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Author Topic: Random Card Idea, untested  (Read 4618 times)

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Graystripe77

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Random Card Idea, untested
« on: June 20, 2012, 05:06:11 pm »
0

Action Duration: $4

Now and at the start of your next turn, +1 card per Duration card in play (Including this).
-----
While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 05:48:14 pm »
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But that's just a super-Caravan with a not-that-bad buy restriction.
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Graystripe77

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 05:53:58 pm »
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Yea, but it's terminal, and the buy restriction is actually HUGE.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 06:02:14 pm »
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Yea, but it's terminal, and the buy restriction is actually HUGE.

Hmm, terminal on this turn.  Yeah, that does change things a bit.  I still think it's undercosted though.  Well, OK.  It is far worse than Caravan in the absence of other durations and villages.  With +actions around, it is variable.  With other durations, especially FV, Lighthouse and Caravan itself, this becomes a monster.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 07:06:49 pm »
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I think, only giving cards at the start of your next turn would be strong enough ! Because it doubles your caravans... either the ones you played this turn, and the ones from your previous turn ! And it is strong with other easily spammable duration cards, too : fishing village, wharf with presence of villages, and...
But the buy-gain restriction seems perfect to me !

Maybe : at the start of your next turn, +1 card per duration card you have in play, including this.

Of course, as it's terminal, it's definitely too weak in games without non-terminal durations and villages ! So... let's cross fingers to make your opponent's swinds dodge your same-cost cards, or let's find something else ?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 07:38:04 pm »
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While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
So what happens if one of these is in play, and somebody Swindles a card into it?
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:55:56 pm »
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While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
So what happens if one of these is in play, and somebody Swindles a card into it?
Anything else, or sometimes nothing to replace the swindled card !

It happens, sometimes, with duchies as the only $5 or estates from an estate-runner...
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rinkworks

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 12:55:10 pm »
+2

While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
So what happens if one of these is in play, and somebody Swindles a card into it?
Anything else, or sometimes nothing to replace the swindled card !

I don't think it's clear.  If one card (Swindler) says to gain something, and another card (yours) says not to, it's not clear which rule should take precedence.  There's nothing anywhere that says the player of Swindler can't choose your card, nor anything that says the card must be trashed upon being gained to avoid being gained.  It's simply an unplayable situation, similar to the problem fan cards with "you may only play one of these per turn" clauses have with Golem.

But there's an easy solution.  Change the word "gain" to "buy," and you're all set.  Other cards never force you to buy other cards, and Grand Market and Contraband are precedence for restrictions on what you're allowed to buy.  True, you might still be able to finagle a way to gain them (Horn of Plenty, University, etc), but if you're clever enough to manage that, I think you ought to be able to.   (Nothing's cooler than Smuggling a Grand Market from someone who has worked hard to be able to buy one.)

Anyway, my take on the card is that it's a cool idea but way too swingy based on what else is in the kingdom.  A dead card often (no villages or other durations), too weak to bother with usually (villages but no other durations), and a powerhouse occasionally (non-terminal duration cards present).  The hugeness of the range of possible benefits remind me of Donald X's problem with his original draft of Duke ("Worth 1 VP for every Duke in your deck").  At its weakest, it's a terminal Caravan (undesirable even at $2); at the next level up, it's a buyless Wharf (still strong at $5); above that, it's out of control.  Those are huge jumps.

The scaling issue might be solvable by using a threshold mechanic instead of a scaling one, which is how Conspirator and Fool's Gold works.  Maybe something like "If you have 2 or more duration cards in play (including this), then now and on your next turn, +2 Cards."   Not necessarily those exact numbers, but that structure.

However, while that (maybe) solves the problem of it becoming too strong in some kingdoms, it doesn't do anything about it being a dead card in others.  It needs to work without outside support.  How do we do that?  Make this conditionally a non-terminal.  Something like "If you have no other duration cards in play, +1 Card, +1 Action."  That's not a sufficient solution, because it still only lets us play two per turn without outside help, and the benefit is too small for it to be worth trying to collide two copies together.  If we consider this problem in light of the suggestion to make the drawing benefit next-turn-only, we chance upon a convenient solution:

+1 Card, +1 Action.  If you have at least two Duration cards in play (including this), then at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
While this is in play, you may not buy a copy of this card.


Now we can spam multiples now, then play a huge hand later.  When you collide two in your hand, you get a next-turn Wharf.  When you collide three, you get almost a next-turn Tactician.  This is still pretty strong, but the buy restriction imposes a penalty on anyone seeking to rush the pile, as in order to buy another copy, you have to refrain from playing the ones in your hand.   This penalty is actually a bigger deal in this version of the card than in the original, because this version would otherwise be free to play; with the original, maybe you just play a different terminal.

How does this play when there is outside support?  Well, if any other durations are present, you can try to line them up and thereby not have to waste the first one.  (Somewhat akin to how, in Conspirator games, sometimes you have to get the chain started with one Village and one unenabled Conspirator -- it's fine, but you'd rather have had that first one enabled.)  So it's a good thing, but not game-breakingly stronger.

More significantly, the presence of other duration cards double your chances of colliding this card with another duration card.  Because you don't just have to draw it in hand with another duration card.  You can draw it in the hand after you play another duration card.  (Note that unenabled copies of this card don't get left out until the next turn.)  So that adds to the power level.  But still perhaps not gamebreakingly strong.

Now, how to price it?  I think it would be weak for $5, but I'd be nervous about it at $4 except that the buy restriction makes it harder to accrue multiples.  Because of that, I actually wonder if $3 would be fine.  You don't have to worry too much about $3 making them easier to pick up with extra buys, just because of the buy restriction.  And opening with two of this card doesn't seem gamebreakingly strong.  So I'm going to guess $3 is okay.  However, that's a very sketchy guess.  It's hard for me to envision how this would play in a real game.

Anyway, that's my take.  It may be that this version of the card loses what intrigued you about your draft, in which case, oh well, back to the drawing board.  But hopefully my ruminating will help you refine it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 01:05:48 pm »
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+1 Card, +1 Action.  If you have at least two Duration cards in play (including this), then at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
While this is in play, you may not buy a copy of this card.


Now we can spam multiples now, then play a huge hand later.  When you collide two in your hand, you get a next-turn Wharf.  When you collide three, you get almost a next-turn Tactician.  This is still pretty strong, but the buy restriction imposes a penalty on anyone seeking to rush the pile, as in order to buy another copy, you have to refrain from playing the ones in your hand.   This penalty is actually a bigger deal in this version of the card than in the original, because this version would otherwise be free to play; with the original, maybe you just play a different terminal.

I think the phrasing still needs work.  When it says "if you have at least 2 Duration cards in play", does that count Durations from the previous turn, or only Durations played this turn?  I can see both working, but the former makes it much easier to chain.
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jider

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 01:21:36 pm »
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While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
So what happens if one of these is in play, and somebody Swindles a card into it?
Anything else, or sometimes nothing to replace the swindled card !
Change the word "gain" to "buy," and you're all set.
You shouldn't need to do this.  If this card is in play and another similar cost card gets swindled, the swindling player simply cannot give you this card (whatever the name is).  If there are no other $4's, you just gain nothing instead, which would be unfortunate.
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rinkworks

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 01:32:23 pm »
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+1 Card, +1 Action.  If you have at least two Duration cards in play (including this), then at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
While this is in play, you may not buy a copy of this card.


Now we can spam multiples now, then play a huge hand later.  When you collide two in your hand, you get a next-turn Wharf.  When you collide three, you get almost a next-turn Tactician.  This is still pretty strong, but the buy restriction imposes a penalty on anyone seeking to rush the pile, as in order to buy another copy, you have to refrain from playing the ones in your hand.   This penalty is actually a bigger deal in this version of the card than in the original, because this version would otherwise be free to play; with the original, maybe you just play a different terminal.

I think the phrasing still needs work.  When it says "if you have at least 2 Duration cards in play", does that count Durations from the previous turn, or only Durations played this turn?  I can see both working, but the former makes it much easier to chain.

Previous turn's duration cards count as well.  This is not ambiguous, actually, as this distinction already matters for Peddler and Conspirator (Peddler's wording counts Durations in play from the previous turn; Conspirator's wording doesn't), and the rulings on those are clear.
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rinkworks

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 01:49:59 pm »
+2

While this is in play, you may not gain a copy of (this card name here)
So what happens if one of these is in play, and somebody Swindles a card into it?
Anything else, or sometimes nothing to replace the swindled card !
Change the word "gain" to "buy," and you're all set.
You shouldn't need to do this.  If this card is in play and another similar cost card gets swindled, the swindling player simply cannot give you this card (whatever the name is).  If there are no other $4's, you just gain nothing instead, which would be unfortunate.

Strongly disagree here.  There's nothing on the Swindler card preventing the opposing player from choosing this card, just because it MIGHT result in breaking this card's rule.  I say "might" because what if the receiving player has Trader, reveals it, and gains a Silver instead?  In that case, the player never gains this card, and thus this card's rules are satisfied, despite the fact that the opponent chose this card via Swindler.  Does it make sense that another player can't do something if there's a chance it might result in a particular thing happening?

Not convinced?  Then how about any number of other examples that would cause such a conflict?

* Upgrade: You trash a 3-cost card with Upgrade and now MUST gain a $4 card if one is available.  If this card (assuming it costs $4) is the only one available, you MUST gain a copy, because Upgrade mandates that you do so.  So Upgrade says you do; this card says you don't.  Which one wins?  There is nothing inherent about the rules of Dominion or either card that would make it clear which rule takes precedence.  No matter what you do, you're breaking the rules of one card or the other.

* Remake/Develop/Farmland/Governor:  Same issues can happen with these cards.

* Jester:  Similar problem with Swindler.  Jester says it's your choice whether you gain the card or your opponent does.  No other card restricts this choice in any way, for good reason -- if one did, it would be impossible to play by the rules of both cards.  If the player playing Jester chooses to gain a copy of the revealed card, then he must gain it.  Now, if there are no other copies in the supply pile, that's okay, because there is an overall rule to cover that case -- but you still ATTEMPT to gain the card!

Now, you might argue that the way to resolve this is that you do then attempt to gain the card, get stopped from doing so, and so nothing happens.  Two problems with this:  (1) This still wouldn't be the behavior that you are suggesting, because the player of Swindler could still choose this card, and the player of Jester could still choose to gain a copy; and (2) that's not what the card says.  What I'm describing now would be an event that triggers upon gaining -- or attempting to gain -- the card.  But "You may not gain a copy of this card" is not an event, it's a rule.  If you actually wanted this behavior, you'd have to say something beginning with "When," such as:  "When you gain this card, if you have a copy of this card in play, return this to the supply."  Something like that.   It's awkward, clunky, and kind of lame.  So why not change "gain" to "buy" and bypass all that complexity and silliness?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 01:53:00 pm by rinkworks »
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Graystripe77

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 02:02:04 pm »
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I'm not changing gain to buy, because of cards like Workshop and Ironworks.

So yea, the gain being forced may cause problems, so...

How 'bout this:

Action Duration: $4

+1 card
+$1
At the start of your next turn, choose up to 4 duration cards in play, +1 card per Duration card chosen.
-----
While this is in play, if you gain a copy of (This card name), return it to the supply.
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rinkworks

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 02:06:17 pm »
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That probably works, or at least is worth playtesting.

I don't really see the point of restricting gains, though.  Most of the time, it won't be an issue, and in the cases where it is, it blocks a cool combo for no real interesting reason.  Particularly since your rewrite is always terminal, it may not even be a very good strategy to overload on them.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 04:55:05 pm »
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I choose all the durations my opponents have in play.  ;)

Does this new wording conflict with Watchtower or Royal Seal, or does it take precedence over them?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2012, 05:17:19 pm »
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I think rinkworks is 100% right that you should just change 'gain' to 'buy' and let the combos with gainers exist. In general, it's better to have a card be worded more simply and allow some unintended interactions rather than turn the card text into a twisted mess just so that the card functions in exactly the way you want.

That being said, if you absolutely cannot abide allowing gains, how about, "While this is in play, <CardName> is not in the Supply."
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Graystripe77

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Re: Random Card Idea, untested
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 08:36:02 pm »
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Alright, it seems changing gain to buy was a good idea. Played with it for five games with gainers, and it worked just fine.
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