Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: UmbrageOfSnow on August 07, 2013, 01:02:41 am
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Talking about theory is often seen as a waste of time during games. Regardless of our opinions on that, out of a game, it can't be used as cover for scum and won't make rereads any harder. I'd like to use this thread to talk about games that have recently ended, and the theory ideas proposed in them.
This post will serve as an index if the thread gets too long. If there are any old games people have a burning desire to talk about, by all means bring them up!
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The thing that I've had on my mind lately is Ashersky's plan in Blitz ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8843.500)
I think three people should claim cop.
Here's why:
1. We have a cop, but he's unprotectable. Mafia wants to kill the Cop. They have a 1/5 chance of randomly catching him.
2. We have a doctor, but he can't protect the cop. Mafia kind of cares, but not really. The doctor can protect 3/6 other players, so a 50% chance of choosing someone protectable.
I think we want to WIFOM the heck out of mafia, who have a pretty sweet situation here. 2/7 is like starting off a regular game on D3. They're trying to get us to lylo or worse as quickly as we can.
3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know. That's the point. I don't want anyone to suggest if the real cop should claim among three or not. Did scum claim among the three? Maybe. Maybe not.
I think three players should claim to be the cop. Then we should proceed normally. Night actions should be taken according to the PRs' preferences. But the 3 cop claims will add necessary WIFOM to the mafia decision, which will help town.
We ended up going along with this. EFHW (VT) jumped in and claimed cop first. Umbrageofsnow (an Macho-cop with possibly terrible timing) claimed second. Nkirbit (Scum) claimed not-a-cop. Sudgy (VT) Claimed cop.
I'd like to talk about two things, in relation to this plan:
1) Is this even a good idea at all? Scum did end up guessing that either Sudgy or I were the cop, but Jimmmmmm (scum) thinks they would have been guessing that anyway. I think that the best plan for scum in that situation is to ignore the claims completely, but I think human nature is to try to read into it, so I think there is some merit to this plan.
I suspect the best move for the cop is to flip a coin to decide whether to claim cop or not. But if everyone is ignoring this, it could be totally pointless.
2) Regardless of it being a good idea, do you think there is much value in this for either helping scum find the cop, or confusing scum about who the cop is?
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I also noticed that no scum claimed cop. I was thinking that if I were scum in that situation, I wouldn't claim cop, to give as many town-members room to slip up and claim cop in a coppy way as possible. Which would make this a tool for scumhunting if Mafia follow that logic. So where is the Nash-equilibrium, now that Mafia are thinking about this? I'm not sure. Isn't mafia fun?
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My opinion, if I were scum I'd ignore this all together when factoring in NKs. Sure it'd be in the back of my mind, but there is no guarantee that the Cop is in those 3 people, so I'd rather go for whoever is most advantageous to kill at the time.
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Given it was my plan, I'm obviously biased. I'll share my thinking behind it, though.
I've always always always wanted to fake claim a town PR as town. The problem is that, in a normal game (including blitz), if I claim Cop as a VT, then the real Cop counterclaims me, we caught a liar, but not scum. And I outed the real cop. That's obviously bad.
Fakeclaiming a PR as town serves purposes, though. It keeps me alive, it makes me the NK while protecting the real PR, it creates WIFOM, it does a lot. But the negatives are REALLY negative. And I couldn't find a way to credibly PR claim while also telling the real one not to claim.
Hence the 3-Cop Plan was born. It explicited called for town to fakeclaim to protect the real one. It built in the WIFOM of "did the real cop claim or not" into it. It was impossible to ignore, once done. Impossible. I don't care how much we say we'd just ignore it, we can't. We read it. It's there.
Was the plan awesome? Nope. Did it help? Maybe. I wanted to try something out that could allow for something I've always wanted. It definitely didn't hurt.
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For what it's worth, I didn't choose to kill Sudgy because I thought he was more likely the cop. I did it because I thought he was more likely to cop EFHW.
I like plans, but I've found that I tend to actually wish that we didn't have them in games.. the discussion they lead to hardly ever seems fun to me. My favorite games so far have been Back to Basics and ZM14.. both had absolutely zero theory talk. I think the conciseness that lead to was a large part of why I enjoyed them.
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I have had one case where claiming PR as VT was a good idea. I was the doctor, the cop had claimed, and I was saying that the doctor could protect the cop (this was before we realized follow the cop was broken). If the cop could survive one more night, town would win. People were saying, "What if the doctor isn't alive?" (we also weren't revealing roles upon death) and I kept insisting that the doctor could save the cop. Someone else realized that I was the doctor before everybody else, and he claimed doc. I knew he was innocent, as I had saved him earlier. He got killed the next night.
Now, it would have been fine if I had claimed doc, because then the cop would have figured things out anyway, but at an earlier time in the game this might be better.
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I think the harder thing for town in regard to plans is that scum is right there while they're being formulated, argued about, and used. Good scum will adjust to it.
Also, you don't really know if the plan is coming from scum or town. As a mini-example, in Mean Girls, scum chose partners. It was closed setup, so no one (not even scum) knew that Scum A chose Scum B who then chose Scum C. In the game, Eevee chose me, I chose yuma.
What we did know was that scum chose their own teams, and whether or not we were part of choosing. I proposed that we all list who we would have chosen. I think Eevee said yuma, I said Eevee, and yuma said me. We all listed each other, but had not chosen them.
The list itself wasn't a "plan" per se, but it was setup theory. It got people talking, and generally led people astray. It kept people from scumhunting, sort of. And where scumhunting came of it, it was like "well, 4 people said mcmc, by far the most, he's most likely scum."
TLDR: you can't always trust the source of the plan/theory talk.
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The thing that I've had on my mind lately is Ashersky's plan in Blitz ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8843.500)
I think three people should claim cop.
Here's why:
1. We have a cop, but he's unprotectable. Mafia wants to kill the Cop. They have a 1/5 chance of randomly catching him.
2. We have a doctor, but he can't protect the cop. Mafia kind of cares, but not really. The doctor can protect 3/6 other players, so a 50% chance of choosing someone protectable.
I think we want to WIFOM the heck out of mafia, who have a pretty sweet situation here. 2/7 is like starting off a regular game on D3. They're trying to get us to lylo or worse as quickly as we can.
3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know. That's the point. I don't want anyone to suggest if the real cop should claim among three or not. Did scum claim among the three? Maybe. Maybe not.
I think three players should claim to be the cop. Then we should proceed normally. Night actions should be taken according to the PRs' preferences. But the 3 cop claims will add necessary WIFOM to the mafia decision, which will help town.
We ended up going along with this. EFHW (VT) jumped in and claimed cop first. Umbrageofsnow (an Macho-cop with possibly terrible timing) claimed second. Nkirbit (Scum) claimed not-a-cop. Sudgy (VT) Claimed cop.
I'd like to talk about two things, in relation to this plan:
1) Is this even a good idea at all? Scum did end up guessing that either Sudgy or I were the cop, but Jimmmmmm (scum) thinks they would have been guessing that anyway. I think that the best plan for scum in that situation is to ignore the claims completely, but I think human nature is to try to read into it, so I think there is some merit to this plan.
I suspect the best move for the cop is to flip a coin to decide whether to claim cop or not. But if everyone is ignoring this, it could be totally pointless.
2) Regardless of it being a good idea, do you think there is much value in this for either helping scum find the cop, or confusing scum about who the cop is?
I don't think the claiming weighed into our decision at all. I know it wasn't in my mind. The big decision, of course, was to kill the Doc or go for the Cop. I was pretty sure EFHW wasn't the Cop, just based on how closed she'd been to getting lynched without claiming, so it was a choice between sudgy and UoS if we went that way. I probably would have gone for the safe kill of ash, but nkirbit took the gutsy move and it just didn't work out.
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Given it was my plan, I'm obviously biased. I'll share my thinking behind it, though.
I've always always always wanted to fake claim a town PR as town. The problem is that, in a normal game (including blitz), if I claim Cop as a VT, then the real Cop counterclaims me, we caught a liar, but not scum. And I outed the real cop. That's obviously bad.
Fakeclaiming a PR as town serves purposes, though. It keeps me alive, it makes me the NK while protecting the real PR, it creates WIFOM, it does a lot. But the negatives are REALLY negative. And I couldn't find a way to credibly PR claim while also telling the real one not to claim.
Hence the 3-Cop Plan was born. It explicited called for town to fakeclaim to protect the real one. It built in the WIFOM of "did the real cop claim or not" into it. It was impossible to ignore, once done. Impossible. I don't care how much we say we'd just ignore it, we can't. We read it. It's there.
Was the plan awesome? Nope. Did it help? Maybe. I wanted to try something out that could allow for something I've always wanted. It definitely didn't hurt.
I think this (VT claiming PR) is a cool idea that to my knowledge hasn't really been done. It'd be pretty hard (read: stupid) to do at this stage though. Would it be worth either trying to change our groupthink such that a false claim isn't necessarily scum, or trying to work the possibility into the setup somehow?
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Given it was my plan, I'm obviously biased. I'll share my thinking behind it, though.
I've always always always wanted to fake claim a town PR as town. The problem is that, in a normal game (including blitz), if I claim Cop as a VT, then the real Cop counterclaims me, we caught a liar, but not scum. And I outed the real cop. That's obviously bad.
Fakeclaiming a PR as town serves purposes, though. It keeps me alive, it makes me the NK while protecting the real PR, it creates WIFOM, it does a lot. But the negatives are REALLY negative. And I couldn't find a way to credibly PR claim while also telling the real one not to claim.
Hence the 3-Cop Plan was born. It explicited called for town to fakeclaim to protect the real one. It built in the WIFOM of "did the real cop claim or not" into it. It was impossible to ignore, once done. Impossible. I don't care how much we say we'd just ignore it, we can't. We read it. It's there.
Was the plan awesome? Nope. Did it help? Maybe. I wanted to try something out that could allow for something I've always wanted. It definitely didn't hurt.
I think this (VT claiming PR) is a cool idea that to my knowledge hasn't really been done. It'd be pretty hard (read: stupid) to do at this stage though. Would it be worth either trying to change our groupthink such that a false claim isn't necessarily scum, or trying to work the possibility into the setup somehow?
I think it gives scum more opportunity than town.
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I was modding for Ash's plan, and I didn't really see the point of it. I think confusing town during lynches is a bigger downside than the upside of confusing town during nightkills.
Fakeclaiming PR as VT is a pretty good idea, if you think you can get away with it. I think it may be possible during a setup such as C9++ or JK9++ (or w/e it's called). That way, it's feasible that you could be that PR in town's eyes, and in scum's eyes, you are town so you aren't lying, and then you take the NK.
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I agree that the possibility of "there might be 2 of the same power role" - inherent in C9++ and JK9++ - gives a lot more room for a townie fakeclaim that won't immediately blow up.
However, the flip side is that it gives scum a lot more room as well! See both M-IV and M-XII, were scum fakeclaims lasted a really long time and were, I think, a key piece in keeping town off-balance enough for mafia to win both games.
It's part of why I really enjoy that sort of setup. And am working on a new one. Oh yes. ash and yuma know what's cookin'. ::)
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I really like the prospect of town fake-claims as well, but yeah it's stupid if you have a chance of blowing the real role's cover.
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TLDR: you can't always trust the source of the plan/theory talk.
This is exactly why I think theory talk can be used to help scumhunt.
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I was just thinking about making a thread like this myself! I think that plan's like ash's can't help town. if I was scum in that game, I would roll a virtual 7-sided die and if it was a 1, 2, or 3 I would "claim" cop. then I would look for clues on who was the cop, and then if there wasn't anything, I'd forget about it. town wouldn't accomplish anything, and I might have caught a VT-slip or Cop-slip.
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Re: town fakeclaims, go ahead, do it, just don't get lynched, and don't out the real PR(s).
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Re: town fakeclaims, go ahead, do it, just don't get lynched, and don't out the real PR(s).
You make this sound so easy
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Well, it was actually meant as a "don't do it" because you shouldn't do it unless achieving that IS easy, which it isn't at all in most cases.
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I was just thinking about making a thread like this myself! I think that plan's like ash's can't help town. if I was scum in that game, I would roll a virtual 7-sided die and if it was a 1, 2, or 3 I would "claim" cop. then I would look for clues on who was the cop, and then if there wasn't anything, I'd forget about it. town wouldn't accomplish anything, and I might have caught a VT-slip or Cop-slip.
Hurray! I'm thrilled people want to talk about these kinds of things outside the context of a game. I find them fascinating but in-game they get bogged down by alternate goals and trying to actually play the game itself.
Yeah, like a lot of things, I wouldn't be surprised if the ideal play is to make your decision randomly. I'd think, as scum, you might actually want to weigh your randomness against claiming though, to potentially put more pressure on the real doctor if he starts to worry that a third town won't join him on the claim, or that only VTs are claiming, whatever.
See I think what Ash was getting at, and what I somewhat agree with is that the value of this plan isn't really in the claiming itself, it's in our subconscious desire to weight cop-slips differently based on other things going on.
In this game, I really do think nkirbit's lynch of Sudgy was the right play, because investigating EFHW outed the scumteam, and I really was going back and forth on who to investigate, while I got the impression Sudgy would have been more confident in going for EFHW. They got unlucky.
And while we're on that topic, your telling me to investigate EFHW that day made it much harder for me to actually investigate her, since I was worried they'd kill her if she was town because of it, although in the end it probably contributed to Nkirbit's killing of Sudgy. I'm not sure whether that was a good idea or not.
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In that format, and most blitz formats, having confirmed town alive is awful for scum. Just awful. I think scum's #1 priority needed to be killing Ashersky, and then possibly counterclaiming any cop claim.
They would have been in alright shape if they killed Ashersky, but if they didn't NK you, it still would have been tough, since I think you would have won any argument against Jimmm or Nkirbit if they decided to counterclaim.
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What do people think is the most believable counterclaim for scum?
Is it claiming early, or claiming at L-1? Or refusing to claim altogether?
It really depends on the situation, but I guess in general, the correct answer is "try to do exactly what you'd do if you really were that role".
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It really depends on the situation, but I guess in general, the correct answer is "try to do exactly what you'd do if you really were that role".
You make this sound so easy
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That's something else that came up in that game: Ash asserted that the first claimant is usually the scum one, and I totally believe that for claims made at L-1, but what's the concensus on first claims when it happens mid-day or at the start of a day. I believe Ash said it was still true, but I'm not sure I see it. I'd think it could go both ways, depending on the personalities of the two players.
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That's something else that came up in that game: Ash asserted that the first claimant is usually the scum one, and I totally believe that for claims made at L-1, but what's the concensus on first claims when it happens mid-day or at the start of a day. I believe Ash said it was still true, but I'm not sure I see it. I'd think it could go both ways, depending on the personalities of the two players.
grumble grumble...
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The irony is that first claims in the games I've been playing have all been town, and scum have been the counterclaim.
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I mean, I think you have it backwards. An actual PR pushed to L-1 would be the first one, almost certainly. I think in terms of L-1 PR claims, I would usually want to go with my gut on what my read was.
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If we decide when the most believable time for scum to claim is, it becomes the least believable time for scum to claim...
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Getting dangerously close to talking about ongoing games, people. in general though, the one who counterclaims is usually town. this is because scum usually don't have a good reason to counterclaim, even if the other player will be lynched.
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I would also note some of us may use this thread to build up further metas for use in future games.
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Getting dangerously close to talking about ongoing games, people. in general though, the one who counterclaims is usually town. this is because scum usually don't have a good reason to counterclaim, even if the other player will be lynched.
Well, it depends on the situation, the parity, and the numbers left. If it's close to end game (generally D3 or later), and there's multiple scum left, counterclaiming can be a pretty good idea. Especially if you're counterclaiming a cop with town results, for example. Say there's a cop, D3, who has mod-confirmation that two players are town. D3, in a 13 player game, that's generally 9 players alive. Having 1/3 of the players be ICs is huge, and really bad for scum. If they think they can convince town to lynch the cop, then they'll only have one IC left on D4 (they'll kill the other one), and none on D5.
If you don't counterclaim the cop, though, you have to kill the cop N3 (or maybe there's a doctor, or something, alive?) Or maybe you just roleblock him, and kill an IC, but regardless, you have 2 ICs left on D4, which would be huge, with 7 players left alive.
Unchallenged cop claims PoE the heck out of scum, to the point where they can almost be a 50% of catching scum randomly. Scum has much more incentive to counterclaim cop.
It's different based on the role, though. Scum should really never ever counterclaim Doctor, obviously. Just kill him the next night.
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I would also note some of us may use this thread to build up further metas for use in future games.
Maybe, but it's nice to be able to talk about theory in a thread where you know everyone's intentions are (mostly) pure!
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If we decide when the most believable time for scum to claim is, it becomes the least believable time for scum to claim...
I mean, that's true with anything we discuss in this thread, but it's also true with any game we play, anything we discuss in a game that turn out right or wrong, etc. That doesn't mean the conversation isn't worth having, both to get people thinking about these things (which I believe can help all of us play better whatever team we end up on) but because often there is some ideal, some equilibrium strategy assuming both players have thought things all the way through.
And often that will involve some randomization, but weighted, not just straight random.
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I would also note some of us may use this thread to build up further metas for use in future games.
Maybe, but it's nice to be able to talk about theory in a thread where you know everyone's intentions are (mostly) pure!
I agree...or do I? :)
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TA, you should send us all VT PMs for this thread :P
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I mean, yeah this fits into meta's but you'd better believe that anyone thinking about the things in this thread is also going to be thinking about their own meta as scum.
If I suddenly start pushing town not to even consider analysing the setup and making arguments that anyone pushing a claim-plan is scum, well that would be a pretty odd-looking scum game for me wouldn't it? I know we're putting positions out there with this discussion, but we do that every game (particularly after the game is over and our flip can be examined) and certain arguments that might make perfect sense coming from one player might rightfully raise eyebrows coming from me, whether we talk about it in this thread or not.
And I think that's true for everyone, in one direction or another.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.co/instances/600x/31021317.jpg)
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Re: town fakeclaims, go ahead, do it, just don't get lynched, and don't out the real PR(s).
Verrrrry dangerous territory.
TLDR: you can't always trust the source of the plan/theory talk.
This is exactly why I think theory talk can be used to help scumhunt.
I disagree. Always will. Theory talk does NOT help scumhunt.
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What about Innovation? I really wanted town to claim items (not roles, and not the revolvers). We could have swamped scum with so much info and opportunities that even if they killed one person overnight, several others could have gotten powers. They can only kill one person at a time.
I feel like people were too scared of sharing information and lost good opportunities.
I'm thinking of making an RMM game like Innovation, but where the items and their owners are public.
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But I put in a drawback if a massclaim like that happened: The Theif power. Mafia can talk over what item they need then take that item from whoever has it. It was designed to have a prisoners dilemma of information, but is their a balance between the two?
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As it turned out, they had no trouble finding the items they wanted anyway - didn't they steal ash's revolvers? I suppose that was town's bad luck that they found them. I think I'd leave out the thief power, anyway, and make them have to talk people into sending them the items they want.
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As it turned out, they had no trouble finding the items they wanted anyway - didn't they steal ash's revolvers? I suppose that was town's bad luck that they found them. I think I'd leave out the thief power, anyway, and make them have to talk people into sending them the items they want.
Yeah. Including ashersky's Vigilante power was a mistake, but I don't regret the Theif power. But I'd be highly interested in helping you create/play Innovation II.
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I think the fact that thief gave EVERYBODY on the scumteam an item really hurt. Maybe they can have one of each (thief/kill), and thief only gives 1 copy of the item (to whomever performed the thief action)?
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I think the fact that thief gave EVERYBODY on the scumteam an item really hurt. Maybe they can have one of each (thief/kill), and thief only gives 1 copy of the item (to whomever performed the thief action)?
Yeah, that's how it originally was.
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As it turned out, they had no trouble finding the items they wanted anyway - didn't they steal ash's revolvers? I suppose that was town's bad luck that they found them. I think I'd leave out the thief power, anyway, and make them have to talk people into sending them the items they want.
We got lucky with Ashersky's revolvers, but if we had massclaimed and then taken Paper from Chairs to get doublevotes, we would have been able to consistently doublevote to get us out of lynches. So massclaiming would have been great for scum.
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Another issue is that there aren't really enough nights to take advantage of the many combinations items can make, and not much time to get multi-item powers and still get use from them.
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Another issue is that there aren't really enough nights to take advantage of the many combinations items can make, and not much time to get multi-item powers and still get use from them.
Yeah. Another reason to take out the Vig. I wanted to have a longer game, but I didn't want it to turn into BMX Part 2.
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Another issue is that there aren't really enough nights to take advantage of the many combinations items can make, and not much time to get multi-item powers and still get use from them.
Yeah. Another reason to take out the Vig. I wanted to have a longer game, but I didn't want it to turn into BMX Part 2.
I'd take out the Double Voting, too. Too strong for scum.
If you want more items usage, don't limit the number that can be used by players at night, and make them significantly weaker.
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But there was no limit to use them!
The Doublevoter was a last minute thing when I was thinking of different powers not in the game, Doublevoter ended up being one of them. Straightup paper is fairly thematic, so I went with that. But with chairs claiming it really helped scum.
Are we going to discuss HP now?
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We can.
I liked the set-up, but you are right that it needs a bit of tweaking. I'd like to see how it runs with a normal pre-night phase for mafia to talk.
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I think if mafia had had N0 chat, I would have advised my house to have total radio silence N0. I'm not sure, though.
I wonder if scum at all played differently due to stuff they learned in the house chat. Can any of them speak to that?
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Yeah, I'd like for N0 chat. The Vote Fixer is also nearly useless, I think, so I'd rather have that swapped out.
I also feel like the House Votes are almost useless. I mean, I know we used them this game. But that was only to speed up the endgame.
(And I didn't ask if we can talk about HP to sound all defensive for talking about Innovation. I just figured people would want to talk about it since it just ended)
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I think, as a PR, Vote Fixer is pretty weak. But, having named VTs is pretty great, as well. I agreed with the plan that Vote Fixer should have claimed D1, if Galz hadn't claimed.
It's always a tough decision for scum to shoot for a IC with no night power / trying to hunt for cops. The addition of the tracker/watcher meant that if Vote Fixer had claimed, there's one of two options. Either scum counterclaims (they wouldn't), and it's a 1-for-1 trade, which is great for town for a PR without much utility. Or there's an IC, which town is afraid to kill while the tracker/watcher is alive.
Even though the role itself is weak, the fact that it's a named townie is huge, especially with the presence of a watcher. So I'm not sure that the role actually needs to be improved. It has a ton of utility, just not in the same a cop has utility. Having ICs left alive is really, really strong.
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I think, as a PR, Vote Fixer is pretty weak. But, having named VTs is pretty great, as well. I agreed with the plan that Vote Fixer should have claimed D1, if Galz hadn't claimed.
It's always a tough decision for scum to shoot for a IC with no night power / trying to hunt for cops. The addition of the tracker/watcher meant that if Vote Fixer had claimed, there's one of two options. Either scum counterclaims (they wouldn't), and it's a 1-for-1 trade, which is great for town for a PR without much utility. Or there's an IC, which town is afraid to kill while the tracker/watcher is alive.
Even though the role itself is weak, the fact that it's a named townie is huge, especially with the presence of a watcher. So I'm not sure that the role actually needs to be improved. It has a ton of utility, just not in the same a cop has utility. Having ICs left alive is really, really strong.
But, well, just have a Tree Stump. Or an actual IC.
Having a Town "PR" that isn't worth counterclaiming is exactly what the IC is, only mod-confirmed.
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I think, as a PR, Vote Fixer is pretty weak. But, having named VTs is pretty great, as well. I agreed with the plan that Vote Fixer should have claimed D1, if Galz hadn't claimed.
It's always a tough decision for scum to shoot for a IC with no night power / trying to hunt for cops. The addition of the tracker/watcher meant that if Vote Fixer had claimed, there's one of two options. Either scum counterclaims (they wouldn't), and it's a 1-for-1 trade, which is great for town for a PR without much utility. Or there's an IC, which town is afraid to kill while the tracker/watcher is alive.
Even though the role itself is weak, the fact that it's a named townie is huge, especially with the presence of a watcher. So I'm not sure that the role actually needs to be improved. It has a ton of utility, just not in the same a cop has utility. Having ICs left alive is really, really strong.
But, well, just have a Tree Stump. Or an actual IC.
Having a Town "PR" that isn't worth counterclaiming is exactly what the IC is, only mod-confirmed.
Exactly. I'd rather it be a straight up IC instead of a IC that can be counterclaimed, and is argued about whether it should show itself or not (which it should, I agree), and has a very minor bonus. A bit more 'streamlined' that way.
The Watcher/Tracker thing was interesting. But what if it was changed to Watcher OR Tracker. So take out the fake result element, and make it so each night it's one of the two with a 50% of it being one or the other.
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I suppose that's true.
Town already has two really strong PRs though. That makes up for the fact that there's one less towny, but the ability for the role to be counterclaimed helps scum, which probably helps balance the game.
I think the house votes worked best as Nkirbit pointed them out. They're there as insurance for the watcher/tracker results. Lynch one, house vote the other, you're guaranteed to catch scum.
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Eh yeah.
There could just not be a Doctor or a Roleblocker.
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I wonder if scum at all played differently due to stuff they learned in the house chat. Can any of them speak to that?
I think from memory you gave me an idea which I suggested but we didn't end up doing.
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Eh yeah.
There could just not be a Doctor or a Roleblocker.
Why did I write 'or a Roleblocker'.
a Doctor and not a Roleblocker.
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But, well, just have a Tree Stump. Or an actual IC.
Having a Town "PR" that isn't worth counterclaiming is exactly what the IC is, only mod-confirmed.
The reason for adding the fixer power was in case the Houses became controlled by scum. It wasn't needed in this game, but was there for balance should that happen.
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Eh yeah.
But since there is almost no reason to not claim what house you're in at the beginning of the game, and since house votes are public, you'll be able to see which houses, and their members, aren't goin with what the Town wants.
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I wish my "we'll houseclaim D2" plan had gone off. It would've let us cast a little doubt on the Gryffindors.
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Also if I hadn't been the D1 lynch I think I would've gone for UoS as the N1 NK - this kind of setup is really his bag.