire,
If you can aquire another role through winning the duel.
Why did you choose Ashersky, who had a self-proclaimed useless role?
Would it not be better to target someone with a good role?
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vote ashersky. I believe Voltaire more, and I don't find ashersky's arguments very convincing.
PPE: unvote
Dang, xeiron, just when I had made up my mind!
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Jumping up and down!
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Now I'm thinking its TvT, which really sucks. I had the same exact feeling as EFHW, until I read xeiron's post. Which makes me lean back to SvT, but this time with Voltaire as scum.
Not ready for voting at this point, but if Voltaire can give an adequate explanation for why he hose ash if he knew the prospects of his role, I'll end up voting for ash.
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I don't find ashersky's arguments very convincing.
Not sure what arguments you mean.
I'm happy to expand on stuff, or give opinions on whatever you'd like. I figure it's important to at least have an impact on the game as much as possible while I'm alive.
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Now I'm thinking its TvT, which really sucks. I had the same exact feeling as EFHW, until I read xeiron's post. Which makes me lean back to SvT, but this time with Voltaire as scum.
Not ready for voting at this point, but if Voltaire can give an adequate explanation for why he hose ash if he knew the prospects of his role, I'll end up voting for ash.
TvT would suck, yes. There is definitely value in discussing which T is better to kill in this case. I'd say we both have pretty terrible roles for town.
Voltaire, in the off chance that you are NOT lying, if I inherit your role, will I be forced to gladiate someone on D2? Or is it specifically a D1 compulsion?
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There are a couple of open questions to this:
1) ash, why did you claim instead of just keeping quiet?
2) Voltaire, how exactly does the role inheritage work? Does the surviving player receive the role of the dead player, losing his own? If so, is your role compulsive every Day or only D1?
3) As already pointed out, why target a role that is, if the claim was truthful, is useless?
4) Voltaire, what made you so sure that there cannot be a non-compulsive anti-town role?
Pending answers to these questions, here's what we could do:
Lynch ash. Voltaire becomes a redirector. We have him confirm his role somehow (can we do this? I think we can) Warning: Voltaire could lie about nothing but his alignment, thus earning him an anti-town role. In fact, if this is in fact his role, but he is scum, it makes a lot of sense to target ashersky.
Lynch Voltaire. ash becomes a Gladiator, losing his previous role (?). We can direct his Gladiating the following Days, gaining an easy method to confirm PR claims without losing them. (Challange them, ash survives, gaining their role)
I like the second option better, but will wait for answers.
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I don't find ashersky's arguments very convincing.
Not sure what arguments you mean.
I'm happy to expand on stuff, or give opinions on whatever you'd like. I figure it's important to at least have an impact on the game as much as possible while I'm alive.
I think Voltaire will be lynched.
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There are a couple of open questions to this:
1) ash, why did you claim instead of just keeping quiet?
2) Voltaire, how exactly does the role inheritage work? Does the surviving player receive the role of the dead player, losing his own? If so, is your role compulsive every Day or only D1?
3) As already pointed out, why target a role that is, if the claim was truthful, is useless?
4) Voltaire, what made you so sure that there cannot be a non-compulsive anti-town role?
Pending answers to these questions, here's what we could do:
Lynch ash. Voltaire becomes a redirector. We have him confirm his role somehow (can we do this? I think we can) Warning: Voltaire could lie about nothing but his alignment, thus earning him an anti-town role. In fact, if this is in fact his role, but he is scum, it makes a lot of sense to target ashersky.
Lynch Voltaire. ash becomes a Gladiator, losing his previous role (?). We can direct his Gladiating the following Days, gaining an easy method to confirm PR claims without losing them. (Challange them, ash survives, gaining their role)
I like the second option better, but will wait for answers.
It should not be difficult to confirm Voltaires new role.
If Ashesky flips scum, we pretty much know Voltaire is town, and we can trust his word. (I am ignoring the possibility of bot being scum)
If Ashersky flips town, we know Ashersky have told us the truth about his role.
What we have to watch out for is Voltaire being scum, and lying about the part that there will actually be an exchange of roles.
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what if scum!Voltaire wants the redirector role?
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I don't find ashersky's arguments very convincing.
Not sure what arguments you mean.
I'm happy to expand on stuff, or give opinions on whatever you'd like. I figure it's important to at least have an impact on the game as much as possible while I'm alive.
I looked on the wiki, and there is nothing about role switching being bastard. The actual role is not there. but the closest, which is absorber, is more extreme and is not bastard.
Also, I don't have a problem with when or how he announced his claim. Involving town in who to pick is the same as picking who to lynch, which is never easy and can easily go to deadline and then Voltaire is dead. His role is that he has to pick and he did.
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what if scum!Voltaire wants the redirector role?
In that case though, it would be really weird that he claimed this role switching.
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Voltaire,
If you can aquire another role through winning the duel.
Why did you choose Ashersky, who had a self-proclaimed useless role?
Would it not be better to target someone with a good role?
No. My goal is to get scum lynched.
I do see what you are saying, and I considered that, but that would require a massclaim of sorts. Otherwise I'm firing blindly, and I decided that was too big a risk.
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Voltaire, in the off chance that you are NOT lying, if I inherit your role, will I be forced to gladiate someone on D2? Or is it specifically a D1 compulsion?
You won't be forced. The compulsion was for D1, I checked with yuma before.
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2) Voltaire, how exactly does the role inheritage work? Does the surviving player receive the role of the dead player, losing his own? If so, is your role compulsive every Day or only D1?
3) As already pointed out, why target a role that is, if the claim was truthful, is useless?
4) Voltaire, what made you so sure that there cannot be a non-compulsive anti-town role?
Pending answers to these questions, here's what we could do:
Lynch ash. Voltaire becomes a redirector. We have him confirm his role somehow (can we do this? I think we can) Warning: Voltaire could lie about nothing but his alignment, thus earning him an anti-town role. In fact, if this is in fact his role, but he is scum, it makes a lot of sense to target ashersky.
Lynch Voltaire. ash becomes a Gladiator, losing his previous role (?). We can direct his Gladiating the following Days, gaining an easy method to confirm PR claims without losing them. (Challange them, ash survives, gaining their role)
I like the second option better, but will wait for answers.
Do not like this one bit. You realize you are setting up a plan to lynch lots of town players?
Also I think my previous posts covered the mechanics behind this, let me know if you still have questions.
That said I don't think scum is so bold...
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I think I have heard enough to vote: Voltaire now.
Here are the outcomes:
Voltaire is town/ash is town: We lose ash's anti-town role and get a role that might be useful later on.
Voltaire is scum/ash is town: That's good, for sure.
Voltaire is town/ash is scum: Ash loses whatever good scum role he had, and receives a role that scum doesn't want to use, but he has to use it to appear townie.
Voltaire is scum/ash is scum: One scum down.
It's mostly that a Voltaire mislynch is much better in my eyes than an ash mislynch, and I can't really tell who of them is more likely to be scum.
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What we have to watch out for is Voltaire being scum, and lying about the part that there will actually be an exchange of roles.
Actually, you don't have to trust that. If you're worried I'll remain a Gladiator, just lynch me the next time I challenge someone. Problem solved. (not that it will happen, but you know)
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What we have to watch out for is Voltaire being scum, and lying about the part that there will actually be an exchange of roles.
Actually, you don't have to trust that. If you're worried I'll remain a Gladiator, just lynch me the next time I challenge someone. Problem solved. (not that it will happen, but you know)
Of course we should lynch you if you challenge someone else.
But should we lynch you if you do not challenge someone else?
You said there ithe role is no longer compulsive after D1.
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Does this role switching affect the flip? Will we find out what the lynched person's role was?
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What we have to watch out for is Voltaire being scum, and lying about the part that there will actually be an exchange of roles.
Actually, you don't have to trust that. If you're worried I'll remain a Gladiator, just lynch me the next time I challenge someone. Problem solved. (not that it will happen, but you know)
Of course we should lynch you if you challenge someone else.
But should we lynch you if you do not challenge someone else?
You said there ithe role is no longer compulsive after D1.
It's not if I'm dead and it goes to someone else.
If I'm alive, it means its because I have someone else's role.
I'm totally game to proving this with ash's role if that's the route we go (if someone has a role that could confirm this).
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Does this role switching affect the flip? Will we find out what the lynched person's role was?
I would assume no, because we'll each have our original roles at the time one of us is lynched. But let me ask. I didn't think about that.
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I think this is town!Voltaire. I have no idea about ashersky. So back to vote: ashersky.
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Can we have a vote count?
I think Voltaire is at L-1 at the moment, but I'm not sure.
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It looks like I am indeed. That's small games for you. Here's what I have.
Vote Count 1.Voltaire
Voltaire (4): ashersky, Eevee, jotheonah, faust
ashersky (2): Voltaire, EFHW
Not Voting (3): Walrus, xeiron, Archetype
faust, what do you find townie about ashersky's actions/play so far?
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I go with Vote: Ashersky.
For basicly the same reason as EFHW.
I think Voltaire is town. I am leaning town on Ashersky as well, but I am more confident in the Voltaire read.
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faust, what do you find townie about ashersky's actions/play so far?
I find it hard to see the scum narrative for ashersky's claim. His claim is supported by Archetype, who says it's a good fit flavorwise (and I'm going to trust him there, as I don't know the first thing about the flavor). Now of course it is a scum role in appearance, but why would ashersky claim that?
Also I think the way he handled the accusations against him were townie, but that's more of a gut feel than anything else.
It's most likely from my point of view that this is TvT, and if it is, you are the better mislynch, sorry. Even if it isn't, mislynching you is less bad than mislynching ash.
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faust, what do you find townie about ashersky's actions/play so far?
I find it hard to see the scum narrative for ashersky's claim. His claim is supported by Archetype, who says it's a good fit flavorwise (and I'm going to trust him there, as I don't know the first thing about the flavor). Now of course it is a scum role in appearance, but why would ashersky claim that?
Also I think the way he handled the accusations against him were townie, but that's more of a gut feel than anything else.
It's most likely from my point of view that this is TvT, and if it is, you are the better mislynch, sorry. Even if it isn't, mislynching you is less bad than mislynching ash.
So you think gladiator is a better/more important role than redirector?
Why do you think so?
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So you think gladiator is a better/more important role than redirector?
Why do you think so?
Non-compulsive Gladiator with role inheritance means we can mislynch a PR and still have that PR around. Redirector who can't redirect kills does nothing for town, as ashersky already stated.
I guess I should say, there's something that makes ash's claim more believable to me, but I do not want to reveal it at this point.
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Question for the group, especially the tvt crowd:
If you were allowed to lynch anybody (not just ash or volt), who would you be voting for and why?
I'd like to get some things on record before end of day.
I'll say faust, mostly because I didn't like his vote on me earlier, his reasons for it, or his subsequent backpedalling from those reasons.
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Question for the group, especially the tvt crowd:
If you were allowed to lynch anybody (not just ash or volt), who would you be voting for and why?
I'd like to get some things on record before end of day.
I'll say faust, mostly because I didn't like his vote on me earlier, his reasons for it, or his subsequent backpedalling from those reasons.
I would probably go for faust as well. He does not feel quite right.
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@jotheonah: If I'm free to lynch anyone, it would probably be someone in the lurking area, like Archetype or Walrus.
Concerning Voltaire, I wanted to add that the claim that his role is compulsive D1 and only D1 doesn't sit right with me. As in, from a game design perspective, why would you do that?
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Concerning Voltaire, I wanted to add that the claim that his role is compulsive D1 and only D1 doesn't sit right with me. As in, from a game design perspective, why would you do that?
You'll have to ask yuma post-game, I'm assuming there's something in the setup overall where it makes sense. Also, if I win this challenge, the role disappears, so it's not like it was "compulsive only D1," it's just gone.
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So you think gladiator is a better/more important role than redirector?
Why do you think so?
Non-compulsive Gladiator with role inheritance means we can mislynch a PR and still have that PR around. Redirector who can't redirect kills does nothing for town, as ashersky already stated.
I guess I should say, there's something that makes ash's claim more believable to me, but I do not want to reveal it at this point.
That is a good point about the Gladiator. It can actually be a quite useful role that way.
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Question for the group, especially the tvt crowd:
If you were allowed to lynch anybody (not just ash or volt), who would you be voting for and why?
This is based on feelings, I can't back it up. I'd say Eevee or faust.
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Since the day could conceivably end soon, I want to mention that there is a passive part of my role that can have some negative utility to town if I am targeted by town overnight.
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Mmmm. Mm.
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Hey guys there is a terrible flu going around and I've got it. Struggling through work and I may spend much of the weekend asleep. But I'll post when I have the inclination.
Ok so:
TvT would obviously suck, and probably that's the most likely thing by raw probability. But of course I had scumreads on both of them before, and then there's the question about how the roles fit, and so forth.
So I'm feeling SvT I guess. SvS would be a hell of a thing wouldn't it? I'd have to applaud their gumption, and I wouldn't put it past scum!ash at least. But I think improbable.
After a quick reread I think I'm still leaning towards scum!Volt. His style does seem off, and I agree with others that it seems like he should have approached this in a more pro-town manner. And yeah, why go for stealing the professed anti-town role? Did he just think ash would be a viable mislynch, with a known rivalry? Couple this with his (as I see it) unusual behavior, and something doesn't add up for me.
Idk about ash. The fact that he claimed so early is still feeling scummy to me, as I do not wish to be wish to be hornswaggled again a la Time War. Since the challenge, some of his posts have had sort of an AtE feel to them...but I would have expected scum!ash to get more angry and hostile. He's defending himself of course, but here he just seems kind of sad and disappointed and hopeful he will live. It seems townier and more genuine to me.
The flavors do make sense to me. The vertigo thing in particular is hilarious.
Here's something that I found a little curious though: this is a 9p game. yuma mentions in the OP that there may be mechanics to make the game longer than we expect. Is this one of those mechanics though? Seems like it's speeding the game along, *especially* if the gladiator is a scum power. Maybe that makes me think this is more likely TvT, or scum!ash. Bah.
I was just wondering whether we should be discussing other people. Interesting how the gladiator role has the effect of narrowing the spotlight so sharply. I too have a bad feeling about faust that's not going away. And Arch is still lurking along. But obviously my focus has been elsewhere.
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Want to mention it is the weekend here so I have less access until Monday. I will keep up over the weekend, though.
I think the only question specifically for me was from Faust, asking why I claimed.
As mentioned, I really feel it was important to neutralize the misdirection mechanics built into the game when possibly, as they are not helpful for town. My role was particularly anti-town, so I figured there must be strong town roles I would counter. I don't want to.
I understand the point that I could have made these statements without claiming, but I think there would have been some suspicion of me that way, too. It could look like scum role fishing for example.
I decided admitting to the anti-town role was the best method.
@EFHW, alignment switching would have been bastard, I meant. Role stealing by itself isn't. Role stealing is sort of universal backup-ish.
I was voting Voltaire before the challenge, which I find interesting. As to joth's question, I'd probably be looking at joth, and then the quiet ones.
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Vote Count 1.5
Voltaire (4): ashersky, Eevee, jotheonah, faust
ashersky (3): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron
Not Voting (2): Walrus, Arch
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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unvote
Don't like having an L-1 right now. We've got time and things to discuss.
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Since the day could conceivably end soon, I want to mention that there is a passive part of my role that can have some negative utility to town if I am targeted by town overnight.
This reads scummy to me. I encourages town not to target you, and then, if you get targeted with an incriminating result, you can just say "The action got redirected"/"I am a Miller"/something else. Now it might be true of course, but I think in that case we'd be better of if you just claimed what negative utility you have.
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Also, what's with everyone stating "I have a bad feeling about faust"? You mean just because it's not possible to vote for me today, it's okay to throw around baseless suspicion on me? Well, it isn't. If you think I'm scummy, go and point out why, so I have a possibility to respond.
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Since the day could conceivably end soon, I want to mention that there is a passive part of my role that can have some negative utility to town if I am targeted by town overnight.
This reads scummy to me. I encourages town not to target you, and then, if you get targeted with an incriminating result, you can just say "The action got redirected"/"I am a Miller"/something else. Now it might be true of course, but I think in that case we'd be better of if you just claimed what negative utility you have.
It's scummy unless it's true, which it is. It's really ideally left as is, I can't add anything that would make it provable or useful. It's just a head's up to town, and if I do those other things then you can say I'm scum.
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Also, what's with everyone stating "I have a bad feeling about faust"? You mean just because it's not possible to vote for me today, it's okay to throw around baseless suspicion on me? Well, it isn't. If you think I'm scummy, go and point out why, so I have a possibility to respond.
I did point out why.
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Peering about with beady eyes
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I could probably go for Faust or X. But Xeiron can be really valuable later in these RMM games.
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Voltaire not picking a different target is really the only thing that's stopping me from voting for ashersky. However, after thinking about it a lot more I'm going to vote for ash.
Here's why:
- Scummy behavior: Since he claimed negative utility I've had a scumread on him. His claim seemed totally truthful, but that doesn't make him Town.
- Least Likely to Flip Scum: Power-wise, of course. I find it very unlikely that Yuma would make a Gladiator scum in this small of a game. Based on my power, I also think Voltaire is more likely to be Town.
- Inheritence Business: Goes along with the last one. I'm pretty sure Voltaire is Town and wouldn't use the power. Ash getting Gladiator wouldn't really do anything.
So I'm ready to vote, but will hold off for discussion.
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Unless someone else changes their mind, looks like it's on Walrus to decide. An unenviable position! (unless you are scum, I guess)
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Aw jeez. I'm in no condition health-wise for this level of responsibility!
I'll look at this more tomorrow when I'm hopefully less dilirious.
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Also, what's with everyone stating "I have a bad feeling about faust"? You mean just because it's not possible to vote for me today, it's okay to throw around baseless suspicion on me? Well, it isn't. If you think I'm scummy, go and point out why, so I have a possibility to respond.
It is only a feeling,baseless sucpicion if you want, not a case.
There is not really much point out for you to respond on. And you do not really have to respond as you will not be lynched today.
I think it is very interesting that I am not the only one with that bad feeling about you.
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Aw jeez. I'm in no condition health-wise for this level of responsibility!
I'll look at this more tomorrow when I'm hopefully less dilirious.
If you have any questions/issues please please please give me a chance to address them before voting.
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Well I'm alive at least. Barely.
I was leaning towards Voltaire before. But the more I think about it, the more I doubt myself. Honestly, the more it looks like TvT, which is annoying.
Volt's behavior seemed weird to me at the beginning, but on a reread it seems understandable given that he had this weird, game-warping thing to reveal. His semi-desperate, "please don't lynch me" attitude since the claim reminds me of when it came down to me vs. him in Game of Thrones, when both of us were town.
Here's a question for you Volt: I still don't understand why you didn't claim and allow the target to be decided democratically. Using your power in this fashion is akin to a vig or SK, I guess, in that it allows a single player to influence who dies in a serious way. Did you think your judgment was better without collective input?
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a compulsive gladiator as a scum role. It doesn't exactly make sense as a town role either, but it makes *more* sense--it just seems so weird if scum were forced to be out in the open like that, especially in a game of this size.
ash's claim at the beginning still doesn't sit right with me. I think his behavior has been towny but with ash it's hard to tell. So I hope I'm not being forced to choose between one mislynch or another.
faust, to answer your question it's mostly just a gut feeling, as others have said. My attention has been elsewhere obviously as you are not a lynch candidate today, so you'll get more focused rereads later. If I had to pin it down I'd say that in previous games I suspected you for being more talkative than I expected at the beginning of the game, and you turned out as town, but now you are quieter than I expected, so I suspect you based on updated Bayesian reasoning.
I will think and sleep more before I vote. My brain is still pretty foggy. It's kind of weird being the tiebreaker here, almost as if I were the third party targeted by the gladiator event.
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a compulsive gladiator as a scum role. It doesn't exactly make sense as a town role either, but it makes *more* sense--it just seems so weird if scum were forced to be out in the open like that, especially in a game of this size.
I've mentioned before, but if you are going to have a scum gladiator, it basically must be compulsive, or scum just won't use the power. If you check out LOTR2, you'll see it in use there (compulsive once on D1 or D2, non-compulsive after that). It's basically how Voltaire's role sounds now, almost a copy. So it's very possible that he's a scum gladiator (from a setup perspective, at least).
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ash's claim at the beginning still doesn't sit right with me. I think his behavior has been towny but with ash it's hard to tell. So I hope I'm not being forced to choose between one mislynch or another.
A few people have said this, that my early claim is off-putting. I get that I just recently did this as scum, and that would definitely affect how folks view the claim.
I actually think Voltaire's actions without claim is the perfect support for why I claimed the way I did. I have an anti-town power; I claimed and urged others not to use their anti-town powers if they have them. Voltaire, on the other hand, has an anti-town power, but he unilaterally used it without discussion. (I get that it may be compulsive, but you could have used it later in the day, after discussion.)
I claimed how and when I did because I felt yuma built in misdirection as a major component of night actions in this RMM game. I claimed to directly counter that mechanic, which is sort of lame for yuma's plans but I believe is best for town's chances.
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vote: voltaire
He's the only option, and the only other voters have posted their thoughts and I'm fairly confident they won't derphammer.
I'm assuming Arch won't be swayed, so that does make it basically L-1 on both of us with Walrus to decide.
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a compulsive gladiator as a scum role. It doesn't exactly make sense as a town role either, but it makes *more* sense--it just seems so weird if scum were forced to be out in the open like that, especially in a game of this size.
I've mentioned before, but if you are going to have a scum gladiator, it basically must be compulsive, or scum just won't use the power. If you check out LOTR2, you'll see it in use there (compulsive once on D1 or D2, non-compulsive after that). It's basically how Voltaire's role sounds now, almost a copy. So it's very possible that he's a scum gladiator (from a setup perspective, at least).
You're still overlooking the fact that this is a 9 player game, not 13.
Have we discussed a no lynch?
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a compulsive gladiator as a scum role. It doesn't exactly make sense as a town role either, but it makes *more* sense--it just seems so weird if scum were forced to be out in the open like that, especially in a game of this size.
I've mentioned before, but if you are going to have a scum gladiator, it basically must be compulsive, or scum just won't use the power. If you check out LOTR2, you'll see it in use there (compulsive once on D1 or D2, non-compulsive after that). It's basically how Voltaire's role sounds now, almost a copy. So it's very possible that he's a scum gladiator (from a setup perspective, at least).
You're still overlooking the fact that this is a 9 player game, not 13.
Have we discussed a no lynch?
I asked yuma already. He said the one with more votes dies, if there's a tie it's random. No lynch is not an option.
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You're still overlooking the fact that this is a 9 player game, not 13.
I'm not overlooking it. If yuma put in a gladiator (or either alignment) in a 9-player game, he planned for it. The role stealing thing is pretty cool, if it's real. It's also great for scum, if it's real.
If he put in a compulsive gladiator in a 9-player game, I think scum is more likely than not, as it's easy to make the argument that "it's too crazy to make scum a compulsive gladiator in a small game!" and just argue his way to surviving.
I'm just looking at things from a mod/game designer perspective. 9-player games are hard to balance (I know, I'm trying to perfect Dune Mafia still) when you are trying to make it RMM.
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Vote Count 1.6
Voltaire (4): Eevee, jotheonah, faust, ashersky
ashersky (3): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron
Not Voting (2): Walrus, Arch
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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I feel very confident that this is town!Voltaire. And being less sure of ashersky's alignment is important for two reasons. 1. I don't want to kill town if it can be prevented. And 2. if Voltaire is lynched then there is the chance his role falls into mafia hands. I don't know if ash is scum, I'd say 60/40 he's town, but if these are our choices I think he is the better lynch.
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Arch can you put your vote back? If the others are going to put Voltaire at L-1, then ashersky should be too.
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I feel very confident that this is town!Voltaire.
Can I ask why? I'd say he seems more like my partner from Chocolate Factory than any town game he's played recently.
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Arch can you put your vote back? If the others are going to put Voltaire at L-1, then ashersky should be too.
Unless you've had a change of heart, of course.
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Just the spontaneity of his posts. He sounds like GofT Voltaire to me.
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Just the spontaneity of his posts. He sounds like GofT Voltaire to me.
I feel like most of his posts were NOT spontaneous. Like, they were very, very deliberate, in fact. The whole voting for me without giving reasons on purpose and such. That was very deliberate.
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Vote:ashersky
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Vote Count 1.ash
Voltaire (4): ashersky, Eevee, jotheonah, faust
ashersky (4): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron, Archetype
Not Voting (1): Walrus
Here's the vote count, I think, in the "true" order of votes. That is, I moved myself back to the beginning of Voltaire's wagon, as I unvoted to avoid L-1 over the weekend, but I was on him from the very beginning, and he was the only person I've voted for all game.
I think wagon analysis will actually help here. Voltaire's scum partner is likely voting me, I think. Unless enough townies are incorrect about me that he can safely bus. Of the ashersky voters, I'd actually rank their scumminess in the order of the votes placed. For Voltaire voters, the inverse (so faust is scummiest, down to Eevee).
Not sure how much use that is, but figured it would be good to get reads down.
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A full popsquiz from me:
Scumread: Voltaire
Possible scumread: EFHW/xeiron/faust/joth
Possible town reads: Archetype/Eevee/Walrus
Town: ashersky
Hmmm...so that isn't so helpful. Of my three possible town reads, I'd rate Arch as towniest, then Walrus, then Eevee as sort of middling.
Of my "possible scum" reads, I'd go EFHW, xeiron, faust, joth from least to most scummy.
So that's on record. I'd suggest Voltaire do the same. Popsquizzes from everyone would be nice, but I think Voltaire at least should be required.
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of a compulsive gladiator as a scum role. It doesn't exactly make sense as a town role either, but it makes *more* sense--it just seems so weird if scum were forced to be out in the open like that, especially in a game of this size.
I've mentioned before, but if you are going to have a scum gladiator, it basically must be compulsive, or scum just won't use the power. If you check out LOTR2, you'll see it in use there (compulsive once on D1 or D2, non-compulsive after that). It's basically how Voltaire's role sounds now, almost a copy. So it's very possible that he's a scum gladiator (from a setup perspective, at least).
I don't think that's necessarily true. If the Gladiator can gain other powers the way Voltaire described it, then scum might want to use it even if it wasn't compulsive.
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I feel very confident that this is town!Voltaire. And being less sure of ashersky's alignment is important for two reasons. 1. I don't want to kill town if it can be prevented. And 2. if Voltaire is lynched then there is the chance his role falls into mafia hands. I don't know if ash is scum, I'd say 60/40 he's town, but if these are our choices I think he is the better lynch.
You point 2 is absolutely not a reason to vote ashersky, but a reason to vote Voltaire! It is not a bad thing if Voltaire's role falls into town hands because that would mean that scum trades in their PR (if it's ashersky, then likely Redirector - his claim is probably true regardless of alignment) for a role that does nothing for them expect increase their chances to be lynched. OTOH, if Voltaire is scum and we don't lynch him, the scum team will now have a Redirector at use.
EFHW's defense of Voltaire is so fishy, it doesn't sit right with me, even if he flips town.
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Also, what's with everyone stating "I have a bad feeling about faust"? You mean just because it's not possible to vote for me today, it's okay to throw around baseless suspicion on me? Well, it isn't. If you think I'm scummy, go and point out why, so I have a possibility to respond.
I did point out why.
That's right, sorry, then, my post was not directed at you. But none of the other players vocing suspicion on me has pointed out why.
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Arch can you put your vote back? If the others are going to put Voltaire at L-1, then ashersky should be too.
Also, this. Can't you have Archetype decide on his own when's a good time to vote, and for whom?
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I will think and sleep more before I vote. My brain is still pretty foggy. It's kind of weird being the tiebreaker here, almost as if I were the third party targeted by the gladiator event.
Third Party slip!!!
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So it seems that I am the one to convince Walrus to vote Voltaire now. That's tough considering how he has a scumread on me. Eevee, jotheonah, you might want to get in here.
But think about this: ashersky claimed a role that makes much sense flavorwise. It's arguably true that he has that role. Now why in all the world would scum inform us that they are a Redirector? All the misleading potential of that role is nullified with the claim. I do not see a strong scum narrative for what ashersky did here.
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Doing the popsquiz now:
Scumread: EFHW
Slight scumread: Voltaire, Archetype
Null: xeiron
Slight townread: Walrus, jotheonah
Townread: ashersky, Eevee
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That's pending on the flip we get of course.
town!Voltaire: xeiron gets townier a bit, Walrus gets scummier a bit if he hammered
scum!Voltaire: jotheonah gets townier, Walrus gets a lot townier if he hammered, xeiron gets a little scummier
town!ashersky: Eevee get a little less townie, Voltaire gets scummier, Walrus gets scummier if he hammered
scum!ashersky: All on the ashersky wagon get townier (especially EFHW and Voltaire), jotheonah gets scummier
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Popquiz.
Slight scum: Jotheonah, faust, Archetype.
Null: Ashersky
Slight town: Eevee, EFHW, Walrus, Voltaire.
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More certain ash is scum. Unfortunately the reasons relate to an ongoing game.
Just noticed this. You realize I'm not in any ongoing games?
Yes you are.
What? If so, I've been lurking for weeks. And didnt know I was signed up.
Dynasty Warriors 2. We're both dead in it.
Dynasty warriors 2 is over.
Voltaire, can you elaborate on your scumread on Ashersky now?
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I feel very confident that this is town!Voltaire. And being less sure of ashersky's alignment is important for two reasons. 1. I don't want to kill town if it can be prevented. And 2. if Voltaire is lynched then there is the chance his role falls into mafia hands. I don't know if ash is scum, I'd say 60/40 he's town, but if these are our choices I think he is the better lynch.
You point 2 is absolutely not a reason to vote ashersky, but a reason to vote Voltaire! It is not a bad thing if Voltaire's role falls into town hands because that would mean that scum trades in their PR (if it's ashersky, then likely Redirector - his claim is probably true regardless of alignment) for a role that does nothing for them expect increase their chances to be lynched. OTOH, if Voltaire is scum and we don't lynch him, the scum team will now have a Redirector at use.
you missed my point. I think Voltaire is town. I am not worried about him getting ashersky's power.
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Arch can you put your vote back? If the others are going to put Voltaire at L-1, then ashersky should be too.
Also, this. Can't you have Archetype decide on his own when's a good time to vote, and for whom?
It was a polite request. He was free to say no.
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Stares at his feet and mutters under his breath
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I feel very confident that this is town!Voltaire. And being less sure of ashersky's alignment is important for two reasons. 1. I don't want to kill town if it can be prevented. And 2. if Voltaire is lynched then there is the chance his role falls into mafia hands. I don't know if ash is scum, I'd say 60/40 he's town, but if these are our choices I think he is the better lynch.
You point 2 is absolutely not a reason to vote ashersky, but a reason to vote Voltaire! It is not a bad thing if Voltaire's role falls into town hands because that would mean that scum trades in their PR (if it's ashersky, then likely Redirector - his claim is probably true regardless of alignment) for a role that does nothing for them expect increase their chances to be lynched. OTOH, if Voltaire is scum and we don't lynch him, the scum team will now have a Redirector at use.
you missed my point. I think Voltaire is town. I am not worried about him getting ashersky's power.
Right then, what was your point?
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Also EFHW, how on earth can you be so sure about someone's alignment D1?
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Also EFHW, how on earth can you be so sure about someone's alignment D1?
I'm not sure. It's certainly not typical of me. But there it is, I feel like Voltaire is town. Not that his actions have been towny or not, but that his posts feel like town!Voltaire to me.
My point that you missed was nothing more than what I already said - that I'm more worried about ashersky than Voltaire being scum. Your example was for all things being equal, ashersky's power is more dangerous, and I was saying all things are not equal because I am more sure of Voltaire than ashersky.
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I do see what you are saying, though, that ashersky having the gladiator role is not that dangerous for town, since ashersky has enough suspicion on him that he is just as or more likely to get lynched than the person he picks.
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I'm surprised at how quiet Jotheonah has been. He was so active in the last game I played with him. Eevee seems to have dropped into the background as well.
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Voltaire moved the center of attention to him and ash.. and I think it's pretty well known I think both are town.
I'd lynch out of the pool of background players if I could, but Voltaire and ashersky both being town are my strongest reads easily.
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So, to players voting for ashersky, I'm hoping you could answer me some questions.
Voltaire not picking a different target is really the only thing that's stopping me from voting for ashersky. However, after thinking about it a lot more I'm going to vote for ash.
Here's why:
- Scummy behavior: Since he claimed negative utility I've had a scumread on him. His claim seemed totally truthful, but that doesn't make him Town.
What exactly about ashersky's behaviour does make you think he's scum?
- Least Likely to Flip Scum: Power-wise, of course. I find it very unlikely that Yuma would make a Gladiator scum in this small of a game. Based on my power, I also think Voltaire is more likely to be Town.
I wonder how your power would indicate Voltaire's alignment. But if you don't want to reveal that, fine. Just let me ask: Why shouldn't there be a scum Gladiator in this game? For all we know, Voltaire could be lying about the exact nature of his role (i.e. it could not be compulsive).
- Inheritence Business: Goes along with the last one. I'm pretty sure Voltaire is Town and wouldn't use the power. Ash getting Gladiator wouldn't really do anything.
That's not a reason to vote ashersky at all. You're saying it doesn't matter who gets which power, so there's no reason why this would make you prefer an ashersky lynch. And again, what makes you so sure that Voltaire is town?
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I go with Vote: Ashersky.
For basicly the same reason as EFHW.
I think Voltaire is town. I am leaning town on Ashersky as well, but I am more confident in the Voltaire read.
What makes you believe that Voltaire is town? Are you still considering switching your vote?
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I'm surprised at how quiet Jotheonah has been. He was so active in the last game I played with him. Eevee seems to have dropped into the background as well.
A couple of different reasons for that, some IRL.
Ok. Everyone seems to have a scummy read on faust. But faust is vehemently arguing against an ash lynch. So, if faust is scum, we should lynch ash, right? But people who find faust scummy (myself included) are voting Voltaire.
I think faust's advocacy is really important, because he's the only one who seems to have a strong opinion about this challenge one way or another -- he seems to be arguing with a suspicious amount of conviction, which to me says scum pair (or town neighbors, I guess?)
So I'm thinking about switching votes here. But I'm weary of calling teams day one, of course.
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Fine, I'll reveal the reason why I think ashersky is town.
I am Tony Wonder, Magic Bodyguarder.
Each night, I can act as a Bodyguard, saving a player from a night kill. Or I can force someone to bodyguard me. That way, if I would die that night, they die instead.
Now what does this have to do with ashersky, you ask? Easy:
ashersky can redirect everything but kills to him and from him. I, on the other hand, can redirect kills to me or from me. So ashersky's role mirrors my role in a neat way, and thus I think he is also town.
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three claims and no actual Bluths? For reference, there are 9 actual Bluth family members, 11 if you count Oscar and Annyong. So this I find suspicious. I f I were designing a 9-player Arested Development mafia game, I would probably include the 9 Bluths, vis a vis:
Lucille Bluth
George Sr.
Michael
Gob
Buster
Lindsay
Tobias
George Michael
Maibe
So, without saying anything about my own role flavor, I have to wonder if one or more of these claims isn't a fake claim. Or if there's just some weird mod-trolling here.
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Voltaire's scum partner is likely voting me, I think. Unless enough townies are incorrect about me that he can safely bus. Of the ashersky voters, I'd actually rank their scumminess in the order of the votes placed. For Voltaire voters, the inverse (so faust is scummiest, down to Eevee).
I thought you said the opposite of this earlier?
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I'd suggest Voltaire do the same. Popsquizzes from everyone would be nice, but I think Voltaire at least should be required.
Agreed. This is all assuming I am right about ash.
Townish: xeiron, jotheonah
Null: Eevee, Archetype, EFHW, Walrus
Scumish: faust
Scum: ash
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Voltaire, can you elaborate on your scumread on Ashersky now?
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I didn't even realize this had happened.
Remember how ash furiously went 100% insane that faust was scum over faust's "ash is the best mislynch" comment, and ash turned out to be town? Well, someone did this in that game and ash went "Hmm, ok, I disagree"
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And by "that game" I mean in this game, I forget who it was.
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Voltaire, can you elaborate on your scumread on Ashersky now?
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I didn't even realize this had happened.
Remember how ash furiously went 100% insane that faust was scum over faust's "ash is the best mislynch" comment, and ash turned out to be town? Well, someone did this in that game and ash went "Hmm, ok, I disagree"
Do you remember how I was town that game? Maybe this caused ash to reconsider his convictions. Also, where did this happen?
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OK, just got to faust's claim. Honestly, at this point, I don't know what to think. Because faust thinks ash is town for mostly the same reason I think ash is scum (speculation based on our own roles).
I think think think this means ash and faust can't be partners, as I don't see faust defending his partner so strongly on D1. If that were the case, why claim a role, why not just keep trying to convince Walrus to vote me, which it seems he is likely to do?
So actually I guess that means faust is more likely town right now.
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faust do you actually think Voltaire is scum? Because earlier you said that you didn't think scum!Voltaire would have mentioned the role-switching thing if he wanted ash's redirector role, and later you said scum would want the redirector role.
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faust do you actually think Voltaire is scum? Because earlier you said that you didn't think scum!Voltaire would have mentioned the role-switching thing if he wanted ash's redirector role, and later you said scum would want the redirector role.
I think Voltaire is more likely scum than ashersky, but most likely both are town.
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Found it. It was jotheonah, and ash reacted way more normally. In fact I think both ash and I have a town read on joth?
I like this, actually. Town buddying is a classic fuzzy tactic, IIRC from before my hiatus.
But I'm apt to leave my vote where it is right now, because Eevee's PR, if town, could be anything, whereas Ash's PR, if town, is admittedly negative utility. Being as it's day 1, I'd rather champion the low-risk lynch.
Why would you champion a mislynch on purpose, though? Wouldn't you prefer to look for scum?
I mean, if I'm lynched, it's definitely okay for town, as far as relative powers go. I'm not so okay with it though, given I'm town, and I really don't want to be out of my only game so fast.
Has everyone posted that's in this game?
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Does this support or contradict your read on ashersky? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
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Does this support or contradict your read on ashersky? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Supports. I'm explaining what my ongoing-game-based read was (that he behaved completely differently in the same situation as town in DW2).
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Voltaire, can you elaborate on your scumread on Ashersky now?
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I didn't even realize this had happened.
Remember how ash furiously went 100% insane that faust was scum over faust's "ash is the best mislynch" comment, and ash turned out to be town? Well, someone did this in that game and ash went "Hmm, ok, I disagree"
Your case boils down to "ash isn't being crazy enough, must be scum." Or maybe things got too heated recently in games and I'm cognizant of that? I'd say I'm less argumentative as a whole this game.
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Does this support or contradict your read on ashersky? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Supports. I'm explaining what my ongoing-game-based read was (that he behaved completely differently in the same situation as town in DW2).
I didn't even make a connection to Faust's "best mislynch" comment. Hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it.
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Man, it's quiet.
Deadline is tomorrow?
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Deadline is tomorrow?
Yeah. Looks like we're waiting on Walrus as no-one is changing their opinions.
Here's a question for you Volt: I still don't understand why you didn't claim and allow the target to be decided democratically. Using your power in this fashion is akin to a vig or SK, I guess, in that it allows a single player to influence who dies in a serious way. Did you think your judgment was better without collective input?
Missed this direct question at first. I can't honestly know if my judgement was better, I know think I probably should have done something else, but I was making decisions after getting 75% odds of lynching scum correctly wrong in DW2 and that really really shook my scumhunting confidence. Still has, a bit, to be completely honest.
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Thanks for answering that Volt. But wouldn't losing your scumhunting confidence make you MORE likely to defer to town, not less?
faust's claim is interesting. To be honest it doesn't seem like very solid evidence for or against either candidate to me, I could see both sides. Maybe there are parallels but they could easily be scum/town/yin/yang -style parallels, or ash could be faking, or you could actually be scum, who knows. The fact that faust is defending ash so vigorously, to the point of an early claim even, without ostensibly knowing his alignment, and in order to corroborate ash's early claim, it all just feels funny to me. On the other hand, EFHW seems a little too sure of herself also, but she didn't claim at least.
That's pending on the flip we get of course.
town!Voltaire: xeiron gets townier a bit, Walrus gets scummier a bit if he hammered
scum!Voltaire: jotheonah gets townier, Walrus gets a lot townier if he hammered, xeiron gets a little scummier
town!ashersky: Eevee get a little less townie, Voltaire gets scummier, Walrus gets scummier if he hammered
scum!ashersky: All on the ashersky wagon get townier (especially EFHW and Voltaire), jotheonah gets scummier
This post also feels weird to me. There's nothing inherently wrong with this kind of reasoning. But here it feels like you're already setting things up to deal with all possible contingencies for tomorrow, possibly planting the seeds for a mislynch. In particular it makes me feel uncomfortable, as I get specifically implicated if I make a bad choice, and there may be two bad choices here.
I didn't realize deadline was sneaking up. I'll have an answer by tomorrow for sure.
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Thanks for answering that Volt. But wouldn't losing your scumhunting confidence make you MORE likely to defer to town, not less?
No, because three scum successfully got me (subtly, of course) to lynch the one town choice.
I agree that faust's role doesn't translate to his confidence in ash, but do understand it, if that makes sense, because I basically had to do the same thing.
Also, there is nothing wrong with faust listing if/then statements. Players should do/think that all the time.
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Deadline is tomorrow?
Yeah. Looks like we're waiting on Walrus as no-one is changing their opinions.
Not sure if it is good or bad that everyone seems set.
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Does this support or contradict your read on ashersky? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Supports. I'm explaining what my ongoing-game-based read was (that he behaved completely differently in the same situation as town in DW2).
I didn't even make a connection to Faust's "best mislynch" comment. Hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it.
and what do YOU mean here?
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Just noting that both Eevee and Joth reappeared within an hour of my mentioning their absences. It might not mean anything, but it does suggest lurking (reading not posting).
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why did I think the deadline was Friday?
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Voltaire not picking a different target is really the only thing that's stopping me from voting for ashersky. However, after thinking about it a lot more I'm going to vote for ash.
Here's why:
- Scummy behavior: Since he claimed negative utility I've had a scumread on him. His claim seemed totally truthful, but that doesn't make him Town.
What exactly about ashersky's behaviour does make you think he's scum?
Vote: ashersky. I think he's bluffing.
No; If I had a negative utility, I would keep it hidden and not use it. I see no reason why he said that he's a negative utility.
Additionally, his reaction upon being Gladiatored is flailing scum.
- Least Likely to Flip Scum: Power-wise, of course. I find it very unlikely that Yuma would make a Gladiator scum in this small of a game. Based on my power, I also think Voltaire is more likely to be Town.
I wonder how your power would indicate Voltaire's alignment. But if you don't want to reveal that, fine. Just let me ask: Why shouldn't there be a scum Gladiator in this game? For all we know, Voltaire could be lying about the exact nature of his role (i.e. it could not be compulsive).
I consider Gladiator a scum role in a game with more scum. In a 9P game I don't think it'd be included since we're looking at a likely two man scum team. And like faust said, that gives scum at least a 50/50 chance of one of their members dying Day 1. Also, if Volt is scum, I think he'd target someone who isn't a claimed negative utility.
- Inheritence Business: Goes along with the last one. I'm pretty sure Voltaire is Town and wouldn't use the power. Ash getting Gladiator wouldn't really do anything.
That's not a reason to vote ashersky at all.
It's a reason to vote him over Voltaire.
You're saying it doesn't matter who gets which power, so there's no reason why this would make you prefer an ashersky lynch.
If Voltaire or ashersky were to have the Redirector power, I'd rather have it be Voltaire since I have bigger Townread on him.
And again, what makes you so sure that Voltaire is town?
All the above should hopefully be sufficient. I've started to think this whole thing is TvT, but if I had to choose one to lynch I'd pick ashesrky. Sorry.
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Does this support or contradict your read on ashersky? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
Supports. I'm explaining what my ongoing-game-based read was (that he behaved completely differently in the same situation as town in DW2).
I didn't even make a connection to Faust's "best mislynch" comment. Hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it.
and what do YOU mean here?
I think Voltaire is making the argument that, in DW2 where I am confirmed to have been town, I went hard after faust for making a comment that was basically "we should try to get the best mislynch we can on D1," but in this game, when joth makes the same sort of statement, I did not go after him in the same way, so I must be scum.
I think it's a flawed argument at best. I'm saying I didn't even see the connection between faust's statement in DW2 and joth's statement in this game until Voltaire made this point.
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Additionally, his reaction upon being Gladiatored is flailing scum.
I generally don't have a problem with your opinion on me vs. Voltaire, even though you are wrong (about me, anyway).
But I do disagree with the quote above. I think others have specifically commented that I DIDN'T overreact enough.
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A huge fear I have is that you all will lynch me, see me flip town, but assume Voltaire is also town, and he just rides that into the victory sunset as scum.
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I do not think either of you flipping town lets the other one off the hook.
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I do not think either of you flipping town lets the other one off the hook.
Right, it shouldn't. I fear it will for Voltaire anyway.
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Need more talky.
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Needs a lynch at this point I think.
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We even have a talking thread where players are encouraged to go in and talk to their heart’s content.
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Vote Count 1.7
Voltaire (4): Eevee, jotheonah, faust, ashersky
ashersky (4): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron, Archetype
Not Voting (1): Walrus
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time.
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We even have a talking thread where players are encouraged to go in and talk to their heart’s content.
Any interest in switching your vote?
I'll switch mine if you switch yours first.
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Voltaire not picking a different target is really the only thing that's stopping me from voting for ashersky. However, after thinking about it a lot more I'm going to vote for ash.
Here's why:
- Scummy behavior: Since he claimed negative utility I've had a scumread on him. His claim seemed totally truthful, but that doesn't make him Town.
What exactly about ashersky's behaviour does make you think he's scum?
Vote: ashersky. I think he's bluffing.
No; If I had a negative utility, I would keep it hidden and not use it. I see no reason why he said that he's a negative utility.
Additionally, his reaction upon being Gladiatored is flailing scum.
I don't agree; and yes, I also see no reason why he said he's negative utility, no reason for scum as well. Do you believe ash's role claim to be true?
- Least Likely to Flip Scum: Power-wise, of course. I find it very unlikely that Yuma would make a Gladiator scum in this small of a game. Based on my power, I also think Voltaire is more likely to be Town.
I wonder how your power would indicate Voltaire's alignment. But if you don't want to reveal that, fine. Just let me ask: Why shouldn't there be a scum Gladiator in this game? For all we know, Voltaire could be lying about the exact nature of his role (i.e. it could not be compulsive).
I consider Gladiator a scum role in a game with more scum. In a 9P game I don't think it'd be included since we're looking at a likely two man scum team. And like faust said, that gives scum at least a 50/50 chance of one of their members dying Day 1. Also, if Volt is scum, I think he'd target someone who isn't a claimed negative utility.
You're missing my point. This line of reasoning only makes sense if Voltaire's role is compulsive. But is it? We don't know that. And why do you think Voltaire wouldn't target negative utility as scum? It makes much more sense for him to target negative utility as sucm than it does as town.
- Inheritence Business: Goes along with the last one. I'm pretty sure Voltaire is Town and wouldn't use the power. Ash getting Gladiator wouldn't really do anything.
That's not a reason to vote ashersky at all.
It's a reason to vote him over Voltaire.
You're saying it doesn't matter who gets which power, so there's no reason why this would make you prefer an ashersky lynch.
If Voltaire or ashersky were to have the Redirector power, I'd rather have it be Voltaire since I have bigger Townread on him.
But that's not the point! If we lynch Voltaire, ashersky will lose his Redirection power!
Your reasoning is seriously flawed, and I suggest you think it over.
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Walrus? The deadline is today. If you don't vote, it'll be random.
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
No posts at all overnight tells nor everyone seems ok with their vote.
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
how so?
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Yeah yeah I know, I'm getting to it, busy morning at work.
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
No posts at all overnight tells nor everyone seems ok with their vote.
I think this indicates ashersky being town, because I get the feeling from this thread that he's more likely the lynch, so why would he argue against random lynch, which increases his odds of surviving?
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
No posts at all overnight tells nor everyone seems ok with their vote.
I think this indicates ashersky being town, because I get the feeling from this thread that he's more likely the lynch, so why would he argue against random lynch, which increases his odds of surviving?
Possible explanations:
1. Because he wants to behave as town would behave
2. It's not at all clear who Walrus is going to pick. At first I thought it was me, now it (might?) be ash, but I can't really tell. Walrus could easily change his mind again.
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
how so?
I think if we deadline out at a tie, yuma has to randomly roll for the lynch. Say he rolls me, so we have a mislynch today. Everyone on wagon gets a cop out for why they mislynched town, and can argue against any wagon analysis that comes up on D2. If Voltaire is the lynch and turns out to be town, same deal. Basically, no hammer and a random lynch means no one is "at fault" with the mislynch if it goes that way.
The fact that everyone seems okay with where their vote sits means that scum feels that way, too (unless walrus is scum).
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1. Because he wants to behave as town would behave
This is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? I mean, you can literally make that argument about literally every person ever in literally every game ever. Literally.
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1. Because he wants to behave as town would behave
This is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? I mean, you can literally make that argument about literally every person ever in literally every game ever. Literally.
All that to say that was a scummily weak statement/argument for you to make.
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1. Because he wants to behave as town would behave
This is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? I mean, you can literally make that argument about literally every person ever in literally every game ever. Literally.
All that to say that was a scummily weak statement/argument for you to make.
That faust hasn't even seemed to consider. As in, faust's original reasoning about you is equally useless/pointless if you go by this reasoning.
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1. Because he wants to behave as town would behave
This is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? I mean, you can literally make that argument about literally every person ever in literally every game ever. Literally.
All that to say that was a scummily weak statement/argument for you to make.
That faust hasn't even seemed to consider. As in, faust's original reasoning about you is equally useless/pointless if you go by this reasoning.
I mean, that's fine. But why wouldn't you just say what I said to discredit faust's point, instead of trying to use a scummy weak argument about me?
If the point of your post was to say "faust's reasoning is flawed/pointless," you should have just said that. Instead, you tried to say "actually faust, ashersky is probably scummy for x or y" and hoped people inferred that faust was flawed.
That's scummy, I think.
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FYI, 2 hours and 40 minutes.
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Definitely don't want random, as that basically acquits everyone for their vote.
how so?
I think if we deadline out at a tie, yuma has to randomly roll for the lynch. Say he rolls me, so we have a mislynch today. Everyone on wagon gets a cop out for why they mislynched town, and can argue against any wagon analysis that comes up on D2. If Voltaire is the lynch and turns out to be town, same deal. Basically, no hammer and a random lynch means no one is "at fault" with the mislynch if it goes that way.
The fact that everyone seems okay with where their vote sits means that scum feels that way, too (unless walrus is scum).
Everyone but Walrus has picked a side. We'll have to stand by those votes, just the same as if they actually determined the lynch.
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I mean, that's fine. But why wouldn't you just say what I said to discredit faust's point, instead of trying to use a scummy weak argument about me?
If the point of your post was to say "faust's reasoning is flawed/pointless," you should have just said that. Instead, you tried to say "actually faust, ashersky is probably scummy for x or y" and hoped people inferred that faust was flawed.
That's scummy, I think.
Because I'm trying to get you lynched, quite honestly. That's not scummy. It's the only thing I can really do at this point.
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I mean, that's fine. But why wouldn't you just say what I said to discredit faust's point, instead of trying to use a scummy weak argument about me?
If the point of your post was to say "faust's reasoning is flawed/pointless," you should have just said that. Instead, you tried to say "actually faust, ashersky is probably scummy for x or y" and hoped people inferred that faust was flawed.
That's scummy, I think.
Because I'm trying to get you lynched, quite honestly. That's not scummy. It's the only thing I can really do at this point.
You can see how it is scummy to me, given I know I'm town even if you don't.
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You can see how it is scummy to me, given I know I'm town even if you don't.
Of course I can. Anything either of us thinks about the other I assume everyone else can assume at this point.
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You can see how it is scummy to me, given I know I'm town even if you don't.
Of course I can. Anything either of us thinks about the other I assume everyone else can assume at this point.
If we're both town, this just feels really unfortunate.
And your fault.
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If we're both town, this just feels really unfortunate.
And your fault.
If we're both town:
1. How many times do I have to scream "compulsive"?
2. I think I did just fine with a role that has never previously existed on f.ds. YMMV
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If we're both town, this just feels really unfortunate.
And your fault.
If we're both town:
1. How many times do I have to scream "compulsive"?
2. I think I did just fine with a role that has never previously existed on f.ds. YMMV
1. How many times do I have to scream "ou could have compulsively used it many different ways?"
2. Compulsive Scum Gladiatior was used on f.ds before, so it has previously existed.
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2. Compulsive Scum Gladiatior was used on f.ds before, so it has previously existed.
I see what you did there.
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Vote Count 1.8
Voltaire (4): Eevee, jotheonah, faust, ashersky
ashersky (4): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron, Archetype
Not Voting (1): Walrus
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline for Day1 is 8 days. Day1 will end on Tuesday February 4 at 7:30 pm forum time. That is in ~ 45 minutes.
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WALRUS
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As we are nering the deadline, I am getting increasedly sure both Volt and Ash is town.
And because of that, I am feeling pretty indifferent about who we lynch.
A huge fear I have is that you all will lynch me, see me flip town, but assume Voltaire is also town, and he just rides that into the victory sunset as scum.
A huge fear for me is that we lynch one of our duelants today, and the other one tomorrow, and then we are in lylo D3 without giving scum any sweat, or we could even lose with more than one death during a night.
I think we should look closer at the other players tomorrow. Espesially on Jotheonah and Archetype. They are sailling up as my main scum candidates.
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WALRUS
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If Walrus doesn't show, it's random, right? It would be slightly better, if one of us feels they would be comfortable switching side, for that person to do so. That way the lynch is determined by people's opinions, and the group of us together would hopefully be more useful than random chance.
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If Walrus doesn't show, it's random, right? It would be slightly better, if one of us feels they would be comfortable switching side, for that person to do so. That way the lynch is determined by people's opinions, and the group of us together would hopefully be more useful than random chance.
Correct; the lynch will be decided randomly unless someone unvotes or switches votes.
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ashersky asked for a popsquiz.
Somewhat scummy: Eevee - jotheonah
slightly scummy: Archetype
Null: xeiron, ashersky, walrus
towny: Voltaire, faust
Definitely town: EFHW
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Alright. We need a flip, and I guess I'm the one who's gonna make that happen.
I apologize for waiting until the last moment. For one work is kicking my ass, it's been one thing after another.
But for two, I really expected to see a lot more activity leading up to now. Every other deadline I've seen in this game has been crazy madness, with people arguing and switching around and wagons polymerizing and depolymerizing like actin filaments. This game has been relatively stagnant by comparison.
Is everybody other than me really so rock solid on their choices? It makes me feel like a weirdo for being indecisive and thinking about it. Maybe it's because this has come down to a 1v1 situation, which is not ordinary for D1 obviously. Maybe it's just the nature of the position I've been put in--having the hammer like this makes me feel like I have more responsiblity/accountability, and maybe others are unlikely to want to expose themselves by joining me in the middle? It really makes me feel as if scum is cozily peering from the sidelines, content in how things are playing out. I see your point joth about sticking to your guns, but really I find such decisiveness on D1 to be quite unusual.
So I think we're dealing with town vs. town here. But I ought to vote, and I'm going for ash--I like those chances better. The more I read, the more Volt reminds me of Game of Thrones Volt. I still find it hard to accept a scum gladiator role in a game of this size, and ash's early claim has bothered me all day.
So vote: ashersky and hope for the best.
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Voltaire not picking a different target is really the only thing that's stopping me from voting for ashersky. However, after thinking about it a lot more I'm going to vote for ash.
Here's why:
- Scummy behavior: Since he claimed negative utility I've had a scumread on him. His claim seemed totally truthful, but that doesn't make him Town.
What exactly about ashersky's behaviour does make you think he's scum?
Vote: ashersky. I think he's bluffing.
No; If I had a negative utility, I would keep it hidden and not use it. I see no reason why he said that he's a negative utility.
Additionally, his reaction upon being Gladiatored is flailing scum.
I don't agree; and yes, I also see no reason why he said he's negative utility, no reason for scum as well. Do you believe ash's role claim to be true?
- Least Likely to Flip Scum: Power-wise, of course. I find it very unlikely that Yuma would make a Gladiator scum in this small of a game. Based on my power, I also think Voltaire is more likely to be Town.
I wonder how your power would indicate Voltaire's alignment. But if you don't want to reveal that, fine. Just let me ask: Why shouldn't there be a scum Gladiator in this game? For all we know, Voltaire could be lying about the exact nature of his role (i.e. it could not be compulsive).
I consider Gladiator a scum role in a game with more scum. In a 9P game I don't think it'd be included since we're looking at a likely two man scum team. And like faust said, that gives scum at least a 50/50 chance of one of their members dying Day 1. Also, if Volt is scum, I think he'd target someone who isn't a claimed negative utility.
You're missing my point. This line of reasoning only makes sense if Voltaire's role is compulsive. But is it? We don't know that. And why do you think Voltaire wouldn't target negative utility as scum? It makes much more sense for him to target negative utility as sucm than it does as town.
- Inheritence Business: Goes along with the last one. I'm pretty sure Voltaire is Town and wouldn't use the power. Ash getting Gladiator wouldn't really do anything.
That's not a reason to vote ashersky at all.
It's a reason to vote him over Voltaire.
You're saying it doesn't matter who gets which power, so there's no reason why this would make you prefer an ashersky lynch.
If Voltaire or ashersky were to have the Redirector power, I'd rather have it be Voltaire since I have bigger Townread on him.
But that's not the point! If we lynch Voltaire, ashersky will lose his Redirection power!
Your reasoning is seriously flawed, and I suggest you think it over.
I thought ashersky would get a Gladiator power in addition to his role. I believe ash's claim to be true as Town or Scum. Voltaire trying to get a negative utility as scum makes sense, I suppose. That's really the only thing that makes me question Volt's alignment.
Like xeiron, I'm starting to believe this is T v T, but I still think ashersky has a higher chance of flipping scum, so my vote is still there. Like, I wouldn't be too crushed if Voltaire was lynched over ash, but I prefer ash.
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You chose wrong, Walrus.
Lynch Voltaire tomorrow.
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head's up
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And that was hammer on ash.
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Remember, you can't trust results now, as scum has the redirector role.
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Trying to post all thoughts before yuma locks.
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If you are town, ashersky, then it's also possible that both sides were the wrong choice.
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If Volt didn't lie about stealing my power, he can redirect people. That includes faust, if faust told the truth, so faust can't save people anymore.
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Remember, you can't trust results now, as scum has the redirector role.
But if Voltaire is Town, he won't use it.
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If you are town, ashersky, then it's also possible that both sides were the wrong choice.
Possible, but improbable. Town!Voltaire definitely takes much more care with such a dangerous role.
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Remember, you can't trust results now, as scum has the redirector role.
But if Voltaire is Town, he won't use it.
Big huge unlikely if.
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Think through the narratives. The town!Volt narrative does NOT include such a unilateral and early use of a terrible anti-town compulsive power.
There is NO town narrative for Voltaire's actions today.
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Once I flip, you can all trust my posts as honest beliefs of a town player trying to help town. Doesn't make me right, but it makes me honest and trustworthy.
I didn't even lie a bit about my role.
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you are arguing more passionately now, when it's a done deal, than you did before the hammer.
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After Voltaire, I still suspect joth.
I'd definitely keep an eye on my wagon. Unless walrus is scum, scum couldn't safely bus Voltaire.
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you are arguing more passionately now, when it's a done deal, than you did before the hammer.
Now I know I can be believed, since you'll see me flip town.
When I argue passionately and I'm not dead, everyone just assumes I'm scum.
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you are arguing more passionately now, when it's a done deal, than you did before the hammer.
My town death will also add an exclamation point to everything I'm trying to say about Voltaire's incredibly anti-town play, which in this instance seems very much to be scum play.
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Ask me anything before lock comes so I can provide info.
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Also walrus's nonchalant excuse hammer post was pretty scummy.
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Arch seems super scummy, which makes him town.
EFHW is so calm and collected that I fear the Masons & Monks effect.
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Still, mostly towny on EFHW.
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Ugh. Ok. Now I'm starting to think ash is Town and I made the wrong choice. But both of them could've been the wrong choice.
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I'm guessing Voltaire's already in his scum QT, given he's not posted even once here, even though he's been saved from lynch.
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Watch out on D2 for Voltaire twisting my post-death words. He likes to do that as scum. He'll frame some of what I said as reasonable excuses for my mislynch and for his choice to gladiate me. They won't be valid excuses.
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Check the people who voted me early and then barely posted the rest of the day. That's definitely a same scum play.
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Check the people who voted me early and then barely posted the rest of the day. That's definitely a same scum play.
same = safe
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Since town had a redirector role, quite possible scum has a bus driver. They now also have my redirector, which can't stop kills, so a vig would still be able to kill if one exists.
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Town PRs, think about what scum PRs would counteract you, or you might counteract. Mod!Yuma definitely thinks that way when he designs. We're alike like that.
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Town PRs, think about what scum PRs would counteract you, or you might counteract. Mod!Yuma definitely thinks that way when he designs. We're alike like that.
Oh man; That means scum has a Godfather!
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
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Actually, ninja means tracker. :)
Seriously though, remember, 9 players means incredibly fast lynches and game ends if you make mistakes. Tomorrow you could be looking at 4 to lynch, and scum is 2 votes at least.
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
I just don't see them bussing AND leaving their votes on that long.
Possibly those who voted Voltaire early and then voted me later. Or folks who hedged on Volt (or both of us) and then decided on me as "more likely" scum. Those are both scum tactics.
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I guarantee at least one person in the speccy adamantly posted at least 5 times that I was definitely town.
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Deadline in under 2 minutes, I'm guessing yuma is giving us twilight until then. Anything else I can say?
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Arch seems super scummy, which makes him town.
EFHW is so calm and collected that I fear the Masons & Monks effect.
nah, you had my number from day 1 in M and M. The way we won was I convinced you I was a DIFFERENT kind of scum.
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Arch seems super scummy, which makes him town.
EFHW is so calm and collected that I fear the Masons & Monks effect.
nah, you had my number from day 1 in M and M. The way we won was I convinced you I was a DIFFERENT kind of scum.
That was a brilliant move. Didn't help town that Morgrim is so unbelievable.
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No Volt at deadline is a big scum tell, too.
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Deadline in under 2 minutes, I'm guessing yuma is giving us twilight until then. Anything else I can say?
Why DID you claim so early?
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
I just don't see them bussing AND leaving their votes on that long.
Possibly those who voted Voltaire early and then voted me later. Or folks who hedged on Volt (or both of us) and then decided on me as "more likely" scum. Those are both scum tactics.
I think it's a habit of yours to fasten on someone as scum and then never consider any other possibility. I think it's not actually very helpful for town.
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Worthwhile re-reads overnight might be Volt's interactions with others, to see what sort of distancing might have been going on.
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Deadline in under 2 minutes, I'm guessing yuma is giving us twilight until then. Anything else I can say?
Why DID you claim so early?
I truly believe it was the right move, given how anti-town my role is. I wanted to make a point: "don't use your redirection roles people!"
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
I just don't see them bussing AND leaving their votes on that long.
Possibly those who voted Voltaire early and then voted me later. Or folks who hedged on Volt (or both of us) and then decided on me as "more likely" scum. Those are both scum tactics.
I think it's a habit of yours to fasten on someone as scum and then never consider any other possibility. I think it's not actually very helpful for town.
Maybe. Maybe not. There are games where I've been right, too, you know.
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
I just don't see them bussing AND leaving their votes on that long.
Possibly those who voted Voltaire early and then voted me later. Or folks who hedged on Volt (or both of us) and then decided on me as "more likely" scum. Those are both scum tactics.
I think it's a habit of yours to fasten on someone as scum and then never consider any other possibility. I think it's not actually very helpful for town.
Maybe. Maybe not. There are games where I've been right, too, you know.
More on your original "why not those who voted Volt" question. I think the safe vote if we're both town is probably me, right? It's easier to argue away the scumminess of the mislynch with the "ashersky was scummier" and "losing ash's role wasn't as bad" stuff.
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I'm guessing Voltaire's already in his scum QT, given he's not posted even once here, even though he's been saved from lynch.
i WAS playing dominion and eating sinner catching up now with pizza in hand :P
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So if it was t v t, I think scum was still more likely to push my mislynch through, getting Voltaire the anti-town role he won't use, and moving on.
So, if we're both town OR if Volt is scum, I think scum preferred my lynch.
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
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Is that more helpful?
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
Doesn't mean you couldn't open up a new post window and start typing out your thoughts.
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
Doesn't mean you couldn't open up a new post window and start typing out your thoughts.
Also, you should direct questions about your scum QT to the mod, not the thread.
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You have been right sometimes - you were right about me in M and M. But when you fasten on one person, you don't help town do any other scum-hunting, and when you are wrong it really derails the process. You were wrong about me in Innovation, and we both died.
Anyway, have a good afterlife and we'll see you on the other side!
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Volt, what defenses will you use after my flip?
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Volt, what defenses will you use after my flip?
Serious question for scum or town Volt.
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Is that more helpful?
yes!
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Faust's insistence on my innocence is still confusing to me.
His "our roles are similar" argument resonates with me, but is also a stretch for someone I think is usually a bit more logical.
Don't know, but lean town anyway.
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
Doesn't mean you couldn't open up a new post window and start typing out your thoughts.
You are absurd.
I didn't sit around at the deadline because I knew there WOULD be a lynch if Walrus never showed up (which is unusual) and he made the I am pretty-sure correct right mvoe.
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what about the people who voted Voltaire early and then barely posted?
I just don't see them bussing AND leaving their votes on that long.
Possibly those who voted Voltaire early and then voted me later. Or folks who hedged on Volt (or both of us) and then decided on me as "more likely" scum. Those are both scum tactics.
I think it's a habit of yours to fasten on someone as scum and then never consider any other possibility. I think it's not actually very helpful for town.
Maybe. Maybe not. There are games where I've been right, too, you know.
More on your original "why not those who voted Volt" question. I think the safe vote if we're both town is probably me, right? It's easier to argue away the scumminess of the mislynch with the "ashersky was scummier" and "losing ash's role wasn't as bad" stuff.
But Voltaire can be very active town. I've read scum QT's where getting rid of Voltaire was a priority. You would have been an easier mislynch later on.
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Well, we're past the deadline with no yuma (who does like long twilights).
I think town can still win this, of course. Losing a townie on D1 isn't rare.
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You have been right sometimes - you were right about me in M and M. But when you fasten on one person, you don't help town do any other scum-hunting, and when you are wrong it really derails the process. You were wrong about me in Innovation, and we both died.
Anyway, have a good afterlife and we'll see you on the other side!
thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis
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But Voltaire can be very active town. I've read scum QT's where getting rid of Voltaire was a priority. You would have been an easier mislynch later on.
I'm always an easy mislych.
Are you saying I'm not active town? I'm generally the top or one of the top posters in every game.
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
Doesn't mean you couldn't open up a new post window and start typing out your thoughts.
You are absurd.
I didn't sit around at the deadline because I knew there WOULD be a lynch if Walrus never showed up (which is unusual) and he made the I am pretty-sure correct right mvoe.
what would make you think ashersky was the non-correct choice?
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Volt, what defenses will you use after my flip?
Sorry, try again.
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Rules are scum can't post until threa dlocked, right? You are seriously throwing everything at the wall to me, it's stnadard for you.
Doesn't mean you couldn't open up a new post window and start typing out your thoughts.
You are absurd.
I didn't sit around at the deadline because I knew there WOULD be a lynch if Walrus never showed up (which is unusual) and he made the I am pretty-sure correct right mvoe.
what would make you think ashersky was the non-correct choice?
if ash is town, AND if it would be better for town to have ash in control of both roles.
the odds of which are about 1%
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But Voltaire can be very active town. I've read scum QT's where getting rid of Voltaire was a priority. You would have been an easier mislynch later on.
I'm always an easy mislych.
Are you saying I'm not active town? I'm generally the top or one of the top posters in every game.
that's right, you were scum in the last game when you lurked so much.
Still, better to keep the easier mislynch around.
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You have been right sometimes - you were right about me in M and M. But when you fasten on one person, you don't help town do any other scum-hunting, and when you are wrong it really derails the process. You were wrong about me in Innovation, and we both died.
Anyway, have a good afterlife and we'll see you on the other side!
thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis
So you admit I'm town?
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Sorry got caught up in a Buffy episode and lost track of time...
Thread Locked!
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Final Day1 Vote count
Voltaire (4): Eevee, jotheonah, faust, ashersky
ashersky (5): Voltaire, EFHW, xeiron, Archetype, Walrus
Everyone was gathered at the Judgy Reinholt court room to hear the case of ashersky v. Voltaire. Both sides presented their arguments as eloquently as they could. One side brought in Any Griffith. The other brought in that famous guy from L.A. Law. But ultimately it was decided at the very last moment that ashersky was in the wrong.
ashersky, has been lynched. He was the Vertigo Redirector, Lucille Austero, a Secondary Character.
All Night actions are due in 24 hours, please send them to me by PM. Everyone is at the least required to check in during the night, even if you are not planning on using a role during the night. Day2 will start approx. 24 hours after that.
This thread is Now Locked!
Night2 Starts Now!
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Lindsay was having a hard day. Her mother wouldn't pick up the phone. "Doesn't she have a maid to answer her phone?" Lindsay asked.
"No, Lupe was let go a few days ago I think," responded Michael. "Why are you calling her anyways."
"I need to borrow one of her furs for a charity event that I am going to tonight. It is for a great cause, something to do with this organization run by a guy by the name of Pete A."
"I think you shouldn't wear..." Michael started to say. "Why do I even try," he muttered to himself.
"I know! I will call her lawyer! They were supposed to meet today to see if they could reduce Dad's upcoming jail time."
But Barry wasn't answering his phone either.
"Well I guess I will just have to wear my leather jacket. I just hope Tobias didn't stretch it out during his "Discipline Daddy" phase last month."
ashersky has been killed. He was the Aid Required Vigilante, Lucille, a Good Bluth.
Voltaire has been killed. He was the Attorney Gladiator, Barry Zuckerkorn, a Secondary Character.
Vote Count 2.1
Not Voting (8): xeiron, Voltaire, jotheonah, faust, Walrus, Eevee, EFHW, Archetype
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
Day2 Starts Now!
Thread Unlocked!
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confused. ashersky came back to life and then died again?
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Glad to see you were town, Voltaire!
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Well it looks like that is what is making the game last longer...hey guys. I am still alive. And it looks like ash died twice (???) Unless his flip changed, but my existence makes me think that's not what's going on.
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and actually, knowing Voltaire's flip will be handy, b/c I think we can rule out him using the redirector power. I have a possible result to report, but I'll wait until more people have posted. I'm concerned about misinterpreting my result.
PPE: um, is immortality an arrested development trait? And who knew to kill ashersky again?
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What the heck.
Ok, massclaim? I'm confused and need some answers.
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also, when did he become a vigilante? Why aren't you a redirector, and why wasn't ash a gladiator?
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PPE: um, is immortality an arrested development trait? And who knew to kill ashersky again?
Not as far as I can tell. I have stuff to report about still being alive, but...I don't think it will be helpful and/or I want to see what else we have going on, honestly.
As far as ash goes, your guess is as good as mine.
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do we all have two lives?
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also, when did he become a vigilante? Why aren't you a redirector, and why wasn't ash a gladiator?
What are you talking about a vig? I'm not a redirector because I'm dead, and ash would only be a gladiator had he won yesterday.
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do we all have two lives?
That is what I am thinking.
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Voltaire do you have a different role now?
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Voltaire do you have a different role now?
Yup. Which was news to me.
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I also have a different flavor name.
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also, when did he become a vigilante? Why aren't you a redirector, and why wasn't ash a gladiator?
What are you talking about a vig? I'm not a redirector because I'm dead, and ash would only be a gladiator had he won yesterday.
I mean you didn't flip redirector, you flipped gladiator
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
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also, when did he become a vigilante? Why aren't you a redirector, and why wasn't ash a gladiator?
What are you talking about a vig? I'm not a redirector because I'm dead, and ash would only be a gladiator had he won yesterday.
I mean you didn't flip redirector, you flipped gladiator
Correct. I just checked the PM yuma sent me, and I only asked him about what happened when I was lynched. I can confirm, though, that I was told when the night began that I had ash's role, and it worked how he described it.
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You are right, that is not what I expected.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
Why do you think ash killed me? I don't follow.
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Also I have to go, I have something to get to but when I saw the thread was unlocked I had to check.
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I'm guessing we all start out as secondary characters and then come back to life as Bluths.
But do you see the problem here? If there's no alignment flips, then an extra life for scum seems worse then an extra life for town, right? Town dies, becomes an IC. Scum dies, gets killed immediately.
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I'm guessing we all start out as secondary characters and then come back to life as Bluths.
But do you see the problem here? If there's no alignment flips, then an extra life for scum seems worse then an extra life for town, right? Town dies, becomes an IC. Scum dies, gets killed immediately.
Unless their alignment changes?
Also, it said "Good Bluth" for ashersky. Does that mean there are Bad Bluths?
Who did you Bodyguard last night Faust?
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Grins Maniacally
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
Why do you think ash killed me? I don't follow.
Because he was a big and he was sure you were scum and he always shoots as vig.
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Vig, not big!
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I'm guessing we all start out as secondary characters and then come back to life as Bluths.
But do you see the problem here? If there's no alignment flips, then an extra life for scum seems worse then an extra life for town, right? Town dies, becomes an IC. Scum dies, gets killed immediately.
Maybe it's the IC thing that made them want to kill ashersky. We have to assume no alignment switching, b/c that would be bastard.
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Hmmm...very peculiar. Very peculiar indeed.
I guess the 2 lives theory makes some sense. It certainly would have the effect of lengthening the game. Are we sure this isn't something particular to ash and/or Volt though, or due to some other PR meddling?
Volt, are you going to share your new role and flavor? That could be helpful.
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Two lives, thats a suprise.
But it is the only thing that make sense.
I did wonder last night why we never got Asherskys alignment when he died (he flipped in green, but it never said that he was town).
I first thought green ment town, but now I thing it is just a confusing element added by the mod.
First flip is always in green (even for scum) the secon and final flip is in grey and states allignment.
That means voltaire is not confirmed town.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
I think scum thought Ashersky flipped town, and that he would become a IC today, so they killed him again. They must have been told about the two-life mechanic somehow.
It is quite obvious that Ashersky shot Voltaire. He got vig as his second role, and he made it clear D1 that Voltaire was his top suspect.
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I'm guessing we all start out as secondary characters and then come back to life as Bluths.
But do you see the problem here? If there's no alignment flips, then an extra life for scum seems worse then an extra life for town, right? Town dies, becomes an IC. Scum dies, gets killed immediately.
Unless their alignment changes?
Also, it said "Good Bluth" for ashersky. Does that mean there are Bad Bluths?
Who did you Bodyguard last night Faust?
Right now, I do not wish to reaveal anything about my night action without there being a reason to.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
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The two life theory makes me think a massclaim is the way to go. We can figure out stuff, and because we might have two lives, scum doesn't get to know the whole setup.
Also, scum having two lives means a scum Gladiator is more likely.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
Do you have any other explanation for why anybody would target Ashersky during the night even though he just was lynched?
It is not common to target dead players, and it was not obvious from Asherskys flip that he was still alive.
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I have no idea what all of this means. I feel the mechanics make scumhunting and taking reads significantly harder. I wouldn't oppose a massclaim.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
Do you have any other explanation for why anybody would target Ashersky during the night even though he just was lynched?
It is not common to target dead players, and it was not obvious from Asherskys flip that he was still alive.
Well, there are ways without ashersky being directly targeted. Some kill could have been redirected to him. In the end, I guess it's most likely that the mafia killed him, but I don't like how EFHW was jumping to conclusions.
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What do you think it means that ash was "Aid Required Vigilante"? Is there someone who in some way helped him kill Voltaire?
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What do you think it means that ash was "Aid Required Vigilante"? Is there someone who in some way helped him kill Voltaire?
I think it is a variant of the permission-requiring -Vigilante role that EFHW had in Modern community. Aid-required probably means that there is some restriction on who Ash could kill.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
Do you have any other explanation for why anybody would target Ashersky during the night even though he just was lynched?
It is not common to target dead players, and it was not obvious from Asherskys flip that he was still alive.
Well, there are ways without ashersky being directly targeted. Some kill could have been redirected to him. In the end, I guess it's most likely that the mafia killed him, but I don't like how EFHW was jumping to conclusions.
Random redirection is a possibility.
But otherwhise redirection requires the redirector to target Ashersky. And they wouldn't if they did not know Ashersky was still alive.
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I do not support a mass claim.
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I am also against a massclaim.
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so I guess nobody has investigative results to claim. bummer.
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I mean, nobody has positive ones -- obviously keep town results to yourselves.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
They must know b/c ashersky was killed again.
So you have been thinking I'm scum? When did this suspicion begin, and how strong has it been?
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I'm guessing we all start out as secondary characters and then come back to life as Bluths.
But do you see the problem here? If there's no alignment flips, then an extra life for scum seems worse then an extra life for town, right? Town dies, becomes an IC. Scum dies, gets killed immediately.
I can confirm I am now a Bluth. I can also confirm the Bluth I am (and my new role) relates to who I was (in a roundabout way). So I think we should absolutely not claim our original flavor, as it could give scum an idea who to start killing.
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Maybe it's the IC thing that made them want to kill ashersky. We have to assume no alignment switching, b/c that would be bastard.
Actually...would it be bastard for town's second life to be scum? I don't think so, isn't it just like traitors? I mean, in order to balance the second life thing, things that "seem" bastard/unbalanced probably have to happen.
I can't see any ways scum becomes town, though. Could that mean there was only one scum initially? Just trying to think how this would work.
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Volt, are you going to share your new role and flavor? That could be helpful.
I already said this, but absolutely not.
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Two lives, thats a suprise.
But it is the only thing that make sense.
I did wonder last night why we never got Asherskys alignment when he died (he flipped in green, but it never said that he was town).
I first thought green ment town, but now I thing it is just a confusing element added by the mod.
First flip is always in green (even for scum) the secon and final flip is in grey and states allignment.
That means voltaire is not confirmed town.
scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
I think scum thought Ashersky flipped town, and that he would become a IC today, so they killed him again. They must have been told about the two-life mechanic somehow.
It is quite obvious that Ashersky shot Voltaire. He got vig as his second role, and he made it clear D1 that Voltaire was his top suspect.
This makes all sorts of sense.
And really kind of pisses me off if flip colors don't match any more. If flips aren't supposed to provide information, make them gray. I hated this in DW2 and I hate it here (if it really is what is going on).
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
This doesn't make sense. Scum has to know about the second life thing, else how else did ash die again? Unless there is town who was told about the second life thing, in which case why did they kill ash?
This reinforces my town read on faust actually as this is an easy thing to sort out. I think it makes EFHW more of a no-middle-ground read but I also lean town right now.
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And compulsive D1 gladiator makes so much sense to me now. :P
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I am also against a massclaim.
agree
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And compulsive D1 gladiator makes so much sense to me now. :P
why? It doesn't add a lynch, just limits the choices.
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Volt, are you going to share your new role and flavor? That could be helpful.
I already said this, but absolutely not.
If we decide to do a massclaim, would that change your mind?
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
Do you have any other explanation for why anybody would target Ashersky during the night even though he just was lynched?
It is not common to target dead players, and it was not obvious from Asherskys flip that he was still alive.
Well, there are ways without ashersky being directly targeted. Some kill could have been redirected to him. In the end, I guess it's most likely that the mafia killed him, but I don't like how EFHW was jumping to conclusions.
faust you are the one claiming a redirection of kills power. Do you think there would be more than one role like that?
I really would like answers to my questions.
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to be clear, my questions about when you started to suspect me and how strongly have you suspected me.
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And compulsive D1 gladiator makes so much sense to me now. :P
why? It doesn't add a lynch, just limits the choices.
And the limiting of the choices isn't nearly as destructive/commandeering to the game as it would be in standard 9P.
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
This doesn't make sense. Scum has to know about the second life thing, else how else did ash die again? Unless there is town who was told about the second life thing, in which case why did they kill ash?
This reinforces my town read on faust actually as this is an easy thing to sort out. I think it makes EFHW more of a no-middle-ground read but I also lean town right now.
How does this reinforce your town read on faust?
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Volt, are you going to share your new role and flavor? That could be helpful.
I already said this, but absolutely not.
If we decide to do a massclaim, would that change your mind?
If people are already claiming and we have reached a point where me withholding the information suddenly becomes the anti-town thing to do, then yes. But I have reason to believe massclaim would be terrible and will try to prevent it from happening in any way shape or form.
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How does this reinforce your town read on faust?
Because I was actually thinking like faust last night, that your assumptions seemed to imply more knowledge than you should have, but then I realized no, you were just seeing things that were obvious I hadn't connected yet. faust pointing it out and having a scum read on you for those reasons, if scum, makes no sense because people will simply correct what is essentially just a misunderstanding. Add that I found faust's claim/actions yesterday reasonable and I think faust is my strongest town read right now.
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And compulsive D1 gladiator makes so much sense to me now. :P
why? It doesn't add a lynch, just limits the choices.
And the limiting of the choices isn't nearly as destructive/commandeering to the game as it would be in standard 9P.
So you mean the compulsive gladiator is not as perplexing as it was, not that gladiator would be important to this 2nd life dynamic. It seems like I'm being picky, but you leave out a lot of steps in your thinking, and then what you say just doesn't quite make sense to me.
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So you mean the compulsive gladiator is not as perplexing as it was, not that gladiator would be important to this 2nd life dynamic. It seems like I'm being picky, but you leave out a lot of steps in your thinking, and then what you say just doesn't quite make sense to me.
Yes, I know I frequently leave out steps, it's one of the problems of being one of the high(er) posters and also, obviously, thinking in my head at the same time.
I will say that I think this will be my first and only non-bastard game where I've had three different roles. :P
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scum clearly knows about this 2nd chance at life thing. Crap - it looks like ashersky killed Voltaire and scum killed ashersky. The question is why would scum want to kill ashersky?
It isn't all that clear to me that scum knows.
Vote: EFHW for now. This only adds to my previous suspicion.
They must know b/c ashersky was killed again.
So you have been thinking I'm scum? When did this suspicion begin, and how strong has it been?
I think I mentoned this D1, I had a scumread on you partway through D1 (started some time after the challenge). The way you defended Voltaire and tried to lynch ashersky just seemed fishy. It's certainly not at super solid case, but the strongest scum read a have at the moment.
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So I know I never did one of these D1, but it seems there will still be some value to it.
Post count (no pregame)
142 ashersky? ashersky?
110 Voltaire
78 EFHW
51 faust
39 Eevee
34 jotheonah
22 Archetype
22 xeiron
14 Walrus
Eevee I forgot was even in this game, somehow.
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I honestly think we could be looking for as little as one scum player right now. If town players become scum on their second life, this could fix the double-kill problem original scum would have. If only one of them is stuck like that, it makes the team much better.
Because if every town player gets town lives, scum can't win.
If our original lives don't flip and we get new roles, then...I don't really know.
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I honestly think we could be looking for as little as one scum player right now. If town players become scum on their second life, this could fix the double-kill problem original scum would have. If only one of them is stuck like that, it makes the team much better.
Because if every town player gets town lives, scum can't win.
If our original lives don't flip and we get new roles, then...I don't really know.
I still think alignment changing would be bastard. Doesn't matter if you die in between, you're forced to play for a wincon that you can't be sure you will still have at the end of the game. So your excellent vig shot at scum turns out to be horrible because you get to be scum! And that is pretty bastard to me.
I really think it looks like this: We have secondary characters (colored green regardless of alignment) that turn into good Bluths (colored purple) or evil Bluths (colored red presumably). And everyone keeps their wincon in the process.
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If alignments are kept on dying, which I strongly believe, then everybody who dies at night is very likely town.
I'm wondering if we should no lynch. A lynch won't be informative, as alignments don't flip. We get more time to have our PRs work. And if scum kills, this strongly indicates the killed player (who remains alive) being town.
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I really think it looks like this: We have secondary characters (colored green regardless of alignment) that turn into good Bluths (colored purple) or evil Bluths (colored red presumably). And everyone keeps their wincon in the process.
Then we gain no information from our lynches? And scum, if caught on their first lives, are doomed to be insta-lynched again just for town to figure out if they were actually right again or not? I dunno.
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faust saying the same thing. I agree, I see no reason not to no-lynch.
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I have to second Voltaire's complaint about the colors. Using green was VERY misleading.
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so you have had a slight scum read on me, faust?
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faust saying the same thing. I agree, I see no reason not to no-lynch.
which actually makes me think we must be missing something. Now that I think about that.
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If alignments are kept on dying, which I strongly believe, then everybody who dies at night is very likely town.
This doesn't follow. You can redirect kills. What if you by happenstance redirect to a scum player?
This is the second time your posts contradict what you say your role is. I had a strong town read on you at the end of Day 1, which I indicated in a post. Today I am just perplexed.
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This doesn't follow. You can redirect kills. What if you by happenstance redirect to a scum player?
This is the second time your posts contradict what you say your role is. I had a strong town read on you at the end of Day 1, which I indicated in a post. Today I am just perplexed.
If faust doesn't use his role, then he's fine. He hasn't claimed compulsive, has he? Because ash wasn't compulsive, so I now see where all this confusion came from.
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I have to go, and might not be back for awhile, so I will tell everyone now that faust targeted me last night. I thought he must have bodyguarded me, but now that he says he has suspicions, I think maybe he wanted to direct a kill to me. That is all the information I have about it - I don't know what he did.
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If alignments are kept on dying, which I strongly believe, then everybody who dies at night is very likely town.
This doesn't follow. You can redirect kills. What if you by happenstance redirect to a scum player?
This is the second time your posts contradict what you say your role is. I had a strong town read on you at the end of Day 1, which I indicated in a post. Today I am just perplexed.
Well, now I know, so I can use my role in a way to ensure this doesn't happen, and every other town player should as well.
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I have to go, and might not be back for awhile, so I will tell everyone now that faust targeted me last night. I thought he must have bodyguarded me, but now that he says he has suspicions, I think maybe he wanted to direct a kill to me. That is all the information I have about it - I don't know what he did.
That is correct. How do you know that? (or maybe you don't want to reveal, I could understand that)
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This doesn't follow. You can redirect kills. What if you by happenstance redirect to a scum player?
This is the second time your posts contradict what you say your role is. I had a strong town read on you at the end of Day 1, which I indicated in a post. Today I am just perplexed.
If faust doesn't use his role, then he's fine. He hasn't claimed compulsive, has he? Because ash wasn't compulsive, so I now see where all this confusion came from.
No, my role is not compulsive, and even if it was, I could just use my standard Bodyguarding and be fine.
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I think we should keep no lynch in mind but definitely continue to scumhunt. Otherwise we waste the day.
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faust, why did you target EFHW?
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three claims and no actual Bluths? For reference, there are 9 actual Bluth family members, 11 if you count Oscar and Annyong. So this I find suspicious. I f I were designing a 9-player Arested Development mafia game, I would probably include the 9 Bluths, vis a vis:
Lucille Bluth
George Sr.
Michael
Gob
Buster
Lindsay
Tobias
George Michael
Maibe
So, without saying anything about my own role flavor, I have to wonder if one or more of these claims isn't a fake claim. Or if there's just some weird mod-trolling here.
Well this is an interesting post by Jo.
In everyone's next post, I need you to please state whether or not you targeted Voltaire last night. A simple yes or no will suffice.
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No.
To be clear, I think this was possible, as if I had used ash's role and redirected someone to me it might have counted as targeting myself.
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No.
why interesting?
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faust, why did you target EFHW?
She was my top scumread, and I didn't have someone I wanted to protect.
To Archetype: No, obviously, I targeted EFHW.
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didnt target voltaire.
town read on faust, had a town read on voltaire, no idea about second lifes but I guess I still do.
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No.
why interesting?
Just seems like that is what's going on. We'll all Secondary charachters that then become Main Charachters upon death.
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In everyone's next post, I need you to please state whether or not you targeted Voltaire last night. A simple yes or no will suffice.
no
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
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In everyone's next post, I need you to please state whether or not you targeted Voltaire last night. A simple yes or no will suffice.
no
Same here.
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Didn't see Walrus's post. Same meaning I did not.
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I see that no lynch is a topic.
I am pretty sure it is not a good idea for the same reson as always.
The lynch is our tool for elimination scum, and we need to use that tool whenever we can.
Yes, we do risk mislynching, but if we lynch everyday we can afford one or two misses.
If we stall out by no lynching, we eventually reach a state where a mislynch means immediate loss, and then we can only hope that we have some cop or other PR that have caught the whole scum-team for us, or that our reads have grown substantially better while hanging around, no-lynching. I do not like those chances.
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Vote Count 2.2
EFHW (1): faust
Not Voting (7): xeiron, Voltaire, jotheonah, Walrus, Eevee, EFHW, Archetype
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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So no one is bothered that faust targeted me after I said that would be negative utility for town? He says he had a slight suspicion. Protecting a random person (instead of himself) would have had more potential benefit than targeting me.
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I don't want no lynch. I am puzzled about how to proceed if we don't get flips, though.
yuma is it true that the green text is NOT indicative of alignment?
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Voltaire thought town!faust wouldn't use the redirection power, but since he DID my previous 2 questions remain unanswered. If he knew he had targeted me, why did he suggest that ashersky's kill could have been due to redirection? And why say that only town will be killed at night, when he says he thought I was scum?
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While you are chewing on that, I'm going to vote: Eevee. Mega-lurking after stating plans to be active. Shows up immediately but briefly when his absence is mentioned and when asked a direct question. He is also not scum-hunting.
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This game is too confusing, I have no idea what's going on. I was active as long as it stayed within my comfort zone. I probably shouldn't ever sign up for rmm again.
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
OK, cool. Thanks.
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Hey EFHW, your power is negative utility? Do you want a new one? We could lynch you! And test the everyone has two lives theory.
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Hm, that idea isn't appealing to me for some reason!
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I don't want no lynch. I am puzzled about how to proceed if we don't get flips, though.
yuma is it true that the green text is NOT indicative of alignment?
I cannot answer that question. I would encourage you to reread the two OPs. That has all of the information that I can give regarding alignment. Sorry if this is disappointing.
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Voltaire thought town!faust wouldn't use the redirection power, but since he DID my previous 2 questions remain unanswered. If he knew he had targeted me, why did he suggest that ashersky's kill could have been due to redirection? And why say that only town will be killed at night, when he says he thought I was scum?
1. I don't understand that question. Why wouldn't I suggest this?
2. My N1 action was obviously chosen before knowing about the two lives stuff. Now that this seems likely, I can adjust my play accordingly. So, I was talking only about future nights there.
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Voltaire thought town!faust wouldn't use the redirection power, but since he DID my previous 2 questions remain unanswered. If he knew he had targeted me, why did he suggest that ashersky's kill could have been due to redirection? And why say that only town will be killed at night, when he says he thought I was scum?
1. I don't understand that question. Why wouldn't I suggest this?
2. My N1 action was obviously chosen before knowing about the two lives stuff. Now that this seems likely, I can adjust my play accordingly. So, I was talking only about future nights there.
My first question has the assumption that there would not be more than one power that redirects kills. The second one confuses me b/c since you are willing to use the redirection power to possible kill another player, wouldn't that player possibly be scum? Isn't that why you used it? And why did you use it on me when I had explicitly said that town targeting me would trigger a negative utility?
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My first question has the assumption that there would not be more than one power that redirects kills. The second one confuses me b/c since you are willing to use the redirection power to possible kill another player, wouldn't that player possibly be scum? Isn't that why you used it? And why did you use it on me when I had explicitly said that town targeting me would trigger a negative utility?
I was willing to redirect kills, now with the new information I'm no longer sure that's the best plan. I used my power on you because I thought you were scum, and this of course would imply that you lied about the negative utility. Also, if it really was a negative utility, I figured at least we could confirm that.
You still haven't answered my question how you know that I targeted you.
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EFHW, is your power solely negative utility?
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
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My first question has the assumption that there would not be more than one power that redirects kills. The second one confuses me b/c since you are willing to use the redirection power to possible kill another player, wouldn't that player possibly be scum? Isn't that why you used it? And why did you use it on me when I had explicitly said that town targeting me would trigger a negative utility?
I was willing to redirect kills, now with the new information I'm no longer sure that's the best plan. I used my power on you because I thought you were scum, and this of course would imply that you lied about the negative utility. Also, if it really was a negative utility, I figured at least we could confirm that.
You still haven't answered my question how you know that I targeted you.
Well, I think that was reckless. I'm sorry I can't share any more details right now. Obviously, I was told that you targeted me. I have nothing else useful to share.
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
Um, Archetype? Care to explain?
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EFHW, is your power solely negative utility?
no
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Alright, here I am. My thoughts since last night:
I do think it is probable that we do all have second lives. It would make the game longer, the idea of a compulsive gladiator D1 in a 9p game makes more sense. It does seem likely that scum knew that ash would survive, which is probably why he got targeted again. There are other ways to explain this happening, like maybe some redirection jazz, or ash shooting himself(?). But probabilistically speaking it seems like somebody knew about it.
Here's the thing though: if all this is true, then how would we expect scum to react going into today? I would think that either they would be acting too "surprised", or not "surprised" enough, if you know what I mean.
Anyway this was my lens for rereading the beginning of D2.
EFHW's reaction reads natural to me. I don't think that Voltaire's flip confirms that he's town, but it's some evidence anyway. The fact that EFHW just comes out and says it sounds like something a confused person might say. If they're both scum, I guess she could be planting the seed in people's minds, but that seems like it would be clumsily done. And then she says scum "clearly knows" something else...it just gives me a towny feeling. Town points for EFHW.
Archetype...maybe a little heavy-handed. "I'm confused! Need mass-claim!" Still not sure what I think about Arch this game.
joth: Quite matter-of-fact. "Do we all have two lives?" "Guessing we all start off as secondaries and come back as Bluths." Idk joth, *do* we? But then, would scum be this blatant about it, if they did know beforehand. Hmmmm...landing pretty null here.
Volt seems maybe a little surer than he should about this...but he does have more information than the rest of us I guess. Immediately agrees with joth's two-lives speculation. I still think he should claim his new role and flavor if he's got one.
xeiron: Also quite confident. Seems quite sure about the first flip/second flip thing. Also quite quick to point out that Voltaire is not confirmed town. Slight overconfidence here, have some scum points.
Eevee's reaction seems good to me. Have some town points. Don't like the fact that his posting rate seems to have dropped off, but hey sometimes that's how it goes.
faust...faust, faust faust. I've had a bad feeling about him since D1, and I'm trying to be objective here. But I can't help but continue to feel bad about him. I found the vote on EFHW to be...indignant, I guess? It seems like he was initially too confused, then lashed out at EFHW for trying to puzzle it out, and then he seems too sure of himself..."obviously chosen before knowing about the two lives stuff". The claim I imagine is relatively worthless if there's a "true" claim underneath, and maybe he knew about that D1. Idk, it all just seems sort of like acting to me. I'm happy with a vote: faust for now.
faust to answer your question, I had a townier read on him, but my role is kind of weird and involves randomness, so it was a tricky decision to make.
And now, it's time for the tin-foil hat portion of this episode: COLOR-BASED SCUMSLIP ANALYSIS!
It looks like the first flip color for ash and Volt was GREEN. Fine.
ash's second flip color was DARK, NAVY BLUE.
I did wonder last night why we never got Asherskys alignment when he died (he flipped in green, but it never said that he was town).
I first thought green ment town, but now I thing it is just a confusing element added by the mod.
First flip is always in green (even for scum) the secon and final flip is in grey and states allignment.
I really think it looks like this: We have secondary characters (colored green regardless of alignment) that turn into good Bluths (colored purple) or evil Bluths (colored red presumably). And everyone keeps their wincon in the process.
So xeiron thought it was GREY, faust thought it was PURPLE. Now to the extent that I'm actually believing this silly argument, I think that implicates faust somewhat more than xeiron, as purple is a color that seems to be used traditionally for third-party roles, more-so than grey anyway. Maybe a SK? Ooh, and faust was the one who accused me D1 of a "3rd party slip" for mentioning that I felt like the "3rd party" for holding the hammer? That could be a double reverse guilty conscience scumslip accusation scumslip! :P
Definitely not no-lynch. I don't get why people push for no-lynches all the time. They're so boring!
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Vote Count 2.3
EFHW (1): faust
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
Eevee (1): EFHW
Not Voting (4): xeiron, Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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yuma you missed my Eevee vote
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yuma you missed my Eevee vote
thanks, fixed
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
Um, Archetype? Care to explain?
I'm fairly certain Walrus is Town and feel like this is scum!faust fishing for information.
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So xeiron thought it was GREY, faust thought it was PURPLE. Now to the extent that I'm actually believing this silly argument, I think that implicates faust somewhat more than xeiron, as purple is a color that seems to be used traditionally for third-party roles, more-so than grey anyway. Maybe a SK? Ooh, and faust was the one who accused me D1 of a "3rd party slip" for mentioning that I felt like the "3rd party" for holding the hammer? That could be a double reverse guilty conscience scumslip accusation scumslip! :P
Now of course you couldn't know, but it does seem kind of harsh to pull this on someone with dyschromatopsia.
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
Um, Archetype? Care to explain?
I'm fairly certain Walrus is Town and feel like this is scum!faust fishing for information.
And what makes you so certain that Walrus is town?
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faust...faust, faust faust. I've had a bad feeling about him since D1, and I'm trying to be objective here. But I can't help but continue to feel bad about him. I found the vote on EFHW to be...indignant, I guess? It seems like he was initially too confused, then lashed out at EFHW for trying to puzzle it out, and then he seems too sure of himself..."obviously chosen before knowing about the two lives stuff". The claim I imagine is relatively worthless if there's a "true" claim underneath, and maybe he knew about that D1. Idk, it all just seems sort of like acting to me. I'm happy with a vote: faust for now.
SO the whole reason for your vote is that you feel bad about me? How am I "too sure of myself"? Care to give me something I can actually respond to? And what does the bolded sentence even mean?
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vote: Jotheonah.
He have been trying to spread doubt about players;
Not sure what to make of this at all. My gut reaction is to not believe ashersky, but I'm not all about gut reactions. Nonetheless, my conclusion about early ash semi-claims is not to act on them one way or another. No town cred, etc. Whatever scum!ash might have hoped to gain from the claim, we should be careful not to offer. If ash does anything to earn town cred down the line, maybe we give some more weight to the claim.
Not a fan of the day 1 mass claim, as per usual.
is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
Works for whom, that's the question.
And he have proposed lynches that is not really the best for eliminating scum.
You know what,
Vote:ashersky
Last game, he claimed off the bat, got town cred for it, and survived off that cred until the end of the game -- despite many people voicing concerns over his towniness. The fact is, FoSes without votes are just fine for scum.
Let's try lynching him this time! Even if he's town, at least we're not losing a useful power role.
Hey EFHW, your power is negative utility? Do you want a new one? We could lynch you! And test the everyone has two lives theory.
In general, it seems to me like Jotheonah is looking for reasons to lynch people, not looking for scum.
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
Um, Archetype? Care to explain?
I'm fairly certain Walrus is Town and feel like this is scum!faust fishing for information.
And what makes you so certain that Walrus is town?
Because he targeted Voltaire.
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I will have more time to collect my thoughts later today, but for now I will say that yes, I did target Voltaire last night.
When targeting Voltaire, did you think that he was scum or that he was town?
Vote: faust
Um, Archetype? Care to explain?
I'm fairly certain Walrus is Town and feel like this is scum!faust fishing for information.
And what makes you so certain that Walrus is town?
Because he targeted Voltaire.
Why wouldn't scum target Voltaire?
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I didn't know it was fishing season.
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I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. If this is some kind of secret case, at least say that it's a secret case.
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So Archetype have some sorts of results that indicate Walrus is town...
That is interesting.
Town points for them both in my book.
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I'd vote jotheonah if there is interest. He has not been his usual self.
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Sorry, I've had a lot going on IRL. ANd for some reason this game is just not working for me. I have zero scum reads.
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Sorry, I've had a lot going on IRL. ANd for some reason this game is just not working for me. I have zero scum reads.
Do you have any townreads?
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Voltaire? Maybe Archetype?
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this game is really dragging. Don't we have a deadline soon?
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I see the deadline is Friday. I felt like more days had gone by. Talk people!
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Vote Count 2.4
EFHW (1): faust
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
Eevee (1): EFHW
jotheonah (1): xeiron
Not Voting (3): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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Voltaire? Maybe Archetype?
What makes Voltaire your town read? Weren't you voting for him last Day?
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Also, I'm less sure on EFHW. At least, she seems to push the game along, and we kind of need that. Also her latest posts read townier to me. Speaking of pushing the game along, where is Voltaire?
At this point, I could change my vote to jotheonah or Voltaire. Maybe Eevee, though his "I don't understand this, I'm out of here" seemed genuine to me.
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I didn't know it was fishing season.
You know, you were the one starting to fish for information with your question, and you never explained why this was important.
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Ok, let's see if we can't liven things up. I am a dayvig. I very much want to shoot, but have not had a target I felt good about. I think my shot could be a fine and useful tool for town to ensure we get an actual flip (i.e. if you lynch someone other than me, I can shoot them and then we can lynch them again if we want to).
So I am now soliciting suggestions on who to shoot.
This, by the way, is the explanation for a lot of my weird play. Asking EFHW if she would be ok with dying to get rid of her negative utility role, asking everyone for a lynch choice outside of the challenge, even lessening my participation -- I've been trying hard not to paint a target on my head so I could survive long enough to use my power.
Now that I'm outed, though, I'd really really like to use it today.
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Also, I'm less sure on EFHW. At least, she seems to push the game along, and we kind of need that. Also her latest posts read townier to me. Speaking of pushing the game along, where is Voltaire?
At this point, I could change my vote to jotheonah or Voltaire. Maybe Eevee, though his "I don't understand this, I'm out of here" seemed genuine to me.
Townpoints to EFHW, and also yourself for trying to keep the game going.
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Ok, let's see if we can't liven things up. I am a dayvig. I very much want to shoot, but have not had a target I felt good about. I think my shot could be a fine and useful tool for town to ensure we get an actual flip (i.e. if you lynch someone other than me, I can shoot them and then we can lynch them again if we want to).
So I am now soliciting suggestions on who to shoot.
This, by the way, is the explanation for a lot of my weird play. Asking EFHW if she would be ok with dying to get rid of her negative utility role, asking everyone for a lynch choice outside of the challenge, even lessening my participation -- I've been trying hard not to paint a target on my head so I could survive long enough to use my power.
Now that I'm outed, though, I'd really really like to use it today.
A dayvig, that's interesting.
My list of lynch candidates today consists of Eevee and yourself. I suppose you will not shoot yourself, but what do you think about Eevee?
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I barely remembered he was in this game, which I have to say, doesn't look great.
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Rubs his hands together with glee
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This game is too confusing, I have no idea what's going on. I was active as long as it stayed within my comfort zone. I probably shouldn't ever sign up for rmm again.
Should you ask for a sub then? This game is too small to have you just opt out.
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This game is too confusing, I have no idea what's going on. I was active as long as it stayed within my comfort zone. I probably shouldn't ever sign up for rmm again.
Should you ask for a sub then? This game is too small to have you just opt out.
This. And prod: Eevee.
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This game is too confusing, I have no idea what's going on. I was active as long as it stayed within my comfort zone. I probably shouldn't ever sign up for rmm again.
Should you ask for a sub then? This game is too small to have you just opt out.
This. And prod: Eevee.
I would encourage all players to stay in the game if at all possible as subbing into this game is not as ideal as in others. Reminder that /outs are only acceptable via PM and that no replacements will be subbed in after Night2. If anyone /outs after that period they will simply be mod-killed. A prod for Eevee has been sent.
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Hey everyone, back from an announced V/LA. Huge town read on joth due to the claim, it's just not something scum pulls off, he'd have to not shoot to get away with it, and scum!dayvig is just insane (I guess less insane if everyone has two lives but really).
Walrus, twice you have now asked me to claim my new flavor and role. Why?
I still have a town read on faust (claim/play). Same with EFHW for driving game forward, not a good lynch choice for us. That leaves me looking at Walrus, xeiron, Archetype, and Eevee. xeiron has not done much other than theory but that's normal for him. Last of the four. Walrus, Archetype, Eevee then.
So...how can we use joth's dayvig. Decide someone to lynch, but not lynch them, then he shoots them, then we decide if we actually want to lynch them?
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that's sort of what i was thinking.
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The only thing I am thinking, though, is what are we hoping to gain by doing that...we get to speculate if their "first" flip makes them more/less likely to be whatever alignment. We can make them perma-dead instead of an actual lynch (probably)...that is a huge benefit, actually. OK, I like this. Pending anyone noticing a flaw or something.
Right now I want to hear from Walrus on why he thinks I should claim.
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So...how can we use joth's dayvig. Decide someone to lynch, but not lynch them, then he shoots them, then we decide if we actually want to lynch them?
I think this is the best plan.
We should try to have the dayvig happen two or three days before the deadline, so that we have time to take flip, new role, etc into account before we decide who to lynch.
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Voltaire, see how jotheonah uses his role? That's exactly how you should have used yours D1! Letting the whole town discuss your target instead of just blindly shooting.
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Voltaire, see how jotheonah uses his role? That's exactly how you should have used yours D1! Letting the whole town discuss your target instead of just blindly shooting.
:P
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I still have a town read on faust (claim/play). Same with EFHW for driving game forward, not a good lynch choice for us. That leaves me looking at Walrus, xeiron, Archetype, and Eevee. xeiron has not done much other than theory but that's normal for him. Last of the four. Walrus, Archetype, Eevee then.
I am not sure if you have noticed, but Archetype asked us all if anybody targeted Voltaire N1. Walrus did (and probably Ashersky).
Archetype did not say much more, except that the conclusion was a strong townread on Walrus.
What do you think of that?
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What do you think of that?
Not sure yet. Pending Walrus's answer to my question.
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I would like to hear everybody's opinion on vigging eevee.
Do we have other good candidates?
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I would like to hear everybody's opinion on vigging eevee.
Do we have other good candidates?
Well, Walrus and Archetype, right now.
Eevee is a good choice, I am just thinking about how he would behave if scum and overwhelmed. Or rather if he would be overwhelmed.
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Unless Archetype states why he asked that question about Voltaire, he's more scummy in my book. Because THAT is fishing for information.
Right now, I am against vigging Eevee. What reason is there besides POE? And I don't think POE can work well enough to be a sole reason for a kill on D2.
Archetype and EFHW are still valuable vigging targets I think (especially EFHW, who is claimed negative utility). Maybe xeiron, although I'm getting a town vibe there.
This by the way rises the question: EFHW, should jotheonah target you, will this lead to negative utility for town (other than you dying)?
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I would like to hear everybody's opinion on vigging eevee.
Do we have other good candidates?
Well, Walrus and Archetype, right now.
Eevee is a good choice, I am just thinking about how he would behave if scum and overwhelmed. Or rather if he would be overwhelmed.
Haven't we agreed that scum probably knew about the two lives stuff already? Why would scum!Eevee be overwhelmed now?
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Why would scum!Eevee be overwhelmed now?
Exactly. It's either feigning it, or Eevee is town.
Basically Eevee is a great choice because he's null but a bad choice because he feels like the "easy" choice.
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Why would scum!Eevee be overwhelmed now?
Exactly. It's either feigning it, or Eevee is town.
Basically Eevee is a great choice because he's null but a bad choice because he feels like the "easy" choice.
Yes. I'd say the least we should do is wait if he shows up or outs and then give him or his replacement a chance to talk
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Unless Archetype states why he asked that question about Voltaire, he's more scummy in my book. Because THAT is fishing for information.
Right now, I am against vigging Eevee. What reason is there besides POE? And I don't think POE can work well enough to be a sole reason for a kill on D2.
Archetype and EFHW are still valuable vigging targets I think (especially EFHW, who is claimed negative utility). Maybe xeiron, although I'm getting a town vibe there.
This by the way rises the question: EFHW, should jotheonah target you, will this lead to negative utility for town (other than you dying)?
At this point, it would lead to a negative outcome for town, yes (other than the sad occurrence of my death, of course).
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I would like to hear everybody's opinion on vigging eevee.
Do we have other good candidates?
Well, Walrus and Archetype, right now.
Eevee is a good choice, I am just thinking about how he would behave if scum and overwhelmed. Or rather if he would be overwhelmed.
I don't think scum!Eevee would be overwhelmed. He would say he was, though. It's hard to have a case on someone who has posted so little. I will have some time later this afternoon to reread him.
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Well, this pretty much takes EFHW out of the pool.
For Walrus, there's the thing with Archetype. While I'm not sure about Archetype's alignment, I think it indicates Walrus being town. Archetype is either having some sort of result on him or lies about that, and if he lies, I don't think it is to clear his partner, that would be a pretty bold move.
xeiron, I don't know. POE speaks against him a little, I guess. Still my gut feeling says he's town.
Archetype is a little scummy I guess, but it all comes down to what all that about stating who targeted Voltaire was all about.
Eevee, as said, I'm not a big fan of. Not for now at least.
Voltaire... what about Voltaire? If we vig him, we get a definite flip, and have something to evaluate what happened on D1.
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Unless Archetype states why he asked that question about Voltaire, he's more scummy in my book. Because THAT is fishing for information.
Right now, I am against vigging Eevee. What reason is there besides POE? And I don't think POE can work well enough to be a sole reason for a kill on D2.
POE is my main reason, and of course it can work. If there are resons thats makes everybody else than eevee is a bad choice, then Eevee becomes a good choice.
Archetype and EFHW are still valuable vigging targets I think (especially EFHW, who is claimed negative utility). Maybe xeiron, although I'm getting a town vibe there.
To claim a role that might have negative utility when targeted by town, is not necessary the same as a negative utility role.
This by the way rises the question: EFHW, should jotheonah target you, will this lead to negative utility for town (other than you dying)?
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So xeiron thought it was GREY, faust thought it was PURPLE. Now to the extent that I'm actually believing this silly argument, I think that implicates faust somewhat more than xeiron, as purple is a color that seems to be used traditionally for third-party roles, more-so than grey anyway. Maybe a SK? Ooh, and faust was the one who accused me D1 of a "3rd party slip" for mentioning that I felt like the "3rd party" for holding the hammer? That could be a double reverse guilty conscience scumslip accusation scumslip! :P
Now of course you couldn't know, but it does seem kind of harsh to pull this on someone with dyschromatopsia.
...which is exactly what I would expect scum to say in this situation. Here I'll test you: What color shirt am I wearing??? :P
By "the claim is relatively worthless", I meant that if indeed all of us have two lives, and scum knew about it already, then they might feel more comfortable claiming if they know there's a second life and role afterwards. I found your claim D1 to be kind of weird even at the time.
And I thought I was pretty clear. Like you say, "wouldn't scum!Eevee have known about it, why would he be overwhelmed?" Well he wouldn't actually be, but he might pretend to be. That was what I was looking for when rereading...people who seemed like they already knew what was happening, either by seeming too sure of themselves, or not sure enough. It seemed to me like you went from "not sure enough" to "too sure" too quickly, and the fact that you ask about Eevee now sounds like swinging back to false naïveté.
Voltaire, I asked at first because to me it seemed like it would be the most pro-town thing to do. We're all operating at 1.5 datapoints, knowing ash's two flips and your one. 2 data points would be really nice and might shed more light on what's really going on, especially if scum already knows. And then the way you reacted the first time felt weird to me--"Absolutely not." Like, why absolutely not? Are you hiding something? Do you see no value in claiming to help illuminate things?
Cool, a dayvig! I say go for it, I certainly would if it were me. Vigs gonna vig.
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Voltaire, I asked at first because to me it seemed like it would be the most pro-town thing to do. We're all operating at 1.5 datapoints, knowing ash's two flips and your one. 2 data points would be really nice and might shed more light on what's really going on, especially if scum already knows. And then the way you reacted the first time felt weird to me--"Absolutely not." Like, why absolutely not? Are you hiding something? Do you see no value in claiming to help illuminate things?
What I am saying is, what makes me claiming positive and a massclaim bad? Or are you against a massclaim?
Do you see what I am saying - what is your compelling reason to want me to claim specifically?
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I meant "or are you for a massclaim" but hopefully my point came across anyway.
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I'm not sure how I feel about a massclaim. I guess it could be ok, but I'm not sure how much good it would do if everyone has double roles. It would seem kind of pointless and possibly might just benefit scum.
On the other hand, you have a "true" second role that you now know about. I think there is a difference there. If you don't want to claim, fine, it just seemed like a good idea to me.
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So xeiron thought it was GREY, faust thought it was PURPLE. Now to the extent that I'm actually believing this silly argument, I think that implicates faust somewhat more than xeiron, as purple is a color that seems to be used traditionally for third-party roles, more-so than grey anyway. Maybe a SK? Ooh, and faust was the one who accused me D1 of a "3rd party slip" for mentioning that I felt like the "3rd party" for holding the hammer? That could be a double reverse guilty conscience scumslip accusation scumslip! :P
Now of course you couldn't know, but it does seem kind of harsh to pull this on someone with dyschromatopsia.
...which is exactly what I would expect scum to say in this situation. Here I'll test you: What color shirt am I wearing??? :P
Purple!
By "the claim is relatively worthless", I meant that if indeed all of us have two lives, and scum knew about it already, then they might feel more comfortable claiming if they know there's a second life and role afterwards. I found your claim D1 to be kind of weird even at the time.
I might be biased here, but I think it's actually vice versa. If I fakeclaimed and then was killed and flipped some other role, you guys would instantly lynch me again (and rightly so). Or do you think I am actually scum with the role I claimed?
And I thought I was pretty clear. Like you say, "wouldn't scum!Eevee have known about it, why would he be overwhelmed?" Well he wouldn't actually be, but he might pretend to be. That was what I was looking for when rereading...people who seemed like they already knew what was happening, either by seeming too sure of themselves, or not sure enough. It seemed to me like you went from "not sure enough" to "too sure" too quickly, and the fact that you ask about Eevee now sounds like swinging back to false naïveté.
What benefit is there for scum!Eevee in pretending to be overwhelmed and dropping out of the game?
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I'm not sure how I feel about a massclaim. I guess it could be ok, but I'm not sure how much good it would do if everyone has double roles. It would seem kind of pointless and possibly might just benefit scum.
Can you give actual reasons here? Why would it be pointless? How might it benefit scum?
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Hahaha it is blue actually. So that checks out.
My point is, if everyone has two DIFFERENT roles, that would have been nothing for you to worry about. ash flipped the redirector guy and then a vig. So you could claim your first role without much concern, even if your second role was something more sinister...even if you got lynched you could say "Look! I was telling the truth!"
I actually thought Eevee's reaction was on the townier side, I was just using him in that example. I used to think that subbing out was basically a town tell, but wasn't there a scum substitute in Grimm for example? I wasn't actually in that game.
It might be pointless for reasons I described above. Everyone would just claim their first role. Even if they get killed it's no problem because they'll still flip right, so there's little risk. And then scum might be able to use the revealed information to confound night actions and stuff.
That makes me wonder, if everyone has two roles, how would that affect investigative actions? Would they see "through" to the second role/flavor or not? That could be interesting.
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Ok, reread Eevee and unvote. We need him to be a more active player, though!
Who does that leave? Lacking scum reads, I'll eliminate my townreads: Voltaire, faust (despite my disappointment in his decisions), jotheonah. That leaves xeiron, Archetype, Walrus. None of them have a ton of posts, so I'll reread them, too.
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Faust: Me explaining would out Walrus's Role, which I'm not sure he'd want me to do.
EFHW: Are you a Nexus? Or a varient thereof?
My Dayvig choices would be Faust or Voltaire. Coincidentally, they are my most favorable lynches. I also really really approve of a massclaim.
Yes to massclaim.
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Purple!
You called?
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I hadn't gotten to read after my last post, our internet was down (and won't be fixed
for a couple of days), so I need to go to a starbucks to get online.
Townread on joth, as Voltaire explained dayvig is simply a claim more likely to come from town. I'd
propose shooting xeiron, his contributions to scumhunting seem scarce, despite a reasonable activity level. Archetype-walrus connection is interesting, I'm leaning both town. Why do we think efhw is town again?
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My point is, if everyone has two DIFFERENT roles, that would have been nothing for you to worry about. ash flipped the redirector guy and then a vig. So you could claim your first role without much concern, even if your second role was something more sinister...even if you got lynched you could say "Look! I was telling the truth!"
The point is, we have to figure out which of the claimed roles make sense as scum roles and which don't.
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Massclaim vote count 0.1
NO: jotheonah, xeiron, Voltaire
YES: faust, Archetype
Not voting: EFHW, Eevee, Walrus
Hope I didn't miss anything. jotheonah, has your opinion on a massclaim changed now that you are outed?
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EFHW: Are you a Nexus? Or a varient thereof?
I didn't know it was fishing season.
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I don't mind a mass claim if if the group consensus. You guys understand theory better than I do here.
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It might be pointless for reasons I described above. Everyone would just claim their first role. Even if they get killed it's no problem because they'll still flip right, so there's little risk. And then scum might be able to use the revealed information to confound night actions and stuff.
If everyone claims their true role, a massclaim is the exact opposite of useless. If we know everyone's roles, including the scum roles, everyone can be held accountible for their actions, and scum is no longer really able to use their roles against town.
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Why are you assuming scum wouldn't lie?
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Why are you assuming scum wouldn't lie?
Because if they get killed, we know they lied. And when they get to their second life, we'll just lynch them.
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Why are you assuming scum wouldn't lie?
Because if they get killed, we know they lied. And when they get to their second life, we'll just lynch them.
Well this puts things much more clearly. Move me to the "yes" camp then!
Also I've done something wrong in my assumptions, because if the Archetype/Walrus link is taken to mean they're more likely town then Eevee is left as my choice for the dayvig shot and I don't like that very much.
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I am also starting to like the thought of a massclaim.
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Why not xeiron, Vlotaire?
His insistence on massclaim could be very scummy if there is some mechanic we don't know of (which I think is actually quite likely). I'm just saying the scum narrative is there.
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Why not xeiron, Vlotaire?
I mean, yeah, I suppose he would still be a fine choice. It's just that town!xeiron only ever talks about theory/roles/related stuff and that's all he's doing here. He's also incredibly sharp (watching him almost solve my RMM game was amazing).
Has xeiron ever been scum? Any recent games?
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I see the theory behind the massclaim idea, and cautiously agree it could be helpful in general, but it will not be helpful at all for me to claim today, and maybe not tomorrow. I don't want to be uncooperative, but there's nothing for town to gain by knowing, but there would be benefit to scum.
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I'm looking at Walrus. I'll get back to you if I find anything noteworthy.
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I see the theory behind the massclaim idea, and cautiously agree it could be helpful in general, but it will not be helpful at all for me to claim today, and maybe not tomorrow. I don't want to be uncooperative, but there's nothing for town to gain by knowing, but there would be benefit to scum.
Town can gain something by knowing.
We gain information that can help us decide your allignment, and maybe even solve the setup.
And if it turns out that your role does not give any indication of allignment at all, then that is information in itself.
That said, you might be right that in your case scum will have even more benefit.
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Astute mods like yuma try to create their games so that massclaim isn't good for town for as long as possible. I think there might be hidden mechanics we don't know of, mechanics that protect scum from getting outed via a massclaim. I see what xeiron is saying, but we don't know the whole setup and massclaim might also totally kill us.
My role is also kind of scummy, but it's not the only reason I'm trying to make you guys consider the other side as well.
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along those lines, flips don't tell you everything about a role, and mafia could modify aspects of their roles without being discovered.
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Eevee - you seem to have changed your position on mass claim?
Astute mods like yuma try to create their games so that massclaim isn't good for town for as long as possible. I think there might be hidden mechanics we don't know of, mechanics that protect scum from getting outed via a massclaim. I see what xeiron is saying, but we don't know the whole setup and massclaim might also totally kill us.
My role is also kind of scummy, but it's not the only reason I'm trying to make you guys consider the other side as well.
I have no idea what all of this means. I feel the mechanics make scumhunting and taking reads significantly harder. I wouldn't oppose a massclaim.
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Why not xeiron, Vlotaire?
I mean, yeah, I suppose he would still be a fine choice. It's just that town!xeiron only ever talks about theory/roles/related stuff and that's all he's doing here. He's also incredibly sharp (watching him almost solve my RMM game was amazing).
Has xeiron ever been scum? Any recent games?
New mafia 3 and f.ds Meta mafia are my two scum games.
Both short games for me as NM3 was aborted D2, and in Meta Mafia, I was killed N1.
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Astute mods like yuma try to create their games so that massclaim isn't good for town for as long as possible. I think there might be hidden mechanics we don't know of, mechanics that protect scum from getting outed via a massclaim. I see what xeiron is saying, but we don't know the whole setup and massclaim might also totally kill us.
My role is also kind of scummy, but it's not the only reason I'm trying to make you guys consider the other side as well.
I think a mass claim here is actually less likely to totally kill us because we get new roles, so scum doesn't know the whole story.
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Astute mods like yuma try to create their games so that massclaim isn't good for town for as long as possible. I think there might be hidden mechanics we don't know of, mechanics that protect scum from getting outed via a massclaim. I see what xeiron is saying, but we don't know the whole setup and massclaim might also totally kill us.
My role is also kind of scummy, but it's not the only reason I'm trying to make you guys consider the other side as well.
Hidden mechanics is always a risk we face. It's a coint that might flip both ways. There may be mechanics thats punish early massclaims, but sometimes there are also games where massclaims are a great benefit for town if they happen early enough. by waiting we might let such a chance wait.
There have been bad massclaims, but cannot remember any games on f.ds where a unlucky massclaim totally kills town. Have there been any?
As for this game, I think town will be in good shape either way. I said I like the thought of a massclaim, but I should possibly add that I like the thought of not massclaiming as well.
I like our chances of befitting from a massclaim. I think more often than not we will be better of, and if we are lucky this can help us towards a quick win( i.e flawless from this point on).
On the the other hand, we do risk less by not claiming, and I think the game will turn in a more memorable and fun direction if that is our choice.
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I'm still pretty ambiguous about a massclaim. I personally don't have any problem with revealing my role (apparently Arch knows something about it already), but I'm still not sure it will do us a whole lot of good. I'm still imagining that scum claims their first role, just like everybody else, and we didn't really learn a whole lot. Sure, scum is less able to lie about night actions and stuff...but I know that a couple roles already claimed, as well as my own, involve randomness in some way. So I don't know if even that would net us a whole lot of definitive good.
That being said, if a massclaim is the consensus I'm happy to go along. Maybe it'll keep the game moving at least.
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Eevee - you seem to have changed your position on mass claim?
Astute mods like yuma try to create their games so that massclaim isn't good for town for as long as possible. I think there might be hidden mechanics we don't know of, mechanics that protect scum from getting outed via a massclaim. I see what xeiron is saying, but we don't know the whole setup and massclaim might also totally kill us.
My role is also kind of scummy, but it's not the only reason I'm trying to make you guys consider the other side as well.
I have no idea what all of this means. I feel the mechanics make scumhunting and taking reads significantly harder. I wouldn't oppose a massclaim.
I'm just trying to bring forth the arguments for both sides. I'm not really sure what side I'm leaning towards, but I definitely think yuma anticipated us considering a massclaim and tweaked the setup accordingly.
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Vote Count 2.5
EFHW (1): faust
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
jotheonah (1): xeiron
Not Voting (4): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee, EFHW
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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I'm still pretty ambiguous about a massclaim. I personally don't have any problem with revealing my role (apparently Arch knows something about it already), but I'm still not sure it will do us a whole lot of good. I'm still imagining that scum claims their first role, just like everybody else, and we didn't really learn a whole lot. Sure, scum is less able to lie about night actions and stuff...but I know that a couple roles already claimed, as well as my own, involve randomness in some way. So I don't know if even that would net us a whole lot of definitive good.
Which roles are you referring to?
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My role and ash's vertigo thing, and then I was thinking of yours too but I guess I misremembered it.
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If we want to massclaim, we need to start soon. Only 2,5 days to deadline. And we have a dayvig that will take some of that time.
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I see the theory behind the massclaim idea, and cautiously agree it could be helpful in general, but it will not be helpful at all for me to claim today, and maybe not tomorrow. I don't want to be uncooperative, but there's nothing for town to gain by knowing, but there would be benefit to scum.
If we decide on a massclaim, will you claim?
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If we want to massclaim, we need to start soon. Only 2,5 days to deadline. And we have a dayvig that will take some of that time.
xeiron is very right here.
I do not see any strong opposition to a massclaim anymore. So we do it? Everyone who is strongly opposing a massclaim should speak up in their next post.
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I see the theory behind the massclaim idea, and cautiously agree it could be helpful in general, but it will not be helpful at all for me to claim today, and maybe not tomorrow. I don't want to be uncooperative, but there's nothing for town to gain by knowing, but there would be benefit to scum.
If we decide on a massclaim, will you claim?
No, unless what we learn changes something. Tomorrow I think I will be able to.
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I'm ok with the rest of us claiming, if they are willing to let me wait until it is ok for me to claim.
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I don't really care when I claim as long as its after Walrus.
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I'm ok with the rest of us claiming, if they are willing to let me wait until it is ok for me to claim.
I say everyone or no-one claim
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Still ok with a massclaim, I would be willing to let EFHW wait.
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You know, the most helpful part of my role has already been outed, so I'd be willing to partial claim and to make up for it being partial I'd be willing to go first.
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My take on who to kill.
Jotheonah is the vig, and is not shooting himself.
We should not vig Walrus, because Archetype have soft-claimed a towny result on Walrus.
We should not vig Archetype for the same reason. I find Archetype towny for investigating further on his results on his own without involving the rest of the town more than neccessary.
If Archetype is faking his results, he will have problems with explaining himself later in the game.
We should not vig Faust, because he has been the main contributer in driving the game along D2. He is also a protective role. One that would be pretty useless for scum to have.
We should not vig EFHW, because she said bad things will happen if we do.
That leaves Voltaire, Eevee and me.
I think Voltaire is town and eevee scum, but I am not very confident on either.
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I think Voltaire is town and eevee scum, but I am not very confident on either.
Why do you think Eevee is scum?
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I think we should hear Archtype's reasoning before giving Walrus a pass.
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Let's do this then!
This is the claim order I propose:
EFHW partial claim
Eevee
Voltaire
Archetype, + result about Walrus
Walrus
xeiron
jotheonah (in case there's something he didn't claim yet)
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I'd rather Archetype and then Walrus go after me, if that's agreeable to everyone.
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Fine by me.
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I'm back. I'm down with the mass claim in this case. But if it takes too long I'm probably going to go ahead and shoot Evey.
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Fine by me. Arch said he'd rather go after me, but I don't care one way or the other. Either way we should sort of hurry up though, especially what with the potential dayvig to look at.
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Fine by me. Arch said he'd rather go after me, but I don't care one way or the other. Either way we should sort of hurry up though, especially what with the potential dayvig to look at.
Arch should go before you. EFHW should start claiming.
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I am a two-shot Commuter. I commuted last night. If I commute, I am informed of one person who targeted me. If more than one person targets me, I am told the person whose action was earliest in the resolution chain. Also if I am targeted a one day-one night negative utility is triggered for town.
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Also if I am targeted a one day-one night negative utility is triggered for town.
Are you aware of what it is and choosing not to tell us, or are you only informed of the negative utility generically?
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I know and am not telling you. It's best left there, though I know it's hard to quell one's curiosity.
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That's fine for now, just wanted to know if you knew.
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Also if I am targeted a one day-one night negative utility is triggered for town.
You were targeted by faust last night. Does that mean there is a negative utility in effect right now?
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I'm a two shot temporary vanillazer. Twice in the game I can target someone at night and they'll become either vt or goon for that night.
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I am a "Sly Investigator". Each night I can target one player and a random one of "Follower, Tracker, Watcher, Voyeur" will be performed on them. I will know which one was performed before receiving my results back though.
Last night I targeted Voltaire and became a Voyeur. I got the results "Killing, Investigative, Protective". Killing is, well, whoever killed him (still assuming ashersky). Investigative is me. Protective is likely Town. I asked faust first because he is a claimed "Protective" role. He said he targeted EFHW though. Then I asked if people had targeted him, and Walrus said he did. So I figured that Walrus was Town with a Protective power, but saying that would could out him of his role.
I asked is EFHW was a Nexus just in case faust's Bodyguard got redirected from EFHW to Voltaire.
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I'm Steve Holt. STEVE HOLT!
My ability is Dumb Jock. This means I can target a player, and they will be randomly doctored, jailkept, or roleblocked that night. However I am not informed which of the three occurred.
I was fairly puzzled about this role. Is it better to use on a town- or scumread, or not at all? I settled on Voltaire, as he had gladiator'd ash's anti-townish power, and I figured it would be good to try to block him in case he was scum trying to use it.
I assumed that I had rolled roleblock, since Volt ended up getting shot. But now Arch's results raise some questions. Is it possible that some other factor was in play? Or maybe my action would show up as protective regardless of which of the three outcomes I got? Not sure.
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Oh, and I'd be interested in input as to how to best use my role. I can't stop kills, so either my role is very bad or scum has some nice abilities other than their night kills.
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Also if I am targeted a one day-one night negative utility is triggered for town.
You were targeted by faust last night. Does that mean there is a negative utility in effect right now?
Interested about this as well.
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Vote Count 2.6
EFHW (1): faust
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
jotheonah (1): xeiron
Not Voting (4): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee, EFHW
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time. That is in about 2 days.
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Ok. Two days.
Voltaire and xeiron, hurry and claim!
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Walrus, we're not claiming flavor dammit. I think they're connected to our second roles.
My (second) role is Overwhelmed CEO. I'm a cop, but I only get results if I'm not targeted at night.
And that's why I didn't want to claim. :P
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Also if I am targeted a one day-one night negative utility is triggered for town.
You were targeted by faust last night. Does that mean there is a negative utility in effect right now?
Interested about this as well.
yes
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doctor and jailkeeper are both protective roles. jailkeeper and roleblocker are both manipulative roles.
Arch, maybe you should ask if you would get both protective and manipulative if you voyeur a jailkeeping. Voltaire's death argues against Walrus using doctor.
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I'm a two shot temporary vanillazer. Twice in the game I can target someone at night and they'll become either vt or goon for that night.
did you use it last night?
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doctor and jailkeeper are both protective roles. jailkeeper and roleblocker are both manipulative roles.
Arch, maybe you should ask if you would get both protective and manipulative if you voyeur a jailkeeping. Voltaire's death argues against Walrus using doctor.
Asked.
I suppose your negative utility could be that everyone is Macho...? You sure you don't know what your negative utility-inducing power is?
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doctor and jailkeeper are both protective roles. jailkeeper and roleblocker are both manipulative roles.
Arch, maybe you should ask if you would get both protective and manipulative if you voyeur a jailkeeping. Voltaire's death argues against Walrus using doctor.
Asked.
I suppose your negative utility could be that everyone is Macho...? You sure you don't know what your negative utility-inducing power is?
Or rather, what it does?
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doctor and jailkeeper are both protective roles. jailkeeper and roleblocker are both manipulative roles.
Arch, maybe you should ask if you would get both protective and manipulative if you voyeur a jailkeeping. Voltaire's death argues against Walrus using doctor.
Asked.
I suppose your negative utility could be that everyone is Macho...? You sure you don't know what your negative utility-inducing power is?
Or rather, what it does?
I'm dumb. Totally missed that you said you wouldn't tell us.
Eevee's role is very weird btw. Interested to see what xeiron claims.
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Since we're in a hurry, let me claim in xeiron's place.
xeiron is a Rolecopping Neighborizer. He targets one player each night, and creates a Neighborhood QT with them. The first post in this QT is by yuma, and will include a portion of of the role PM of the targeted player. The targeted player gets to know beforehand which portion of their PM will be quoted, and can choose to redact any parts from it that they wish.
Of course, xeiron targeted me last night. I think he is town because of that.
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By the way, the Neighborhood QTs xeiron creates are only unlocked at night.
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Eevee, EFHW, a question: Assume Eevee targets EFHW tonight, will there still be negative effects?
Eevee, did you use your role last night?
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How about a plan? We all agree to not target Voltaire - all except Archetype. He may choose to target Voltaire to find out if someone lied about not targeting him, or to find out if Voltaire lied.
Also, EFHW, I'm confused - does the negative utility always take effect when you're targeted, or only while you commute?
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Archetype, why did you target Voltaire?
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Since we're in a hurry, let me claim in xeiron's place.
xeiron is a Rolecopping Neighborizer. He targets one player each night, and creates a Neighborhood QT with them. The first post in this QT is by yuma, and will include a portion of of the role PM of the targeted player. The targeted player gets to know beforehand which portion of their PM will be quoted, and can choose to redact any parts from it that they wish.
Of course, xeiron targeted me last night. I think he is town because of that.
Confirming this.
I cannot quote the role PM snip, but the one I got from faust pretty much confirms the role he claimed back in D1.
I do also have a huge townread on faust after N1
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Killing cops is never good.
I still like shooting Eevee. He is essentially a roleblocker (maybe with some extra side effects, if there is some other mechanic that cares about vanilla/not vanilla). Roleblocker is a common scum power.
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Killing cops is never good.
I still like shooting Eevee. He is essentially a roleblocker (maybe with some extra side effects, if there is some other mechanic that cares about vanilla/not vanilla). Roleblocker is a common scum power.
I don't think we can argue along lines like "this role is likely scum" here, at least not with our primary roles. Remember ashersky, he had a really scummy role and was town. The way of thinking here is "which power would be too strong in scum hands" and "who used their power in a scummy way"?
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So it looks like this to me:
EFHW: used her power. Pretty null, as that would be a move I expect from both town and scum.
Voltaire: still think the way he used his first role was scummy. Now he claimed Cop, which makes me want to not lynch him. I hope we can confirm his role somehow. Voltaire is the only one of us who might have lied about his role though.
Eevee: It's a roleblocker+. decently strong for scum to have. Actually, quite strong. Makes me think it's less likely that Eevee is scum.
Archetype: Pretty null, targeting Voltaire with his role makes sense as any alignment I guess.
Walrus: Has a good reason to target Voltaire, though why did Voltaire die? Maybe it has something to do with ashersky's role ("Aid Required" maybe meaning the target only dies if someone else targets them as well)?
jotheonah: Dayvig is not too strong of a role to have for scum in this setup I think. Whether he uses it in a pro-town fashion remains to be seen.
xeiron: Has a role that is quite plausible for scum, especially the rolecopping part. But the fact that he targeted me makes me think it's less likely that he is scum, because scum would aleady know that he's telling the truth.
Out of everyone, I think I still like EFHW best as dayvig target. Maybe Archetype, but I think i he tells the truth, he might be useful for confirming Voltaire. Voltaire is possible, as is Eevee, but I like the other two better.
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I didn't use my role last night. I only have two shots and can't block kills, I thought the best utility would come later in the game.
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I think my role makes Voltaire's initial role scummier - vanillazer is relatively weak in town's hands but is something scum would really want. I hadn't realized this before.
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Eevee, EFHW, a question: Assume Eevee targets EFHW tonight, will there still be negative effects?
Let me rephrase this as a mod question.
If a Vanillaiser targets a role that has effects triggered on targeting, will these effects take place?
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I am toying with the idea of giving everyone a night target that can be confirmed by others. Only Voltaire will be free to target whoever he wants. I'll try to make the rest of us target each other in a way such that, should anyone not play their part, we will be notified of this. So we can make sure that Voltaire gets an investigation.
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Does Vanillaising take place before or after Commuting?
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Something like this might work:
faust bodyguards Voltaire
Eevee vanillaises faust
Archetype investigates Eevee
Walrus protects Archetype
xeiron rolecops Walrus
jotheonah does nothing (you don't have a night action, right?)
EFHW commutes or doesn't commute.
This is of course not yet including our lynch. But if it works, most people can confirm one other player's action, so scum can't secretly target Voltaire.
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I still like shooting Eevee. He is essentially a roleblocker (maybe with some extra side effects, if there is some other mechanic that cares about vanilla/not vanilla). Roleblocker is a common scum power.
I agree with this.
Faust is now basically IC to me with xeiron's result. Trying to sort through the other claims. The one that sticks out right now is if Walrus targeted me how did I die? Though I am wondering if this would explain ash's "aid-required" portion - if he had the opposite of my role (can only vig if someone also targets his target) that could make sense.
Though I suppose it would have to go through Walrus still...
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And now I see faust said the exact same thing. That's what I get for catching up piecemeal. :P
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I think my role makes Voltaire's initial role scummier - vanillazer is relatively weak in town's hands but is something scum would really want. I hadn't realized this before.
My original role was a way to preserve mislynched PRs. That's clearly the design intent.
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I am toying with the idea of giving everyone a night target that can be confirmed by others. Only Voltaire will be free to target whoever he wants. I'll try to make the rest of us target each other in a way such that, should anyone not play their part, we will be notified of this. So we can make sure that Voltaire gets an investigation.
I think I am ok with this...because everyone has to have told the truth about their roles. ie scum manipulation should be caught out in any good plan. I'm the only one who theoretically could have lied, so of course it makes sense to me. Anything that gives confidence to my results is good.
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Something like this might work:
faust bodyguards Voltaire
Eevee vanillaises faust
Archetype investigates Eevee
Walrus protects Archetype
xeiron rolecops Walrus
jotheonah does nothing (you don't have a night action, right?)
EFHW commutes or doesn't commute.
This is of course not yet including our lynch. But if it works, most people can confirm one other player's action, so scum can't secretly target Voltaire.
I am a little sceptical about this plan.
The Eevee, faust interaction sounds like a smart move, but it will not work if we kill eevee, as I think we should.
I think both Walrus and Archetype should be free to investigate who they wants. No need to tell scum who to make sure will not do the kill.
Walrus has 2/3 chance of protecting and 2/3 chance of roleblocking, so it works well for him to target both scum and town.
You have not included Voltaire, and I agree that he also should be free.
Is there a reason for me to target Walrus?, if not, I would like to target someone alse. Maybe Archetype.
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I am toying with the idea of giving everyone a night target that can be confirmed by others. Only Voltaire will be free to target whoever he wants. I'll try to make the rest of us target each other in a way such that, should anyone not play their part, we will be notified of this. So we can make sure that Voltaire gets an investigation.
I think I am ok with this...because everyone has to have told the truth about their roles. ie scum manipulation should be caught out in any good plan. I'm the only one who theoretically could have lied, so of course it makes sense to me. Anything that gives confidence to my results is good.
The main problem with Faust's plan is that both EFHW and Jotheonah is free to kill without being caught if they are scum.
I rather like that there would be a risk for scum whoever use their factional kill. This can be done by having Archetype target freely.
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I am toying with the idea of giving everyone a night target that can be confirmed by others. Only Voltaire will be free to target whoever he wants. I'll try to make the rest of us target each other in a way such that, should anyone not play their part, we will be notified of this. So we can make sure that Voltaire gets an investigation.
I think I am ok with this...because everyone has to have told the truth about their roles. ie scum manipulation should be caught out in any good plan. I'm the only one who theoretically could have lied, so of course it makes sense to me. Anything that gives confidence to my results is good.
The main problem with Faust's plan is that both EFHW and Jotheonah is free to kill without being caught if they are scum.
I rather like that there would be a risk for scum whoever use their factional kill. This can be done by having Archetype target freely.
Well, it would be great though to have a situation where we can say exactly who lied if Voltaire can't use his action. I guess that means we can have one role act freely though. Your action is confirmable no matter who you target, so that's no problem.
Alternative plan:
faust targets Voltaire
Eevee targets faust
Walrus targets xeiron
The rest are free to do whatever they please. Works only if we keep Eevee alive of course. But I'm getting a townie vibe there, so that's not a problem.
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Scratch that actually, let's just lynch/vig Voltaire. His role is no use to us, and could easily be a lie. Add that I found him scummy before.
Vote: Voltaire
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So it looks like this to me:
EFHW: used her power. Pretty null, as that would be a move I expect from both town and scum.
Voltaire: still think the way he used his first role was scummy. Now he claimed Cop, which makes me want to not lynch him. I hope we can confirm his role somehow. Voltaire is the only one of us who might have lied about his role though.
Eevee: It's a roleblocker+. decently strong for scum to have. Actually, quite strong. Makes me think it's less likely that Eevee is scum.
Archetype: Pretty null, targeting Voltaire with his role makes sense as any alignment I guess.
Walrus: Has a good reason to target Voltaire, though why did Voltaire die? Maybe it has something to do with ashersky's role ("Aid Required" maybe meaning the target only dies if someone else targets them as well)?
jotheonah: Dayvig is not too strong of a role to have for scum in this setup I think. Whether he uses it in a pro-town fashion remains to be seen.
xeiron: Has a role that is quite plausible for scum, especially the rolecopping part. But the fact that he targeted me makes me think it's less likely that he is scum, because scum would aleady know that he's telling the truth.
Out of everyone, I think I still like EFHW best as dayvig target. Maybe Archetype, but I think i he tells the truth, he might be useful for confirming Voltaire. Voltaire is possible, as is Eevee, but I like the other two better.
I agree that eevee has a strong role for scum, but not too strong this is essentially a 18-player game, and if there are 4 scum, they need strong powers to keep up.
It is not so strong for town, though. It would be worse to miskill EFHW, than Eevee.
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I agree that eevee has a strong role for scum, but not too strong this is essentially a 18-player game, and if there are 4 scum, they need strong powers to keep up.
It is not so strong for town, though. It would be worse to miskill EFHW, than Eevee.
Why? I don't think EFHW's role is particularly strong.
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Scratch that actually, let's just lynch/vig Voltaire. His role is no use to us, and could easily be a lie. Add that I found him scummy before.
Vote: Voltaire
I disagree. His role is very useful, except if the mafia kills him.
We are better off not lynching him.
If he is killed during the night, it's a mislynch we do not have to make.
If he goes untouched, he will give us a useful result.
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I agree that eevee has a strong role for scum, but not too strong this is essentially a 18-player game, and if there are 4 scum, they need strong powers to keep up.
It is not so strong for town, though. It would be worse to miskill EFHW, than Eevee.
Why? I don't think EFHW's role is particularly strong.
But it is negative utility for town to target her.
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I say Vote: eevee
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Scratch that actually, let's just lynch/vig Voltaire. His role is no use to us, and could easily be a lie. Add that I found him scummy before.
Vote: Voltaire
I disagree. His role is very useful, except if the mafia kills him.
We are better off not lynching him.
If he is killed during the night, it's a mislynch we do not have to make.
If he goes untouched, he will give us a useful result.
There are two possibilities:
1) We do not target Voltaire. Scum can easily kill him off if they think he's a threat.
2) We protect Voltaire. He does not get any results.
So how is his role useful?
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Well, alright, I guess we can keep him alive one more night, just to see what happens. But I honestly don't see good other targets...
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Was there a reason jotheonah is going to Vig today? Just because he wants to use it/confirms his role, or was it compulsive?
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Was there a reason jotheonah is going to Vig today? Just because he wants to use it/confirms his role, or was it compulsive?
That's a good question actually. I think we can keep jotheonah alive for one more night, so no need to hurry.
I guess I'm back to vote: EFHW then.
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EFHW, if scum targets you, will this have negative utility for town as well?
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Scratch that actually, let's just lynch/vig Voltaire. His role is no use to us, and could easily be a lie. Add that I found him scummy before.
Vote: Voltaire
I disagree. His role is very useful, except if the mafia kills him.
We are better off not lynching him.
If he is killed during the night, it's a mislynch we do not have to make.
If he goes untouched, he will give us a useful result.
There are two possibilities:
1) We do not target Voltaire. Scum can easily kill him off if they think he's a threat.
2) We protect Voltaire. He does not get any results.
So how is his role useful?
I think we should do 1)
Then there is two possibilities.
1a) Scum does not target Voltaire
This is useful for us because Voltaire gets a cop-result.
1b) Scum targets Voltaire.
This is useful for us because a role used on Voltaire is a role that is not used on anyone else that night.
In addition if he is killed, we will get the flip of one of the scummier players remaining without having to use a lynch on him.
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EFHW, if scum targets you, will this have negative utility for town as well?
'
yes. I was hoping to use the role as a cop, having town avoid targeting me, and scum wouldn't mind a negative utility for town, and it would be worth it if we found a scum. That didn't work out, though.
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I think Eevee's power would have no effect on me if I commute, but it would still trigger the negative utility.
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I think Eevee's power would have no effect on me if I commute, but it would still trigger the negative utility.
And if you don't commute?
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I'm going on a cruise, starting in a couple of hours. I don't know what the wifi situation will be like there, but worst case scenario is a complete VLA for the following four days.
This is bad news. Eevee, are you still around? Can you leave a reads list and a vote before you go?
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Walrus, we're not claiming flavor dammit. I think they're connected to our second roles.
My (second) role is Overwhelmed CEO. I'm a cop, but I only get results if I'm not targeted at night.
And that's why I didn't want to claim. :P
Voltaire who did you try to cop last night?
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Walrus, we're not claiming flavor dammit. I think they're connected to our second roles.
My (second) role is Overwhelmed CEO. I'm a cop, but I only get results if I'm not targeted at night.
And that's why I didn't want to claim. :P
Voltaire who did you try to cop last night?
Nobody, I had my original role last night, then was killed, then new role simultaneous with the start of today. That makes sense to me.
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I had ash's role last night, is what I mean, which I didn't use.
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right, of course. That does make sense.
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Archetype, why did you target Voltaire?
Because I wouldn't mind if any of my four powers would activate on him. If I Tracked/Followed him, I'd know if he used his negative utility power if he was Scum. If I Watched/Voyeured him, I'd see who'd kill if he was Town.
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I'm alright with vigging EFHW or Eevee. Same thing with lynch.
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I'm alright with vigging EFHW or Eevee. Same thing with lynch.
If I understand EFHW correctly, the negative utility will happend if we vig her, but not if we lynch her.
Because of this, I think we should Vig eevee, and then we can consider to lynch EFHW instead if we suspect her.
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Vote Count 2.7
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
Eevee (1): xeiron
EFHW (1): faust
Not Voting (4): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee, EFHW
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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I'm alright with vigging EFHW or Eevee. Same thing with lynch.
If I understand EFHW correctly, the negative utility will happend if we vig her, but not if we lynch her.
Because of this, I think we should Vig eevee, and then we can consider to lynch EFHW instead if we suspect her.
Fair enough. Eevee's power seems more like a Roleblocker than a Vanillizer, which is suspicious in itself.
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Eevee, EFHW, a question: Assume Eevee targets EFHW tonight, will there still be negative effects?
Let me rephrase this as a mod question.
If a Vanillaiser targets a role that has effects triggered on targeting, will these effects take place?
Does Vanillaising take place before or after Commuting?
Unfortunately, I am not able to answer either of these questions. Feel free to PM me if you have concerns about this.
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Walrus: your Jailkeeping power is considered Protective.
So I think it's very likely that Scum has a Strongman or EFHW makes people Macho. I don't think Walrus is lying.
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my negative utility didn't take effect until start of Day 2. It will be over after Night 2.
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ok, we're getting close to deadline here. I won't be on much tomorrow, unfortunately, so I'm putting my vote on Vote: Eevee, since his power is not very useful to town. Don't lynch me!
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or vig me.
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Vote Count 2.8
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
Eevee (2): xeiron, EFHW
EFHW (1): faust
Not Voting (3): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time. That is less than 24 hours from now. Keep in mind that your mod will be working until ~ 1 hour before the deadline. I'll be sure to get on before work, but won't have access to the forums until 7 pm at the earliest.
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Walrus: your Jailkeeping power is considered Protective.
So I think it's very likely that Scum has a Strongman or EFHW makes people Macho. I don't think Walrus is lying.
You realize that it was likely not scum who shot Voltaire, but ashersky?
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ok, we're getting close to deadline here. I won't be on much tomorrow, unfortunately, so I'm putting my vote on Vote: Eevee, since his power is not very useful to town. Don't lynch me!
You realize the reason you're voting for Eevee can be applied to argue for voting for you as well?
Don't hide behind "this role is not useful"! Do you think Eevee is scum? If yes, why do you think that?
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I'm alright with vigging EFHW or Eevee. Same thing with lynch.
If I understand EFHW correctly, the negative utility will happend if we vig her, but not if we lynch her.
Because of this, I think we should Vig eevee, and then we can consider to lynch EFHW instead if we suspect her.
Why do you think we should vig today?
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Hmmm, so, as I suspected this massclaim has only left me more confused than before. If everyone has two roles, then it seems to me that scum would have no reason to lie here. They would just claim their first role like everyone else. Why risk being uncovered and getting double lynched?
So there probably aren't any "fake" claims here. Then how do we sort through this? Would scum be given "scummy" roles for the first role? Or "towny" roles? What about their second role? I don't know. It kind of makes sense to me that scum's first roles might be townier, so that it would hold up better as an alibi. But that's getting pretty speculative.
I guess we could lynch based on how "dangerous" the roles seem. But that doesn't seem like a very fruitful way to me to actually hit scum.
All that being said, here's my impressions of the recent claims:
Archetype's claim rings true to me, and not just because it corroborates mine to some extent (excluding the mysterious fact that Volt was shot...). It seems like a nice parallel to my role, and the fact that he got semi-verified results is encouraging. So Arch has given me a good feeling lately.
Volt and EFHW sort of seem maybe like town roles that are put in place to balance a disincentive against claiming. Of the two, EFHW comes off a little scummier to me here, because of her insistence since D1 that she not be targeted...Volt tried to avoid claiming, perhaps so he might more effectively use his ability. On the other hand, it would be difficult to verify...so it's hard to say. But I think I lean town on both.
xeiron's power seems cool...null to towny I'd say.
faust I still don't like. Yes, bodyguard, very towny seeming power (for what that's worth). But it's the circumstances under which he claimed that still bother me. Such an early claim D1, and what, to defend ash? And now he is eager to claim about how he has revealed his PM to xeiron, for verification. It feels to me like he's been flaunting his claim since D1, perhaps with the foreknowledge that he would have a second. And maybe he wanted to defend ash for the towncred, knowing that ash was town.
I am also coming around to the idea that Eevee might be scum. The vanillizer thing strikes me as scummish for some reason. And the more I think about it, the less I like the drop-off in posting activity, which is excusable in itself, but also the "I just don't get it, you guys take it from here" sort of sentiment he was giving off. It sort of reminds me of caught theorel from Dynasty Warriors 1, when he was like "I'm too sick to think this through, I give up." Some flavors of scum would definitely be interested in sitting to the sideline of discussion (e.g. scum!Eevee from Game of Thrones), and while this game is kind of baffling, it's towny to at least try.
Oh, and joth...pretty null on joth, haven't heard from him in a while. I suppose if he dayvigs we'll get confirmation of his role at least.
I'm going to bed, I'll be around tomorrow but this is probably my last proper long reads post before deadline. So I will keep my faust vote for now, but I would also be OK with an Eevee lynch/vig if that's the way the wind is blowing.
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faust I still don't like. Yes, bodyguard, very towny seeming power (for what that's worth). But it's the circumstances under which he claimed that still bother me. Such an early claim D1, and what, to defend ash? And now he is eager to claim about how he has revealed his PM to xeiron, for verification. It feels to me like he's been flaunting his claim since D1, perhaps with the foreknowledge that he would have a second. And maybe he wanted to defend ash for the towncred, knowing that ash was town.
1. Yes, I claimed early. Look at my role. Do you see any reason not to claim D1? It doesn't help scum in the least to know my role.
2. I wasn't "eager to claim" my connection with xeiron. It was part of the mass claim. Why are you painting this as something scummy?
3. Maybe I wanted to defend ash because I didn't want to kill town, and I thought that it was pretty obvious that that's what he was? But of course you can go on declaring every pro-town play as "grab for towncred", let's see where that gets us.
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Just over half a day to deadline.
We should consentrate on lynching someone.
Jotheonah can still shoot someone when/if he shows up, but we do no longer have time to wait for him to shoot before we start to look for a lynch.
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Vote Count 2.9
faust (2): Archetype, Walrus
Eevee (2): xeiron, EFHW
EFHW (1): faust
Not Voting (3): Voltaire, jotheonah, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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Sorry guys, my plane got diverted to DC, couldn't get online ALL DAY yesterday.
Anyway, dayvig: Eevee
Let's see what happens.
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Hey, Archetype, seems that you are voting for me. Remind me again why you are voting for me?
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vote: jotheonah
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Hey, Archetype, seems that you are voting for me. Remind me again why you are voting for me?
Woops, sorry.
Vote: EFHW
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Eevee has been killed. He was Annyong, the Temporary Vaniallaiser, a Secondary Character.
All votes remain the same except for votes cast by or on Eevee.
Vote Count 2.11
faust (1): Walrus
joth (1): Faust
EFHW (1): arch
Not Voting (4): Voltaire, jotheonah, xeiron, EFHW
With 7 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
[/quote]
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That should say 4 to lynch.
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Oh shit. It looks like he might not respawn until tonight?
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it looks like if Eevee does come back to life, it won't be until tomorrow. Guess the next thing is to look back at his posts and see if they yield any insights.
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Except we still don't know if green even means town. So maybe Eevee WILL be scum.
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I think it is just as good that that Eevee is not immediately respawned.
He has posted V/la, and will probably not show up for the rest of the day. Now we do not need his vote to lynch.
I think it would be bad for us to lynch him now anyway. He should get a chance to speak up after getting a new PM.
I will vote for either EFHW or Jotheonah.
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and xe, why are you voting for me? and also faust.
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I don't know, I don't have the brainpower/attention/focus for this game at the levels I normally do right now, I guess I would vote for xeiron/jotheonah...EFHW? Those three.
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vote:xeiron I guess.
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vote: xeiron
FYI I will not be around at deadline.
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resons to vote for Jotheonah:
- He was my top scumread after D1 as explained a earlier post.
vote: Jotheonah.
He have been trying to spread doubt about players;
Not sure what to make of this at all. My gut reaction is to not believe ashersky, but I'm not all about gut reactions. Nonetheless, my conclusion about early ash semi-claims is not to act on them one way or another. No town cred, etc. Whatever scum!ash might have hoped to gain from the claim, we should be careful not to offer. If ash does anything to earn town cred down the line, maybe we give some more weight to the claim.
Not a fan of the day 1 mass claim, as per usual.
is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
Works for whom, that's the question.
And he have proposed lynches that is not really the best for eliminating scum.
You know what,
Vote:ashersky
Last game, he claimed off the bat, got town cred for it, and survived off that cred until the end of the game -- despite many people voicing concerns over his towniness. The fact is, FoSes without votes are just fine for scum.
Let's try lynching him this time! Even if he's town, at least we're not losing a useful power role.
Hey EFHW, your power is negative utility? Do you want a new one? We could lynch you! And test the everyone has two lives theory.
In general, it seems to me like Jotheonah is looking for reasons to lynch people, not looking for scum.
- He is a vig (dayvig, true, but still a vig) and we already have a confirmed town vig in Ashersky.
I have more beliefe in one town and one scum vig, than two town vigs.
resons not to vote Jotheonah
- From the top of my head, his actions D2 has been pretty towny.
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Reasons to vote EFHW:
- She has a role that would be useful for scum. (and aslo for town, but not as much.)
- The whole "do not target me, or bad things will happen" situation would be very convenient for scum
- She is hard to read, and a good scumplayer, and could be scum even though I have not noticed any explicit scummy actions from her.
reasons not vote EFHW
- Have few scummy posts. Less than Jotheonah, as an example.
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vote: xeiron
FYI I will not be around at deadline.
vote:xeiron I guess.
Why vote for me?
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and xe, why are you voting for me? and also faust.
I think you used your power in a scummy way. You could have just waited. You jumping at xeiron only strengthen my perception. And the point xeiron makes about two vigs makes a lot of sense as well.
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vote: xeiron
FYI I will not be around at deadline.
?
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And the point xeiron makes about two vigs makes a lot of sense as well.
Agreed. vote: jotheonah.
xeiron, I was voting for you due to POEing everyone else and the fact you mostly talk about theory. Not the greatest reasons, but the best I had at the time. I'm not super-confident at all today right now, but I do like your point on joth very much.
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I will go with Vote: jotheonah as well.
That is {L-1}
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it looks like if Eevee does come back to life, it won't be until tomorrow. Guess the next thing is to look back at his posts and see if they yield any insights.
Another point against Jotheonah is this post.
It is almost as if he knows Eevees alignment, and forgot that the rest of us don't as eevee's alligment was not revealed in the flip.
Scumslip?
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jotheonah, if there's anything about your role you have been hiding, now might be a good time to tell us.
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faust, maybe your claim didn't help scum, but it didn't really help town either. Claiming D1 is an eager claim if there's no great reason for it that I can see, and then jumping in to claim for xeiron, while ostensibly a time-saver, also appears overeager to me in the context of a massclaim. I don't think that ash's alignment was in any way "obvious" D1 and the fact that you say so just sounds like gloating scum. The fact that you immediately defend against anything I throw at you is a null tell for me, as I've seen scum who get real touchy and scum who would sooner just ignore it.
I see that Eevee was dayvigged...interesting that he's out for the rest of the day. I think the allegations raised against joth are reasonable...his dayvig now was quite abrupt, and I didn't think about the point about the two vigs. So I guess joth is an ok lynch choice for today. I could hammer, but I'll give it until lunch at least (about 4 hours for me)
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I realize the "don't target me" thing looks fishy. I still get surprised when people don't understand that I am obviously town! OTOH, town is better off not targeting me.
I don't have a case to make against anyone. So scum is playing well. If I go with my intuitions, it's vote: Walrus. What is that based on, you might ask. Not a lot is the answer. MOre later.
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Ugh. There are things I have been hiding. To whit: I have a second dayvig. Also I can choose to steal a power when I shoot.
Haven't read the whole case against me, but it's really easy to forget green doesn't mean town.
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and xe, why are you voting for me? and also faust.
I think you used your power in a scummy way. You could have just waited. You jumping at xeiron only strengthen my perception. And the point xeiron makes about two vigs makes a lot of sense as well.
I can think of much scummier things to do than ask town who I should shoot and then shoot the person who seemed to have a consensus. I didn't want to wait too long or there wouldn't be time to act on/process the result.
Having claimed the power, I didn't see waiting as an option since I would just be night killed.
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More power stealing? Mmmmmmm.
joth, why didn't you tell us that when you claimed? (I get not revealing a second dayvig)
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I thought that scum might be more likely to lie about their powerful roles of they knew. I opted not to steal Eevee's power.
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I thought that scum might be more likely to lie about their powerful roles of they knew. I opted not to steal Eevee's power.
But you could have told us after the claim and before the vig.
Two vigs, one is likely scum. Two power-stealing roles, one is likely scum. I think jotheonah is a pretty decent lynch choice.
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Also, it was laid out that scum couldn't really lie about their roles if they wanted. So your defense for not claiming everything is weak.
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Sorry I had to go suddenly. faust I disagree with your conclusions about jotheonah. All these extra lives, we need to go through them somehow. One nightvig and one dayvig seems plausible to me.
About not telling us everything, there is a narrative where he could be scum wanting Eevee's role to neutralize some town powers. Are there other roles scum would want more? We really need a list, and i don't have time to make one right now.
re: Walrus, I think what is giving me the scumread is that he has been equivocating a lot and sticking to noticing the obvious things. I forgot to bold my vote before, so vote: Walrus.
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Also, faust used this logic successfully as scum in Modern Community. (The idea that if there are two of a role and one is town, the other must be scum).
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re: Walrus, I think what is giving me the scumread is that he has been equivocating a lot and sticking to noticing the obvious things. I forgot to bold my vote before, so vote: Walrus.
I have a bad feeling about Walrus as well, but why would he target Voltaire? That does not seem to make sense as a scum action.
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well, if he really protected Voltaire like Archetype said he did, then why was Voltaire shot anyway?
We could have a Walrus-Archetype team staging the whole "who targeted Voltaire" thing. Walrus was the next to last person to answer (I was last).
Also, "Dumb Jock" could be anything. This is what I was trying to say before about scum still having some room to lie. The flip will say "Dumb Jock" and maybe "acts at random", and we might not know what powers go with it.
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Do you think Walrus/Archetype sets up such an elaborate fakeclaim, with no pre-planning if ash is the one who shot me? Which really has to be the case, because scum would be the only ones to know to shoot ash. I certainly don't, which is why I lean town on both of them.
I find it highly plausible ash was a vig who could only kill someone who was also targeted, as faust (and I) originally thought.
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I'm not saying this really happened, just that it is a plausible scum narrative. They didn't need ash to shoot Voltaire for their plan to work. It actually hinders their plan. And we don't know what "aid-requiring" means. Maybe it means someone had to target ashersky. We don't want to make assumptions like that.
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I'm not saying this really happened, just that it is a plausible scum narrative. They didn't need ash to shoot Voltaire for their plan to work. It actually hinders their plan. And we don't know what "aid-requiring" means. Maybe it means someone had to target ashersky. We don't want to make assumptions like that.
Yes, it could also have meant that.
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The benefits of the plan would be that 1. we would be less likely to think of them as partners, since one is answering the other's question in thread, 2. it gets people talking about their roles and 3. Arch gives Walrus towncred, which gives Arch towncred.
How do you explain the contradiction that Walrus supposedly protected you and you were shot anyway?
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The benefits of the plan would be that 1. we would be less likely to think of them as partners, since one is answering the other's question in thread, 2. it gets people talking about their roles and 3. Arch gives Walrus towncred, which gives Arch towncred.
How do you explain the contradiction that Walrus supposedly protected you and you were shot anyway?
I've been thinking of it as RMM, honestly. At the fact the we have so many "if target then" modifiers going around. But you're right, it does not make sense. I think I am having blinders on it since it centers around me.
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of course, that would make "protection" a bad lie for Archetype to tell, since it was contradicted.
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Is anyone else a secret vig or something? (should that even be claimed?) Could I have been shot twice?
And honestly, EFHW, the reason I'm hesitant about all of this is also:
This game will feature of myriad of roles, some of these roles will be subject to or create misinformation. However there will be no mod lying.
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of course, that would make "protection" a bad lie for Archetype to tell, since it was contradicted.
By Walrus? I'm confused.
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
Why not? Because it would tie them together too much/be caught out in this scenario?
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Archetype, what result would you get if someone were targeted by two of the same type of actions? Say, two doctors had targeted me last night. "Protection Protection" or just "Protection"?
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Walrus and Archetype have become tied together. They have twin roles and Archetype's result confirms Walrus'.
I cannot see how one of them could be scum, if the other one is town. In other words they are in all likelihood town-town or scum-scum. I think lynching one of them is the wrong way to check. It would be much better if we could investigate them.
With one cop result showing town, we would essentially get four lives worth of ICs.
Or if one of them turned out to have a role PM that don't fit at all with their claimed role. Then both of them is probably scum, and lying about their roles. catching three and catching four lives of scum in one shoot will both win us the game. Mislynching Walrus might not.
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Walrus and Archetype have become tied together. They have twin roles and Archetype's result confirms Walrus'.
I cannot see how one of them could be scum, if the other one is town. In other words they are in all likelihood town-town or scum-scum. I think lynching one of them is the wrong way to check. It would be much better if we could investigate them.
With one cop result showing town, we would essentially get four lives worth of ICs.
Or if one of them turned out to have a role PM that don't fit at all with their claimed role. Then both of them is probably scum, and lying about their roles. catching three and catching four lives of scum in one shoot will both win us the game. Mislynching Walrus might not.
??? Why can't it be 1 scum, 1 town?
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
Why not? Because it would tie them together too much/be caught out in this scenario?
Right. Now we question Walrus and Archetype's claims more b/c the night results contradict them. Since they already knew you had been shot, why would scum!Arch claim protection for scum!Walrus? I thought at first maybe to discredit you, so they could say you used your redirector role, but they haven't been trying to do that.
But HOW did you end up being shot?
1. there were two shots, as you suggested a minute ago.
2. Walrus never targeted you, or if he did it wasn't with a protective role.
3. there is ANOTHER redirector (having already found two, ash and faust, I doubt there are others, though)
4. Walrus was roleblocked -- Would Arch still get the information?
5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
Can anyone think of other possibilities?
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Walrus and Archetype have become tied together. They have twin roles and Archetype's result confirms Walrus'.
I cannot see how one of them could be scum, if the other one is town. In other words they are in all likelihood town-town or scum-scum. I think lynching one of them is the wrong way to check. It would be much better if we could investigate them.
With one cop result showing town, we would essentially get four lives worth of ICs.
Or if one of them turned out to have a role PM that don't fit at all with their claimed role. Then both of them is probably scum, and lying about their roles. catching three and catching four lives of scum in one shoot will both win us the game. Mislynching Walrus might not.
so you want to neighborize one of them?
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5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
This is very interesting, I've totally forgotten about this possible solution. Would switch my vote to Voltaire if there's interest.
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HOLD ON - why didn't Archetype see the kill made on Voltaire?
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HOLD ON - why didn't Archetype see the kill made on Voltaire?
He did.
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5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
This is very interesting, I've totally forgotten about this possible solution. Would switch my vote to Voltaire if there's interest.
But what info would Arch get? I don't think he would be told that a protective role targeted Voltaire, b/c the protection would never have reached him.
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HOLD ON - why didn't Archetype see the kill made on Voltaire?
He did.
What did it say?
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ok, I found it. Shoot, I thought I had something!
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EFHW, I've completely lost you. I thought you were arguing for scum-pair Archetype/Walrus, which I disagree with. But now it seems you're not/suspect me? Either way, Walrus/Archetype are likelier town and I agree with xeiron they make for bad lynches today.
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5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
This is very interesting, I've totally forgotten about this possible solution. Would switch my vote to Voltaire if there's interest.
As pointed out, not only is this wrong, it's disproven by Archetype's result.
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
Why not? Because it would tie them together too much/be caught out in this scenario?
Right. Now we question Walrus and Archetype's claims more b/c the night results contradict them. Since they already knew you had been shot, why would scum!Arch claim protection for scum!Walrus? I thought at first maybe to discredit you, so they could say you used your redirector role, but they haven't been trying to do that.
But HOW did you end up being shot?
1. there were two shots, as you suggested a minute ago.
2. Walrus never targeted you, or if he did it wasn't with a protective role.
3. there is ANOTHER redirector (having already found two, ash and faust, I doubt there are others, though)
4. Walrus was roleblocked -- Would Arch still get the information?
5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
Can anyone think of other possibilities?
6. Walrus's role is always classified as a protective role, regardless of whether it turns out to be doc, jailkeeper, or roleblocker. (it turned out to be a roleblock so the kill could pass)
7. Ashersky can somehow bypass protection. (There is the aid required modifier that we do not know how works.)
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Walrus and Archetype have become tied together. They have twin roles and Archetype's result confirms Walrus'.
I cannot see how one of them could be scum, if the other one is town. In other words they are in all likelihood town-town or scum-scum. I think lynching one of them is the wrong way to check. It would be much better if we could investigate them.
With one cop result showing town, we would essentially get four lives worth of ICs.
Or if one of them turned out to have a role PM that don't fit at all with their claimed role. Then both of them is probably scum, and lying about their roles. catching three and catching four lives of scum in one shoot will both win us the game. Mislynching Walrus might not.
so you want to neighborize one of them?
I am considering that, yes.
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5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
This is very interesting, I've totally forgotten about this possible solution. Would switch my vote to Voltaire if there's interest.
As pointed out, not only is this wrong, it's disproven by Archetype's result.
Yes, right, didn't think that through. I guess it's jotheonah then.
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
Why not? Because it would tie them together too much/be caught out in this scenario?
Right. Now we question Walrus and Archetype's claims more b/c the night results contradict them. Since they already knew you had been shot, why would scum!Arch claim protection for scum!Walrus? I thought at first maybe to discredit you, so they could say you used your redirector role, but they haven't been trying to do that.
But HOW did you end up being shot?
1. there were two shots, as you suggested a minute ago.
2. Walrus never targeted you, or if he did it wasn't with a protective role.
3. there is ANOTHER redirector (having already found two, ash and faust, I doubt there are others, though)
4. Walrus was roleblocked -- Would Arch still get the information?
5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
Can anyone think of other possibilities?
6. Walrus's role is always classified as a protective role, regardless of whether it turns out to be doc, jailkeeper, or roleblocker. (it turned out to be a roleblock so the kill could pass)
7. Ashersky can somehow bypass protection. (There is the aid required modifier that we do not know how works.)
I was thinking 6 or 7 myself. With most of the other theories presented here it seems like Arch wouldn't have received a result about me.
Finished with lunch now, so I'll be present but working until deadline. The joth lynch still seems fine...the "town vig, scum vig" argument is one I hadn't considered before, but it makes a lot of sense to me. It reminds me of the crux of my suspicion against pps in D2 of Time War--two townies (including myself) already had the regeneration ability, and so I expected further regeneration to be in the hands of scum. There was more than that too...but it certainly ended up working out.
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What even is a scum vig? I would just call that a night kill.
I don't think two vigs for town is overpowered at all given that (A) we all have two lives including, I assume, scum and (B) vig can be negative utility.
A daykill for scum would be a guaranteed extra kill on the other team. FOr town, it has the very likely possibility of hitting one's own team. So a vig for each team isn't really equal at all.
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Archetype, what result would you get if someone were targeted by two of the same type of actions? Say, two doctors had targeted me last night. "Protection Protection" or just "Protection"?
I'm pretty sure its just Protection. It seemed to be layed out as "These are all the types of roles that targeted them"
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Since you were NOT protected, scum!Archetype wouldn't want to give scum!Walrus credit for having protected you.
Why not? Because it would tie them together too much/be caught out in this scenario?
Right. Now we question Walrus and Archetype's claims more b/c the night results contradict them. Since they already knew you had been shot, why would scum!Arch claim protection for scum!Walrus? I thought at first maybe to discredit you, so they could say you used your redirector role, but they haven't been trying to do that.
But HOW did you end up being shot?
1. there were two shots, as you suggested a minute ago.
2. Walrus never targeted you, or if he did it wasn't with a protective role.
3. there is ANOTHER redirector (having already found two, ash and faust, I doubt there are others, though)
4. Walrus was roleblocked -- Would Arch still get the information?
5. You are scum and used redirector on Walrus, reflecting his protection back on himself (what information would Archetype get in that case?)
Can anyone think of other possibilities?
6. Walrus's role is always classified as a protective role, regardless of whether it turns out to be doc, jailkeeper, or roleblocker. (it turned out to be a roleblock so the kill could pass)
7. Ashersky can somehow bypass protection. (There is the aid required modifier that we do not know how works.)
I was thinking 6 or 7 myself. With most of the other theories presented here it seems like Arch wouldn't have received a result about me.
Same. First reading your claim, I thought it was a fake because of how similar it is to mine. Kinda how I was sort of suspicious of faust because of how closely his mimicked ashersky's. But I think 6 or 7 is the more likely possibility (though by the way yuma answered my question, it seemed like I'd be investigating the specific power used - not the role.
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What even is a scum vig? I would just call that a night kill.
I don't think two vigs for town is overpowered at all given that (A) we all have two lives including, I assume, scum and (B) vig can be negative utility.
A daykill for scum would be a guaranteed extra kill on the other team. FOr town, it has the very likely possibility of hitting one's own team. So a vig for each team isn't really equal at all.
I think it's totally likely. With Town having an extra life, I was leaning towards a 6 v 3 game or scum having an extra kill. So the situation you described isn't as farfetched as you make it out to be. Still, I'd rather lynch EFHW.
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Um wow. I'm leaving now, 1.5 to deadline, good luck! :(
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can we get an up-to-date vote count?
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working on it now. yuma is still at work.
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I'm going to Vote: Voltaire
1) I'd love a real flip
2) The speed at which he went from voting xeiron to voting me based on a point xeiron made is a little dizzying. If you're ready to lynch someone, why would you let them tell you who to lynch and why.
3) There's scum on my wagon. Look at the way I suddenly became a target AFTER my dayvig was gone -- scum was scared to vote for me when I could shoot them in response, came out of the woodwork when it was safe.
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Vote Count 2.11efhw
faust (1): Walrus
joth (1): faust
EFHW (1): Archetype
Walrus (1): EFHW
xeiron (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (2): Voltaire, xeiron
Not Voting (0)
It takes 4 to lynch. Deadline in 1 hr 23 minutes
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Vote Count 2.11efhw.2
faust (1): Walrus
joth (1): faust
EFHW (1): Archetype
Walrus (1): EFHW
Voltaire (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (2): Voltaire, xeiron
Not Voting (0)
It takes 4 to lynch. Deadline in 1 hr 23 minutes
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I'm astonished Voltaire just left with us in this state, not making a bit of noise about it.
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Who is on?
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Vote Count 2.11efhw
faust (1): Walrus
EFHW (1): Archetype
Walrus (1): EFHW
Voltaire (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (3): Voltaire, xeiron, faust
Not Voting (0)
It takes 4 to lynch. Deadline in 1 hr 23 minutes
FTFY
Ok, who wants to help me lynch Voltaire? we have an hor and I need to get on a plane in 20 m.
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Just noticed you are on there twice. L-1
Vote Count 2.11efhw.3
faust (1): Walrus
EFHW (1): Archetype
Walrus (1): EFHW
Voltaire (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (3): faust, Voltaire, xeiron {L-1}
Not Voting (0)
It takes 4 to lynch. Deadline in 1 hr 20 minutes
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So now I am also astonished xeiron and Voltaire put joth at L-1 without saying anything.
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xeiron did say it was L1
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Walrus are you still there? If it's just the 3 of us, we can only lynch Joth or me. But I'm not going to self-vote.
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xeiron did say it was L1
ok then
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joth what is the case against you and what is your response?
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I am nearby, and will take a look on the game once in a while. But I will probably not stay all the time until deadline.
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can you summarize why you are voting for joth?
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I'm here. Anyone want to vote EFHW?
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what's your case?
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I'm here. But only intermittently.
Are those really our only options? What happens again if there's no majority? Does the most popular wagon get it, or is it an automatic no lynch, or random, or what?
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I'm here. But only intermittently.
Are those really our only options? What happens again if there's no majority? Does the most popular wagon get it, or is it an automatic no lynch, or random, or what?
I could not find anything in the rules specifying if there is a no lynch, or the most popular wagon goes through.
That point have probably fallen out of the rulestet somwhere in the process of copy-pasting-from-game-to-game.
I assume no-lynch.
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I'm here. Anyone want to vote EFHW?
Not really.
What is wrong with Jotheonah?
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can you summarize why you are voting for joth?
I assume that was a question for me.
I am not rewriting the case, but I can pull up the relevant quotes.
resons to vote for Jotheonah:
- He was my top scumread after D1 as explained a earlier post.
vote: Jotheonah.
He have been trying to spread doubt about players;
Not sure what to make of this at all. My gut reaction is to not believe ashersky, but I'm not all about gut reactions. Nonetheless, my conclusion about early ash semi-claims is not to act on them one way or another. No town cred, etc. Whatever scum!ash might have hoped to gain from the claim, we should be careful not to offer. If ash does anything to earn town cred down the line, maybe we give some more weight to the claim.
Not a fan of the day 1 mass claim, as per usual.
is it weird that Eevee is defending Ash's claim and Ash is nowhere to be seen?
Works for whom, that's the question.
And he have proposed lynches that is not really the best for eliminating scum.
You know what,
Vote:ashersky
Last game, he claimed off the bat, got town cred for it, and survived off that cred until the end of the game -- despite many people voicing concerns over his towniness. The fact is, FoSes without votes are just fine for scum.
Let's try lynching him this time! Even if he's town, at least we're not losing a useful power role.
Hey EFHW, your power is negative utility? Do you want a new one? We could lynch you! And test the everyone has two lives theory.
In general, it seems to me like Jotheonah is looking for reasons to lynch people, not looking for scum.
- He is a vig (dayvig, true, but still a vig) and we already have a confirmed town vig in Ashersky.
I have more beliefe in one town and one scum vig, than two town vigs.
resons not to vote Jotheonah
- From the top of my head, his actions D2 has been pretty towny.
+
it looks like if Eevee does come back to life, it won't be until tomorrow. Guess the next thing is to look back at his posts and see if they yield any insights.
Another point against Jotheonah is this post.
It is almost as if he knows Eevees alignment, and forgot that the rest of us don't as eevee's alligment was not revealed in the flip.
Scumslip?
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Vote Count 2.12
faust (1): Walrus
joth (3): Faust, voltaire, xeiron
EFHW (1): arch
Walrus (1): EFHW
Voltaire (1): joth
Not Voting (0):
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline for Day2 is 8 days and will be February 14 at 8 pm forum time.
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Mod question:
What happens if there's no majority for any lynch at deadline? Does the most popular wagon get it, or is it an automatic no lynch, or random, or what?
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Mod question:
What happens if there's no majority for any lynch at deadline? Does the most popular wagon get it, or is it an automatic no lynch, or random, or what?
A no lynch
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If it's our only option, I'll hammer joth. But I don't think there is much of a case against him. We don't have a good case against anyone, really, though.
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I'm here. Anyone want to vote EFHW?
Not really.
What is wrong with Jotheonah?
Nothing, I suppose. I just prefer EFHW. Her role is really, really weird and I see 0 Town benefit. I can hammer if-needed.
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If someone said "town gets 12-14 lives", I would have said that's great. But without flips, we have so little information. We sort of have to work through the lives, and no lynch would not help us with that.
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I'm here. Anyone want to vote EFHW?
Not really.
What is wrong with Jotheonah?
Nothing, I suppose. I just prefer EFHW. Her role is really, really weird and I see 0 Town benefit. I can hammer if-needed.
That's not completely true, but it's a lot less benefit now than before I claimed.
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I'm here. Anyone want to vote EFHW?
Not really.
What is wrong with Jotheonah?
Nothing, I suppose. I just prefer EFHW. Her role is really, really weird and I see 0 Town benefit. I can hammer if-needed.
That's not completely true, but it's a lot less benefit now than before I claimed.
Then what's the benifit?
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now it's just benefit to me. before I could have absorbed a scum kill, or caught a scum targeting me.
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are hanging around, or should we just hammer now? 'cause I have to go.
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vote: joth
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Ok, it's late, and I'll be working through deadline. I don't foresee much productive discussion with so few of us here. I prefer a joth lynch to EFHW, so let's just get this over with:
vote: jotheonah
Happy Valentine's Day!
STEVE HOLT!
PPE: EFHW did it first apparently
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Well, see ya tomorrow joth and Eevee!
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Thread Locked!
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Final Day2 Vote Count
faust (1): Walrus
joth (4): Faust, voltaire, xeiron, EFHW
EFHW (1): arch
Voltaire (1): joth
Not Voting (0):
jotheonah has been lynched. He was Carl Weathers, the Day-Role-Stealing Vigilante, a Secondary Character.
Night Actions are due in 48 hours. If you are not planning on using a night action please PM me anyways to check in. Day3 will not start until all players have checked in. Day3 will last at least 72 hours.
Thread Still Locked
Night2 Starts Now!
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I am still waiting on a handful of you to either submit night actions or check in for the night if you are not going to use night actions. Because of the amount I may allow night actions to be submitted after the deadline, but can't make any guarantees that they will be accepted after. They will certainly not be accepted after I have processed them. Basically get PMs to me ASAP. Anyone who logs onto the forums without sending me a PM will forfeit their night action. I will be checking activity.
I will be PMing those of you who I still need to hear from.
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Ok. Night Action deadline has been reached. Day will start in 24 hours!
Thread still locked.
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Need to open a bit early so I am opening now.
The Bluth Family were supposed to gather at the Sudden Valley development project. However, everyone was running late. Michael was getting impatient. "This family couldn't be on time if life was on the line."
But apparently life was on the line!
On route to the family gathering Buster and Tobias were sidetracked by a group of friendly pirates. They invited Buster--because of his claw--and Tobias--because of his outfit to join them on a boat ride. Turns out the boat ride wasn't on the ocean. Instead it was on a float to promote support for the Queen Elizabeth--a gay bar planned to open downtown.
Unfortunately for the float it came to a rather dramatic end. It crashed into a motorcycle. The driver of the motorcycle--Steve Holt!--and all those on the float died as the papermache caught fire.
Walrus was killed in the night. He was Steve Holt, the Dumb, Good Jock a Secondary Character.
Eevee was killed in the night. He was Buster, the Paranoid Hook Owning Babysitter, a Good Bluth
jotheonah was killed in the night. He was Tobias, the Analrapist, a Good Bluth
Vote Count 3.1
Not Voting (6): Archetype, xeiron, Walrus, Faust, Voltaire, EFHW
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
Day3 Begins Now! Thread Unlocked!
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That is weird jotheonah died.
Life count!
Archetype: 2
EFHW: 2
Xeiron: 2
Faust: 2
Voltaire: 1
Walrus: 1
Do you have any results for us, Voltaire? Did anyone target you, EFHW?
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no one targeted me. Those are pretty awful names for "good" Bluths.
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Walrus has "good" in his name. But we don't know whether to take that as an alignment or not. 6 people left, probably only 4 town, 4 needed to lynch. This is going to be hard.
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Why is joth's death weirder than Eevee's or Walrus's?
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I didn't get a result. I assume no-one will fess up to targeting me.
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3 deaths AND someone targeted Voltaire? Maybe only 2 town left?
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joth probably got to use his final role before going out, and we basically have no idea what that could have been. Maybe Eevee too, probably? I think I'm following it right from when ash vig'ed me.
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let's hear your results, Archetype
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Eevee was paranoid, which means joth or Walrus probably targeted him.
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Alright. Last night I targeted Eevee and Tracked him. He ended up targeting jotheonah.
Well, it looks like the lynches for today are either Voltaire or EFHW. If we're wrong on Voltaire, we lose. If we're wrong on EFHW, she's only down a life and scum could just kill her, but they can already kill Walrus (who I'm pretty sure is Town) so putting up another target like that isn't too terrible of a thing.
So, yeah. I say we either lynch EFHW or No Lynch. Thoughts?
PPE: 3
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Eevee was a babysitter, meaning he can protect, but if he is killed then his target is too. Plus any scum who targeted a kill at Eevee should have died. So if Walrus shot Eevee, and Eevee protected Joth, they would all die.
But Walrus has "good" in his name. I think we need to ignore that and lynch Walrus anyway.
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ok, looked up arrested development. I much prefer theralyst! So he was probably a psychologist.
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faust who did you target last night?
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Voltaire who did you try to cop?
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I am not convinced we should claim all results immediately.
I'd rather see Faust, Voltaire and Walrus wait.
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Eevee was a babysitter, meaning he can protect, but if he is killed then his target is too. Plus any scum who targeted a kill at Eevee should have died. So if Walrus shot Eevee, and Eevee protected Joth, they would all die.
But Walrus has "good" in his name. I think we need to ignore that and lynch Walrus anyway.
I looked up babysitter on mafiascum. I see that Joth would die if eevee died (assuming eevee targeted joth.)
But I do not see how Walrus would die (if he killed eevee). Can you explain that?
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So, let's put this together:
These are most likely the night actions:
Mafia killed Eevee
Eevee targeted jotheonah
Walrus targeted Eevee
jotheonah targeted X (hopefully not Voltaire)
I targeted Y (not Voltaire)
xeiron targeted Z (not Voltaire, as should be confirmable)
EFHW couldn't target anyone
Archetype targeted Eevee (claimed)
From this, it seems likely that A) Walrus is indeed scum and his targeting was the kill. B) If so, Walrus could have used his second action to target Voltaire. C) If Walrus didn't target Voltaire, either Archetype targeted him or Voltaire is lying.
I think we need Walrus to claim, and to full-claim.
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Eevee was a babysitter, meaning he can protect, but if he is killed then his target is too. Plus any scum who targeted a kill at Eevee should have died. So if Walrus shot Eevee, and Eevee protected Joth, they would all die.
But Walrus has "good" in his name. I think we need to ignore that and lynch Walrus anyway.
I looked up babysitter on mafiascum. I see that Joth would die if eevee died (assuming eevee targeted joth.)
But I do not see how Walrus would die (if he killed eevee). Can you explain that?
"Paranoid Hook Owning" would equal the Paranoid Gun Owner from mafiascum, i.e. any player targeting Eevee dies. ... which of course makes me wonder: why is Archetype still alive?
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Eevee was a babysitter, meaning he can protect, but if he is killed then his target is too. Plus any scum who targeted a kill at Eevee should have died. So if Walrus shot Eevee, and Eevee protected Joth, they would all die.
But Walrus has "good" in his name. I think we need to ignore that and lynch Walrus anyway.
I looked up babysitter on mafiascum. I see that Joth would die if eevee died (assuming eevee targeted joth.)
But I do not see how Walrus would die (if he killed eevee). Can you explain that?
"Paranoid Hook Owning" would equal the Paranoid Gun Owner from mafiascum, i.e. any player targeting Eevee dies. ... which of course makes me wonder: why is Archetype still alive?
Right... Paranoid hook Owning. Missed that.
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I can't believe I didn't see this before. If paranoid means what it does on mafiascum, then Archetype is lying. He can't have targeted Eevee without being killed.
But why would scum!Archetype say Eevee targeted Joth? Maybe because it was probably true, and would therefore be convincing? He could have said Eevee targeted Walrus, to explain scum!Walrus's death, but two lies means two ways to get caught.
He couldn't say he targeted anyone alive, b/c everyone (except me) has a role that targets someone, and his targeting me would not make sense as a plausible choice. He could have said he targeted joth, who was probably a psychologist and wouldn't have continuing effects of his targeting to contradict the lie.
I disagree about holding off on N2 results. I don't see the advantage.
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So I expect Walrus to tell us now that he targeted Archetype, who was doctored and therefore didn't die.
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faust - According to Voltaire, being killed during the night means you get your new role at day start, so Walrus wouldn't have gotten to use his new power role last night.
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And I see now you had the same thought about Archetype.
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Voltaire who did you try to cop?
I tried to target xeiron.
Can you walk me through why we need to lynch Walrus?
Archetype, can you walk me through why we need to lynch EFHW or myself (or no-lynch)?
I'm going to collect all our claims/actions in one place today unless someone else has already done so. I won't be able to get a handle back on this game until I see that.
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I can't believe I didn't see this before. If paranoid means what it does on mafiascum, then Archetype is lying. He can't have targeted Eevee without being killed.
But why would scum!Archetype say Eevee targeted Joth? Maybe because it was probably true, and would therefore be convincing? He could have said Eevee targeted Walrus, to explain scum!Walrus's death, but two lies means two ways to get caught.
He couldn't say he targeted anyone alive, b/c everyone (except me) has a role that targets someone, and his targeting me would not make sense as a plausible choice. He could have said he targeted joth, who was probably a psychologist and wouldn't have continuing effects of his targeting to contradict the lie.
I disagree about holding off on N2 results. I don't see the advantage.
Walrus/Archetype scum team, victory then?
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faust - According to Voltaire, being killed during the night means you get your new role at day start, so Walrus wouldn't have gotten to use his new power role last night.
In my previous post, I meant "second action" as in "action besides his factional kill", not "second action" as in "action from his second role".
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Both Eevee and joth have impossible-to-know actions. I see the speculation that Eevee is a PGO and I agree that is most likely but there almost certianly was some twist (I mean look at our roles) that I think we just have to swallow that we can't know.
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I know why Archetype claimed having targeted Eevee: Because he told xeiron he did before he saw the flip!
Here's what happened tonight: xeiron targeted Archetype, they got a QT together. Archetype, planning something, said he targeted Eevee. Only he can't, because that would mean he died, and he couldn't have died, because if he would, I would have died instead, as I targeted Archetype tonight.
Vote: Archetype
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xeiron, is that true?
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xeiron, is that true?
It better is, because that's what he told me.
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xeiron, is that true?
It better is, because that's what he told me.
Oh! Intent to vote Archetype once xeiron confirms, then.
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1. Archetype probably targeted Voltaire, maybe with a roleblock? What other scum power could he have used that doesn't kill? -- Rolecop, but he doesn't really need that since we mass-claimed. -- Some kind of redirection, which wouldn't have effect anyway since Voltaire's power would have been blocked. -- Some delayed effect action, like poisoner or arsonist.
2. Just to cover all the bases, if Archetype was poisoner, he could have targeted Eevee N1. Then Walrus would be the nightkill.
3. Day 2 Archetype said that he saw Voltaire being targeted with killing, investigative, and protective actions. Only the "protective" part was a gamble. The others would have been obvious - Voltaire was killed and he was claiming to investigate him.
4. If faust is telling the truth about xeiron, then why did xeiron want to hold off on reporting results?
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Both Eevee and joth have impossible-to-know actions. I see the speculation that Eevee is a PGO and I agree that is most likely but there almost certianly was some twist (I mean look at our roles) that I think we just have to swallow that we can't know.
really? REALLY? This doesn't sound like you. Usually you are eager to solve puzzles.
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Both Eevee and joth have impossible-to-know actions. I see the speculation that Eevee is a PGO and I agree that is most likely but there almost certianly was some twist (I mean look at our roles) that I think we just have to swallow that we can't know.
really? REALLY? This doesn't sound like you. Usually you are eager to solve puzzles.
Paranoid Hook Owner - flavor name for PGO. Cool. But, and I have said this so many times before:
There is one facet of the game that some may consider to be bastard, however the mod ensures you that it has been accounted for and has been designed in such a way to make it not bastard. This game will feature of myriad of roles, some of these roles will be subject to or create misinformation. However there will be no mod lying.
as a result, I am not comfortable taking anything we have that is unexplained and going "oh, musta been Eevee then!" That said, Eevee's PGO had to have a twist. It had to have. Same with ash's "aid-requiring." If we think that this quote was only referring to the second lives thing, then we'd be fine. I personally don't think that's the case.
Where I'm going with this is, I'm approaching this more towards normal mafia than RMM mafia.
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I want to point out that we might be - in a way - at LyLo. If we don't lynch scum tonight (assuming 2 scum with 2 lives each), scum can kill one of us with only 1 life. Then there are five players left tomorrow. Even if we lynch correctly then, the scum player we lynch still has 1 life. Then scum kills one of us with 1 life in the night, and on the following Day, 4 players remain, 2 of which are scum.
Of course this doesn't consider role interactions, but I think should make clear that no lynch isn't an option.
PPE: 4
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Vote Count 3.2
Archetype (1): faust
Not Voting (5): Archetype, xeiron, Walrus, Voltaire, EFHW
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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Where I'm going with this is, I'm approaching this more towards normal mafia than RMM mafia.
Normal mafia would have even fewer twists and turns than RMM. Someone caught in a lie would be lynched immediately.
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xeiron, is that true?
It better is, because that's what he told me.
Oh! Intent to vote Archetype once xeiron confirms, then.
We also need to hear from Walrus first. faust and xeiron could be in cahoots. From cautious to voting so suddenly? Do you have a wincon we don't know about?
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No, I simply find faust/xeiron to be a completely implausible pairing. I think we've caught Archetype, and probably Walrus.
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I confirm that Archetype told me during night that he targeted Eevee.
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vote: Archetype
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I will not vote yet.
I need to think through the recent developement a bit more first.
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I will not vote yet.
I need to think through the recent developement a bit more first.
That's fine, no need to put someone at L-1 that early. I would love to hear Arch and Walrus respond to this.
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Hello sorry for the delay, I have been in the hospital lately as you may have seen.
I will catch up soon. For now let me say that I targeted joth last night. My thinking was that my power has a 2/3 chance of being protective, and I thought it was likely that the once-dead individuals were most liable to be made twice-dead. Looks like it didn't work though.
It would seem that I have died, and respawned with a new role and flavor. I could claim them if desired.
Is there anything else specifically to respond to? Otherwise I'll just read and get back to you.
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Vote Count 3.3
Archetype (2): faust, Voltaire
Not Voting (4): Archetype, xeiron, Walrus, EFHW
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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You guys do realize that if I'm scum, Walrus has to be too, right? And since I have 2 lives and he has 1, why aren't you voting for him? You're trying to lynch scum right?
Vote: EFHW
Do people think I'm lying about my role?
I'm pretty sure xeiron and Walrus are Town. EFHW is scum, and her partner is either Voltaire or faust. Voltaire goes from "Well, Eevee's role could just be misleading" to "Archetype is 100% scum" in just a few posts. faust, I fear, is just being mislead. I'd vote for Voltaire, but if I'm wrong (and I really do not think I am) we won't (most likely) auto-lose.
Walrus: Don't claim.
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1. Archetype probably targeted Voltaire, maybe with a roleblock? What other scum power could he have used that doesn't kill? -- Rolecop, but he doesn't really need that since we mass-claimed. -- Some kind of redirection, which wouldn't have effect anyway since Voltaire's power would have been blocked. -- Some delayed effect action, like poisoner or arsonist.
2. Just to cover all the bases, if Archetype was poisoner, he could have targeted Eevee N1. Then Walrus would be the nightkill.
3. Day 2 Archetype said that he saw Voltaire being targeted with killing, investigative, and protective actions. Only the "protective" part was a gamble. The others would have been obvious - Voltaire was killed and he was claiming to investigate him.
4. If faust is telling the truth about xeiron, then why did xeiron want to hold off on reporting results?
This post, especially 1 and 2, make no sense. EFHW has jumped to too many conclusions off of what? Me saying I targeted Eevee but-because-I'm-scum-I-probably-actually-targeted-Voltaire-with-a-Roleblock-no-wait-Arsonist-no-wait-Poisoner.
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faust: Did you Bodyguard me, or did you force me to Bodyguard you?
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1. Archetype probably targeted Voltaire, maybe with a roleblock? What other scum power could he have used that doesn't kill? -- Rolecop, but he doesn't really need that since we mass-claimed. -- Some kind of redirection, which wouldn't have effect anyway since Voltaire's power would have been blocked. -- Some delayed effect action, like poisoner or arsonist.
2. Just to cover all the bases, if Archetype was poisoner, he could have targeted Eevee N1. Then Walrus would be the nightkill.
3. Day 2 Archetype said that he saw Voltaire being targeted with killing, investigative, and protective actions. Only the "protective" part was a gamble. The others would have been obvious - Voltaire was killed and he was claiming to investigate him.
4. If faust is telling the truth about xeiron, then why did xeiron want to hold off on reporting results?
This post, especially 1 and 2, make no sense. EFHW has jumped to too many conclusions off of what? Me saying I targeted Eevee but-because-I'm-scum-I-probably-actually-targeted-Voltaire-with-a-Roleblock-no-wait-Arsonist-no-wait-Poisoner.
Nice try. I'm being thorough, looking for possible contradictions to the obvious conclusion that you and probably Walrus are scum. Your being poisoner is scenario in which Walrus is not scum. Town!walrus protecting you was a scenario in which you might not be scum. I'd love a new role, since mine is used up, but it's not worth it right now.
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Walrus, why joth?
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Archetype, have you explained why you are alive?
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Archetype, have you explained why you are alive?
I have no idea.
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I confirm that Archetype told me during night that he targeted Eevee.
Why are you postponing giving and getting information? What did Archetypes pm say?
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Archetype, have you explained why you are alive?
I have no idea.
Actually it is faust being alive that needs explaining.
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Alright, some thoughts.
So some people seem to suspect Archetype. If I'm understanding correctly, the reasoning appears to be this:
--Archetype claims to have targeted Eevee, who has "paranoid" role. He got a result, which means his action was successful, or he's lying.
--xeiron and faust knew that Archetype was going to do this. faust claims to have bodyguarded Archetype, which means he should have died if Archetype was to die.
I don't know...something about this just smells fishy to me. "Too easy", as it were, although that's not exactly the right word for it. There are alternatives that could have happened that I can think of, and I think it's quite likely that someone is lying, or there are other powers that we haven't accounted for. It all just seems too "neat" of a trap to be unraveled like this...more like a theory that scum would push, to try to get in one more pivotal mislynch. Do we have any confirmation, for example, that faust targeted Arch? I think it's pretty likely that he's not lying about his role--after all, lying about one's first role would seem to be a good way to get double-lynched pretty quick. But maybe he didn't actually target Arch, and he's trying to spin this as scummier than it is. xeiron's role seems harder to fake.
Voltaire and EFHW, why do you think I'm scum? I don't understand exactly how I'm linked to this Archetype scenario. It seems like both of you pointed fingers at me pretty quickly.
I think Volt in particular has been pretty scummy today. Flipping his vote around without much deliberation, just to see what sticks. Doesn't feel like normal, analytical Volt to me. And if someone's been faking a role to mess with night actions, it would likely be someone who has shed his first role already.
My problem with that though is that I think we might be better off lynching one of the two-lifers today. Of course by the raw statistics there's probably a scum or two in there, even if it were random chance (well especially if you're looking from my perspective). And then even if not all these kills came from scum, there is a higher than average chance I think that scum would shoot not themselves, for maximum life preservation. Now it's possible that scum could get real cute and shoot themselves instead, but I think that's less likely. Add to that the fact that if we mis-eliminate another person, we're what, dead, or close to it? And it seems like scum wants to remove the one-lifers anyway...we can get some clues tomorrow as to who's who by looking at who stays alive.
So I think one of the two-life lynches is best. Arch and xeiron have given me townier vibes lately, so I would prefer a faust or EFHW lynch. And you know I've been suspicious of faust all game, so I'll vote: faust again.
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EFHW, well as I said I wanted to target one of the once-dead players so I might have a good chance to protect them. I assumed that they would be the most vulnerable to NKs, and I thought it would be more efficient to try to protect someone rather than block a killer.
I chose joth specifically because, well, I had three choices based on that criterion. I didn't want to target Volt again, although I considered it. I did a quick reread of D2 and in retrospect, I thought Eevee seemed townier than joth, so I decided to target joth, as he might also be the one who might have a NK/do something scummy at night as well with his new second role.
As you can see this is kind of confused reasoning, well, because it was a confusing role for me. I never really figured out if I should be using it on a town- or scumread, so I sort of compromised. Steve Holt doesn't think too hard, he just acts. STEVE HOLT!
But of course he's dead now. So let this be a lesson to you...always leave a note.
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Walrus you are suspected b/c if Eevee is the nk then the shooter would also die since he was paranoid. faust's claim is irrelevant to Archetype's. Even if faust had said nothing, e would still suspect Archetype because he is alive. If you had said that you protected either Arch or Faust, that would have cast doubt on the case against Archetype.
I brought up poisoner because that is one way you could still be town. Then Arch is alive because he didn't target Eevee at all on N2 and you would ne the nk. . Lacking a delayed kill it looks a lot like you killed Eevee and Arch lied about targeting Eevee.
The flavor also suggests you killed them both at once, with your motorcycle. I don't know how seriously we should take that.
How could scum have known Eevee was PGO? They would submit kill orders before getting investigation results. What are the scenarios you can think of that explain these results and you and Arch are innocent?
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I'm ready to vote either Walrus or Arch. I'll start with vote: Walrus but am happy to move. Ironically, Arch does have a point about killing Walrus first, as that eliminates a scum power role. But the lack of apparent scum pr effects and the need for many deaths makes me worried about delayed kills. Arsonist could be very bad for us, and I think Arch is more likely than Walrus.
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Vote Count 3.4
Archetype (2): faust, Voltaire
EFHW (1): Archetype
faust (1): Walrus
Walrus (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): xeiron
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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I'm ready to vote either Walrus or Arch. I'll start with vote: Walrus but am happy to move. Ironically, Arch does have a point about killing Walrus first, as that eliminates a scum power role. But the lack of apparent scum pr effects and the need for many deaths makes me worried about delayed kills. Arsonist could be very bad for us, and I think Arch is more likely than Walrus.
Are Walrus and I your two top scumreads?
Walrus: I strongly suggest you vote for EFHW or Voltaire.
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Actually unvote. I want to lynch Archetype. Someone objected to L1 earlier. Are you ready now, whoever you were? I'm on phone or I'd look it up.
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Well, maybe there was an unaccounted for night action, like a bus driver was the first thing that came to mind. Or maybe we've been misconceptualizing the flipped roles--maybe a Paranoid Hook Owner is different from a Paranoid Gun Owner. Maybe he only killed his babysittee when he was targeted, not the targeter.
Honestly, I hadn't thought it through completely. I'm still pretty hopped up on painkillers lol. I just felt that something was off about the tone and pacing of the Arch wagon. I mean, I could have claimed that I targeted whomever if I wanted to miscast suspicion. But I didn't, I targeted joth.
Arch, why do you strongly suggest that?
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Because EFHW is scum, Walrus. I don't think Faust is and really want to hit scum today.
Also, I'm pretty sure I've figured out what happened with the whole Eevee thing. Going into mod-mode
Eevee is a Paranoid Hook Owning Babysitter.
Each night he may target one player. That player will be protected from night kill. However, if you are killed, you will in turn kill your target and any other players that targeted them that night.
End mod mode
This explains why jotheonah, Eevee, and Walrus all were killed. Eevee targeted jotheonah to protect him. Walrus targeted Eevee because he's cool like that. Scum wants us to think they killed Walrus, but they figured I would target Walrus and possibly see Voltaire target Walrus. So instead they shot Eevee. Sadly I rolled Tracker instead of Watcher, so I ended up not catching Voltaire in the act.
The end. Now lets lynch EFHW.
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faust: Did you Bodyguard me, or did you force me to Bodyguard you?
I bodyguarded you. Thought it would be nice to have a investigative role around.
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I don't know...something about this just smells fishy to me. "Too easy", as it were, although that's not exactly the right word for it. There are alternatives that could have happened that I can think of, and I think it's quite likely that someone is lying, or there are other powers that we haven't accounted for. It all just seems too "neat" of a trap to be unraveled like this...more like a theory that scum would push, to try to get in one more pivotal mislynch. Do we have any confirmation, for example, that faust targeted Arch? I think it's pretty likely that he's not lying about his role--after all, lying about one's first role would seem to be a good way to get double-lynched pretty quick. But maybe he didn't actually target Arch, and he's trying to spin this as scummier than it is. xeiron's role seems harder to fake.
Why don't you share these with us?
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Actually unvote. I want to lynch Archetype. Someone objected to L1 earlier. Are you ready now, whoever you were? I'm on phone or I'd look it up.
Yes, I'm ready.
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Because EFHW is scum, Walrus. I don't think Faust is and really want to hit scum today.
Also, I'm pretty sure I've figured out what happened with the whole Eevee thing. Going into mod-mode
Eevee is a Paranoid Hook Owning Babysitter.
Each night he may target one player. That player will be protected from night kill. However, if you are killed, you will in turn kill your target and any other players that targeted them that night.
End mod mode
This explains why jotheonah, Eevee, and Walrus all were killed. Eevee targeted jotheonah to protect him. Walrus targeted Eevee because he's cool like that. Scum wants us to think they killed Walrus, but they figured I would target Walrus and possibly see Voltaire target Walrus. So instead they shot Eevee. Sadly I rolled Tracker instead of Watcher, so I ended up not catching Voltaire in the act.
The end. Now lets lynch EFHW.
Or we just use Ockham's Razor. Paranoid Hook Owner = Paranoid Gun Owner. Eevee babysitted jotheonah (probably hoping to take him down with himself). Walrus is scum and shot Eevee. Archetype claims having targted Eevee, who was about to die, how convenient. In reality, Arch targeted Voltaire to block him. Walrus probably also used his second role on someone, maybe me.
What's supporting this scenario, by the way, is that Walrus announced that he wanted to target Eevee because he thought Eevee would be the night kill. He said this to xeiron apparently, he will be able to confirm. Now how about that?
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Because EFHW is scum, Walrus. I don't think Faust is and really want to hit scum today.
Also, I'm pretty sure I've figured out what happened with the whole Eevee thing. Going into mod-mode
Eevee is a Paranoid Hook Owning Babysitter.
Each night he may target one player. That player will be protected from night kill. However, if you are killed, you will in turn kill your target and any other players that targeted them that night.
End mod mode
This explains why jotheonah, Eevee, and Walrus all were killed. Eevee targeted jotheonah to protect him. Walrus targeted Eevee because he's cool like that. Scum wants us to think they killed Walrus, but they figured I would target Walrus and possibly see Voltaire target Walrus. So instead they shot Eevee. Sadly I rolled Tracker instead of Watcher, so I ended up not catching Voltaire in the act.
The end. Now lets lynch EFHW.
I do not buy this explanation. Makes me more likely to believe in a Archetype - Walrus team.
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Wait.
unvote
EFHW, what was the negative effect that was taking place during the last night?
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Wait.
unvote
EFHW, what was the negative effect that was taking place during the last night?
When you targeted me N1, we became lovers for the next day and night.
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You guys do realize that if I'm scum, Walrus has to be too, right? And since I have 2 lives and he has 1, why aren't you voting for him? You're trying to lynch scum right?
Vote: EFHW
Do people think I'm lying about my role?
I'm pretty sure xeiron and Walrus are Town. EFHW is scum, and her partner is either Voltaire or faust. Voltaire goes from "Well, Eevee's role could just be misleading" to "Archetype is 100% scum" in just a few posts. faust, I fear, is just being mislead. I'd vote for Voltaire, but if I'm wrong (and I really do not think I am) we won't (most likely) auto-lose.
Walrus: Don't claim.
Archetype, why is it impossible for you to be scum with anybody else than Walrus?
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Wait.
unvote
EFHW, what was the negative effect that was taking place during the last night?
When you targeted me N1, we became lovers for the next day and night.
Ohh, that's romantic!
Seriously though, this seems like something nice and flavorful and I don't think it's a lie. Plus, it doesnt explain why Archetype (rsp. me) didn't die. So back to
vote: Archetype
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Or we just use Ockham's Razor. Paranoid Hook Owner = Paranoid Gun Owner. Eevee babysitted jotheonah (probably hoping to take him down with himself). Walrus is scum and shot Eevee. Archetype claims having targted Eevee, who was about to die, how convenient. In reality, Arch targeted Voltaire to block him. Walrus probably also used his second role on someone, maybe me.
What's supporting this scenario, by the way, is that Walrus announced that he wanted to target Eevee because he thought Eevee would be the night kill. He said this to xeiron apparently, he will be able to confirm. Now how about that?
I am not immediately convinced by our PHO = PGO argument. My experience says that when a mod changes a name of a mafiascum standardole, they also changes the role a little.
I think Paranoid hook owner is a variant of PGO. But not the exact same role. It might be a variant that lets Archetype target eevee and still live, or it might not. I am not willing to draw a conclusion yet.
As for the second paragraph, there have been some miscommunication between us. First, we are talking about Archetype, not walrus (I suppose that's just a typo from you)
Second, Archetype told me that he thought eevee would do the nightkill, not be killed. (That was me being unclear in our QT)
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Still here, still happy with my Archetype vote.
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As for the second paragraph, there have been some miscommunication between us. First, we are talking about Archetype, not walrus (I suppose that's just a typo from you)
Second, Archetype told me that he thought eevee would do the nightkill, not be killed. (That was me being unclear in our QT)
Yes, the first thing was a typo.
For the second, interesting. Has Archetype expressed a scumread on Eevee D2? He voted EFHW in the end, but of course he couldn't vote Eevee then.
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I confirm that Archetype told me during night that he targeted Eevee.
Why are you postponing giving and getting information? What did Archetypes pm say?
I am looking for possibilities for catching scum in a lie.
It is much easier for them to create fakeclaimes and cover theories when they have all the facts.
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xeiron does remind me that in my role, only one of the people targeting me was affected by the negative outcome, and that the person chosen would be the one that was earliest in the resolution chain. According to the list he gave me, killing is earlier than inspecting, so if he is doing the same thing with Eevee then Arch would not be killed.
HOWEVER, this restriction makes sense with my role b/c the person targeting me became temporary lovers with me, and having three or more people connected that way would be way too swingy. It does not make as much sense with Eevee's role, b/c we have a lot of extra lives that need to be used up.
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So what are you saying because of that, EFHW? I got lost somewhere in the explanation.
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xeiron does remind me that in my role, only one of the people targeting me was affected by the negative outcome, and that the person chosen would be the one that was earliest in the resolution chain. According to the list he gave me, killing is earlier than inspecting, so if he is doing the same thing with Eevee then Arch would not be killed.
HOWEVER, this restriction makes sense with my role b/c the person targeting me became temporary lovers with me, and having three or more people connected that way would be way too swingy. It does not make as much sense with Eevee's role, b/c we have a lot of extra lives that need to be used up.
Do you have a list of resolution priority?
That may be very importaint!
Do you mind posting it?
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Vote Count 3.5
Archetype (2): Voltaire, faust
EFHW (1): Archetype
faust (1): Walrus
Not Voting (2): xeiron, EFHW
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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I think the main question now, is if it is possible to explain Walrus' death without him being scum.
I mean, he could have been nightkilled by scum, but what then about Eevee and Jotheonah?
He said he did not target eevee, so if he did, he must have been lying ergo scum.
Archetypes explanation theoretically works, but I do not like it.
Any other explanations?
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I think the main question now, is if it is possible to explain Walrus' death without him being scum.
I mean, he could have been nightkilled by scum, but what then about Eevee and Jotheonah?
He said he did not target eevee, so if he did, he must have been lying ergo scum.
Archetypes explanation theoretically works, but I do not like it.
Any other explanations?
If Eevee was a delayed kill from N1, Walrus could have been the N2 nk.
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xeiron does remind me that in my role, only one of the people targeting me was affected by the negative outcome, and that the person chosen would be the one that was earliest in the resolution chain. According to the list he gave me, killing is earlier than inspecting, so if he is doing the same thing with Eevee then Arch would not be killed.
HOWEVER, this restriction makes sense with my role b/c the person targeting me became temporary lovers with me, and having three or more people connected that way would be way too swingy. It does not make as much sense with Eevee's role, b/c we have a lot of extra lives that need to be used up.
Do you have a list of resolution priority?
That may be very importaint!
Do you mind posting it?
yuma gave it to me in a pm, so I don't know if I can quote it. OTOH, he did say in the OP that he intended to put that list up, but he never did.
yuma: Can I quote the resolution chain you gave me in our pm discussion?
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So what are you saying because of that, EFHW? I got lost somewhere in the explanation.
I'm saying that if Eevee had an alteration of his PGO role that mirrored mine, only one person would have been killed from his paranoia, and the person killing him (presumably Walrus) would be killed rather than someone investigating him (Arch's claim).
It is a reason Arch could have survived and not be scum. I'm not saying it happened that way, b/c having only one targeter affected makes sense with my role (which created lovers), but doesn't with Eevee's, which took lives (of which we have too many).
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Well, I think the PGO != PHO is the best explanation here. The roles revealed so far have been mostly far from vanilla. Right now I'm imagining the most likely possibility to be this:
Eevee targets joth. Eevee's power somehow 'transfers' vengefulness to joth for the night, but also links them together death-wise. So Arch targets Eevee, no death. I target joth, I do die. Scum shoots Eevee, both Eevee and joth die.
I think the second likeliest answer is that someone (maybe Voltaire) is lying about his role and messed with the night actions yesterday.
Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
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Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
We could just lynch you.
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yuma gave it to me in a pm, so I don't know if I can quote it. OTOH, he did say in the OP that he intended to put that list up, but he never did.
yuma: Can I quote the resolution chain you gave me in our pm discussion?
No quoting of mod supplied info.
But here is the resolution chain, from mafiascum, that I am basing night actions off (mine varies somewhat due to different/new roles and as such I can't fully disclose here)
Copy
Hide
Bus
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect
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Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
We could just lynch you.
I also think that after EFHW's explanations, I would feel a little better about a Walrus lynch. Look here:
vote: Walrus
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Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
We could just lynch you.
The only thing more frustrating than a dummy flip is a town flip! :P
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Well, I think the PGO != PHO is the best explanation here. The roles revealed so far have been mostly far from vanilla. Right now I'm imagining the most likely possibility to be this:
Eevee targets joth. Eevee's power somehow 'transfers' vengefulness to joth for the night, but also links them together death-wise. So Arch targets Eevee, no death. I target joth, I do die. Scum shoots Eevee, both Eevee and joth die.
I think the second likeliest answer is that someone (maybe Voltaire) is lying about his role and messed with the night actions yesterday.
Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
Walrus it is SO unlikely that you died from targeting joth. SO unlikely that I am more convinced you and Arch are both scum.
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Walrus, you said earlier you don't mind telling us your new role. You might want to do so now.
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SO unlikely according to what? Your preconceived notions of how a PGO should work, which may not apply in this game?
The more I think about it the more I think my explanation is correct. And again, if I wanted to not appear suspicious, I would have just claimed to have targeted Eevee. Who would have stopped me? Bam, there you go, situation neatly wrapped up.
However I didn't. I targeted joth. I'm after the truth, like the rest of you non-scum in the crowd.
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
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We haven't had anyone's two lives match that closely, have we? Walrus claims to still be a doctor, he was sort of a doctor earlier.
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I'd prefer we stick with Archetype because he has an extra life if he's wrong.*
*how do we tell if we're wrong?
So I'll lynch either of them, really, I guess.
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I am increasingly uneasy that xeiron hasn't shared what he learned about Archetype's pm.
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Well, I think the PGO != PHO is the best explanation here. The roles revealed so far have been mostly far from vanilla. Right now I'm imagining the most likely possibility to be this:
Eevee targets joth. Eevee's power somehow 'transfers' vengefulness to joth for the night, but also links them together death-wise. So Arch targets Eevee, no death. I target joth, I do die. Scum shoots Eevee, both Eevee and joth die.
I think the second likeliest answer is that someone (maybe Voltaire) is lying about his role and messed with the night actions yesterday.
Either way it feels like we're walking into an Archetype mislynch to me. Of course it's so frustrating when the first flip is just going to be a dummy anyway.
Walrus it is SO unlikely that you died from targeting joth. SO unlikely that I am more convinced you and Arch are both scum.
SO unlikely according to what? Your preconceived notions of how a PGO should work, which may not apply in this game?
The more I think about it the more I think my explanation is correct. And again, if I wanted to not appear suspicious, I would have just claimed to have targeted Eevee. Who would have stopped me? Bam, there you go, situation neatly wrapped up.
However I didn't. I targeted joth. I'm after the truth, like the rest of you non-scum in the crowd.
Claiming you targeted Eevee wouldn't wrap anything up. We already think you did! Claiming you targeted Arch or faust would have weakened the case against both of you. But you risk getting caught in a lie.
You also have not expressed any suspicion towards Archetype for seeming to have survived targeting Eevee. In your message (bolded) above, you say you think Arch would be a mislynch.
Eevee wasn't only paranoid, he was also babysitter. More later.
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Ok, fine then. So if I'm lying now, why did I choose to risk getting caught in this particular lie? Why wouldn't I have claimed to target Arch, or something, which would have exonerated me more?
I just get the feeling that the case on Arch is flawed.
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The biggest flaw in the Archetype case is why did he say he targeted Eevee at all? Once scum!Archetype saw that Eevee was PGO/H he wouldn't want to claim targeting Eevee. He could have just told xeiron he changed his mind.
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Ok, fine then. So if I'm lying now, why did I choose to risk getting caught in this particular lie? Why wouldn't I have claimed to target Arch, or something, which would have exonerated me more?
I just get the feeling that the case on Arch is flawed.
What I meant was that you aren't lying now, you did target Joth. The question is with what.
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The biggest flaw in the Archetype case is why did he say he targeted Eevee at all? Once scum!Archetype saw that Eevee was PGO/H he wouldn't want to claim targeting Eevee. He could have just told xeiron he changed his mind.
No, he couldn't; the night action submission deadline was 24 hours before the night ended.
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Ok, fine then. So if I'm lying now, why did I choose to risk getting caught in this particular lie? Why wouldn't I have claimed to target Arch, or something, which would have exonerated me more?
I just get the feeling that the case on Arch is flawed.
What I meant was that you aren't lying now, you did target Joth. The question is with what.
Wait, that doesn't work. nvm. We do think you are lying.
Say you are telling the truth, and you targeted Joth. Does that mean you think you were the nk? I really don't think the babysitter role lends itself to passing on the paranoid role, unless that fits flavor? If it did, I would expect Eevee to keep the paranoia himself as well. If you were the nk, why did Eevee die?
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The biggest flaw in the Archetype case is why did he say he targeted Eevee at all? Once scum!Archetype saw that Eevee was PGO/H he wouldn't want to claim targeting Eevee. He could have just told xeiron he changed his mind.
No, he couldn't; the night action submission deadline was 24 hours before the night ended.
Did xeiron actually SEE him place the order to target Eevee? Or are you saying he talked to xeiron after he already placed the order? Several people turned in late orders.
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The biggest flaw in the Archetype case is why did he say he targeted Eevee at all? Once scum!Archetype saw that Eevee was PGO/H he wouldn't want to claim targeting Eevee. He could have just told xeiron he changed his mind.
No, he couldn't; the night action submission deadline was 24 hours before the night ended.
Did xeiron actually SEE him place the order to target Eevee? Or are you saying he talked to xeiron after he already placed the order? Several people turned in late orders.
xeiron couldn't have talked to Archetype before he targeted someone, because for xeiron to be able to talk to Archetype, all night action already need to be resolved, so it is certain that xeiron wasn't roleblocked or something.
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
Well, he told me that Arch likely does have an investigative role, for what that's worth.
I do not think xeiron is scum. Why would scum!xeiron target me N1?
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faust, what can you tell us about your qt conversations with xeiron?
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
Well, he told me that Arch likely does have an investigative role, for what that's worth.
I do not think xeiron is scum. Why would scum!xeiron target me N1?
Well, you're both not in the US and your time zones are similar. Why NOT you?
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Well, we didn't talk too much. Last night, he said he thought Walrus and Archetype likely have the same alignment (he thought more likely town). I asked him why he thought that, he gave a convincing answer that I could repeat here. Then after night actions were submitted, I told him my target, he told me his, and said Archetype targeted Eevee and he likely has an investigative role. Then the thread was locked.
Do you also want to know about N1?
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
Well, he told me that Arch likely does have an investigative role, for what that's worth.
I do not think xeiron is scum. Why would scum!xeiron target me N1?
Well, you're both not in the US and your time zones are similar. Why NOT you?
He is a Role Cop. My role was revealed to scum. scum!xeiron gets no additional knowledge from targeting me.
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Well, we didn't talk too much. Last night, he said he thought Walrus and Archetype likely have the same alignment (he thought more likely town). I asked him why he thought that, he gave a convincing answer that I could repeat here. Then after night actions were submitted, I told him my target, he told me his, and said Archetype targeted Eevee and he likely has an investigative role. Then the thread was locked.
Do you also want to know about N1?
sure!
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Vote Count 3.5
Archetype (1): Voltaire
EFHW (1): Archetype
faust (1): Walrus
Walrus (1): faust
xeiron (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): xeiron
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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In N1, we spent some time talking about his role: he claimed, and I told him how his targeting worked exactly for me. He said he targeted me because my role seemed too powerful. I told him something so that he didn't believe that anymore. I also told him my night target and which action I performed. xeiron then states a town read on me because my role fits both the part of my role PM revealed and ashersky's role. He gave his reads in case he died, I don't think they're that relevant to reveal here. jotheonah was his top scum read. Then the night ended.
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I just passed Voltaire in the Goko Pro Rankings
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
The reason to hold back information is if that I may want to ask questions for clarification before I but forth information that may contradict other claims.
But I think I am not missing any oppurtunities by letting out some more now.
First, Archetypes PM says that he is capable of gathering information. That implies that he have a investigating role, like the one he claimed.
Second, there is one thing I noticed that I think may incriminate Archetype.
Archetype said to me that he did target eevee before the night action submission deadline, but got the resuts only after the night was over. I have the impression that in this game, all night action are submitted, processed and answered after the first night stage. Then the second night stage (around 24 hours long) is mainly for QT talking, and stuff. Meaning that Archetype may be lying about his role.
Do anyone else get results at the end of night?
Or is everyone as me; gets results after the first night stage?
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As for lynching, I am leaning towards lynching someone with one life (walrus, voltaire) rather than two lives if possible. The reason is that if we lynch them, we get immediate response in the form of a allignment flip. That is what we need now.
And even if we should mislynch, we will probably get another chance. I believe there is a pretty high chance that at least one of Voltaire and Walrus is scum. If we mislynch one, and the other is scum, scum would not be able to end the game as all their targets would have two lives.
On the other hand, if we lynch someone with two lives, we learn nothing and we will be on the same place tomorrow as today, exept that we can in no circumstances afford a mislynch.
We should only lynch someone with two lives today if we believe both remaining scum has two lives
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
I think your role is closer to what (I'm guessing) ashersky's was. "Aid-Requiring" meaning he needs someone to target him for his power to work.
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Ok, I see he couldn't have talked to xeiron until after he was neighborized, so he would have placed the order before he talked to xeiron. I'm glad to have that objection taken care of!
I'm going to vote: xeiron. He said he wants to catch people in lies, so he was holding back information. But this is the lie catching stage right now. We are about to lynch Archetype. His pm info that xeiron would have received is very important, whether it supports or incriminates Arch, or does nothing at all.
The reason to hold back information is if that I may want to ask questions for clarification before I but forth information that may contradict other claims.
But I think I am not missing any oppurtunities by letting out some more now.
First, Archetypes PM says that he is capable of gathering information. That implies that he have a investigating role, like the one he claimed.
Second, there is one thing I noticed that I think may incriminate Archetype.
Archetype said to me that he did target eevee before the night action submission deadline, but got the resuts only after the night was over. I have the impression that in this game, all night action are submitted, processed and answered after the first night stage. Then the second night stage (around 24 hours long) is mainly for QT talking, and stuff. Meaning that Archetype may be lying about his role.
Do anyone else get results at the end of night?
Or is everyone as me; gets results after the first night stage?
I think the only person who's roles is similar to mine (an Investigative role) is Voltaire's (if he's telling the truth). Do you get your results at the half-way point, or at the very end? I doublechecked my Role PM and it said that I'll receive my results (and whatever power I ended up using) at the end of the night.
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
Thought experiment:
If walrus doctors Faust and faust bodyguard walrus, both would be practically unkillable.
Or did i miss something?
Two townmembers that can protect eachother until infinity sounds totally broken. I smell a fakeclaim somewhere.
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xeiron and faust, Archetype could have included most or all of his pm, is that right? It seems suspicious that he didn't do that, seeing as we had all claimed.
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
Thought experiment:
If walrus doctors Faust and faust bodyguard walrus, both would be practically unkillable.
Or did i miss something?
Two townmembers that can protect eachother until infinity sounds totally broken. I smell a fakeclaim somewhere.
Well Walrus said his power was randomly one of three. Also roleblocking would stop it as well.
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unvote. I also think xeiron has a point about lynching someone with only one life left.
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
Thought experiment:
If walrus doctors Faust and faust bodyguard walrus, both would be practically unkillable.
Or did i miss something?
Two townmembers that can protect eachother until infinity sounds totally broken. I smell a fakeclaim somewhere.
Well Walrus said his power was randomly one of three. Also roleblocking would stop it as well.
That was his old power. His new one allows for infinite protection, which is indeed suspicious.
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xeiron and faust, Archetype could have included most or all of his pm, is that right? It seems suspicious that he didn't do that, seeing as we had all claimed.
You, there is only a fraction of the PM from which yuma lets you decide what is quoted. I think it was only a sentence or two from me.
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I don't like the way EFHW is playing right now. It seems like she's trying to sniff around for a viable lynch, rather than actually scumhunting. vote: EFHW
I imagined that ash's "aid-requiring" thing was more that somebody else had to target his target for it to work. I targeted Volt, so did he, so it fired...but maybe not. Either way my thing is conceptually similar.
xeiron, that's an interesting point. I don't think it's likely that faust is lying about his role, as I said. I would guess that scum has some sort of way around it...you know, roleblock, strongman, bus driver, something like that. The fact that we would have to announce it and plan ahead of time (to do it on purpose) possibly means scum could mess with it somehow.
Well, I do think it's likely that the scum are hiding among the two-lifers. Especially if you're standing from where I am, obviously...just by the numbers, and that scum would try to play self-preservationally as possible.
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Sure, I'll claim. You know I'm a claiming addict haha! And this is one which is better to reveal:
I am George Michael, the Overprotected Nice Guy. It basically means I'm a doctor, but only if somebody else targets me that night. So yeah, somebody target me!
That's one reason I don't want to vote for Voltaire right now...his role seems to be a nice parallel to mine, mechanically and flavor-wise, even if it is a little dodgy verifiability-wise. And I still think one of the two-lifers is a better choice.
Thought experiment:
If walrus doctors Faust and faust bodyguard walrus, both would be practically unkillable.
Or did i miss something?
Two townmembers that can protect eachother until infinity sounds totally broken. I smell a fakeclaim somewhere.
This is a really good point. I think Walrus is the lynch of choice today.
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Walrus is my lynch of choice as well at the moment.
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Walrus is my lynch of choice as well at the moment.
What keeps you from voting then?
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vote: Walrus
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Well, well... xeiron, Voltaire, are you ready to hammer? I think having the night fall over the weekend would be nice, and I do believe we exchanged all the important arguments here.
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Intent to hammer Walrus. Anything in particular we want? He's already claimed.
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Intent to hammer Walrus. Anything in particular we want? He's already claimed.
It's not the hammer, xeiron hasn't voted yet.
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That's what I get for skimming this morning. Intent to intent to hammer? :P
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Am I the only one that would like to take the time we have on his day?
It could be the last day, If we lynch wrong.
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Am I the only one that would like to take the time we have on his day?
It could be the last day, If we lynch wrong.
What else do you want to discuss?
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Voltaire, do you get your investigation results at the end of the first night stage or at the end of the whole night?
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Walrus is my lynch of choice as well at the moment.
What keeps you from voting then?
...says Mr. Pushy Scum. What, you weren't winning the game fast enough? Arch's lynch wasn't easy enough? Oh, something doesn't quite make sense between faust's role and Walrus'. Better lynch Walrus!
This game has been full of confusion. It's practically a theme of the setup. I would bet that each scum individually has the ability to resolve this so-called paradox--there's a hundred ways around it. I do consider xeiron towny for thinking of it...I think, unless he was trying to plant the suggestion for a mislynch. But to immediately push it as an auto-lynch in a game of this RMM-itude is lazy and scummy.
And I was thinking about this last night...maybe lying about one's first role is not as implausible as I had assumed before. After, all, we've had some debate about the nature of the hook, and aid-requiring, even though those people have "flipped". A flip will tell us something, but not everything...so long as they stay within reasonable bounds of the flavor name, they probably wouldn't get double lynched. So it would have to be more of a fudge than a full-blown fake claim, but there's still probably a lot of latitude to hide little white lies in there. xeiron's ability could mitigate this I guess; I don't know exactly how much information was revealed. I'm not sure where I'm going with this exactly, but maybe this isn't even a paradox at all, and it makes me trust the two-lifers even less.
PPE DONT HAMMER ME BRO
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Voltaire, do you get your investigation results at the end of the first night stage or at the end of the whole night?
My PM does not say.
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Voltaire, do you get your investigation results at the end of the first night stage or at the end of the whole night?
investigation results usually come at the end of the night. You are probably getting your actions resolved sooner so you can have a conversation that same night with your new neighbor.
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Walrus is getting a lot more riled up than usual, and he's been under some pretty heavy pressure before (as town) without being so angry. Has anyone played with him where he was scum?
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Wait, if xeiron hasn't voted yet I can vote without hammering. It's early in the morning. :P
vote: Walrus
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L-1, obviously
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Volt getting really pushy here too...a little eager with that "hammer", aren't we? He's either being lazy or scummy, and I feel like he's been off all day. I was thinking faust/EFHW scumteam right now. But if we're deadset on a one-lifer, Volt "my night action results are literally unconfirmable" aire is a way better lynch than I am.
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Walrus is getting a lot more riled up than usual, and he's been under some pretty heavy pressure before (as town) without being so angry. Has anyone played with him where he was scum?
I can get riled up when people are piling on the pressure. The fact that I'm still dealing with abdominal pain doesn't help. I *should* have gotten more riled up when I got mislynched in Game of Thrones, while Volt was scratching for his life, and that moment still scars me haha. Not like we would have won that game anyway.
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Alternate theory: we've likely pegged the scum team in poor fakeclaims/lies.
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Volt getting really pushy here too...a little eager with that "hammer", aren't we? He's either being lazy or scummy, and I feel like he's been off all day. I was thinking faust/EFHW scumteam right now. But if we're deadset on a one-lifer, Volt "my night action results are literally unconfirmable" aire is a way better lynch than I am.
I am pretty sure Faust/EFHW is not scum together.
What I am afraid of is one of them being scum with Archetype.
Unless someone unvotes we will know when Archetype shows up. If he is scum with a another two-liver he will hammer and win.
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Volt getting really pushy here too...a little eager with that "hammer", aren't we? He's either being lazy or scummy, and I feel like he's been off all day. I was thinking faust/EFHW scumteam right now. But if we're deadset on a one-lifer, Volt "my night action results are literally unconfirmable" aire is a way better lynch than I am.
I am pretty sure Faust/EFHW is not scum together.
What I am afraid of is one of them being scum with Archetype.
Unless someone unvotes we will know when Archetype shows up. If he is scum with a another two-liver he will hammer and win.
I don't think it's that easy...
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I'm going to work now. I'll be around again to post in about another 3-4 hours. If you have any questions or anything, please ask me now. If you hammer me, well then, good game jerks.
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Volt getting really pushy here too...a little eager with that "hammer", aren't we? He's either being lazy or scummy, and I feel like he's been off all day. I was thinking faust/EFHW scumteam right now. But if we're deadset on a one-lifer, Volt "my night action results are literally unconfirmable" aire is a way better lynch than I am.
I am pretty sure Faust/EFHW is not scum together.
What I am afraid of is one of them being scum with Archetype.
Unless someone unvotes we will know when Archetype shows up. If he is scum with a another two-liver he will hammer and win.
I don't think it's that easy...
It is.
Except for some obscure edgecases.
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It is.
Except for some obscure edgecases.
I wouldn't consider this an obscure edge case:
Walrus dies, flips town. Now, if scum NKs Voltaire, we get to a 2v2 situation and they win...
Except hey, I'm a bodyguard with two lives! I'll just protect Voltaire, and scum can't win.
Of course this doesn't work if you think that I'm scum. But I tought you don't.
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It is.
Except for some obscure edgecases.
I wouldn't consider this an obscure edge case:
Walrus dies, flips town. Now, if scum NKs Voltaire, we get to a 2v2 situation and they win...
Except hey, I'm a bodyguard with two lives! I'll just protect Voltaire, and scum can't win.
Of course this doesn't work if you think that I'm scum. But I tought you don't.
And we reach another day with two scum and three town.
Now lets say scum is nice with us and claim scum.
We lynch one of them. They will still both live, and can kill you or voltaire in the coming night. Except during the obscure edgecase of you getting a totally awesome role during your second life.
There is pretty much nothing we can do if we mislynch today and both scum still have two lives.
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Ah, I guess you're right. Sorry I hadn't thought this far.
Hm. Lynch Archetype then? I could vote there as well for sure.
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Vote: Archetype
xeiron is right that this is safer.
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Vote: Archetype
Xeiron is right that this is safer.
It is not safer.
Imagine a scenario where I and EFHW is scum.
We lynch Archetype today.
Now we can NK Archetype/walrus/archetype, take a lynch and kill another and win without much risk (still some edgecases where town can win I think)
We are almost in a LYLO scenario today, except that we can survcive mislynching Walrus if Voltaire is scum, and the other way around.
So walrus is safer. But not completely safe.
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last night xeiron said Walrus was safer! But I'm game for either.
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What it comes down to for me, is whether the probability of Archtype is scum with EFHW or Faust is greater than the probabiliy of Voltaire being scum.
Archetype said earlier that he could only be scum with Walrus.
You guys do realize that if I'm scum, Walrus has to be too, right? And since I have 2 lives and he has 1, why aren't you voting for him? You're trying to lynch scum right?
Vote: EFHW
Do people think I'm lying about my role?
I'm pretty sure xeiron and Walrus are Town. EFHW is scum, and her partner is either Voltaire or faust. Voltaire goes from "Well, Eevee's role could just be misleading" to "Archetype is 100% scum" in just a few posts. faust, I fear, is just being mislead. I'd vote for Voltaire, but if I'm wrong (and I really do not think I am) we won't (most likely) auto-lose.
Walrus: Don't claim.
If someone can explain to me so that I understand why any Archetype/EFHW or Archetype/faust scumteam must be impossible, I am ready to lynch Walrus.
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Vote: Archetype
Xeiron is right that this is safer.
It is not safer.
Imagine a scenario where I and EFHW is scum.
We lynch Archetype today.
Now we can NK Archetype/walrus/archetype, take a lynch and kill another and win without much risk (still some edgecases where town can win I think)
We are almost in a LYLO scenario today, except that we can survcive mislynching Walrus if Voltaire is scum, and the other way around.
So walrus is safer. But not completely safe.
But this is completely missing the point. I am fairly convinced that Archetype and Walrus are scum. Now I might be wrong about one of them, but not both, I don't think. The question to me is more: If there is exactly one scum in Walrus/Arch, who is the better lynch? And the answer is Archetype.
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What it comes down to for me, is whether the probability of Archtype is scum with EFHW or Faust is greater than the probabiliy of Voltaire being scum.
Archetype said earlier that he could only be scum with Walrus.
You guys do realize that if I'm scum, Walrus has to be too, right? And since I have 2 lives and he has 1, why aren't you voting for him? You're trying to lynch scum right?
Vote: EFHW
Do people think I'm lying about my role?
I'm pretty sure xeiron and Walrus are Town. EFHW is scum, and her partner is either Voltaire or faust. Voltaire goes from "Well, Eevee's role could just be misleading" to "Archetype is 100% scum" in just a few posts. faust, I fear, is just being mislead. I'd vote for Voltaire, but if I'm wrong (and I really do not think I am) we won't (most likely) auto-lose.
Walrus: Don't claim.
If someone can explain to me so that I understand why any Archetype/EFHW or Archetype/faust scumteam must be impossible, I am ready to lynch Walrus.
As for me being scum, I think I've been pretty thoroughly looking at all the angles to make sure we are lynching the right people, including bringing up reasons we might be wrong. That is not something scum aiming for a mislynch would do. In fact, Walrus saying I am "just looking for a lynch" seems very scummy to me b/c from my perspective I've been doing the opposite!
Also, I was seriously unhappy with faust for targeting me N1, and scum partners would not get into that kind of difficulty.
I was leading the charge against archetype, so it's hard to see how I could be his partner.
The dilemma facing us is that we have some obvious results and we are unsure whether to trust them. There was no way that Arch or Walrus could have known that Eevee was PG/HO. So the outcomes of last night look very bad for them. scum!Arch told xeiron he had targeted Eevee, not knowing that would be exposed as a lie, and scum!Walrus nk'd Eevee, not knowing that would kill and thereby expose him.
The only scenario I can think of for Walrus to be town is if we have a kind of delayed kill happening. That could be very bad for us since scum then get 2 kills a night starting N2.
The only scenario for Arch being town is if Eevee was limited to killing just one person in his PG/HO role.
So do we go with the obvious, and if not, who do we lynch?
I'll unvote for now, because I don't have time right now to think through the question of which is better to lynch today. Does anyone have any information that could shed light on the two edgecases I have mentioned?
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Vote Count 3.6
EFHW (2): Archetype, Walrus
Walrus (1): Voltaire
Archetyp (1): faust
Not Voting (2): xeiron, EFHW
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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I think Arch saying he targeted Eevee is significant. He would choose Eevee if he knew Eevee would be dead and unable to contradict him.
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I think Arch saying he targeted Eevee is significant. He would choose Eevee if he knew Eevee would be dead and unable to contradict him.
A good point.
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But I will go for vote: Walrus.
The resonnement is that Eevee died tonight, and it is hard to explain that without scum targeting Eevee. Since Eevee had a PGO related role, we would expect whoever killed eevee would die himself, and therefore sombody among the dead should be scum. jotheonah was town, ergo Walrus is scum.
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But I will go for vote: Walrus.
The resonnement is that Eevee died tonight, and it is hard to explain that without scum targeting Eevee. Since Eevee had a PGO related role, we would expect whoever killed eevee would die himself, and therefore sombody among the dead should be scum. jotheonah was town, ergo Walrus is scum.
Also, having thought about it, I agree it is important to reduce the number of scum players, not just the number of scum lives.
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vote: Walrus. Up to you now, faust.
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Vote Count 3.7
EFHW (2): Archetype, Walrus
Walrus (3): Voltaire, xeiron, EFHW (L-1)
Archetyp (1): faust
Not Voting (0):
With six alive it takes four to lynch
Deadline for Day3 will be 8 days and will be February 26 at 7:00 pm forum time.
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Fine. Vote: Walrus
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Thread Locked!
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Final Day3 Vote Count
EFHW (2): Archetype, Walrus
Walrus (4): Voltaire, xeiron, EFHW, faust
Not Voting (0):
Walrus has been lynched. He was George Michael, the Partial Deathproof Remover, a Bad Bluth.
Night3 will last 48 hours with a 24 hour deadline for night actions. I will be very strict about this tonight. If you do not submit an action it will be forfeited. If you are not planning on using a night action, please still check in. Failure to do so may result in a mod-kill.
Night3 Starts Now!
Thread Still Locked!
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Day4 Start
It was shocking for the Bluth Family to learn that their own George Michael (http://youtu.be/izGwDsrQ1eQ) had betrayed the family. "Guess he never listed when I said "Family is the most important thing" said Michael. "I always told you that breakfast was the most important thing," said George Sr.
Regardless the family still knew they needed to find the rest of the money that had gone missing! As they began their search tragedy struck again. xeiron was killed in the night. He was Ann Veal, the Rolecopping Neighborizer, a Secondary Character.
Vote Count 4.1
Not Voting (5): EFHW, Voltaire, faust, xeiron, Archetype
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynched.
Day4 will have a deadline of 8 days. The deadline is March 3 at 3 pm forum time
Day4 Starts Now! Thread Unlocked!
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After Walrus flipped scum yesterday, can anybody find a narrative where Archetype is not scum?
Or should we just lynch him immediately?
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I guess it is worth to hear what Voltaire learnt during the night.
And Archetype. Ideally, Archetype should have results that could prove that he dit not target Voltaire.
Archetype should claim first.
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I did target Voltaire.
I ended up Following him with "Investigative" as the results. So Voltaire is NOT scum. Xeiron isnt. So its either Faust or EFHW.
Vote: faust
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you targeted Voltaire? So he couldn't catch you, I assume. Vote: Archetype. That's L-2 (faust is at L-2 as well).
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Vote: EFHW i reread the pages leading up to Walrus's lynch, as I suggest everyone does the same. I was leaning faust, but near the very end EFHW unvotes off of Walrus.
There is one part of my role that I havent revealed yet. Do you think I should share it xeiron? You're the only one who knows what it is.
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I tried to cop Archetype. No result. I see he admits to targeting me. Intent to vote him, want everyone else to check in first.
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Vote Count 4.2
Archetype (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Archetype
Not Voting (3): Voltaire, faust, xeiron
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynched.
Day4 will have a deadline of 8 days. The deadline is March 3 at 3 pm forum time
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Well, interesting. FWIW, I targeted Voltaire tonight. Figured scum would either target him to not have him get a result or kill him. Seems that I was right.
Archetype, why did you target Voltaire? I also propose you full-claim immediately.
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I tried to cop Archetype. No result. I see he admits to targeting me. Intent to vote him, want everyone else to check in first.
Voltaire, does your action still count as performed if someone targets you? So would you show up as having a night action tonight? Or are you just roleblocked, in which case Archetype should have received "nothing".
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Vote: EFHW i reread the pages leading up to Walrus's lynch, as I suggest everyone does the same. I was leaning faust, but near the very end EFHW unvotes off of Walrus.
There is one part of my role that I havent revealed yet. Do you think I should share it xeiron? You're the only one who knows what it is.
You may claim if you want, but I do not think it would help much, as it do not make you any townier.
I am disapointet that you targeted Voltaire even after I told you during night that noing so would be incredibly scummy of you.
vote: Archetype
That is L - 1
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Intent to hammer. Want to hear Voltaire's and Archetype's answers to my questions first though.
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I tried to cop Archetype. No result. I see he admits to targeting me. Intent to vote him, want everyone else to check in first.
Voltaire, does your action still count as performed if someone targets you? So would you show up as having a night action tonight? Or are you just roleblocked, in which case Archetype should have received "nothing".
Based on the wording of my PM, my action still happens, but it returns no result. So I did target Archetype last night.
And with that, vote: Archetype.
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An 11 post day
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Well (this thread isn't locked yet, right?), I would have loved to hear from Archetype first, but I guess it'll have to wait until the next Day.
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If there even is one. xeiron made a good point, his claiming does nothing. Pretty sure we just won anyway.
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Final Day4 Vote Count
Archetype (3): EFHW, xeiron, Voltaire
EFHW (1): Archetype
Not Voting (1): faust
Archetype has been lynched. He was Gene Parmesan, the Sly Investigator, a Secondary Character.
Night4 starts now! I have had a request that the nights be shortened to 24 hours for the duration of the game. If all players will agree we can do that. So Night4 will last either 24 or 48 hours, but the night action deadline is still at 24 hours from now. Please PM me actions/check in with whether or not you would like to have night shortened.
Thread Locked!
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We will be having a shorter Night4. But it won't be 24 hours, instead it will be closer to 30 hours as I am starting up at work again and won't be opening the thread until I get home from work. Still please get night actions to me before 11:30 am forum time tomorrow.
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Day5 Start
Only a few members of the Bluth family were present at the Bluth Company Board Room. They were going to discuss the recent developments in discovering who had sabotaged their company and stolen their money. Most of the family was indisposed. The speaker phone rang and rang and rang. The family looked at it in annoyance. "What is that annoying sound!" shouted GOB.
Eventually the speaker phone beeped and the caller left a message. "Hi guys, this is Voltaire," said the caller. "I am not feeling very well, so I am going to have to miss today's meeting. I think I ate too many candy beans. Or took one too many forget-me-nows or had some really bad Hot-Ham water. I can't remember which. Hopefully I will be feeling better by tonights Gala Dinner. Oh and by the way. Maeby is dead. Have a good day!"
xeiron, has been killed in the night. He was Maeby, the Not-So-Innocent Child, a Good Bluth.
Vote Count 5.1
Not Voting (3): faust, Archetype, EFHW
With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch.
The deadline for Day5 will be 8 days long. It will be on Wed. March 5 at 7 pm forum time.
Day5 Starts Now! Thread Unlocked!
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Crap. I chose wrong.
I'm a Doctor....sort of. Each night I must target one player. If another player also targets them, they will be protected from one nightkill. If no one else targets them, they will be removed from the vote count the following day and won't be able to post.
Here's my thinking last night: I needed to use the power to clear my name. Otherwise, I would be the lynch the following day and lose the game for Town. The two most likely NK targets were, in my mind, Voltaire and Xeiron. I figured that Voltaire would be targeted since he's a Cop and scum would target him to negate him of his power. Xeiron I figured would be targeted by Faust since Xeiron seems to be Faust's highest Townread.
So, if it wasn't obvious already, I ended up targeting Voltaire. Targeting Xeiron wouldn't be worth it since faust would, most likely, take the kill. If I was wrong, Xeiron would be out of commission the following day which would suck since he's, in my mind, our best bet at solving this.
BUT! Xeiron died. Which is really, really surprising. But I think we may have caught faust.
Would faust Bodyguard Xeiron? Of course! So why didn't he?
Would faust Bodyguard Voltaire? Possibly, but then why is Voltaire removed from the Vote Count?
Would faust Bodyguard me? No! Would he make me Bodyguard him? No! That makes no sense. If I'm the remaining scum, why would he want to make me protect him against his own kill?
Would faust Bodyguard EFHW? No. He'd be tied as a Lover with her which makes 0 sense unless he thinks EFHW is scum.
So I'm left thinking Faust is scum. The other option is the reason Voltaire's Copping wasn't thwarted by scum is because he himself is scum. But now he's out of commission. If this is the case we'd need to No Lynch and lynch him tomorrow.
So EFHW is, by default, most likely Town. Which hurts my ego a bit.
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Hopefully it goes without saying, but don't prematurely vote. Consider me at a "Vote: Faust".
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Archetype I still think you are scum (though I will think through it again to make sure), but I do appreciate your going all out instead of giving up!
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N4 action claims:
Archetype targets Voltaire with "doctor". I'm going to assume most of his real power is the same as his claim.
scum kill xeiron
I had no action - my power was used up, as I had mentioned on two occasions.
Maybe: faust targeted me (probably with his kill deflection). He would consider himself more valuable town than me, given that he has a power. Also, if I die I get a new power, which would be helpful to town.
Interesting that he chose not to protect someone with one life. The pattern was definitely that scum kill someone with one life. He (probably) wouldn't target Voltaire in hopes of getting a cop result. He would have discussed with xeiron in their QT whether or not to protect xeiron, but we can't know what they said.
Archetype: what did you and xeiron say in your QT?
faust: why didn't you protect xeiron?
N3 by my theory both scum!Archetype and faust targeted Voltaire, which would explain why Voltaire wasn't out of commission Day 4.
And we don't need xeiron to figure this out. Other people can be logical too!
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QT is shut down since xeiron lost his power.
EFHW: I didn't get my new power until last night. So your out of commission failure for Day 4 theory would be false unless both my powers can sit people out of the game.
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QT is shut down since xeiron lost his power.
EFHW: I didn't get my new power until last night. So your out of commission failure for Day 4 theory would be false unless both my powers can sit people out of the game.
ok
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doesn't really change anything.
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So what was the other part of your previous power that you were offering to claim Day 4?
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I was 4-shot. So once one of the powers was used (Tracker, Voyeur, Follower, Watcher) it couldn't be used again.
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How did you think that was going to help you not get lynched?
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Is Voltaire out for the night as well, or just the day? And how does he figure into counts for win/loss determination?
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How did you think that was going to help you not get lynched?
Well since I'd have a 1-shot Watcher, it could have persuaded people not to lynch me. Probably not, but scum wouldn't have gained anything and I wouldn't have lost anything, so I thought: "why not?" But I got lynched before I could get online and the person I confided with, xeiron, got killed so I guess you'll just have to trust me. Or don't. Like you said, it doesn't make much of a difference.
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And how do you explain that you say you targeted Eevee N3 but he didn't shoot you/faust?
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Is Voltaire out for the night as well, or just the day? And how does he figure into counts for win/loss determination?
He's out for the day. I'll ask yuma about win/loss determination.
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And how do you explain that you say you targeted Eevee N3 but he didn't shoot you/faust?
No idea. I thought my initial theory was good, but Walrus being scum makes it less sound.
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Actually, now that I think about it, faust not being dead is weird too.
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Still upset that I chose wrong for protection. If I did end up saving xeiron, I'd still be still on you about being scum, EFHW, but at least you guys would think I'm less likely to be scum.
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Ok. So apparently the out of commissioned player is still considered alive for all intents and purposes. Which rocks if Voltaire is scum, but sucks if Faust is.
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Actually, now that I think about it, faust not being dead is weird too.
Why is that? And how did you decide I'm town?
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Actually, now that I think about it, faust not being dead is weird too.
Why is that? And how did you decide I'm town?
Well if faust did Bodyguard me, why isn't he dead? Leads me to believe that certainly NOT a Bodyguard, but then why aren't I dead? You're Town by POE.
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Well, this is weird. Don't know what happened exactly, but I did target xeiron. And given that Archetype is like the only one to explain this, I do think he's lying.
We should consider no-lynch here. There's basically 4 of us alive. This runs the danger of scum killing one of us and removing the other from the game...
I didn't get my night action confirmed tonight, which is weird because that happened every time before. I PM'ed yuma about this and hope to get clarification soon.
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Let me also go all out here, because there's one thing I've kept secret until now: The part of my role where I can make someone else bodyguard me is only 1-shot. I already used that shot on EFHW.
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What really rubs me the wrong way here though is that scum somehow got around my protection and Voltaire got temporarily tree-stumped. Both of that seems a little too much power for a single scum member.
So I don't think EFHW is lying about her role, so she can't be an explanation for this. But what if Voltaire is scum...? We might still be fine by lynch Archetype, next night EFHW, me and Voltaire are alive and both me and EFHW still have two lives. So Voltaire can't kill us, and we can lynch him the following Day.
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QT is shut down since xeiron lost his power.
Confirming this.
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How did you think that was going to help you not get lynched?
Well since I'd have a 1-shot Watcher, it could have persuaded people not to lynch me. Probably not, but scum wouldn't have gained anything and I wouldn't have lost anything, so I thought: "why not?" But I got lynched before I could get online and the person I confided with, xeiron, got killed so I guess you'll just have to trust me. Or don't. Like you said, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
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I'd like to wait until faust hears back from yuma, and then I'm ready to vote Archetype. One thing I also realized is we don't know what xeiron's new role was. Maybe it was negative utility.
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For example, maybe he was macho.
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How did you think that was going to help you not get lynched?
Well since I'd have a 1-shot Watcher, it could have persuaded people not to lynch me. Probably not, but scum wouldn't have gained anything and I wouldn't have lost anything, so I thought: "why not?" But I got lynched before I could get online and the person I confided with, xeiron, got killed so I guess you'll just have to trust me. Or don't. Like you said, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
So EFHW: Do you believe that I'm a Strongman Treestumper? Or whatever role Faust is trying to explain that I have? Because I think faust's role just got less credible - his Bodyguard power no longer mirrors ashersky's, which was the main reason why we (well, maybe me just I) believed him when he originally claimed.
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Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
And why would you do that?
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If Faust is scum and you lynch me, we will lose. Do you really think I made up both my original power and my current one?
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Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
And why would you do that?
Why would you have needed to know? I trusted xeiron, not you.
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Vote: Faust
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If Faust is scum and you lynch me, we will lose. Do you really think I made up both my original power and my current one?
I think your original power was probably the one you actually had.
As to your current one: Could you please claim flavor and your role name? EFHW as well.
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Vote: Faust
Why is EFHW town? If she's scum, you let her quickhammer! Unvote!
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Well, I guess she can't win by quickhammering here... still, don't just do something like that.
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Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
And why would you do that?
Why would you have needed to know? I trusted xeiron, not you.
I would have needed to know... let me see... ah, yes: For a situation exactly like this!
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Vote: Faust
Why is EFHW town? If she's scum, you let her quickhammer! Unvote!
No she won't. You have two lives. We go into N5 with 3 town vs 1 scum and EFHW is outed as scum.
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If Faust is scum and you lynch me, we will lose. Do you really think I made up both my original power and my current one?
I think your original power was probably the one you actually had.
As to your current one: Could you please claim flavor and your role name? EFHW as well.
My original power would be the crappiest scum power ever.
Lindsay: Compulsive Bad Cook
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If Faust is scum and you lynch me, we will lose. Do you really think I made up both my original power and my current one?
I think your original power was probably the one you actually had.
As to your current one: Could you please claim flavor and your role name? EFHW as well.
My original power would be the crappiest scum power ever.
Lindsay: Compulsive Bad Cook
Correct. And ashersky's role was the crappiest town power ever. So...
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Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
And why would you do that?
Why would you have needed to know? I trusted xeiron, not you.
I would have needed to know... let me see... ah, yes: For a situation exactly like this!
I strongly disagree that that would change your opinion. You even said yourself that my previous power was what I would have if I were scum! You seemed to believe that before even knowing that my power was 4-shot.
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If I knew you would be a 1-shot Watcher the following night, I would have argued for letting you stay alive.
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If Faust is scum and you lynch me, we will lose. Do you really think I made up both my original power and my current one?
I think your original power was probably the one you actually had.
As to your current one: Could you please claim flavor and your role name? EFHW as well.
My original power would be the crappiest scum power ever.
Lindsay: Compulsive Bad Cook
Correct. And ashersky's role was the crappiest town power ever. So...
So...there are two scum, not 7. That's why Town can have negative utilities. My power, in the hands of scum, would be weaker than a Role Cop. A Role Cop is already super weak in 9 player games.
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But that's why scum have a fancy second power. My power would be crap in scum's hands. EFHW's power would be crap in scum's hands. Voltaire's first power would also have been quite bad. So either one of us is lying about their first power or scum got some not-so-great power to begin with.
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If I knew you would be a 1-shot Watcher the following night, I would have argued for letting you stay alive.
And I totally would have said I was...if Voltaire didn't hammer me before I could get on.
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Also Archetype, what kind of role do you think I have?
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If I knew you would be a 1-shot Watcher the following night, I would have argued for letting you stay alive.
And I totally would have said I was...if Voltaire didn't hammer me before I could get on.
Yes, that was quite unfortunate.
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But that's why scum have a fancy second power. My power would be crap in scum's hands. EFHW's power would be crap in scum's hands. Voltaire's first power would also have been quite bad. So either one of us is lying about their first power or scum got some not-so-great power to begin with.
I don't think you are a Bodyguard.
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Also Archetype, what kind of role do you think I have?
I have no idea Faust. I can't even guess what a Partial Deathproof Remover is, so I'm not sure what to think.
Another thing that I just realized: Scum!Voltaire couldn't have blocked EFHW's power since he's Investigative. The only other option is if EFHW is scum.
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Have we discussed a No Lynch?
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If we No Lynch, Voltaire can investigate one of Faust/EFHW. He seems dead set on me being scum anyways.
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Vote Count 5.2
faust (1): Archetype
Not Voting (2): faust, EFHW
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That EFHW is scum is the thing that I am concerned about a little right now.
But: She saw me target her N1. So she would need some kind of power to tell her that. And she apparently had means to kill xeiron tonight. I guess JOAT or something like that is possible...
If EFHW is scum, No Lynch is horrible. She still has two lives, and by tomorrow, we're down to three town players. If we don't lynch her tonight, it will be nearly impossible to kill her.
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If we No Lynch, Voltaire can investigate one of Faust/EFHW. He seems dead set on me being scum anyways.
To me, EFHW seems much more confident to lynch you than I am.
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Just heard back from yuma, my night action was processed.
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I want to reread both of you, but don't think I can do so until tomorrow.
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Ugh. Ok. Now I'm starting to think EFHW is scum as a Roleblocker. If Faust is Town, EFHW can roleblock him. Of course this only works if EFHW is a Roleblocker or Roleblocker equivalent, which is much more unlikely than Faust lying about being a Bodyguard, but makes more senses hen combined with her scummy behavior surrounding Walrus's lynch.
Speaking of which, has anyone but me looked over that wagon?
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That EFHW is scum is the thing that I am concerned about a little right now.
But: She saw me target her N1. So she would need some kind of power to tell her that. And she apparently had means to kill xeiron tonight. I guess JOAT or something like that is possible...
If EFHW is scum, No Lynch is horrible. She still has two lives, and by tomorrow, we're down to three town players. If we don't lynch her tonight, it will be nearly impossible to kill her.
Well if you really are a Bodyguard, and me a Doctor, we'll have a decent shot at stopping the kill. Especially if I target you and you target me. But if she's a Roleblocker, that will totally fail.
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Actually, I'm even more certain Voltaire is Town. I mean, his hammer on me yesterday was weird, but our roles sort of interact well in a way.
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That EFHW is scum is the thing that I am concerned about a little right now.
But: She saw me target her N1. So she would need some kind of power to tell her that. And she apparently had means to kill xeiron tonight. I guess JOAT or something like that is possible...
If EFHW is scum, No Lynch is horrible. She still has two lives, and by tomorrow, we're down to three town players. If we don't lynch her tonight, it will be nearly impossible to kill her.
Well if you really are a Bodyguard, and me a Doctor, we'll have a decent shot at stopping the kill. Especially if I target you and you target me. But if she's a Roleblocker, that will totally fail.
How so? If I target you and you target me, scum can simply kill you, resulting in my death. Since no one else targets me, I am not protected and die.
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That EFHW is scum is the thing that I am concerned about a little right now.
But: She saw me target her N1. So she would need some kind of power to tell her that. And she apparently had means to kill xeiron tonight. I guess JOAT or something like that is possible...
If EFHW is scum, No Lynch is horrible. She still has two lives, and by tomorrow, we're down to three town players. If we don't lynch her tonight, it will be nearly impossible to kill her.
Well if you really are a Bodyguard, and me a Doctor, we'll have a decent shot at stopping the kill. Especially if I target you and you target me. But if she's a Roleblocker, that will totally fail.
How so? If I target you and you target me, scum can simply kill you, resulting in my death. Since no one else targets me, I am not protected and die.
Oh shoot. You're right. It'd only work if someone killed you. Well, actually maybe not. I'll have to ask whether someone killing you by targeting me would count as someone targeting you.
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I want to reread both of you, but don't think I can do so until tomorrow.
Do your due diligence, but to my ear Archetype is talking as though it is already determined that I am mafia, and that is a scum tactic.
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How did you think that was going to help you not get lynched?
Well since I'd have a 1-shot Watcher, it could have persuaded people not to lynch me. Probably not, but scum wouldn't have gained anything and I wouldn't have lost anything, so I thought: "why not?" But I got lynched before I could get online and the person I confided with, xeiron, got killed so I guess you'll just have to trust me. Or don't. Like you said, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Interesting. xeiron didn't tell me anything about this. Why do you think that is?
Because I told him not to.
So EFHW: Do you believe that I'm a Strongman Treestumper? Or whatever role Faust is trying to explain that I have? Because I think faust's role just got less credible - his Bodyguard power no longer mirrors ashersky's, which was the main reason why we (well, maybe me just I) believed him when he originally claimed.
Good idea - Strongman Treestumper would fit the bill. But I actually think it is just as likely that xeiron was macho. faust's role not mirroring ashersky's doesn't really seem relevant to me. I'm sure yuma would make balance a higher priority than symmetry.
faust's towniness is reinforced for me. If he were scum and you town, he could very credibly have voted you and let me hammer, given the strong case against you. We would both be wrong, and equally suspicious for it.
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My flavor is Oscar, a Commuting Lover. Apparently I smoke a lot of marijuana.
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Fine, I'm done. The main thing I guess is how Arch claimed he saw Walrus targeting Voltaire, and Voltaire doesn't make any sense as a target for scum!Walrus. That, and Arch's defense of Walrus D3, and the fact that no death resulted from Arch targeting Eevee, is just too much to overlook. Still confused about xeiron dying, but yes, I guess it could be his role.
Vote: Archetype
I'm hoping for the best.
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Well, I'll vote: EFHW. I think the fact that you actually did a reread makes you more likely to be Town. If I get lynched and the games not over, it's most likely because Voltaire is scum. I say most likely because your second power could change the game.
I had a whole plan written out that I then deleted. Town should know the right move at this point, so me telling scum it may not be the best.
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vote: Archetype
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Note : This is directly copy/pasted from yuma in the speccy because he can't access the forums at work.
Final Day5 Vote Count
Archetype (2): faust, EFHW
EFHW (1): Archetype
Voltaire came running into the
Bluth Company conference room. Sorry, I am late! What did I miss!
Archetype has been lynched. He was Lindsay, the Compulsive Bad Cook, a Good Bluth.
Night5 will be approximately 24 hours long with the night action deadline and night check-in 24 hours from now.
Night5 Starts Now! Thread Locked!
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Thread Locked!
(http://cdn.instructables.com/FQJ/J2H6/GKS0SR7O/FQJJ2H6GKS0SR7O.MEDIUM.jpg)
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Day6 Start
At the Annual Bluth Gala there was a surprise waiting for the Bluth Family. A magic trick! The famous Tony Wonder would be performing a trick he called "The Man Inside of Me."
Unfortunately the trick did not go off very well as someone had sabotaged his trick. As a result, faust died during the night. He was Tony Wonder, the Magic Bodyguard, a Secondary Character.
Vote Count 6.1
Not Voting (3): Voltaire, faust, EFHW
With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch
Day6 will last 8 days and will end on March8 at 8 pm forum time.
Thread Unlocked!
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Voltaire, I'm so sad! Ashersky I probably will doubt you again, but were right!
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Voltaire, I'm so sad! Ashersky I probably will doubt you again, but were right!
What are you talking about?
So from watching D5 and faust dying last night, there's no way it's not EFHW. The only possible other way would be if he shot himself, and I just can't see him doing that since EFHW has two lives, and scum!faust would need to go for the win, not weird night shenanigans, tonight.
Not voting simply out of an abundance of caution. :P
Actually...shit. EFHW has two lives, we each have one. Can we even win at this point?
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I have no result, btw.
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faust it is Not me. Do not vote for me, that will be game over. If I were scum I would have killed Voltaire last night for the win, as you would have as well. It's Voltaire, and I'm just waiting for you to post before voting.
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Cute. EFHW tried to kill me, faust guarded me. This is actually really straightforward except for the fact that EFHW has two lives left.
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Please tell me you did not bodyguard him last night! That is his only hope. He'll say I shot him and it rebounded to you, but that is not what happened!
You did though, didn't you. I can see why, but I am worried that now you think I am scum. Unless I'm having some sort of identity crisis, I am TOWN. I was wrong about Archetype, but as you said yourself there was a very compelling case against him, and very little about us.
If you lynch me, our only chance will be if I get some kind of kickass power. We can't count on that.
Ok, I'll stop panicking now and hope you log on soon so we can discuss this.
PPE see there's Voltaire saying that exact thing.
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Cute. EFHW tried to kill me, faust guarded me. This is actually really straightforward except for the fact that EFHW has two lives left.
Why do you say that's the only possibility? If you were being honest you would acknowledge that it is also possible that you shot fFust yourself.
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Cute. EFHW tried to kill me, faust guarded me. This is actually really straightforward except for the fact that EFHW has two lives left.
Why do you say that's the only possibility? If you were being honest you would acknowledge that it is also possible that you shot fFust yourself.
Well, yeah, obviously faust has to chose between our words.
Also, this "yeah but what if you were SCUM!" is very, very silly. Yes, if I were scum I could have shot faust. That is possible from his point of view.
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The only standard roles I can think of that I could get that could get us thru the night would be roleblocker and jailkeeper. Doctor if I heal you and you protect me, but then you have have decided I'm town. But even if I stop him overnight, we're still back in this situation the next day with no new info except my first flip. I guess surviving the night would prove I was town since if scum I would have shot one of you. But if I get some investigative role or something else not sufficiently protective then we are toast.
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The only reason I can think of that the game isn't over is EFHW"s second role, or your current role faust, must be able to stop a kill. (that would mean EFHW's second is negative utility for scum of course). Only reason the game isn't a scum victory right now.
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So actually, if I am scum and you lynch me, then you lose anyway. The only chance to win that I can see at this moment is to lynch Voltaire. And, by happy coincidence, that will work great! I wish I had thought of this a few posts ago, would have saved you some reading and me a lot of phone typing.
PPE. Interesting theory. I guess if I were scum yuma could just endgame it right now. Unless, like you say, scum!me would be unable to kill overnight. Academic though, since there is no scum!me in this game.
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You also reminded me that his bodyguard power is gone, so Doctor would not help, unless he is one too.
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You also reminded me that his bodyguard power is gone, so Doctor would not help, unless he is one too.
His forced bodyguard is gone. That's what was one-shot. Unless he withheld more.
I'm gonna be V/LA tomorrow until late tonight. I'll check back in then to see if faust has posted and if we're winning or losing.
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You also reminded me that his bodyguard power is gone, so Doctor would not help, unless he is one too.
His forced bodyguard is gone. That's what was one-shot. Unless he withheld more.
I'm gonna be V/LA tomorrow until late tonight. I'll check back in then to see if faust has posted and if we're winning or losing.
The whole thing is gone. He has a new power now. I hope it's Daycop (:
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Oh duh.
OK then, yeah, whatever his current power is must be able to stop a kill, unless you're going to respawn with some sort of power that with only two townies left will force your kill not to go through. Which I find much less likely.
Y'know, why not? This is obvious. vote: EFHW.
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Cute. EFHW tried to kill me, faust guarded me. This is actually really straightforward except for the fact that EFHW has two lives left.
Well, that would be a neat theory, right? Except I guarded EFHW!
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Just for the record, here's my thought process for guarding EFHW:
Possilility 1: Voltaire is scum
In this situation, it would be the better move for sure. And Voltaire would either need to give a result or say he couldn't, which would catch him in a lie like now.
Possibility 2: EFHW is scum
Well, EFHW would obviously shoot Voltaire tonight. So what to do? We can't kill EFHW without me getting a neat second power, really. But EFHW has this lovers thing going. So I target her in the night, she kills Voltaire, next Day, we are both alive and lovers. We no-lynch, and in the night, she has the option of killing us both, giving us our second roles. If she does, I have 1 Day and 1 night to use my power against her (there already were some Day-powers, so this might have been important). If she doesn't, I just target her and we remain lovers.
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Also, I'll tell you that my second role kinda sucks. Which is okay I guess, my first role was really nifty. But there's no way to stop scum!EFHW from winning here.
So vote: Voltaire, I seem to have been right at the beginning.
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I will add that Voltaire/Walrus (if indeed the scum team) played quite well this game. After Walrus' flip, I was quite sure that Voltaire couldn't be his partner. The way Walrus reacted to the challenging was good, and then his second claim mirrored Voltaire's, so it really made me think Voltaire is not his partner.
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Then there must be redirecting or busdriving going on somewhere. faust I don't know what I can do to convince you but I'm town.
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Then there must be redirecting or busdriving going on somewhere. faust I don't know what I can do to convince you but I'm town.
You can do nothing to convince me. If you are town, this game is already lost.
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Vote Count 6.2
EFHW (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (1): faust
Not Voting (1): EFHW
With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch.
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Yay faust! The lovers thing is used up and I'd probably still win if we were lovers, but NVM that. vote: Voltaire.
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:( congrats EFHW
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:( congrats EFHW
You played well.
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Per yuma, it is now twilight. The dead may not post.
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Final Day6 Vote Count
EFHW (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (1): faust, EFHW
Voltaire has been lynched. He was Michael Bluth, the CEO of All Trades, a Bad Bluth.
Town Wins! The Bluth Family money is now safe. GOB, the Black-Balled Magician, a Good Bluth and Oscar Bluth, the Commuting Lover, a Secondary Character will share the responsibility of CEO duties of the newly formed Bluth Company
Thread Unlocked for everyone!
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Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Michael, a Bad Bluth.
Your role is a CEO of All Trades. It took you a long time to make your way up to the top. But your work and patience paid off. You have learned a lot as the CEO of the Bluth Company, lots of tricks of the trade to deal with shady characters, sometimes you needed to use more than one at a time. Each night you may select three of the following roles, but only two will be used chosen at random. If a role targets a player you may select who you would target if it is selected. You will be notified at the end of night of which role you used, but necessarily if it was successful. Your role is made up of the roles Ninja, Strongman, Role Cop, Roleblock, Bulletproof, Bus Driver and Godfather. You may only select one power to potentially use on consecutive nights. The other two must be different from the night before. However, if you select a power two nights in a row it will be exhausted and you will no longer be able to select from it.
Ninja – You will not be seen by investigative roles while performing night actions.
Strongman – Your night actions cannot be blocked by protective or blocking roles.
Role Cop – You will be told the role name and a very brief summary of what it does for the player you target that night.
Bus Driver – Target two players, any roles that would target one will now target the other instead.
Godfather – You will be seen as innocent to all investigative roles except for rolecops and tracker variants.
Bulletproof - Will protect you from one kill during the night.
Roleblocker - The player you target will be prevented from using their role.
You are currently undercover as Barry Zuckercorn, a Secondary Character. You will maintain this cover in regard to any investigation, flip and power usage until the day or night phase following your death. After this you will be respawned as the Bad Bluth character above. Your undercover win condition is to eliminate all threats to the Bluth Family.
Your role is: Attorney Gladiator. Slimy, creepy and just plain weird are how any of your clients would describe you, but you are efficient... at getting your or your client in hot water, that is. On any given day you may challenge any other player to an in game lawsuit where you will be tried by a jury of your peers by typing the thread Challenge: player in bold. At that point the player lynched that day must either be you or him. The winner of the lawsuit (the player who does not get lynched) will receive a prize. If you win, you will gain your opponents role power until you die. If you lose, your opponent will become a Gladiator in addition to the power they already have.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are George Michael, a Mafia Aligned Bad Bluth.
Your role: Partial Deathproof Remover. You are just such a nice guy that when people that anyone you get close to will melt a little bit inside and take down some of their defenses. It is up to you whether or not to use that advantage for good or for evil. As a result they will lose part of their deathproof ability that all players have been given. Specifically they will lose deathproof in regard to lynches. This means that if a person you target with your role will not regenerate after being lynched, but if they are NKed they will still regenerate like normal. You will also learn the role of the Good Bluth character of the player you targeted if they are successfully lynched later in the game.
You are currently undercover as Steve Holt, a Secondary Character. You will maintain this cover in regard to any investigation, flip and power usage until the day or night phase following your death. After this you will be respawned as the Bad Bluth character above. Your undercover win condition is to eliminate all threats to the Bluth Family.
Your role is Dumb, Good Jock. STEVE HOLT! You are an OK guy. You are dumb, but you are an OK guy. But you also have some secrets that no one else knows about. You are also mildly decent at a bunch of different things, but get confused really easily when you are doing them. Once each night you may target a player. This player will either be Doctored, Jailed or Roleblocked. But you don’t know which, nor will you told which you used during the night.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Oscar, a Secondary Character.
Your role is: Commuting Lover. There isn't anything more important to you than your stash of weed. Family is important, especially your twin brother and your son, but even they can't compare with the rapturous feeling you get when you are high. On any two nights you may commute to a heavenly high by smoking your pot. If you do and if anyone comes looking for you to target during the night they won’t be able to find you. Instead they will find your stash and decide to have a smoke as well. As a result they will commute up to a heavenly high with you (but still be available to target). However, because of your night of high-jinx you will develop a pot induced relationship with this player and you will become temporary lovers. If either of you or your new lover dies during the next day or night you will both die. Only you will both be notified that you became lovers and with whom during the night. If more than one player targets you while you are commuting the player with the role that is highest up the natural resolution chain will commute with you, the other will have no effect.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Lucille Austero, a Secondary Character.
Your role is a Vertigo Re-director. You have had a grudge against the Bluths for quite a while. It isn't to say that they don't deserve it as they have made your life pretty miserable for a while and have aggravated your vertigo which makes your decisions a little wobbly. Each night you may target another player and re-direct their role, but because you suffer from vertigo this process ends up being a bit screwy. You are only able to re-direct their power toward yourself or back at the player you initially targeted. Because you are an aspiring politician, you can’t get your hands dirty, so your re-direct power does not affect night kills in any way and they will be processed as they normally would.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Tony Wonder, a Secondary Character.
Your role is: Magic Bodyguarder. You are the best magician in town. But you also lead a secret double life that no one knows about. Each night your role allows you to expose yourself to protect someone else from a potential NK by bodyguarding them with your magic. If that player is targeted for a night kill, you will die instead. Or, once during the game you may use your abilities to magically coerce someone to bodyguard you instead, causing them to die instead of you if you are targeted for a night kill. If no one targets you for a night kill nothing will happen. The player you target will not be notified in either case.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Ann Veal, a Secondary Character.
Your role is: Rolecopping Neighborizor. You have a tendency to just blend in with your surroundings: eggs, plants, little guys, but it doesn't faze you as you just put your trust in Jesus. You are a religious nut and want to invite everyone to your bible study group. Each night you may target a player. You will befriend them and take them to a bible study quicktopic the moderator will create. There you will interrogate them about their lives and sins and will learn something about their role (but not their alignment). At most two sentences of their role description, but not the actual role description will be posted by the mod as the first post of the thread. (The player neighborized will be able to decide how much to tell you about, but will not know it is you they are communicating with until after accessing the QT). Both of you will be able to communicate during that night and any successive nights that you are both still alive. The information posted will only pertain to roles but will be guaranteed to be accurate but may be redacted.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Annyong, a Secondary Character.
Your role is: 2-shot Temporary Vanillaiser. You have come to America to seek revenge on the Bluths family for destroying your father and his Banana Stand. Undercover you will destroy as much of the Bluth's power as possible. You come with a power to weaken them if you so choose. Twice at night you may target any player (including yourself). For the remainder of that night, this player will become Vanilla regardless of their alignment. It will only last for one night and for all night action purposes at night that player will be Vanilla. This will effectively block them from using their role.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Carl Weathers, a Secondary Character.
Your role is: 2-shot Day Rolestealing Vigilante. You are the weirdest acting coach of all time, but the true secret to your success is taking down your fellow actors, stealing their storylines and using it for yourself like you did with the Bluths. That and being extremely cheap when it comes to money. Your role is comprised of a 2-shot Day Vig/Rolestealing power. On any two separate days you may target a player by typing in bold DayVig: player. This player will die and you may inherit their role until you die. You will not be told what the role is before you have to decide if you want it. If you choose to inherit you will forfeit your second dayvig power. If you do not choose to inherit that role your second kill will result in you inheriting the second player's role until you die.
Welcome to Arrested Development Mafia, X. You are Gene Parmesan, a Secondary Character. Your win condition is to eliminate all threats to the Bluth Family.
Your role is: Sly Investigator. You are pretty sneaky, always capable of getting information when it is most needed to those on your side. Unfortunately you are also a bumbling fool. As a result your results aren’t always what you originally intended. You are a 4-shot Watcher, Tracker, Follower and Voyeur. Each night you may select a player to target. You will use one of the four roles on the player, but you won’t know which one until at the end of night when you receive a result. However each role can only be used once.
Watching: target a player and see if anyone targets them during the night.
Tracking: target a player and see who that player targets during the night.
Follower: target a player and see what type of action they took.
Voyeur: target a player and see what type of action targeted them.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as Lucille, a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: Aid Required Vigilante. You have always been pathetic. Being upper class has left you sad, lonely and alcoholic. There isn't much of anything you can do on your own. Each night you may select a target to kill during the night. However, because you are pathetic and always need the help of one of your children, or your maid or a neighbor to solve your problems, you will only be successful if another player targets your night kill the same night. If the other action is protective, it will overpower it. If you are the only player to target your kill, your target will live through the night.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as Tobias, a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: 2-shot Analrapist. Your role sounds a lot worse than it is. Your acting career has flopped so it is time to go back to the career you were trained in. As an analrapist you are a 2-shot Psychologist/Detective. Once at night you may target an Arrested Development flavor name as a Psychologist and once as a Detective--on separate nights. As a Psychologist you will learn if that player currently has the ability to kill anyone during the night. However, if they have already killed they will lie to you. As a Detective you will learn if that player has already killed someone in the game. You may not target the same player twice. Targeting a flavor that does not exist will result in you receiving a negative result.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as Buster, a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: Monster. You are a monster. Your hook or claw would make any small child run away in fear. Despite this neighbors continue to ask you to help watch their small children, but really you have the mind of a child yourself. Your role is comprised of a compulsive Paranoid-Hook Owning Babysitter. Each night you must choose a player to babysit that night. Any kills targeting them will fail. However, if you are killed your babysat player will die as well. If anyone other than a killing role targets your target you will kill them during the night using your PHO.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as Maeby, a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: Not So Innocent Child. You are innocent on the inside, but no one will believe you because on the outside you just aren’t very innocent. Even if some higher power with omnipotence, such as Ron Howard the moderator, were to confirm you as innocent people would have a hard time believing it. In fact they would probably only believe it if you died and they saw you go straight to heaven. At any time during any day—or night--you may claim your role as an innocent child. If you do, you will become mod-confirmed as an innocent child and aligned as town. However, claiming comes with a price. If you claim, you will be mod-killed at the start of the next day or night (fi you decided to claim during the night). Rules clarification: You may flavor claim w/o consequences. You may allude to your power, but this is a fine line. Please PM before posting something to determine whether or not allusions or hints to your powers cross the line.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as Lindsay, a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: Compulsive Bad Cook. You are a pretty terrible mother, even when you try your best. You have read books like Eat, Love, Pray to try and become a better person, but perhaps it was because you only read the Eat & Love parts and skipped the Pray part. As a result everything you try to do as a mother might not succeed and might even do significant damage. Each night you must target another player. This will protect someone from a night kill. However, if you are the only player to target another player that night they will be poisoned by your bad cooking and will be out of commission for the day (they won’t be dead, but won’t be able to post, vote, be voted or be considered for vote count purposes) but will come back to normal at the beginning of twilight. You may not target yourself.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawned as G.O.B., a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: Black-Balled Magician. After some bad behavior you have been punished by the Magician's Alliance and are left all alone. It sure is lonely without an organization to back you up when the going gets rough. You are a solitary mason, but do not yet know who your magician counterpart is (this has been determined randomly pre-game). Each night you may target a player of your choice. If you target that player you will be told that their are your partner and be let back into the alliance. However, because of your bad behavior no one wants to be with you so you will not be given a quicktopic nor will your counter part be told of your affiliation. Rather you will just be told that your counterpart is town. If your counterpart dies before they are investigated by you, you will not be notified.
Welcome back to Arrested Development Mafia. You have been respawnded as George Sr., a Good Bluth.
Your new role is: 2-shot Warden.You spent a lot of time in prison for your crimes as CEO of the Bluth Company. You made quite a few connections while you were there and earned a few favors. Each night you may select two players to put in jail together. These players will only be able to target you and each other and won’t be targetable except by you and each other. However, you will still be able to be targeted by these players and by anyone else. These players will not be notified that they were put in jail together. You may not jail yourself.
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Day1:
Voltaire Gladiators ashersky
Night1:
EFHW commutes
faust forces EFHW to bodyguard himself, becomes lovers with EFHW for next day/night
Eevee doesn't use Vanillaizer
ashersky vigs Voltaire (semi-strongman in effect because Arch/Walrus targeted Voltaire)
xeiron neighborizes/rolecops faust
Walrus kills ashersky
Voltaire re-directs no one
Archetype investigates Voltaire (Voyeur: investigative, killing and protecting)
Walrus targets Voltaire with Dumb Jock - Doc chosen
Day2:
joth dayvigs: eevee
Night2:
EFHW commutes
xeiron neighborizes/rolecops Arch
Archetype investigates Eevee (Tracks: result of joth)
Voltaire ninja/strongman kills Eevee, killing joth
Eevee babysits joth, killing Walrus
Walrus dumb jocks joth (roleblocks)
joth targets GOB Bluth (roleblocked - no result)
faust bodyguards archetype
Night3:
Faust bodyguards Voltaire
Voltaire kills xeiron
Voltaire is bulletproof
Voltaire bus drives Archetype and Voltaire
Archetype investigates Voltaire (but sees himself... Follower: investigative)
xeiron neighborizes/rolecops xeiron
Night4:
Voltaire Ninja kills xeiron
Voltaire roleblocks faust
faust bodyguards xeiron (blocked by Voltaire)
Archetype poisons Voltaire
Night5:
Voltaire kills faust
Voltaire is godfathered
faust bodyguards EFHW
Voltaire bus drives Voltaire and EFHW
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People. Listen to me when I say things about Voltaire!
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QTs
speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/5EWSfYtV4qsT
mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/cry6N6t4X8v
neibghors:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/VaPbYrQsL8t
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Z6pz5YqjGLnuq
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/5MfSSkZuAAUB
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My thoughts on the game:
I came into this setup from the flavor first. Maybe this isn't an optimal way to approach the design process. But mostly I knew I wanted to design a 9 player game because there were 9 people in the Bluth family.
My second approach was coming into the game I wanted to give mafia pre-designed, and effective, fake claims for them to use. So have mafia have both a town PR and a mafia PR.
Next I mulled around with a whole bunch of ideas on how to do this and eventually had mafia having secondary characters that they could use as PRs (Lupe the Maid, Barry Zuckerkorn, etc...) but couldn't quite come up with anything that I liked. Around the same time I thought about how it is a bummer to be lynched early in a game, especially a RMM game and how that isn't fun. I liked how eHal resolved this in the first RMM game, but wanted to try for something different... and then the ideas merged and everyone became a secondary character and a real character. This also allowed for more of my PR ideas to be incorporated.
Overall I was pleased with the game. It ended up being pretty close although Voltaire was walking a fine line the whole time after Walrus was lynched. My first change would be to make the mafia a 3-man team, with one player a Traitor ala Chocolate Factory Mafia. Obviously I would have lessened their powers and amped up the powers of town a bit to compensate. But as I think Voltaire pointed out having basically 4 players up against 14 town requires a bunch of deaths of town for mafia to win. I think if neither mafia had ever died and if they utilized their kills perfectly it would require 10 deaths. Compare that to a 9 player game with 2 mafia. They just need 5 deaths. Or a 13 player game with 3 mafia. They need 6. Adding a third mafia would have allowed mafia to only need 6 deaths, which I think would have been more doable.
Things I would have changed:
- not allowing mafia to night kill the player that had just been lynched the day before. I probably also would not have allowed that player to use their PR that night. But once I decided the latter I felt I needed to decide the former as well. My original intent was for that, but it was more stylistic and I never specified in the rules if it was allowed or not. In the end it was the correct choice for the setup that had been created, but I was sad about it as I wanted ashersky to come ragging back into the thread day2...
- changed a few roles. Eevee's was very swingy. EFHW's I would have eliminated the "informed who targeted you" part.
- I really liked Arch's role, joth's role and the gladiator role (the rolestealing parts especially, although those were never used)
- I felt mafia didn't really deserve to lose this game. Two kills came from vig/PGO stuff that they had covered, but couldn't block due to how the PRs interacted. Walrus's lynch came from info that was misinterpreted. Archetype and Walrus actually had it 100% correct how things played out with the PGO vs PHO part. And Voltaire was basically lynched as a PoE lynch for the end game.
- Mafia could have done somethings better... Volt's gladiator, killing ashersky again I think, both fake claims weren't ideal... (should have discussed that during the night, but didn't anticipate dying during the night)
- Anyways, I hope everyone had fun. Any feedback would be appreciated! Thanks for playing guys (and gal!)
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MVP?
Arch, I think?
I'm glad I shot Voltaire!
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Great game everyone! I had lots of fun scumming it up, hope I fooled somebody at least :) It ended up being really close I think!
Thanks yuma for modding, I really enjoyed the setup
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People. Listen to me when I say things about Voltaire!
Heh. You obviously had me. As you'll see from the mafia thread, that decision was more of a "This is RMM, let's do some fireworks!" than a deep strategic decision.
Very cool setup, yuma. Walrus, you were a great scumbuddy. I probably shouldn't have bussed you at all. That was our downfall, I think. That, and the fact that I should have no-killed last night. I decided to bank on faust protecting me and, oh well.
I will say, busdriving Archetype so he saw himself investigating me to back up my fakeclaim is definitely my proudest (and least consequential) moment in mafia history.
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Actually, I thought my cop claim was great. It didn't seem to get me as suspected as it should have, and even seemed to buy me towncred from some players.
I think our downfall was (small) me not no-killing last night (big) me and Walrus not really having a plan for what to do once one of us goes down.
Honestly, I viewed D5 and D6 as bonuses that I was happy to live to, so I didn't mind the quick POE-style D6 one bit. Town deserved the win!
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Great game Yuma, lots of original twists.
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I think Walrus and Voltaire are your ICs, and you need to lynch 2/4 of Arch, xeiron, faust, and EFHW.
Ash, was this speccy comment serious, or had you changed your mind? Just curious since you totally 100% caught me D1.
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I think Walrus and Voltaire are your ICs, and you need to lynch 2/4 of Arch, xeiron, faust, and EFHW.
Ash, was this speccy comment serious, or had you changed your mind? Just curious since you totally 100% caught me D1.
Never mind, I see it was just you sorting through the two-lives thing.
I was hoping I could ride out confusion that I'd flipped town for longer D2 but it didn't work out that way. >:( ::)
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I think Walrus and Voltaire are your ICs, and you need to lynch 2/4 of Arch, xeiron, faust, and EFHW.
Ash, was this speccy comment serious, or had you changed your mind? Just curious since you totally 100% caught me D1.
I was serious, based on my own belief that the setup would not have double-lived scum. I figured scum would die on the first try.
Clearly my speculation on yuma's setup was wrong. My instincts were not. :)
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Clearly my speculation on yuma's setup was wrong. My instincts were not. :)
You should feel great, ash. I was truly terrified of you after D1 and you completely earned your D1 lynch/N1 nightkill record.
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MVP?
Arch, I think?
I am open to suggestions. My instinct says to give it to faust for last night's actions which ultimately sealed the fate of Voltaire, although it was based off the false premise of EFHW becoming lovers with him (the two-shot was used up!).
Or Voltaire, surviving as long as he did and using night actions pretty effectively throughout were pretty good.
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Voltaire played a superior scum game. Ash had the team pegged D1.
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People. Listen to me when I say things about Voltaire!
Heh. You obviously had me. As you'll see from the mafia thread, that decision was more of a "This is RMM, let's do some fireworks!" than a deep strategic decision.
Very cool setup, yuma. Walrus, you were a great scumbuddy. I probably shouldn't have bussed you at all. That was our downfall, I think. That, and the fact that I should have no-killed last night. I decided to bank on faust protecting me and, oh well.
I will say, busdriving Archetype so he saw himself investigating me to back up my fakeclaim is definitely my proudest (and least consequential) moment in mafia history.
My suggestion would have been a no-kill last night. But your plan was pretty good too and I was pleased to see you do as well as you did.
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A no-kill I think still would have resulted in a Voltaire lynch... maybe not as likely. At the least I think it would have resulted in a no-lynch to force the issue.
What I think would have worked is:
1. bus driving faust and EFHW and targeting faust with the NK... of course Voltaire wouldn't have known this would be the correct move, but still...
Because that would have resulted in:
Faust targeting himself instead of EFHW
EFHW being NK instead of faust
Everyone ends up confused and I think EFHW is more likely to vote for faust in that scenario than to vote for voltaire. Maybe she still would have, but it would have been more of a toss-up I think.
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MVP?
Arch, I think?
haha, most definitely not. I think the only thing I was right about was the PHO Babysitter and your Aid-Reguiring Vigilante. I totally backed up WalrusMcFishSr and falsely confirmed Voltaire as the Cop when he made me target myself (Which made me laugh by the way. After seeing all the PMs, but before reading the Mafia QT, I thought you must of Role Copped that night, but this is way funnier). Then I shot Town in the foot by not targeting xeiron (Sorry!) with my Doctor (but then again, faust kinda did too by not protecting him). So naw. Maybe I'll get MVP next game.
Awesome game yuma! Really impressed with the roles, especially mine and the role thieves. The 1-shot Deathproof and new role mechanic was really novel and implemented pretty well I think. I agree with you that including a Traitor or Survivor would've been a better inclusion over the dearth of Killing roles as it keeps all those nifty roles in play longer and reduces swing. Overall, I had a blast. Flavor was really cool too even though I didn't know, like, half of the secondary characters. I need to watch past the first season!
Thanks again yuma!
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Oh yay, finally I'm going to LyLo and win :) (as town)
It was a great game and even though I was unsure at first if the respawning thing could work, I think it did work out pretty nicely.
In the end, I thought EFHW's commuting was two-shot, but not the lovers part... oh well. I probably would have lynched Voltaire no matter what, because there's no way I could have won against EFHW.
As for MVP, I'd say both Voltaire and xeiron did a pretty good job here.