Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: ashersky on May 28, 2014, 09:38:37 am
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RSPers,
As part of a forum mafia game, we are having a debate! If it were part of a mafia game, which it isn't, it would be called: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
mail-mi will argue for the subject.
Faust will argue against the subject.
Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
Thanks!
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/tag
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/tag
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/tag
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tag
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/tag
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/tag and looking forward to post-debate discussion.
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/tag and looking forward to post-debate discussion.
You mean post-debate debate?
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How is this even a debate? Of course they exist.
And if I weren't lazy, I would make a novelty account named scumslips now.
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/tag
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Posting deadline for debaters is 24 hours from thread creation.
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tag
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Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
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Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
time constraints. rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for
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Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
time constraints. rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for
Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game? If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.
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Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
time constraints. rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for
Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game? If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.
I think it is, though I'm not really following it.
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Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument. Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.
I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
time constraints. rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for
Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game? If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.
3 rounds of two debates each, needs to be done within a game day.
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I'm arguing for scumslips, correct? Okay here we go.
Scumslips exist. There's always the classic example of Captain_Frisk's "I have a 0% chance of being town," and there are many counterexamples. Scumslips do exist, however, though not all of the things we think of as scumslips are actually scumslips.
Scumslips are something that you post that outs you as scum. There are blatant scumslips, like the one shown above, but there are also more subtle scumslips. How are you ever going to find that first scum if something in their post does not out them as scum? For the other teamates, you can look for interactions with the dead scum, but how do you find the first one? Wait for a lucky vig shot, a random lynch? No, you get reads. Sometimes those reads are from gut feelings, but a lot of the time, they are from reading the other players' posts and looking for something that sticks out that is scummy, or is a scumslip.
Scumslips exist.
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There has been a lot of talk about scumslips. In almost every mafia game, at some point a player is going to point out a post of another player as "scumslip". Before we go into details concerning the merit of these arguments, we first need to get our definitions straight.
So what is a "scumslip", and how can we differentiate it from the more general "scumtell"? Scumtell can describe pretty much anything that makes you think a person is scum. Interactions with other players, voting history, activity level, defensiveness etc. can all be scumtells. "Scumslip" is used in a much more narrow way. There are basically two kinds of behaviour that are usually classified as "scumslip":
1) Accidentally writing a scum-related thing in your post instead of a town-related thing. Captain_Frisk's "0% chance" fits here, as well as the <b>scumslip</b>.
2) Making an argument based on information that one should not have access to. Examples can be knowing the exact size of the mafia team, knowing that there is a SK, having information about night actions and so on.
Now I don't think we even have to argue about 1. If you're an active mafia player, just ask yourself: how many times have you accidentally written "scum" instead of "town"? Does it happen more often if you are indeed scum? Advotcates of scumslips might want to point to the original Captain_Frisk scumslip, saying "but there it worked"! Well, sure. Every game features around 25% mafia, so if you're using a scumslip argument often enough, it will hit scum at some point. The same is true though about the argument "that player used T as the first letter of their first post". If you are lynching based on this, you will be successful sometimes, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of your argument.
The second kind of scumslip seems more legit, at least at first glance. If people are using information that a standard town member couldn't have, it has to come from somewhere, right? How this argument is ultimately flawed tough can be seen when it's taken to an extreme: You could use this argument to lynch a claimed Cop with a guilty result. Because, obviously, the Cop has information that mafia would have - namely, who one mafia player is - so they have to be scum!
This leads us to one of the reasons the "scumslip" argument is wrong. There are mulitple ways in which you may get to know more about the setup than others do. You may be a town PR. You may have made some connections from things that happened earlier that others haven't made. You may have read the setup post carefully.
Secondly, there's the kind of posts that are based on knowledge that isn't actually there. You might appear to "know" something others don't, but only because you didn't think everything through. Another thing happens when some people believe in a theory, and they trust this theory so strongly that they assume it to be true. This often happens when players act as though they know there's a SK, even though they don't.
Thirdly, the argument is flawed because scum is careful. They will think twice before posting something. That means that they are actually more likely to eliminate obvious errors in their reasoning than town players are. By saying "this is a scumslip", you have to assume that scum let this slip happen, and more often than not, they won't. There are cases in which they actually slip, but by the points before, these are mostly indistinguishable from instances where town just makes a bad argument.
So ultimately no, scumslips don't exist.
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Thanks to the debaters. The thread will lock for 24 hours and a poll will go up.
After the voting period ends, the thread will reopen for discussion as desired.
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Open for discussion of the subject.
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Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist
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Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist
vote: Ozle L-0
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Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist
I agree that they exist, but I voted for faust for making a better argument.
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I have been meaning to compile every instance in which somone was accused of a "scumslip". I have a strong suspicion that it will favor on the side of those making said slips being town. Obviously that will be expected given that the majority of players in a game are town.
But the real question that should be asked is, "what is a scumslip" because the connotation typically used is that somehow mafia will unconsciously slip in a typo that will out them as scum. I reject that Freudian notion.
What is real is that mafia will approach a situation and will have an overall attitude that only scum would take. But that can't be discovered in a single post or in a single mistake. That takes analyzing the whole body of text that said person has presented over time. That is called scum hunting.
Scumslip hunting is an attempt to take a shortcut and use an isolated post as enough evidence to override the whole body of work that is required for scum hunting. It will rarely work out to be nearly as solid as people make them out to be. Examples of this are: simple typos, setup speculation, knowing too much about setups, <tag> errors and on and on.
Scum makes mistakes. But never would I classify them as "slips" in the current connotation. Because those "slips" are made just as often by town--if not more--whereas true scumhunting philosophies are things that town should not be doing just as often.
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Scumslips exist, it's just that true slips are rare. CF's slip is a classic one. Hunting for slips is not productive because they are so rare.
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What yuma said.
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What eHal said.
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What ashersky said.
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I would note that I've scumslipped on purpose as scum, in Mean Girls.
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Scumslips exist, it's just that true slips are rare. CF's slip is a classic one. Hunting for slips is not productive because they are so rare.
CF's slip I think wasn't an actual scumslip (he may have said otherwise, if so, please tell me). Once you start writing something like that, especially using negatives and such, you can easily write the wrong thing by accident and not realize it.
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That CF made a "scumslip"? Or that they are rare?
I agree that they are rare, and thus rarely worth basing a vote on, let alone a wagon or a lynch. But I disagree that CF's was a scumslip. It was a typo. Not a scumslip. Unless you hold true to the fact that him being scum directly caused him to mistype. I don't hold to that. I don't believe in Freudian psychoanalysis that dictates that the unconscious can cause use to do something by mistake that reveals our true intentions or mindset. I think he typed fast and made a mistake in the same way I often mistype doc for cop or vice versa.
PPE:
You can't scumslip on purpose... At least not in how we are trying to define the term scumslip, which I see more as a mistake. If you are saying you did it on purpose then it isn't a slip, but instead a tactical decision.
I believe have made "one" true scumslip. In the Mafia QT for Masons and Monks I stated that I often like to bus my partners while at the same time I was currently in Deep Space Nine where I had just finished bussing my partner Glooble. I don't know if Jimmm--the mod, and in DS9--caught onto it or not. But I was shocked that I could forget about one game in the midst of writing about another...
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In summary of superhugemegapost:
Scum slips exist
But people claim slips are also scum slips this minimising the potential.
If I could be arsed there's an easy Venn diagram for this
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
Again. Not a scumslip I think. Just an accident. Unless that was the only QT you were in (the game was Chocolate Factory yes, so I would argue that you had been in a lot of QTs at that point and thus your brain had combined the two tags. Again as a comparison I have used the [ ] tags in QTs thus showing that such a mistake is possible w/o any alignment whatsoever.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
Again. Not a scumslip I think. Just an accident. Unless that was the only QT you were in (the game was Chocolate Factory yes, so I would argue that you had been in a lot of QTs at that point and thus your brain had combined the two tags. Again as a comparison I have used the [ ] tags in QTs thus showing that such a mistake is possible w/o any alignment whatsoever.
I disagree.
Yes, the mistake can be made as town! and it's just an error.
In that case, I made the error precisely because I was scum and day chatting. I had an immediate moment of "oh shit!" and that terrible feeling of making a mistake in the pit of my stomach.
That was a scumslip.
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Well I will take your word for it on that, you obviously know the situation better than me! But I wouldn't push a lynch on you, or anyone else, for that because w/o knowledge of what you were doing/feeling I couldn't separate whether or not it was legitimate or whether or not it was a mistake.
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Having made scumslips myself, I believe that they do exist. Having been accused of making scumslips that weren't, I also think they are "seen" far more often than they happen.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.
This. Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip. Town just makes mistakes. The hard part is differentiating. But the slips themselves absolutely exist.
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Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.
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Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.
You are making a circular argument. The fact that oranges are fruit doesn't disprove that apples are fruit.
You've seen multiple players admit to making slips due to alignment. Are we all liars?
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If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?
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If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?
Not impossible, just sometimes difficult.
We don't lynch nearly enough for scum slips in my opinion. If they are town mistakes, townies will learn to be better. It's like LALL. Used to work, but we've fallen off.
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If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?
Not impossible, just sometimes difficult.
We don't lynch nearly enough for scum slips in my opinion. If they are town mistakes, townies will learn to be better. It's like LALL. Used to work, but we've fallen off.
You want town to be extremely paranoid and reread and rewrite every post to make sure their aren't mistakes? That would have a terrible chilling effect that would be awful for town.
Town should never lynch solely based off a perceived scumslip. It can be part of a case. But for me it adds about 1%--different situations will change that %--of an overall read on a player.
And to compare it to LALL is just silly. LALL has been statistically proven shown to be more likely to hit scum than town (saying shown because I don't think we have a large enough sample size to fully analyze... rather in going back to see if we had LALL day1 every game we would have had better chances of hitting scum then what actually happened). Lynching based off scumslips has not had a statistical analysis yet, but I would bet that it would lean on the side of mislynching far more often.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.
This. Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip. Town just makes mistakes. The hard part is differentiating. But the slips themselves absolutely exist.
I agree to an extent. Except that I think many slips made by scum were actually just mistakes made by scum, and not caused by their alignment. The CF example for instance was a mistake, not a slip. Your <> mistake was a true slip I believe.
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I agree with Yuma, I am not trying to argue that scumslips don't exist, they obviously to. But I think I've seen in the past that every mistake made by scum is automatically qualified as a scumslip, because it's a mistake made by scum, which is the definition of scumslip...but I don't think that this is always the case.
Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.
You are making a circular argument. The fact that oranges are fruit doesn't disprove that apples are fruit.
You've seen multiple players admit to making slips due to alignment. Are we all liars?
What I'm trying to say here is that how can a town member and a scum member make the exact same mistake (town/scum for example), but when scum makes it it's automatically a scumslip rather than a mistake? Is it just a disagreement on the definition, where any scum mistake is automatically considered a 'scumslip'?
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Well if you all admit that true scumslips really exist, then there is no debate... you agree with us. :P The rest of it is outside the scope of the debate.
What I'm trying to say here is that how can a town member and a scum member make the exact same mistake (town/scum for example), but when scum makes it it's automatically a scumslip rather than a mistake? Is it just a disagreement on the definition, where any scum mistake is automatically considered a 'scumslip'?
The mistakes aren't exactly the same. They appear the same, but the background behind them are different.
If scum makes a mistake, it's not automatically a scumslip... but man, it certainly could be.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.
This. Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip. Town just makes mistakes. The hard part is differentiating. But the slips themselves absolutely exist.
Then it is a technically correct, practically useless term.
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If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?
They aren't.
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That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip. Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.
What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?
Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.
This. Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip. Town just makes mistakes. The hard part is differentiating. But the slips themselves absolutely exist.
Then it is a technically correct, practically useless term.
just the way everyone on the dominion forums likes :P
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If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?
They aren't.
I think it's possible to differentiate, and the term is not useless. You discover that somebody has made a mistake. Is it a scumslip, or just a regular old mistake? This prompts discussion. You can examine the context around the mistake. Is it something that came from scum-only knowledge? Was it just a bad assumption by a townie? Did the player make the same mistake repeatedly in a way that suggests it's more than just a simple error? How did they respond after it came to light?
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Then it is a technically correct, practically useless term.
That's probably true like 90% of the time. But then sometimes you nail someone for it, and it's awesome.
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Shouldn't all these threads be in the Mafia subboard?
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Shouldn't all these threads be in the Mafia subboard?
can't tell if you are being ironic or not...
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I'm not. They are part of a Mafia game and clutter this board.
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I'm not. They are part of a Mafia game and clutter this board.
This is a discussion about whether scumslips exist in mafia or other non-mafia forum games.
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So what do all the other debate threads do here?
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So what do all the other debate threads do here?
I've gotten more hate for this than possibly anything I've ever experienced in my life.
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I'm not. They are part of a Mafia game and clutter this board.
This is a discussion about whether scumslips exist in mafia or other non-mafia forum games.
I agree with Watno. No matter how much you choose to change the thread title and the OP, this was part of a Mafia game, and applies only to social deduction games (like Mafia), all of which are variants on Werewolf. It has no application to any other style of game.
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I'm sorry, if this already had been discussed before I wasn't aware of it.
The only thing I know is that the thread titles made me think these threads were part of a Mafia game and therefore belonged in the Mafia subboard, and they were definitely threads I didn't think belonged in the top level Forum Games board.
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Thanls for moving the threads, anyway.
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I think ash's idea was for people not in the game to see it so that more people would vote.
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I think the easiest solution is to stick them somewhere visible to start but move them back to the Mafia forum when it's done.
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I have been meaning to compile every instance in which somone was accused of a "scumslip". I have a strong suspicion that it will favor on the side of those making said slips being town. Obviously that will be expected given that the majority of players in a game are town.
If you do this also take note of the claimant's alignment. I suspect that more often than not it is scum claiming a tawny made a scum slip.