Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Rafy235 on August 30, 2015, 05:35:46 pm
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Having had your fair share of imported meats, you, a competent ruler of appreciable might, are finally sick of their rich and pompous marketing. You've had enough of outrageous prices
for their sub-par lamb chops and ordinary tasting chicken. Thus you begin to invest in livestock. Pastures filled with living stock, the economy would riot over your genius innovation. It is more appealing than towns filled with dead stock, and your butchers are bored anyway.
Dominion: Pasturelands is a fan made expansion focusing upon live looters like dark ages, but with more emphasis.
Cow
Cost 4$
Action-Livestock
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Coin
You may place this on your pasture mat.
Pig
Cost 3$
Action-Livestock
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash 2 cards from your hand. Gain a card costing half of the combined price of the two card.
Chicken
Cost 2$
Action-Livestock
+2 Actions
You may place this on your pasture mat.
--------------------------------------------
You may keep this on your pasture mat
when gaining goods from it.
Sheep
Cost 5$
Action-Livestock
+1 Action
You may decrease your buys by any number of points.
For each one, +3 coins.
You may place this on your pasture mat.
Rooster
Cost 2$
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have no actions left,
you may discard this from your hand to play it for free.
Mule
Cost 3$
Action
+2 Buys
Farmdog
Cost 3$
Action-Duration
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck.
If it is a livestock card, put it on your pasture mat.
Otherwise, you may discard it, trash it, or put it back.
Shepherd
Cost 5$
Action
Choose One:
Put up to 3 livestock cards from your discard pile onto your pasture mat
OR
Put two cards from your discard pile on top of your deck.
Pastureland
Cost 6$
Victory
Worth 1 for each card on your pasture mat.
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In games using this, add two extra Livestock cards to the supply pile.
Spices
Cost 2$
Action
All of your goods cost one more until the end
of your turn.
----------------------------
Use this if there are any livestock cards in the supply pile,
putting it with the base treasures.
Ranch
Cost 4$
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may discard a livestock card from your hand. If you do,
+ 2 Cards
Sale
Event
3$
You may trash as many goods cards as you like from your discard pile and hand. Gain
golds equal to the total cost of the trashed cards.
Water Wheel
Action-Reaction
(Ideas?)
Possibilities include doubling goods, being a possible start card,
or even another reaction victory.
Milk
Goods
Cost 2$
Wool
Goods
Cost 3$
Eggs
Goods
Cost 1$
Cheese
Goods
Cost 5$
Additional rules:
At the start of your turn, discard all cards on your pasture mat, gaining goods corresponding to the discarded cards.
i.e. Cow = Milk.
I really like mats and cards that feature animals like rats and magpies. So I decided to combine the two,
and this is the product. Like alchemy, it works best when these cards make up the majority of the kingdom.
Feel free to leave any wording fixes, critiques, or ideas you have for the set!
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Some comments:
In general the goods mechanism sounds good and I like your idea of another Shelter-esque Estate substitute.
Cow is far too cheap, it should probably cost 7 or 8.
I like Sheep, converting extra buys into coins is an interesting idea.
Rooster is a nice Herald variant.
Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
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Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
Edge Case: Tunnel.
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Some comments:
In general the goods mechanism sounds good and I like your idea of another Shelter-esque Estate substitute.
Cow is far too cheap, it should probably cost 7 or 8.
I like Sheep, converting extra buys into coins is an interesting idea.
Rooster is a nice Herald variant.
Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
Thanks for the critique!
As 7-8 for a cow makes it inferior to other livestock options, will +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Coin
fix the issue?
I'll need to play test sheep to make sure the trade off is balanced, but I'm glad I'm not the only one
who finds the idea intriguing.
The concept is it fixes the issue of being stuck with a terminal draw card in your hand.
For Mule, how does +2 Buys sound? This gives it synergy with sheep, as well as being a solid buy supplier
in action stacking.
Once again, thanks for the help, I'll be sure to add and fix more through play-testing.
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Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
Edge Case: Tunnel.
Though considering that Market Square has it's own gold gaining reaction that is much easier to pull off, this doesn't merit it costing 3.
Because tunnel is so situational, it just isn't valid enough. Though that's probably what you meant by edge case, so sorry if I didn't pick up on that.
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Some comments:
In general the goods mechanism sounds good and I like your idea of another Shelter-esque Estate substitute.
Cow is far too cheap, it should probably cost 7 or 8.
I like Sheep, converting extra buys into coins is an interesting idea.
Rooster is a nice Herald variant.
Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
Thanks for the critique!
As 7-8 for a cow makes it inferior to other livestock options, will +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Coin
fix the issue?
I'll need to play test sheep to make sure the trade off is balanced, but I'm glad I'm not the only one
who finds the idea intriguing.
The concept is it fixes the issue of being stuck with a terminal draw card in your hand.
For Mule, how does +2 Buys sound? This gives it synergy with sheep, as well as being a solid buy supplier
in action stacking.
Once again, thanks for the help, I'll be sure to add and fix more through play-testing.
I guess most people would say that a Peddler is worth 4 and the livestock option probably isn't worth a price increase of 1 (you do after all take the card out of your deck if I understand the mechanism correctly) so I'd say 4 sounds good for the Cow.
About Mule, the synergy with Sheep is nice but without Sheep two extra buys are a bit dubious as you often only want one extra buy. Unless there is stuff wlike Peddler or Fool's Gold on the board or you have a middlegame situation in which you still build up your engine with 10-12 coins for 3 actions cards I cannot imagine a situation in which two extra buys are useful.
I don't think it is per se bad but it is one of those tricky, mined Dominion territories (like cantrip attacks).
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You might want to add a reaction card in, those are fun.
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Some comments:
In general the goods mechanism sounds good and I like your idea of another Shelter-esque Estate substitute.
Cow is far too cheap, it should probably cost 7 or 8.
I like Sheep, converting extra buys into coins is an interesting idea.
Rooster is a nice Herald variant.
Mule was already done on this site as Pauper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3984) and I think that 1 (or 2) is an appropriate price. It certainly cannot cost 3 as it is strictely inferior to Market Square.
Thanks for the critique!
As 7-8 for a cow makes it inferior to other livestock options, will +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Coin
fix the issue?
I'll need to play test sheep to make sure the trade off is balanced, but I'm glad I'm not the only one
who finds the idea intriguing.
The concept is it fixes the issue of being stuck with a terminal draw card in your hand.
For Mule, how does +2 Buys sound? This gives it synergy with sheep, as well as being a solid buy supplier
in action stacking.
Once again, thanks for the help, I'll be sure to add and fix more through play-testing.
I guess most people would say that a Peddler is worth 4 and the livestock option probably isn't worth a price increase of 1 (you do after all take the card out of your deck if I understand the mechanism correctly) so I'd say 4 sounds good for the Cow.
About Mule, the synergy with Sheep is nice but without Sheep two extra buys are a bit dubious as you often only want one extra buy. Unless there is stuff wlike Peddler or Fool's Gold on the board or you have a middlegame situation in which you still build up your engine with 10-12 coins for 3 actions cards I cannot imagine a situation in which two extra buys are useful.
I don't think it is per se bad but it is one of those tricky, mined Dominion territories (like cantrip attacks).
I see your point with mule.
2 buys on one card is great for things like highway, or other cards that give you coins, are cantrips, but lack buys. This way in one terminal action, you get two buys.
At the same time, two buys might be superfluous and thus not worth it due to opportunity cost. I think I'll change it to two buys for now, and give it some well deserved play testing.
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You might want to add a reaction card in, those are fun.
I want Water Wheel to be a reaction card, do you have any good ideas for it?
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As people have allready pointed out, Cow is almost as Good as Grand Market, a card which costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) with a very harsh buying restriction. If you changed it to only +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png), nothing actually stops you. It should be noted though that a card that just gives +1 Card, +1 Action, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) is usually considered worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). People here refer to that as Peddler sometimes, allthough the actually existing card Peddler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler) costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Coin8star.png/16px-Coin8star.png). A term that's less confusing probably is "cantrip money". Either way, there is no official card at that price point, so it's not like Cow with only one coin would be strictly better than an existing card. It will make some people feel it's too good, though.
Pig is interesting. It's cantrip trashing, but it reduces your hand size by two. Might still be rather good.
I don't really get what the goods do. Do they anything? Currently they don't seem to have any use. I mean, without any use for a card like Egg, Chicken is just a Necropolis and strictly worse than Native Village. I know you said Livestock cards should make a decent part of the kingdom, but you really shouldn't make cards that are only worthwile if other cards from the same expansion are there. Chicken is kind of the Scout of this set.
I would argue Sheep is incredibly hard to track. Again i don't really get the point with goods.
Noooo... Don't make a reaction on drawing a card, like Rooster. Your hand is a secret to people. Nobody can check whether a Rooster you play is the card you just drew. It's not in the rules. It's extremely easy to cheat here, and, dare i say, it's also weird mechanically. Not to mention with the current wording, Rooster arguably doesn't take up an action to play if you draw it (so you can use terminal draw to activate it), helps activate other Roosters and has an activateable effect that's better than a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) card. If Rooster said "You may play a Rooster from your hand. If you do: +1 Card", that would be an entirely different thing. But, thinking of it, also a different card.
Because of Mule, a note about edge cases: Whenever somebody in this forum makes a general claim, people will try to think of a way to make sure he's proven wrong. It doesn't matter how absurd or irrelevant the edge case is. For example, i might say the fact that Throne Room (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room) says "play an Action card from your hand twice" isn't different than "you may play an action card from your hand twice", because you wouldn't play it if you don't want to play the other card, people will jump out of bushes at all sides and say "Edge case: Conspirator (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Conspirator)!" or "Edge case: Golem (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Golem)!". Either way, edge cases shouldn't be considered when you think about whether a card that says "discard a card" is worse than one that doesn't. Unless of course, the card itself does something that profits from you discarding things.
So yeah, Mule is worse than Market Square and probably too weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png). As (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png), (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) are basically equally easy to aquire, it doesn't seem to be a card that would be bought at all.
Farmdog is kind of a mix between Spy and Lookout. I think it might be okay, even though cantrip trashing is strong. The fact you don't know what you'll hit nerfs this enough, i think.
Wolf is again a card that's useless without other cards from the set. Actually, you could even have a few livestocks and Wolf would still be dead.
Same for Shepperd...
...Pastureland...
...and Spices
Ranch is similar, but still has a use without Livestock cards. In that respect, it's a bit like Fortress (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortress).
Goods Merchant is a cantrip without cards that give goods. Meh. The fact that players can replace their starting Estates with those basically means everybody can at least open (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). Pretty crazy.
Cheese Maker... again, doesn't work without Cow. I know, you said "use many of these in one game", and i see how that works. The problem is just, Dominion simply isn't the kind of game that does that on itself. The premise is that you can just play with random cards. So if you really, really want to make sure two cards are in one game, you have to make this part of the cards. Cheese Maker could simply say "Setup: Add an additional kingdom pile so that Cow is in the kingdom" and vice versa with Cow. Bonus: You can balance the cards easier this way. Probably it would need a rules clarification on what the sentence means - i implied that it adds Cow if it isn't allready there and another pile if it is.
Milk, Wool, Eggs, Cheese: Do these anything? You have listed their costs, but i'm not sure whether you actually mean costs or whether they produce an amount of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png), like Treasure cards? Even if Egg did produce (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png), it would still just be a Copper, which is an awful thing to gain for a Chicken. Mind you, Chicken gives Actions and asks for a deck made of mostly action cards, while the card it can gain is awfully weak and clogs your deck. Or am i missing something obvious here?
Sorry if i'm being a little harsh. I think a lot of the concepts would work better if you forced the use of the piles the cards depend on. Like "Setup: Use an additional kingdom pile containing a livestock card", "...so that Cow is in the kingdom", etc. Also, i'm curious what the goods are about. Cheers.
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As people have allready pointed out, Cow is almost as Good as Grand Market, a card which costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) with a very harsh buying restriction. If you changed it to only +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png), nothing actually stops you. It should be noted though that a card that just gives +1 Card, +1 Action, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) is usually considered worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). People here refer to that as Peddler sometimes, allthough the actually existing card Peddler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler) costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Coin8star.png/16px-Coin8star.png). A term that's less confusing probably is "cantrip money". Either way, there is no official card at that price point, so it's not like Cow with only one coin would be strictly better than an existing card. It will make some people feel it's too good, though.
Pig is interesting. It's cantrip trashing, but it reduces your hand size by two. Might still be rather good.
I don't really get what the goods do. Do they anything? Currently they don't seem to have any use. I mean, without any use for a card like Egg, Chicken is just a Necropolis and strictly worse than Native Village. I know you said Livestock cards should make a decent part of the kingdom, but you really shouldn't make cards that are only worthwile if other cards from the same expansion are there. Chicken is kind of the Scout of this set.
I would argue Sheep is incredibly hard to track. Again i don't really get the point with goods.
Noooo... Don't make a reaction on drawing a card, like Rooster. Your hand is a secret to people. Nobody can check whether a Rooster you play is the card you just drew. It's not in the rules. It's extremely easy to cheat here, and, dare i say, it's also weird mechanically. Not to mention with the current wording, Rooster arguably doesn't take up an action to play if you draw it (so you can use terminal draw to activate it), helps activate other Roosters and has an activateable effect that's better than a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) card. If Rooster said "You may play a Rooster from your hand. If you do: +1 Card", that would be an entirely different thing. But, thinking of it, also a different card.
Because of Mule, a note about edge cases: Whenever somebody in this forum makes a general claim, people will try to think of a way to make sure he's proven wrong. It doesn't matter how absurd or irrelevant the edge case is. For example, i might say the fact that Throne Room (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room) says "play an Action card from your hand twice" isn't different than "you may play an action card from your hand twice", because you wouldn't play it if you don't want to play the other card, people will jump out of bushes at all sides and say "Edge case: Conspirator (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Conspirator)!" or "Edge case: Golem (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Golem)!". Either way, edge cases shouldn't be considered when you think about whether a card that says "discard a card" is worse than one that doesn't. Unless of course, the card itself does something that profits from you discarding things.
So yeah, Mule is strictly worse than Market Square and probably too weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png). As (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png), (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) are basically equally easy to aquire, it doesn't seem to be a card that would be bought at all.
Farmdog is kind of a mix between Spy and Lookout. I think it might be okay, even though cantrip trashing is strong. The fact you don't know what you'll hit nerfs this enough, i think.
Wolf is again a card that's useless without other cards from the set. Actually, you could even have a few livestocks and Wolf would still be dead.
Same for Shepperd...
...Pastureland...
...and Spices
Ranch is similar, but still has a use without Livestock cards. In that respect, it's a bit like Fortress (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortress).
Goods Merchant is a cantrip without cards that give goods. Meh. The fact that players can replace their starting Estates with those basically means everybody can at least open (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). Pretty crazy.
Cheese Maker... again, doesn't work without Cow. I know, you said "use many of these in one game", and i see how that works. The problem is just, Dominion simply isn't the kind of game that does that on itself. The premise is that you can just play with random cards. So if you really, really want to make sure two cards are in one game, you have to make this part of the cards. Cheese Maker could simply say "Setup: Add an additional kingdom pile so that Cow is in the kingdom" and vice versa with Cow. Bonus: You can balance the cards easier this way. Probably it would need a rules clarification on what the sentence means - i implied that it adds Cow if it isn't allready there and another pile if it is.
Milk, Wool, Eggs, Cheese: Do these anything? You have listed their costs, but i'm not sure whether you actually mean costs or whether they produce an amount of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png), like Treasure cards? Even if Egg did produce (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png), it would still just be a Copper, which is an awful thing to gain for a Chicken. Mind you, Chicken gives Actions and asks for a deck made of mostly action cards, while the card it can gain is awfully weak and clogs your deck. Or am i missing something obvious here?
Sorry if i'm being a little harsh. I think a lot of the concepts would work better if you forced the use of the piles the cards depend on. Like "Setup: Use an additional kingdom pile containing a livestock card", "...so that Cow is in the kingdom", etc. Also, i'm curious what the goods are about. Cheers.
Nope, not harsh at all. This is exactly what I wanted.
I'll address the goods cards first. The essential idea is that using live stock, you can gain these cards. Then using goods merchants, you can trade these in to get mountains of golds.
The idea with chicken is that it won't be completely dead, and is a cheap and easy card to throw onto your pasture for quick golds, since the majority of the pasture land cards take a while to get going. If Goods merchant can allow people to open 5/5, I'm not sure if that would be a bad thing considering it would a) change the game substantially, for better or for worse, and b) speed up the already slow goods cards. I get that this is unclear in the rules, and will try to explain this better.
When I have some time I'll fix the issues with Wolf, Pastureland, Spices, Shepherd and Cheese Maker.
I've changed Cow to a cantrip coin, so I think that fixes the problem for that one.
I really liked Rooster, but I now see your point. I'd love to find a way to get it to work without it being a trust system, but I guess I'll either have to scrap it or just use it with friends.
(Also, terminal draw to activate was the idea, it's supposed to fix the issue of having a smithy or some other power house draw card in an action stacking deck. The above still applies however.)
All in all, you've brought up some great points, so I'll try and fix up the set. Thanks for the help!
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Basically what Asper said. I think this set needs a lot of work.
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How about scrapping Goods Merchand as a kingdom card and making it an Event that's always available if you have Lifestock cards/Good givers in the kingdom? Like:
Sale, Event, $2
Trash any number of Goods from your hand. Gain a Gold per $ of the combined cost of the trashed cards.
Not even a need to mention the use of Sale on the cards. Just have the fact that livestock cards demand its use pointed out in the rules.
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I'm confused; and I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this has been cleared up... but what's the Pasture Mat for in general? I see a whole lot of cards that can either put themselves or other cards onto your Pasture Mat. I see one card that's worth VP based on cards on your Pasture Mat. If that one card isn't in the game, does the Pasture Mat do anything at all?
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I'm confused; and I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this has been cleared up... but what's the Pasture Mat for in general? I see a whole lot of cards that can either put themselves or other cards onto your Pasture Mat. I see one card that's worth VP based on cards on your Pasture Mat. If that one card isn't in the game, does the Pasture Mat do anything at all?
It's in the OP: You gain Goods cards for the Livestock cards on the mat. The problem is that Goods aren't worth anything on themselves either. Also i would suggest removing the "every second turn" thing. It's hard to track, and you'd have to do that for two groups of cards (cards put on the mat in odd and even turns).
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How about scrapping Goods Merchand as a kingdom card and making it an Event that's always available if you have Lifestock cards/Good givers in the kingdom? Like:
Sale, Event, $2
Trash any number of Goods from your hand. Gain a Gold per $ of the combined cost of the trashed cards.
Not even a need to mention the use of Sale on the cards. Just have the fact that livestock cards demand its use pointed out in the rules.
This is a great idea, I'll fix that up.