Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Davio on June 25, 2012, 05:01:46 am
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Some Dominion cards are better than others, there's no doubt about that, but that's not what I'm interested in.
Where one card may excel in its mechanics or price to action ratio, another may have beautiful art and a third may be the best thematic fit. Surely, there must be a card that does all three exceptionally well.
I would like to find out what our users think is the best designed Dominion card. Qvist has asked you what the best card at each price was, but I'm more interested in other aspects of the card.
Which card scores the highest average on these criteria:
- Mechanics (they're important, but not the be all end all)
- Art (no love for Harem, I'm afraid)
- Thematic fit (does the card do what you would expect a card with such a name to do)
- Expansion fit (does the card symbolize the thought behind its expansion well)
- Simplicity (not that a card needs to have only vanilla effects, just that you can understand it quickly enough)
These are highly subjective questions and what I would like from you is to nominate a bunch of cards.
To nominate a card, you must mention it here (possibly with your reasoning for picking it) and it must be supported by at least one two users.
Once 5 nominees are in, I will add them to the poll (if it allows me to do so) and you can vote for it.
As more expansions come out, I will possibly edit the poll continuously and you are able to change your vote anytime.
I will kick things off by nominating Horn of Plenty. It's the title card of the set and symbolizes it well. The more you diversify, the more you will get out of it. I like the still life art on the card. It may be slightly more difficult than your run of the mill vanilla cards, but I'm willing to let it go. As far as actual gameplay I think it can often make for very fun games because you can always play it (except for Loan) as you don't need actions for it. I like how it encourages you to make use of the entire kingdom to get good use out of it. No longer those Pearl Divers and Spies are useless!
So if you think Horn of Plenty is a top notch designed card, support my vote by saying "+1 for Horn of Plenty" or something similar. If you think Horn of Plenty is awfully designed, just propose another card. It's not possible to "downvote" a card once it's on the list.
You are restricted to three nominations and this includes supports.
The current nominees are:
(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/cornucopia/hornofplenty.jpg)(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/intrigue/masquerade.jpg)(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/prosperity/watchtower.jpg)(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/seaside/tactician.jpg)(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/hinterlands/illgottengains.jpg)
I don't have an image of the new Silver from the base cards set. If anyone has it, please post.
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+1 for HoP ! :D
Island
(Duke and Mine are nice but I don't like the artwork...)
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Cards have card art? :P
I'll vote for City, because as mentioned in the card's article (http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/09/prosperity-city/), it's brilliantly thematic: cities start out as villages, and grow bigger and more powerful as time goes on. The mechanics are also good from a strategic point of view - you know they'll be all-powerful by the end, but can you afford the time taken to get there? And it's also a good fit for Prosperity: it's like a Village, but bigger, and it's better in Colony games.
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As I have 2 nominations remaining, I will +1 for City.
This means we currently have 2 items on our shortlist: Horn of Plenty and City.
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I like very much thematic cards which are often the "most swingiest" cards. 3 nominations is tough. Let's think loud:
Tournament = very thematic: if you take part in a tournament and you are representing a Province and win, you may choose a price: a Princess, a Trusty Steed ...
Black Market = also thematic: you gain coins and may contribute your own money to buy something what isn't available in the "normal" market
Treasure Map = very thematic: you have two pieces of a map and if you put those together, you get a lot of money
Jack of all Trades = can do everything, but nothing very well (and is still a power card)
Fool's Gold = obviously the Gold for Fools
Cutpurse = your opponents lose money, not many, but still...
Tactician = what is better: sacrifice this turn and get a double turn next time!?
Ill-Gotten-Gains = awesome artwork and also thematic
Adventurer = awesome artwork and thematic: he searches through you whole kingdom until he finds some money
Lighthouse = awesome artwork and thematic: it protects from attacking ships (Ghost Ship, Pirate Ship, ...)
Masquerade = great mechanic
Governor = high skill card with interesting mechanic
Torturer = What do you mean by attacking? You still have a choice! A choice between the devil and the deep blue sea! :)
Peddler = unique in cost reduction, great idea
but my number 1 is definitely Embargo:
very thematic: you can prevent your opponent of pursuing his strategy,
great mechanic: tokens are always fun,
high skill card: do I want to spend my money for a one-shot $2 card because it can possibly slow down my opponent? And in the opposite way: Do I want this card so badly that I even buy it with getting a curse?
but still simple
So I nominate Embargo and Tournament and leave the other cards as inspiration for others.
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+1 for embargo !
Even if my favourite is still Horn of plenty.
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+1 for embargo !
Even if my favourite is still Horn of plenty.
Embargo added, three options now available.
We could also do a worst designed card thread one day, but let's not get things mixed up at this point, we already know it's going to be Throne Room which is broken and can induce cheating (doesn't keep you honest as it doesn't require you to show your hand if you have no more actions).
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Lets go for..
+1 for Masquerade
+1 for Golem
I'm tempted to go for Governor too, but I'm not sure how thematically appropriate it is.
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Silver
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Silver
A valid option, let's see if it's supported. :)
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+1 for Masquerade
Seconded.
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+1 for Masquerade
Seconded.
Added.
I also edited the first post to show pictures of the nominees and I edited the poll showing from which expansions the cards are, how much they cost and what type of card they are. The cards in the poll link to articles on the main site, if available.
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I second Tactictian.
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I'd like to nominate Village.
- Mechanics - no problems here
- Art - really detailed and well-done as you can see below
- Thematic fit - fits because "village" seems "action-y" to me
- Expansion fit - fits because it is the most "Base"-ic village :)
- Simplicity - hmm I'll get back to you on this ;)
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-landing/cards/village.jpg)
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I second Tactictian.
Actually you firsted it or I am seriously misreading earlier posts.
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+1 for Horn of Plenty, but Noble Brigand's my second choice.
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I agree : village is one of the best designed card.
But I can't support it...
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I agree : village is one of the best designed card.
But I can't support it...
Why not? ???
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Menagerie
Strong, but not if you just mash them mindlessly. Requires thought when building your deck. Awesomely fun to play, getting one to activate is one of the most rewarding feelings in dominion.
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Swindler
A fun attack that often presents both attacker and defender with interesting choices. An attack that you can avoid and play around. An attack that sometimes forces you to improvise. An attack that changes the game without sitting on it. A terminal Silver that is not strictly better than Silver, but usually is. A card that matches its theme.
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Candidate nominees (one nomination each):
- Golem
- Silver
- Tactician
- Menagerie
- Swindler
- Lighthouse
Posted this so I don't have to keep checking back the previous posts.
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Watchtower
a fantastic defensive card which lives up to it's name, it successfully counters both cursing and hand size reduction attacks. offers incredible utility and is one of the few (only?) action cards which can provide a benefit even when you draw it dead.
and personally i would add a -1 to masquerade. it introduces a fuzzy new 'passing' mechanic, tends to be the boring dominant card on far too many (cursing, BM, and engine) boards, and it has the potential to be quite swingy.
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+1 for Watchtower
+1 for Lighthouse
+1 for Village
They have amazing card art and do what they are expected to do thematically.
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Watchtower
a fantastic defensive card which lives up to it's name, it successfully counters both cursing and hand size reduction attacks. offers incredible utility and is one of the few (only?) action cards which can provide a benefit even when you draw it dead.
Not quite only - Trader is another member of that category.
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+1 for Tactician.
And i want to mention Jack, as it is a really great designed defense card without being a reaction. Plus its name exactly describes its effect and the artwork is not bad.
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Silver
I second the motion.
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+1 Tactician
+1 Great Hall
+1 Masquerade
Silver
Silvers art sucks though. ;)
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+1 for Watchtower. In addition to the reasons greatexpectations gave, it has really nice, atmospheric art.
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+1 Tactician
+1 Great Hall
+1 Masquerade
Silver
Silvers art sucks though. ;)
The new one?
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I'd like to give a shout-out to Ill-Gotten Gains.
The artwork is very creepy and evocative. The name corresponds exactly to the card's effect: treasure that you acquire while harming others. Its behavior is easy to understand, and fits perfectly into Hinterlands—indeed, the one card any of us could have guessed in advance that Hinterlands would contain would be an on-gain curser. But what the effect of the on-gain curser would be, once it was in your deck, is something I think none of us would have predicted (did any of us even guess it would be a Treasure?)—and yet, in retrospect, it seems so perfectly balanced as to be inevitable.
Distributing curses is so desirable that an on-gain curser would have to have a pretty weak on-play effect, or it would be too strong to be priceable; the presence of an on-gain curser is almost guaranteed to cause two piles to exhaust simultaneously; having a deck full of weak cards and curses with two piles empty leads to a Duchy rush. And so we find the copper-gaining copper that IGG is: a weak card that you wouldn't ordinarily want if it didn't curse on gain; but if you're going to be led into a Duchy rush anyway, a copper-gaining copper turns out to be a really useful effect. So the two halves of IGG—its on-gain and on-play effects—synergize in a way that I think none of us saw coming, but makes for a really harmoniously structured card.
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Uh, Peddler.
The mechanic is great--everybody loves cantrips, and everybody loves Peddlers.
It fits the set because it's so expensive--why would I want this card!--but then you see why/how you want this card, why it's such a great card.
It's got top-notch art in my opinion. She's too cute. How can you not buy up all her wares with your extra buys?
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I definitely have to +1 IGG. Totally agree with what AJD said.
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The new one?
Nope, the old one. I haven't seen the new one yet.
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Chapel.
It demonstrates so many things about the game. It is the classic "learning curve" card. It shows how the game can no-sweat handle a card that would be considered too powerful in other games.
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Tactician was my first thought, but it's already got the support, so I'll second Menagerie. It's such a feel-good card : activating it is a delight, but it also has strategic depth and is very powerful. Also, rewarding variety (aka being a Cornucopia card) is always good in my book.
Shouldn't we limit to one +1 per person ? Because it looks like half the cards in Dominion are gonna get in the poll at this rate.
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+1 HoP
This card is slowly becoming a favorite of mine, to a fault sometimes. Whenever there's a chance to build an engine around it, I do. Fits thematically with the expansion, and has simple yet elegant card art.
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Tactician was my first thought, but it's already got the support, so I'll second Menagerie. It's such a feel-good card : activating it is a delight, but it also has strategic depth and is very powerful. Also, rewarding variety (aka being a Cornucopia card) is always good in my book.
Shouldn't we limit to one +1 per person ? Because it looks like half the cards in Dominion are gonna get in the poll at this rate.
Maybe I'll revise it eventually, but I'll see where it goes...
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+1 chapel
I'll nominate Haggler. Given the criteria:
Mechanics: It's a cool mechanic. Strong enough but not overpowered. It can be one of the harder cards to evaluate in a given kingdom, IMO, which is a good thing.
Art: I like it.
Thematic fit: Next to thief, about as good as it gets. When you buy a card, you haggle to get a bonus card thrown into the deal.
Expansion fit: Hinterlands is all about on-gain/on-buy effects. Haggler gives you an on-buy effect.
Simplicity: It's a simple card. The hardest part is recognizing the difference between gaining a card and buying it, but haggler is a good introduction to those nuances.
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+ 1 for Haggler and Island. Both GREAT cards.
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Pirate Ship. I realize I'm probably biased, and I also realize that it's not the best card ever, but to me, it seems very well designed. It does exactly what you'd think a Pirate Ship would do. I always imagine myself looting and pillaging whenever I let loose a Pirate Ship. And the art is pretty damn good, too.
As for the expansion fit, Pirate Ship is not a card that is good for you right away. In fact, it's almost bad - you're helping your opponent get rid of chaff in their deck. But if you use it well, Pirate Ship is a juggernaut in the late game - it can yield more coins than any other card of its cost, or really, any other card in the game, aside from perhaps Vault. This ties in quite nicely with the "next turn" theme of Seaside.
Honorable Mentions:
Young Witch - BEAUTIFUL artwork, probably the best.
Harvest - it really feels like you reap what you sow with this card.
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IGG a million times. +1 to ADJ.
For artwork, Monument, Possession, and Saboteur are cool.
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IGG a million times. +1 to ADJ.
For artwork, Monument, Possession, and Saboteur are cool.
In terms of artwork, I've always loved Scrying Pool. It might be a little kiddish but it's just so fun!
Oh, and also Alchemist. :P
But I voted for watchtower, it is a card that is so much deeper than it looks at first, it's been super interesting to me recently, and I'm trying to improve with it. It also has awesome art that looks nice with the color of the card itself.
HoP is great, Chapel is wonderful, City is fun and deep, I'm echoing a lot of the stuff already here.
I think I'll nominate Bishop because it is really unique and I feel that it fits into kingdoms in a different way than many cards, so that you have to consider it in a different light. Very cool concept that I think no one but Donald X. Vaccarino would come up with. And the artwork is awesome (does it remind anyone else of Dark Magician from Yu-gi-oh!??).
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Okay, since the poll is limited to 10 votes, I have to modify some stuff.
A candidate now needs 2 support votes to be entered into the poll.
So far, these cards have been nominated with the # of nominations/supports.
Hop 4
City 2
Island 2
Embargo 1
Masq 3
Golem 1
Silver 1
Tact 3
Village 2
Noble Brigand 1
Menagerie 2
Swindler 1
Watchtower 3
Lighthouse 1
Jack 1
Great Hall 1
IGG 3
Peddler 1
Chapel 2
Haggler 1
Pirate Ship 1
Bishop 1
This means only Horn of Plenty, Masquerade, Tactician, Watchtower and Ill-Gotten Gains have made the cut.
Because of this, I had to reset the vote count, otherwise it wouldn't have been fair. But voting is easy and only takes a second.
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Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.
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Young Witch: How has this not been nominated yet? The strategy changes completely depending on what the bane card is, and it even acts as a partial defensive counter.
Apothecary: You think it's useless, but then you realise just what the combo potential can do. Needs the right board, but then what doesn't? Also plus for the art.
City: Yes, I like the upgrading mechanic too, and hope to see more of it.
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Both great cards. I'll put in my last +1 for apothecary since it's one of my personal favorites.
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There's now a poll to see what gets in the poll?
(http://t.qkme.me/3pv9xz.jpg)
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Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.
Yeah, +1 to this comment! I'm very surprised to see that much love for IGG. In game terms, I consider it the epitome of a card whose rules design has made the game less fun. IGG-rush is a low skill strategy, yet its almost always dominant when IGG is present.
For my own part, I'll add +1 vote for another unpopular card, but one which I like a lot:
Possession!
Great art, thematically feels like what it represents (you are taking control of them as if they were your puppet, mwahahaha!). Rules wise its surprisingly satisfying, in that its not an auto-grab if its present, but its presence always affects how you strategise for a given kingdom.
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I would consider IGG to be one of the WORST designed cards (the other being Jack)
But this topic seems to oscillate a lot as to what "best-designed" means. Mechanics? Art? Theme? Because these categories aren't even a little correlated with each other.
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But this topic seems to ocillate a lot as to what "best-designed" means. Mechanics? Art? Theme? Because these categories aren't even a little correlated with each other.
The fact that those aren't correlated with each other is kind of the point, isn't it? Because they're not correlated, the number of cards that excel in all of those respects will be quite small.
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So the question is which card is the best at ALL three of those? I'm going to put my money on Young Witch. Really stark, moody art, mechanics that are a real puzzler on a lot of boards, and a sort of randomly-generated story behind her based on the bane.
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So the question is which card is the best at ALL three of those? I'm going to put my money on Young Witch. Really stark, moody art, mechanics that are a real puzzler on a lot of boards, and a sort of randomly-generated story behind her based on the bane.
Enthusiastic agreement on all counts. +1 for Young Witch.
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Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.
Yeah, +1 to this comment! I'm very surprised to see that much love for IGG. In game terms, I consider it the epitome of a card whose rules design has made the game less fun. IGG-rush is a low skill strategy, yet its almost always dominant when IGG is present.
For my own part, I'll add +1 vote for another unpopular card, but one which I like a lot:
Possession!
Great art, thematically feels like what it represents (you are taking control of them as if they were your puppet, mwahahaha!). Rules wise its surprisingly satisfying, in that its not an auto-grab if its present, but its presence always affects how you strategise for a given kingdom.
I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.
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Since apparently I have more than one +1 to give, I'll give it to Bishop. I think Watchtower still has my vote, but Bishop is oh so close: VP chips are great, it's a good card but not always the right move, it can create a whole new type of game (the Golden Deck), non-attack player interaction is always good to have, etc. etc. etc. Also has some of the best art too.
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Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.
Masquerade is one of my favorite cards (although I'm not a big fan of IGG) - Still, this isn't a poll about how I feel about a card being in a kingdom. Strength or warping doesn't really factor in too much. I think the artwork on Masquerade is simple, but elegant. It's mechanic isn't too difficult to understand, and when I think Masquerade, I think ballroom dancing and passing your partner from person to person - Which matches the flavor and feel of the card quite well. Thus I feel it it's place is quite deserved on *this list*.
Now, if we're talking most balanced, or strongest, or most annoying, or game warping, or whatever, that's entirely different.
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I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.
I would actually argue that Possession is more fair in a 3 or 4 player game than in a two player game. In a 2 player game, whoever gets Possession first has the chance to possess the other player's possession buying turn or even their possession playing turn. So, first possession is a significant advantage.
In a three player game, if I buy the first Possession, I'll be slowing the player to my left from getting a possession and playing it. But, I'm doing nothing about the player to my left. He can then possess me and help the player to my left by stopping me from possessing him. That way, once the player to my left gets a possession thanks to the player from my right, things are balanced out.
In a four player game, some of the imbalance returns. If the two players across from each other get the first two possessions, then the other pair each has a disadvantage because they're getting possessed but can't possess. But, the imbalance is less than in two player because by playing possession, you aren't making it harder for yourself to get possessed. That only comes up in two player.
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I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.
I would actually argue that Possession is more fair in a 3 or 4 player game than in a two player game. In a 2 player game, whoever gets Possession first has the chance to possess the other player's possession buying turn or even their possession playing turn. So, first possession is a significant advantage.
In a three player game, if I buy the first Possession, I'll be slowing the player to my left from getting a possession and playing it. But, I'm doing nothing about the player to my left. He can then possess me and help the player to my left by stopping me from possessing him. That way, once the player to my left gets a possession thanks to the player from my right, things are balanced out.
In a four player game, some of the imbalance returns. If the two players across from each other get the first two possessions, then the other pair each has a disadvantage because they're getting possessed but can't possess. But, the imbalance is less than in two player because by playing possession, you aren't making it harder for yourself to get possessed. That only comes up in two player.
Possession In Front Of Me argument? PIFOM.
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No Pirate Ship love? D:
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I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.
I nominate Inn
My reasoning is as follows. First off, the artwork is superb. A beautiful countryside scene with an inn. It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card. Next off are the mechanics and name. Inn is a Village type card in that it gives +2 actions. I ask you, where do you find inns? You normally find them in a village making it very fitting that this village variant would be present in a village. Next consider the set as a whole. Hinterlands theme is on gain effects. Inn does an extraordinary job at incorporating this theme into it with the on gain clause. This card is certainly not worth $5 without the on gain benefit. In fact, the on gain benefit is what makes this card a very strategic pick up.
Edit: See below for a small depiction of the artwork.
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I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.
I nominate Inn
My reasoning is as follows. First off, the artwork is superb. A beautiful countryside scene with an inn. It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card.
I won't disagree ! ;D
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I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.
I nominate Inn
My reasoning is as follows. First off, the artwork is superb. A beautiful countryside scene with an inn. It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card. Next off are the mechanics and name. Inn is a Village type card in that it gives +2 actions. I ask you, where do you find inns? You normally find them in a village making it very fitting that this village variant would be present in a village. Next consider the set as a whole. Hinterlands theme is on gain effects. Inn does an extraordinary job at incorporating this theme into it with the on gain clause. This card is certainly not worth $5 without the on gain benefit. In fact, the on gain benefit is what makes this card a very strategic pick up.
It's also worth noting this is another good case of synergy between on-buy and on-play effects. The on-buy effect is likely to lead to a bunch of action cards clustered together in your deck; the on-play effect gives you the +actions you need to play all those cards.
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I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?
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I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?
I think King's Court is far more to blame in that case, as it causes the destruction of many, many boards.
But more importantly for me, Masquerade ranks high in Artwork, Thematic Feel, and Expansion Fit, as well as being relatively simple (compare to Cities). And for me at least (although I admit there is plenty of debate here) the mechanic IS very enjoyable; even if at times it's broken.
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It's also worth noting this is another good case of synergy between on-buy and on-play effects. The on-buy effect is likely to lead to a bunch of action cards clustered together in your deck; the on-play effect gives you the +actions you need to play all those cards.
Not to mention the mini-Warehouse effect is uniquely well suited to Inn. This is something I never see people talk about, but it's brilliantly done.
Of course handsize reduction weakens Inn megaturns and keep them from getting totally broken when you stack the deck. But when you HAVEN'T stacked the deck, you might have the problem that your density of important actions is a little low. Isn't that why you're relying heavily on Inn to draw your hot combo? So hey, here's some sifting to help you out. And you'll hardly even miss that fifth card, because you're playing a combo deck and you don't care about anything except playing a double Goons or whatever. (If you are playing a +Cards/+Actions engine you'll probably miss the extra card, but if your engine is going off even without stacking the deck then you don't need the help.) It'll even help you cycle your deck faster, so you can fill up your discard pile with good stuff and buy another Inn that much sooner. All these things together give a complicated card like Inn a very clear and coherent strategic use, and a very distinct one at that (compared to other Villages it's much better for setting up non-card-draw combos without the need to draw your deck, though it can sometimes do that too.) And to top it off, variance is also reduced by slightly strengthening the off turns and weakening the megaturns while also making them more frequent, so that game outcome depends a bit less on that timing.
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Updated nomination count:
Hop 4
City 2
Island 2
Embargo 1
Masq 3
Golem 1
Silver 1
Tact 3
Village 2
Noble Brigand 1
Menagerie 2
Swindler 1
Watchtower 3
Lighthouse 1
Jack 1
Great Hall 1
IGG 3
Peddler 1
Chapel 2
Haggler 1
Pirate Ship 1
Bishop 2
Apo 1
Poss 1
YW 2
Inn 1
Also, please make clear if you're nominating a card, it's sometimes hard to tell if someone is just proposing or defending a card or actually nominating it.
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I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?
I think Masquerade loses some points on clarity because everyone always seems to spend a while confused over how receiving a card with Masquerade doesn't count as gaining it.