Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:35:46 am

Title: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:35:46 am
The main aspect of any card in dominion is whether it is terminal or not; Lost Arts completely changes that balance. Moat with Lost Arts becomes better than lab, while costing only $2. This happens for many cards, and it isn't hard to think of more examples of cards that become very, very strong as a result of no longer being terminal.

The question, then, is where and when do you buy Lost Arts, and what do you put it on?

It goes without saying that Lost Arts is an engine card; getting +1 action on a card that you will usually only play once a turn isn't a great help.

Anyway, there are two main options in regards to Lost Arts: you can either put it on your terminal draw (think smithy or moat) or put it on your terminal payload (think bridge or goons or mountebank). Both are good options. Obviously, both aren't going to be available on every board that lost arts appears, either. Anyway, lets look at where each approach is good and where each approach fails.

The terminal draw option is quite strong. When there aren't any villages, it can become almost mandatory; even when there are villages, you can simply either ignore the villages or buy a few at the beginning then later stop buying them when you get lost arts onto your terminal draw card, depending on what other terminals you want to play. This somewhat depends on which draw card you are using; cheaper ($4-?) draw cards will like having villages more while more expensive ($5+?) draw cards like getting villages less. This is because the gap of time, and thereby the utility of villages, of smithy to lost arts is longer than that of, say wharf to Lost Arts. Even in the latter case, villages may still be useful if there are some strong terminal payload on the board that you would like to play multiple of. It should also be noted that putting +1 action onto a terminal draw makes your engine much more reliable, as you no longer have to worry too much about drawing your draw without any villages to play it. Finally, just as there not being any villages helps putting your +action onto your terminal draw, having multiple villages also helps because you are't running around trying to fight over the village pile. This approach becomes weaker if there are nonterminal draw cards already in place, especially without villages, as sometimes it may be simply better to buy a lab and put your +action onto a terminal payload rather than worrying about getting lost arts on said terminal draw then getting more villages to play your terminal payload.

The other option is putting it on your terminal payload. This is actually much, much stronger than it may sounds at first, to the point that when it is available, I think that it is usually stronger than putting it on your terminal draw, although you obviously only want to do so when there is a good, spammable terminal payload. Consider first that engines are often able to consistently draw themselves without Lost Arts on a draw card. The next thing to consider is that you can, potentially, get far, far more use out of lost arts on a terminal payload card than a terminal draw. For example, a deck with 7 bridges may only need something like 4 smithy's; putting +1 action on your smithy versus bridge gives 3 less actions over your turn, whereas putting the Lost Arts onto the smithy doesn't do much to increase payload capacity, only reliability. Lost Arts on terminal payload also works wonders when your draw is a draw-to-X card, as your terminal payload is now almost a cantrip, and you no longer have to worry about getting enough villages to play your terminal actions before you play your your draw card either, because before you needed a +action for every terminal payload you want to play. Putting Lost Arts on your payload also works better when villages are contested, as the number of villages needed to play out all the payload you need is usually much larger than the number needed to play all your draw cards. Further, putting Lost Arts on your payload works much better in the general timeline of how your deck is likely to develop anyway because you never have those awkward questions of whether to buy a village or overbuy draw cards.

As usual with dominion, there are some womewhat edge-casey stuff to consider.

An option is to put lost arts on a card that is already nonterminal to create a village when there aren't any on the board. This is uncommon, but sometimes useful when the you need to play multiples of both your terminal payload and terminal draw, or if there are multiple different terminal payload cards that need playing.

In games with 3 or more people, it can often be good to place your +action onto a different card than other players to avoid competing with them. I can't say too much about this, as I don't really play 3+ player dominion that much.

In summary, basically Lost Arts works well when put on terminal draw, but usually works better when put on terminal payload. But don't be an idiot about it either; Lost Arts on Wharf is probably better than Lost Arts on woodcutter.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on June 24, 2016, 03:50:17 am
The solution is actually pretty simple: put the +Action token on the card you're going to play most often in a turn.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:57:20 am
Quote from: Aleimon Thimble on June 24, 2016, 03:50:17 am
The solution is actually pretty simple: put the +Action token on the card you're going to play most often in a turn.

Actually, not quite. If both +draw cards and payload are equal, you prefer putting your +action onto the draw because it increases your engines reliability more than putting it onto your payload. If you have only a small difference between the two, like maybe 4 draws and 5 payloads, it still may be better to +action the draw to get that increased reliability. There is also the thing about if you are playing more of a cantrip than a given terminal; maybe I have a deck where I am drawing with lab and using goons as my payload. Should I really put +action onto lab over goons, even if I have more labs?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 24, 2016, 07:24:35 am
I think your article is missing some points and you're over stressing economy cards for better than lab draw (deck reliability is super important). Also, what to do on boards with no village? When do you stop bidding villages? Anyway, I'm too tired to think, but you should also link to some logs.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: DG on June 24, 2016, 08:02:15 am
The can be some defensive reasons to place your tokens on particular cards. Cheap 2 cost cards are immune to various trashing attacks and they can also be fast to accumulate later.

Fighting for a share of the supply cards might be important too. In a multiplayer game I'm guessing that different players would put their tokens on different piles, if they've got a choice between smithy and catacombs say, rather than all choose the same pile.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 10:15:04 am
Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: faust on June 24, 2016, 10:29:51 am
The really interesting question is, on a board without Villages, when do you want to put the token in a nonterminal to create a pseudo-Village rather than putting in on the card you want to play the most?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: aku_chi on June 24, 2016, 11:08:47 am
In the absence of terminal draw, a non-terminal draw card (like Laboratory or Hunting Grounds) can be a good target for Lost Arts for a few reasons:
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: J Reggie on June 24, 2016, 11:36:44 am
Quote from: faust on June 24, 2016, 10:29:51 am
The really interesting question is, on a board without Villages, when do you want to put the token in a nonterminal to create a pseudo-Village rather than putting in on the card you want to play the most?

Yeah, I find this is often the right thing to do. I very recently played a game with no villages except Lost Arts, and Hunting Party and Margrave as draw. I found it much better to put the token on Hunting party so I could play a bunch of different terminals in a turn rather than playing a whole bunch of Margraves.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 11:48:34 am
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 24, 2016, 12:51:16 pm
Quote from: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 11:48:34 am
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.

False. Articles are great. And I think there does need to be discussion about where the best placement of lost arts can go. On a board with no village. Let's say not even a cantrip. Where do you put lost arts? Obviously varies by board, but interesting enough to discuss
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 12:54:51 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 10:15:04 am
Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 12:59:49 pm
Quote from: 2.71828..... on June 24, 2016, 12:51:16 pm
Quote from: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 11:48:34 am
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.

False. Articles are great. And I think there does need to be discussion about where the best placement of lost arts can go. On a board with no village. Let's say not even a cantrip. Where do you put lost arts? Obviously varies by board, but interesting enough to discuss

On such a board, it really depends on what else is on the board. Sometimes you might not want to buy Lost Arts, sometimes you do. You cannot analyze whether or not go go for Lost Arts in a case by case basis in an article. The point of an article is rather to give a basic overview of the card, interesting strategies that are powerful enough to go for, and general improved play regarding a card.

When I say 'case by case basis', I am not referring to examples. I think examples should be present in every good article. Examples are general in nature, and to discuss edgecase upon edgecase in an article defeats the purpose of one.

If I were to ask anybody right now how to use Lost Arts, they would tell me already what this article stated. It is not much more complicated than Smithy. Why isn't there a Smithy article? Because the concept is obvious.

Lost Arts is not a very complicated Event. The only thing to really discuss is terminal draw versus terminal payload, and again, it depends on the board. I don't think you can write a very good article on this one topic alone.

I'm all for more articles; I just question whether much can be gained from a Lost Arts article.

edit For the author: I don't mean to be down on you or your writing. I in fact encourage you to keep editing this article you've written. Keep working on it. I hope you prove me wrong and there is in fact more to Lost Arts than I think there is.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 01:54:53 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 12:54:51 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 10:15:04 am
Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.

Quite frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how else I could spell it out for you. If you have a bigger hand, it is easier to collide cards together. That's just a fact. Lost Arts on payload means you have to collide cards with a standard size hand in order to get to the payload. Lost Arts on draw means you have to collide cards with a much larger hand (maybe even your whole deck) in order to get to the payload. In most cases, it is tremendously easier to draw, then line up cards than it is to line up cards and then draw.

If your draw is nonterminal, sure put Lost Arts on your payload. Maybe your draw is Scrying Pool in a thin deck with no junk. Obviously don't put Lost Arts on that. But these are edge cases, and they are obvious. There are even some situations where it is better to Lost Arts payload than it is to Lost Arts terminal draw, but it certainly is way, way, way less than most of the time as you imply. Only in extremely specific circumstances.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 02:10:19 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 01:54:53 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 12:54:51 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 10:15:04 am
Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.

Quite frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how else I could spell it out for you. If you have a bigger hand, it is easier to collide cards together. That's just a fact. Lost Arts on payload means you have to collide cards with a standard size hand in order to get to the payload. Lost Arts on draw means you have to collide cards with a much larger hand (maybe even your whole deck) in order to get to the payload. In most cases, it is tremendously easier to draw, then line up cards than it is to line up cards and then draw.

If your draw is nonterminal, sure put Lost Arts on your payload. Maybe your draw is Scrying Pool in a thin deck with no junk. Obviously don't put Lost Arts on that. But these are edge cases, and they are obvious. There are even some situations where it is better to Lost Arts payload than it is to Lost Arts terminal draw, but it certainly is way, way, way less than most of the time as you imply. Only in extremely specific circumstances.

You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: dedicateddan on June 24, 2016, 02:19:30 pm
Great article, please write more!
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: eHalcyon on June 24, 2016, 02:30:20 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 02:10:19 pm
You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.

This example doesn't make sense to me. If my engine only has terminal space for 3 Bridges even with Lost Arts backing up my draw, your engine only has terminal space for about 2 draw cards to line up your Bridges (the last draw would draw Bridges dead), and that depends on you first lining up your draw and splitters. 80% chance of firing doesn't sound like a reasonable estimate there.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: funkdoc on June 24, 2016, 03:00:20 pm
i think you really underestimate the value of overdrawing your deck.  the strongest engines tend to be based on mid-turn gaining rather than just buying stuff (goons & bridge [troll] aside, obv), so being able to draw and play your shiny new toys without worrying about actions is practically the best thing you can get
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Awaclus on June 24, 2016, 03:15:50 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on June 24, 2016, 03:00:20 pm
bridge [troll]

I think we need a Bridge [Serious].
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:39:52 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on June 24, 2016, 03:00:20 pm
i think you really underestimate the value of overdrawing your deck.  the strongest engines tend to be based on mid-turn gaining rather than just buying stuff (goons & bridge [troll] aside, obv), so being able to draw and play your shiny new toys without worrying about actions is practically the best thing you can get

Mid-turn gaining isn't always possible, and when it is there often isn't a single payload card that you are trying to spam, but rather several, in which case we were never in disagreement.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:41:52 pm
Quote from: eHalcyon on June 24, 2016, 02:30:20 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 02:10:19 pm
You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.

This example doesn't make sense to me. If my engine only has terminal space for 3 Bridges even with Lost Arts backing up my draw, your engine only has terminal space for about 2 draw cards to line up your Bridges (the last draw would draw Bridges dead), and that depends on you first lining up your draw and splitters. 80% chance of firing doesn't sound like a reasonable estimate there.

When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible. I may have estimated the +draw players action capacity a little low, but the point still stands that the player who got the +action on their bridge gained far more by getting extra payload capacity than they would have if they had chosen to go with reliability.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: traces Around on June 24, 2016, 03:56:40 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:41:52 pm
When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible.

It turns out that trying to disprove a generally-speaking statement with edge cases doesn't actually work.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: brokoli on June 24, 2016, 04:00:16 pm
sometimes it's not about adding lost arts to an engine and do some kind of magic, but it's about playing an engine around lost arts.
For example, if for some reason, I want to play a kind of engine with a lot of different terminal engine pieces, I would consider putting lost arts on pearl diver.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 04:10:20 pm
Quote from: traces Around on June 24, 2016, 03:56:40 pm
Quote from: polot38 on June 24, 2016, 03:41:52 pm
When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible.

It turns out that trying to disprove a generally-speaking statement with edge cases doesn't actually work.

If there are enough edge cases, then the edge cases combined cease to be an edge case.

Besides, since when is the existance of trashing considered an edge case? There being at least one way to trash cards is literally more likely than not.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 04:22:06 pm
Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 04:26:29 pm
Quote from: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 04:22:06 pm
Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.

Or even, you know, 8 non-drawing payload cards would be enough to choke a deck relying on 2 of 5 cards of every hand being a specific combination...
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: eHalcyon on June 24, 2016, 04:35:47 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on June 24, 2016, 04:26:29 pm
Quote from: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 04:22:06 pm
Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.

Or even, you know, 8 non-drawing payload cards would be enough to choke a deck relying on 2 of 5 cards of every hand being a specific combination...

Yeah, that's a major reason I'd say that 80% estimate was high, even with trashing.  As for Durations...

Fishing Village provides so much +actions that Lost Arts is going to leave you with extra no matter whether you put it on draw or payload.  In this case, better go with draw for slight increase in reliability.

Duration draw like Wharf and Haunted Woods aren't exactly terminal draw, so they're not really relevant to the question.  Even if we count them as such, bonus tokens are much less useful on durations in draw-your-deck engines since you'd only get the bonus every other turn.

And then Scheme alone is an edge case.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on June 24, 2016, 04:46:28 pm
Thinking about it, I am actually wrong. There is enough to discuss with Lost Arts.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: luser on June 25, 2016, 02:17:15 am
Also part about villages with lost arts is completely wrong as opposite is true. With 4 costs you get to lost arts before collision becomes problem, for example with opening smithy/silver you will likely get LA on turns 3/4 and if not you get second smithy and LA on next shuffle. On other hand for 5 draw costs spiking 5 is problem so you probably will have several turns where you don't want another silver so you will buy village.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Accatitippi on June 25, 2016, 04:27:15 am
Quote from: Awaclus on June 24, 2016, 03:15:50 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on June 24, 2016, 03:00:20 pm
bridge [troll]

I think we need a Bridge [Serious].

I think that would be Highway.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Dunduks on June 25, 2016, 12:05:23 pm
Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Jack Rudd on June 25, 2016, 12:52:38 pm
Quote from: Dunduks on June 25, 2016, 12:05:23 pm
Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)
Well, Torturer is both draw and payload. No surprise that it's a good Lost Arts target.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: allanfieldhouse on June 29, 2016, 01:00:23 pm
I think the most general-case way to think of this is a kingdom like Village, Smithy, Goons, Lost Arts. For simplicity's sake, say all the piles split 5-5 (and we ignore the end-game condition). Where do you want your Lost Arts?

Option 1: Village
No. Feast or famine. Super villages are just worse than the alternatives.

Option 2: Smithy
This allows you to draw your whole deck easily. Then you play 5 Villages and 5 Goons.

Option 3: Goons
This allows you to freely play your Goons as long as they weren't drawn dead.

Ignoring option 1, both other choices have a best-case scenario of drawing their whole deck and playing 5 goons. The difference really lies in the average-case scenario. The Smithy option relies on having a Smithy in your starting hand. The Goons option relies on having a Village PLUS a Smithy in your starting hand.

This is the point that "Chris is me" keeps making. Putting the +Action on your terminal draw allows you to draw your whole deck, THEN line up your village and payload. Putting the +Action on your payload means you have to line up your village + draw in your initial hand of 5 cards (or 3 in the case of Goons).

Edge case: sure if you win the Goons split 8-2, put the +Action there. But that's an edge case. In the general case of two fairly balanced decks, the terminal draw is the best place to put the token.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: luser on June 29, 2016, 01:12:42 pm
Quote from: Dunduks on June 25, 2016, 12:05:23 pm
Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

Similar holds for witch and mountebank. With LA witch its almost same as cultist. Mountebank is bit luck based as you need to spike 6 reasonably early, then playing multiple mbanks is brutal.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: diedre91 on July 01, 2016, 07:52:45 am
Quote from: luser on June 29, 2016, 01:12:42 pm
Quote from: Dunduks on June 25, 2016, 12:05:23 pm
Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

Similar holds for witch and mountebank. With LA witch its almost same as cultist. Mountebank is bit luck based as you need to spike 6 reasonably early, then playing multiple mbanks is brutal.

Indeed, LA on Torturer is amazing. Add Ferry on the board and it is just insane! Nice discussion by the way.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: DG on July 01, 2016, 10:07:41 am
Lost arts on attacks like witch might be good, but could there be a card that is even better for lost arts because of its cost? Moat

So what is the worst lost arts target? Since champion isn't possible, could is be tactician?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Deadlock39 on July 01, 2016, 10:28:05 am
Tactician is probably the worst. It is probably closely followed by 1-shots.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: pedroluchini on July 01, 2016, 10:40:56 am
Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Limetime on July 01, 2016, 10:42:18 am
Quote from: pedroluchini on July 01, 2016, 10:40:56 am
Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?
Yes but why?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: ehunt on July 01, 2016, 12:29:31 pm
Quote from: Limetime on July 01, 2016, 10:42:18 am
Quote from: pedroluchini on July 01, 2016, 10:40:56 am
Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?
Yes but why?

I thought this would be a good idea on some boards but had to get quite edgecasey.

Kingdom: Marauder, Quarry, Talisman, Stash, Royal Seal, Contraband, Bank, Tunnel, Adventurer, Fairgrounds

Your opponent has given you 3 ruined libraries and no other ruins. Still Gold is probably better but it's close at least.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 12:48:18 pm
WIPED because I feel guilty now. :(
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: AdrianHealey on July 01, 2016, 01:08:30 pm
Did you have a lot of extra coppers because of ambassador and ill gotten gains?
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 01:27:10 pm
Quote from: AdrianHealey on July 01, 2016, 01:08:30 pm
Did you have a lot of extra coppers because of ambassador and ill gotten gains?
Yerp. So much copper. And 9 curses. It was a pretty crazy game.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: J Reggie on July 01, 2016, 02:44:40 pm
Quote from: pedroluchini on July 01, 2016, 10:40:56 am
Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?

Donald X said that one of the Adventures/Dark Ages recommended kingdoms was designed for you to put Lost Arts and Pathfinding on the Ruins pile.

Also, after I typed "one of the", the word my phone suggested was actually "Adventures". I don't know whether to be amazed or worried.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
Quote from: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 12:48:18 pm
This actually seems like a good spot to mention a bit of an unusual LA usage I did in one of my league games against infthitbox this season.

We probably both did tons wrong, but it was an interesting kingdom: who'd have thought LA on Apothecary would ever make sense?

Kingdom:
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/97/Oracle.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Oracle) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/22/Alchemist.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Alchemist) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/20/Apprentice.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apprentice) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/43/Bandit_Camp.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bandit Camp) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/91/Ill-Gotten_Gains.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ill-Gotten Gains) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9a/Lost_City.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lost City)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/4b/Lost_Arts.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lost Arts) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/02/Inheritance.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Inheritance) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c8/Vineyard.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Vineyard) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/69/Apothecary.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apothecary) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/74/Ambassador.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ambassador)
Code: [Select]
Lost Arts, Inheritance, Vineyard, Apothecary, Ambassador, Oracle, Alchemist, Talisman, Apprentice, Bandit Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lost City

Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt

I never want to see this game log again in my life.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 05:32:23 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
Quote from: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 12:48:18 pm


I never want to see this game log again in my life.
Ah dude, sorry. :(  It really REALLY wasn't my intention to bug you or annoy you or rub anything in.  Just thought it was an interesting board.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Awaclus on July 01, 2016, 05:34:56 pm
Quote from: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 05:32:23 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
Quote from: Haddock on July 01, 2016, 12:48:18 pm
This actually seems like a good spot to mention a bit of an unusual LA usage I did in one of my league games against infthitbox this season.

We probably both did tons wrong, but it was an interesting kingdom: who'd have thought LA on Apothecary would ever make sense?

Kingdom:
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/97/Oracle.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Oracle) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/22/Alchemist.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Alchemist) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/20/Apprentice.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apprentice) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/43/Bandit_Camp.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bandit Camp) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/91/Ill-Gotten_Gains.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ill-Gotten Gains) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9a/Lost_City.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lost City)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/4b/Lost_Arts.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lost Arts) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/02/Inheritance.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Inheritance) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c8/Vineyard.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Vineyard) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/69/Apothecary.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apothecary) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/74/Ambassador.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ambassador)
Code: [Select]
Lost Arts, Inheritance, Vineyard, Apothecary, Ambassador, Oracle, Alchemist, Talisman, Apprentice, Bandit Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lost City

Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt

I never want to see this game log again in my life.
Ah dude, sorry. :(  It really REALLY wasn't my intention to bug you or annoy you or rub anything in.  Just thought it was an interesting board.

Says he, as he posts yet another post containing that game log.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Dingan on July 01, 2016, 07:29:30 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt)
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on July 01, 2016, 07:45:14 pm
Quote from: Dingan on July 01, 2016, 07:29:30 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt)

I followed that YouTube link manually too. Man, you suck. I can't believe I fell for that.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: J Reggie on July 01, 2016, 07:58:43 pm
Quote from: Seprix on July 01, 2016, 07:45:14 pm
Quote from: Dingan on July 01, 2016, 07:29:30 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt)

I followed that YouTube link manually too. Man, you suck. I can't believe I fell for that.

Try following it not manually.
Title: Re: How to play Lost Arts.
Post by: Seprix on July 01, 2016, 08:01:53 pm
Quote from: J Reggie on July 01, 2016, 07:58:43 pm
Quote from: Seprix on July 01, 2016, 07:45:14 pm
Quote from: Dingan on July 01, 2016, 07:29:30 pm
Quote from: Infthitbox on July 01, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt)

I followed that YouTube link manually too. Man, you suck. I can't believe I fell for that.

Try following it not manually.

I did it both ways. It's a brilliant double meta post.