Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Wolphmaniac on January 04, 2014, 10:49:55 am
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You play a two-player game with EVERY kingdom card except Black Market available. All other usual rules apply: 10 each of all actions and treasures, 8 each of VP cards, game ends when either all Colonies, Provinces, or three other piles are depleted.
What is your strategy?
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Open Scout/Scout of course. They're so good here with all of those kingdom Victory cards.
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This sort of topic was already discussed at some point, in case you're interested about where to start with restrictions:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7654.0
I'd be looking for some sort of Ambassador opening, I think.
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Not only 1 card available, all 10? Then, probably Chapel down, building a big Goons turn (or KC-bridge?) and possibly Quarry for a quick Goons?
also, beware of the pin...
EDIT: Yes, Ambassador over Chapel, of course
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Not only 1 card available, all 10? Then, probably Chapel down, building a big Goons turn (or KC-bridge?) and possibly Quarry for a quick Goons?
also, beware of the pin...
EDIT: Yes, Ambassador over Chapel, of course
Yeah, I'd also be looking for a Goons deck. I'm wondering whether I want Labs, Stables, or Minions though. Minions work well with all the cheap disappearing actions you can get(Fishing village, Hamlet, Lighthouse, etc...). Then again, an Ironworks/Silk Road rush would be nuts. Maybe heavy Bishop can do something about that? Another opening to consider is Chapel/Ironworks, but I'm not sure what the optimal strategy is with that opening.
You know what becomes a power card in this setup? Develop. Okay, so it's forced to get Poor Houses if you trash $0 costs or $2 costs, but it's beastly at the higher price points. Band of Misfits is nuts too.
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It seems like a degenerate ironworks silk road game, with great halls and islands around
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It seems like a degenerate ironworks silk road game, with great halls and islands around
with gardens, begger, and storeroom all coming up huge
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I dunno. the green rush player needs to empty three pile by themselves, where the goons player just needs to get a million VP tokens
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I don't think any strategy which doesn't trash can be optimal. Chapel/Hermit into Market Square/Highway is going to crush any alt-VP rush. I'm not sure you can get up to multi-Goons in time, either.
Open Chapel/Hermit. Trash down while gaining Market Squares, then trash the Chapel with the Hermit, discarding three Market Squares.
First turn after trashing: spend three Golds and the Baker token on two Highways.
Second: spend $9 on three Highways
Third: buy three more Highways and three Bridges, and a Mint to trash the Golds.
Fourth: buy all 8 Colonies, plus as many Provinces as you can get your grubby hands on.
Hermit can gain Market Squares every turn, and then Worker's Villages, to play the Bridges. Never gain the Madman - if necessary, buy a Ruins or a Curse (which can be trashed the next turn by Hermit). If the opponent doesn't deny more than two Highways, you should be able to end the game on turn 9 or so with ~100 VP.
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hertz_doughnut played this game many times, and claims to be able to win the game in 7 turns, even with a bunch of power cards banned.
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Well, I guess this is where we see if Rebuild is as powerful as she seems.
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Well, I guess this is where we see if Rebuild is as powerful as she seems.
You guess wrong.
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I don't think any strategy which doesn't trash can be optimal. Chapel/Hermit into Market Square/Highway is going to crush any alt-VP rush. I'm not sure you can get up to multi-Goons in time, either.
Open Chapel/Hermit. Trash down while gaining Market Squares, then trash the Chapel with the Hermit, discarding three Market Squares.
First turn after trashing: spend three Golds and the Baker token on two Highways.
Second: spend $9 on three Highways
Third: buy three more Highways and three Bridges, and a Mint to trash the Golds.
Fourth: buy all 8 Colonies, plus as many Provinces as you can get your grubby hands on.
Hermit can gain Market Squares every turn, and then Worker's Villages, to play the Bridges. Never gain the Madman - if necessary, buy a Ruins or a Curse (which can be trashed the next turn by Hermit). If the opponent doesn't deny more than two Highways, you should be able to end the game on turn 9 or so with ~100 VP.
You're being way too optimistic about how your Chapel and Hermit align in practice. Chapel/Market Square has to be the better opening both in general and for this particular plan (obviously don't start gaining Golds until you're fully trashed down).
But I don't think you want to bother with Chapel at all when you can just open Fishing Village/Wharf, get a Quarry (maybe two) and target the KCs, Wharves and Bridges.
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seriously, this kingdom lets you do the kind of stuff CC does, because it includes all those cards. Perfect shuffle luck doesn't matter that much. cards like BoM, develop, fortress, procession, watchtower, rats, and upgrade will be faster than anything else. Might not empty the supply, but 3-piling will be really easy.
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I would open Chapel/Watchtower or maybe Ambassador/Watchtower, then topdeck strong attacks by buying Squires and trashing them immediately. This makes me think that you probably want to play Lighthouse every turn. The pin is also there, but even a single Militia and Masq after every turn could be devastating against a too trim deck.
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Fairgrounds should be nuts, but probably too slow?
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I always figured that some sort of rush involving stonemason and cost reduction would be best here.
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If a player gets lucky, in this Kingdom he can end the game on turn 4. Maybe even turn 3?
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Fortress
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If a player gets lucky, in this Kingdom he can end the game on turn 4. Maybe even turn 3?
Someone figured out how to end the game on turn three with a normal kingdom...
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yeah, with all the cards in the kingdom it's probably easier to empty the supply.
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yeah, with all the cards in the kingdom it's probably easier to empty the supply.
But then all the cards would be there needing to be gotten...
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yeah, with all the cards in the kingdom it's probably easier to empty the supply.
But then all the cards would be there needing to be gotten...
yeah, that's why it's not immediately clear, but I think it would still be easier.
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Well, I guess this is where we see if Rebuild is as powerful as she seems.
You guess wrong.
To be fair the way he phrased it the statement is true. The evaluation of "Is Rebuild as powerful as she seems" does indeed emerge, the result is just a negatory one.
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Well, I guess this is where we see if Rebuild is as powerful as she seems.
You guess wrong.
To be fair the way he phrased it the statement is true. The evaluation of "Is Rebuild as powerful as she seems" does indeed emerge, the result is just a negatory one.
No, I don't think the mega kingdom says much at all about the true strength of rebuild. Comparing a one card combo to all the potential multicard combos tells us very little. The mega kingdom proves rebuild isn't the best option in all possible kingdoms, but no one ever claimed that was the problem with the card in the first place.
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Too many cards available... Learning from the past, I would go Big Money, maybe with a couple Smithies.
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You could open Stonemason/$4/$4/Chapel, but what would you do this with?
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Treasure Map! Scout!
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No, I don't think the mega kingdom says much at all about the true strength of rebuild. Comparing a one card combo to all the potential multicard combos tells us very little. The mega kingdom proves rebuild isn't the best option in all possible kingdoms, but no one ever claimed that was the problem with the card in the first place.
The problem with rebuild is that its often the best option in all possible kingdoms
Ahem....
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Well, I guess this is where we see if Rebuild is as powerful as she seems.
You guess wrong.
To be fair the way he phrased it the statement is true. The evaluation of "Is Rebuild as powerful as she seems" does indeed emerge, the result is just a negatory one.
No, I don't think the mega kingdom says much at all about the true strength of rebuild. Comparing a one card combo to all the potential multicard combos tells us very little. The mega kingdom proves rebuild isn't the best option in all possible kingdoms, but no one ever claimed that was the problem with the card in the first place.
When you say "true strength" here, you're implicitly elevating true random kingdom selection over other kingdom selection methods. But all kingdom selection methods are canon, and encouraged by the rules, and truly dominion. The mega kingdom exercise, if it has a card incorporating 10 or fewer kingdom cards that are not rebuild (and it does) shows that there is at least one kingdom where rebuild is ok, so it is not universally overpowered. Its "true strength" is the same as Scout's, if you don't follow the common convention of thinking "true random all expansions is real Dominion".
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I think the Upgrade/Rats/Fortress strategy found by Hertz_Doughnut in his "Battle Royale" variant could be the optimal strategy; unopposed and with good support, it gains all Duchies (+2 Dukes) and ends the game by three-piling around turn 7 with average shuffle luck:
Battle Royale evolves. The combo that is currently dominating the format is not one that I have found in any forum post or strategy article on this site. And this combo can come up in regular Dominion... for example, this kingdom:
Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats (+ Colonies, + Shelters)
I can win that kingdom regularly in 7 turns on goko. The combo involved is much easier to set up than the Masquerade pin.
[...]
(You don't need exactly these 10 cards, nor Shelters or Colonies to make this work. Haven also helps.)
I don't think cursers or Chapel/KC can compete with this very fast strategy. Beggaring Duchies from turn 1 could compete with it if Dukes were banned...
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This looks like an interesting concept. Really mindblowing. You can do whatever you like! You 've got the means! It's almost crazy!
But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.
So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...
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On the other hand, assuming that someone else is not trying to rush a combo, i've always wanted to try out a Mega-Alt-VP slog with Duke - Silk Road - Gardens, or other alt-vp cards :P!
Grabbing Duchies would be my priority here, of course. Dukes would be worth the most. Then, Silk Roads can rump up lots of points with all these Duchies and Dukes and lastly, after bloating up my Deck with all these cards, Gardens can have a place in my deck as well (if 3 piles are not already drained by then :P).
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On the other hand, assuming that someone else is not trying to rush a combo, i've always wanted to try out a Mega-Alt-VP slog with Duke - Silk Road - Gardens, or other alt-vp cards :P!
Grabbing Duchies would be my priority here, of course. Dukes would be worth the most. Then, Silk Roads can rump up lots of points with all these Duchies and Dukes and lastly, after bloating up my Deck with all these cards, Gardens can have a place in my deck as well (if 3 piles are not already drained by then :P).
Any slog is going to be too slow. Even Hermit/Market Square is going to drain the Provinces way before you reach 48 VP, and I suspect there are even faster strategies.
Also, you will get absolutely crushed by any Rabble engine or KC/Saboteur.
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This looks like an interesting concept. Really mindblowing. You can do whatever you like! You 've got the means! It's almost crazy!
Yes, I felt the same when I read it and managed to pull it off myself. :)
But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.
So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...
I don't think these cards can easily compete with Upgrade/Rats/Fortress - you're not even guaranteed to gain and then draw a single King's Court by turn 7, and the other cards can't reliably gain 40 VP in 7 turns either. The Baker coin can help a little (Upgrade/Rats/Fortress doesn't even need it), but it's probably not enough.
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But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.
So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...
I don't think these cards can easily compete with Upgrade/Rats/Fortress - you're not even guaranteed to gain and then draw a single King's Court by turn 7, and the other cards can't reliably gain 40 VP in 7 turns either. The Baker coin can help a little (Upgrade/Rats/Fortress doesn't even need it), but it's probably not enough.
I agree. Going for the rush with this type of strategy has got to be better than anything that requires building up to multiple KCs. And if both of you go for a quick three-pile and you are behind in points, you can try to bail out to Silk Roads or Fairgrounds or Gardens or Goons at that point.
Discard attacks really hurt, though, so I would probably be making a place for Watchtower, as well. Maybe even unconditional on the other player going for a discard attack.
I am debating whether I would want an Ironworks, too. I think I would. You could use it to pick up extras like Warehouse or Menagerie or more Fortresses; one Remake, maybe?
This game should be over very quick.
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But i've got a feeling that some strategies that include some very specific cards will be dominant against almost any other strategy. This includes King's Court, Goons, Wharf, Bridge, Highway and such.
So, even though this setup looks a lot interesting, i've got this feeling that these few cards will be dominant over about 200 other kingdom cards and that would be just sad...
I don't think these cards can easily compete with Upgrade/Rats/Fortress - you're not even guaranteed to gain and then draw a single King's Court by turn 7, and the other cards can't reliably gain 40 VP in 7 turns either. The Baker coin can help a little (Upgrade/Rats/Fortress doesn't even need it), but it's probably not enough.
I agree. Going for the rush with this type of strategy has got to be better than anything that requires building up to multiple KCs. And if both of you go for a quick three-pile and you are behind in points, you can try to bail out to Silk Roads or Fairgrounds or Gardens or Goons at that point.
Discard attacks really hurt, though, so I would probably be making a place for Watchtower, as well. Maybe even unconditional on the other player going for a discard attack.
I am debating whether I would want an Ironworks, too. I think I would. You could use it to pick up extras like Warehouse or Menagerie or more Fortresses; one Remake, maybe?
This game should be over very quick.
"Bailing out" to $4 or $6 victory cards is difficult since Upgrade can only get $5 cards "for free" and you'll essentially have zero economy due to Rats multiplication. So agressively competing the Duchies could in principle be a counter-strategy; e.g. in a 4p game, this strategy could lose against three Beggar-Duchy rush players. Competing the Upgrades is another potential counter.
Watchtower is already very useful to trash surplus Rats and topdeck gained cards, no matter whether there are discard attacks.
I don't think Ironworks or the other cards you mention are worth it; the game is too short to waste a buy on them (except maybe if you're heavily attacked from the start), and you need to keep your deck as small as possible to pull off the pile-driving megaturns.
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"Bailing out" to $4 or $6 victory cards is difficult since Upgrade can only get $5 cards "for free" and you'll essentially have zero economy due to Rats multiplication. So agressively competing the Duchies could in principle be a counter-strategy; e.g. in a 4p game, this strategy could lose against three Beggar-Duchy rush players. Competing the Upgrades is another potential counter.
It would not be good to fall behind because that means the other person's strategy is extremely fast/lucky, but it would be doable to quickly gain some points -- Upgrade turns 5s into 6s (e.g. Fairgrounds) and there are a variety of useful 5s.
Watchtower is already very useful to trash surplus Rats and topdeck gained cards, no matter whether there are discard attacks.
I don't think Ironworks or the other cards you mention are worth it; the game is too short to waste a buy on them (except maybe if you're heavily attacked from the start), and you need to keep your deck as small as possible to pull off the pile-driving megaturns.
Yeah, I think Watchtower is probably a good addition regardless.
You only need to spend one buy (to get Ironworks; use it to get others). I think it would be worth it. You need to be getting Fortresses somehow, anyway.
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It would not be good to fall behind because that means the other person's strategy is extremely fast/lucky, but it would be doable to quickly gain some points -- Upgrade turns 5s into 6s (e.g. Fairgrounds) and there are a variety of useful 5s.
But you have no time or money to gain several $5 cards other than Upgrades - you'd have to use them on each other, which gives you very few VPs (Fairgrounds will usually only be worth 2 VP with this strategy).
You only need to spend one buy (to get Ironworks; use it to get others). I think it would be worth it. You need to be getting Fortresses somehow, anyway.
Yes, but I'm not sure if even the single buy spent on it is worth it (you can make do with a single Fortress if you buy a Haven, and I don't see much use for Menageries or Remake here). I'd have to try it, admittedly opening Rats/Ironworks with the Baker coin does sound like a good idea...
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So what is the exact combo? Because I doubt that Upgrade/Rats/Fortress can end the game in 7 turns with average shuffle luck.
Or is it the 10-card combo consisting of Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats? In that case I think it's a lot less impressive, since it's probably possible to empty the supply with worst-case shuffle luck in ~12 turns if you can choose the kingdom (although a solution has never been given AFAIK. Thread here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8784)). Sure, 12 turns is a lot more than 7 turns, but average shuffle luck is much better than worst-case shuffle luck and ending the game is a lot easier than emptying the supply.
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For sure, it uses many cards possibly more than 10 even. fortress and upgrade play a key part though. it doesn't use power cards like KC and wharf like people are talking about.
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if someone has an example game for this fortress/rats/upgrade whatsit, i'd like to see it. I can't quite picture it.
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I did some sample games yesterday on Goko. I can't reach the 7 turns myself yet, so it can probably be improved by quite a bit, but it will show the idea.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140114/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1389740746996.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140114/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1389740319866.txt
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Yes, that's the idea. You want to set yourself up so that in one turn you empty Upgrades and Rats and then the next turn empty Duchies.
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Here's 8 turns and 49 points on the first try.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140115/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1389830082640.txt
Kingdom cards used: Ironworks, Rats, Baker, Watchtower, Fortress, Upgrade, Duke, Procession, Pearl Diver, Catacombs (Cultist is probably better on average).
A few things to note:
1) Opened Ironworks-Rats with the coin token. What do you do on 5-2? Upgrade-Watchtower? Not sure.
2) Watchtower is great to empty piles earlier, without needing an empty discard pile to.... <meme> GAIN ALL THE RATS AND UPGRADES</meme>.
3) I wish the Catacombs would have been Cultist. In turn 7 I had to take a tiny risk by trashing Catacombs, gaining Procession and placing it on the deck. I wanted to gain Cultist, trash it and draw 3 to reduce the number of cards in my draw pile. With Procession there was a slight chance of failure. Cultist would have been no problem.
4) At the end of gaining all the Rats and Upgrades, be sure to use Ironworks to gain a Fortress and put it on your deck with Watchtower if you are able. This guaranteed success the next turn. If you don't, there is a chance you could fail (e.g. draw 5 rats then all your upgrades....).
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So what is the exact combo? Because I doubt that Upgrade/Rats/Fortress can end the game in 7 turns with average shuffle luck.
Or is it the 10-card combo consisting of Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats? In that case I think it's a lot less impressive, since it's probably possible to empty the supply with worst-case shuffle luck in ~12 turns if you can choose the kingdom (although a solution has never been given AFAIK. Thread here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8784)). Sure, 12 turns is a lot more than 7 turns, but average shuffle luck is much better than worst-case shuffle luck and ending the game is a lot easier than emptying the supply.
There are probably many variation to it, and I had to "practice" a bit. But I did it in 7 turns by opening Rats/Watchtower, than buying Procession, Fortress and (when I didn't get to $4) Haven in the next 3-4 turns. Use Procession on Rats or Fortress twice to gain two Upgrades, play Rats whenever you can (trash Estates or Coppers or Fortress), use Watchtower to topdeck gained cards and (if necessary) to draw. As soon as you draw your entire deck (without using Watchtower), you can piledrive Upgrades and Rats (trashing surplus Rats with Watchtower), use the last Upgrade to gain a topdecked Outpost, draw it and set aside Fortress with Haven, then play Outpost and piledrive Duchies on the extra turn. So I used effectively a 7-card combo; but without Outpost you could still do it in 8 turns, and Haven is probably not strictly necessary (just Upgrade Rats on the last turn until you draw the Fortress). I suspect it'd take maybe 9 or 10 turns with worst shuffle luck (you automatically draw your deck and get the combo after Rat-ifying your deck sufficiently).
It may work even faster by using the Baker coin to open Rats/Ironworks (or Armory?).
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PS:
Or is it the 10-card combo consisting of Hamlet, Menagerie, Watchtower, Tactician, Outpost, Upgrade, Squire, Procession, Fortress, Rats? In that case I think it's a lot less impressive, since it's probably possible to empty the supply with worst-case shuffle luck in ~12 turns if you can choose the kingdom (although a solution has never been given AFAIK. Thread here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8784)). Sure, 12 turns is a lot more than 7 turns, but average shuffle luck is much better than worst-case shuffle luck and ending the game is a lot easier than emptying the supply.
AFAICS, that thread didn't give any actual solutions to emptying the supply in any number (<50) of turns, only educated guesses. And the question assumed stacking the Black Market deck, which will more than make up for the worst shuffle luck for the deck, I think.
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How well does the Rats/Upgrade deck handle Ambassador and Goons?
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How well does the Rats/Upgrade deck handle Ambassador and Goons?
The discard Attack won't matter after the first turns, because all the cards you want to play are cantrips, so starting with 3 does not make a difference. I don't think a Goons player can rack up enough VP chips in 7-10 turns to compete with all Duchies.
Ambassador, I think it is too slow. Sure, you have a couple of more things to trash with Rats, but the slowing for the player playing Ambassador instead of developing would be much more significant.
Militia/Masquerade and later the pin could be a real threat, and it could be fast. Also, they are effectively starting with two actions plus a Copper, so the slowdown could be important until you reach pin-point.
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How well does the Rats/Upgrade deck handle Ambassador and Goons?
The discard Attack won't matter after the first turns, because all the cards you want to play are cantrips, so starting with 3 does not make a difference. I don't think a Goons player can rack up enough VP chips in 7-10 turns to compete with all Duchies.
Ambassador, I think it is too slow. Sure, you have a couple of more things to trash with Rats, but the slowing for the player playing Ambassador instead of developing would be much more significant.
Militia/Masquerade and later the pin could be a real threat, and it could be fast. Also, they are effectively starting with two actions plus a Copper, so the slowdown could be important until you reach pin-point.
I haven't tried any counter in a real game, but I also think that Ambassador and Goons are too slow to work (also, both attacks are countered by Watchtower).
Militia/Masq. would slow the combo down, but the KC/Militia/Masq. pin is broken by Fortress (because the pin player can't trash it and thus has to return it with the next Masquerade).
Swindler (or Saboteur) might be the best counter - you don't want to lose your first Procession/Upgrade (or your only Watchtower/Haven) after your economy is gone. But you can probably work around it by gaining two copies each before feeding your treasure to Rats; also Fortress is immune to trashing attacks.
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i suspect that adding cultist to the rats/upgrade strat could effectively stop the pin from getting set up in time - in the absence of some other insane speed.
I think some chapel/squire/watchtower shenanigans might make it really easy to set the pin up, tho...