(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/chancellor.jpg) | #26 ▼1 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 24.07 ▼1.1 / Median: 25 ▼1 / Mode: 26 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 2.2 ▲0.7 Highest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #18 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (19x) With a very low deviation Chancellor is the worst $3 card this year. It's still a few outliners, but they can't let it get a better rank. Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently buyed great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it's only good for rare scenarios like Stash or Counting House. And if you want to get your recently buyed cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck like Royal Seal or Watchtower. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/develop.jpg) | #25 ▲1 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.49 ▲0.81 / Median: 25 =0 / Mode: 26 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.3 ▼0.8 Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #14 (1x), #15 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (23x) Develop is not last anymore, but still second last. I expected it higher, but there seem to be many players which even still think it's bad or still don't see the use of it. So it's still the card with the most last places. The significantly higher deviation shows the disagreement between the players. A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can be put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range. Because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are rare. It's good with good $5s and $7s like developing a Gold into a King's Court and a Wharf putting both on top of the deck. In the end of the game you want victory cards. So you can trash a $4 card for a Duchy and a Silver. But you have to put both cards on top of your deck. That is something you don't want if you're going for Provinces or Colonies. Developing a Silver in a Estate and Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty. So it often fails in being a good trasher, you have to see it as a gainer instead of a trasher. I think that's something many of us didn't see at the beginning and can explain it was rated better now. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/woodcutter.jpg) | #24 =0 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 22.01 ▲0.38 / Median: 22 ▲1 / Mode: 24 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 3.1 ▼0.1 Highest Rank(s): #12 (1x), #13 (1x), #14 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (11x), #26 (2x) Another card from the base set, but it went up a little bit. It got #24 14 times and even last twice. Its deviation is still low and shows the consensus on that card. It mostly worse than Silver as its only use is its +Buy. So, you only buy it if you really need that +Buy for setting up your engine and there's no other card that provides that. You can use it very well for a Gardens or Silk Road rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/fortune-teller.jpg) | #23 =0 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 21.03 ▲0.02 / Median: 22 =0 / Mode: 24 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.0 ▲0.2 Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #10 (1x), #12 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x) Fortune Teller is one of the worst attacks in the game and the first attack of all lists so far. And as it is an Attack Card, several players gave it a mid-level rank. That may explain its clearly higher deviation compared to the previous cards. Its mode still is bad, 12 times it got #24. In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel (with assistance of Inn, Young Witch or Vault) games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play two or more in one turn. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/workshop.jpg) | #22 =0 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 20.82 ▼0.24 / Median: 21.5 ▲0.5 / Mode: 23 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲0.1 Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #12 (1x), #14 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x) And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come. It is just a little bit higher than Fortune Teller, but that may result from a lot of players that seem to love it. It got #23 10 times. You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck. With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you at least get benefit and isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer (Envoy/Smithy). But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/greathall.jpg) | #21 ▼4 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 18.51 ▼1.76 / Median: 17 ▼0.5 / Mode: 17 ▼4 / Standard Deviation: 4.2 ▲0.3 Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (2x), #25 (1x), #26 (1x) Great Hall is the first card with a bigger change. I went down 4 ranks, even though the weighted average only went down less than 2 points and the median even only a half point. This and the big lead over Workshop foreshadow that the next cards are very close together. It was on #17 11 times. There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's an Estate that don't hurt your deck, so that's really nice. And you can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. And you often buy Estates in the end game, Estates you will may never see in your hand. In those cases it doesn't even matter if you pick up a Great Hall or an Estate. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/smugglers.jpg) | #20 =0 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 18.03 ▲0.06 / Median: 18 ▼0.5 / Mode: 13 ▲6 / Standard Deviation: 5.6 ▼1.3 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (7x) Smugglers lost no rank, but agreement. It's the card in this list with the highest deviation and therefore biggest disagreement. It has the third most last places as it got last 7 times. In the last list it was not even voted last a single time. On the other side there big outliers such a second place (!). In this big range it achieved a luckily good mode with 8 times on #13. Why this disagreement? With Smugglers the luck factor is high. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and mostly don't get better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy (especially with Duke) in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. King's Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/shantytown.jpg) | #19 =0 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.63 ▼0.32 / Median: 18 ▼0.5 / Mode: 21 ▼9 / Standard Deviation: 4.1 ▲0.3 Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (3x), #25 (1x) Shanty Town pretty much stayed were it was although its coincidentially high mode now got really low. It's the first card with no last place so far and has (one fifth place) a big outlier as well. It was on #21 9 times. Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually worse than Native Village for example. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. And even if you play basically Big Money, Shanty Town serves like a Laboratory for you. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/loan.jpg) | #18 ▼5 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 17.17 ▼2.95 / Median: 17 ▼4 / Mode: 20 ▼8 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▲0.9 Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (1x), #10 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (3x) Here is your first card from Prosperity. And wow, the biggest loser so far. 5 ranks and nearly 3 points is a big drop and it was even last three times. And the agreement in the rank of this card increased. It was voted on #20 8 times. You can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route early. And you don't need to trash a card from your hand, so you have still 4 cards in your hand you can play. But this is also a problem: That involves a luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good terminals at the same time). Also it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa. That you can't choose the card you want to trash, might be the reason many of you rank it lower than the last time. Sea Hag / Loan is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #92 of the best openings. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/traderoute.jpg) | #17 ▼3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 17.09 ▼1.71 / Median: 17 ▼2 / Mode: 20 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 4.1 ▲0.2 Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #7 (1x), #10 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (4x), #25 (1x) The next card from Prosperity and another loser and it was very close between those two cards. Nevertheless it's the second card with no last place and it's the first card so far which would've been on a different rank if the votes wouldn't have been weighted (#16). That means that experienced players rank it a little bit lower than unexperienced players. It was voted on #20 10 times. It's not a very good trasher as a opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game (beside the buy). It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. So, some of you may have ranked it as opener, the other players may have ranked it as strong card in the later game. But quality is more often defined how useful it is in the beginning, so it's no suprise that it lost 3 ranks. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/wishingwell.jpg) | #16 ▲2 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.75 ▲0.53 / Median: 17 ▲1 / Mode: 16 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▼0.3 Highest Rank(s): #9 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (3x) With the increase of only half a point Wishing Well benefits from the drop of the two Prosperity cards. As mentioned, it was voted lower from unexperienced players than from better players. 9 players ranked it on #16. Wishing Well is a very interesting card, but of course very luck-dependant. Ok, it can never hurt, but in most of the decks it's just a cantrip and you may have better bought a Silver. Another problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But with cards like Apothecary or Cartographer it works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. It's also a very good counter against Ghost Ship. Young Witch / Wishing Well is even better than Young Witch / Silver on #120 of the best openings. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/blackmarket.jpg) | #15 =0 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 15.95 ▼0.34 / Median: 16 ▼1 / Mode: 13 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▲0.1 Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (3x), #25 (1x) Here's your first promo with a very high spread of ranks. Like last time it was the card with the third highest deviation. It got #13 8 times. It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? Either you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/oasis.jpg) | #14 ▲2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.49 ▲0.86 / Median: 15 ▲0.5 / Mode: 15 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▼1 Highest Rank(s): #7 (2x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (1x), #25 (1x), #26 (1x) Oasis is a Hinterlands card and of course it went up like most of the Hinterlands cards so far. It went up nearly one point, but on the other side the disagreement got higher as shown by the significantly higher deviation. It was on #15 14 times and even last once. At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards, so it's no surprise that JaoT/Oasis on #152 is a little bit better as opener than simply JaoT/Silver. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/lookout.jpg) | #13 ▼2 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 14.76 ▼3.15 / Median: 14 ▼3 / Mode: 13 ▼5 / Standard Deviation: 4.5 =0 Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (1x), #26 (2x) We're now in the upper half, but the big gap is between #12 and #13, so here's another card. Lookout went down only 2 ranks, but with a drop of over 3 points, it's one of the biggest losers. It still has a high deviation and is the last card with a last place, no it got even 2 last places. It was 9 times on #13. The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #56 ▼25 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? More and more players seem to rank it that low because of that fear. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck. |
Well, Great Hall works with Hoard, Silk Roads, Ironworks, Crossroads, Tribute and to a lesser extent Scrying Pool, maybe that's enough to get it past Woodcutter?But Woodcutter works well with most engines, which is more common then those cases. Tribute, crossroads, and ironworks aren't good strategies in upon themselves. If you're going with those as a part of an engine, woodcutter will most likely be better.
I don't understand the Oasis hate. Its value is dependent on the board, just like most cards.It's not hate, I just don't think it's not usefull, or more usefull than Silver
If you want to build an engine where money would clog your deck, Oasis can be a godsend. It lets you keep your deck cycling a bit while still giving you enough money to buy engine parts.But it does it on a very small path. First, you are paying $3 for an addition of $1 to your deck. In a situation where you want to get most of your deck anyway, and prepare for large turns, that's not very good. Than, your handsize after playing Oasis decreased by one. Yes, you got to look 1 card further to find your engine parts, but that's all. Yes, with Libraries that's a completely different story, but still here. It's just $1. For $3 and a buy. Need lot's of them to get large turns with this.
If your deck is full of crap, Oasis can be good, but I don't think this is the best scenario. Yes, you can discard crap, but you may also draw crap.A silver and a crap card gives an average of $1/card. An Oasis that finds a crap card replaces itself and gives $1. The variance speaks for the Silver, the cycling speaks for the Oasis, the probability that you might draw it without crap speaks for the Silver.
If it's more of a BM-leaning game, silver might be preferable.QFT
Chocophile Benj, I didn't understand you exactly, but, outside of Chancellor Stash you only ever want one. I think of it as being 3.1$, because if you have no other way to use your terminal action point besides the likes of Fortune Teller or Woodcutter or Navigator, it's ability to improve your draws slightly means more money for your deck. In a race to a high cost card that's non terminal itself, that's invaluable - say Hunting Party stacking or Grand Market. If the high cost card is terminal, if it's powerful enough it could possibly still be worth it to use Chancellor to race there - Goons, no-trash cursers, Forge (just reforge your Chancellor).
I definitely think it is more powerful than Fortune Teller. Woodcutter is kind of apples and oranges to me because it's a Fool's Gold enabler and otherwise a card you pick up late for an engine that only has +buy available from Woodcutter. But Fortune Teller is a card that cycles your opponent's deck! I can't quite get it.
I wish I could have saved the results from the survey... as I forgot how I ranked the vast majority of the cards X_X
It blows my mind that someone rated Smugglers #2. That means someone actually ranked it above Masquerade or Ambassador, not to mention Menagerie, Warehouse, Tunnel, Swindler, Steward...wow :o
Question: Is Silver also on this list?
Would be fun to see where it sits.
I wish I could have saved the results from the survey... as I forgot how I ranked the vast majority of the cards X_X
I am hoping that once all of the lists are revealed, Qvist will release the personal lists of everyone who said it would be ok to make their information public. I too forgot what my ordering is, and would love to compare it to these lists!
sparky5859 : Not me !!! (In fact, I dont even know if my vote has been taken into account as I didn't finish rank the cards...)
Qvist, just curious, what is the mean/medium of isotropic ranking out of all the submission? Also, what do you think about making an additional list that only include the submission with rank above the mean/medium? I wonder would there be any significant difference from the current list...
Qvist - can you clarify exactly how these are weighted?
Well, Great Hall works with Hoard, Silk Roads, Ironworks, Crossroads, Tribute and to a lesser extent Scrying Pool, maybe that's enough to get it past Woodcutter?But Woodcutter works well with most engines, which is more common then those cases. Tribute, crossroads, and ironworks aren't good strategies in upon themselves. If you're going with those as a part of an engine, woodcutter will most likely be better.
This list is pretty close to my own (as I recall it) with no crazy outliers yet. Happy to see that Oracle got a bump, I considered it the most inaccurately-ranked card on the last $3 list. It's not top 5 material or anything, but it is much, much better as a $3 attack than Fortune Teller.
I think Black Market is fine where it is. Yeah, sometimes it is utterly awful and a total trap, but obviously other times it is essential. Surprised to see chwhite despise it so much given his love of Cornucopia, since many cards in that set (Fairgrounds, Menagerie, Horn of Plenty) make Black Market much more valuable regardless of its contents. Plus, there is that crazzzzyyy Tactician combo. Putting a card that swingy in roughly the middle of the list feels appropriate to me.
Smugglers' placement seems right to me too. The complaint that it is totally useless late-game when Provinces are being bought seems minor; I mean, look at Sea Hag. I see Smugglers as a good early pick up/defense for player 2 in a lot of games that would typically favor P1, especially games with discard attacks - say, a Militia game where you just can't ever catch up to $6, or a Ghost Ship game where you can sabotage your current under-attack hand without falling too far behind. Lots of other reasons it shouldn't be any lower IMO - Duchy-dancing, Grand Market, Highway/Bridge, etc...
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/oracle.jpg) | #12 ▲9 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 13.3 ▲5.03 / Median: 13.5 ▲6.5 / Mode: 10 ▲10 / Standard Deviation: 5.3 ▼0.5 Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (3x) What a big jump and it's of course a Hinterlands card! It went up 9 ranks with being ranked 5 ranks higher in average. The mode even went up 10 points (it was #10 8 times). It had a high deviation last time already, but after the big change it has an even higher one, the second highest deviation in this list. It was really underestimated and some still do. A 2 card-drawer with a spy-effect seems so innocent. But sometimes you even prefer it to Smithy which itself is a good $4 card. You can use it very well in Big Money games where the additional attack part comes handy. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - you do little damage with messing up the top cards. But discarding 2 cards to draw the next two helps cycling through your deck in the early game. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. And the luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he has in hand, but you don't know that. And if you choose to put them back on top, he may even choose the order, another help for him. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck, which is good in Big Money. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/village.jpg) | #11 ▲1 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 12.89 ▲1.21 / Median: 13 ▲0.5 / Mode: 13 ▲5 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲1.0 Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #19 (1x), #22 (1x), #23 (1x) That's the best $3 card from the base set. It was #13 10 times. Vanilla village is very hard to rank. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. It's no exciting card for sure, when there are all other engine components there you're glad to have it. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right? |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/watchtower.jpg) | #10 ▼2 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 11.27 ▼0.95 / Median: 11 ▼1 / Mode: 11 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 4.0 ▲0.2 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #3 (1x), #5 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #19 (3x), #21 (1x) We're in the Top 10 and Watchtower lost 2 ranks. It's in the nowhere with a big lead over Village, but still far behind #9. It's the second card with a second place and it was 11 times on #11. There are two Reaction cards for $3 and this time Watchtower loses. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Festival or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part from the second Watchtower for the card you buy. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/tunnel.jpg) | #9 =0 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 9.75 ▲0.57 / Median: 9.5 ▼0.5 / Mode: 8 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 4.5 ▼0.1 Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (1x), #3 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #24 (1x), #25 (1x) Tunnel stays on the same rank, but still won a few points. Its deviation is still very high, because it's the first card with a first place but it has still one vote on second last. Its mode went up a little bit with being on #8 10 times. Tunnels 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Cellar, Inn, Embassy and such. Young Witch / Tunnel is currently the 33rd ▼13 best opening. So Tunnel is one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnels can deplete, the Gold pile can too. But still it's very situational. If there's no action which can discard, Tunnel is nice in the late game if you miss $5, but no game changer. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/scheme.jpg) | #8 Scheme ▲2 (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 8.91 ▲2.08 / Median: 8 ▲3 / Mode: 8 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲1.5 Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #3 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #17 (2x), #19 (1x) So basically Scheme and Watchtower switched places. And here's the next Hinterlands card which got a big boost of 2 points. Median and Mode went up 3 points (it was on #8 10 times) too and the agreement on this card is much higher than last time. Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card and you eliminate the possibility of colliding. As Double Ambassador is already a strong opening, on those boards you really want to open Ambassador/Scheme and you can later use the Scheme to top deck another card if you want to, so it's no surprise that Ambassador/Scheme is on #43 of the best openings. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. Scrying Pool + Scheme is good, Golem + Scheme + strong attack is strong and King's Court + Scheme is just crazy. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy and you better buy a Silver. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/warehouse.jpg) | #7 ▼1 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 6.91 ▼0.69 / Median: 7 ▼1 / Mode: 7 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 2.1 ▲0.5 Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (2x), #12 (1x), #13 (1x) We're entering the Tier 1 cards now after a big gap of 2 points. Warehouse lost one rank, but has very low deviation with #13 as the worst rank. Its rank isn't surprising as it voted on #7 18 times. Warehouse is the better Cellar, it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack (Sea Hag / Warehouse is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #98) as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. It's also great if you want cards together that gain strength when they collide, like Fool's Gold or Treasure Map. Because you have one card less in hand after you played it, it synergizes with "draw up to" cards (JaoT/Warehouse is better than JaoT/Silver on #126) And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). It loses power on boards with discard attacks, but with cursing attacks it's great. It's a great addition to any deck which isn't a terminal draw Big Money deck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/swindler.jpg) | #6 ▲1 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 6.51 ▲0.78 / Median: 6 ▲1 / Mode: 6 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 3.4 ▲1.2 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #3 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (4x), #17 (1x), #25 (1x) As there's now way higher consensus on Swindler, it's now on #6 where it was voted 14 times. It still has two big outliers on #17 and #25. Swindler is the third $3 Attack and this time it is a good one. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses (Tournament + Swindler and Swindler + Chapel are both at around #100). Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. Maybe the outliers are punishing it too, for its high luck-dependant attack. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/steward.jpg) | #5 ▼1 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 6.40 ▼0.84 / Median: 6 =0 / Mode: 6 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 2.5 ▲0.3 Highest Rank(s): #3 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (1x), #14 (1x), #16 (1x) We're in the Top 5 and it was very close, but Steward has beaten Swindler, with the same Median and Mode (it was 12 times on #6). It loses still a rank and nearly one point too. The deviation decreases a little bit too. Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy" (even though it's the opening buy) Tournament / Steward is currently the best Steward opening at #40 ▲9. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/menagerie.jpg) | #4 ▲1 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.18 ▲0.5 / Median: 5 =0 / Mode: 4 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 2.8 =0 Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (2x), #19 (1x) Menagerie is the second card in this list that got first. It got a little boost compared to last time and even went up 1 rank with a solid lead over #5. It has one big outlier, but the consensus is really high with being on #4 18 times. Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it only hurts when you draw it dead, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing (to get rid of your Coppers) to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. I think it went up a rank because there are many cards in Hinterlands that let you discard or gain additional (different) cards for enabling your Menagerie. You definitely need luck to enable it, but you get different cards so fast and if you get rid of your Coppers, that's often the case. It isn't that good as opener of course, but still Remake / Menagerie is way better than Remake / Silver and the best Remake + X opening at #142. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/fishingvillage.jpg) | #3 =0 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 3.24 ▼0.25 / Median: 3 =0 / Mode: 3 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 1.5 =0 Highest Rank(s): #1 (7x) / Lowest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #10 (1x) We're in the Top 3 and there's no doubt about these cards after a jump of nearly 2 points. All 3 cards have very low deviation, so has Fishing Village. It was voted on #3 32 times and was only voted #5 or lower 6 times. What makes Fishing Village a good village, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM, because then you have basically a Lighthouse if you don't use the +Actions. Fishing Village / Masquerade is currently the best opening on #55. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/masquerade.jpg) | #2 =0 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 2.21 ▲0.22 / Median: 2 =0 / Mode: 2 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 1.2 ▲0.3 Highest Rank(s): #1 (16x) / Lowest Rank(s): #5 (4x), #7 (1x) Masquerade lost again the battle for #1. It got a little boost, but it wasn't enough. It has the lowest deviation of all cards in this list, so no doubt here as it was only voted 7 times out of the Top 3 and 31 times on #2. At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, most of the times it feels like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. I still have problems to pass the cards in the right order if I play multiple Masquerades per turn :P but that doesn't decrease its power. It dominates nearly all games; it's great for simple Big Money and it's great in engines too and it's a defense against cursing what do you want more? And Tournament / Masquerade is #8 =0 in the best openings list. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/ambassador.jpg) | #1 =0 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 1.63 ▲0.57 / Median: 1 ▲1 / Mode: 1 =0 / Standard Deviation: 1.4 ▲0.5 Highest Rank(s): #1 (41x) / Lowest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (1x) Ambassador is the best $3 card and this time it wasn't even close, it was only voted 13 times not first or second and more than the half of all of you placed it first. I think it deserves the #1 spot. Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador is #3 =0, Caravan / Ambassador is #7 =0 and Spice Merchant / Ambassador #18 in the openings list with many other good Ambassador openings to come (Double-Ambassador is #61 ▼17 and the best double opening). |
Fishing villages : the best $3 for me, as it is a good buy in every game, far better than ambassador.It seems like you're putting what you enjoy above what is actually objectively best.
Masquerade : Very fun to play, but only in 2 players, and there are some games it isn't that interesting if you can trash by yourself. But if you've reducing handsize attacks, if you know before drawing two cards which one you'll pass... what's the matter ? No one ^^ deserves good rank, though !
Ambassador : Sorry to tell it, but I think it leads to boring games : "I return two estates, one gets to you" "thanks, here is another for you" etc... where are trashers, with those estates/coppers not disturbing anymore ? I'd rather buy steward/chapel !!! But it is truly a "strong" card...
Ambassador is much, much better than Fishing Village. Ambassador is very often better than Chapel, too. I've won a few games in the last couple days going for Ambassador against a Chapel-ing opponent. If there is a reasonably cheap village and/or a potentially useful $2 card on the board, Ambassador is FAR superior to Chapel.And more importantly than that, you can keep attacking with Ambassador into the mid- and late-game, when other cards you would get primarily for trashing would typically be dead weight.
The net shift in cards with Chapel is one more - if you actually use it to trash all 4 cards. But with Ambassador you can swing 3 cards AND buy something. Or, with a village, you can swing just as many cards as Chapel by removing two and sending two to your opponent.
I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.
I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.
I'm surprised to hear people disagree about the top 4, because in my mind they are so firmly and absolutely #1 Ambassador, close #2 Masquerade, little less close #3 Fishing Village, right on its heels #4 Menagerie. The next 3 are Swindler, Steward, and Warehouse, in some order. And then Tunnel.
Agreed, with the caveat that Tunnel is not quite as certain as the top seven (though I still put it at #8). The best $3 cards are just so, so much easier to rank than any other stretch at any other price point (barring a couple specific outliers like Chapel, Adventurer, and Familiar).
I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))
I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))
no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.
I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))
no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.
I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.This is crazy talk from a level 45 but whatever :))
no but seriously WHY, menagerie is so good.
Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.
Swindler is not OK strong, its curser-strong. Swindler is the terminal I most often open double of. I don't open ambassador-ambassador, I choose amb/silver. But I open double swindler.Swindler being annoying might cloud my judgement some here (and to be fair, I usually veto it unless there is something even more annoying on the board), but black market - black market is my 3rd favourite double terminal open (uhm ignoring workshop rushes) but steward for example is still lot better than bm is obviously. And I'm not saying swindler isnt a power 3, menagerie is just even more so.
Hmm, I'm curious about one thing. Qvist, maybe you can confirm, did the user who rated Tunnel first's name start with a J and end in a 2? If so... yeah, that figures, from him ¬_¬.
Swindler is good like IGG is good. It turns the game on its head.
Swindler is good like IGG is good. It turns the game on its head.
:o This is not true at all !
I have won so many games ignoring swindler. Sometimes by three points because my opponent's swindler gave me a duchy. Sometimes because he trashed a province and accelerated the game. Sometimes because he trashed a curse and replaced it by a copper (because the curse pile was emptied). Sometimes because he trashed a peddler. Sometimes because he only hits estates and other cards that doesn't matter.
I really think swindler is the most overrated card of the game. And while IGG is the key card of most games, swindler is only a little addition.
I guess the $5s are fairly clear as well, and I am guessing it will and should be Witch, Mountebank, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wharf, Hunting Party. Of course, after those few it gets much trickier.
Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.
Hmm, I'm curious about one thing. Qvist, maybe you can confirm, did the user who rated Tunnel first's name start with a J and end in a 2? If so... yeah, that figures, from him ¬_¬.
I don't know if this is an insider joke, but no. I think you meant that it starts with an z, right? The user that ranked Tunnel on #1 didn't submit a user name, so the weighting on this vote isn't high either way.
I guess the $5s are fairly clear as well, and I am guessing it will and should be Witch, Mountebank, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wharf, Hunting Party. Of course, after those few it gets much trickier.
FWIW, I have the same cards in my top 5, but not in the same order. Most importantly, I'm pretty confident that IGG should not be ahead of Wharf/HP.Menagerie is fun. Swindler is not fun. You can still ignore menagerie 5x more frequently than you can avoid swindler.
I ignore Swindler twice as often as I ignore Menagerie. Mind you, I still buy it 80 percent of the time. It's still a really strong card. But it's not an automatic purchase in the way Mountebank and Witch are: sometimes there are counters, sometimes there are just flat-out better options. In particular, the fact that it replaces Copper with Curse rather than increasing your deck size makes it much, MUCH less essential than actual curse-givers when trashing is around, for instance.
Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If the board is weak, there is a lot of cards I'd rather find from the BM before my opponent does. Its not a very common open, no, but it shouldnt blow Fabians mind. :oBlack Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
What if you pull out witch or mountebank and your opponent chose the 2nd best alternative which was smithy-big money? Some boards are weak (too many villages and no trashing/power cards), some black market decks are strong.
Isn't nearly any engine going to work, provided there's no decent trashing available (other than the Amb you got)? Then you can just spam ten curses to your opponent. Heck, if they forgo an engine, spam them with Black Markets once the good cards run out.If you open BM/BM and pull Ambassador out of the deck, and fishing village is not on the board.. I really don't see a winning deck here.Black Market/Black Market as an opening blows my mind.This seems totally reasonable in the right kingdom when there's a cheap power card in the Black Market deck. In a good kingdom for Amb, pulling Amb from the BM on T3/T4 is nearly a certain win. Even if you don't buy anything from the BM, in the common case where they don't collide, it's no worse than Silver/Silver.
I put swindler over menagerie, and stand by that.
Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.
Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.Uh, how is BM/BM/Amb/7C/3E a bad deck? Return some coppers/estates, buy some villages, buy draw (either on the board, or there is usually some in the BM deck). Win. It's _at worst_ 2 turns slower than opening Amb if it were in the kingdom!
Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
Seeing someone defend a BM/BM opening blows my mind even more heh. Nice BM/BM/Ambassador/7Copper/3Estate deck there when all your dreams come true on turn 3 :( :( That's a best case scenario made in heaven for sure.Uh, how is BM/BM/Amb/7C/3E a bad deck? Return some coppers/estates, buy some villages, buy draw (either on the board, or there is usually some in the BM deck). Win. It's _at worst_ 2 turns slower than opening Amb if it were in the kingdom!
Edit: I've never really understood why people have said they consider Black Market a huge trap card, so I feel I've learned something today.
It's completely impossible to check this in the simulator, because the simulator is bad at playing Amb (and for that matter bad at engines in general). If you think BMU will beat an Amb-powered engine, even if that Amb is delayed to T3, you are the crazy one, not me.
Edit: I'm actually in shock here at how delusional you are. I wouldn't care except you apparently are determined on trolling me over it.
We're not even talking about the strength of BM/BM opening anymore. We're talking about: can an Amb engine beat BMU if BMU is given a 2 turn head start? And the answer is... duh! It's rated the best $3 card for a reason!
When did we start assuming there was no engine on the board? The whole point is that there is an engine. Even outside the BM, Amb is often not worth it without an engine. Obviously, if you wouldn't buy Amb outside the BM, you should not buy BM in order to try to get it.It's completely impossible to check this in the simulator, because the simulator is bad at playing Amb (and for that matter bad at engines in general). If you think BMU will beat an Amb-powered engine, even if that Amb is delayed to T3, you are the crazy one, not me.
Edit: I'm actually in shock here at how delusional you are. I wouldn't care except you apparently are determined on trolling me over it.
We're not even talking about the strength of BM/BM opening anymore. We're talking about: can an Amb engine beat BMU if BMU is given a 2 turn head start? And the answer is... duh! It's rated the best $3 card for a reason!
Its not just if it has a 2 turn head start. It's also if it can win with the addition of 2 weak terminals and no engine on the board with pieces only coming from the BM deck...
Blueblump sorry but you're just so wrong on this one.Just ran a quick solo game with opening BM/BM, buying an Amb T3, then buying no actions except Village/Smithy. This is about as bad an engine as it gets. By the end of turn 13, it has already given the opposing player 3 coppers and 2 estates. Starting turn 14 (when unattacked Smithy BM typically hits 4 provinces), it begins sending over a curse every turn and buying a province every turn. Of course that will break down after a bit of greening, but that's not really the point, since this is a terrible engine anyway. (Log for what it's worth: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html).)
"I'm going to clog my deck with 2x terminals for the reshuffle so that I can buy a third terminal on t3/t4 if I get very lucky. After clogging my deck with 3 terminals that help my economy significantly less than silver, I'll get rid of coppers/estates 2/2. Then I will build an engine that could not have been made by ignoring BM/ambassador"...
I'm thinking smithy BM will crush this without fishing village support or something similar outside of the bm deck, with MORE key cards within the BM deck.
....blueblimp, when Bm-bm GETS A T3 AMB it holds its own. What about when, you know, it *doesn't* get a t3 amb?But Fabian was claiming that BM/BM loses when it gets a T3 Amb:
Let's say you open BM/BM, find an Ambassador on turn 3!! and there's Village available to buy on turn 4!!! Sick magical christmas land dream scenario indeed. What's your winning chance against Big Money Ultimate? What about BM/Smithy?It's definitely reasonable to think BM/BM is weak, but it's absurd to say it loses to BMU after getting a T3 Amb.
and smithy-BM isn't strong BM.I didn't say "strong", I said "decent". And it is decent: see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2532.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2532.0), where it's placed about mid-tier among BM+X cards. It goes roughly 44/52 against Masq+BM and about even against Envoy+BM, for example. Certainly, there are plenty of boards where there is no BM+X as good as BM+Smithy.
Are you quite sure I made that claim? You even quoted the relevant part yourself so it should be very easy to double check.I had to guess what you meant since you refuse to say anything meaningful, preferring to just taunt. So, apologies for not reading your mind correctly.
Anyway I made a post earlier today but I deleted it because I didn't want to pile on.OK, so you taunt repeatedly and then decline to post anything of substance, then claim that you did this to avoid a heated discussion. Heads up: if you troll someone, you want a heated discussion. You got what you wanted, now post something of value.
It had a few game logs of BM/BM/Amb/Village/Smithy (alternating Village/Smithy for a while, then buy a Curse etc, basically the deck you were talking about earlier) losing 4-1 to BM+Smithy with 3 games being complete blowouts and 2 games being close. I suggest you try it out yourself.Yeah, it seems like the restriction on not buying anything more out of the BM deck hurts this too much. There are lots of turns where I'd normally buy a $3 from the BM and then buy a Village, but here I'm stuck just buying a Village. So the restriction on never again using the BM deck is too harsh. Having something with +buy available would probably do the trick, too.
I don't know if this is possible. I know that I forgot to edit the title this time in something like "... Part 2/2 posted" I will do that next time. But at least I added a link below the first post that links to the second part. So you can find it quick.
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
Smugglers, of course.
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
Smugglers, of course.
Man, I should have voted. Develop is not even close to second worst. I almost always buy one, and practically every time I draw it it's useful. There's always SOME card you don't really have a use for in your hand; develop it into two more cards that you can use next time!
But what $3 cards are worse than Develop?
Smugglers, of course.
Oh, no way, man. Though for me Smugglers is truly one of those cards where if I buy it, I lose. If I don't buy it and my opponent does, I lose. If neither of us buy it, I lose. Smugglers and Golem are like that for me.
That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
Cause it sucks. I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.
That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
Cause it sucks. I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.
Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.
I'd make the case for workshop being the worst of the $3 cards. It's just really awful for everything except picking up cards for alt vp and maybe scooping up an island or two in a drawn out game.
In my experience workshop -> silk road is very beatable. I'd be interested in hearing what the emulators have to say about that.
I'd make the case for workshop being the worst of the $3 cards. It's just really awful for everything except picking up cards for alt vp and maybe scooping up an island or two in a drawn out game.It's also good for picking up villages or Caravans if you're making an engine that needs a lot of cheap pieces.
The thing is, is it really THAT important to have double BM right away because you're betting on that your terminals don't clash, and that in the 3 cards it pulls out of 20 (i'm guessing, I think its closer to 25), you'll get a card that will make it playable vs. BM-Smithy? It is just SO much more practical to get your second BM (if it really that necessary) on T3/T4 and open with silver or whatever).Blueblump sorry but you're just so wrong on this one.Just ran a quick solo game with opening BM/BM, buying an Amb T3, then buying no actions except Village/Smithy. This is about as bad an engine as it gets. By the end of turn 13, it has already given the opposing player 3 coppers and 2 estates. Starting turn 14 (when unattacked Smithy BM typically hits 4 provinces), it begins sending over a curse every turn and buying a province every turn. Of course that will break down after a bit of greening, but that's not really the point, since this is a terrible engine anyway. (Log for what it's worth: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/13/game-20120713-221636-d0a2bf4f.html).)
"I'm going to clog my deck with 2x terminals for the reshuffle so that I can buy a third terminal on t3/t4 if I get very lucky. After clogging my deck with 3 terminals that help my economy significantly less than silver, I'll get rid of coppers/estates 2/2. Then I will build an engine that could not have been made by ignoring BM/ambassador"...
I'm thinking smithy BM will crush this without fishing village support or something similar outside of the bm deck, with MORE key cards within the BM deck.
So, even with an awful engine, a T3 Amb after BM/BM can hold its own speed-wise against Smithy+BM. But that's completely ignoring that there will often be something else worthwhile in the BM deck, and also the kingdom engine possibilities will maybe not be so terrible.
You're also enormously overrating the risk of terminal collision on T3/T4. The risk of terminal collision on T3/T4 is only around a third. If you don't collide (two-thirds chance!), then you get to look at 6 cards from the BM deck. There are only 25 cards total in the BM, so that's a significant amount.
If you want to convince me of your position, try making an argument instead of using insults and sarcasm, since frankly that's just trolling.
Edit: Also I only now realize how much you're rigging the kingdom against BM/BM. So... there are no VP options for the engine player apart from Provinces, plus there's a decent BM+X, plus you're omitting the best village from the kingdom, plus it's assumed there's nothing worthwhile in the BM apart from Ambassador? Sure, these things will be true sometimes, but often they won't all be true.
That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
Cause it sucks. I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.
Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.
I'd say that Smugglers is good with Minion, Grand Market, cheap alt-VPs like Gardens, SR, Duke, and Vineyards... and just about nothing else. This is not a hard and fast rule, but it's pretty close to the truth.
Smugglers is not nearly as bad as the worst $4s, or the worst $5s, or 'Mute/PStone, or Adventurer. But I do think it's likely the worst $3 (though you could make good arguments for Develop, Workshop, and Chancellor- they're all pretty close).
That's another thing. Why are people hating on Smugglers all the time. I get great stuff from them. Almost always get at least one, even two if the board is full of nice things.
Cause it sucks. I get great wins all the time from my opponents falling into the Smugglers trap.
Well, I want to believe you, because I hate Smugglers.
I'd say that Smugglers is good with Minion, Grand Market, cheap alt-VPs like Gardens, SR, Duke, and Vineyards... and just about nothing else. This is not a hard and fast rule, but it's pretty close to the truth.
Smugglers is not nearly as bad as the worst $4s, or the worst $5s, or 'Mute/PStone, or Adventurer. But I do think it's likely the worst $3 (though you could make good arguments for Develop, Workshop, and Chancellor- they're all pretty close).
Or cartographer, mining village, nobles, bazaar, etc. The big thing about smugglers is that it is like mine and remodel. You need to be able to play it just about every turn. On a board with spice merchant or warehouse, you call pull smugglers out pretty quick and keep slapping them down. The only problem is, you need to be sure that there's *something* your opponent is gonna buy that will let you get more money.
(For reference, I'm 0.65 effect with, -0.56 effect without, and I buy the damn thing 79.7% of the time, compared to the average of 55.8%).
I like it as an extra Buy on a no +Buy board. And sometimes if you start out hosed, you need to gamble on it to get ahead.
The big thing about smugglers is that it is like mine and remodel. You need to be able to play it just about every turn. On a board with spice merchant or warehouse, you call pull smugglers out pretty quick and keep slapping them down. The only problem is, you need to be sure that there's *something* your opponent is gonna buy that will let you get more money.
Going first is enough of an advantage in Dominion that if the game ends in a tie on the first player's turn, he loses. Buying Smugglers is at best choosing to play your opponent's strategy but allowing him to go first.
(Or cartographer, mining village, nobles, bazaar, etc. )
Okay, possibly Nobles. Not those other things. The big thing with Smugglers actually is, what are you not able to buy because you bought Smugglers instead of Silver, and end up with hands that are often worth $2 less (or more if it leads to terminal clashes)?
I mean, if there's a mirror match engine (or alt-VP) to be built, then sure I'll consider Smugglers. More commonly as second player, of course. However:
* if my opponent is pursuing a different strategy (pretty common)
* or I need to save my terminal slots for attacks that will hopefully hit my opponent and force them to not buy nice things (also pretty common)
* or if I'm going for most BM strategies, especially those like Masq and Jack where the key cards are bought on Turns 1 and 2 (again, pretty common)
* or if the engine is mostly built on Potion and/or Black Market cards (not too uncommon)
...then Smugglers is just not going to do that much for me!
I would say that instead of Mine and Remodel, Smugglers is like Workshop and Tribute. It's a terminal gainer with uncontrollable benefits that rely on your opponent doing the right thing. It has better range than Workshop, but at the price of control- and that's a high price to pay.
Workshop lets you pick exactly what you gain. Smugglers leaves you at the whim of your opponent (and if he's really bright, he can often tell when you have it in hand - which is why it is imperative when you have it to NOT play it if it gets you nothing), for being able to get stuff a little more expensive. Of course, you sometimes get nothing at all. Advantage, workshop, by a pretty wide margin. And it's not the paragon of a great card anyway, much as I like it and know how to use it.The problem with workshop is that most decks aren't based around 4$ cards though. If you play smugglers properly, you will be playing it often enough that if your opponent changes his buy-strategy to avoid giving you good cards, he'll have to seriously hamper himself. I'm not saying smugglers is always useful, but given the choice between smugglers and workshop, I'll take smugglers 95 times out of a hundred. I'd say smugglers is probably around the midpoint on my personal $3 cards list.