Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: TheMathProf on February 07, 2013, 09:00:10 am
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The question was inspired by a game I played last night (I won, but I was fairly surprised by this) that featured this particular board where my opponent going first opened 5/2 and I opened 3/4:
$P Vineyard
$2 Lighthouse
$2P University
$3 Trade Route, Village
$4 Feast, Nomad Camp
$5 Ill-Gotten Gains, Minion, Mountebank
Is there a clearly dominant strategy on this board?
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I'm almost sure that Mountebank/Lighthouse is the way to go... then get a Potion and a Trade Route, get as many Universities as possible, using them to pick up Minions and another Mountebank. Use Trade Route to trash Coppers and Estates and Curses. Then get Vineyards.
Because Lighthouse exists, it's possible that opening IGG is better than Mountebank though... but I'd lean towards Mountebank.
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The longer I look at it the more interesting it gets...
I think it's very reactionary. If you're opponent goes MB, you will need a couple of Lighthouses to mitigate the damage. If he spams IGG's, outracing them with Trade Route isn't very efficient. Still you can scramble something together with Vineyards and University if he does.
I think Vineyards is probably dominant, but there are a couple of ways to start and a couple of ways to end.
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Depending on how lucky your opponent gets with Lighthouses being in play, I think that my strategy would beat an IGG rush because you would be giving him some Curses (of course the Coppers don't hurt him if he's going pure IGG), but I think it's enough to keep up with him on the VP. You wouldn't be able to get a lot of points from Vineyards if he does, but you should be able to get a couple Provinces and keep up with the Duchies.
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To my knowledge, an IGG rush could have real problems with Mountebank on the board, simply because the curse pile will run out faster than the IGG pile. As a result, to go for the three pile Duchy rush, you will have to buy the terrible IGG card without the benefit of the on-gain curses. (This information I basically lifted from here (http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/02/06/hinterlands-ill-gotten-gains/).)
With that in mind, I like GendoIkari's strategy a lot. I have a question though: wouldn't it make sense to go for vineyards if you already have the potion for the university anyway? Especially as the Duchy rush is going to be slower for the IGG player?
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Uni-Vineyards is obviously a good combo and is probably the best strategy on this board. I'd open lighthouse/mountebank and then go for universities. Minions help the vineyards strategy and are key to this board a lot. If he goes for an IGG rush, it's going to be difficult for him to hit 5 consistently for duchies if he only has 4 cards each turn. I'd only buy one mountebank, as you're only looking to give him 2-3 curses against an IGG rush and the extra coppers might just help him. I'd look to get a potion on turn 3 or 4, even if you hit $5. It's going to be easy to build up points for the vineyards, as a stack of minions means you'll likely be able to play your universities every turn. Villages help when minions run out, as you might want the extra action for a trade route. I'd get another potion the second time you hit $4. Otherwise, just buy minions, a trade route, or villages. I don't think IGG has the steam to consistently buy duchies when you can tip the curse split just a bit and attack with minions every turn.
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In my experience, the presence of cursers does not have nearly as large of an effect on the IGG rush as most think.
That said, I think that MB/LH is than way to open, sliding into UV/VY, and snagging a few duchies.
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Building an engine against IGGs isn't always terrible, since the IGG player can't end the game that fast on his own. He needs to hit $5 18 times to do so. So you have a fair number of turns. Of course, if you're not attacking him, hitting $5 18 times doesn't really take that long, and trying to build an engine with constant Curses streaming into your deck isn't the fastest thing in the world.
Now in this particular kingdom there are attacks, but there's also Lighthouse. So on all the non-$5 turns, the IGG player is taking Lighthouses, and you're not going to have the easiest time in the world attacking him. Additionally, the only trashing you can get is Trade Route, and the only cycling is Minion, which can run into rough times if you have too much junk in your deck, since it's just blind-drawing 4-card hands. Still if your only goal is to play as many Unis as possible and land on a Potion to buy a Vineyard there is some hope. I'd lean toward IGG, though.
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This is a very, very interesting set for a 5/2 vs. a 3/4. As the 5/2 person, I am very tempted to go the IGG route. Nomad Camp is pretty good for you, and those curses are actually going to really delay your opponent if he goes engine, since he can't defend or efficiently trash them. And University tends to run slower than you expect.
Of course Minions and Vineyards are eventually going to do wonders for Mr. University. The 5/2 person might want to prefer Silver instead of Lighthouse and actually get a Potion himself to chase Vineyards.
I'm reasonably confident that Mountebank is really bad here for either player though, because Lighthouse is going to be desirable in its own right.
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For the engine player there is a lot of good stuff going on, assume they go mass Village/Minion/Lighthouse/TR/University/NC for disappearing money and new 4-card hands. Lighthouse will provide defense from Minion/Mountebank. If the opponent is going for IGG, just throw them a few curses yourself with Mountebank and make them pick up the last IGG's with no attack portion. Then to win, you can pick up Vineyards and University=>Feast=>Duchy.
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It's very interesting how divided opinion is on this board. It is a fascinating one. Anyone tried testing anything yet?
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It's very interesting how divided opinion is on this board. It is a fascinating one. Anyone tried testing anything yet?
I tried it without thinking too much about anything strategic, especially from the IGG player, just to see how fast the University player could get going, and it looks like it's fast enough:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/07/game-20130207-123819-4c1ac659.html
EDIT: There is definitely some stuff to worry about though, like how many Minions you can get before you have to worry about piles.
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As the 4/3 player, I ended up playing it very similarly to how HiveMind ended up playing it in his simulation, with a few exceptions:
- I thought a Minion chain was going to be the only way to get around ninety percent of the crud sitting in my deck.
- Vineyards didn't really occur to me until significantly later in the game as a viable option (I was concerned they were going to keep a Minion chain from forming), and so I didn't end up buying my first one until Turn 18.
- Mountebank occurred to me, but I didn't end up hitting 5 or a University until Turn 6, by which time I already had 3 curses. My thought was my deck was so full that I'd maybe get one or two of these off, and that I needed the deck-cycling sooner, so I cringed and went Minion. (HiveMind's simulation also has the University/5 hit for the first time on Turn 6, and with the Mountebank buy, indeed, the opponent ended up with one curse at the end.)
- I bought Trade Route with 3 on both Turns 1 and 4, anticipating some Minion cycle (with the University for +Actions). I'm not sure whether the second Trade Route so early was right, and admittedly, I got lucky to pull TR,E,Copperx2,Potion on Turn 3 (which I think is one of the best draws I could have gotten), which might have made it more viable.
I have to admit that my gut instinct was that the Turn 1 IGG was the stronger open possibility, but that the Turn 1 Mountebank is starting to look stronger to me in hindsight.
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5/2? Lighthouse/IGG. In all likelihood you'll get a Curse into your opponent's deck before the first reshuffle, and that stings. The Lighthouse and IGG also make it quite likely you'll be able to pick a Mountebank if you wish after the first reshuffle. So I'd open with IGG, but not necessarily go for an IGG rush.
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Well, opening IGG and getting a Curse in before the reshuffle is fun, but there's the opportunity cost involved which is quite big.
If you open with Minion/Lighthouse or MB/Lighthouse, you're already well on your way for a Vineyards deck. If your opponent goes for University with Potion/TR he has the tempo delay of getting University first and Minion second while you can go for straight up Minions with Potion at the right time.
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It's very interesting how divided opinion is on this board. It is a fascinating one. Anyone tried testing anything yet?
I tried it without thinking too much about anything strategic, especially from the IGG player, just to see how fast the University player could get going, and it looks like it's fast enough:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/07/game-20130207-123819-4c1ac659.html
EDIT: There is definitely some stuff to worry about though, like how many Minions you can get before you have to worry about piles.
+1 for the BLACKstreet references/usernames.