Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: popsofctown on August 03, 2012, 07:09:40 pm
-
Ok, so, I've read on these boards, for the second time now, that the hand in the title of this thread is usually best played as Ambassador hitting copper. Then buying nothing, not even a 2$ card. And people are saying that like it's obvious to them and to everyone else and I feel like I'm wearing the Emperor's new clothes.
I have no understanding of this whatsoever, and have played virtually every one of these hands as Ambassador hitting Estate. Why would you do otherwise?
I wrote some analysis here and deleted most of it because it was confusing, but the comparison came to (after attack is considered) is 2 estates, and 2 non-cards of empty space, compared to a Silver and 3 coppers. Technically that is not a strictly better/worse comparison, but man I cannot wrap my mind around the estates being better, even for an engine because the engine needs to buy pieces. Like, maybe in NV Bridge, if Bridge costed 2$? Like really I don't get it.
At rank 36 I didn't think I could have disagreements with the community that seemed this massive. Someone convert me to this other world religion, please.
-
It's not about the buying power of your deck after the Ambassador play; it's about the size of your deck and how much more quickly you'll cycle back to the Ambassador afterwards.
Ambasssador is like, the snowballing card. You fall behind in an engine game, and you lose.
-
If you start to get ahead in the Ambassador war, you will pull ahead more and more. That's why it's important to get rid of cards to be able to play the Ambassadors more often.
-
If my opponent is trying to go without ambassador, I'll do the estate if there's an engine part at $3 I want.
But if we're playing ambassador tennis I want to hit my ambassador again sooner.
-
Another way to look at it is this. Let's say cycling isn't a factor. For some reason you can play an Ambassador every single turn, and your opponent can too. If you use the Ambassador to get rid of one card and give out one card, and then your opponent does the same, then you'll never win or lose that war. Because you'll just be trading cards back and forth.
However, if, while your opponent is getting rid of one and giving out one every turn, you are getting rid of TWO and giving out one every turn, eventually you will have a slim, non-junked-up deck, while your opponent is merely breaking even. You'll win the war and can then start buying powerful engine pieces or whatever is required to get rolling.
If you both get rid of two and give out one every turn, the Ambassador war still ends in a tie, but it does end, eventually, as you'll both wind up with lean decks.
What I'm getting at is that, assuming you can play your Ambassador with equal frequency as your opponent, you can't win an Ambassador war by only getting rid of one card every turn. You can only tie at best or lose it.
The reality, of course, is that you can't play Ambassador reliably every turn. You can't even guarantee you can play it as often as your opponent can, because things like missing the shuffle and Amb/Amb collisions can decrease your ability to play it. Those problems are out of your control, but you can control other things that would tend to increase the frequency with which you can play it, and that's deck size. Decrease your deck size, and you will tend to be able to play it more often. How might you do that? Returning two cards instead of one with Ambassador should do it!
In other words, returning two cards instead of one helps you along two separate dimensions, resulting in an exponential advantage to yourself: you double the progress you make toward winning the junking war, and you increase the frequency with which you may launch those junking attacks.
-
I prefer the Coppers just because then you have a better chance of matching up Amb with 2 estates later. If it's your only estate in deck, then yeah the estate might be better.
-
Another intuition to add is that in an Ambassador engine game, you want to get rid of all your starting cards eventually, and the best way of doing this is getting rid of them two at a time.
If it were somehow a big money game and you had the option to choose between trashing an Estate and getting a Silver or trashing 2 Coppers, you'd go with the Estate every time, since the Estate is more harmful to you that the Copper. However, in an Ambassador engine, Coppers are just as bad as Estates.
-
Why not open double ambassador is returning cards to the supply is so much more important than having money?
-
Why not open double ambassador is returning cards to the supply is so much more important than having money?
You usually should?
-
Ok
Sorry, that post would have made more sense with the earlier version of the OP I was going to post
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
Amb/Caravan, Amb/Tournament, or maybe Amb/Walled Village or Amb/Quarry. Basically whenever there is a $4 you want.
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
Amb/Caravan, Amb/Tournament, or maybe Amb/Walled Village or Amb/Quarry. Basically whenever there is a $4 you want.
Never really good to open Caravan. Also,just buy one after you reshuffle. Getting both Ambs early is important. Losing the Amb war is devestating.
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
Amb/Caravan, Amb/Tournament, or maybe Amb/Walled Village or Amb/Quarry. Basically whenever there is a $4 you want.
Never really good to open Caravan. Also,just buy one after you reshuffle. Getting both Ambs early is important. Losing the Amb war is devestating.
Ummmm. That's super wrong. Amb/Caravan is extremely good. Amb/Caravan is the second best Amb opening after tourney. http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
EDIT: OK maybe I should explain why it's so good. Basically, most non-terminals are going to be great anyway since they don't clog your deck. Also Caravans are at their best when you can stack them. The problem is that it actually takes a while to get a good caravan stack going. But with amb wars you have tons of time. Also since amb games favor engines so much, drawing extra cards to start your hand improves your engines consistency. If you can consistently start drawing your deck, you can consistently play amb and just steamroll.
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
Amb/Caravan, Amb/Tournament, or maybe Amb/Walled Village or Amb/Quarry. Basically whenever there is a $4 you want.
Never really good to open Caravan. Also,just buy one after you reshuffle. Getting both Ambs early is important. Losing the Amb war is devestating.
Ummmm. That's super wrong. Amb/Caravan is extremely good. Amb/Caravan is the second best Amb opening after tourney. http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
EDIT: OK maybe I should explain why it's so good. Basically, most non-terminals are going to be great anyway since they don't clog your deck. Also Caravans are at their best when you can stack them. The problem is that it actually takes a while to get a good caravan stack going. But with amb wars you have tons of time. Also since amb games favor engines so much, drawing extra cards to start your hand improves your engines consistency. If you can consistently start drawing your deck, you can consistently play amb and just steamroll.
Oh, wow, you're right. Wow, I should have put that together. Never post when you're tired.
*yawn*
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
Unless you open Double Amb. And if your deck would benefit from having two ambs, why not open double Amb?
Amb/Caravan, Amb/Tournament, or maybe Amb/Walled Village or Amb/Quarry. Basically whenever there is a $4 you want.
Never really good to open Caravan. Also,just buy one after you reshuffle. Getting both Ambs early is important. Losing the Amb war is devestating.
Ummmm. That's super wrong. Amb/Caravan is extremely good. Amb/Caravan is the second best Amb opening after tourney. http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
And the #7 opening overall.
-
I do the return-2-coppers thing, but I wonder if returning the Estate and buying another Ambassador would be better. Although your deck will temporarily be 1 card larger than otherwise, surely the extra Amb will make up for it?
The problem with doing this kind of thing is that you ideal Ambassador hand has exactly 2 copies of the card that you want to return. When you start introducing other terminal cards into the deck, your likelihood of Amb-2C or Amb-2E decreases, and the effectiveness of each Ambassador play also decreases.
-
This question is too complex to answer in isolation. (Hey, I didn't say "depends on the kingdom")
If we have some nice key $5 cards (quite likely) that actually help in the ambassador war (still quite likely) I would in fact get rid of the estate and buy a silver.
The dream card here is laboratory. But it could also be bazaar (espescially with some cheap draw like oracle/smithy) or the other way around a rabble (with some cheap village like... village)
With wishing well on the table, I'll always get rid of the estate and get it.
-
If you open ambassador/silver you can probably rely on a good next turn and return 2 coppers. If you open ambassador/ambassador you probably need to find some economy and buy the silver.
-
Two unrelated points:
1. One notable exception to the ACCCE rule is the ambassador/potion open with apothecary on the board, which is very strong, precisely because it allows you to give away the estate on a hand like this without compromising your chances of winning the ambassador war.
2. For what it's worth, I think the a/a opening is a little overrated - it's dangerous when there's a key five (although the definition of key five changes dramatically in an ambassador game - passing up a second ambassador so you can feast for a witch, e.g., is a terrible idea). But if you're opening single ambassador and your opponent is going double, that means it's even more important to return the pair of coppers with ACCCE.
-
Let's say cycling isn't a factor. For some reason you can play an Ambassador every single turn, and your opponent can too. If you use the Ambassador to get rid of one card and give out one card, and then your opponent does the same, then you'll never win or lose that war. Because you'll just be trading cards back and forth.
However, if, while your opponent is getting rid of one and giving out one every turn, you are getting rid of TWO and giving out one every turn, eventually you will have a slim, non-junked-up deck, while your opponent is merely breaking even. You'll win the war and can then start buying powerful engine pieces or whatever is required to get rolling.
If you both get rid of two and give out one every turn, the Ambassador war still ends in a tie, but it does end, eventually, as you'll both wind up with lean decks.
What's Ambassador strategy look like in 3-player games? In a three-player Ambassador game, at best everyone's going to break even, and if you stop being able to return two at a time everyone starts getting junked up. So in a 3+player game, I guess Ambassador's more like Witch—not so good at helping you create a power engine, more likely to lead to long sloggy games?
-
Now I'm just more confused. Should I open double Ambassador and buy Silver or open double ambassador and return coppers?
-
Yes. (Depending on the board)
-
Now I'm just more confused. Should I open double Ambassador and buy Silver or open double ambassador and return coppers?
In my opinion, if Ambassador is definitely the route to go (and it usually, but sometimes there's just no engine potential), you open double Ambassador and return as much of everything as fast as possible. You need to leave yourself enough Coppers to buy a Silver or Silver-equivalent Action, but that's all.
-
I'm actually a bit surprised at the comments here. I finally started winning with ambassador when I realized that you need to build a bit of economy while fighting the war. amb/silver does this, and then you are fine to start throwing coppers at your opponent. amb/amb is also fine but then you need to use one of the ambs on estates if they don't conflict. You need some economy by the end of the second reshuffle. You really do.
-
I'm actually a bit surprised at the comments here. I finally started winning with ambassador when I realized that you need to build a bit of economy while fighting the war. amb/silver does this, and then you are fine to start throwing coppers at your opponent. amb/amb is also fine but then you need to use one of the ambs on estates if they don't conflict. You need some economy by the end of the second reshuffle. You really do.
Well, yeah you need economy. But when you return 2 coppers instead of the estate, you're hoping to buy a silver or whatever on turn 4, which is quite likely. I mean, let's say you open amb/amb. And you get ACCCE on turn 3. The only way you don't get a silver on turn 4 is if you draw your other amb with 2 estates. But that's actually pretty good too since you can return 2 estates.
And if you draw ACCCE again on turn 4, return the estate this time and buy silver. Or if you get ACCCC return just 1 copper.
-
It also really really depends on what your opponent does. If he fights you in an Amb war, it is important to return double copper, to help win the war (plus you're likely to get coppers back later for economy). But if they aren't, the war is won, and it's a little more critical to get that economy rolling (and you can easily dump those coppers later).
-
@jonts, sure, but don't return double copper twice in a row. That's sort of the critical point, I didn't realize this for a long time and it really hurt my gameplay as a result.
-
Yeah, bear in mind that while you're "trashing" cards, you're getting cards given right back to you. Now, the best case scenario (which I just played today), is when your opponent ignores Ambassador. My opponent ignored Ambassador, but did get a couple Familiars, but I was able to just throw his Curses right back at him. Then Potions. By the end, I was throwing extra Silvers at him, as they were getting in the way of my Platinums. He couldn't do anything, and all because he didn't open Ambassador.