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[NoMoreFun]

I'm sure this is a dead horse, but why is adventurer so expensive?

If you think of it as a terminal money card, it gives you the average value of all your treasures*2 right? Terminal Silver is reasonably priced at $2, and that's what adventurer would give if you opened with it. In order for it to on average, give you terminal gold (which is valued at $5 in various other threads), you need to have 7 silvers if you don't trash any of your starting coppers (and if there's trashing available you wouldn't need a card like adventurer in the first place). It does have the effect of skipping through dead cards and accelerating your deck for reshuffles, but it also skips through actions that you might want to use and I wouldn't put too much value on that effect. I can understand it will be a very strong card late game when you've got a lot of clutter in your deck, but cost isn't so relevant late game. I'd say Adventurer would be perfectly reasonable at $4 (or even $3 if it weren't for +buys).

Have any simulations been run with Adventurer at different costs?

[eHalcyon]

From Secret Histories:

Adventurer: For a while the main set did not have an action costing 6. I thought it would be good if it did. At some point we decided to go with 25 Kingdom cards (it was 25, then 20, then 25 again), so there was space for a 6, and I went looking through the expansions for the most appropriate one - something interesting but not too weird that wasn't too tied to its expansion. I took Adventurer from the 7th expansion. I don't know how many expansions Dominion will actually get, all printed and everything, but my friends were insatiable, so I cranked out a lot of cards.

Now consider that we've only seen 6 expansions.  Though they are released out of the originally planned order, by #7 we'd have a plethora of special Treasure cards and probably Platinum as well.  Adventurer is stronger with those cards around.

But yeah, people still consider it a weak $6.

[Robz888]

Adventurer is certainly the weakest $6 card, but I don't think it works at any other price. Certainly not $4 or $3. Think of, like, Spice Merchant with a $4 Adventurer.

[NoMoreFun]

Another reason I ask is because reading the secret histories, farming village was originally a $2 card that only gave +1 action. Adventurer is like playing 2 of those cards, but terminal and it discards actions too.

The pair I can most relate is Upgrade and Remake. Upgrade costs $5, and remake, which is like playing 2 upgrades but terminal, costs $4. See where I'm going here?

[eHalcyon]

Upgrade also draws a card!

[Titandrake]

Because if Adventurer was worth getting, it would make the game boring.

Compare to Harvest and Counting House, the other sources of pure terminal money. Harvest encourages you to buy variety, so maybe you pick up a non-terminal or two. It's not required, but you could get more money out of it. Counting House encourages you to buy lots of Copper while making sure you can actually play your Counting House. Neither card is particularly good, and picking them up is pretty uncommon, but both push you towards making decisions you might not normally make. That's good. Variety in gameplay and all that.

Adventurer encourages you to buy good treasure, and trash bad ones if you can. That's what you'd do in ~90% of games anyways.

Really, I just don't like Adventurer from a mechanics standpoint, but I like the flavor of it enough to let it slide.

[iangoth]

If adventurer cost $4, it would be too strong, because when you first buy it, it nets you slightly more than $2 on average, which isn't that bad for $4, and it keeps improving as the game goes on, to where it nets you $3-$4. It would probably work at $5, though. Or maybe as a still weak $6 with a +buy, as someone recently suggested (I forget who, sorry).

[Tables]

You need 7 Silvers to make it average the same as a Gold, but only 2 Silvers, 2 Golds, which isn't an unlikely amount to hit by about the point you start greening. And of course extra silver/gold from there only helps Adventurer more.

I do think it'd work at $5. It compares very reasonably to Harvest, and is probably slightly better, but Harvest is fairly meh so that's okay. That said, it does become much better with kingdom treasures, especially Platinum.

[rinkworks]

I think Adventurer would be fine at $5, but it's also fine at $6.  It's just one of those narrow cards, like Counting House, that is rare to find a use for, but fun when you do.

The ideal Adventurer board (for me) has Moneylender as the only trasher, and perhaps Cursers flying around.  For an extra bonus, some sort of non-terminal +Buy like Market or, better yet, Worker's Village.  The point is, if you can trash your Coppers, Adventurer becomes awesome, worth anywhere from +$4 to +$6 (or even more, in Platinum games).  Moreover, it becomes important, since if you have a lot of non-Copper junk in your hand, Adventurer might be the only good way to get a lot of money together in one place and thereby afford Provinces (or Colonies).

So yes, I do think it works at $5, but on the right board it is a bargain at $6.  I don't think that's true of, say, Harvest.  Anyway, that right Adventurer board might not come around very often, but when it does it's pretty sweet.

[Lekkit]

I think Harvest is one of the most underrated $5's.

[jmieden]

From Secret Histories:

Adventurer: For a while the main set did not have an action costing 6. I thought it would be good if it did. At some point we decided to go with 25 Kingdom cards (it was 25, then 20, then 25 again), so there was space for a 6, and I went looking through the expansions for the most appropriate one - something interesting but not too weird that wasn't too tied to its expansion. I took Adventurer from the 7th expansion. I don't know how many expansions Dominion will actually get, all printed and everything, but my friends were insatiable, so I cranked out a lot of cards.

Now consider that we've only seen 6 expansions.  Though they are released out of the originally planned order, by #7 we'd have a plethora of special Treasure cards and probably Platinum as well.  Adventurer is stronger with those cards around.

But yeah, people still consider it a weak $6.

I just played a 3p game yesterday IRL where Bank, Venture, Adventurer, Thief and Platinum were the winning strategy. I agree that in the base set, it seems a bit expensive for what it gives you, but I've definitely played games in which Adventurer was a very important part of the best strategy and fit the $6 price well. It can be huge late game when slogging through VP too.

Adventurer can work really handily as well with chapelling, as your money density plummets once you start greening, but doesn't have copper to inhibit great return on playing Adventurer.

[brokoli]

The ideal Adventurer board (for me) has Moneylender as the only trasher, and perhaps Cursers flying around.  For an extra bonus, some sort of non-terminal +Buy like Market or, better yet, Worker's Village. 

Moneylender ? Why not Spice Merchant : non-terminal (if you choose the laboratory option) so it won't collide with Adventurer. but it can give the +buy too...

[ehunt]

Because otherwise Gold would be OP as a defense against swindler.

[popsofctown]

I think the card could work at 5$.  It's no more boring than several other BM 5's

[Robz888]

I think Harvest is one of the most underrated $5's.

In a sense, I agree with you. I think I buy Harvest a little more than the average person (I could check Council Room, but how about I just blindly assert this instead). I swear it's way more likely to yield $4 than $2, and you don't have to like, purposefully vary your deck.

The interesting thing though is that a terminal card that gives you $3 and often $4 (though sometimes $2) just isn't really worth it, that often. Compare to Merchant Ship. $2 now, $2 next turn. That's just a lot better, really. And Merchant Ship isn't even an elite $5 card, just a good one.

[rinkworks]

The ideal Adventurer board (for me) has Moneylender as the only trasher, and perhaps Cursers flying around.  For an extra bonus, some sort of non-terminal +Buy like Market or, better yet, Worker's Village. 

Moneylender ? Why not Spice Merchant : non-terminal (if you choose the laboratory option) so it won't collide with Adventurer. but it can give the +buy too...

Mostly because I don't own Hinterlands yet and am not used to thinking about Spice Merchant.  But you're totally right -- it seems like a great combo!

I think Harvest is one of the most underrated $5's.

While I wouldn't go that far, I also think Harvest is underrated.  My comment, comparing it unfavorably with Adventurer, was just to illustrate that it makes sense that Adventurer would cost more:  Adventurer doesn't cap out at $4 and allows you to pull in special Treasures.  But at $5, Harvest is a solid card.  It's not great, but I do think it's underappreciated.

[clb]

While I wouldn't go that far, I also think Harvest is underrated.  My comment, comparing it unfavorably with Adventurer, was just to illustrate that it makes sense that Adventurer would cost more:  Adventurer doesn't cap out at $4 and allows you to pull in special Treasures.  But at $5, Harvest is a solid card.  It's not great, but I do think it's underappreciated.

I had an IRL game with 6 poeple and pirate ship. Aside from being very long and very painful, it made me appreciate harvest. It was the only source of non-treasure money on the board (aside from the pirate ship). At the end of the game, my one remaining silver and two harvests were enough to four-pile before the people with valuable pirate ships were able to steal the game (pun intended).
Similarly, with a + actoins card, harvest can substitute, not beautifully, but perhaps adequately, for vault in a double-tac deck.
These might be fringe cases, but I've played them both. Maybe I'm just a fringe member of society anyway...

[brokoli]

The interesting thing though is that a terminal card that gives you $3 and often $4 (though sometimes $2) just isn't really worth it, that often. Compare to Merchant Ship. $2 now, $2 next turn. That's just a lot better, really. And Merchant Ship isn't even an elite $5 card, just a good one.

I disagree about this part. I think merchant ship and Harvest are about the same level.
Merchant ship is a duration card, so it miss the reshuffle more often.
But Harvest is also a slight counter to some attacks : Ghost ship, rabble, sometimes sea hag.
And really, it gives almost never $2 or $1.

[ehunt]

Does the conventional wisdom underbuy adventurer in platinum games? I am beginning to think yes.

[Rabid]

The interesting thing though is that a terminal card that gives you $3 and often $4 (though sometimes $2) just isn't really worth it, that often. Compare to Merchant Ship. $2 now, $2 next turn. That's just a lot better, really. And Merchant Ship isn't even an elite $5 card, just a good one.

I disagree about this part. I think merchant ship and Harvest are about the same level.
Merchant ship is a duration card, so it miss the reshuffle more often.
But Harvest is also a slight counter to some attacks : Ghost ship, rabble, sometimes sea hag.
And really, it gives almost never $2 or $1.

Opening 5/2 with harvest, it will usually only give $2 the first time you draw it.

[brokoli]

The interesting thing though is that a terminal card that gives you $3 and often $4 (though sometimes $2) just isn't really worth it, that often. Compare to Merchant Ship. $2 now, $2 next turn. That's just a lot better, really. And Merchant Ship isn't even an elite $5 card, just a good one.

I disagree about this part. I think merchant ship and Harvest are about the same level.
Merchant ship is a duration card, so it miss the reshuffle more often.
But Harvest is also a slight counter to some attacks : Ghost ship, rabble, sometimes sea hag.
And really, it gives almost never $2 or $1.

Opening 5/2 with harvest, it will usually only give $2 the first time you draw it.

Yes but really, that is a really bad use for Harvest.

[Rabid]

True, but I think the opening 2 shuffles are the most important, when setting the costs of cards.

[jomini]

Adventurer is not so great when the best thing you could draw is a gold and the only thing to skip are your pricey actions and your VP cards.

On the other hand, adventurer can be phenomenal when you have very strong treasures and a bunch of dross. The obvious case is plat - it takes very few plats to make adventurer almost strictly better than gold. Likewise, if you have curses or estates (followers/ambassador), not having to draw the curse this shuffle can be huge. Other treasures, like bank, venture, and even fools gold can make adventurer a better buy than gold.

Pricing something that can reliably draw two plats or a bank + venture  has to make it expensive, otherwise too many games would degenerate into buy some expensive treasures and then just adventurer them constantly.

[yudantaiteki]

I wonder if Adventurer would be much better if it skipped coppers.  I'm not immediately sure whether that would encourage me to buy it more...probably not.

[Lekkit]

If it skipped Coppers I would probably buy one or two before Gold. Yealding at least 4 if you don't have all your Silvers in hand is really good.