Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: hiraku on June 29, 2016, 10:04:35 am
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questions:
1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
2)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village during Possession Turn, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
3)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Fortress, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
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questions:
1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
2)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village during Possession Turn, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
3)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Fortress, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
"You" can't do that for #2. Do you mean if you have your Estate token on Village, and you play a Possession, and then on your opponent's turn you make him play Ironworks to gain an Estate? If so, then the answer is "no bonus". The Blue Dog rule is in effect here, Inheritance doesn't change it at all. (The person whose turn it is, the possessed player, never gained anything because of the would-gain, so when Ironworks checks the types of the gained card, there's no "gained card" to check, so no bonus).
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questions:
1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
2)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village during Possession Turn, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
3)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Fortress, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
I think the answer to both 1 and 3 is +1 card and +1 action as Ironworks gained a card (which was only subsequently trashed by Watchtower) that had types Victory and Action, but I have to confess that this answer is off the top of my head without stopping to look at the precise wording on either Ironworks or Watchtower.
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questions:
1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
2)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village during Possession Turn, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
3)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Fortress, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
1) You get +1 Action, +1 Card and the estate-village ends up in the trash (which is then a regular estate.)
2) Nothing
3) You +1 Action, +1 Card and an estate-as-fortress in your hand.
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questions:
1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
2)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village during Possession Turn, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
3)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Fortress, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
"You" can't do that for #2. Do you mean if you have your Estate token on Village, and you play a Possession, and then on your opponent's turn you make him play Ironworks to gain an Estate? If so, then the answer is "no bonus". The Blue Dog rule is in effect here, Inheritance doesn't change it at all. (The person whose turn it is, the possessed player, never gained anything because of the would-gain, so when Ironworks checks the types of the gained card, there's no "gained card" to check, so no bonus).
Oh, I mean that possessed player is "you". I forgot Possession's would-gain.
Then, how about this one?:
4) If possessed player trashes Estate-as-Village by Transmute, which bonus does he/her get?
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Then, how about this one?:
4) If possessed player trashes Estate-as-Village by Transmute, which bonus does he/her get?
Duchy and Gold, which the Possessor gains instead. Possession doesn't make a difference for the trashing part here. The card was indeed trashed, and it was an Action-Victory.
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Then, how about this one?:
4) If possessed player trashes Estate-as-Village by Transmute, which bonus does he/her get?
Duchy and Gold, which the Possessor gains instead. Possession doesn't make a difference for the trashing part here. The card was indeed trashed, and it was an Action-Victory.
Actually no. Donald has said that you just get a Gold. Transmute says "if it is an..." and at that point it's just an Estate.
But you're right that Possession doesn't make a difference for the trashing part. The Estate is trashed, then set aside. Then you gain a Gold, which the Possessor gains instead.
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Then, how about this one?:
4) If possessed player trashes Estate-as-Village by Transmute, which bonus does he/her get?
Duchy and Gold, which the Possessor gains instead. Possession doesn't make a difference for the trashing part here. The card was indeed trashed, and it was an Action-Victory.
Actually no. Donald has said that you just get a Gold. Transmute says "if it is an..." and at that point it's just an Estate.
But you're right that Possession doesn't make a difference for the trashing part. The Estate is trashed, then set aside. Then you gain a Gold, which the Possessor gains instead.
Oh, my bad then. I guess the tense matters here.
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1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
So, based on the Transmute ruling, I would think you only get +1 Card in this situation.
...Not that anyone would ever do this...
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1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
So, based on the Transmute ruling, I would think you only get +1 Card in this situation.
...Not that anyone would ever do this...
Hmm... It looks like you're right. That changes the answers to both question 1 and 3.
Edit: No, just question 1.
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1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
So, based on the Transmute ruling, I would think you only get +1 Card in this situation.
...Not that anyone would ever do this...
Hmm... It looks like you're right. That changes the answers to both question 1 and 3.
Yet Donald +1d Adrian's answers.... I don't see a wording difference between Ironworks and Transmute though. But the timing it sort of different, Transmute knows that that card will end up in the trash, so that's where it looks for answers. Ironworks, on the other hand, doesn't expect the card to be in the trash, so it assumes it's getting it's data from the card as it was when it was gained. Could work as an explanation...
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On everything else, doesn't "it" refer to what "it" is at the moment that instruction is resolved? (Procession->BoM gains an Action costing $6) It shouldn't matter where "it" is because Lose Track only applies to things that you are trying to move.
I'm not sure how that would change the answer to #3, because the Estate-Fortress went to your hand, and "it" is still an Action and a Victory. It only changes back to just Victory if it stays in the trash as in example #1.
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1)If you Ironworks Estate-inherited-to-Village, then reveal Watchtower to trash it , which bonus do you get?
So, based on the Transmute ruling, I would think you only get +1 Card in this situation.
...Not that anyone would ever do this...
Hmm... It looks like you're right. That changes the answers to both question 1 and 3.
Yes, you look at the card when you get to resolving that sentence on Ironworks, and this is a weird case where it isn't the same types as when you gained it.
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Wait, so…what are the rulings on the inherited Village case and the inherited Fortress cases?
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I think Deadlock39 is right. That means the answers are:
1) +1 Card -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
2) Nothing -- the Estate wasn't gained.
3) +1 Card, +1 Action -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card in your hand.
4) A Gold -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
4) A Gold and a Duchy -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card set aside. (Correction after subsequent posts.)
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On everything else, doesn't "it" refer to what "it" is at the moment that instruction is resolved?
Judging by the following from the Empires Rulebook thread:
Sorry; I guess I'm being slow, but I can't tell for sure from your response: does that mean Ritual should be interpreted as checking the cost of the card in the past (i.e. at the time of trashing)?
Since it says "cost" instead of "costs," it goes by what the card cost then, not what it costs now. If this causes a problem I will switch it but having not given it any thought yet, that's how it works.
it seems like it's not so much that "it" refers to an object at a specific moment in time, but that the tense of the verb used implies a moment in time where the object's properties matter: now for present tense or at some hopefully obvious time in the past for past tense. Since most things use present tense like "is" or "costs," most things look at an object's properties now. That's my understanding, anyway.
Aside from Ritual, the other thing I'm aware of that looks at properties in the past is Treasure Map, because although it says "do"...
Treasure Map should say "did" to be clearer that it wants to look at the past.
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I think Deadlock39 is right. That means the answers are:
1) +1 Card -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
2) Nothing -- the Estate wasn't gained.
3) +1 Card, +1 Action -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card in your hand.
4) A Gold -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
These are correct.
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I think Deadlock39 is right. That means the answers are:
1) +1 Card -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
2) Nothing -- the Estate wasn't gained.
3) +1 Card, +1 Action -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card in your hand.
4) A Gold -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
These are correct.
4) I think the Estate is set-asided. Is it still just a Victory card? Doesn't this matter?
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I think Deadlock39 is right. That means the answers are:
1) +1 Card -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
2) Nothing -- the Estate wasn't gained.
3) +1 Card, +1 Action -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card in your hand.
4) A Gold -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
These are correct.
4) I think the Estate is set-asided. Is it still just a Victory card? Doesn't this matter?
I'm inclined to agree with you. I think the Estate should become yours again when it gets set aside from the trash, as opposed to waiting until it goes to your discard pile. This is mostly because the card that Inheritance itself set aside when you bought it became yours when you set it aside, so it seems that the act of setting aside a card that isn't yours makes that card yours.
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I think Deadlock39 is right. That means the answers are:
1) +1 Card -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
2) Nothing -- the Estate wasn't gained.
3) +1 Card, +1 Action -- the Estate is an Action-Victory card in your hand.
4) A Gold -- the Estate is a Victory card in the trash.
These are correct.
4) I think the Estate is set-asided. Is it still just a Victory card? Doesn't this matter?
I'm included to agree with you. I think the Estate should become yours again when it gets set aside from the trash, as opposed to waiting until it goes to your discard pile. This is mostly because the card that Inheritance itself set aside when you bought it became yours when you set it aside, so it seems that the act of setting aside a card that isn't yours makes that card yours.
Very tentatively, a trashed inherited-something Estate set aside due to Possession is still yours (and thus still whatever types). Adventures says a card stops being yours when it's trashed, but doesn't address this situation anyway. You don't "gain" it when putting it into your discard pile.
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That makes sense to me, but that raises another question:
5) I possess you. "You" trash two treasure maps, setting them aside. Are they still trashed, counting for the "if you do" clause? And if so, then
6) The treasure map either a) loses track of the golds, or b) never technically gains them, but either way they go to my discard pile, not your deck, correct?
I'm pretty sure I'm right about the second one, but not as sure about the answer for the first.
Edit: Spelling
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That makes sense to me, but that raises another question:
5) I possess you. "You" trash two Treasure_Map (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure_Map)s, setting them aside. Are they still trashed, counting for the "if you do" clause? And if so, then
6) The treasure map either a) loses track of the golds, or b) never technically gains them, but either way they go to my discard pile, not your deck, correct?
I'm pretty sure I'm right about the second one, but not as sure about the answer for the first.
5. Quoted earlier in this thread, Treasure Map's intended meaning is "did", not "do", what matters is if you trashed 2 Treasure Maps or not. What happened to them after you trashed them has no bearing on the situation whatsoever.
6. Not sure what you mean by losing track of the Golds here, as nothing is trying to move the Golds. Treasure Map normally is "gain 4 Golds to the top of your deck", and that is replaced because of the would-gain; instead your opponent gains 4 Golds (to s discard pile, because Possession doesn't say otherwise).
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That makes sense to me, but that raises another question:
5) I possess you. "You" trash two Treasure_Map (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure_Map)s, setting them aside. Are they still trashed, counting for the "if you do" clause? And if so, then
6) The treasure map either a) loses track of the golds, or b) never technically gains them, but either way they go to my discard pile, not your deck, correct?
I'm pretty sure I'm right about the second one, but not as sure about the answer for the first.
5. Quoted earlier in this thread, Treasure Map's intended meaning is "did", not "do", what matters is if you trashed 2 Treasure Maps or not. What happened to them after you trashed them has no bearing on the situation whatsoever.
6. Not sure what you mean by losing track of the Golds here, as nothing is trying to move the Golds. Treasure Map normally is "gain 4 Golds to the top of your deck", and that is replaced because of the would-gain; instead your opponent gains 4 Golds (to s discard pile, because Possession doesn't say otherwise).
Sorry, wasn't exactly sure about the interactions between the gain to top and would gain, and that is the reason I brought up the lose track rule. As for 5, I couldn't remember if possession read as set aside instead, so that it was never trashed to begin with, or when trashed, set aside.
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Wow, I haven't been wrong that many times in one thread.
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Watchtower trashes, afaik, after gaining, no?
So I am confused why you don't get +1 card, +1 action?
Or does it trash before gaining?
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Watchtower trashes, afaik, after gaining, no?
So I am confused why you don't get +1 card, +1 action?
Or does it trash before gaining?
No, you're right. But Ironworks has two instructions: 1) Gain a card, 2) Get bonus based on the card's type(s).
And Watchtower trashes immediately after gaining, so right after #1.
Transmute and Watchtower works the same way.
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I find that very counterintuitive, though.
You get two if you gain. You gain, so you should get both action/card and then you trash.
That said, the ruling is different, but it's not the one that makes sense in my head.
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I find that very counterintuitive, though.
You get two if you gain. You gain, so you should get both action/card and then you trash.
That said, the ruling is different, but it's not the one that makes sense in my head.
This is what happens
1. Card is gained
2. look at card, determine bonuses, and apply them
When Watchtower is reacted, it occurs when you gain the card. The new order is this.
1. Card is gained.
2. Watchtower trashes the card.
3. Card is looked at, bonuses determined and applied.
You don't finish resolving a card before reactions to events triggered by the card occur. That would make no sense and things like Moat wouldn't work then. You react "just in time", and the reaction occurs immediately when the event that triggers it happens.
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I find that very counterintuitive, though.
You get two if you gain. You gain, so you should get both action/card and then you trash.
That said, the ruling is different, but it's not the one that makes sense in my head.
That's not how Dominion works though. Triggered stuff can interrupt. You don't just resolve the whole ability first and then do the thing that was triggered. For instance, from the Dark Ages rulebook:
"When you trash" abilities happen directly after the card is put into the trash, and can function in the middle of resolving effects for an Action card; for example, if a player plays Graverobber and uses it to trash a Cultist, he first draws three cards for trashing Cultist, then continues with resolving Graverobber and gains a card costing up to $8.
In that example, Cultist ("when you trash") interrupts Graverobber and draws cards.
In our case, Watchtower ("when you gain") interrupts Ironworks and trashes the card.
(An unrelated question is whether Ironworks cares about whatever it was that you trashed, or what that card is now, and the ruling is that it cares about what the card is now.)
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That's the weird part: it ought to care about what you gained, regardless of it being in the trash by now.
But the ruling is different, fair znough.
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That's the weird part: it ought to care about what you gained, regardless of it being in the trash by now.
But the ruling is different, fair znough.
The key here, is that Ironworks says "if it is an..." and not "if it was an..." It does care about what you gained, but it cares about what it is now, not what it was when you gained it.
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That's the weird part: it ought to care about what you gained, regardless of it being in the trash by now.
But the ruling is different, fair znough.
The weird part is that a card changed types, in the middle of you doing something no less.
Ironworks simply isn't phrased to take that kind of craziness into account.
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Fair enough! :)