Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: theright555J on March 10, 2016, 08:49:13 am

Title: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: theright555J on March 10, 2016, 08:49:13 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/76/Ironworks.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ironworks) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/20/Apprentice.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apprentice) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/10/Duke.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duke) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/13/Graverobber.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Graverobber) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/60/Saboteur.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/22/Transmute.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Transmute) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d6/Poor_House.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Poor House) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/79/Scrying_Pool.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scrying Pool) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/b/b4/Storeroom.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Storeroom) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8a/Fortress.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortress)
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Transmute, Poor House, Scrying Pool, Storeroom, Fortress, Ironworks, Apprentice, Duke, Graverobber, Saboteur
Game Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160309/log.0.1457561553907.txt (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160309/log.0.1457561553907.txt)

This was perhaps the first randomly-generated kingdom I've seen where I was like "whoa, Transmute is actually a thing here!"

The idea is to get a bunch of Scrying Pools, then thin down and Transmute Fortress into Duchy and ultimately discard cards with Storeroom for cash to get Dukes.  Transmute has the added benefit of being drawable with SP, converting coppers into more Transmutes (read: also can be drawn with SP), and being a +Buy potion target when the SP's are gone.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Davio on March 10, 2016, 08:55:13 am
I rarely pick up a Potion just to get Transmute (as in never), but here you have your Potion for SP anyway, so throwing in an opportune Transmute can be pretty good.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: faust on March 10, 2016, 11:43:59 am
I don't think you can really pull off the Duke thing here (and the game log confirms that you didn't) because the game will just end on piles before that becomes viable. That said, Transmute has some utility here to gain cheap Duchies in the late game, and to trash Coppers a bit earlier.

On another note, I think I prefer opening Silver/Potion or maybe Silver/Ironworks here to Storeroom. It's just so important to get that Apprentice early.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: theright555J on March 10, 2016, 12:12:32 pm
Quote from: faust on March 10, 2016, 11:43:59 am
On another note, I think I prefer opening Silver/Potion or maybe Silver/Ironworks here to Storeroom. It's just so important to get that Apprentice early.

Yeah, I see that, except that storeroom is so great for whipping the potion around quickly and getting multiple SPs...Maybe a "pure" Apprentice/Fortress thing without scrying pool is better than going for a bunch of pools in the first place? I could see that.  And in the OP I was going to mention that Dukes never were even needed.  I was about halfway through that last turn before I realized I could just pile out right there.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Kirian on March 10, 2016, 12:23:52 pm
No.

(Actually looks at game description.)

No.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 10, 2016, 12:33:47 pm
It certainly looks like Transmute could be useful for scoring points here as piles run out.

The dream would be to do the Storeroom discarding actions and redraw them with SP thing, but I would guess that the piles run before you can trash enough with Apprentice. I would still try to head that way myself and see if you can get there.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Dingan on March 10, 2016, 12:49:45 pm
Quote from: Mic Qsenoch on March 10, 2016, 12:33:47 pm
It certainly looks like Transmute could be useful for scoring points here as piles run out.

The dream would be to do the Storeroom discarding actions and redraw them with SP thing, but I would guess that the piles run before you can trash enough with Apprentice. I would still try to head that way myself and see if you can get there.

How would piles run out here?  Scrying Pool, Fortress, and... Apprentice?  By using Graverobber to turn Fortresses into Apprentices?  I don't quite understand.  Or maybe Estates, from Ironworks?

I agree you want pile control and don't see Duchy/Duke coming into play at all.  But I do see the potential for mass-drawing w/ SP and Apprentice/Fortress and mass-Province-gaining w/ Graverobber.  I would probably open Potion/Storeroom, then pick up an Ironworks, then go for Apprentices.  I would probably not get a Transmute unless my deck was already really strong and the SPs were out.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on March 10, 2016, 12:54:06 pm
Quote from: Dingan on March 10, 2016, 12:49:45 pm
How would piles run out here?  Scrying Pool, Fortress, and... Apprentice?  By using Graverobber to turn Fortresses into Apprentices?  I don't quite understand.  Or maybe Estates, from Ironworks?

The piles run out the way they ran out in the log. Both players probably want an Ironworks or two and then with all this draw it's no problem to empty the rest of the IW in a single turn.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Witherweaver on March 10, 2016, 01:15:08 pm
There is like an orgy of stuff to do on this board, and I feel like you could play it many different times and have each game go differently.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Seprix on March 10, 2016, 02:40:25 pm
Quote from: Witherweaver on March 10, 2016, 01:15:08 pm
There is like an orgy of stuff to do on this board, and I feel like you could play it many different times and have each game go differently.

I don't see that. Scrying Pool is obvious, and then from there you want to get thin ASAP. From there, it's a race to a 3-pile.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: terminalCopper on March 12, 2016, 03:47:07 am
Usually, when I skip Pool, I regret it, but this time, I believe there is something faster.

On the one hand, "first go for pools, then get thin ASAP" takes an eternity. Pools will take a very, very long time to become better than apprentice-fortress. And here is how I would like to set up the latter:

- open Ironworks/Storeroom
- get Fortresses on 4/with IW, a second Storeroom on 3, grab Poor House alongside
- with 5 (which is achievable via Fortress-Storeroom-Poor House), get Apprentices

With massive draw power, discard for coins with Storeroom+3PoorHouses get me quickly to 21, which is double prov plus apprentice to keep the engine alive.

Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Seprix on March 12, 2016, 04:49:07 pm
Quote from: terminalCopper on March 12, 2016, 03:47:07 am
Usually, when I skip Pool, I regret it, but this time, I believe there is something faster.

On the one hand, "first go for pools, then get thin ASAP" takes an eternity. Pools will take a very, very long time to become better than apprentice-fortress. And here is how I would like to set up the latter:

- open Ironworks/Storeroom
- get Fortresses on 4/with IW, a second Storeroom on 3, grab Poor House alongside
- with 5 (which is achievable via Fortress-Storeroom-Poor House), get Apprentices

With massive draw power, discard for coins with Storeroom+3PoorHouses get me quickly to 21, which is double prov plus apprentice to keep the engine alive.

I'd like to see this versus Pool strategy, because that also sounds very good.
Title: Re: Is Transmute Actually Good Here?
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on March 12, 2016, 04:56:26 pm
Fortess-Apprentice looks amazing here.