Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: StrongRhino on April 13, 2013, 11:17:23 pm
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I know TR-Treasure Map doesn't work, but would a TR on a Treasure Map with two other Treasure Maps in your hand work?
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Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."
You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand. You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds. Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand. However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.
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For the same reason you cant trash a Mining Village twice. Or Embargo. Or Pillage. Or any self-trashers.
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Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."
You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand. You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds. Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand. However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.
Lose track has nothing to do with it. It's just that you can only trash a single TM once.
No card ever loses track of itself I think, lose track only happens when cards can't find other cards.
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Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."
You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand. You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds. Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand. However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.
Lose track has nothing to do with it. It's just that you can only trash a single TM once.
But isn't the reason for that because of the lose track rule? I would think this would be the point. I could well be wrong here.
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You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.
If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.
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You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.
If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.
I *think* that's right... but I also seem to remember last month I mentioned that a card can never lose track of itself, and someone provided an example that proves that wrong. But with any of the "trash this; if you do" cards, I believe the reason you can't Throne them isn't lose track, it's simply that the definition of "trash" is to move a card from some non-trash location into the trash pile. A card in the trash can never be "trashed" because it already is "trash."
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You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.
If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.
I *think* that's right... but I also seem to remember last month I mentioned that a card can never lose track of itself, and someone provided an example that proves that wrong. But with any of the "trash this; if you do" cards, I believe the reason you can't Throne them isn't lose track, it's simply that the definition of "trash" is to move a card from some non-trash location into the trash pile. A card in the trash can never be "trashed" because it already is "trash."
A card never loses track of itself due to movement it directly caused. It can certainly lose track of itself if some external force moves it before it's done resolving itself.
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For the same reason you cant trash a Mining Village twice. Or Embargo. Or Pillage. Or any self-trashers.
Mining Village is a good example. Embargo and Pillage are not. The reason Mining Village fits is that trashing the card is conditional to recieving the +2$, just as trashing TM itself is for gaining the Golds. Throning Embargo doesn't change the amount of Coin or Embargo Tokens given out, even though the card isn't trashed on second play. Pillage is the same (though usually the attack won't have an effect the second time).
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.
I know TR-Treasure Map doesn't work, but would a TR on a Treasure Map with two other Treasure Maps in your hand work?
Treasure Map requires you trash two copies each time, then "If you do, gain 4 Golds etc... You TR it. It says to trash it, so you do, then trash a second copy, so you do. You then gain 4 Golds because you trashed the Treasure Map from play and the one in your hand. The second time you cannot trash the Treasure Map that was in play because it is already trashed. However, you MUST trash the second Treasure map that was in your hand, because the card says you must. You do not get another 4 Golds though, so really you wouldn't want to TR the initial Treasure Map.
Summary: It has to do with the "If you do" part of the card. Look at Madman. You can't TR it and I believe it even says that in the rule book.
"Nothing will prevent you from returning Madman to the Madman pile, but you may fail due to playing Madman via Procession, Throne Room, or King's Court. So, for example, if you Procession a Madman, you get +2Actions, return madman to the madman pile, draw a card per card in your hand, get another +2Actions, fail to return Madman to the Madman pile and so not draw cards a second time..."
You fail to trash Treasure Map a second time, so you may not get the second 4 Golds.
I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.
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I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.
I think the question here is why can't you trash cards that are already in the trash?". When you e.g. also can play cards that are already in play. And that's where the answer from most is "lose track"
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.
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I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.
I think the question here is why can't you trash cards that are already in the trash?". When you e.g. also can play cards that are already in play. And that's where the answer from most is "lose track"
I think the "trash" action is defined as: "move a card from [specified location] to the trash", where the location is always from play (e.g. Treasure Map, Mint), from hand (e.g. Chapel) or from a deck (e.g. Lookout, Saboteur). If a card is already in a trash, as on the second play of TMap via TR, then you cannot move it from the location to the trash. You cannot trash a trashed card. But TR lets you play a played card a second time.
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled.
Losing track comes up with Possession, though. If it's a Possession turn, here's what happens:
Play Throne Room
...Play Mining Village once
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Trash the Mining Village
.........Possession sets aside the Mining Village
......Get +$2
...Play Mining Village a second time
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Try to trash the Mining Village, but fail—not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession
......Don't get +$2
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So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?
It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled.
Losing track comes up with Possession, though. If it's a Possession turn, here's what happens:
Play Throne Room
...Play Mining Village once
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Trash the Mining Village
.........Possession sets aside the Mining Village
......Get +$2
...Play Mining Village a second time
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Try to trash the Mining Village, but fail—not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession
......Don't get +$2
Yes this is true. The Lose Track rule happens with specific card interactions. I was just talking about normal playing of cards that say "Trash this. If you do..."
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The lose-track rule kind of has to do with why you can't trash a self-trasher twice, even though in normal circumstances nobody needs to think about this quite so technically. It's easier just to say "you can't trash it because it's already in the trash". That's true anyway, but it's not the whole truth.
First of all "trashing" is defined as moving a card to trash, so when a card is already in the trash, it can't be trashed. But the reason a self-trasher stays in the trash, is lose-track. This first came up when people asked exactly why you couldn't trash Mining Village twice with Throne Room, and in fact it's the first time Donald explained the lose-track rule, which he realized was needed even for just those two cards, but he hadn't caught it when making the Intrigue rulebook.
Throne Room + Mining Village. Throne Room tells you to play the MV, which entails moving it from your hand to your play area. Then you get +2 Actions, trash it, and get +2 Coins. Then TR tells you to play it again, which means to move it to your play area from where it's expected to be. It's expected to already be in play, but something else moved it in the meantime, so it's not there and so can't be moved to your play area. Without the lose-track rule, TR would move MV back to play, and then MV could be trashed again.
The same is true of Throne Room + Treasure Map.
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Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?
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As for the idea that the Mining Village can't be trashed a second time because it lost track of itself, I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.
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Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?
The point is just that Throne Room says to play it a second time, and part of playing a card is putting it into the play area.
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As for the idea that the Mining Village can't be trashed a second time because it lost track of itself, I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.
Not true; Mining Village loses track of itself in the case of the Throne Room / Mining Village / Possession combo. In that case, MV tries to trash itself a second time but it can't, not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's been moved by Possession to someplace other than where it expects itself to be.
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I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.
It is possible. So long as something other than the card itself caused it to move.
Play three differently named action cards, and then play Counterfeit on a Horn of Plenty. On the first play of Horn of Plenty, gain a Mandarin. Mandarin's on-gain effect top decks your Horn of Plenty and Counterfeit. Now Counterfeit plays your Horn of Plenty again (but can't put it in play by Lose Track). This time gain an Estate. Horn of Plenty now tries to trash itself since it gained a Victory card, but it has lost track of itself, and can't. Oh, and then Counterfeit fails to trash the Horn of Plenty too.
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It would work if Treasure Map read:
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Trash this.
You may trash a Treasure Map from your hand. If you do gain 4 gold.
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Another thought:
Treasure Map has the Throne Room wording problem. It's an edge case, but imagine if you played a Treasure Map, had a TM in hand, but for some reason didn't want to trash the in-hand TM. (Easy enough to make up some story as to why).
It has the problem that a player could cheat and there is no way to verify.
Ideally it should have the wording above, or it should end with, "...or reveal a hand with no Treasure Maps"
Ed
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Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?
It's weird to think about, yeah. Normally, TR tries to move the card from play to play the second time. Of course it doesn't work, not because of lose-track, but because it's already there. Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.
Anyway, playing a card means moving it to play, but it means other stuff too. If your proposed card text for TR were the actual text, it would never actually tell you to play the card. So if you Throned Witch, no Moat could be revealed since no Attack card was played.
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Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?
Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.
Hmm. I suppose that this card would lose track of Fortress. Also, would it lose track of a self trasher like Feast? Feast will have moved itself, so Theoretical card can't trash it. But then Theoretical card would fail to find Feast in the trash to replay, right?
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I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.
So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?
Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.
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I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.
So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?
Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.
Throne Room locks in on the card, but if playing the card a second time requires it to be moved somewhere and it's not where it's supposed to be, lose-track becomes relevant. Lose-track comes up more often for Procession because Procession moves a card twice (from hand to play and from play to trash), so there are more opportunities for it to lose track.
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I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.
So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?
Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.
You're making the common mistake of mixing up what the lose-track rule actually means. It just means that a card can't be moved sometimes. It can still be played, no matter where it is. It's actually not that complicated if you think about it: For instance, Procession's last effect is to move the card from play to trash. Of course it fails to do that if the card isn't in play.
Throne Room locks in on the card, but if playing the card a second time requires it to be moved somewhere and it's not where it's supposed to be, lose-track becomes relevant.
Yes, but only moving the card will fail, nothing else. Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.
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Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.
Hmm. I suppose that this card would lose track of Fortress. Also, would it lose track of a self trasher like Feast? Feast will have moved itself, so Theoretical card can't trash it. But then Theoretical card would fail to find Feast in the trash to replay, right?
I have no idea actually. We're kind of in uncharted territory here. I thought about the same question with Mining Village, since it would actually make a difference. It could mean you could trash MV twice. So, TC (Theoretical card) would play MV, and then MV would trash itself for +$2. So then TC couldn't trash it, since it expects it to be in play and it's not there. Now TC plays MV again, and so tries to move it to play. But where does TC expect it to be? Normally in trash, but it couldn't trash it so it hasn't moved it to trash. In play then? It depends on whether a move instruction like this depend on a previous move instruction's success or failure. If it doesn't then it always will try to do these three steps: Move from hand to play, move from play to trash, move from trash to play. In that case you could trash MV twice, I think? Or maybe TC couldn't find it in trash anyway because it didn't put it there itself?
I'm pretty sure that no card exists that presents this problem. It would need at least two movement instructions, where the first one fails because the card has moved, but the place it moved to is where it normally would have moved anyway. I expect that no such card will ever be made either.
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Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.
A card can't lose track of itself, but another card can lose track of it if that other card tries to move it from somewhere that it isn't. Throne Room doesn't contain any instructions about moving cards, so Throne Room itself can't lose track of anything; well, there's the implicit instruction to move the Action card from your hand to the play area, but I'm not aware of any card that could move it away from your hand in between you choosing it and Throne Room putting it in play.
Throne Room/Feast works because even though Feast can't move itself to the trash a second time (it's already there; it didn't lose track of itself, but it's already there), the "gain a card costing up to 5" part is not contingent on trashing, there's no "if you do". Throne Room/Band of Misfits can't select a different card each time, because once the Band of Misfits is in play, it is the other card - let's say it's a Feast. So Throne Room plays a Feast twice, not Band of Misfits twice. After playing it once, the Feast is trashed, now it's in the trash and it's a Band of Misfits again... never mind, Throne Room was playing Feast twice, so it plays Feast again.
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Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.
A card can't lose track of itself,
Yes it can! We've given multiple examples.
Unless you want to be pedantic and point out that cards do not lose track of cards, but rather effects lose track of cards.
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Example: Feast
When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.
This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.
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Another classic example of a card losing track of itself:
Play Scheme and Hermit. Buy nothing. At the start of Clean-up, choose Hermit. When you discard Hermit, two effects are triggered simultaneously and you can choose the order in which they are resolved: Scheme wants to topdeck Hermit, and Hermit wants to trash itself. If you resolve Scheme first, then you will topdeck Hermit, and then Hermit will have lost track of itself and be unable to move itself to the trash. Either way you gain a Madman from the Madman pile.
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To be precise I guess we can say that a card's effect can't lose track of the card by its own doing. A footnote needs to be added to clarify that when you play a card multiple times, each time is like a fresh daisy -- the card's effect is like a new effect. Hence Feast's effect doesn't remember that it was trashed the previous time you played it.
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Example: Feast
When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.
This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.
You can only discard Market Square once anyway :P
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Example: Feast
When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.
This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.
You can only discard Market Square once anyway :P
If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.
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Example: Feast
When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.
This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.
You can only discard Market Square once anyway :P
If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.
I tried to get an edge case like this to work, the Market Square that you draw by trashing the Cultist can react to that very trashing.
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Example: Feast
When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.
This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.
You can only discard Market Square once anyway :P
If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.
I tried to get an edge case like this to work, the Market Square that you draw by trashing the Cultist can react to that very trashing.
Oh, boo.
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OK, so a card's effect can lose track of the card itself, I have been confusing myself rather a lot, then. DXV sez "if card A wants to move card B but it's not where card A expects it to be" which seemed to imply that they were two different cards; he did also say, don't quote him on that, though. I guess the actual rule would be the one from the rulebook, funny, eh?
Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.
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Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.
It's both! See the example with Possession, Throne Room and Mining Village given by AJD earlier in the thread. MV tries to move itself to trash, but can't. To quote: "not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession"
And no, Throne Room can lose track of a card, because the card is not in play. It's been explained in this thread.
So: Cards will always be moved to play when they are played. Cards will always be moved to trash when they are trashed. But this can't happen if either (1) the card is already there, or (2) the card is not where it's expected to be. (And (1) will never be true without (2) also being true, because no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is by default. Edit: Throne Room and its ilk make only (1) happen.)
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Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.
It's both! See the example with Possession, Throne Room and Mining Village given by AJD earlier in the thread. MV tries to move itself to trash, but can't. To quote: "not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession"
And no, Throne Room can lose track of a card, because the card is not in play. It's been explained in this thread.
So: Cards will always be moved to play when they are played. Cards will always be move to trash when they are trashed. But this can't happen if either (1) the card is already there, or (2) the card is not where it's expected to be. (And (1) will never be true without (2) also being true, because no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is by default.)
I don't think cards are always moved to play when they are played.... when you Throne Room a Feast, the second time it is played, it's played from the Trash, and never moves from the Trash.
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I don't think cards are always moved to play when they are played.... when you Throne Room a Feast, the second time it is played, it's played from the Trash, and never moves from the Trash.
Because (2) is true. Throne Room lost track of it. What I meant was it always happens except when (1) or (2) is true.
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Cards will always be moved to play when they are played.
no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is
Actually, Throne Room tells you to play a card twice, so if you throne room a festival, according to your definition of "play", the throne room will move the festival to play the second time, hence according to you, Throne Room is stupid enough ;) (and I'm quite sure Throne Room hasn't lost track of festival, it is where Throne Room expects it to be, in play where he just moved it)
But this is about the very definitions of "move" and "play". It's not really important if Throne Room moves a festival from play to play, or if Throne Room does not move the festival the second time it plays it.
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Actually, Throne Room tells you to play a card twice, so if you throne room a festival, according to your definition of "play", the throne room will move the festival to play the second time, hence according to you, Throne Room is stupid enough ;) (and I'm quite sure Throne Room hasn't lost track of festival, it is where Throne Room expects it to be, in play where he just moved it)
Heh, you're right of course. Throne Room does indeed tell you to play a card that has already been played. I'm pretty sure it must be the only one (except KC, Procession and Counterfeit, which do the same thing). It's because playing a card does more than move it to play, so playing a card in play does something. Trashing and discarding is just movement.
Btw, it's not just my definition of play, it's in the rulebook, and the examples with TR, MV, Possession etc given in this thread are from Donald originally.