Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 09:18:43 am

Title: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 09:18:43 am
And by version 3.0, I mean this is at least the third card called "Redistrict" that I've posted on these forums. It's probably the fifth or so card I've tried under that name. My quest for good one-shot trash-for-benefit is never-ending.

While I was trying to come up with a good top half for a cheap Reaction, I thought of half-a-Remake. "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it." Seemed like a better fit for a cheap one-shot than a cheap Reaction, and the feedback the other thread is convincing me that a Conscripts-gaining Reaction should be more expensive.

So here's Redistrict:

(https://i.imgur.com/jvfuBmn.png) (https://i.imgur.com/Fl32JuL.png)

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the first gained card.

I'd like a $2 terminal in my set and this is potentially a great fit because it can't cost $3 or $4. Originally I had it at $3, but at that price you can turn $2 cards (Estates) into Redistricts and then trash the played Redistrict for a $4 card. You break even on Redistricts and get a card costing $4. So it could be used as a Remodel until the Redistricts run out. Bad news.

Costing $4 isn't quite as bad, but it does allow a player to needlessly run out the pile when trashing $2 cards by trashing the played Redistrict to gain another Redistrict.

So $2 it is! And $2 seems like an OK price for the card, assuming it's not too weak even at that price.

Any crazy broken combos I'm missing? It can still be used to gain itself when $1 cards are available, but I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: soulnet on January 03, 2014, 09:43:10 am
I think this is nice. In a hand of Redistrict+4 starting cards (without 3 Estates), is basically Remake in most cases (trash two cards, Estates get you Silvers, buy "nothing" because you need the buy to re-buy the Redistrict) so it is even a fine early trasher if it is the only one available. The problem is that with 2 players using it as an early trasher, the pile will basically run out before the game is even started. With 3 or 4, the trashing luck would be worst than with Chapel, because some players will get more trashing turns than others (depending on how fast you draw your Redistrict). I would possibly open Redistrict/Redistrict in multiplayer games because of that problem. I guess it will be in the neighborhood of Ambassador's luck-issues.

About the wording: I think something like this is clearer.

Trash a card from your hand. Gain one or two cards, each costing exactly $1 more than it. If you gained two cards, trash this.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 10:32:12 am
I think you've slightly misread the card. If you choose to trash the Redistrict, you gain a card costing $1 more than the card you just gained, not the one you trashed. So if you trash an Estate and gain a Silver, you can trash the Redistrict and gain a $4 card.

Thanks for the feedback, though. It's possible that the card just won't work out if everybody just rushes them every game. If that happens, at least I can try the first part on a Reaction.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Eistee on January 03, 2014, 11:12:46 am
I like this! Clean, simple, easy, yet clever.

Might playtest it when I get to see my Dominion-Friend. I love good fan-made 2s.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 11:15:28 am
I like this! Clean, simple, easy, yet clever.

Might playtest it when I get to see my Dominion-Friend. I love good fan-made 2s.

Thanks! I hope it works well. If you have time, let me know how it goes.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: soulnet on January 03, 2014, 11:27:04 am
Thanks for the feedback, though. It's possible that the card just won't work out if everybody just rushes them every game. If that happens, at least I can try the first part on a Reaction.

Ups, you are right, sorry.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 11:36:38 am
Thanks for the feedback, though. It's possible that the card just won't work out if everybody just rushes them every game. If that happens, at least I can try the first part on a Reaction.

Ups, you are right, sorry.

But then you struck out the part of your earlier post that was valid and left the part that doesn't apply to the card? ???
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Polk5440 on January 03, 2014, 12:01:27 pm
I think it's worth testing, as is.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: simval on January 03, 2014, 12:02:48 pm
I quite like it !

I understand the costing logic, for not gaining free Redistrics, but I think 2$ for a good trash-for-benefit like that is not a lot.

However, it could balance itself... Make this clearer for me please :

Let's say I have a hand of Copper-Copper-Silver-Redistric-Village, or something like that, and use the redistric to trash a copper. The way fhe card is worded, I'd get a 1$ card... but there are none on the board so I get nothing. After that I trash redistric so I get a card costing 1$ more than the one I gained... which doesn't exist.

So basically Redistrict just doesn't work with coppers and curses, right ? That's a really interesting mechanic. I quite like it. It's woth testing, definitely !
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 12:25:35 pm
I quite like it !

I understand the costing logic, for not gaining free Redistrics, but I think 2$ for a good trash-for-benefit like that is not a lot.

However, it could balance itself... Make this clearer for me please :

Let's say I have a hand of Copper-Copper-Silver-Redistric-Village, or something like that, and use the redistric to trash a copper. The way fhe card is worded, I'd get a 1$ card... but there are none on the board so I get nothing. After that I trash redistric so I get a card costing 1$ more than the one I gained... which doesn't exist.

So basically Redistrict just doesn't work with coppers and curses, right ? That's a really interesting mechanic. I quite like it. It's woth testing, definitely !

Yes, you've got it! That is exactly the intended behavior! It's not that it doesn't work with Coppers and Curses. You can use Redistrict to trash those cards and gain nothing (assuming there are no $1 cards in the Supply). But if you gain nothing, you will also fail to gain anything if you choose to trash the Redistrict. So you wouldn't choose to do so unless you just wanted the Redistrict out of your deck.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: simval on January 03, 2014, 01:07:39 pm
Great design, it not always easy to create good 2$ cards.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: soulnet on January 03, 2014, 01:25:45 pm
Thanks for the feedback, though. It's possible that the card just won't work out if everybody just rushes them every game. If that happens, at least I can try the first part on a Reaction.

Ups, you are right, sorry.

But then you struck out the part of your earlier post that was valid and left the part that doesn't apply to the card? ???

The first part was not valid, because it assumed you may trash two cards from hands a la remake, which you cannot. I should have struck everything.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: GendoIkari on January 03, 2014, 07:07:27 pm
Not that I'm arguing that $2 isn't a good price, but I want to point out that I don't think your reasoning against $3 is sound. It sounds like you're saying that it can't be $3 because it's basically Remodel as long as there's still some in the supply. However, it's only Remodel for $2 cost cards (basically, for your Estates). Remodel could still do lots of things that a $3 Redistrict couldn't do, such as turning Silver into $5s, and especially turning Gold into Provinces.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: manthos88 on January 03, 2014, 07:53:29 pm
Interesting concept. I kinda like it.

I 'd love to see this card with $7's on the board.

This is where this card really shines...

Trash Gold, gain a $7, trash Redistrict, gain Province. And you got two very important cards in your deck. Just like that. I like it.

Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 03, 2014, 08:18:54 pm
Not that I'm arguing that $2 isn't a good price, but I want to point out that I don't think your reasoning against $3 is sound. It sounds like you're saying that it can't be $3 because it's basically Remodel as long as there's still some in the supply. However, it's only Remodel for $2 cost cards (basically, for your Estates). Remodel could still do lots of things that a $3 Redistrict couldn't do, such as turning Silver into $5s, and especially turning Gold into Provinces.

You are 100% correct. Still, the fact that you could use it as a Remodel for Estates by draining the pile is a turn-off for me. If everybody does that at the start of the game, there'll be no Redistricts left for more interesting maneuvers later in the game, like trashing a $4 for a $5 and a $6.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: soulnet on January 03, 2014, 08:50:29 pm
You are 100% correct. Still, the fact that you could use it as a Remodel for Estates by draining the pile is a turn-off for me. If everybody does that at the start of the game, there'll be no Redistricts left for more interesting maneuvers later in the game, like trashing a $4 for a $5 and a $6.

Remodeling Estates into $4s is not usually a strong opening move anyway.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: manthos88 on January 05, 2014, 11:30:17 am
Another thing that just came into mind is that this card could possibly make a Mint opening viable (Mint/Redistrict on 5/2 opening).

I 've been trying to find whether a Mint opening would ever be viable. I haven't found of any case where this could happen, but i think this card might just be that case.

After getting rid of 5 Coppers, you can easily Redistrict Estates into Silvers, then (perhaps) Mint the Silvers and you could even Redistrict the Mint into a Gold (or another $6) if you don't need it.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: markusin on January 05, 2014, 11:37:41 am
I 've been trying to find whether a Mint opening would ever be viable. I haven't found of any case where this could happen, but i think this card might just be that case.
I think the free Baker token adds a lot of plausible options for Mint openings. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Hermit.

Without Baker, there is probably only one Mint opening you need to know about: Mint/Fool's Gold.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: manthos88 on January 05, 2014, 11:42:30 am
I 've been trying to find whether a Mint opening would ever be viable. I haven't found of any case where this could happen, but i think this card might just be that case.
I think the free Baker token adds a lot of plausible options for Mint openings. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Hermit.

Without Baker, there is probably only one Mint opening you need to know about: Mint/Fool's Gold.


Nice! Never thought about it! I literally thought that Mint would never be viable at 5/2 opening...
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 05, 2014, 11:59:33 am
Another thing that just came into mind is that this card could possibly make a Mint opening viable (Mint/Redistrict on 5/2 opening).

In answer to your actual question, Mint/Redistrict could be amazing. Imagine a deck of KC/Goons/Copper/Copper/Estate/Estate/Estate after turn 3. Buy another Redistrict and you'll have those Estates gone by turn 5.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: markusin on January 05, 2014, 12:08:14 pm
Another thing that just came into mind is that this card could possibly make a Mint opening viable (Mint/Redistrict on 5/2 opening).

In answer to your actual question, Mint/Redistrict could be amazing. Imagine a deck of KC/Goons/Copper/Copper/Estate/Estate/Estate after turn 3. Buy another Redistrict and you'll have those Estates gone by turn 5.
Woah, I mixed up Redistrict with Davio's VP token card that's being discussed right now. Yeah, the situation you describe would be pretty awesome. You can even KC the Redistrict.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: soulnet on January 05, 2014, 12:09:46 pm
I 've been trying to find whether a Mint opening would ever be viable. I haven't found of any case where this could happen, but i think this card might just be that case.
I think the free Baker token adds a lot of plausible options for Mint openings. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Hermit.

Without Baker, there is probably only one Mint opening you need to know about: Mint/Fool's Gold.


Nice! Never thought about it! I literally thought that Mint would never be viable at 5/2 opening...

Mint/Lighthouse can be good if there are cheap Attacks. Mint/Lighthouse opening with Ambassador on the board can be REALLY good, as you get to play Amb every turn while being Lighthouse protected almost immediately. With Swindler is not as amazing, but also pretty nice. And even with $5 strong Attacks like a $5 junker is good, because you will be playing the junker almost every turn while protected, even though they might get the junker before you.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: florrat on January 07, 2014, 03:25:17 pm
Remodeling Estates into $4s is not usually a strong opening move anyway.
Can you elaborate? Remodeling Estates into $4s (or $3s) sound like an excellent way to turn dead cards in your deck into useful cards.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 07, 2014, 03:35:35 pm
Sometimes opening Remodel is good, but usually even Silver is better - most of the time, the key cards are at $5, not $4.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 07, 2014, 03:45:21 pm
When there are good $4 cantrips on the board (e.g. Caravan, Tournament, Ironmonger), Remodel can be a strong opening. Lacking that, I'd rather have Remake. When you don't trash it, Redistrict should be weaker than Remake or Develop for trashing Estates (as befits its $2 price tag), but at least when you have a hand of [Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Redistrict], you can Redistrict the Estate and still buy a $3 card that turn. So it doesn't kill your current turn as badly as Remake tends to do.

To elaborate, there are lots of better ways than Remodel to remove Estates from your deck. Lacking any of them, Remodel can be a nice choice since early removal of Estates tends to be a strong play.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 12:56:01 pm
I think the card is too strong.


I think there's some circular logic in saying "When you don't trash it, Redistrict should be weaker than Remake or Develop for trashing Estates, as befits its 2$ price tag".  If the 2$ price tag was really accurate for the card, why would you even be discussing the case where you don't trash it? You would trash it for a 4$ card, which is more powerful.  Remake is a powerful 4$ card even mentioned in the statement, which makes it seem circular.
"When you don't trash it [which must mean, in situations where redistrict is more useful than a 4$ card], Redistrict should be weaker than Remake."
"When redistrict is more useful than a 4$ card it's less useful than a 4$ card"

It seems like your baseline for comparison is that people will not (always) buy this card when they have 4$ and one buy.  That seems like a weak baseline power test for a 4$ card.

When I read the card, I first misread it to mean the gained cards would have the same cost.  It seemed healthy at that kind of cost, trading a 2$ card up to a 3$ card isn't such a no brainer.  Swapping Redistrict for a 4$ card IS a nobrainer unless Redistrict is too strong in the first place.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 02:31:53 pm
I think the card is too strong.


I think there's some circular logic in saying "When you don't trash it, Redistrict should be weaker than Remake or Develop for trashing Estates, as befits its 2$ price tag".  If the 2$ price tag was really accurate for the card, why would you even be discussing the case where you don't trash it? You would trash it for a 4$ card, which is more powerful.  Remake is a powerful 4$ card even mentioned in the statement, which makes it seem circular.
"When you don't trash it [which must mean, in situations where redistrict is more useful than a 4$ card], Redistrict should be weaker than Remake."
"When redistrict is more useful than a 4$ card it's less useful than a 4$ card"

It seems like your baseline for comparison is that people will not (always) buy this card when they have 4$ and one buy.  That seems like a weak baseline power test for a 4$ card.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your argument. I'm not saying it's invalid, but I'm trying to apply it to actual games. If the best play when you trash an Estate turns out to nearly always be trashing the Redistrict for a $4 card AND THEN buying another Redistrict to replace it, I won't be a big fan of that. But even that may not be a dealbreaker. Maybe it's just a pile that tends to run out quickly and if you see that happening, you're less likely to just trash your Redistricts automatically.

In general, it is silliness to claim that trading a $2 card for a $4 card is always the best move. I'm sure you've played plenty of games where you opted not to trash $2 Fool's Golds even though you would gain $6 Golds on your deck. Maybe Redistrict is the only way to trash Estates on the board and you'd like to keep it in your deck until your last Estate is trashed. Maybe there are no spammable $4 cards and you already have your copy of Moneylender or Militia or whatever. Or maybe there are no $4 cards at all.

Similarly, there are plenty of times you'd buy other $2 cards for $3 or even $4. So your baseline power test comment makes little sense to me.

When I read the card, I first misread it to mean the gained cards would have the same cost.  It seemed healthy at that kind of cost, trading a 2$ card up to a 3$ card isn't such a no brainer.  Swapping Redistrict for a 4$ card IS a nobrainer unless Redistrict is too strong in the first place.

The reason it doesn't do that is so you can't trash a $7 card for two Provinces, which I saw as a bridge too far. I could do this and stipulate that the two cards are differently named, but that doesn't sound super-appealing to me right now.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 08, 2014, 03:20:57 pm
I had trouble understanding pops' argument at first too, but now that I get it let me try to explain it more clearly:

If Redistrict is better than Remodel, then that's obviously it's own problem.  If Redistrict is worse than Remodel, then every time they appear together, you will use the one-shot ability of Redistrict to turn it into Remodel (assuming that you have just Redistricted an Estate).  The Redistrict will never stay in your deck for more than one shuffle (unless it misses an Estate).

I don't know how much of a problem that is.  Other official cards do that too (Feast, Pillage), but those cards aren't really intended to have a decision about when to trash them, since they only do things when you trash them.  So I'm trying to figure out whether Redistrict is strictly better than Remodel as an opening, and I think it is:

Let's say you open Remodel/$3, then Remodel Estate into a $4.  Then you end with Remodel/$4/$3.
Now say you open Redistrict/$4, then Redistrict Estate into a $3 and trash it for a $4.  Then you end with $4/$4/$3, which is the same as above but more flexible.  (It also grabs the $4 earlier which is probably slightly better.)

So if that's right then that's an issue, probably what popsofctown was worried about.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 03:24:31 pm
Edge case: opening Remodel/Scheme, you can topdeck the Remodel but not a trashed Redistrict.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 03:51:07 pm
I had trouble understanding pops' argument at first too, but now that I get it let me try to explain it more clearly:

If Redistrict is better than Remodel, then that's obviously it's own problem.  If Redistrict is worse than Remodel, then every time they appear together, you will use the one-shot ability of Redistrict to turn it into Remodel (assuming that you have just Redistricted an Estate).  The Redistrict will never stay in your deck for more than one shuffle (unless it misses an Estate).

I don't know how much of a problem that is.  Other official cards do that too (Feast, Pillage), but those cards aren't really intended to have a decision about when to trash them, since they only do things when you trash them.  So I'm trying to figure out whether Redistrict is strictly better than Remodel as an opening, and I think it is:

Let's say you open Remodel/$3, then Remodel Estate into a $4.  Then you end with Remodel/$4/$3.
Now say you open Redistrict/$4, then Redistrict Estate into a $3 and trash it for a $4.  Then you end with $4/$4/$3, which is the same as above but more flexible.  (It also grabs the $4 earlier which is probably slightly better.)

So if that's right then that's an issue, probably what popsofctown was worried about.

Aha, I see! Thanks for going through that. Yes, that is undesirable. I guess? Probably. Yeah, let's say it is.

So a couple of possible fixes:

• Cost it at $4. Either I can include a clause that doesn't let it gain itself, or I can just suck it up and let it gain itself when you trash an Estate with it and then trash it.

• When you trash it, you just gain a differently named card costing the same as the other one you gained. This seems like it would have really awkward wording. Well, let's try it:

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a differently named card with that cost.

This is the most concise wording I can think of, but it has the issue of being unclear whether I'm talking about the card you gained or the Redistrict itself. Although it would make the card significantly more powerful when throned, I could instead have this clearer wording:

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may gain a differently named card with that same cost. If you did gain 2 cards, trash this.

Or soulnet's wording:

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain up to 2 differently named cards each costing exactly $1 more than it. If you gained 2 cards, trash this.

Any preferences?

EDIT: Or maybe the fact that it's better for trashing Estates than Remodel isn't a big deal. It usually can't be used to trash Gold for Province, which is a big part of Remodel's power. Argh. Well, since I already cut and sleeved the original version but haven't had a chance to playtest it yet, I might as well test it as-is first and see how that goes.

EDIT 2: Yeah, the more I think about it, the more this seems OK. Chapel and Masquerade are usually better openings than Remodel as well, but neither does all the things Remodel can do.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 04:23:03 pm
Remodeling Golds into Provinces is a key aspect of Remodel.  One that is all yours if you trash Redistrict so that you gain a Remodel for a smooth mid-lategame transition.

I don't think being weaker than a power four is a sufficient condition for a 2$ card to be balanced in the first place, though.  A 2$ Village would be worse than Walled Village, but would that make a 2$ Village an ok thing? A 2$ card needs to be significantly worse than 4$ cards, and reasonable effect on the first play and 4$ power on every play after that seems like a hard sell for "significantly worse" for me.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 04:25:25 pm
I don't consider Masquerade a well designed card, so you can probably prove what you want that way.

Chapel is intended to be an incredibly strong required purchase that the 5/2 player shouldn't even be able to miss out on.  If that's your vision for the card you need not make comparisons at all, and knocking Remake into obsolesence with every appearance should be your goal.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 04:48:17 pm
Remodeling Golds into Provinces is a key aspect of Remodel.  One that is all yours if you trash Redistrict so that you gain a Remodel for a smooth mid-lategame transition.

Most games won't have both. When a game does, that Redistrict-to-Remodel transition sounds like a cool combo! I don't see why I would kill it.

I don't think being weaker than a power four is a sufficient condition for a 2$ card to be balanced in the first place, though.  A 2$ Village would be worse than Walled Village, but would that make a 2$ Village an ok thing? A 2$ card needs to be significantly worse than 4$ cards, and reasonable effect on the first play and 4$ power on every play after that seems like a hard sell for "significantly worse" for me.

This is a fallacy. No $2 card should be strictly better than a $4 card, but Redistrict isn't strictly better than Remake or Remodel. Or any published card for that matter. A $2 card needs to be significantly worse than $4 cards? Nope. Is Fool's Gold significantly worse than Moneylender? How about Courtyard? Cards that are "significantly worse than $4 cards" don't get printed at all, at least not as Kingdom cards. Cards that cost $2 instead of $4 have that cost because:

1. Opening with two of them isn't crazy powerful.
2. Opening with it and most $5 cards isn't crazy powerful.
3. Being able to amass a bunch of them with extra buys isn't crazy powerful.

Maybe a turbo-Redistrict strategy is crazy powerful, but barring that, the argument that it's just not weak enough for a $2 card doesn't hold water.

I recommend this essay about the $2 to $4 cost range if you haven't already read it: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=84.0

I don't consider Masquerade a well designed card, so you can probably prove what you want that way.

Chapel is intended to be an incredibly strong required purchase that the 5/2 player shouldn't even be able to miss out on.  If that's your vision for the card you need not make comparisons at all, and knocking Remake into obsolesence with every appearance should be your goal.

My goal isn't necessarily to make Redistrict a super-powered, must-buy, game-warping card by undercosting it. I was simply illustrating that a card can be better than another, more expensive card at one thing if it's incapable or worse at doing other things.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 04:51:42 pm
I find those both significantly worse than Moneylender, yes.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 04:54:21 pm
I find those both significantly worse than Moneylender, yes.

Well then I don't know what to tell you. What $2 cards do you buy, if you think they should all be weak? (Other than Chapel.)
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: Grujah on January 08, 2014, 05:04:27 pm
Why $1 more than first gained rather than 2$ than trashed card?
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 05:10:37 pm
Why $1 more than first gained rather than 2$ than trashed card?

It's a nerf so that you can't use it to trash Coppers into Redistricts (thereby running out the pile) or Golds into Provinces without a card to bridge the gap. Also once you've trashed the Redistrict, "the trashed card" becomes a bit ambiguous.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 05:23:36 pm
I find those both significantly worse than Moneylender, yes.

Well then I don't know what to tell you. What $2 cards do you buy, if you think they should all be weak? (Other than Chapel.)
I buy 2$ cards when I have less than 4$ spend, when I'm in the unusual position where the 2$ card is better than 4s, or when I'm making use of +buy.  Fool's Gold is good when you can buy two in one turn, that's the main time it is competitive with engines.  There's not a comparison between Fool's Gold and Moneylender, but rather a comparison between double Fool's Gold and Moneylender, because you usually buy your first 4$ Fool's Gold to make the ones you buy with 5$ and +buy more meaningful.

Courtyard is usually not good.  It is one of the best BM+X cards in the game, but it's not good in engines, and more games favor engines than ones that don't.  It's cheaper than Smithy because it's usually worse.  So that's one of those unusual positions where the 2$ card is better than the 4s.  It's admittedly one of the more remarkable significant majorities, but it's still a 2$ quality card.

Neither of these cards can net you +1 to <handsize + action total> after they resolve, and power an endgame engine that way.  Redistrict can do that, every single play after it has replaced itself with a 4$ card.  In fact, I cannot think of a single 2$ card that consistently nets you a +1 to <handsize + action total>.  Hamlet does so if you have a useless card or draw until X.  Crossroads does, but only if it's the first Crossroads you've played.  Pawn certainly can't..

Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 05:28:49 pm
Neither of these cards can net you +1 to <handsize + action total> after they resolve, and power an endgame engine that way.  Redistrict can do that, every single play after it has replaced itself with a 4$ card.  In fact, I cannot think of a single 2$ card that consistently nets you a +1 to <handsize + action total>.  Hamlet does so if you have a useless card or draw until X.  Crossroads does, but only if it's the first Crossroads you've played.  Pawn certainly can't..

OK, I'm confused. Redistrict certainly doesn't net you +1 to <handsize + action total> after it resolves. In fact, it nets you –3. But somehow you're saying that it does so after it replaces itself with a better card? Could you explain that part of your logic a bit more?

And sorry to nitpick, but Vagrant can net you +1, if <handsize + action total> means what I think it means. Beggar can too, for what that's worth.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. You said "consistently". So Vagrant wouldn't count. Apologies.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 05:40:30 pm
The first time you play Redistrict, it's a Redistrict.  When it trashes itself and you gain a 4$ card, it's roughly equivalent to the Redistrict itself transforming into a 4$ Dominion card instead of trashing or gaining anything.

I've been reading too much about Theseus's paradox.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus_paradox


Beggar works if your opponent is consistently playing attacks, yes. 
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: LastFootnote on January 08, 2014, 05:52:51 pm
The first time you play Redistrict, it's a Redistrict.  When it trashes itself and you gain a 4$ card, it's roughly equivalent to the Redistrict itself transforming into a 4$ Dominion card instead of trashing or gaining anything.

Sure, I get that. But the fact is that there are two circumstances that mitigate that power. First, you get –3 to your <handsize + action count> on the turn you pull that off. Second, you don't actually get the benefit of that $4 card until your next shuffle (or until the game ends if it's a Victory card). That delay matters a lot. By your logic, it seems like Feast would have to cost $5 because it can transform into a $5 card.

I argue that a $2 card that can (conditionally) trash itself to gain a $4 card is weaker than a $4 card that can trash itself to gain a $5 card because the difference between $2 and $4 is less than the difference between $4 and $5 when it comes to Dominion costs. Of course, you're also trashing an Estate and gaining a $3 card in the bargain, which is very significant, but I don't think it's so cut-and-dried that this is too strong.

Furthermore, if a <handsize + action count> reduction on the current turn is not significant when paired with a corresponding increase later, you should take issue with Haven. It's –1 the turn you play it, but +1 on the next turn.

Beggar works if your opponent is consistently playing attacks, yes.

Actually, I was talking about its Action effect. –1 Action and –1 handsize when you play the Beggar, but +3 handsize when you gain 3 Copper in hand. Sum total: +1.

By the way, thanks for having this conversation with me. I find it very fascinating and I do like the <handsize + action count> as a metric.
Title: Re: Redistrict v3.0
Post by: popsofctown on January 08, 2014, 06:02:33 pm
I am surprised you like it even though I am quite stubborn.

I had a mindblown when I started using <handsize + actions> as a metric like a year ago (which is nowhere near when I started Dominion).  It helps me understand stuff like why Festival + Moat can work, why Necropolis is good with Nobles, and blahblah.