Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: werothegreat on January 09, 2017, 02:32:04 pm
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What would you do if someone pulled off an infinite combo on you? Would you resign? And by infinite I don't mean Bishop/Fortress, I mean literally an infinite turn, for example Highway/Goons/Forum/Trader, where you basically just click back and forth between Forum and Trader forever once you've got Goons and enough Highways in play. Would this sort of thing be frowned upon in a tournament or league game? What would be the correct etiquette for that sort of situation?
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Correct etiquette is to not do that in the first place.
Failing that, in an online implementation, it would be neat if the client was programmed to detect such nuisance behavior and provided a warning after say (3) iterations and then after say (5) iterations it forced a choice and if there was some array to choose from did so randomly.
Otherwise I would think the client would need to be able to distinguish between progressive play and reiterative play and start the force resignation timer so long as iterative play continues.
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It's also good etiquette to take a win when you see it, and not fool around unnecessarily. Presumably at some point you'd have won guaranteed.
Also I have no problem with resigning, and will do so, if I think I'm in a totally lost position. And I would certainly resign if my opponent fooled around for unnecessarily long after winning.
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I think the only correct behaviour is to watch your opponent's turn until you starve to death.
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As the player receiving the loss, I would resign after a few clicks made it obvious they knew what they were doing.
As the player doing the combo, I would demonstrate it a few times, then inform them I can do this infinitely and ask them to resign. If they refuse and they can't do the combo themselves, I would probably get some insurmountably large number of points before draining the Forum pile by not reacting anymore. Then any remaining buys would go to the smallest remaining pile - the Highway pile is guaranteed to have no more than 5 cards left in it. I can buy Highway four times in four turns if they really wanna be jerks about it at that point.
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I must be confused about the combo in question. not only do I see how Forum and Trader create a loop but I certainly don't see establishing such a string of actions as being indicative of having a clear upper hand where that person should just win instead.
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Okay, I see the loop. Does it still fire when the silver pile is empty? Seems like the natural end condition of that loop.
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Okay, I see the loop. Does it still fire when the silver pile is empty? Seems like the natural end condition of that loop.
It keeps firing even once the Silver pile is empty, Trader still blocks the Forum gain and then attempts to gain a Silver (but fails).
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I must be confused about the combo in question. not only do I see how Forum and Trader create a loop but I certainly don't see establishing such a string of actions as being indicative of having a clear upper hand where that person should just win instead.
You can keep buying Forums, gaining Silvers (and then nothing after Silvers run out), and getting VP tokens from Goons infinitely as long as Forum costs $0.
IRL, I'd be inclined to use the tournament rules from Magic. Online, it would be ideal if the implementation would have a way to handle situations like these, but otherwise I guess you just have to keep clicking until you have more points than your opponent will be realistically able to get without also pulling off the same combo, because the odds are that he will do it before you can end the game since you now have the entire Silver pile in your deck and he doesn't, and then you lose.
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Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game. The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn. This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion. Well, you know who has the winning strategy in "Name the highest integer"--the last player. "I name your number times two!" So that's how I would resolve it, IRL anyways.
It seems unreasonably convoluted to program software to do it that way. Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?
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Yeah, I initially misunderstood the loop being described. I thought it was more like how you can keep revealing moat an infinite number of times so you do it to just burn the other guy out until he resigns in disgust because the program would see you being active and not force you to resign.
The thing being discussed is a whole different animal.
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This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion.
Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?
Amusingly, these two things are mathematically related!
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I don't know how to do it online, but I would just say that whoever pulled the combo off last before the game ends wins.
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I don't know how to do it online, but I would just say that whoever pulled the combo off last before the game ends wins.
But that assumes that the first person to pull it off ever stops pulling it off.
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This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion.
Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?
Amusingly, these two things are mathematically related!
I am intensely curious and want to learn more.
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This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion.
Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?
Amusingly, these two things are mathematically related!
I am intensely curious and want to learn more.
http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html
Near the end is a discussion of the Busy Beaver problem, which is a variation of the halting problem. It has to do with whether programs will stop and how long, and also generates such ridiculously large numbers that we don't even know what they are.
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Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game. The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn.
I'm not sure about other ways to do this (if there are), but you can easily prevent other players from performing the combo by simply emptying out the Forum pile once you've reached a suitably high number of points, say, twice the possible amount available from Victory cards in the game.
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Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game. The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn.
I'm not sure about other ways to do this (if there are), but you can easily prevent other players from performing the combo by simply emptying out the Forum pile once you've reached a suitably high number of points, say, twice the possible amount available from Victory cards in the game.
You can technically do that if you have Ambassador (and in the most likely scenario you would also need at least two Forums in your deck before your opponnent pulls off the combo). But if Ambassador is not around, I donīt think it would be possible for the opponent to pull of the combo a second time.
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Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game. The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn.
I'm not sure about other ways to do this (if there are), but you can easily prevent other players from performing the combo by simply emptying out the Forum pile once you've reached a suitably high number of points, say, twice the possible amount available from Victory cards in the game.
Plus the total number of VP tokens the opponent could reach in the next four turns due to Goons being around. Yes, that should guarantee a win in a finite amount of time.
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Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game. The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn.
I'm not sure about other ways to do this (if there are), but you can easily prevent other players from performing the combo by simply emptying out the Forum pile once you've reached a suitably high number of points, say, twice the possible amount available from Victory cards in the game.
Plus the total number of VP tokens the opponent could reach in the next four turns due to Goons being around. Yes, that should guarantee a win in a finite amount of time.
Yes it should. As long as you empty the Forum pile.
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I looked up some discussions about infinite combos on MTGO, it seems people usually just have to play out the combo in full there, especially if it's a combo that doesn't end the game immediately, mostly because they have a timer and trying to make your opponent run out of time can be a legitimate strategy sometimes.
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On a related note, their should be a hall of fame for the most points in a game, or even the least points, etc.
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On a related note, their should be a hall of fame for the most points in a game, or even the least points, etc.
Least points possible in a 2-player game is surely 0 plays -10. And I bet that's happened.
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On a related note, their should be a hall of fame for the most points in a game, or even the least points, etc.
Least points possible in a 2-player game is surely 0 plays -10. And I bet that's happened.
All kinds of Landmarks in play make this much much lower.
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On a related note, their should be a hall of fame for the most points in a game, or even the least points, etc.
Least points possible in a 2-player game is surely 0 plays -10. And I bet that's happened.
All kinds of Landmarks in play make this much much lower.
Ah crap, empires. Forgot.
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I looked up some discussions about infinite combos on MTGO, it seems people usually just have to play out the combo in full there, especially if it's a combo that doesn't end the game immediately, mostly because they have a timer and trying to make your opponent run out of time can be a legitimate strategy sometimes.
Um, no, trying to make your opponent run out of time is called Slow Play, and there's a whole infraction procedure for dealing with things like that. When you have an infinite combo, you suggest a shortcut by stating what it is you want to do and how many times, and what the end result will be. Your opponent then can choose to either accept the shortcut, or propose a different action that he would like to do to change what you have proposed. If they don't have anything they can do to change it, they can't just say "no, I don't agree to the shortcut, you must physically play each iteration of your loop".
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I looked up some discussions about infinite combos on MTGO, it seems people usually just have to play out the combo in full there, especially if it's a combo that doesn't end the game immediately, mostly because they have a timer and trying to make your opponent run out of time can be a legitimate strategy sometimes.
Um, no, trying to make your opponent run out of time is called Slow Play, and there's a whole infraction procedure for dealing with things like that. When you have an infinite combo, you suggest a shortcut by stating what it is you want to do and how many times, and what the end result will be. Your opponent then can choose to either accept the shortcut, or propose a different action that he would like to do to change what you have proposed. If they don't have anything they can do to change it, they can't just say "no, I don't agree to the shortcut, you must physically play each iteration of your loop".
I had the same thought at first, but
Magic: the Gathering Online
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I looked up some discussions about infinite combos on MTGO, it seems people usually just have to play out the combo in full there, especially if it's a combo that doesn't end the game immediately, mostly because they have a timer and trying to make your opponent run out of time can be a legitimate strategy sometimes.
Um, no, trying to make your opponent run out of time is called Slow Play, and there's a whole infraction procedure for dealing with things like that. When you have an infinite combo, you suggest a shortcut by stating what it is you want to do and how many times, and what the end result will be. Your opponent then can choose to either accept the shortcut, or propose a different action that he would like to do to change what you have proposed. If they don't have anything they can do to change it, they can't just say "no, I don't agree to the shortcut, you must physically play each iteration of your loop".
I had the same thought at first, but
Magic: the Gathering Online
Ah, yes, I missed the O.
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In a tournament game, call a judge and have him break the infinity. Perhaps even call the game as a win for that player if that's what he's set up to do.
Hmm, I wonder if in a digital version, it's possible to crash the program? Perhaps you score so high in VP tokens the game can't handle it? I've done that in the Ascension app... getting 3K+ honor (aka victory points in tokens), and the game gets sluggish.
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In a tournament game, call a judge and have him break the infinity. Perhaps even call the game as a win for that player if that's what he's set up to do.
Hmm, I wonder if in a digital version, it's possible to crash the program? Perhaps you score so high in VP tokens the game can't handle it? I've done that in the Ascension app... getting 3K+ honor (aka victory points in tokens), and the game gets sluggish.
What I'd expect is that you can probably do an integer overflow, but that wouldn't crash the game, it would just be hilarious.
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In a tournament game, call a judge and have him break the infinity. Perhaps even call the game as a win for that player if that's what he's set up to do.
Hmm, I wonder if in a digital version, it's possible to crash the program? Perhaps you score so high in VP tokens the game can't handle it? I've done that in the Ascension app... getting 3K+ honor (aka victory points in tokens), and the game gets sluggish.
The new Dominion game does slow down as you get more VPs already... whenever I build a crazy Goons engine; and I'm buying 30+ Coppers with 10 Goons in play on the last turn, each buy takes a little longer than the previous one to resolve so I can click again. When it was first launched I would have problems with this crashing when I spent my last buy, but that hasn't happened recently.