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Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: shark_bait on October 02, 2014, 04:48:40 pm

Title: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: shark_bait on October 02, 2014, 04:48:40 pm
shark_bait's 10 Cards to Victory

This is not a list of the 10 best cards in Dominion.  Instead, it is a list of the 10 cards wherein fundamentally understanding their impact to a Kingdom will help pave your way to victory.  They are the cards that should make you happy because you know that your greater understanding of that card will allow you to outplay, outthink and outwit your opponent.  There are 3 main categories that these cards fall under including cards that relate to VP, cycling/deck acceleration and 3-pile control.  Obviously other cards in Dominion fall under the umbrella of these categories but this is an arbitrary list of 10 cards that I chose and the concepts that they cover can be applied to other relevant cards.

So here is the list.

1.)  Stonemason
2.)  Fairgrounds
3.)  Vineyards
4.)  Possession
5.)  Tactician
6.)  Scrying Pool
7.)  Hermit/Madman
8.)  Apothecary
9.)  Goons
10.)  Platinum/Colony

Don't try to read too much into the order of the list.  Just accept the contents of the list and that all of the cards represent an idea that a full understanding of will allow for you to win more games of Dominion.

1.)  Stonemason

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d2/Stonemason.jpg)

Stonemason is the king of 3-pile endings.  Stonemason a Silver into 2 Stonemasons and buy a Stonemason overpaying $2 gaining 2 more Stonemasons to gain 5 Stonemasons in a single turn.  Use it to turn a $6 Gold into 2 $5's.  Turn a $5 into 2 $4's.  This is all combined with the fact that if you can draw your deck completely you can then use your newly gained cards (which could be a Stonemason) to do even more on your turn.  Games can end very quickly with Stonemason.  Always be sure to think about what 3 piles are close and how Stonemason could be used to quickly deplete them.

2.)  Fairgrounds

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/7e/Fairgrounds.jpg)

A relatively straightforward card in principle but it is quit game changing.  This card is a huge boost to engines as a BM player can no longer hope to get half the VP.  This card allows for engines to build longer and then capitalize on later in the game with a stronger deck.  When this card is out you should think about how many points your Fairgrounds could be worth.  Think of how your deck will be build.  You want diversity but you don't want to overterminalize such that your deck can't generate $6.  Dark Ages helped Fairgrounds immensely with the addition of 8 unique cards.  That is almost 4 additional points per Fairgrounds.  When using Shelters/Ruins with Fairgrounds think carefully about what you trash.  At the end of the game you may find that you should have kept your 3 Shelters to allow your Fairground to go from 6 to 8 points.

3.)  Vineyards

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c8/Vineyard.jpg)

Another VP card in the list.  What makes Vineyards great is that you get points by building a huge engine.  Like Fairgrounds, it is a scaling VP card that prevents BM from obtaining half of the VP.  Vineyards benefits immensely from cheap cantrips (and cantrips in general) and also from the price point.  Costing only $P allows you to use a +Buy in the Kingdom to gain both a Vineyards and an engine component.  You can also trash all of your treasure and still afford them.  In a Vineyards mirror winning the split often results in Victory.  Look for an opportunity to purchase a 2nd or 3rd Potion to try and get a 5/3 advantage.  This will force your opponent to find VP elsewhere whereas you can continue to build action cards to gain points.

4.)  Possession

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/3b/Possession.jpg)

I wrote an article here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0) outlining many of the nuances of this card.  What Possession does is flip a Kingdom upside-down.  I won't go into huge detail here but when you see Possession you have to be able to recognize (a)  Is this viable to play (b) how do I build my deck in the mirror and  (c) if my opponent goes for Possession how should my play respond assuming I don't want Possession.   Be careful of what cards you put in your deck.  Trash for benefit greatly help the Possessor so incorporate them with care.

5.)  Tactician

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ed/Tactician.jpg)

There are a couple of things about Tactician that warrant its inclusion on this list.  First, the idea that 1 big hand is better than 2 normal hands and second is that deck cycling is extremely helpful in deck acceleration.  Whenever you play Tactician it is obvious that you lose a turn and that next turn you get a double hand.  You also get 5 cards of cycling which allows you to get to your newly purchased cards faster.  One large hand being better than two small hands is crucial for hitting certain price points and cards that benefit from large hands.  Of special mention is Colony/Platinum and Tactician.  One Tactician play will often result in an early Platinum which can snowball into more Platinum.  One Tactician hand with Forge allows for a quick and efficient trashing of a large part of the deck.  Tactician also has many combos ala the "Double Tactician" deck wherein a Tactician is played each turn and cards are bought using virtual $$$ from Kingdom cards.  This is the most "cute" of the Tactician uses but it should not overshadow the others.  Tactician is a very versatile card and understanding its use in a variety of situations is essential.

6.)  Scrying Pool

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/79/Scrying_Pool.jpg)

Scrying Pool is almost always good.  It is very comparable to Vineyards in terms of what kind of Kingdoms it excels in.  You want an action dense deck and cheap cantrips allows for massive card draw.  There are few kingdoms where Scrying Pool can be avoided.  The attack can be very powerful in both keeping junk on top of your opponents deck and also forcing him to miss plays of key cards in his deck.  This attack slows down your opponent giving you more time to build your engine.  In general engine with attacks are significantly better than engines without due to what they do to non-engine opponents and the relative value of each players turn.  Game extension of 4 turns for a non-engine players gives them an extra 4 mediocre hands that may get a Province or Duchy.  However those 4 turns for the engine player come when the engine is running at peak performance and instead of 4 mediocre turns the engine player gains a significant advantage.

7.)  Hermit/Madman

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8e/Hermit.jpg)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/19/Madman.jpg)

These are an extremely good pair of cards.  Most people are aware of the Hermit/Market Square combo as a game-winning strategy but these cards are more than that.  Hermit is exceptionally good at ignoring all Cursing attacks.  Being able to trash from the discard allows you to both fill you deck with Silver while simultaneously trashing Curses as soon as they enter your deck.  I would go as far to say that Hermit should be bought in every game.  It is so easy to replace starting Estates with Silver.  That greatly increases your deck's ability to get $5 power cards.  You can then continue to gain Silver or $3 actions or you can choose to gain Madmen.  I would compare Madmen to Tactician except that you get your large turn on the turn you play Madman.  The catch is that you only get it once.  Use Madman at the beginning of the game accelerate your cycling and deck improvement or use it end-game with multiple on a single turn for a game-ending megaturn.  Look to turn your Hermits into Madmen when possible, especially if you can do two at once.  These cards both have uses at the beginning of the game and in the endgame. 

8.)  Apothecary

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/69/Apothecary.jpg)

Given the choice between Apothecary and Alchemist, I would take Apothecary even though it is $2P and Alchemist is $3P.  Before you start to edgecase me one this I will say that the first purchase with a Potion should be Apothecary.  Apothecary provides both deck cycling and hand improvement.  This allows for decks to power spike much faster by using newly purchased cards faster.  If Apothecary is the only Potion card you should highly consider trying to incorporate into your strategy as the benefits are immense.  It has minor combos with top of the deck interaction cards but its main power is that it is the cycling/deck acceleration that it provides.

9.)  Goons

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/e2/Goons.jpg)

Goons is similar to the VP cards included in this list in that BM can't end the game with half of the traditional VP.  The iconic Goons games are those where you get around 5 Goons in play on a single turn with a large amount of +Buy and then go on a game-ending megaturn amassing huge piles of VP tokens.  However most Goons games are not like that.  Lack of Village support, lack of draw and lack of trashing come rear their ugly heads and prevent a game ending megaturn.  Outside of the Goons megaturn is the high-skill, highly tactical Province game that contains Goons.  If you ignore Goons, you will lose and if you ignore Province you will also lose.  In these games you need to recognize the pivotal point in deck development where you transition from deck improvement to score improvement.  There is no easy formula to define that state.  What you are looking for is the time when a non-VP card will not contribute to earning its equivalent points had it been a VP card.  This is where you prioritize Duchy over more Goons.  You start buying Copper and Estates with extra buys. 

10.)  Colony/Platinum

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/b/be/Colony-new.jpg)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/42/Platinum-new.jpg)

One could simply say that the addition of colony and platinum add more points to the game and lengthen it allowing more skilled players to have a greater opportunity to demonstrate their skill.  That is true and I don't want this description to take away from that true statement.  Colony and Platinum are so much more than that.  Normal Province games in a general sense go 14-16 turns.  Moving up to Colony/Platinum puts you around 20-22 turns.  In addition to having more turns the relevant and important decisions within those turns increases.  VP vs. Treasure buying becomes much more important as the game can end with the depletion of the 2nd highest VP pile.  I have won numerous Colony/Platinum games because of opponents who bought Province too early instead of Platinum.  On the flip side I have won numerous games due to opponents buying Platinum when they should be buying Province.  These games make you think more critically about your deck state.  How many times will you see a given card before the game ends?  Can you start rushing Provinces and reliably pile it out without stalling?

Conclusion

Obviously there are tons of nuances and combos not covered in this broad article.  The goal is to highlight key cards that illustrate important concepts of understanding Dominion at the highest level.  Thoroughly understanding these concepts and knowing when they apply is not easy.  It takes lots of skill and experience to recognize the optimal decision.  You win at Dominion when the game ends and you have the most points.  These cards and concepts described will allow you to put yourself in a position that gives you the best chance the favorably end the game with more points than your opponents.  Whether it comes from quick deck cycling, 3-pile endgame control or tight control on tactical decisions you can never be 100% sure of a win.  You can only apply your knowledge as best as you can in the circumstances that you are given to maximize your chances for victory.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: assemble_me on October 03, 2014, 09:21:36 am
Hi, nice article. The link to your Possession article is not working, though

/E: Thanks for fixing it
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 03, 2014, 12:45:58 pm
Nice list. I have a couple comments:

1. I don't think Apothecary really belongs on this list. Then again, maybe I don't really get what the list is about. My impression was that it's a list of 10 cards which can really fundamentally change the way you have to think about the game, and which give you a major advantage if you adapt appropriately while your opponent does not. Apothecary isn't really like this. It's just a good card. It's like Steward. You buy it, you play it, it makes your deck better, and you otherwise do a lot of what you do most of the time. It is definitely underestimated, but it doesn't add unique complexity the way some of the other cards do.

2. For Fairgrounds you say, "You want diversity but you don't want to overterminalize such that your deck can't generate $6." I think the statement should be stronger than that. Even generating $6 isn't enough. If that's all your engine is doing, you're still going to lose to BM because even if you're gaining 2-3 points on them per turn from having bigger Fairgrounds, you're not going to overcome their lead from buying Provinces. You have to be able to buy multiple Fairgrounds at least a few times. Fairgrounds makes slow engines fast enough. It doesn't make bad engines good.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: dondon151 on October 03, 2014, 01:46:52 pm
I agree with HME on both points. I also think (though my opinion may be outdated because I'm out of practice) that Mountebank can fundamentally change how a game is played because it might completely invalidate strategies that would do fine otherwise, even more so than other Curse-giving attacks.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: shark_bait on October 03, 2014, 01:51:53 pm
Hmmm, I'll reword fairgrounds.  You're right about that. 

As for Apothecary, I'll have to think about it and think if there is a better card to replace it with.  I think it is under-rated by others and that's part of the reason I put it on here.  But like you said, just being a good card doesn't quite fit on this list.

I don't like Mountebank for this list.  Yes it changes the way you play but when it's in the kingdom I'm more concerned about who gets 5/5 on turns 3/4 and who has Curse in hand when a Mountebank is played.  There is too much variability that contributes to the winner of those games even if it does change fundamentally how you approach a kingdom.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: dondon151 on October 03, 2014, 01:53:53 pm
I might also suggest Tournament or Rebuild.

The problem is that there's not a clear distinction between cards that are unequivocally strong and cards that completely change the game. They tend to be both, but I know you're not going for a power ranking.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: liopoil on October 03, 2014, 02:00:21 pm
Replace apothecary with watchtower! Watchtower is the most versatile card in the game, IMO. Every kingdom with watchtower in it you have to look at each of the other 9 cards and think about how they interact with watchtower. On average about 1/3 of them make watchtower better.

EDIT: I think what he's going for are cards that are high-skill. These look like some of the most high-skill cards to me. Watchtower is pretty high-skill too, I think. Black market is too, hmm...
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 03, 2014, 02:00:21 pm
I agree with Tournament. It does things like make you want to buy Province in Colony games. And people often  play it wrong by focusing on quickly getting a Province rather than focusing on getting a Province to line up with a Tournament fast. I've had quite a few people complain about how they got the first Province but were unlucky to not line it up when really they just have a deck full of junk.

Ambassador is another good one. There's a lot of interesting decision making about things like when to get the second Ambassador, and what your deck should be building into. It forces long games, which naturally leads to more decisions.

I guess the problem with both of these is there is definitely a significant luck element involved regardless.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: shark_bait on October 03, 2014, 02:00:50 pm
I might also suggest Tournament or Rebuild.

The problem is that there's not a clear distinction between cards that are unequivocally strong and cards that completely change the game. They tend to be both, but I know you're not going for a power ranking.

Those two absolutely fit the bill of altering how a kingdom needs to be approached.  The caveat of those two is that they have some large luck aspects regarding Province lining up and what cards are skipped upon playing a Rebuild/who hits $5 more consistently.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: shark_bait on October 03, 2014, 02:02:12 pm
I agree with Tournament. It does things like make you want to buy Province in Colony games. And people often  play it wrong by focusing on quickly getting a Province rather than focusing on getting a Province to line up with a Tournament fast. I've had quite a few people complain about how they got the first Province but were unlucky to not line it up when really they just have a deck full of junk.

Ambassador is another good one. There's a lot of interesting decision making about things like when to get the second Ambassador, and what your deck should be building into. It forces long games, which naturally leads to more decisions.

I guess the problem with both of these is there is definitely a significant luck element involved regardless.

Yup, I thought of Ambassador too.  but like Rebuild and Tournament it doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings because one bad draw can put a game easily out of reach.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 03, 2014, 02:24:22 pm
I agree that with Ambassador, bad luck can snowball into a feeling of helplessness, but that can also happen with Possession or Scrying Pool or Goons. It's still a better fit for the list than Apothecary, imo.

Other options are:
 - Duke/Nobles, which is kind of boring, just the same alt VP story
 - KC, everyone loves that one
 - Embargo, but it's kind of pointless when there's good trashing
 - HoP, really good gainer in the right circumstances and has that mega-turn thing going fot it
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Polk5440 on October 03, 2014, 02:40:56 pm
Love the idea for this article, thanks!

I would also suggest Watchtower or Ambassador over Apothecary. Apothecary should be highlighted simply because it is such a powerful card that people regularly underestimate. But that's not really this list.

I don't think Rebuild or Tournament fit, either. Does Tournament really fundamentally alter how you construct your deck? Not really. Sometimes there are modifications so you can hit $8 and then transition into more engine building, but not really anything super magical. Tournament just really magnifies small early errors (and bad luck). Rebuild doesn't seem to fit because Rebuild only decks are very much like big money decks (Rebuild and not much else). When you add it to an engine (I still believe in those hybrid decks too often, I think) you don't really do much modifications, either. If all there was to Hermit was Hermit/MS, then I would say it wouldn't belong, either, but Hermit/Madman really does make you think differently about a whole bunch of kingdoms in a way that Rebuild does not.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: dondon151 on October 03, 2014, 04:25:50 pm
Tournament changes games from build engine -> big turns to hit $8 -> win Tournaments.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Titandrake on October 03, 2014, 05:37:34 pm
Black Market, Duke, arguably Gardens should be here. Black Market changes how you should play your deck significantly - long term plans based on getting the right cards out of BM are surprisingly feasible. Duke is more about thinking about a game where a player isn't necessarily buying Provinces and has other ways to win, Gardens is similar but only acts as a end-game source of VP in the most ridiculous engines.

Although Duchy rush/Gardens rush are the most common ways to play Duke/Gardens, they're not the only way.

(I would also say Herald, but I'm very biased because I still cannot play Herald boards for the life of me. The engine potential of a deck with most of the Heralds is so good that it can turn boards into engines on its own if left uncontested, but if you're going to contest Heralds you should probably be building a semi-engine anyways.)
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: ThaddeusB on October 03, 2014, 06:11:25 pm
I have a ton of experience with Rebuild (for awhile I owned only Dark Ages online), and I don't view it as a high luck card at all. It certainly fundamentally alters strategy - it's problem is that it does so in only one way (how to get 5 as consistently as possible) that varies little from board to board. It also combos with very little. Whereas this list is cards that open up competing/varient strategies. In that light, I'd add my voice to those who say Watchtower should make the list.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: ehunt on October 04, 2014, 05:02:54 am
I thought of the article as more of just -- sharkbait is featuring these ten interesting cards that a lot of people don't think about right, than a specific list of the top ten cards at something or other in particular. So I agree, rebuild and tournament are certainly cards that people don't think about right (they are hard! I still get clobbered in basic rebuild tactics games), but they are pretty well-known for being game-changers. Whereas the point of this article is that it highlights lesser-known game-changers. (OK, Possession is a well-known, but extremely poorly understood, game-changer.)
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Breezy D on October 04, 2014, 06:07:48 am
I love this list.

And I like seeing apothecary on this list. I agree it is a highly powerful card that players underestimate. But where I think it is a game changer is the value it provides coppers. In a game with little trashing, apothecary can really tie everything together. And in a game with some trashing, apothecary might be faster at getting things going and you might be able to delay some of your trashing.

Apothecary definitely gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. Especially when my opponent doesn't go for it! And I am surprised how many people don't go for it.




Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: liopoil on October 04, 2014, 10:44:16 am
Now that I think about it, I never know what to do when it is possible to trash coppers really fast an apothecary is on the board. To not trash and get apothecary would go against a lot that I know about dominion... but is it usually the right call? What if the only trasher is, say, chapel or remake? Do I have to keep my estates too then?
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: -Stef- on October 05, 2014, 09:18:50 am
Nice list & tons of useful advice.

A lot of other cards would have made it onto my list (black market on #1), but little point in that argument, because the title clearly states its Shark baits list.

on apothecary: maybe add something about the total and utter collapse if you start greening without precautions.

Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: shark_bait on October 07, 2014, 02:55:13 pm
Nice list & tons of useful advice.

A lot of other cards would have made it onto my list (black market on #1), but little point in that argument, because the title clearly states its Shark baits list.

on apothecary: maybe add something about the total and utter collapse if you start greening without precautions.

What other cards would you put on it?  I'm aware of all of the discussion regarding Black Market lately but with not owning it myself I rarely have it in my games so I didn't feel confident to put it on my list.

I'm unsure how I'm going to edit this.  I'm leaning towards replacing Apothecary and then possibly adding another section for cards like Tournament and Rebuild that certainly change your approach to a kingdom but also add variance.  Perhaps I'll also put together a separate article for what I think are under-rated cards.  Then again, that all seems like a lot of effort at the moment so we shall see.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: soulnet on October 07, 2014, 03:30:55 pm
Its strange not to see any fast trasher in the list. It is just because their impact is too well known?
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: jomini on October 07, 2014, 11:57:07 pm
Apothecary seems a bit off on this list. Sure it is vastly stronger than people suspect ... but ultimately just how much differently does the game play if you substitute in Stables instead?

The ones that actually really change my play style are things like:
Nv - this is a phenomenal mega turn enabler. At $2 you can mass it like crazy. Bridge is the classic enabler, but there are a lot of options particularly if you can get some top deck control.

Fool's Gold. This makes Nomad Camp a good opening. It makes you sometimes skip your first $5 to win the split. Knowing when to use the reaction (because golds on top are good) and when to skip it (obviously whole deck drawing, but also when points NOW is worth deck improvement later). Racing for six $2 is a very different beast than racing for six $5 or even $4.

Procession. There are many killer setups for this card that people overlook. The board has no - nonterminals? So what. If you have scaling TfB, you can still Prssn -> Prssn -> some junk for huge turns. Timing in Prssn games is a lot trickier - you eventually will want to trash expensive cards with no bonus gain just to get the effect a second time. Like with Stonemason, the game can explode quickly (e.g. Prssn -> Prssn -> Armory (grain Prssn + Armory + $5) ->  Oracle (gain Armory draw Prssn/Armory) -> Gain $5/$4/$4. Prssn is really prone to making glass cannon decks ... but unlike a lot of megaturn strategies, you often do want to fire off before you've cinched the game.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Davio on October 08, 2014, 07:17:21 am
I like the idea of this list.

It highlights some cards which require special attention when assessing a kingdom.
But in that case you can't really ignore Rebuild.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Cas Liber on October 20, 2014, 08:39:09 am
Surely Hoard? Always gun for it. Each time you buy a VP you get a Gold. Deck keeps filling with gold alongside VPs and hence you can by VPs earlier and not worry about deck diluting too badly (?)
Cas
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Eevee on October 20, 2014, 08:52:18 am
Surely Hoard? Always gun for it. Each time you buy a VP you get a Gold. Deck keeps filling with gold alongside VPs and hence you can by VPs earlier and not worry about deck diluting too badly (?)
Cas
Sure, hoard is okay, but gold and a green card is three money in two cards, so 1.5 money per card. 1.5 money times 5 cards is just 7.5 money for a five card hand, not even enough to afford a province, so buying early green just to trigger your hoard isn't really getting your deck towards a desirable state.

Edit: The best use for hoard, other than alt vp, is keeping your deck from falling of a cliff once you've started greening. It's generally not very good to use hoard as a way of greening earlier, because the early green can stop you from reaching provinces pretty easily.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Cas Liber on October 20, 2014, 08:59:47 am
Surely Hoard? Always gun for it. Each time you buy a VP you get a Gold. Deck keeps filling with gold alongside VPs and hence you can by VPs earlier and not worry about deck diluting too badly (?)
Cas
Sure, hoard is okay, but gold and a green card is three money in two cards, so 1.5 money per card. 1.5 money times 5 cards is just 7.5 money for a five card hand, not even enough to afford a province, so buying early green just to trigger your hoard isn't really getting your deck towards a desirable state.

Edit: The best use for hoard, other than alt vp, is keeping your deck from falling of a cliff once you've started greening. It's generally not very good to use hoard as a way of greening earlier, because the early green can stop you from reaching provinces pretty easily.

Yeah/agree/should have specified when I said 'earlier' I didn't mean 'right from the get-go'  :)
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: dondon151 on October 20, 2014, 09:33:45 am
Hoard is, if not at least very ignorable, not usually an essential part of most decks.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: soulnet on October 20, 2014, 09:47:29 am
Sure, hoard is okay, but gold and a green card is three money in two cards, so 1.5 money per card. 1.5 money times 5 cards is just 7.5 money for a five card hand, not even enough to afford a province, so buying early green just to trigger your hoard isn't really getting your deck towards a desirable state.

Edit: The best use for hoard, other than alt vp, is keeping your deck from falling of a cliff once you've started greening. It's generally not very good to use hoard as a way of greening earlier, because the early green can stop you from reaching provinces pretty easily.

Hoard does allow you to green really early (whenever you have Hoard in play), because you are rarely playing BMU, more likely something like Terminal Draw-BM, and 1.5 per card is pretty good once you have more than 5 cards in hand. Also, the deck is high variance and extremely good at Duchy dancing, so greening earlier is important, as long as you eventually get to the 4 Provinces you need (in a BM mirror).
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: jsh357 on October 20, 2014, 09:50:20 am
A larger point is that understanding Hoard doesn't really improve your understanding of the game that much, whereas many other cards on the list do.  (If I'm understanding the purpose)  With Hoard, the only decision after getting it is "get green cards or don't," so it's a bit simplistic.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: Eevee on October 20, 2014, 10:06:59 am
Sure, hoard is okay, but gold and a green card is three money in two cards, so 1.5 money per card. 1.5 money times 5 cards is just 7.5 money for a five card hand, not even enough to afford a province, so buying early green just to trigger your hoard isn't really getting your deck towards a desirable state.

Edit: The best use for hoard, other than alt vp, is keeping your deck from falling of a cliff once you've started greening. It's generally not very good to use hoard as a way of greening earlier, because the early green can stop you from reaching provinces pretty easily.

Hoard does allow you to green really early (whenever you have Hoard in play), because you are rarely playing BMU, more likely something like Terminal Draw-BM, and 1.5 per card is pretty good once you have more than 5 cards in hand. Also, the deck is high variance and extremely good at Duchy dancing, so greening earlier is important, as long as you eventually get to the 4 Provinces you need (in a BM mirror).
Sure, but getting hoard that early is questionable. It of course shines with terminal draw BM, but that's not always (usually?) an option, and even when it is, it's not always the best one. Hoard does let you green earlier, but the post that stemmed all this implied that it's a game-changer you want to get as early as possible so you'd get to go green earlier, which is not the case.
Title: Re: shark_baits 10 cards to victory
Post by: soulnet on October 20, 2014, 10:12:00 am
Sure, but getting hoard that early is questionable. It of course shines with terminal draw BM, but that's not always (usually?) an option, and even when it is, it's not always the best one. Hoard does let you green earlier, but the post that stemmed all this implied that it's a game-changer you want to get as early as possible so you'd get to go green earlier, which is not the case.

I agree it is not a game-changer. It is a BM-game-changer, and in those cases, you want to green earlier (though in some cases, like Cultist-BM, it is not really earlier, but the same time you would have greened anyway).