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popsofctown

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Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« on: April 29, 2012, 12:57:54 am »
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After being an isotropic player for over a thousand games, I have only recently acquired a copy of base Dominion.  My parents are always willing to give a game I ask them to try a shot.  When they tried Settlers of Catan they didn't like it and thus weren't interested in expansions.  When they tried Carcassone my dad wanted to buy all the expansions because he liked it.  So the key here is a good first impression.

Open questions :
How can I design sets so that base Dominion's Big Money issues don't make them enjoy the game less than it is due? (or, use actions so good that the stage of learning before Silver is Better Here isn't too awkward?)
How can I play with them without crushing them into a fine powder with my experience, but still not go bored out of my mind?

Which expansion first?
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Kirian

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 03:40:10 am »
+3

I'll take the last question first:  Don't play with just Base, if you can swing it.  Get a copy of Intrigue or (better IMO) Seaside.  Either way you'll have a lot more combinations to try out.

Frankly... that answers the first question too.  If you must play with just Base, make sure you have an attack or two--but I wouldn't suggest Witch in the first game, perhaps Militia and Spy? Moat, for certain.  Lab, very useful; Remodel or Mine for trashing; Festival or Village to have the ability to create a basic "engine."  Market for a basic cantrip; perhaps Cellar?  Easy to use and the obvious use is... obvious.  Avoid Chapel (until you can explain what it's for), probably avoid Workshop and TR for a first game.  But hey, just throwing ideas out.  I seem to recall the "First Game" in the Base rule book isn't bad at all.

As to your second question:  Sandbag, man.  Buy weird combos that you normally wouldn't.  Skip playing action cards in hand, or don't show all your cash.  If your folks are likely to buy attacks, let them do it first; otherwise, grab one to goad them into countering, then "forget" to play it just one or two times.  Don't grab a Moat at all.  Buy a semi-early Province if you can, ideally when their decks are a bit better than yours.  At the same time, though, you need to demonstrate things like chaining cantrips, or using Villages, etc.  It's a fine line.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 04:00:49 am »
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The next time I play my parents I'm going to try a progressive handicap -- basically, each time I win a game I replace one of my coppers with a blank card, and any time I come in last place I put a copper back.  The blank cards can't be trashed, passed, or returned to supply, and if they get revealed in a way that hurts the opponent (i.e. thief or tribute), they get discarded and the next card revealed instead.

I think this works because there's still a feeling of accomplishment among all players, and I don't have to intentionally try to play poorly.  (They're big golf nuts so they're used to handicaps.)

I'm also hoping to give them some strategy advice, but that alone won't suffice -- they only play when I visit them (or my brother).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 04:03:34 am by yudantaiteki »
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dondon151

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 04:02:51 am »
+1

If your parents know that you're a better player, they will certainly try to emulate you to a small extent, so you shouldn't be making outright bad decisions.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 10:24:38 am »
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you shouldn't be making outright bad decisions.
Speaking of bad decisions, do not get the expansions in the order I did if you aren't looking for confusion. This is the order I got them in: Base, Seaside, Cornucopia, Prosperity, Alchemy, Intrigue, Hinterlands. Think I'll create a thread about this.
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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 10:29:35 am »
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You could always sit out the first couple of games and just coach them a bit.  Tricky situation, I guess. I don't recommend handicaps.  You're lucky they'd even consider playing it though; my parents won't attempt to play any board game that's not Scrabble/Cranium/Apples/Monopoly.
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Davio

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 10:53:45 am »
+1

A good first set without expansions or attacks could be:

Cellar, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop, Feast, Smithy, Throne Room, Festival, Laboratory and Market.

With this setup they can grab a lot of action cards and play them and I think this will be the most fun.
Make sure to open Silver/something to make them understand they also need some starting money.

Don't be hell bent on beating them, just let them explore their options and let them have fun stringing some cards together.
It's important that they get a sort of "a-ha"-experience when they see all the cards they've bought click together to get some nice big turns.

It's not fun for them when you're Cursing them to death or Militia-ing every hand.

The point I've tried to make with my setup is that there's no real way to go wrong. Every one of the $5 cards will be good for them. They may run out of actions, but they've always got Village and Festival to help with that. The first time one of them plays a Village first and a Smithy after will be a real eye opener. "So, if I play this card first and then this one, I get to draw 4 cards total and I still have an action left?!" "Yes!"
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yuma

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 12:45:42 pm »
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When I introduced to my in-laws when the cards were layed out I explained some basic interactions--at the time I wasn't a great player, well I am still not great--between the cards and throughout all of my turns I explained what I was buying and why. They for the most part copied my moves, but weren't able to all of the time because different draws. I think I ended up losing the first game to my father-in-law.

Introduced Base/Intrigue to them but avoided the cards that require making decisions--Pawn, Torturer, Steward and the like--they loved Masquerade because of its interactive ability.

Basically walk the first game or two with them and then set them lose. And get them to play a game or two without you and with minimal suggestions from you as well.
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popsofctown

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 01:05:30 pm »
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I used the rulebook starter set and sandbagged, since the "no money" deck amuses me and was in there - Workshop, Remodel, Village.  I told her not to copy me because I was going to sandbag but she still bought lots of workshops.  I think maybe she feels like it gets her lots of cards very quickly.  I need to take it out, it slowed the game to a crawl. 

I'll try blank cards next time.  Three at least. 

My mother doesn't like cards that confuse her and avoided Mine just because she didn't want to figure it out.  With that in mind is Intrigue still the best expansion?
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Fabian

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 01:42:50 pm »
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Isn't Mine in like the bottom 1% of complicated cards? "when you play this you can trash a money card from your hand and you get a bigger money card back"?
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Davio

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 02:06:03 pm »
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Mine just has some text, I think she prefers cards like Smithy which only have some +X on it.

Intrigue has a lot of nasty interaction cards. Seaside may be nice if you can get the Duration idea across. Cards like Fishing Village, Caravan and Wharf are pretty simple.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 11:23:11 am »
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Isn't Mine in like the bottom 1% of complicated cards? "when you play this you can trash a money card from your hand and you get a bigger money card back"?

Once you know it, Mine is incredibly simple. The text may be daunting for new players.

And that text is necessary, since Donald knew that there would be other treasure cards.

Something else about Mine is that it breaks the rule about gaining cards. With Mine, you put the new card into your hand.

It's not a complex card, but I wouldn't call it newbie-friendly either.

If I just had Base, I'd sum up the text as, "Replace a treasure card in your hand with the next step up." That's not technically true, but it's good enough for what players need in Base.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 12:27:55 pm »
+6

One thing that helped my family tremendously was to play the first few games with everyone's hands shown all the time.  So you can explain as you go how the actual mechanics of playing Dominion - the ABCDs (Actions, Buys, Clean-up, Draw) - and at the same time demonstrate how the various cards actually play out.  I also helped explain the pros and cons of each player's choices, especially when they were confronted by multiple action cards to play. 

I also took the time out after every game to ask the newest players which cards in the set they understood and felt confident about.  Any cards they were uncertain about - either the mechanics of how to play them, or WHY they would ever want to play them (cough Chapel cough) - I kept in the mix for the next game.  As to the rest, I would swap out maybe 3 or 4 cards for new ones they'd never seen before, while keeping the remainder (so they wouldn't be COMPLETELY at sea when the next game started up).

A note on Mine:  in my experience, new players tend to have trouble grasping trash-for-benefit in general (so Remodel as well).  My mother's mode of thinking for the longest time was, "Well, I could get rid of this card, sure, but isn't it better to USE that card instead?  Why get rid of a Copper to get a Silver when I can just use the Copper plus this other action card (Smithy/Militia/what have you) to help me buy something better this turn?"  It's the typical bias that all starting players have of not wanting to lose their precious, precious cards.  So how to get around that?  A few things I found helped:

- Set up a game, for instructional purposes, that involves Chapel and rewards going for a Chapel-thinned engine.  I find Adventurer works well for this (even if not maybe the strongest choice) because it makes the benefits of dumping Coppers so glaringly obvious.  When they ask how your deck is doing what it's doing, pause the game at a reshuffle and deal out your whole deck.  Let them see how few (if any) Coppers you have left, and let them realize for themselves how this drastically cranked up Adventurer's effectiveness. 

- Moneylender.  Moneylender I think is the easiest trash-for-benefit for players to grasp because its benefits are so immediate and obvious:  instead of getting $1 from that Copper, you get $3!  Incredible!  But at the same time, explain/demonstrate to them that the benefit from Moneylender isn't JUST getting $3 instead of $1; it's also getting rid of Coppers that clog up your deck.  If they've seen the Chapel/Adventurer example already, they should start to see how it's a slower-but-surer method of getting the same benefit.

- Now move to Mine.  By this time, they should start to be more comfortable with understanding that it's better to trash a Copper and pick up a Silver than it is to use that Copper to help buy a Silver.  The card's text itself is a bit confusing, but if they understand the idea behind the card, they'll better be able to wrap their heads around its text.

- Finally, Remodel.  This card, out of all the other cards in Base, I find induces the most AP in new players.  "What card should I trash?  What card should I gain instead?  Is it better to NOT trash anything, and instead play my other cards?"  It's not helped by the fact that Remodel's best targets are NOT Coppers (Estates are OK), especially in Base where there's no $2 card you really want lots of.  Remodel is better used on GOOD cards.  But a new player will naturally prefer to USE those good cards instead.  After all, isn't that why they bought them?  To use them!

I floundered a bit teaching Remodel myself;  I first tried a turbo-Remodel strategy on one board as an example, but it wound up underperforming (as turbo-Remodel without support tends to do) and only confused my new players further - "if he can't get it to work, how can I?"  What worked out better was getting up to Golds in a more "normal" fashion and then picking up Remodels mid-game to turn Golds into Provinces.  That is the sort of "obvious" use of Remodel that helps a new player understand why you'd want to lose something GOOD in place of something BETTER.   

Finally, as to handicapping:  Always have the least experienced person go first.  They will complain.  They will say, "but I don't understand the cards yet, I need you to show me."  Stick to your guns.  If you go before them, they will copy you without pausing to think of any sort of strategy, and then wonder why their deck is flailing around.  Tell them to look at the board, think about WHICH cards they are going to buy, and then set out to buy JUST those cards.  New players need to understand how much having a plan from the get-go will help them during the course of the game, and the best way to do that is to get them to make those plans themselves.  Even if it's just "well, I'm going to try to learn cards X Y and Z this game," that's a good start.  Then, pursue some other strategy yourself.  Explain what you're doing while you're doing it.  When the new player is confronted with a difficult choice, remind them of their original strategy and get them to answer what option(s) fit best with that strategy.  It takes time and effort, but it really pays off when that new player looks at you after the game and says, "Hey, I actually understood what I was doing that game."  That's the goal!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:52:29 pm by Voltgloss »
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jmieden

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:54:28 pm »
+2

I have been trying to get several people to play Dominion lately and have taken the following tact when explaining it.

First, I only lay out victory cards and money (with no curses, trash pile or actions) arranged by cost in a row in front of the player. Then I explain that the goal is to get the most victory cards and that they must use money to buy. I explain that this game is like war and that you are trying to get the best deck. I then explain that the game ends when all the provinces are gone (I mention the 3 pile rule later). I also explain how Dominion is different from normal games in which you must "turn in" your money in order to use it. I play 5 turns (that way you get a partial deck reshuffle at the end of turn 4) for myself with this setup to explain buying (you can't use it now, it's for later) and reshuffles and drawing and only buying one thing.

Then we begin playing and after about 4 turns, I introduce Smithy as an action card. I re-explain that this card is for later and encourage them to just buy money if they feel confused. Then, 1 by 1, I add Market, Cellar, Adventurer and Woodcutter (they are all fairly straightforward, each cost a different amount). After playing a full game which is basically big money + a couple actions, I ask if they would like to play again with the same actions or a full set of 10. This is when I bring up the 3-pile victory condition.

I will generally then play 3-5 games with just the base set and the following time playing together add Hinterlands cards (Sometimes I jump ahead to this step with people who grasp the game easily).

Introducing the game this way generally teaches solid fundamentals and players are less likely to make mistakes like drawing from their discard pile or reshuffling at the wrong time if they are taught in this way.

I find that fronting the Big Money strategy does 2 things:
1) It skips the Village Idiot phase that every new player is generally inclined to go through.
2) It makes the player competitive out of the gate, which means that they are having more fun than losing and more likely to figure stuff out for themselves.

I like to add the sets in this order:
1) Base Dominion
2) Hinterlands
3) Seaside
4) Prosperity
5) Haven't gotten this far with anyone yet.

So far, it's worked extremely well. I've gotten to teach even non-gamers and they love it. This weekend, I got together with two people who own Dominion and a couple expansions and a new player. I walked through this with the new player (without actually playing the first game with them, just explaining). We played 3 games, 2 base Dominion games and 1 Dominion/Hinterlands split. The new player won 2 of the 3 games, and I won the other.

I found this method online somewhere and it has not failed to get people into Dominion yet.

Hope this helps :D
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Morgrim7

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 01:07:15 pm »
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I like to add the sets in this order:
1) Base Dominion
2) Hinterlands
3) Seaside
4) Prosperity
5) Haven't gotten this far with anyone yet.
I think Hinterlands is one of the most complicated expansions. I would go like this:
1) Base
2) Seaside
3) Prosperity
4) Intrigue
5) Cornucopia
6) Hinterlands
7) Alchemy/Promo
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Voltgloss

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 01:24:19 pm »
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Another general tip:  When you introduce attack cards, make sure there is SOME kind of counter on the table.  Could be a hard counter (i.e., Moat); could be a soft counter.  In Base, for example, I introduce Militia in conjunction with Library.  The first time they see someone discard two green cards to Militia and then draw a hand full of coin with Library is a real eye-opener.  Especially when they've done it themselves.

The Militia-Library example points up another useful rule:  when introducing a few new cards to the board, pick cards that mesh well together - or, at the very least, don't actively conflict.  (Helps also to keep those new cards at different price points, so they're not forced to pick between them all the time.)  New players will want to try new cards.  If those new cards clash, they're going to think something between "these cards are bad" and "I don't know how to play these cards" - both mindsets you want to avoid.

A separate note re: Seaside:  the biggest conceptual hurdle of this set is, of course, getting them to understand Durations and not automatically sweeping them into their discard pile at the end of every turn.  Start with the simplest Durations of all (I like Caravan and Merchant Ship) to get them used to the concept.  Get them in the habit of doing something physical to a "leftover" Duration card on its second turn in play (like turning it sideways) so they don't get confused between "which Durations did I play this turn vs. which ones did I play last turn?"  Try to keep at least one Duration card on the board at all times so they keep getting practice with this mechanic.  Don't introduce Treasury until they are very comfortable with Durations.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 01:31:13 pm by Voltgloss »
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Morgrim7

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 01:28:58 pm »
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A separate note re: Seaside:  the biggest conceptual hurdle of this set is, of course, getting them to understand Durations and not automatically sweeping them into their discard pile at the end of every turn.  Stard with the simplest Durations of all (I like Caravan and Merchant Ship) to get them used to concept.  Get them in the habit of doing something physical to a "leftover" Duration card on its second turn in play (like turning it sideways) so they don't get confused between "which Durations did I play this turn vs. which ones did I play last turn?"  Try to keep at least one Duration card on the board at all times so they keep getting practice with this mechanic.  Don't introduce Treasury until they are very comfortable with Durations.
This is why I put Alchemy at the bottom.
One time I tried to teach someone how to play Dominion using only Alchemy and Cornucopia... It didn't turn out too well.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 01:41:57 pm »
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A separate note re: Seaside:  the biggest conceptual hurdle of this set is, of course, getting them to understand Durations and not automatically sweeping them into their discard pile at the end of every turn. 

I generally include a Duration card or two when indoctrinating a new player just for this reason. If the new player hasn't been used to clearing everything, it may be easier to train him.

As for the benefits of Chapel, I suppose one thing that could work is to actually build two different decks. They both have four Silvers and two Golds. Deck A has only these cards while Deck B has 7 Coppers and 3 Estates. Let the new player play with these decks and realize that Deck A usually has better buying power. After comparing value-for-value each hand, the new player should understand why trashing is good.

Then you can explain that trashing is not always necessary by adding four Smithies and three Villages (or Fishing Villages). Then the new player can see how he can get most of his deck in his hand so that all those Coppers and Estates are not that big of a hindrance.

Of course, the ideal numbers of these cards probably don't match what I listed, but the idea is still the same.
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jmieden

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 01:56:25 pm »
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I think Hinterlands is one of the most complicated expansions.

Yes, I think it adds a layer of complexity; however, it doesn't add any more card types yet greatly increases the complexity of the cards' interactions with one another. I think this also drives a learning of the fundamentals. The questions you begin asking in light of how the Hinterlands cards work generally lead to more clarity and less sloppy play early. I'll probably discover that Hinterlands isn't the best starting place, but so far these are my thoughts :) 

IMO Seaside is another great choice for a second expansion. I don't like introducing Intrigue early as it usually paralyzes players with all the additional decision-making.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 03:23:35 pm »
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IMO Seaside is another great choice for a second expansion. I don't like introducing Intrigue early as it usually paralyzes players with all the additional decision-making.

I actually introduced Intrigue as the second expansion and had little problems doing so.  You just have to carefully ration in the cards that include additional decision-making - and it's not really as many as you'd think (mainly Pawn and Steward).  Torturer isn't as nerve-wracking as it seems if you EXPLAIN the thinking behind the choice each time it comes up during your first "learning" game.  (And definitely do NOT have a Village-type on the board the first time you play with Torturer.  Let that interaction show up after they've come to grips with the card itself.)

Steward isn't bad either - by the time you add that to a game, your new players have seen cards that do all of what Steward can do, just better.  Explain it as something that sacrifices power for flexibility:  "it can trash earlygame, just not quite as well as Chapel; it can draw cards when you want them, just not quite as well as Smithy; or it can give coin like a Silver, but at the cost of an action."  Encourage new players to try buying one early so they have experience drawing it in multiple different kinds of hands and can play around with its options. 

Pawn is the worst of the lot, sure, but still not insurmountable.  I found it useful to introduce Pawn in a Gardens game; the two synergize well (giving +Buy and giving you something cheap to load up on that doesn't clog your deck) and help reduce the AP Pawn usually entails (because in a Gardens game, your choices are usually simplified).  It's also useful to introduce alongside Conspirator, as there it's clear how Pawns are usually used as a "means to an end" rather than an end unto themselves.  (All this said, I would definitely make Pawn one of the last Intrigue cards introduced to the new players.)
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Morgrim7

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 03:45:01 pm »
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Pawn is the worst of the lot, sure, but still not insurmountable.  I found it useful to introduce Pawn in a Gardens game; the two synergize well (giving +Buy and giving you something cheap to load up on that doesn't clog your deck) and help reduce the AP Pawn usually entails (because in a Gardens game, your choices are usually simplified).  It's also useful to introduce alongside Conspirator, as there it's clear how Pawns are usually used as a "means to an end" rather than an end unto themselves.  (All this said, I would definitely make Pawn one of the last Intrigue cards introduced to the new players.)
Oh, I HATE Pawn. Espically with KC...
And Plays a King's Court
... and plays a Pawn
... and can't choose which option
... and causes me to rage quit after the ten minute turn :(
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I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

popsofctown

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 05:00:29 pm »
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Very helpful posting all around
Does Intrigue's treasure come in different colors?  My mom complained that the base set's treasures all look the same, which to me is a huge, strange flaw.  Why isn't the silver... silver?  Or the copper, copper.  It's irritated me that I can't just count "Yellow Yellow Gray" and see I have 8$, I have to read.

My dad is a very visual person and will probably learn slower with this problem in play :(

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jsh357

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 05:01:33 pm »
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Supposedly the Base Cards expansion will make them easier to distinguish.  Whether or not it's worth buying just for that, I dunno.
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ftl

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 05:17:05 pm »
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In Intrigue, and in all other currently published expansions, the treasures still all look the same color.

It is said that sometime in the near future we will be getting the opportunity to buy a mini-expansion with just the basic cards (copper, silver, gold, platinum, potion, estate, duchy, province, colony) but with art. But that isn't out yet.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Getting my family to like Dominion with base Dominion
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 05:27:17 pm »
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In Intrigue, and in all other currently published expansions, the treasures still all look the same color.

It is said that sometime in the near future we will be getting the opportunity to buy a mini-expansion with just the basic cards (copper, silver, gold, platinum, potion, estate, duchy, province, colony) but with art. But that isn't out yet.
It isn't out? I thought I heard someone say it was going to come out in March.
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"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246
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