Campsite - Action, [ ] cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
[ ]: discard 2 Victory cards, revealing them.
Equivalent or better? This is strictly worse than Lost City for the very reason you described; setting aside an Action card and playing it is strictly worse than +1 Action. With Thrones and terminal draw this becomes a significant disadvantage.
Equivalent or better? This is strictly worse than Lost City for the very reason you described; setting aside an Action card and playing it is strictly worse than +1 Action. With Thrones and terminal draw this becomes a significant disadvantage.
I agree that it is worse--the cost is huge and setting aside an Action card is indeed worse than +1 Action--but it isn't quite strictly worse than Lost City. Lost City can only play two cards.
Equivalent or better? This is strictly worse than Lost City for the very reason you described; setting aside an Action card and playing it is strictly worse than +1 Action. With Thrones and terminal draw this becomes a significant disadvantage.
I agree that it is worse--the cost is huge and setting aside an Action card is indeed worse than +1 Action--but it isn't quite strictly worse than Lost City. Lost City can only play two cards.
Also, the fact that it gets all of the Action cards out of your hand before you start resolving them has a variety of interactions with cards that care about what is (or isn't) in your hand: think Tactician, Diplomat, Shanty Town, and and draw-to-x (off the top of my head). (Although Tactician's synergy is more about the fact that you can have another Action card pending [for lack of a better term] when you play it and dump your hand.)
Bone Collector - [ ]
Action - Command
Choose one: Play a non-Command Action card from your Exile twice, discarding it; or play a non-Command Action card from your hand, Exiling it.
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[ ]: Exile 2 non-Command Action cards you have in hand.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51327652569_7538d6567e_b.jpg)QuoteBone Collector - [ ]
Action - Command
Play a non-Command Action card from your Exile, leaving it there.
----
[ ]: Exile a non-Duration Action card you have in play costing $2 or more.
An emulator in the vein of Band of Misfits. The catch with Bone Collector is that you have to Exile Action cards for it to be useful, but it requires you to Exile Action cards to purchase as well, so that shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Possible busted combinations would be with Camel Train. Feedback is appreciated.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51327652569_7538d6567e_b.jpg)QuoteBone Collector - [ ]
Action - Command
Play a non-Command Action card from your Exile, leaving it there.
----
[ ]: Exile a non-Duration Action card you have in play costing $2 or more.
An emulator in the vein of Band of Misfits. The catch with Bone Collector is that you have to Exile Action cards for it to be useful, but it requires you to Exile Action cards to purchase as well, so that shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Possible busted combinations would be with Camel Train. Feedback is appreciated.
Doesn't really seem like a cost to me. You're not losing anything by Exiling an Action card, cause you can still play it with Bone Collector. In fact, if you already have other Bone Collectors, then you're effectively multiplying the card you just Exiled, because *all* of your Bone Collectors can play it. And unlike with trashing for Necromancer, you're only benefiting yourself
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51327652569_7538d6567e_b.jpg)QuoteBone Collector - [ ]
Action - Command
Play a non-Command Action card from your Exile, leaving it there.
----
[ ]: Exile a non-Duration Action card you have in play costing $2 or more.
An emulator in the vein of Band of Misfits. The catch with Bone Collector is that you have to Exile Action cards for it to be useful, but it requires you to Exile Action cards to purchase as well, so that shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Possible busted combinations would be with Camel Train. Feedback is appreciated.
Doesn't really seem like a cost to me. You're not losing anything by Exiling an Action card, cause you can still play it with Bone Collector. In fact, if you already have other Bone Collectors, then you're effectively multiplying the card you just Exiled, because *all* of your Bone Collectors can play it. And unlike with trashing for Necromancer, you're only benefiting yourself
This is an apt critique. The main issue I see is the fact Bone Collectors will snowball and make single purchase of a $5 or more cost card multiply if Exiled. I am changing to a bit of a different design.
Equivalent or better? This is strictly worse than Lost City for the very reason you described; setting aside an Action card and playing it is strictly worse than +1 Action. With Thrones and terminal draw this becomes a significant disadvantage.
I agree that it is worse--the cost is huge and setting aside an Action card is indeed worse than +1 Action--but it isn't quite strictly worse than Lost City. Lost City can only play two cards.
Also, the fact that it gets all of the Action cards out of your hand before you start resolving them has a variety of interactions with cards that care about what is (or isn't) in your hand: think Tactician, Diplomat, Shanty Town, and and draw-to-x (off the top of my head). (Although Tactician's synergy is more about the fact that you can have another Action card pending [for lack of a better term] when you play it and dump your hand.)
There's way more times just getting +Actions would be better, though. If you draw this with a Smithy, you have no Actions left after playing this and the Smithy. If you draw Lost City and a Smithy, you can still keep playing Actions after playing the Smithy. You have to have this in hand at the same time as all cards you want to play with it; not true of +Actions. And terminal draw cards are more common than all those cases you listed, combined.
Bribe • (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e7f3d8b0b6db94c21ce2d22/5e824ad1d3f17e3f7be5e8fc/b8ec20b404639d56da7b8aceae395cd6/CardCostIcon.png) • Action
The first time you play this on your turn, after your turn ends, take an Arbiter turn. Gain a copy of any cards they do during that turn.
-
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e7f3d8b0b6db94c21ce2d22/5e824ad1d3f17e3f7be5e8fc/b8ec20b404639d56da7b8aceae395cd6/CardCostIcon.png): Trash a card from your hand costing $4 or more.
The Arbiter gains it.
Setup: The Arbiter starts with 2 Silvers, 5 Coppers, and 3 Estates.
Daemon
Night - Duration
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing two Action cards. Discard the other cards and set the Action cards aside (on this). Play them at the start of your next turn, in either order.
-
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e7f3d8b0b6db94c21ce2d22/5e824ad1d3f17e3f7be5e8fc/b8ec20b404639d56da7b8aceae395cd6/CardCostIcon.png): Discard two Action cards.
(https://i.imgur.com/3VXEeL8h.png) | Quote from: Humility
|
(http://i.imgur.com/X9pwRaS.png)This looks weird. In Kingdoms without other extra Buys you gotta add enough payload cards to hit $8 and then you gotta waste 8 Coins and one Buy on a $4 strength card that then semi-competes with all the other payload card in your deck.
Sure, the next ones are a bit of a freebie but I have a hunch that this is simply too late in the game, spending those $8 on a Province is probably better than building up so late towards a two Provinces per turn deck.
(https://i.imgur.com/OgON76U.png)
When you buy it, you get to decide your next turn with great control. But When you play heirs gift, its an okay sifter. Be careful or you might get junked with the gift later!
This contest focuses on card costs.
Go for it, WELP is fine.This contest focuses on card costs.
Does it have to be a Card or can it be a WELP?
venusambassador (https://i.ibb.co/jHTZgRr/Underground-City.png) | +: Working towards a high payout of (simulated) +Actions can be fun. -: play Actions from hand is much less flexible than +Actions, so it's very influenced by shuffle randomness. Cost: very heavy considering the impact on the card itself. It certainly seems too much. Overview: it plays very similarly to City Quarter (especially with the original 8 debt) in loving high Action density. The cost could be improved, as could changing the play effect to, e.g., reveal hand, +1 Action per Action revealed. |
Xen3k (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51331588514_1912e94bb6_b.jpg) | +: It creates a different strategy involving mega turns and an ever changing deck size. -: The cases where this really shines seem to be limited to other cards that Exile. Cost: two Actions not played now is a big sting, but setting up powerful plays later helps soothe this. It's an investment where the bigger cost now in terms of usefulness of the Actions usually means more payoff later. The Bone Collector starts off with fuel, but then gets much weaker when it needs to refuel; because of this balance is hard to call, but if it's right then this is clever. Overview: It might be too heavily influenced by the presence of other Exiling cards, and a bit too weak for its cost without them. I wonder if it couldn't go bigger on the number of Actions moved to Exile somehow. '[ ]: Exile 2 or more...' maybe. In any case, I feel Throne-Command from Exile has potential to go somewhere. |
spineflu (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60f97ff6c7d310560c20f5d3/c5c8f9ae6b42c70955007e4cc7e96b92/image.png) | +: definitely a new, interactive spin to add to the game. Although I've never played with Possession, I could see this being the nicer play experience. The Arbiter rules for the most part make intuitive sense. -: randomness could be an issue, like if one player pays a Gold for a Bribe, gets to hit $8, then the other players miss out. It will feel particularly bad. The first player to use Bribe would be at an advantage when debt is present, if I understand correctly; they get a debt free City Quarter or $6 out of Capital whilst the Arbiter has to carry the debt to its next user (or players choose to not play Bribe then, which would be sad). So it needs to shift debt to the player using it like Possession does. Flag Bearer is funny too, paying one for a Bribe means the Arbiter gets the Flag; might be a fun desirability. Cost: it is effective here, avoiding $ cost so Bribes can't end up in the Arbiter deck without deliberate work involving Masquerade. But is trashing a $4 to access it balanced? Feast would suggest a power level of $5 or more, but needing a Buy instead of an Action and you can use the $4 for a bit first. Yielding from $2-$7 plus whatever contributed cards add could well average out at $5 strength. Testing could prove this very wrong though. Overview: a big list of FAQs would make this more of an academic exercise than a game for some, but polish them up with everything made safe and it could be worth a try. |
mxdata (https://i.imgur.com/TuCnZgF.png) | +: Paying for a splitter with unplayed Actions can be interesting, and if the deck is filled with terminals to make payment easier, the play is still a bit clunky using these. -: just the name I guess, nothing mechanically negative. Some may not like the similarity to other splitters/enablers. Cost: there is the obvious self synergy where paying for one of these helps set up a copy you have in hand, but there are other good points: the Actions you pay can't be too bad or require precise timing, since they can be a disadvantage when this plays them, making the cost a little more expensive. Overview: the first impression is good. It's rather like Bone Collector in the cost of 2 Action cards that can fuel the on-play, but because of consistent power level this is a bit easier to assess. Testing would need to show the the cost is balanced on average to be sure, but it feels about right. |
NoMoreFun (http://i.imgur.com/X9pwRaS.png) | +: Very simple to understand, it's a +Buy with added payload when the deck is ready for it. -: It seems rather weak. The opportunity cost of first buying it when you don't have any other +Buys is rather large, although getting copies becomes much easier and they may be preferred over Gold. Cost: it's rather loosely defined as a 'card' cost. I did say cards in play could meet a condition and count as a card cost, but here, the cards themselves are only indirectly involved. Like, you could pay 8 Coffers and not use cards at all. So it could be confusing. Overview: the cost is the biggest design snag for me. I would suggest that a $* cost be more appropriate ('if you have $8 or more this costs $0 (or $X less)'). It might be a neat card for some audiences then, if not too similar to Animal Fair. |
emtzalex (https://i.imgur.com/3VXEeL8h.png) | +: Simple discard for benefit that has a neat scaling effect. -: it could have the potential to overwhelm with options, but Provinces are a standout favoured target to simplify things. Cost: pure card cost avoids this gaining itself, and the scaling to Silvers/Golds/kingdom Treasures is potentially neat when draw is limited and picking up 3 Coppers won't happen. Good choice. Overview: simple design that's quite strongly affected by the presence of draw. Province discarding might be such a standout function that this is actually quite narrow and scripted to most players; this either makes it interesting for working out the high skill potential with other targets, or uninteresting. I can't decide myself. |
fika monster (https://i.imgur.com/m8Pqqxr.png) | +: An extremely cheap cost with a tame effect in engines. -: terminally pick any card would lend itself to big money over engines, and it might be rather too good at setting up $8 hands by lining Golds and Silvers up. Cost: it's so cheap that gaining the Heir's Gift itself is the cost, in a way. One can pick up a free double Scheme at the cost of a terminal in the deck. This can be made into a good design premise. Overview: the on-buy Scheme and the finding any card are two functions this card has, and they are freely available. Put together, I fear money strategies will pick up 4 or 5 Provinces too fast. |
Timinou (https://i.imgur.com/Zu8iDRO.png) | +: Alt VP with a card cost makes for an alternative way to win: trash cards whilst keeping some green around. -: Shuffle randomness can decide how buyable this is, so one can get a VP lead purely by chance sometimes, but this is true for a lot of card costs. Cost: pure card cost means this calls for a strategy involving draw and gaining cards to trash, or picking the odd one up at an opportune time. It can pay for itself, which helps cheapen the cost to just the trashing later on. Overview: I have a similar idea to this in my own folder of designs, which rewards more VP for having few non-Victories in the deck and costs trashing 3 non-Victories from hand. That idea would benefit from being $* cost to be more buyable. This can get away with just the card cost, I think, so it's a solid design. |
Results
Card costs are a wide and diverse field to look into. Many factors are involved such as timing of availability, expensiveness, effect on the card's other functions, and the route one takes to purchase it.
Many designs here looked at costs that interact with the on-play effect. I guess it's easy to create a meaningful cost that way, and there have been some great executions as a result.
Onto the analysis:
venusambassador
(https://i.ibb.co/jHTZgRr/Underground-City.png)
+: Working towards a high payout of (simulated) +Actions can be fun.
-: play Actions from hand is much less flexible than +Actions, so it's very influenced by shuffle randomness.
Cost: very heavy considering the impact on the card itself. It certainly seems too much.
Overview: it plays very similarly to City Quarter (especially with the original 8 debt) in loving high Action density. The cost could be improved, as could changing the play effect to, e.g., reveal hand, +1 Action per Action revealed.
Xen3k
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51331588514_1912e94bb6_b.jpg)
+: It creates a different strategy involving mega turns and an ever changing deck size.
-: The cases where this really shines seem to be limited to other cards that Exile.
Cost: two Actions not played now is a big sting, but setting up powerful plays later helps soothe this. It's an investment where the bigger cost now in terms of usefulness of the Actions usually means more payoff later. The Bone Collector starts off with fuel, but then gets much weaker when it needs to refuel; because of this balance is hard to call, but if it's right then this is clever.
Overview: It might be too heavily influenced by the presence of other Exiling cards, and a bit too weak for its cost without them. I wonder if it couldn't go bigger on the number of Actions moved to Exile somehow. '[ ]: Exile 2 or more...' maybe. In any case, I feel Throne-Command from Exile has potential to go somewhere.
spineflu
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60f97ff6c7d310560c20f5d3/c5c8f9ae6b42c70955007e4cc7e96b92/image.png)
+: definitely a new, interactive spin to add to the game. Although I've never played with Possession, I could see this being the nicer play experience. The Arbiter rules for the most part make intuitive sense.
-: randomness could be an issue, like if one player pays a Gold for a Bribe, gets to hit $8, then the other players miss out. It will feel particularly bad. The first player to use Bribe would be at an advantage when debt is present, if I understand correctly; they get a debt free City Quarter or $6 out of Capital whilst the Arbiter has to carry the debt to its next user (or players choose to not play Bribe then, which would be sad). So it needs to shift debt to the player using it like Possession does. Flag Bearer is funny too, paying one for a Bribe means the Arbiter gets the Flag; might be a fun desirability.
Cost: it is effective here, avoiding $ cost so Bribes can't end up in the Arbiter deck without deliberate work involving Masquerade. But is trashing a $4 to access it balanced? Feast would suggest a power level of $5 or more, but needing a Buy instead of an Action and you can use the $4 for a bit first. Yielding from $2-$7 plus whatever contributed cards add could well average out at $5 strength. Testing could prove this very wrong though.
Overview: a big list of FAQs would make this more of an academic exercise than a game for some, but polish them up with everything made safe and it could be worth a try.
mxdata
(https://i.imgur.com/TuCnZgF.png)
+: Paying for a splitter with unplayed Actions can be interesting, and if the deck is filled with terminals to make payment easier, the play is still a bit clunky using these.
-: just the name I guess, nothing mechanically negative. Some may not like the similarity to other splitters/enablers.
Cost: there is the obvious self synergy where paying for one of these helps set up a copy you have in hand, but there are other good points: the Actions you pay can't be too bad or require precise timing, since they can be a disadvantage when this plays them, making the cost a little more expensive.
Overview: the first impression is good. It's rather like Bone Collector in the cost of 2 Action cards that can fuel the on-play, but because of consistent power level this is a bit easier to assess. Testing would need to show the the cost is balanced on average to be sure, but it feels about right.
NoMoreFun
(http://i.imgur.com/X9pwRaS.png)
+: Very simple to understand, it's a +Buy with added payload when the deck is ready for it.
-: It seems rather weak. The opportunity cost of first buying it when you don't have any other +Buys is rather large, although getting copies becomes much easier and they may be preferred over Gold.
Cost: it's rather loosely defined as a 'card' cost. I did say cards in play could meet a condition and count as a card cost, but here, the cards themselves are only indirectly involved. Like, you could pay 8 Coffers and not use cards at all. So it could be confusing.
Overview: the cost is the biggest design snag for me. I would suggest that a $* cost be more appropriate ('if you have $8 or more this costs $0 (or $X less)'). It might be a neat card for some audiences then, if not too similar to Animal Fair.
emtzalex
(https://i.imgur.com/3VXEeL8h.png)
+: Simple discard for benefit that has a neat scaling effect.
-: it could have the potential to overwhelm with options, but Provinces are a standout favoured target to simplify things.
Cost: pure card cost avoids this gaining itself, and the scaling to Silvers/Golds/kingdom Treasures is potentially neat when draw is limited and picking up 3 Coppers won't happen. Good choice.
Overview: simple design that's quite strongly affected by the presence of draw. Province discarding might be such a standout function that this is actually quite narrow and scripted to most players; this either makes it interesting for working out the high skill potential with other targets, or uninteresting. I can't decide myself.
fika monster
(https://i.imgur.com/m8Pqqxr.png)
+: An extremely cheap cost with a tame effect in engines.
-: terminally pick any card would lend itself to big money over engines, and it might be rather too good at setting up $8 hands by lining Golds and Silvers up.
Cost: it's so cheap that gaining the Heir's Gift itself is the cost, in a way. One can pick up a free double Scheme at the cost of a terminal in the deck. This can be made into a good design premise.
Overview: the on-buy Scheme and the finding any card are two functions this card has, and they are freely available. Put together, I fear money strategies will pick up 4 or 5 Provinces too fast.
Timinou
(https://i.imgur.com/Zu8iDRO.png)
+: Alt VP with a card cost makes for an alternative way to win: trash cards whilst keeping some green around.
-: Shuffle randomness can decide how buyable this is, so one can get a VP lead purely by chance sometimes, but this is true for a lot of card costs.
Cost: pure card cost means this calls for a strategy involving draw and gaining cards to trash, or picking the odd one up at an opportune time. It can pay for itself, which helps cheapen the cost to just the trashing later on.
Overview: I have a similar idea to this in my own folder of designs, which rewards more VP for having few non-Victories in the deck and costs trashing 3 non-Victories from hand. That idea would benefit from being $* cost to be more buyable. This can get away with just the card cost, I think, so it's a solid design.
Daemon, Humility and Mausoleum would all need to reveal the discarded cards with their costs. I haven't penalised for this, though.
Shortlist: Bone Collector, Bribe, Daemon, Humility, Mausoleum.
Runner-up: Mausoleum by Timinou
Winner: Daemon by mxdata
My choice based entirely on mechanics. Mausoleum is very likeable, but the randomness of when buying one is correct was just enough for me to put it behind the winner. Daemon's cost seems safe and interacts nicely with its on-play effect, so it would seem to be the most consistently well-playing entry.
To clear up Chariot Race: each different card cost counts as a different currency, so they can't be compared. If there are two cards with the same card cost (e.g Campsite and a Smithy with '[ ]: discard two Victories...'), then they tie. I.e., pure card costs never win!