Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:50:30 am

Title: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:50:30 am: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/1c/Cellar.jpg)

It's no Warehouse, but...

-How good of a sifter is Cellar? Is it overlooked?
-Any Engine uses?
-Any other uses for Cellar, besides Tunnel activation?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Awaclus on April 02, 2016, 11:52:14 am: It's worse than Warehouse.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on April 02, 2016, 11:52:28 am: Quote from: Awaclus on April 02, 2016, 11:52:14 am
It's worse than Warehouse.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:53:41 am: Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on April 02, 2016, 11:52:28 am
Quote from: Awaclus on April 02, 2016, 11:52:14 am
It's worse than Warehouse.

Quote from: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:50:30 am
It's no Warehouse, but...

...but it's also cheaper.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on April 02, 2016, 12:01:31 pm: Quote from: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:53:41 am
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on April 02, 2016, 11:52:28 am
Quote from: Awaclus on April 02, 2016, 11:52:14 am
It's worse than Warehouse.

Quote from: Seprix on April 02, 2016, 11:50:30 am
It's no Warehouse, but...
The difference between $2 and $3 is significantly less than the difference between $3 and $4 or $4 and $5.

...but it's also cheaper.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: J Reggie on April 02, 2016, 12:13:00 pm: In some decks it can be a lot better than warehouse, especially with a lot of draw and no trashing, since you get better control over how many cards you discard. This can help you not trigger bad shuffles and such.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: jsh357 on April 02, 2016, 12:38:19 pm: I like Cellar. It's a simple card that adds a fair amount of depth to a board when you know how to play it. Cellar, like most cards, is something you should only get for a good reason. It's just more pronounced with Cellar because it's so easy to misplay and tempting to buy willy-nilly at $2.
- It's a useful card for setting up reshuffles since you can choose an exact number of cards to filter. Say you draw most of your deck, but have 6 cards left. You might choose to cycle 6 more, not caring what you draw, and get to your purchases more quickly.
- It's good in junking games where you also have nonterminal draw or the equivalent.
- It's weaker in games with handsize attacks and no strong draw options.
- It's bad when you are discarding weak cards like Copper and getting weaker things like Estate, so you should have a pretty good idea what you are going to draw before you play it. Often it's good to hang on to Coppers if you need the coin instead of risking it.
- It's a solid target for +Card tokens, though you may have something better. I would probably only do this if you have a cheap +buy option and can easily stockpile Cellars.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: AdrianHealey on April 02, 2016, 12:48:21 pm: Better than scout, though
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on April 02, 2016, 01:21:12 pm: Quote from: AdrianHealey on April 02, 2016, 12:48:21 pm
Better than scout, though
Actually it combos pretty nicely with scout. Draw junk cards then exchange them for good cards!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on April 02, 2016, 01:54:39 pm: Quote from: AdrianHealey on April 02, 2016, 12:48:21 pm
Better than scout, though
You get an 'A' for effort, but I have no idea how you could've come to that crazy conclusion.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: ehunt on April 02, 2016, 01:58:10 pm: Cellar is at its best in an engine. One of the few times it's better than warehouse is in a low-trashing high-draw deck where you can draw lots of cards, but have one key card that you want to get to. Alchemist comes to mind, but is not the only example.

In a base-only game with an otherwise engine board but not chapel, it's a great pickup (on such a board you usually need remodel or workshop to make the engine viable, either of which can pick up a cellar for you).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: McGarnacle on April 02, 2016, 02:16:44 pm: Cellar works well with Counting House (not a great combo). It is also viable with both Menagerie and Hunting Party.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: funkdoc on April 02, 2016, 02:19:28 pm: i always think of cellar being big with governor & envoy. advisor to a lesser extent, though that's tougher because you need to trigger the reshuffle before playing it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Davio on April 02, 2016, 02:21:14 pm: Cellar is that $2 card where you go "meh, might as well get a Cellar".
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: werothegreat on April 02, 2016, 02:22:19 pm: Quote from: Davio on April 02, 2016, 02:21:14 pm
Cellar is that $2 card where you go "meh, might as well get a Cellar".

No, that's Pearl Diver. Cellar actually has some legitimate uses.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: DG on April 02, 2016, 04:59:58 pm: Quote from: Davio on April 02, 2016, 02:21:14 pm
Cellar is that $2 card where you go "meh, might as well get a Cellar".

That's the worst way to play a cellar. When you really do want a cellar it could well be as good as, if not better than a warehouse since a cellar can draw an unlimited number of cards. All you need to do is have a lot of cards to discard.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Doom_Shark on April 02, 2016, 06:19:59 pm: My very first time playing dominion was with my brother, who had also never played before, and an experienced player. Somehow, don't remember how, I got a pretty good engine going with cellar, considering at the time I had no idea the worth of a village. Wasn't getting me any provinces, mind you, but hey, I tried.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: McGarnacle on April 02, 2016, 06:23:55 pm: Vault is so much better because it gives you coins instead of cards. Coins guarantee something nice (In Vault's case, at least a gold) but cellar might just draw you worse cards then you started with. It can be nice with big hands, though.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Titandrake on April 02, 2016, 08:24:10 pm: Cellar is the glue that keeps Base game engines together. (Try playing the First Game engine while never picking up a Cellar. It's a lot more painful than it sounds.)

On occasions (usually Festival/Library games) I have happily bought Cellar for $3 or even $4. It's a decent card, not amazing and not awful.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: liopoil on April 02, 2016, 09:23:06 pm: Cellar is particularly good with draw-to-X cards, such as watchtower. It not only decreases your handsize, but also gets rid of those cards you otherwise wouldn't have a way of getting out of your hand before playing your draw-to-X card, such as Watchtower.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Doom_Shark on April 03, 2016, 12:20:56 am: Quote from: liopoil on April 02, 2016, 09:23:06 pm
Cellar is particularly good with draw-to-X cards, such as watchtower. It not only decreases your handsize, but also gets rid of those cards you otherwise wouldn't have a way of getting out of your hand before playing your draw-to-X card, such as Watchtower.
Library. That's the base set card you're looking for.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Davio on April 03, 2016, 03:18:46 am: Quote from: Titandrake on April 02, 2016, 08:24:10 pm
Cellar is the glue that keeps Base game engines together. (Try playing the First Game engine while never picking up a Cellar. It's a lot more painful than it sounds.)

On occasions (usually Festival/Library games) I have happily bought Cellar for $3 or even $4. It's a decent card, not amazing and not awful.
Not amazing and not awful is exactly what you try to achieve as a card designer.
So I guess it's a perfectly designed card?

Strategy in Dominion should come from combining cards in novel ways, not from individual cards.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Base Set Cards: Cellar
Post by: Chris is me on April 03, 2016, 09:24:23 am: Cellar is basically a perfect $2. It's not an automatic buy and it's a trap if you have like five of them generally, but it has an actually useful effect that you'll welcome in some decks.

It's obvious why Warehouse is better - you have basically twice as much choice in what cards to keep - but Warehouse costs more and isn't always there so whatever!

It's there. You buy one sometimes. It's nice to have, every once in awhile you would have a dud turn but instead you're like "thanks Cellar, you saved my hand"!