Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: LibraryAdventurer on May 11, 2015, 02:34:06 am

Title: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on May 11, 2015, 02:34:06 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/1c/Harvest.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Harvest) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/b/bc/Mint.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mint) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/89/Mountebank.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mountebank) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rebuild) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/dc/Expand.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Expand)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8e/Hermit.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hermit) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/11/Loan.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Loan) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/88/Steward.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Steward) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8c/Gardens.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gardens) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman)
Code: [Select]
Hermit, Loan, Steward, Gardens, Talisman, Harvest, Mint, Mountebank, Rebuild, Expandhttp://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150510/log.541af059e4b02da428323f87.1431325554625.txt
Ouch. I hate rebuild games...

I bought Mountebank first time I hit $5, then bought two Rebuilds and then Duchies. When I got less than $5, I mostly bought silver. He bought Talismans and used them to get more talismans and a bunch of silvers, and went for Gardens.  I guess I never thought of Talismans as a Gardens enabler because you can't use it to get victory cards.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: enfynet on May 11, 2015, 02:51:13 am
Opponents playing Mountebank surely doesn't hurt a Gardens deck as much as other strategies.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: pubby on May 11, 2015, 03:04:47 am
The Duchy split doesn't matter much because he's not mirroring you and so you want to buy an additional Rebuild or two instead of Duchies. The Gardens player won't have much of a chance if you start contesting Gardens. Rebuild your starting estates into Gardens and buy additional Gardens on later $4 hands. Skip Mountebank altogether.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: Awaclus on May 11, 2015, 03:50:46 am
Quote from: pubby on May 11, 2015, 03:04:47 am
The Duchy split doesn't matter much because he's not mirroring you and so you want to buy an additional Rebuild or two instead of Duchies.

This so much. You don't have to buy any Duchies at all here — you're playing a rush against a slog, so you just want to end the game as soon as possible. This means Rebuilding your starting Estates into Duchies, then naming Estate until the Province pile is empty and you win with 18 VP (well, obviously naming Province is actually better when you still have Duchies in your deck, but make sure that you're not mistracking your deck and spending a Rebuild play just to get the Chancellor effect). If you desperately need more VP, you can buy it later. I'm not sure if you want to start contesting Gardens early though, since it slows you down so much and he only has 2-3 Gardens by the time you should be ending the game anyway.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: pubby on May 11, 2015, 05:25:57 am
Quote
you're playing a rush against a slog, so you just want to end the game as soon as possible.
I have a different perspective on Turbo rebuild. It doesn't win because it can end the game quickly with 18 points, but rather because it denies a huge amount of points from your opponent while doing so.

I'm sure milling Provinces could win against Gardens here, but it just seems reckless and much more shuffle-dependent than playing it safe and going for the denial strategy.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: DG on May 11, 2015, 09:16:30 am
Your mountebank was never going to do any real damage to a big deck that can routinely trash curses with hermits. It's just feeding coppers. Your hermit isn't needed though and it's the main reason, along with the mountebank, why you haven't scored many points by turn 15 and beyond.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: Chris is me on May 11, 2015, 09:21:26 am
Once you see him going for Gardens, I would avoid Mountebank. Really, as soon as he bought the Talisman, I wouldn't go for it. He didn't do anything to hit $5 quickly or at all, so you can tell before the first shuffle he wants Gardens. Buy Rebuilds on $5, Gardens on $4, and Estates on $3, and just rush for three piles. If you contest Gardens, he's not going to be able to keep up, and you basically don't care how little Gardens is worth to you since you can trash them and Estates into Duchy later. That's how I see it.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: swedenman on May 11, 2015, 11:29:18 am
Talisman by itself isn't that great of a Gardens enabler, but if you're bombarding him with Mountebanks AND he grabs a few Talismans (Talismen?) then suddenly Gardens looks pretty good. Especially considering that he can trash Curses no problem with Hermit. Skip Mountebank and even a poorly played Rebuild strategy should destroy Gardens, I'd think.

As for contesting Gardens, I think it's probably smart. With 3 or so Rebuilds you can turn them all into Duchies no problem, and even if that slows you down a bit your opponent has pretty much no chance of catching up with his deck full of Talismans and Coppers.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: Chris is me on May 11, 2015, 11:53:57 am
Quote from: swedenman on May 11, 2015, 11:29:18 am
Talisman by itself isn't that great of a Gardens enabler, but if you're bombarding him with Mountebanks AND he grabs a few Talismans (Talismen?) then suddenly Gardens looks pretty good. Especially considering that he can trash Curses no problem with Hermit. Skip Mountebank and even a poorly played Rebuild strategy should destroy Gardens, I'd think.

I think you're forgetting about Hermit's Workshop-like card gaining effect here, which with Talisman makes a Gardens (rush? slog?) very possible. I don't think it would inherently lose if Mountebank was ignored, though it certainly would be far, far more difficult
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: swedenman on May 11, 2015, 12:11:24 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on May 11, 2015, 11:53:57 am
Quote from: swedenman on May 11, 2015, 11:29:18 am
Talisman by itself isn't that great of a Gardens enabler, but if you're bombarding him with Mountebanks AND he grabs a few Talismans (Talismen?) then suddenly Gardens looks pretty good. Especially considering that he can trash Curses no problem with Hermit. Skip Mountebank and even a poorly played Rebuild strategy should destroy Gardens, I'd think.

I think you're forgetting about Hermit's Workshop-like card gaining effect here, which with Talisman makes a Gardens (rush? slog?) very possible. I don't think it would inherently lose if Mountebank was ignored, though it certainly would be far, far more difficult

True, I'd forgotten about Hermit's gaining ability. I still think that's a lot weaker than Rebuild, especially since neither Talisman nor Hermit lets you gain more than 1 Gardens per turn (which is a pretty key distinction to draw between Workshop and Hermit), but I'm not 100%.
Title: Re: My opponent passed on Mountebank and Rebuild and still won
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on May 11, 2015, 07:09:29 pm
My problem is it's hard to get myself to slow down and look at the board to consider the possible strategies and how they might interact. It's too easy to see Mountebank and automatically think 'must buy -before or after my first rebuild?'.