I'm gonna lurk
/in
/in
Welcome :)
X-1. If someone signs up in the next couple hours I can start N0 tonight!
good old asher9++ oh how i missed you.
/in twice
X-1. If someone signs up in the next couple hours I can start N0 tonight!good old asher9++ oh how i missed you.
/in twice
No no no - I think you’re good. LaLight in’ed twice.
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
Jimmmmmmm! Hi friend! How you been? It’s been a minute.
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
that's sus. ll vented. emergency meeting. ll killed green.
amogus
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
that's sus. ll vented. emergency meeting. ll killed green.
amogus
I've also never played. But I don't know the memes. This meant nothing to me.
Vote: MiX
Because... it's MiX?
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
No, I just care about fashion! Light purple is universally flattering
Vote: Lalight for being the co mod.
I'm gonna leave my vote here for three days until I realize you're not the co mod.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Vote: iguana
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguana
For the same reasons faust did.
You mean..gkrieg?
Vote: iguanaI mean, those were some good reasons, can't argue with myself.
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguanaI mean, those were some good reasons, can't argue with myself.
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguana
Vote: Lalight for being the co mod.
I'm gonna leave my vote here for three days until I realize you're not the co mod.
MiX analyzes my post in great detail... but misses that I was making a throwback to how I started the last game by voting for the comod for three days straight?
Early wagons are great. We need another.
Vote: Joth
I think I predetermine my first post in every game I play. That's how I ended up voting Lalight last time. So NAI there I guess.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Seems like you have to me. You didn't even answer math's question. So, are you town?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Seems like you have to me. You didn't even answer math's question. So, are you town?
Claiming town is meaningless, but I guess I can do it if you want me to.
Ahem
I am town
You know who we should never, ever fly under the radar? EFHW. She’s got scary mind control skills. (Also, I’m still salty.)
Vote: EFHW
Hi Joth! Hi faust! Hi MiX!
Swowl, what beach?? Also I’m writhing with envy.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Hi Joth! Hi faust! Hi MiX!
Swowl, what beach?? Also I’m writhing with envy.
Cabo San Lucas!
You know who we should never, ever fly under the radar? EFHW. She’s got scary mind control skills. (Also, I’m still salty.)
Vote: EFHW
Considering they were caught for basically no reason D2, I disagree with this statement.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.Did you guys read the mafia QT?
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.Did you guys read the mafia QT?
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
I don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
Hi Everybody!
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Did you guys read the mafia QT?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
It doesn't say he's town. It doesn't say anything. The capitalized "Everybody" and the exclamation mark says the post wasn't made in 1 second, but at the same time, it begs a second paragraph with random early thoughts which aren't there.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
It doesn't say he's town. It doesn't say anything. The capitalized "Everybody" and the exclamation mark says the post wasn't made in 1 second, but at the same time, it begs a second paragraph with random early thoughts which aren't there.
If you must know it was a very oblique Simpson’s reference but nobody chimed in with “Hi, Doctor Nick” so there you go.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Where’s the “V”?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Where’s the “V”?
I was talking to faust. This was your only post before he voted for you without explanation.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
If 3 posts with less than 50 words between them are enough to get a solid read on me then I definitely need to put some serious work into my scum game.Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
If 3 posts with less than 50 words between them are enough to get a solid read on me then I definitely need to put some serious work into my scum game.Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
Oh whoops. I also lost Memento as scum recently. I'll keep digging for a real win.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Wagons lead to wagon analysis which is good. Having wagons forces people to express opinions on the people that are wagoned when they might otherwise prefer to ignore them. It also forces the player that the wagon is on to engage, which also provides useful interactions.But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Say more about that.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
I hate that FDS meta makes it towny to do a thing I consider to be the most scummy (fishing around for a “viable” wagon rather than properly scum hunting).
I actually believe it’s possible to productively scumhunt without forcing a bunch of claims and giving scum cover to pull off a town exile, which is what wagons for wagons’ sake usually accomplishes. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.I do not think discussing what sucm would and would not claim is a useful topic of discussion. Quite the opposite.
so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
Is there anything there that you'd like to be known? It matters for this game for your interaction with faust.No, just offering evidence for not having super powers.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Come on people. MiX is a good wagon.
. By this do you mean that WCD frequently scum reads you early on?I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
. By this do you mean that WCD frequently scum reads you early on?I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This was true before, but not now: what do you think about math's answer to your question?
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
@EFHW, obviously you're not voting. Any scum reads though?
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
Ok I know I just said Didds was town, but quick gut check: does town Didds push this hard this early? I feel like Didds isn’t usually quite this confident or assertive in her Day 1 reads.
Responding to EFHW….
It is true that I scum read EFHW often. She is hard for me to read, no question. I find her cagey and super sharp, but for me the difference between scum!EFHW and town!EFHW is the quality of her questions. When she’s town, the questions are smart and incisive. When she is scum the questions don’t do much or reveal anything.
Thus far in this game, I find her questions more like the latter than the former. It’s early in the day so this could change, obvi, but since yesterday her questions have not been probing, and today she has been defensive about a tiny wagon.
The post was the scummiest to me:Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
The assumption that all the votes thus far were RVS has been discussed by faust and others who don’t think about their votes as random. So, the first assumption is flawed. And then her question isn’t incisive or probing.
It’s just seems like EFHW-lite, to me.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Ok, Jimmmmm is scum because he's not engaging much. And then he does exactly what he's calling out for people not to do.Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
No explanation? I'm not sure what to do with that. Oh, how about
Vote: Jimmmmm?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
EFHW, This is the one that felt defensive to memath, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
PPE: 1
I don't see it.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Ok, Jimmmmm is scum because he's not engaging much. And then he does exactly what he's calling out for people not to do.Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
No explanation? I'm not sure what to do with that. Oh, how about
Vote: Jimmmmm?
If you read the preceding post you'll find that Didds offered an explanation for her read on EFHW.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
I don't need any amount of trust to move my vote at this point.Or we'll exile you. That would be the preferred outcome.
No I don't feel nervous having votes without reasons. Presumably either reasons will come or they'll be moved before Day's end.
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
Not more than any town exile is bad.Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
It would certainly be bad if he flips town.
Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
So why did you engage in this discussion?Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
I'm not sure we're any closer to exiling scum.
The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I bet my win record is worse than either of y'alls.
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I bet my win record is worse than either of y'alls.
I have reached the critical point of faust that I only want to misexile them.Probably not. You never know though.
Faust, do you think this discussion will help catch a wolf?
What is it that i am doing that I was doing as scum?I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Welcome to playing with MiX! And apparently faust is being MiX now too. I can't scumread MiX for it... But faust was doing this last game as scum for scum reasons and now he's doing it again.
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I don't see the case for Jim at all. Looking through his ISO... he's done nothing but scumhunt. Is scumhunting supposed to be scummy now?Can you point me to posts where Jimmmmm scumhunts?
This is in my personal QT from that game by the way, I could share that if it helps and if joth thinks it's fine. Otherwise joth can confirm.Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Yes.The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
Are you suggesting that I should argue my own Towniness absent any arguments for my scumminess?
This is in my personal QT from that game by the way, I could share that if it helps and if joth thinks it's fine. Otherwise joth can confirm.Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Amazing.Vote: Jimmmmm
Vote: Jimmmmm
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Yes, I'm eager to get wagons. It's better to actually get people closer to X-1 or X-2 and see throughout the 5 or 7 days how people react, rather than having everyone at 1 or 2 votes until the final 6 hours when only the few online get a say in who gets exiled. If we get real wagons on many people throughout D1, then there's a lot more to look back at in later days. That's how we could find scum.
So I guess I agree with faust... hmmm, that makes me nervous. Oh well, it's D1. I can change my mind about him later if needed
Maybe it's that I don't know most people's playstyles well enough to "productively scumhunt", but wagon analysis is the best option I have most of the time.
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
Ok I know I just said Didds was town, but quick gut check: does town Didds push this hard this early? I feel like Didds isn’t usually quite this confident or assertive in her Day 1 reads.
Not more than any town exile is bad.Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
It would certainly be bad if he flips town.
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.
But in that same post (the part I snipped) you gave another list of people that you didn't know about. So did you just make a quick decision on them being townie for now? If so, what has made them townie so far?
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
Which post was this?
I don't see the case for Jim at all. Looking through his ISO... he's done nothing but scumhunt. Is scumhunting supposed to be scummy now?Can you point me to posts where Jimmmmm scumhunts?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
.
Here, Jim changed his mind and was convinced to vote EFHW based on a case by WCD. I guess what made this look like scumhunting to me is that he didn't vote EFHW (who was already a sort of alternative wagon to him) until WCD gave reasons, and implies that the reasons convinced him. As scum, I think maybe he would have already been voting EFHW before WCD made the case. So, it is sheeping, but it looks like sheeping because he's looking for scum.
Could he be scum just fabricating this? Sure. Anyone could be still. But on D1 I don't see the point to punish a player for scumhunting unless there is a good argument that they really look like scum themselves. So I think Jim is a bad vote.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.was a joke. I accidentally hit post before I could add an emoji :P
On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.
This was true before, but not now: what do you think about math's answer to your question?
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
It’s perception, so I think it’s fair for other people not to see it.
I see it as defensive because it begins with a deflection on the topic (MiX wanted an answer), then a shrug (I don’t play this way but some people do), then a deflection (maybe that’s what Joth vote was).
Come on people. MiX is a good wagon.
Here is the exhorting I mentioned in my last post.
There is a significant lack of research on mafia game theory unfortunately.Maybe it's that I don't know most people's playstyles well enough to "productively scumhunt", but wagon analysis is the best option I have most of the time.
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.
Has anyone ever shown that wagon analysis is helpful? I mean I do it too, but do we know if it is meaningful?
Scum could likely get away easier on a wagon with no explanation.No they couldn't. It would in fact be harder for them to get away with that. If reasons were provided, then scum can just say "I agreed with the reasons given by gkrieg". If no reasons were provided, then they have to come up with convincing reasons themselves.
So can you explain what the supposed pro town reason of routinely hiding the reasons for your D1 votes is?Yes, sure. The first reason is it makes it harder for scum to hide. As explained in my answer to gkrieg above, having reasons makes it easy for scum to engage with the case - they just choose to agree or disagree with the reasons. If reasons are not given then they have to actively come up with a fake read without the guide of reading other player's reads. That is harder and thus playing that way makes it easier to catch scum.
Can you point to any recent town game where you've done this?You can probably look at any recent game where I've been town. However I replaced out early from Memento and Dwarves was bastard, so the best reasource is probably M134. I have a bunch of unexplained votes there.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
Having done some re-reading I'm less than convinced about the EFHW wagon and will probably move my vote soon.
Didds, do you think you could be tunneling EFHW?
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
EBWOPI am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothingWhat definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.to withfor the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.Oh yeah, and now a policy vote! I'm sure that is going to move the game forward.
I am leading us down?
In the very post that you quoted I have argued why what I posted was helpful content. If you disagree (which you do by saying that none of my content was helpful) then you need to argue against that.I am leading us down?
Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
...okay, I'm going to stop here, you get my point I believe.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.
Thanks for the reason!
It's tough when you have a reputation for inactivity. I'd like to get away from it, and it's not really worth playing if I'm not going to be actively involved in the game, but any attempt to be more active is inevitably going to be seen as scummy. I'm certainly not going to limit my posting in order to avoid suspicion.
If it helps, I'm stuck at home due to lockdown, so I have more time on my hands than I would otherwise have.
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
I don't know about you, faust, but this post tells me you're both town.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.
I am focused on winning this game. If you want to have that discussion we can make a separate thread for it once this game is over.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though. My votes are there, I tend to vote for my scumreads. Sometimes I even state my reads on players I am not currently voting for. You are free to use this information to infer my alignment. I am not sure how my giving reasons for every vote would help you in that process.I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.
And by refusing to talk about your reads, you're limiting discussion about you to this.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
I was about to write a snarky response, but it's no use escalating this. I do not deny that there are things that I refuse to talk about. I am sure that there are things that you refuse to talk about, too, otherwise you would tell me your role now. The only difference is where we draw the line. i am willing to discuss some things when I feel it is beneficial to discuss them. Someone I think is scum wanting to know is not grounds for me to change my mind though.I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
The things he said that made you react like that, and the reaction itself, tells me that you subconsciously think that he's being honest and genuine.What does is matter what I think?
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.
Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)
Again, I am not willing to engage in discussion about playstyles. How you get your reads is your business. I am putting enough content out there to be read.Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.
Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)
I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
This actually looked like a sarcasm, which would make even more posts appear that distract people (which actually happened!)
I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?
This is a continuation of discussion from the Oz game. I am really happy to see faust's explanation of why he does naked votes.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
and this is actually why I think all the "give me reasons you're town" questions are meaningless unless there's something like "I helped exile two scum already"
Finally, reasons are often not much more than a confirmation-biased reread of someone you already gut-read as scum. If you type them out you only lean more into that confirmation bias. And you've created a position now that you will feel that you need to defend, which psychologically makes it even harder to remain open and fight the bias.
You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.
This is sort of my take on the whole faust opinion of providing naked votes.
If faust is town, it helps him get better reads as others reply, respond, react, and interact. If people get defensive, or ignore things, or jump on a wagon, or infer reasons or add reasons from their own confirmation bias, it can tell him things, since he knows what reasons he started things for.
But if faust is scum, it allows him to put "reads" on people without giving reasons, it lets him test where others want to start wagons, let's him look involved (shows up in vote counts) without actually saying much, and generally seem "town" (in his opinion) because he's following his meta.
He's got (and/or is building) a meta that lets him completely fly under the radar when he is scum because it doesn't require faking anything.
The problem with this whole thing is that it seems helpful to him, from his perspective, no matter his alignment. But it does nothing to make the rest of us believe he's town because it's just as easy for him to claim that he's doing the same thing he always does, whether town or scum. So the responses to his blind votes don't mean anything to us since we don't know why he initially posted it.
So overall, faust's strategy is good for him, bad for the rest of us. The biggest problem is that he could be genuinely trying to be helpful town, but just as easily could be scum easily hiding behind his D1 meta.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Oh look you conveniently ignored my other post which contains stuff that is not meta-based!Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!I'm afraid you failed, unfortunately.
faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him....thanks?
No, thank you.faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him....thanks?
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Lol.
Vote: joth
Vote: e cause you're partners.
faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him. Like he’s really trying in good faith to get past an argument he finds unproductive.
Jimmmmm is trying to have the meta-argument while also gently implying faust is scum wherever possible. The vote was just a little over the top. Thinly veiled OMGUS.
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Prod: e
I guess? Though if anyone feels this way about the EFHW wagon then I think that person should tell us that and explain why they feel that way. If you feel so strongly about a wagon that you are willing to go against a bunch of your townreads then you have some insight that is worth sharing. That hasn't happened, so I think it's safe to assume that noone believes it.Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
I do want to call out a fallacy here, possibly a scummy one, which is that town-driven wagon =/= wagon on scum. If Jimmmmm thinks that the EFHW wagon is a misguided, but town-driven, wagon, then it's not the case that it's beneficial to join it and also not the case that faust has voted for scum. faust has tried to create a dichotomy here but has intentionally excluded an option to make that dichotomy seem to exonerate him. So, some scumpoints for faust.
[-snip-]
I would have preferred to avoid the meta argument entirely, but sadly there's nothing else to talk about when it comes to faust's game.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
Prod: Swowl
I think he's realized that the thing he wants to do while sunbathing at the beach is not forum mafia.
mathdude, those were a couple of really good and insightful posts.Which ones, the meta posts? They did nothing for this game, so I would not call them good.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Lol.
Vote: joth
Vote: e cause you're partners.
If my main concern was dissolving a wagon on me, coming out against faust would not be the way to do that.
trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!I'm afraid you failed, unfortunately.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Policy vote anyone? "3rd vote on my town-read is scum".
Or OMGUS because we're voting your partner?
It feels super awesome when you actually end up being right.
.......Except I have an abysmal track record of actually being right
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Policy vote anyone? "3rd vote on my town-read is scum".
Or OMGUS because we're voting your partner?
Ah, I see. You needed to give me more material to prove that you are scum.
Greatly appreciated
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Conveniently ignores joth...
Conveniently ignores joth...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
Joth has a D1 pass, remember?White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Conveniently ignores joth...
Conveniently ignores joth...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
The latter.
mathdude, those were a couple of really good and insightful posts.Which ones, the meta posts? They did nothing for this game, so I would not call them good.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
If my main concern was dissolving a wagon on me, coming out against faust would not be the way to do that.
Not a valid defense, but I don't like exiling jimmmm just out of personal bias. I should probably reread jimmmmm
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
If angry is too strong a word, then when did your negative feelings peak?Peak negative feelings was definitely here:
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
If it was pro-Town then everyone should do itThis is a fallacy.
I think this kind of acti-lurking is significantly worse than lurking, and if we "exile all lurkers" as an attempt to disincentivise lurking, then we should do something similar for this.Please explain how what I do is worse than lurking.
I did lean into the argument a bitThis to me really illustrates how disingenuous the post i quoted for my peak negative feelings really was.
If it was pro-Town then everyone should do itThis is a fallacy.
I think this kind of acti-lurking is significantly worse than lurking, and if we "exile all lurkers" as an attempt to disincentivise lurking, then we should do something similar for this.Please explain how what I do is worse than lurking.
I did lean into the argument a bitThis to me really illustrates how disingenuous the post i quoted for my peak negative feelings really was.
[-snip-]
I would have preferred to avoid the meta argument entirely, but sadly there's nothing else to talk about when it comes to faust's game.
I don't think you can say this any more in good faith. faust has divulged quite a bit. He shared his opinion on the EFHW wagon, gave more of a read on MiX, etc. He's playing less one dimensionally than you are giving him credit for in your argument.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
The things he said that made you react like that, and the reaction itself, tells me that you subconsciously think that he's being honest and genuine.What does is matter what I think?
Also, the fact that scum can be honest and genuine about these things was like, the entire point i tried to make earlier.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
Conveniently ignores joth...
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.[...]
Nothing here sheds any light to me on [...] faust's read on MiX.
Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
He's scummy.
And uh I was also townreading Jimmmmm before this recent discussion.
Anyway, it would be cool if we had other wagons, or maybe even just collapse on EFHW. I'll reread the game in a few hours and decide then.
Ok, I'm going to respond to one question directed at me, then give my 2 cents on the 2 pages of excessive banter while trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?
Specifically, the quoted post felt artificial. Then looking at the post he quoted, and the 2 or 3 that followed, it felt to me like Jimmmmm was trying to create interaction ... I don't know, it just didn't feel like genuine town posting to me. (No, don't ask me what town posting feels like... it was just my gut feel.)
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
He's scummy.And uh I was also townreading Jimmmmm before this recent discussion.
Anyway, it would be cool if we had other wagons, or maybe even just collapse on EFHW. I'll reread the game in a few hours and decide then.
MiX, what and when was the change in your attitude towards me between these posts, which are 17 hours apart?
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
why?
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
why?
Because she brought up the faust/Jimmmmm argument again, for what it seems like no real reason.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
I want to sort out if either of them is scummy for that argument.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
joth says Didds is Towny, although that wavered a bit.
Didds says that LL and iguana are Towny (along with others on the list).
Are you wanting a response from me?
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
You can respond if you want. But I was more interested in other people's opinions of your meta. As has already been mentioned this thread (regarding faust or joth, I forget which)... when someone knows their own meta well enough to comment on it, it does seem to make it NAI. But if you can tell me which of those options (or another option) it is, that can help, I guess.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
vote: mathdude
Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.I think the problem with answering this is that Jimmmmm has not been playing a lot recently, and when he did oftentimes he just ended up lurking and eventually getting exiled/replaced for that.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!It's because you are scum!
I don't know if you should. I definitely respond more positively to a third party asking for reasons for my vote than the person I'm voting for.Vote: MiX
the time has come.
Should I even bother asking for reasons?
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?At this point, it is a bit unclear which wagons you are referring to with this.
I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.I think the problem with answering this is that Jimmmmm has not been playing a lot recently, and when he did oftentimes he just ended up lurking and eventually getting exiled/replaced for that.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
vote: mathdude
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
He, not e
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
Didds is the third, clearly.Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
Is this the time you choose to abandon the Jimmmmm wagon?vote: mathdude
Are you trying to do a faust? I had to go back to page 4 (and I do 50 post pages) to find your last contributions, and math was not mentioned.
vote: gkrieg
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
I wasn't trying to call you a lurker, but i understand that it looks like I did.
Higher post count than me? Over my dead body! :P
Why did I vote you again?
Vote: EFHW
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
I wasn't trying to call you a lurker, but i understand that it looks like I did.
Higher post count than me? Over my dead body! :P
Why did I vote you again?
Vote: EFHW
Does this vote mean you are insisting I choose between faust and Jimmmmm, and can't look anywhere else? We have 48 hours left. Gkrieg has not gotten any attention and is being scummy. Could say the same about Lalight, in fact. I'm not going to vote faust today. I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
PPE: See this post
Does this vote mean you are insisting I choose between faust and Jimmmmm, and can't look anywhere else? We have 48 hours left. Gkrieg has not gotten any attention and is being scummy. Could say the same about Lalight, in fact. I'm not going to vote faust today. I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
PPE: See this post
LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/ebecause they weren't talked about much, then proceeded to vote for the most talked about within that group, and now is back to voting for the player who got the most votes this game and is not part of that group mentioned above - and that's after she did what he wanted and went from voting his supposed townread Jimmmmm to voting gkrieg.
No, I quoted the post I intended to. What was the reason for your vote, if I am wrong that it was my leaving the Jimmmmm wagon? I might have made an erroneous assumption.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
MiX has decided he want to look atLL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/ebecause they weren't talked about much, then proceeded to vote for the most talked about within that group, and now is back to voting for the player who got the most votes this game and is not part of that group mentioned above - and that's after she did what he wanted and went from voting his supposed townread Jimmmmm to voting gkrieg.
I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Swowl is not here at all.I thought if last game taught you anything, it would be to not give people who aren't around a free pass.
Why do you want to know?I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Were you actually surprised by this?
Swowl is not here at all.I thought if last game taught you anything, it would be to not give people who aren't around a free pass.Why do you want to know?I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Were you actually surprised by this?
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.
I am not following your argument here, MiX. Can you explain what you mean? I am a fab of more active Jimmmm.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
joth has definitely not been voting for (or, to my knowledge, scumreading) Jimmmmm since the start of the game. Indeed, he was part of the EFHW wagon before.People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
joth as well, it seems like.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
vote: mathdude
Are you trying to do a faust? I had to go back to page 4 (and I do 50 post pages) to find your last contributions, and math was not mentioned.
vote: gkrieg
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
How to scum:
- Buddy faust
- Vote partner
- Wait for partner to get in an argument with faust
- Say they're both town and unvote
- Open up the option to bus
- ???
- Let Jimmmmm be exiled D1
- Infinite towncredThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
He, not e
Neither. Not sure.
I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
I mean I did reread the game and post about it but no one seemed to respond much to the posts.
Wow, a lot going on today. I like it. It actually gives us something to look back at D2! (Granted, I was pretty poor at putting the pieces together last game, so there's nowhere to go but up).
I do like that Jimmmmm's trying to be active, but...I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
This seems pretty convincing. This is almost exactly what seemed to happen here!
Vote: Jimmmmm
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.
I feel like I'm seeing a lot more of EFHW D1 than is usual.
vote: mathdude
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
On top of that, he has:
-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.
You can brutally bus a partner D1 and ride the towncred to a victory. Been done with me before.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
-policy exile talk is just bad play, but both town and scum engage in bad play
-omgus is what it is, again, not scum or town tell to me
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.
This is absolutely terrible in my opinion. "Oh, feels like everyone thinks they are scum, let's exile and find out"
Feels like the same reason MiX exiled me D1 in wizard of Oz. And then exiled Galzria D2. It felt as though that line of thought is exactly what put town in such a hole they couldn't dig out D3
Let's exile the stuck in the mud people, not their target.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.
I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.
Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
Okay new plan. Trying to follow along isn't really working, so I'm going to try to get through a re-read of each player before deadline. We have about 5 days, so that means 3-4 re-reads per day. Starting with Dylan.
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)
I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".
That's actually enough for me to
Vote: Jimmmmmmm
Let's see what you got.
A vote is not gunning for me.
From my PoV:
- If you're town, you need an incentive to play D1. A vote on you means other town/scum can vote on you, creating a sizeable wagon. I think that would force you to pay attention to defend yourself, thus generate more pro-town content from you.
- If you're scum, you need to feel some pressure, even if it's just a vote now, others might join the wagon, forcing you to actually play D1, which, hopefully, makes you drop some scumslips or useful interactions that'll be useful for future days.
So it's strictly better for me to vote for you. Unless I misunderstood what gunning means (maybe it's just someone saying "YOU'RE SCUM YOU'RE SCUM HERE'S 50 REASONS WHY" but I hope not because I can't do that...), this seems to be foolproof, right?
That's more like it. :P
Jimm, I really think is scum.
First off, this is a level of activity I've never seen from Jimm, or least not in recent memory. Jimm is usually town, he usually is pleasant, psuedo-lurking. He's very active here, and this questioning strategy, I've never seen from him. I've been on him since the beginning because of our exchange over me being considered an IC.
Thoughts...
Abnormally high for Jimmmm.
...
It's abnormal because he's scum. Go with the simple explanation!
It's not just that town Jimm is a lurker, it's that his content is mild and unmemorable and inoffensive.
Here, you have been in the driver's seat, and you are raising questions like I've never seen from you before. Yo are different, AND you had the scummy reaction to the prospective Morgrim lynch.
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
This game I received Day 1 votes from 3 people and my Day 1 consisted of about 6 posts, ending with:Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
And starting Day 2 with:Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
After such a Day 1, I am definitely looking to be more active for the rest of the game, regardless of alignment.
I had more activity in the second half of the game, and the majority of that was concentrated on rereading people. My #554 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813512#msg813512) came before all but one of the Day 2 votes on me, and while it wasn't as long as the mentioned post, it was far longer and more substantial than anything before it. If there was a line between my inactivity and my activity that game, it was this post.
I voted for shraeye (who admittedly had just voted for me) due to his interactions with raerae, and he and I later had some back and forth which resulted in him voting for me again, but it didn't last for very long and soon enough I was re-reading someone else. Aside from the argument with shraeye, which started from responses to my giving reads, I don't see anywhere where I engaged with the pressure on me or those applying the pressure.
Sorry, behind again. I was mid-way through catching up when the site went down. At this stage the case on raerae seems a bit of a stretch to me but I'll try to look into it more tomorrow night.
because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
You are free to offer up a better example.I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.
BM32 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20724.0) is not an example of anything. It was a Bastard game in which I had what felt like a crippling post restriction and I was somewhat relieved when it was over for me.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
You are free to offer up a better example.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
What does scum want to do? They want to
A) Make sure the exile is a town player
B) Make sure that they don't appear to be the one who drove that exile when the player flipped town.
So any strategy that helps accomplish both those goals is not just bad play, but scummy play.
Everything MiX has done this game feels like he's performing town. The overinflated townread on me. The pivot toward "exile all lurkers" (without using that terminology). Nothing MiX has done this game is surprising because he's not actually concerned with finding scum.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Amazing.Vote: Jimmmmm
Vote: Jimmmmm
I have reached the critical point of faust that I only want to misexile them.
Faust, do you think this discussion will help catch a wolf?
I don't know about you, faust, but this post tells me you're both town.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
He waa obviously scum last game. There are key differences in town!faust and scum!faust that makes this strategy pro-town.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
joth says Didds is Towny, although that wavered a bit.
Didds says that LL and iguana are Towny (along with others on the list).
Thanks.
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
I give reasons and you basically say "oh doesn't matter, it all confirmation bias". Like, if that's the level of engagement I can expect then I might as well not give my reasons.Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
Why?
What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
Also, why would you want to act differently based on the opinion of one person you say is scum?I'm no longer voting you, if you noticed. I'm cured!
You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
What does scum want to do? They want to
A) Make sure the exile is a town player
B) Make sure that they don't appear to be the one who drove that exile when the player flipped town.
So any strategy that helps accomplish both those goals is not just bad play, but scummy play.
Trying to exile Town faust with minimal support based entirely on argumentation is a mountain that scum me just does not need.
They aren't lurking, either. They have been not available.I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
LaLight isn't a lurker this game. They're just flying under the radar. Same for everyone in that list (except Swowl and iguana are actually lurking).
They're just flying under the radar.
Yes I think you missed the substance. In my view the substance is exactly the two sentences you labeled "not substance". The other two are just examples of that behaviour. So talking about how I am so easy to read and he's figured my out and I'm town is like trying to convey that town!MiX swagger, but it's does not ring genuine. Trying to pivot in the face of two long-standing wagons has the same ring of something that scum!MiX thinks will look townie, but his heart isn't in it, and it shows.What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
Must have missed the substance of what you said then. I'll try again.
"Everything MiX has done this game feels like he's performing town."
This feels like a heading rather than substance (ie what will follow is how MiX is is performing town)".
"The overinflated townread on me."
I guess the substance is the suggestion that MiX has a stronger Townread on you than he ought to if he was Town. His posts early in the Day make this difficult for me to judge because they provide no context but seem confident. If you're talking about these posts it would great if you could indicate how they show an overinflated Townread, and how you know how seriously to take them. If you're talking about the post-argument posts suggesting we're both Town it'd be great if you said more about that since you didn't say much at the time other than the argument is NAI and MiX's response is a meme.
'The pivot toward "exile all lurkers" (without using that terminology).'
I didn't mean to harp on the "exile all lurkers" term if that's what you're talking about. Whether we're talking about lurkers or just those who have avoided the limelight, why is it scummy of MiX to decide that he wants to look at and/or exile someone from among them?
"Nothing MiX has done this game is surprising because he's not actually concerned with finding scum."
This feels like a conclusion rather than substance.
Yes I think you missed the substance. In my view the substance is exactly the two sentences you labeled "not substance". The other two are just examples of that behaviour. So talking about how I am so easy to read and he's figured my out and I'm town is like trying to convey that town!MiX swagger, but it's does not ring genuine. Trying to pivot in the face of two long-standing wagons has the same ring of something that scum!MiX thinks will look townie, but his heart isn't in it, and it shows.
Ultimately it's all gut feeling of MiX not being genuine, which is why it does not do any good to give these reasons. When I posted I just wanted to give people something to focus their attention on, but I can't explain to you how it is scummy if you don't see it for yourself.
What is your read on MiX anyway?
Answer me some of these questions, and then you can tell me I'm scum. Before that, I'm just town.You're scum.
Answer me some of these questions, and then you can tell me I'm scum. Before that, I'm just town.You're scum.
Ok, that was a really admirable defense Jimmmmm mounted. But… it’s the sort of admirable defense I tend to mount as scum. But I feel like an ass saying that because I get how it feels like confirmation bias from Jim’s seat.
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
iguanaiguana (1):
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Jimmmmm (4): jotheonah, faust, mathdude, EFHW
faust (2): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
Not Voting (1): Swowl
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Do you mean this if joth is scum you can't see him being exiled Today?
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Do you mean that if joth is scum you can't see him being exiled Today?
Jimmmm, can you go read EFHW and see what you think? I need some fresh eyes and you have time on your hands.
MiX, how are you feeling about Joth?
Jimmmm, can you go read EFHW and see what you think? I need some fresh eyes and you have time on your hands.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
vote: EFHW
vote: EFHW
faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
But you're wrong. Imagine you are trying to figure out if two arguers are being genuine in their postings of high emotion. It helps a lot to know what set them off. faust got mad when Jimmmmm unfairly accused him of going down a rabbit hole. Ok. Jimmmmm said he wasn't really angry, he was "leaning into the argument." I think that's scummy.
Jimmmmm could do all of this recently towny stuff as scum with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
But you're wrong. Imagine you are trying to figure out if two arguers are being genuine in their postings of high emotion. It helps a lot to know what set them off. faust got mad when Jimmmmm unfairly accused him of going down a rabbit hole. Ok. Jimmmmm said he wasn't really angry, he was "leaning into the argument." I think that's scummy.
Jimmmmm could do all of this recently towny stuff as scum with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
I feel like I should clarify some of this.
The joth vote was a tiny scum ping which was big enough to warrant a first vote. You could call it semi-RVS.
#158 was really less about scumhunting and more about trying to engage with the game and not knowing how to. The main thing I want out of a Day 1 is to keep up and be engaged in discussions. "[player] is [alignmenty] for [reasons]" is far more helpful to that end than simply "[player] is [alignment]". It's also worth noting that I was not talking about voting without reason, rather making statements with some degree of apparent certainty.
The vote on EFHW was a "reward" for WCD giving reasons for a read. I did not consider the state of wagons at the time.
PPE
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
So this is mostly to say I'm starting to become aware of my biases in trying to read people.
-snip
I believe I have fallen victim to this many times. When I start finding someone scummy, I often find it very hard to look at them objectively again. I just find more things that I think are scummy. And it gets worse if I start digging in and posting reasons for my scum read on them.
-snip
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
I didn't know either thing before I asked. I'm sorry there were more argument posts, but there weren't THAT many, and I know I gained some insight from it. What do you see as the problem?
faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.
Of course. Your arguments are not very strong though, because Jimmmmm is an experienced player and OMGUS and policy voting are newbie reactions. This makes me concerned that you are scum trying to misexile him.
I'm talking at cross-purposes with myself here, however. I actually do think Jimmmmm is scummy -- because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
vote: Jimmmmm
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.
What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.
What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)
None.
Can someone tell me why mathdude is scummy?
And the big argument on jimmmm is that he's active?
I don't know...I think if we're taking a shot in the dark someone like Swowl who is just busy elsewhere (which is always super good scum cover, if need be) seems like less of a loss.
This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.
Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.
yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
On top of that, he has:
-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.
I don’t think you’re a jerk, iguana!
Okay looks like gkrieg is here so I will read him next.
General impression: gkrieg's posts are like a wall I can't see through at all. So I am going to force myself to read him based on his reads.
So he's defending EFHW... scummy I guess?
But he's voting Mathdude... towny I guess?
And he's back right now and pushing Math hard.
This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.
Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.
Ok... this is almost a stupid reason to quote this post but what does EOL mean? I literally can't parse a word of this post because I don't know that acronym.
Ok and it looks like in his most recent post... he's actually scumreading EFHW? So that should be townie... except it doesn't make sense that he was defending EFHW from a wagon two days ago and now he's interrogating the people who are defending EFHW. So question #2 for gkrieg, what's up with that?
And yeah... gkrieg's reads seem townie but his posts are null. I don't think I have the capacity to read gkrieg until we see flips.
Math should be town here. His vote and push on me are very easy for scum!math to fake as he seems very comfortable doing it, but he seems genuine to me. Particularly this post:math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Which shows serious doubt over who to vote and how to proceed out of RVS.
It's not like I have evidence saying otherwise. But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
vote: EFHW
Oh, this is a scumslip from joth.
I wonder if scum!joth's still this obvious...
Let's just look at the wagons:iguanaiguana (1):
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Jimmmmm (4): jotheonah, faust, mathdude, EFHW
faust (2): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
Not Voting (1): Swowl
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
The people under the radar have either been on VLA or are actually townie (or both, see: Didds) so we can let them slide for today. faust is town so let's not do that, besides it's never correct to exile them D1. And I kinda agree with e that joth should get a D1 pass, but it's mostly because I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.
It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
This is the hedgy post.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
MiX is also here... I really don't want to read MiX.
So reading MiX sucks because I've never had to do it before. Last game I just knew he was town and I was like "haha he is town but he is a wrongo" when actually... well... enough about that.
Much has been made about MiX's super-early-townread of faust. But... isn't that what MiX is notorious for? I don't even play with him and I know that.Math should be town here. His vote and push on me are very easy for scum!math to fake as he seems very comfortable doing it, but he seems genuine to me. Particularly this post:math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Which shows serious doubt over who to vote and how to proceed out of RVS.
Pulling this up because it seems like an inconsistency. I just read MiX saying that he has literally no thoughts on Math. But earlier he had thoughts on Math enough to make a pretty decent sized post. I realize this was from WAY EARLIER in the game. But... does MiX just forget his own opinion on Math? Maybe if it was a fabricated opinion to start with that would be more likely.
Another inconsitency related to the same "no opinion on mathdude" post:It's not like I have evidence saying otherwise. But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
Earlier in the day... Mix wanted more wagons. When a wagon pops up on Math... he has no opinion? Why wouldn't someone who wants to have more wagons engage with a wagon when a new one shows up?
He also blankly scumreads e... who I think is town here and is also an easy misexile (and has been for years).The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
Wait.. so this is actually a serious inconsistency. He claims to have JUST REREAD all of EFHW/Jim/Math/Himself? but has no opinions on Math. What? MiX, I demand you give opinions on Math.
vote: EFHW
Oh, this is a scumslip from joth.
I wonder if scum!joth's still this obvious...
What the hell?
Ok, and then the final post saying no opinion on Math that I've already heavily scrutinized.
So I came into this reread positive that I would land flatly null of MiX but I'm actually slightly scumreading him. I can't say it's a strong read though because he's all over the place. And some of it is based on a scum!math partner narrative which I'll admit is terrible to do D1. So... when you remove the confirmation bias effect... slight scum on MiX with a lot of confusion and also please answer my questions.
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
Connect him to a lie detector and ask him straight up?
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.
It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
no one is a jerk. It's on me. I apologized, but I will again. Me not being around was not helpful.
Honestly, I should of subbed as it probably would of been a better decision for town to have someone here posting... but I just knew I would be back home and realllllyyyy wanted to be in a game. Sorry.
Mathdude:
-snip-
- #165 policy votes Jimmm at a time that creates a wagon of 3. Kind of some skum vibes on that one. Stuck bc Math is normally pretty meticulous and that feels lazy. But also, IDK if they would be lazy as skum. So just chalk it up as weird/skummy.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.... wil have to wait a few hours.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
I almost forgot ti actually comment on your Swowl post... at this point, less than 24 hours to deadline, there is no "best shot in the dark exile". We have viaible wagons. We pick the one we think is most likely scum, then get to look back at people D2 based on flip and where they stood in the argument. Exile a lurker gives us nothing.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Well I'm going to read it! I could use the confidence boost. I have a terrible memory so I could tell you not one thing about it.
Quote from: Iguana IguanaThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
How is this post related to e?
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Well I'm going to read it! I could use the confidence boost. I have a terrible memory so I could tell you not one thing about it.
Yeah everyone should read this game, where I do all the things that I am currently scumreading Jim for but somehow still survive to the end. But if you're using it for comps, you should note I was traitor there which is a very specific kind of scum to be.
Quote from: MiXQuote from: Iguana IguanaThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
How is this post related to e?
You are calling e, gkrieg and iguana lurkers. I singled out e because of what I said about him being a common D1 misexile and generally misunderstood player. gkrieg doesn't have that problem. If it helps, I was also super annoyed that you called iguana a lurker when he was too busy vaccuuming up massive piles of confetti late into the night after an EDM concert to respond.
Thank you for answering my other questions. The Joth scumslip thing is... entertaining. Calling that a scumslip though is patently ridiculous.
Ironically, this game from February that I had all but forgotten existed is M134 and we're currently playing ... M135. So idk what that says about my memory, or this community's interest in non-crazy mafia these days.
I mean no offense but pubby was supposed to die
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (2): mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?
Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?
Vote: joth
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
In other words, if we're both Town, scum aren't the ones who led us away from camping there? Potentially useful if true.
No one else finds it scummy that Jimmmmm was exaggerating the argument? Or do you not believe him when now he says he wasn't angry?
Town Jimmmmm never posts this much. The deliberateness of his posts since the argument points to careful crafting.
Well, catching up took longer than expected. Iguana spamming the thread this afternoon didn't help... that was a lot more to read (and a few more things to respond to) than I expected.
So my reread of a few people, mentioned here...Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.... wil have to wait a few hours.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.
Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Vote: joth
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.
Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!
He realizes he may be being just a little too helpful and less like himself, then starts backing off again.
Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.
You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
I just re-read EFHW's posts. As I was reading through, I kept thinking "that's scummy"... "so's that"... "I get why people called that out"... "I was called scummy for something like that".
But as I kept going, I began to realize that I agree with just about everything she has posted through the whole D1, and since I'm being called scummy for a few things, it's not surprising that people are calling her scummy too.
Early mild scum-read on Jimmmmm, an awareness and attempt to avoid getting locked into a 1 vs. 1 with Jimmmmm/faust, some concerns briefly raised with a few others, namely MiX and gkrieg, then cycling back and landing on Jimmmmm.
All in, everything EFHW has said makes sense to me. I give her almost full town-cred at this point.
I would join this wagon.After e votes for me an iguana joins, joth hypothetically wants to continue building a wagon on me. But he wants to avoid that (apparently) dreaded 3rd vote on someone, so he tries to lure someone else into it first.
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.If this were stated today, and we had very little discussion about MiX all D1, then it makes sense. But it was early D1. On its own, chalk it up to being faust. Now combined with his desire to vote MiX early without actually doing it, looks like buddying to me.
Still seeing the same as I was seeing before. If this is a new town!Jimmmmm and we need to note this going forward that he really gets into it instead of just lurking, I think that's an overall win. But to me, right now, it still sits as differents/scummy.
faust, what changed in the 16 hours between these posts?My read on you.Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
What changed your read on me?I'm not willing to give scum a primer on how to talk me out of scumreading them, sorry.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
ok, unvote
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Say more about that.
...
But I'd love to hear the "wagons are protown" argument.
...
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
I hate that FDS meta makes it towny to do a thing I consider to be the most scummy (fishing around for a “viable” wagon rather than properly scum hunting).
I actually believe it’s possible to productively scumhunt without forcing a bunch of claims and giving scum cover to pull off a town exile, which is what wagons for wagons’ sake usually accomplishes. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
EFHW, do you think that getting angry, emotional etc is a scum- or Town-trait?In you, I'd say town. Scum!you wouldn't get carried away by emotion, and I don't think you did in this game.
EFHW, do you think that getting angry, emotional etc is a scum- or Town-trait?In you, I'd say town. Scum!you wouldn't get carried away by emotion, and I don't think you did in this game.
...
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
...
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
This struck me as odd at the time; how can you PoE someone early Day 1? Then I realised it must have been PoE out of the wagons and yeah joth's attitude to wagons is super weird.
What can I say guys? I’m a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla.
What was your purpose in asking faust to say more about wagons?
This game I really wanted to just pick a read and stay on them for the sake of limiting scum’s ability to manipulate and maybe I should have stuck to my guns there. The switch to EFHW was a bit of a whim and looking back not really helpful in any way.I'm confused about this. Weren't you voting for EFHW before you ever started suspecting Jimmmmm?
Vote: Jimmmmm
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
I was thinking Jimmmmm and EFHW, but I see the EFHW wagon has sputtered out.
Anyway, let's get rid of Jimmmmm, he's being very scummy.
I would join this wagon.
I would join this wagon.
This was about mathdude. Were you considering having mathdude be your read for Today, or would joining that wagon be non-committal?
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
Having another look at EFHW. This jumped out at me:He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
ok, unvote
EFHW votes MiX in agreement with joth's assertion that policy exiles are scummy (or rather, policy votes or advocating for a policy exile). Then when MiX states that he now scumreads EFHW for that post and is no longer trying to policy exile her, EFHW immediately unvotes. Why would the fact that he's now saying it's also scummy change the scumminess of the original call for a policy exile?
I think I have some understanding of joth's game so far now, and it's making a bit more sense. I think the "stick to a read" plan explains the vibe I (and I gather Swowl) was getting, and it sounds likely to be a premeditated (ie non-alignment-dependent) plan. I think I'm leaning slight Town, but also that he warrants further investigation on a future Day.He explains in #555.
I would like to know why MiX said joth voting for EFHW was a scumslip - was that ever explained? Was it just because it contradicted his plan?
He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.
I actually do think Jimmmmm is scummy -- because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
He made it clear he was resisting the urge. Very different from advocating.He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.
So, you would only find a policy exile suggestion scummy if it's accompanied by a vote? Does the fact that it's not accompanied by vote indicate it's not serious?
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Can anyone do a vote count?
Can anyone do a vote count?
Vote Count 1.MiX
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (2): faust, MiX
Not Voting (0):
EoD is in 3:39 hours.
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!I'm pretty sure everyone's adivce is going to be "the person I'm voting for".
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Thank you for the vote count, MiX.
I’m straight up sheeping my town reads. I’m sorry I don’t have more time. I thought I was couch lounging today, not going to the lake. I might be able to check in later, but I’m just not sure.
Vote: Joth
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.
Vote: mathdude
Almost no activity 2 hours before deadline.
What a time to exile people.
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (2): faust, MiX
MiX, I never read that Joth game. What about it made him look similar to here?
So how much time do we have?
It has been a very busy last two days, sorry for the inactivity. Still like my math vote, don't like jimmmm wagon, would exile joth if necessary
I don't know! You linked one and I never had time to look at it!
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
I linked the game because joth was trying really hard to find a game where he was scum but was failing to do so. So I did. It has nothing to do with me comparing him to that game or anything.
The 3 of us can switch to math
Seriously?
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
But not for yesterday?
I mean, yeah. vote: math
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
But not for yesterday?
I mean, yeah. vote: math
Yeah. Even I make mistakes :P
It's not like me voting math would've changed anything, right?
Vote: Joth
why math?
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
Well sure but LaLight’s an IC.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which.
it's either really Towny or really scummy, and I can't put my finger on which.
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
Well sure but LaLight’s an IC.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
I didn’t understand this post at all.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
For one, deadline was 5am for me. I'm typically not showing up for that regardless of alignment. Others in more favourable timezones may have had other reasons they couldn't be around, and some have indicated so. It might be worth having a soft deadline in future.
So Swowl, you're basing your vote on joth, who you fairly recently said you didn't think was scum, on the assumption that the wagons weren't Town v Town and the unconfirmed alignments of those on the wagons?
No I'm talking about now. I get voting for the least bad alternative leading up to deadline, but an early Day 2 vote suggests your read on joth has changed. Given you now have ten other alternatives, I'm not finding your reasoning convincing, particularly in contrast to the long, thought-out post in which you concluded joth was Town.
I am actually a little confused of your fixation on this. Would you of asked me the same (yet different) question if I had opened with a Math vote?
And you now think that joth isn't playing too scummy to scum, and that he does do that as scum? Are you sure you haven't just talked yourself into scum?
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
fuck *exile* sorry.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
Don't actually do this because it would be a huge waste of time.
But when in the world can you think of game that is open like this in which there has been a no lynch day 1 and one of the wagons were not skum?
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Yeah, I was also 3 minutes late. I feel that having the deadline on a weekend didn't help things.
I don't think even if I had switched that an exile would have happened, so that's my only consolation.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
We're talking the difference between probable and possible. Discussions so far today have been focused on what's stated as "probable". It would be tough to crunch numbers on such a situation, since it's not perfectly random, independent events. We're talking interactions, teammates, time zones and online times, etc.
Probable is helpful D1, especially toward end of day. And if we don't sort stuff out through 5 or 6 days in D2, maybe we look back at "probable" EoD2 as well. But tunneling on it for 7 days is not helpful.
Let's look at what else is possible. Open up the conversation. I'll leave my vote for now - because it's possible he's scum. I don't know yet how probable, but that will likely sort itself out over the next couple days.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
Pretty much anyone? It's easy to justify a last-minute switch in the face of "we need an exile".Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
No, I mean who had the chance to exile them?
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
Don't actually do this because it would be a huge waste of time.
But when in the world can you think of game that is open like this in which there has been a no lynch day 1 and one of the wagons were not skum?
I would have thought the sample size here would be low enough that you couldn't really conclude anything.
To make sure I understand:
There are three scum in this game. You're arguing that what happened was (at least, but presumably exactly) one scum was a candidate, and the remaining two refused to bus them in a situation where if they were Town they would have helped get an exile through, and those two scum made the difference between an exile going through or not?
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
Player | Vote | Last post (time before deadline) | Wagons at time of last post | Ability to be around at deadline | Willingness to change vote |
MiX | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Unwilling to move to mathdude |
Swowl | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Did not move to mathdude, but later said he tried to |
EFHW | math | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Yes |
iguana | math | 30 minutes | math 4, joth 4, Jim 3 | No indication | Indicated willing to avoid nexile |
gkrieg | math | 45 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated likely inability | joth yes, Jim no |
e | math | 55 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | joth yes, Jim no |
faust | joth | 1 hour | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | No indication |
math | Jim | 1.5 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
Jim | math | 3 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated inability due to timezones | No indication |
joth | Jim | 3 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to RL stuff | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
Didds | joth | 3.5 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Unsure due to going to the lake | Yes |
Why is it relevant to include what joth said about his availability after the fact, but not for me or iguana?
Player | Vote | Last post (time before deadline) | Wagons at time of last post | Ability to change vote before deadline | Willingness to change vote |
MiX | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Unwilling to move to mathdude |
Swowl | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Did not move to mathdude, but later indicated he tried to but was late |
EFHW | math | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Yes |
iguana | math | 30 minutes | math 4, joth 4, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to being pulled away, and then was late | Indicated willing to avoid nexile |
gkrieg | math | 45 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated likely inability | joth yes, Jim no |
e | math | 55 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | joth yes, Jim no |
faust | joth | 1 hour | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated he tried to but was late | No indication |
math | Jim | 1.5 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
Jim | math | 3 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Inability due to timezones | No indication |
joth | Jim | 3 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to RL stuff | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
Didds | joth | 3.5 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Unsure due to going to the lake | Yes |
I'm not seeing too many opportunities to get an exile through. MiX and Swowl could have exiled math, so you could argue for a math/MiX/Swowl team.This analysis is alright, and I don't think the nexile was due to people maliciously skipping the deadline. However "General disorganisation" is something that scum definitely had an impact on. The leading wagon at the end was joth, and it started fairly late, and at the time a lot of people were hesitant to join for very lackluster reasons. Here is a timeline:
Aside from from those around at deadline, at the time of each person's last post, the biggest wagon was 4 (X - 3), and for most the biggest opposing wagon was 3 (X - 4). You could argue iguana should have switched to joth or faust or Didds should have switched to math, or that you don't believe people who say they weren't available, but given how late it was when anyone hit 4 or 5 votes, I would attribute the no exile to general disorganisation and failure to come to consensus, rather than 1-2 people not doing what they should have.
Vote: jothMe starting the joth wagon. T-21 hours.
MiX voices agreement but won't join me in voting. T-21 hours.Vote: joth
This follow logically.
I agree with you.
TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?Swowl investigates joth and does a weird "too scummy to be scum" defense. T-14.5 hours.
[...]
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
I guess I'll end by saying I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which. It's not one of those "in-the-middle, slightly leaning one way" deals. Except that it is, because I don't know which way I'm leaning. Not a viable wagon D1 at this point anyway here, so I'll check back again D2 if/when relevant.mathdude does not perceive joth to be a viable option and that's his main reason against voting there. T-14 hours.
I think joth's town. But this looks really weird. It probably means joth is scum, but I don't know, I like wall posts from joth and he's been making enough...MiX is also very ambivalent about joth, which seems in contrast to his earlier reaction to my vote. T-5.5 hours.
This isn't an easy person to read today I'd say.
MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours.What can I say guys? I’m a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla.
Vote: joth
A smart man once said, the only sure way to know someone's alignment...
I think I have some understanding of joth's game so far now, and it's making a bit more sense. I think the "stick to a read" plan explains the vibe I (and I gather Swowl) was getting, and it sounds likely to be a premeditated (ie non-alignment-dependent) plan. I think I'm leaning slight Town, but also that he warrants further investigation on a future Day.Jimmmmm joins the club of "uh I don't really know but let's look at this tomorrow". At least this point has an actual read in it. T-4 hours.
Vote: JothThis vote from Didds makes joth a semi-viable option. I feel like they can't be partners. T-3.5 hours.
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.Jimmmmm joins a wagon he expressed dislike for rather than the wagon on joth. T-3 hours.
Vote: mathdude
If we're going to exile someone, Jimmmmm seems the most helpful, and IMO, most likely to be scum.mathdude calls joth a "good vote" but prefers to stick to the dying Jimmmmm wagon. T-1.5 hours.
EFHW should also be good tp get future reads on people, but I think she's town so I won't vote there.
Joth would also be a good vote, or maybe MiX.
"MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours."
This is true in hindsight but not when I voted. T-5 hours is a reasonable time.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
This ignores that you seemed about ready to vote at T-21 hours, but delayed for 16 hours."MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours."
This is true in hindsight but not when I voted. T-5 hours is a reasonable time.
EBWOP
I responded to Swowl above before realizing there were 2 more pages of content.Earlier joth wagon was really quite early.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
I feel like the Joth wagon had different people on it earlier? Is that right? I’ll need to go grad all the VCs when I’m on a computer, but I’m curious about both math and Joths wagon earlier in the game. I’ll do that later today!
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Fine, vote: jothThe former is the last post iguana makes. Assembling a vote count does not seem like the action of a player who's about to disappear. iguana says this:
Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Now I know that is probably not a precise measurement, but EFHW's vote was more than 10 minutes before deadline.
Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
Why not? What I wrote above provides a reason for why scum!us would kill LaLight, and thus if LaLight dies we can be pushed with that reasoning.Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
But it's not beneficial for other scum teams to kill them to push us, right?
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
Is anyone assuming this?I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
That we shouldn't assume that a no-exile can only happen because of scum refusing to bus.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
Is anyone assuming this?I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
That we shouldn't assume that a no-exile can only happen because of scum refusing to bus.
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.
Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.A wise man would call this
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Thinly veiled OMGUS.
I responded to Swowl above before realizing there were 2 more pages of content.Earlier joth wagon was really quite early.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
I feel like the Joth wagon had different people on it earlier? Is that right? I’ll need to go grad all the VCs when I’m on a computer, but I’m curious about both math and Joths wagon earlier in the game. I’ll do that later today!
joth (4): iguana, Jimmmmm, MiX, faust
Early Jimmmmm wagon:
Jimmmmm (5): faust, MiX, mathdude, EFHW, joth
So compared to the end-of-day wagons, the people on Jimmmmm just stayed there, other than me and MiX who went back to joth.
I suppose iguana and Jimmmmm's later unwillingness to switch to joth is somewhat suspect. Looking back I especially found these back-to-back posts curious:Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, SwowlFine, vote: jothThe former is the last post iguana makes. Assembling a vote count does not seem like the action of a player who's about to disappear. iguana says this:Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Now I know that is probably not a precise measurement, but EFHW's vote was more than 10 minutes before deadline.
iguana: Can you confirm of deny that you saw EFHW's vote before D1 ended?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
faust's case makes a ton of sense, but it's faust and he literally always convinces me, even when he's scum.
Joth's case is not super convincing. It's basically, let's sheep Lalight. But I townread Joth for more of the day yesterday, and I still am not seeing it now.
This is all making me even more frustrated that I didn't manage to get my vote to Joth yesterday. If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
I am very much not sorted right now and suspicious of everyone who came in and voted right away before any discussion.
Well, Town also wants to make sure the other guy is exiled.
What a waste of time.
Jimmmmm, why can't we focus on the wagons first for the sole reason people scumread them?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
Also, have to say this.
I've never seen someone use a spreadsheet before. It made me think of of when Teproc dumped his entire QT into the thread and made no QT quoting a rule lol. Jim is playing next level here.
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
How is it that you make up your mind so quickly? Don't you care what other people say on day 2??
What a waste of time.
Jimmmmm, why can't we focus on the wagons first for the sole reason people scumread them?
I don't understand this post. Can you explain. What were you calling a waste of time?
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
They would have assumed that town would make sure an exile went through. Jimmmmm was the only one with an inconvenient time zone, I think. I'm not saying I think this is what happened. I'm saying it is just as likely as your theory.
Loath though I am to admit it, I am agreeing with Jimmmmm here. Your conclusion that one of them has to be scum is flimsy at best, and then you say there are only two choices, math and joth.
The no exile is also complicated by the fact that MiX says he was policy not-voting math because of all the early exiles math has had.
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
Ok, I keep tripping over this and it's not because of OMGUS. I don't know if it really checks out.
TR on WCD - sure, whatever. She gets those.
TR on MiX????
And then you say you voted Joth over Math because I was voting Math and you don't trust me.
First of all, why? You ignored me yesterday for one.
Also, IIRC I was already voting Math when you first called Math scummy, so why didn't my scumminess enter into your calculus at the the time you first read him?
Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
How is it that you make up your mind so quickly? Don't you care what other people say on day 2??
Night time is 2 days, I think it's reasonable to get a read like "I think he's scummy".
Yes I care about what people say, which is why I haven't explained why I scumread him.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
Ok, I keep tripping over this and it's not because of OMGUS. I don't know if it really checks out.
TR on WCD - sure, whatever. She gets those.
TR on MiX????
And then you say you voted Joth over Math because I was voting Math and you don't trust me.
First of all, why? You ignored me yesterday for one.
Also, IIRC I was already voting Math when you first called Math scummy, so why didn't my scumminess enter into your calculus at the the time you first read him?
1. I would rather not go into why I think this is Town!MiX (that is not a crumb, it is reads based). But yeah... town mix.
2. My skummy read on you, which I did make sure to put "moderately" in front of, is also based on more gut than anything else.
3. I don't get your IIRC comment. You were voting Math. I thought you were kinda acting skummy. That deterred me from voting Math.
If it helps, the town reads on MiX and WCD weighed far heavier into my decision then my skum reads in the other direction.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
Ok, well, yesterday you thought Math was town and I thought you were wrong. Today, I still think you are wrong. Or, maybe you are scum.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
Ok, well, yesterday you thought Math was town and I thought you were wrong. Today, I still think you are wrong. Or, maybe you are scum.
What have we learned about thinking each other's wrong?
That's right. Everyone is wrong. So what does that matter?
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Lol Didds. I don't even know what you're trying to do here.
I've mentioned you're town right? Didds' town.
If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
On the other hand, I'm alive right now which is nice.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
As someone whose never had to actually read MiX before, any advice? Because I'm having a hard time
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I think another point iguana, is that he’s not pushing for an exile. He’s voting for someone. I don’t think those are the same thing.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
Was our first game the SK game? That's a rough introduction to me, yeah.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I think another point iguana, is that he’s not pushing for an exile. He’s voting for someone. I don’t think those are the same thing.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
Was our first game the SK game? That's a rough introduction to me, yeah.
Yeah, deep space nine. I do t think I came around on you until after you said you felt bad for vengekilling me in whatever game that was!
*snip*
I guess if you are saying that the MiX/WCD votes had more to do with it, I can somewhat see your logic. But then why not say, I voted there because I was sheeping my TRs? Instead you make it about which wagon is sKummier.
Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
*snip*
I guess if you are saying that the MiX/WCD votes had more to do with it, I can somewhat see your logic. But then why not say, I voted there because I was sheeping my TRs? Instead you make it about which wagon is sKummier.
What? That is literally exactly the language I when first asked about all this.Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
Oh, good times. I guess I still owe Jimmmmm a good old fashioned exile for that game.
Oh, good times. I guess I still owe Jimmmmm a good old fashioned exile for that game.
What did I do??
I don't have words for this game, so I'm gonna choose to say "screw Jimmmmm for not being active D1 enough for me to vig him" and...and yeah.
Vote: faust
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Also, have to say this.
I've never seen someone use a spreadsheet before. It made me think of of when Teproc dumped his entire QT into the thread and made no QT quoting a rule lol. Jim is playing next level here.
Jimmmmm's...posts D2. Like, all of them. The way he was arguing about the wagon analysis felt like he was shooting down any meaningful discussion.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.There isn't a lot I can do about that, is there?
Or gkrieg.
No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
Apparently not quite encyclopedic. In DS9 (Redux) I was lurky Town and died Night 1.
DS9 was the game Didds mentioned, but I guess you were referring to "whatever game that was". My bad.
What are your reads at this point?
My sense of towncore currently tracks pretty strongly with level of engagement. I’m wary about that, but also would really like to know how gkrieg and e see the game.
Jimm, sorry for confusing you. I was talking about two different games. DS9 is the one where MiX was my not so great intro to MiX and Glooble’s Spark game was there one where he vengekilled me instead of scum!you and then you later won the game. It was a lesson in scum!luker!Jimmmm
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
This is a really strange post. For some reason math is offended that iguana joined the faust wagon, to the point that he unvotes. This outrage feels like an excuse to get off the wagon. He could be protecting partner faust, or more likely trying to frame him.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Why exactly?
This is a really strange post. For some reason math is offended that iguana joined the faust wagon, to the point that he unvotes. This outrage feels like an excuse to get off the wagon. He could be protecting partner faust, or more likely trying to frame him.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
vote: mathdude
PPE MiX saying the same thing.
Another strange thing is iguana not commenting on how bizarre the post is and simply defending himself.
PPE: MiX you are joking, right?
I wasn't joking. We really did comment on the same post at the same time. It's an odd post, so that's not so surprising, I think.Another strange thing is iguana not commenting on how bizarre the post is and simply defending himself.
PPE: MiX you are joking, right?
I presume the PPE was a joke then? As in, PPE the post that's after yours?
Oh my god. Lol. It's my bad, for some freaking reason my post appears after yours, with a timestamp that says it was written before your post.
I wasn't joking. We really did comment on the same post at the same time. It's an odd post, so that's not so surprising, I think.Another strange thing is iguana not commenting on how bizarre the post is and simply defending himself.
PPE: MiX you are joking, right?
I presume the PPE was a joke then? As in, PPE the post that's after yours?
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
How does that post frame me?This is a really strange post. For some reason math is offended that iguana joined the faust wagon, to the point that he unvotes. This outrage feels like an excuse to get off the wagon. He could be protecting partner faust, or more likely trying to frame him.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
vote: mathdude
PPE MiX saying the same thing.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Can someone look at this post and tell me with a straight face that math is town?
Two scenarios. One (partner) where he was bussing you for distance but wanted to get off before the wagon kept growing larger. Two (framing) where he wanted it to look like that. Because he seemed to want to get off that wagon in a hurry.How does that post frame me?This is a really strange post. For some reason math is offended that iguana joined the faust wagon, to the point that he unvotes. This outrage feels like an excuse to get off the wagon. He could be protecting partner faust, or more likely trying to frame him.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
vote: mathdude
PPE MiX saying the same thing.
Again, sorry I left that post hanging like that. It wasn't meant to be the of my thoughts. (Consider after my previous post, that I posted again saying "iguana, I think you're scum because ... [these reasons]", then I vote for him).
Hmm. Let it be known that was a townie post.
I don’t know, EFHW. I was scum with math in the dwarf bastard game, and he was really calculating in his posts. They weren’t the kind of contemplative train-of-thoughts posts we’re seeing here. So newbie!scum!math was deliberate with his words.
I’m not seeing that so far in this game.
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Two scenarios. One (partner) where he was bussing you for distance but wanted to get off before the wagon kept growing larger. Two (framing) where he wanted it to look like that. Because he seemed to want to get off that wagon in a hurry.Well, I'm town, so I'm ignoring the first scenario. What you are saying is... scum!mathdude is actively trying to look like scum in order to implicate me?
My thought was that given how close he came D1 to being exiled, he might be trying to make the most of it, assuming he would be the exile today. Could be far-fetched. How do you explain the post?Two scenarios. One (partner) where he was bussing you for distance but wanted to get off before the wagon kept growing larger. Two (framing) where he wanted it to look like that. Because he seemed to want to get off that wagon in a hurry.Well, I'm town, so I'm ignoring the first scenario. What you are saying is... scum!mathdude is actively trying to look like scum in order to implicate me?
Dunno, he got paranoid when a scumread of his joined his vote with flimsy reasoning? It happens to me all the time.My thought was that given how close he came D1 to being exiled, he might be trying to make the most of it, assuming he would be the exile today. Could be far-fetched. How do you explain the post?Two scenarios. One (partner) where he was bussing you for distance but wanted to get off before the wagon kept growing larger. Two (framing) where he wanted it to look like that. Because he seemed to want to get off that wagon in a hurry.Well, I'm town, so I'm ignoring the first scenario. What you are saying is... scum!mathdude is actively trying to look like scum in order to implicate me?
No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
When you can't find scum, look at lurkers. Faust is not one of them this game.
That would be preferable. Though it would be best if you went for joth.No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
When you can't find scum, look at lurkers. Faust is not one of them this game.
Well, I could also go for gkrieg. I believe I said that.
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.
That would be preferable. Though it would be best if you went for joth.No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
When you can't find scum, look at lurkers. Faust is not one of them this game.
Well, I could also go for gkrieg. I believe I said that.
iguana, what is it that you are finding towny about Joth?
iguana, what is it that you are finding towny about Joth?
I keep getting stuck on, he's voting his reads and pushing the game forward, and I looked at two of his scum games and did not see him do that at all. Like, he played super weak as scum. It wasn't obvious scum. It was just... I'm going to try to fade into the background scum. Like maybe D1 Oz scum Dylan was doing.
Now maybe that argument applies more to D1 than to D2 so far... but given that he says he's busy and a big case is coming... I'd like to hear it.
iguana, what is it that you are finding towny about Joth?
I keep getting stuck on, he's voting his reads and pushing the game forward, and I looked at two of his scum games and did not see him do that at all. Like, he played super weak as scum. It wasn't obvious scum. It was just... I'm going to try to fade into the background scum. Like maybe D1 Oz scum Dylan was doing.
Now maybe that argument applies more to D1 than to D2 so far... but given that he says he's busy and a big case is coming... I'd like to hear it.
Did you end up reading the scum game where he actually won?
iguana, what is it that you are finding towny about Joth?
I keep getting stuck on, he's voting his reads and pushing the game forward, and I looked at two of his scum games and did not see him do that at all. Like, he played super weak as scum. It wasn't obvious scum. It was just... I'm going to try to fade into the background scum. Like maybe D1 Oz scum Dylan was doing.
Now maybe that argument applies more to D1 than to D2 so far... but given that he says he's busy and a big case is coming... I'd like to hear it.
Did you end up reading the scum game where he actually won?
Blah, no! Remember? I asked you to summarize that EoD1 and you said it was irrelevant!
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
going to iso Joth and faust, will post thoughts then go from there.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
But also, honest question, do you know what spark notes is?
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
But also, honest question, do you know what spark notes is?
No. I presumed you meant notes about the spark game.
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Consider this from D1:If you can make a better case for yourself being town at that stage of the game then I'm eager to hear it.Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
This sounds nice and everything, but those three votes happened in his first 13 posts (joth-iguana-joth-jimmm votes), and that early one of those could very well have been a vote on a partner. So while it sounds super neat and all, it is a total deflection that a casual reader takes as a townie point for faust. I think it is scummy.
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
But also, honest question, do you know what spark notes is?
No. I presumed you meant notes about the spark game.
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
But also, honest question, do you know what spark notes is?
No. I presumed you meant notes about the spark game.
Ok, so that's my bad. Sparknotes is a really common tool that American public school kids use in literature classes. Basically, it summarizes the main points and themes and stuff of a book so that the kids don't have to actually read the book and can still pass a test about it.
So, when I said I was looking for the sparknotes version, I meant I was looking for a quick summary of why Joth looked scummy in the game you referenced because I didn't have time to read it and form my own opinion.
None of this is really relevant anymore but that's where our misunderstanding came from.
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.
Vote: mathdude
I realize I'm after those 10 minutes, and I'm guessing you voted me solely for self-preservation since I had the most votes. But you really should have looked at one of the people others have actually expressed a willingness to vote for. Someone whose some will actually give us reads on other people once we see a flip.
I honestly don't get the votes on me. There's nothing to defend against.
e voted me early, hasn't moved, hasn't participated much.
Iguana is the only vote I respect. He's looked at others, and decided to stick with me. It's wrong, but I respect it. And until his post just before this, it was like a tunnel, joth-like, not planning to go anywhere else (though I can no longer say that, since he's now said he's willing to move to get an exile).
gkrieg had a naked vote, I believe as well. And he hasn't said much else... regarding me or others. Just let the vote stick.
If we're going to exile someone, Jimmmmm seems the most helpful, and IMO, most likely to be scum.
EFHW should also be good tp get future reads on people, but I think she's town so I won't vote there.
Joth would also be a good vote, or maybe MiX.
Lol : (
I think what you meant then and meant now is that you don't actually have any conclusions about Joth's scum meta from the game you linked, but what you wanted was for me to read it and form MY conclusions and tell you about them.
I can only assume you are doing this out of some machiavellian ploy to divine my alignment. Nevertheless, I will do what you want in due time when I get a chance to sit down and look.
MiX, did you ever talk about why you opened up on faust? Don't answer, I am reading you next. I will find it if it is there.
MiX, did you ever talk about why you opened up [D2] onfaustmathdude? Don't answer, I am reading you next. I will find it if it is there.
MiX, did you ever talk about why you opened up [D2] onfaustmathdude? Don't answer, I am reading you next. I will find it if it is there.
sorry, I was thinking a name and typed another one
I'm sorry but the case for faust is not forthcoming because I have decided that faust is probably town for reasons. I will continue re-reading and come at you guys with a great, wonderful, game-changing case on someone else TBD.
Unvote
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
But also, honest question, do you know what spark notes is?
Still need to catch up. We’ll probably do it tomorrow.
Vote: faust
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Hmm. Let it be known that was a townie post.
Except that he didn't address the odd reaction to iguana, and focused on completeness instead, which no one had mentioned.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Interested in hearing more about your faust vote. Seems very....random? I mean, you vote faust then just completely ignore both before and after. By my count, you have 4 posts interacting with faust prior to your vote and a single post after your "when you can't find scum its faust" post. Did you even look at faust or just felt like you could get some traction on faust because no one will take the time to reread everything he posted and you can build a wagon of people who start getting antsy when faust stays alive too long (thinking of the whole "If Robz is alive D4 he is scum" line of thinking, which I know faust has experienced as well)?
I don't know, your vote just doesn't sit well with me.
vote: iguana
ISOing joth is annoying because of all the codenames messages in between. Clearly this is scummy!
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
I found the traitor role to be very freeing. My reads were fake, but my interactions were genuine, which made the game like 50% easier, if that makes sense.
ISOing joth is annoying because of all the codenames messages in between. Clearly this is scummy!
You ISO by reading a player's posting history? I ISO by ctrl Fing something unique in their profile or signature.
Found this while ISOing you looking for that Joth game.
I like this post. Just honest run-through on the wagon. 2 lurker votes, good vote from iguana, self-preservation from Jimmmmm. Feels like frustrated town (maybe frustrated isn't the right word, but something along those lines). My reread leaves me much townier on math.
I like this post. Just honest run-through on the wagon. 2 lurker votes, good vote from iguana, self-preservation from Jimmmmm. Feels like frustrated town (maybe frustrated isn't the right word, but something along those lines). My reread leaves me much townier on math.
35 minutes after this post you said you were happy with your math vote. What are you seeing now that you didn't see then?
I feel like iguana has done me a great service with this vote. It's like a repellant for other votes.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Interested in hearing more about your faust vote. Seems very....random? I mean, you vote faust then just completely ignore both before and after. By my count, you have 4 posts interacting with faust prior to your vote and a single post after your "when you can't find scum its faust" post. Did you even look at faust or just felt like you could get some traction on faust because no one will take the time to reread everything he posted and you can build a wagon of people who start getting antsy when faust stays alive too long (thinking of the whole "If Robz is alive D4 he is scum" line of thinking, which I know faust has experienced as well)?
I don't know, your vote just doesn't sit well with me.
vote: iguana
Just wait until I take my crack and do you like I did Galzria 8)In my experience, such grandiose announcements are followed by unvotes, so I'm not too worried.
iguana: Can you confirm of deny that you saw EFHW's vote before D1 ended?
Doubly good becuase now this is no longer OMGUS:
Vote: 2.71828.....
Looking at Faust again.
Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Iguana:
"1. When the Traitor PM went out, that player was informed who the Mafia was."
Your argument doesn't hold water.
Iguana:
"1. When the Traitor PM went out, that player was informed who the Mafia was."
Your argument doesn't hold water.
Blah, so why did he say that at the end?
Oh my god everyone, look at this OMGUS vote and how scummy it is!Doubly good becuase now this is no longer OMGUS:
Vote: 2.71828.....
Triply good since now you can paint me as even scummier since my vote will now be OMGUS.
Vote: faust
Oh my god everyone, look at this OMGUS vote and how scummy it is!Doubly good becuase now this is no longer OMGUS:
Vote: 2.71828.....
Triply good since now you can paint me as even scummier since my vote will now be OMGUS.
Vote: faust
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
So, I was reading this game, and I was like, holy crap, Joth is playing so good here. I knew he was scum, did not know his partners (except McMc, who flipped D1), did not know his role. Then... this:I found the traitor role to be very freeing. My reads were fake, but my interactions were genuine, which made the game like 50% easier, if that makes sense.
See, I think I get Joth. He has a really hard time with scum because he thrives on uncertainty. Knowing his partners takes the uncertainty out of the game and replaces it with duplicity, and I think he has a really hard time with that.
As a result, in the one example of a mafia game where he really played his heart out and fooled people, he was a traitor. The uncertainty was very much alive because he didn't know his partners.
So I guess if I am reading Joth correctly here, then that's because we are cut from the same cloth in that way. Both of us really struggle with being mafia. So as someone else who tends to lurk as scum and overplay as town, I guess I am seeing similar things from Joth's record and his current game. So he's actually one of the people I'm more confident in. The fact that he was traitor in that game really seals it.
I think Joth is town.
You seem to agree with this even though it has been proven factually wrong. Why?Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
So, I was reading this game, and I was like, holy crap, Joth is playing so good here. I knew he was scum, did not know his partners (except McMc, who flipped D1), did not know his role. Then... this:I found the traitor role to be very freeing. My reads were fake, but my interactions were genuine, which made the game like 50% easier, if that makes sense.
See, I think I get Joth. He has a really hard time with scum because he thrives on uncertainty. Knowing his partners takes the uncertainty out of the game and replaces it with duplicity, and I think he has a really hard time with that.
As a result, in the one example of a mafia game where he really played his heart out and fooled people, he was a traitor. The uncertainty was very much alive because he didn't know his partners.
So I guess if I am reading Joth correctly here, then that's because we are cut from the same cloth in that way. Both of us really struggle with being mafia. So as someone else who tends to lurk as scum and overplay as town, I guess I am seeing similar things from Joth's record and his current game. So he's actually one of the people I'm more confident in. The fact that he was traitor in that game really seals it.
I think Joth is town.
I feel very seen.
But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?
You seem to agree with this even though it has been proven factually wrong. Why?
Idk, I'd love to sit here and talk theory all day but idk that it's a very productive street.Well, you are free to do with your time as you wish. It is your choice to not interact with anything in the game that doesn't directly relate to you.
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?
Do you scumread gkrieg?
Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?
Why are you voting gkrieg?
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?
Do you scumread gkrieg?
Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?
Why are you voting gkrieg?
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
For all the discussion of us not being RVS, the weekend start we've had feels very RVSy even for a normal game.gets townpoints. This is some of the most useful stuff I think he's posted, and it was very early D1.
Mathdude's comments hereYou don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
remind me a bit of when he OMGUSed me in the last game here. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20798.msg875111#msg875111)
It has that same attitude of scumreading someone for reading the game differently than you. He was town there, so for right now I'm reading it as Math is town again and would want to blend in more if he was scum.
Joth and Jimmm are my biggest unknowns this game.
I vaguely remember Jim as someone who played occasionally, didn't post much, but had a reputation for being good at finding the scums with short, decisive posts. I don't remember if I've ever read a scum Jim game though...
Joth I've seen as mod and I did some reading into his old games already, but I don't know his scum meta either.
@Joth, could you point me in the direction of a scum game you are proud of?
This looks like an easy way to avoid committing to doing much useful stuff D1 - something scum would want to do, as long as it looks like an exile will actually happen.Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.
For me personally finding partner interactions is too hard without a single flip and it's a sort of folly to try. That sort of things lends itself to confirmation bias easily.
Maybe it's a poor choice of words, but this case is definitely not "persuasive". This is a good excuse to jump on a wagon (e provided a flimsy reason to vote me, why not jump on and see what happens?). But it's not persuasive, by any means. Scum!iguana makes it seem like there's more of a case on me than there really is.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdude
yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.
Sure. So I will read Joth now.
Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
-snip-
-snip-In his re-read on MiX, he's almost fully focused on how MiX reads me, and switches his read on me, then ignores commenting on a read on me. This fixation on how things relate to me is not fully founded at this point (I had not yet become a real viable wagon until almost the end of D1... even though I had a few votes on me earlier, there wasn't much to them).
(long post of his re-read on MiX)
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Last thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust.
I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.
This quote and his previous post look like just trying to start something, where nothing needed to be started. Scum trying to build up trouble start of D2 maybe?Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.
It's not that no one could TR you but I do want to know where he's coming from on said town read
Vote: faust
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
It doesn't have to be both! Trust me, I can be town and also be super detrimental. That is most likely the case here.
At any rate, I wasn't sheeping you, and actually I had no idea you were even voting faust.
I really honestly believe that you can't write a good case against faust. He has played in near every game I've played in since 2015, and I don't think I've ever been able to read him accurately. Mostly I find him to be towny even when he is scum. Last game I trusted that read and lost.
This game, I am not feeling the case against Jim at all. EFHW seemed scummy at first but has largely come back from that. I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town. I'm least sure about Joth, but a large part of that is just PoE from my other townreads.
So those are the major wagons that we've had, and I don't feel great about any of them. So it begs the question, if all of those people are town (possible), who is scum? Probably someone who is playing quite well. Hence, the vote on faust, who I think always plays well as scum.
You can call that grasping at straws if you want. But I have certainly put thought into it.
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.
I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
Why are lurkers more likely to be town than scum?
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
Why are lurkers more likely to be town than scum?
Because scum has a smaller team and therefore more responsibility for the team's goals and more incentive to participate in order to advance them.
When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.
I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?
You uh. You were uh. You were scum that game. And faust was exiled as the Tracker. And ash died at night. That's enough proof of how wrong you are.
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.
Vote: math
Mmmh. It's right there in my file cabinet of mafia quotes. You nailed it.When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.
I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?
You uh. You were uh. You were scum that game. And faust was exiled as the Tracker. And ash died at night. That's enough proof of how wrong you are.
Maybe you and faust saw that comment and thought "hey that's not a bad idea" and filed it away.
I like your wall post and I think it deserves consideration, but I wish it weren't a case on the towniest person in the game.
Speaking of 1v1, I see faust is done with his deal with Jimmmmm D1, but is now trying to start one with e. Discuss?I think you're behind. I'm not voting e anymore.
(PPE: 2)
So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?
Maybe the lesson is that it's not my interaction with partners that gives me away when I'm scum, but my partners' interactions with me.
Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.
Vote: math
Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.
Vote: math
I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.
I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.
I'm surprised. You yourself noted that his narrative was problematic. I always scumread any post that seems to be distorting what really happened. It can be a sign of trying to mislead town or a sign of having trouble posting as scum. I can't dismiss everything in that post as "just town!math being town!math." If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.
So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?
Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.
gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.
Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.
So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?
Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.
gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.
Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.
I obv cannot argue day 1 lurk.
But what did I do earlier this day that was skummy to you exactly?
Pretty sure all of my contribution was the whole math/Joth bit.
snip
snip
See the post above.
Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.
snip
See the post above.
Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.
Still haven’t reread. I have just been reading things while I have time. Nothing has convinced me that mathdude is not scum yet.
Vote: mathdude
@MiX stop asking Awaclus questions, and now I have to go.
So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?
Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.
gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.
Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.
I obv cannot argue day 1 lurk.
But what did I do earlier this day that was skummy to you exactly?
Pretty sure all of my contribution was the whole math/Joth bit.
How about lurking D2?
snip
See the post above.
Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Don't wait up. I'm not finishing until I get some sleep
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
This doesn't really seem like a scum read on me.
Maybe quote the post you mean? I looked back and that was from today right around when you voted for me.
Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Don't wait up. I'm not finishing until I get some sleep
Still holding my breath.
Maybe quote the post you mean? I looked back and that was from today right around when you voted for me.
Sorry. Mobile.
But I was literally just saying “I’m voting for you today also, that is me saying I have a skum read”
I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.
I'm surprised. You yourself noted that his narrative was problematic. I always scumread any post that seems to be distorting what really happened. It can be a sign of trying to mislead town or a sign of having trouble posting as scum. I can't dismiss everything in that post as "just town!math being town!math." If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.
Can you show me where you see that he is distorting what really happened? Also, how many games have you played with Math before?
I can post the distortions if people want me to. I didn't want to add a wall post unnecessarily.
Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Don't wait up. I'm not finishing until I get some sleep
Still holding my breath.
Reading faust was most enjoyable. He was fun, charming, and full of wonderful anecdotes that inspire the rest of us to play the game of mafia better.
I also think there is a decent chance that he is scum.
Consider this from D1:Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
This sounds nice and everything, but those three votes happened in his first 13 posts (joth-iguana-joth-jimmm votes), and that early one of those could very well have been a vote on a partner. So while it sounds super neat and all, it is a total deflection that a casual reader takes as a townie point for faust. I think it is scummy.
I could quote more, but he has been quite the prolific poster, so I will settle for this one example. I am going to go back and reevaluate mathdude, lets see where that takes me.
I'm going VLA for the next two days starting basically now. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.msg877633#msg877633)
I'm probably not going to post at all. I'm celebrating my wife's birthday on a weekend trip and she's not going to be keen on me checking mafia at that time.
I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.I don't like the excuse for not wanting to vote MiX. Then, I get that it's D1 and we don't know much, but "saltiness" doesn't seem like a good reason to jump on a vote.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
This was clearly an RVS vote.This looks like an easy way to avoid committing to doing much useful stuff D1 - something scum would want to do, as long as it looks like an exile will actually happen.For me personally finding partner interactions is too hard without a single flip and it's a sort of folly to try. That sort of things lends itself to confirmation bias easily.Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.
This is conventional mafia wisdom not an excuse to not do anything. iguana has been one of the most active players, so I don't see how he can be accused of trying not to do anything useful.
Now we get into some more of the good stuff!Maybe it's a poor choice of words, but this case is definitely not "persuasive". This is a good excuse to jump on a wagon (e provided a flimsy reason to vote me, why not jump on and see what happens?). But it's not persuasive, by any means. Scum!iguana makes it seem like there's more of a case on me than there really is.Third vote is scumI'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: math
Vote: Mathdude
It's possible math missed iguana's humor/sarcasm here.The "Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum" is something I'll come back to later with iguana, and part of why I think he's scum.yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.Sure. So I will read Joth now.
Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
-snip-
Otherwise, in that post, he's all over the map, commenting about joth, but not really saying anything useful for us to use for or against in the future.
Here he snips out part of the post and then says there was nothing useful in it. This is what was in the snip: "Specifically (after reading) what's different between Joth and the scum game I read is that Joth in the scum game had a really hard time making cases and would literally say like "IDK... I gues we could exile Scolapasta???" in response to questions about who he scumread and in this game he does nothing but post cases and reasons for scumreading people. Oh yeah... and Joth was one of the others who was starting to convince me that Jim could be scum. This was a decent case. Well, I don't know about the MiX-partner-theory part. (I'm a little leery of partner theories RN because they screwed me last time.) But the other parts were convincing." Helpful content.Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
This was an OMGUS reply.
It's not OMGUS when three separate reasons are provided.Last thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust. I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.
That's a lot of people he doesn't like the look of and doesn't really trust. It's one thing to not be townreading a lot of people D1. But this looks like throwing shade on a lot of people, and seeing what will stick.
There's no indication that he is trying to throw shade to see what sticks. And distrust is healthy in mafia!
On to D2...This quote and his previous post look like just trying to start something, where nothing needed to be started. Scum trying to build up trouble start of D2 maybe?Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.It's not that no one could TR you but I do want to know where he's coming from on said town read
How is this trying to start trouble?Vote: faustAnd I believe at this point, I was the only one voting faust, and he jumps on to maybe start a wagon. This is inconsistent with his earlier play this game.
iguana's vote on faust came 130 posts after math's. "Jumping on" has a negative connotation here, but doesn't apply.
But this isn't an argument, it's a story. Literally a "what if ..."I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.
I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.
This is a reasonable approximation of my argument against faust.
-snip-.
Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Don't wait up. I'm not finishing until I get some sleep
Still holding my breath.
Ok, so, this post is going to be kind of a doozy but here goes.
I believe you voted me / are still scum reading because you believe that I fabricated a vote on faust as a sort of scum tactic to see if anyone else was interested in voting him / to get rid of him / whatever.
But the real reason I voted faust is much more complicated than that and is related to like every game of mafia I've ever played.
I used to think it was faust and gkrieg and Galzria and Ashersky and Lalight and Robz that were all really really good and he was up there with them, but I now think he's the best, hands down.
so, read joth, faust, math, MiX, LL, and iguana. From that group I would say:
more scummy: faust, iguana
more towny: joth, math, MiX
I am suspicious of my fellow lurkers, especially because of the no exile on D1, but I like my vote where it is at for now. Remind me to read EFHW, Swowl, Didds, and gkrieg later. I don't need to read Jimmmmm, I am confident in my D1 read that he is town.
If this turns out to be town!math, then I will have more insight into how to read him, I think.
I think I'm going to have to go with my scumread and if I'm wrong I'll make adjustments in the future.
If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.
I thought a bit more about the no-exile. Generally, Town wants to exile unless there's a reason not to. So how does scum feel about it if the main wagons are TvT? Would they rather make sure one of them goes through, or are they happier with the no-exile? With a no-exile, they get a free kill (offset by any Cops Town might have), but risk coming out worse if Day 2 results in a successful exile. But if those same TvT wagons come up again, they're laughing.The way I see it, scum wants to find PRs. Bringing townies close to exile results in claims, so scum wants that. It's less important that the exile actually goes through, but they'd at least want to push town to X-1.
Do you conclude anything about this game from that?I don't think we have enough information to make meaningful conclusions here. We don't know the setup, we don't know if it was TvT, I think we shouldn't base our reads upon that amount of uncertainty.
We don't know the setup, we don't know if it was TvT, I think we shouldn't base our reads upon that amount of uncertainty.
Alright then, what is the rest of the picture?We don't know the setup, we don't know if it was TvT, I think we shouldn't base our reads upon that amount of uncertainty.
I agree, and I'm not. I think I base my reads on other reads less than a lot of people here. But of course if joth (and to a lesser extent math) is scum, then Swowl is less likely to be and vice-versa, so it's part of the picture when looking at Swowl.
Everything he's said and any arguments made for or against him.I'm sorry, weren't you the guy who complained about my not giving reasons? Would you have been satisfied if I said my reasons were "everything"?
Didds, what happened to your scumread on EFHW?
Same with Joth.
Same with Joth.
Are you saying I'm cagey and close to the vest? Because that is the opposite of what I'm going for. I'm an open book. AMA.
Same with Joth.
Are you saying I'm cagey and close to the vest? Because that is the opposite of what I'm going for. I'm an open book. AMA.
Same with Joth.
Are you saying I'm cagey and close to the vest? Because that is the opposite of what I'm going for. I'm an open book. AMA.
No...that is not what Didds said.
Same with Joth.
Are you saying I'm cagey and close to the vest? Because that is the opposite of what I'm going for. I'm an open book. AMA.
No...that is not what Didds said.
Didds said a bunch of things about EFHW and then "Same with Joth" at the end and I wasn't sure how much of the preceding post that post-script applied to.
Maybe quote the post you mean? I looked back and that was from today right around when you voted for me.
Sorry. Mobile.
But I was literally just saying “I’m voting for you today also, that is me saying I have a skum read”
It seems to me that you went from townreading me, to voting for me without a strong scumread, to strongly scumreading me and the only thing that changed was what was convenient for you.
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
Bold added for emphasis. I know my experience here is fairly limited. But I have noticed that through my games here, the dead have an above average probability of having correct reads, yet we almost never do anything about it.
I doubt we're lucky enough that LL picked 2 on D1. But between the two, I still feel MiX is town-ish, so to start the day, I'll sheep LL's faust suspicion for now.
Vote: faust
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
I think I've answered this.
I think the TVT wagon thing was a nighttime scum plan to shape the agenda for the day (I think Jim said as much above).
I think you picked me over math because you forgot about your previous fake read.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
@Swowl, why were you being stupid thinking EFHW was scum D1?
Also, this post seems very conscious about how Swowl will look, which is scummy.
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
I think I've answered this.
I think the TVT wagon thing was a nighttime scum plan to shape the agenda for the day (I think Jim said as much above).
I think you picked me over math because you forgot about your previous fake read.
Okie dokie well pretty much hits a 10 on the ridiculous scale. If there was a plan, then "my entire team" would of had to miss it, not just me.
I don't know what to make of you when you tunnel like this.
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
Don't actually do this because it would be a huge waste of time.
But when in the world can you think of game that is open like this in which there has been a no lynch day 1 and one of the wagons were not skum?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
MiX voted for: LaLight, joth, gkrieg, joth, Jim, joth, iguana, EFHW, joth
QuoteMiX voted for: LaLight, joth, gkrieg, joth, Jim, joth, iguana, EFHW, joth
lol
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Does Didds usually try to buddy people as scum? (I know she does it as town, but wondering if it is stronger as scum).
QuoteMiX voted for: LaLight, joth, gkrieg, joth, Jim, joth, iguana, EFHW, joth
lol
QuoteMiX voted for: LaLight, joth, gkrieg, joth, Jim, joth, iguana, EFHW, joth
lol
I kept saying that because Didds and iguana had both said this is town!math.If this turns out to be town!math, then I will have more insight into how to read him, I think.I think I'm going to have to go with my scumread and if I'm wrong I'll make adjustments in the future.If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.
I don't like this at all from EFHW; it's like she's pre-empting a misexile. Maybe someone can tell me if this is just a thing she says all the time, but the fact that she said it three times in a relatively short space of time indicates she really wanted to emphasise it and take pressure off of herself for having a read.
No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
I remember agreeing with them but not seeing how they make math more scummy. I also remember being confirmation biased about it.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Does Didds usually try to buddy people as scum? (I know she does it as town, but wondering if it is stronger as scum).
I think so, yeah.QuoteMiX voted for: LaLight, joth, gkrieg, joth, Jim, joth, iguana, EFHW, joth
lol
I'm pleasantly surprised you got one with portuguese subtitles.
So, are you calling yourself spam?
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
All I know is that you concluded joth wasn't scum and math was middle leaning scummy, then voted for joth both Days for no given reason besides sheeping your Town reads. Have you noticed that both Didds and MiX have since more or less reversed their preference to math over joth? Does that change your preference, or do you have a read of your own?
One reason for picking joth over math could be thinking that the math wagon had enough steam of its own, so voting joth could be the best way to maintain both wagons. I'm not sure I agree that you simply forgot about your prior joth post, but there are any number of reasons you might decide to prefer joth.
What more information are you asking for that I haven't provided?
I don't get why you're frustrated. I've had enough lurky Day 1s to know that it catches up with you sooner or later. But you've only had 2 people putting any real amount of pressure on you. If you legitimately think joth is scum, then make some sort of case that goes beyond "one of them has to be scum and my Townreads voted joth".
I don't get why you're frustrated. I've had enough lurky Day 1s to know that it catches up with you sooner or later. But you've only had 2 people putting any real amount of pressure on you. If you legitimately think joth is scum, then make some sort of case that goes beyond "one of them has to be scum and my Townreads voted joth".
I am not frustrated because of the "pressure". There is the guy I think is skum, and then you. I am frustrated because I was out Day 1 and am having trouble getting back in... and because I cannot seem to get anyone to see what it is I am seeing.
It is nearly midnight here, and I doubt it will do anything. But I will summarize my joth reasons when I get back from breakfast tomorrow.
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math,
I kept saying that because Didds and iguana had both said this is town!math.If this turns out to be town!math, then I will have more insight into how to read him, I think.I think I'm going to have to go with my scumread and if I'm wrong I'll make adjustments in the future.If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.
I don't like this at all from EFHW; it's like she's pre-empting a misexile. Maybe someone can tell me if this is just a thing she says all the time, but the fact that she said it three times in a relatively short space of time indicates she really wanted to emphasise it and take pressure off of herself for having a read.
No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
But both Joth and math ended the day voting for Jim, not one another. Why?!?
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math,
On this small point we agree. Does the fact that I am so dead against the gkrieg exile not affect your read on me at all?
I feel a bit talked out... let's look at the vote count.
Vote Count 2.faust
mathdude (3): EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX
jotheonah (1): Swowl,
faust (1): 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): mathdude,
gkrieg13 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Swowl (2): jotheonah, Jimmmmm
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 will end September 27, 2021, 03:00:00 pm.
So deadline is in less than 2 days. We should make sure to actually get an exile. The people who are not on a proper wagon should either move or make a case to convince people. The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
.
The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
gkrieg isn't posting a lot, but many of his posts contain content in which he takes stances and expresses opinions. I feel like math is going for the easy lurker exile.
My opinion on Swowl has swung townier. But one question, the theory he put forth was a T v. S scenario. But since then everyone including him has been calling it T v. T.
I do agree, it's time to consolidate... we're less than 2 days to deadline. I don't think it has to be me vs gkrieg. But even so, I just reread his D2 posts... all 10 of them. One on the 21st, one on the 22nd, none on the 23rd, 8 on the 24th, none today yet. Here is what he said:
1. Need to catch up
2. Still haven't reread. I'm keeping my vote on math. Votes me.
3. One joth post looks townie, but he could be scum covering his partner if math flips scum
4. Now I'm just thinking what if math and joth are both scum?
5. Swowl looks scummy
6. Swowl is overreacting to Jim's questions
7. Iguana seems townie
8. Agree with faust (quoted post)
9. Disagree with joth - he is shutting down wagon analysis
10.Didds buddies people as town. Does she as scum?
I would say I saved you all some time from rereading gkrieg... but to be honest, reading his posts would be just about as fast as reading this summary. He has literally contributed nothing. He has said a few 1-liners ... the type scum says to sound townie.
He has probably included a partner in his "townie" or "scummy" calls... just not sure which. He's just leaving them there to try to mess with us if we do follow through with voting him.
So whoever said gkrieg is just a lazy vote... I disagree. It's a calculated vote who looks like scum trying to sneak by without saying too much.
So you're basically saying this day should be math vs gkrieg?Anyone is free to argue their case. But whoever is just leaving their vote on a non-viable player without actively trying to convince people is trying to steer us towards another nexile.
1. gkrieg has completely ignored the wagon on him..
The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
Give me two good reasons the gkrieg wagon is better than the Swowl wagon.
1. How is that scummy? He probably hasn't even seen it yet.1. gkrieg has completely ignored the wagon on him..
The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
Give me two good reasons the gkrieg wagon is better than the Swowl wagon.
2. Swowl is obviously town.
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
Actually same question to Jim and the whole TVT wagon thing. What’s your theory for me isolating a TVT wagon today like you say, but also switching from Math to Joth?
I think I've answered this.
I think the TVT wagon thing was a nighttime scum plan to shape the agenda for the day (I think Jim said as much above).
I think you picked me over math because you forgot about your previous fake read.
No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
I remember agreeing with them but not seeing how they make math more scummy. I also remember being confirmation biased about it.
I looked it over and I remembered that I thought you brought up one thing that was truly scummy and worth mentioning, but it's late and I'm not going to look for that right now.
So if anyone wants to vote math, you can read the EFHW post.
Here's joth making the same mistake. TvT came up a lot previously, but Jimmmmm and faust spoke hypothetically rather than using it to describe the theory. Just wondering if Swowl or joth might have scumslipped.
Read it again. It could well be nothing, but it's not what you just said.
Here's joth making the same mistake. TvT came up a lot previously, but Jimmmmm and faust spoke hypothetically rather than using it to describe the theory. Just wondering if Swowl or joth might have scumslipped.
I think this is Swowl saying "Why do you think it was TvT?", and joth replying "This is why I think it was TvT." It's discussing the idea that Swowl is scum who pushed for having the same wagons because they were TvT.
No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
I remember agreeing with them but not seeing how they make math more scummy. I also remember being confirmation biased about it.
I looked it over and I remembered that I thought you brought up one thing that was truly scummy and worth mentioning, but it's late and I'm not going to look for that right now.
So if anyone wants to vote math, you can read the EFHW post.
Have you remembered what was scummy to you?
You are much quieter than usual.
Read it again. It could well be nothing, but it's not what you just said.
Read it again. It could well be nothing, but it's not what you just said.
One of us is misunderstanding. To me it seems like Swowl is asking me and joth why he as scum would push for the same wagons as Yesterday, which were TvT in this scenario (and also why he switched from math to joth), and joth is talking about the scum plan of pushing those same wagons.
If I had to take a guess, exactly one scum is active. Everyone else active is town. This is the vibe I'm getting.
If I had to take a guess, exactly one scum is active. Everyone else active is town. This is the vibe I'm getting.He's not, but whatever.
The active scum is joth. Probably. I don't know.Read it again. It could well be nothing, but it's not what you just said.
One of us is misunderstanding. To me it seems like Swowl is asking me and joth why he as scum would push for the same wagons as Yesterday, which were TvT in this scenario (and also why he switched from math to joth), and joth is talking about the scum plan of pushing those same wagons.
I think Jimmmmm is right on this one.
Well math has been wagoned. Why are you so reluctant to share your opinion?No one commented on the distortions I found. The snipping and then mischaracterizing was the most serious to me.
I remember agreeing with them but not seeing how they make math more scummy. I also remember being confirmation biased about it.
I looked it over and I remembered that I thought you brought up one thing that was truly scummy and worth mentioning, but it's late and I'm not going to look for that right now.
So if anyone wants to vote math, you can read the EFHW post.
Have you remembered what was scummy to you?
You are much quieter than usual.
No, I forgot I even posted that. I've been busy having fun with other stuff.
I don't know who scum is, and I can't see us exiling scum that wasn't wagoned already. So I'm just chilling in a wagon waiting for the day to end.
Unsurprisingly, I think joth makes some good points about Swowl, but I was like, "Does scum actually do that?" That is, come out as Swowl did Day 2, without acknowledgement of his prior post about joth.
I thought a bit more about the no-exile. Generally, Town wants to exile unless there's a reason not to. So how does scum feel about it if the main wagons are TvT? Would they rather make sure one of them goes through, or are they happier with the no-exile? With a no-exile, they get a free kill (offset by any Cops Town might have), but risk coming out worse if Day 2 results in a successful exile. But if those same TvT wagons come up again, they're laughing.
Then I realised, this is exactly what Swowl was pushing. And increasing their activity by advocating a theory-based exile makes sense for a lurky scum who knows they need to start contributing more but isn't sure what reads they can justify.
I'm not suggesting scum purposefully allowed a no-exile; I don't see the evidence for that. But if it was TvT, which I'm inclined to think is likely, scum definitely want people to assume it wasn't.
Vote: Swowl
I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.
I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.
I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.
As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.
I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.
I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.
I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.
As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.
The top of this post is a contradiction, no? Swowl is not active
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
It doesn't have to be both! Trust me, I can be town and also be super detrimental. That is most likely the case here.
At any rate, I wasn't sheeping you, and actually I had no idea you were even voting faust.
I really honestly believe that you can't write a good case against faust. He has played in near every game I've played in since 2015, and I don't think I've ever been able to read him accurately. Mostly I find him to be towny even when he is scum. Last game I trusted that read and lost.
This game, I am not feeling the case against Jim at all. EFHW seemed scummy at first but has largely come back from that. I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town. I'm least sure about Joth, but a large part of that is just PoE from my other townreads.
So those are the major wagons that we've had, and I don't feel great about any of them. So it begs the question, if all of those people are town (possible), who is scum? Probably someone who is playing quite well. Hence, the vote on faust, who I think always plays well as scum.
You can call that grasping at straws if you want. But I have certainly put thought into it.
No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
When you can't find scum, look at lurkers. Faust is not one of them this game.
My sense of towncore currently tracks pretty strongly with level of engagement. I’m wary about that, but also would really like to know how gkrieg and e see the game.
EFHW, do you have a scum to chum list?
Jimm, sorry for confusing you. I was talking about two different games. DS9 is the one where MiX was my not so great intro to MiX and Glooble’s Spark game was there one where he vengekilled me instead of scum!you and then you later won the game. It was a lesson in scum!luker!Jimmmm
This is a really strange post. For some reason math is offended that iguana joined the faust wagon, to the point that he unvotes. This outrage feels like an excuse to get off the wagon. He could be protecting partner faust, or more likely trying to frame him.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
vote: mathdude
PPE MiX saying the same thing.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Can someone look at this post and tell me with a straight face that math is town?
I'm sorry for my lack of participation the last day and a bit. I don't like to use real life as an excuse - I try to still pop in and stay relevant as much as possible (it's usually easy to pull out the phone, catch up on reading, and add a though, or respond to something). But a lot of stuff is happening right now, between current work, prospects for future work, repairs at a rental I own, and some stuff in my family that I have to attend to. It all came together at the wrong time (all at the same time), and I'm still dealing with a bunch of it.
Last night, I wrote the quoted post, in my heading really not sure where iguana was at - I had been feeling he's a bit scummy for a while, but that post of his I quoted really set off scum-bells for me. I started a re-read of him (on phone, in bed), then fell asleep. I was planning to follow up that post (where I "unvoted") with a post about iguana and likely a vote for him. That quoted post wasn't meant to be the end of my thoughts, which is why it seems incomplete. I still haven't gotten to it, and I may not today. But by tomorrow morning, I'm hoping to get back to a full iguana reread, and decide what I think of him. Hopefully 2 of the 4 main issues will be mostly complete by then, and tomorrow I can start looking through job prospects (which is conveniently on the computer, not on my phone!)
If someone wants to save me a little time and summarize iguana's posts through D1 and D2, that might save me a bit of time. But I will go through them for sure, as I feel he's one person I've basically ignored this game so far - probably the most active person I've ignored (I also have almost no thoughts on e or gk, since almost nothing they have said has stood out to me, other than their basically naked votes of me D1).
Again, sorry I left that post hanging like that. It wasn't meant to be the of my thoughts. (Consider after my previous post, that I posted again saying "iguana, I think you're scum because ... [these reasons]", then I vote for him).
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.
@EFHW, I was seeing a lot of posts like that last game too, when Math was town.
One thing I've noticed about Math is that he sort of describes things in black and white. In a way, it makes sense for a game like mafia because either you're scum or you're town. But he doesn't often seem to leave room for the uncertainty of things like "you might be town" or "you might be right, but you might be wrong." But the way he said I'm either super helpful or lying scum, it's like he had this gut reaction and he didn't even consider the in between.
And I think I was seeing that from Math and having a hard time not scum reading it in Oz as well.
I'll be honest. I'm still having trouble not reading every third thing Math says as scum. But I think there are enough reasons to consider him town right now that he shouldn't be the exile today. IMO we need to look elsewhere.
Okay, fair point on D2 busy. I am missing the town!joth pushing the game forward bit. Instead he's doing that scummy thing of "wait for it..." and we wait.
I know I am especially suspicious of him because I am townreading so many people and he is on the edge of that (out past the edge are 2.7 and gkrieg). So, while I am not voting for him yet, I think that is probably where I end up. If he's not scum, then at least his flip is informative. (So freaking smart for scum to off someone whose flip gave us no information at all. Grrrrr.)
going to iso Joth and faust, will post thoughts then go from there.I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.
Its going to be a good one, lets not exile Joth D2.
That being said, I feel as thought Joth is playing a very open unafraid game that I associate with town. Basically, you know who you are, you don't know who anyone else is, and you just go for it. His D1 reads evolved in a very (in my opinion) natural way as opposed to scum trying to force a read. Opening D2 talking about reading LaLight's posts and deciding to vote MiX could be WIFOM coming from scum who did that analysis at night, but it felt very town just rereading the game to me.
Really, nothing from Joth sticks out as scummy. I disagree with him at points, but I don't see his positions coming from scummy motives.
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.
Vote: mathdude
I realize I'm after those 10 minutes, and I'm guessing you voted me solely for self-preservation since I had the most votes. But you really should have looked at one of the people others have actually expressed a willingness to vote for. Someone whose some will actually give us reads on other people once we see a flip.
I honestly don't get the votes on me. There's nothing to defend against.
e voted me early, hasn't moved, hasn't participated much.
Iguana is the only vote I respect. He's looked at others, and decided to stick with me. It's wrong, but I respect it. And until his post just before this, it was like a tunnel, joth-like, not planning to go anywhere else (though I can no longer say that, since he's now said he's willing to move to get an exile).
gkrieg had a naked vote, I believe as well. And he hasn't said much else... regarding me or others. Just let the vote stick.
If we're going to exile someone, Jimmmmm seems the most helpful, and IMO, most likely to be scum.
EFHW should also be good tp get future reads on people, but I think she's town so I won't vote there.
Joth would also be a good vote, or maybe MiX.
I like this post. Just honest run-through on the wagon. 2 lurker votes, good vote from iguana, self-preservation from Jimmmmm. Feels like frustrated town (maybe frustrated isn't the right word, but something along those lines). My reread leaves me much townier on math.
vote: faust
MiX, did you ever talk about why you opened up on faust? Don't answer, I am reading you next. I will find it if it is there.
I'm sorry but the case for faust is not forthcoming because I have decided that faust is probably town for reasons. I will continue re-reading and come at you guys with a great, wonderful, game-changing case on someone else TBD.
Unvote
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Interested in hearing more about your faust vote. Seems very....random? I mean, you vote faust then just completely ignore both before and after. By my count, you have 4 posts interacting with faust prior to your vote and a single post after your "when you can't find scum its faust" post. Did you even look at faust or just felt like you could get some traction on faust because no one will take the time to reread everything he posted and you can build a wagon of people who start getting antsy when faust stays alive too long (thinking of the whole "If Robz is alive D4 he is scum" line of thinking, which I know faust has experienced as well)?
I don't know, your vote just doesn't sit well with me.
vote: iguana
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
So, I was reading this game, and I was like, holy crap, Joth is playing so good here. I knew he was scum, did not know his partners (except McMc, who flipped D1), did not know his role. Then... this:I found the traitor role to be very freeing. My reads were fake, but my interactions were genuine, which made the game like 50% easier, if that makes sense.
See, I think I get Joth. He has a really hard time with scum because he thrives on uncertainty. Knowing his partners takes the uncertainty out of the game and replaces it with duplicity, and I think he has a really hard time with that.
As a result, in the one example of a mafia game where he really played his heart out and fooled people, he was a traitor. The uncertainty was very much alive because he didn't know his partners.
So I guess if I am reading Joth correctly here, then that's because we are cut from the same cloth in that way. Both of us really struggle with being mafia. So as someone else who tends to lurk as scum and overplay as town, I guess I am seeing similar things from Joth's record and his current game. So he's actually one of the people I'm more confident in. The fact that he was traitor in that game really seals it.
I think Joth is town.
Doubly good becuase now this is no longer OMGUS:
Vote: 2.71828.....
I would like to hear more from gkrieg about EFHW (and in general of course).
But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?
I will join you fausty!
Vote: gkrieg
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?
Do you scumread gkrieg?
Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?
Why are you voting gkrieg?
Ok.
Vote: gkrieg
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.
I'm kind of shocked that no one amongst all the veteran players voting gkrieg has brought this up yet.
This is why I was scumreading MiX and faust. As e points out, they are doing the vast majority of the posting and the laziest possible scumhunting. It feels like scum trying to lead town down a road to nowhere.
Now I know I said that I had a townread on faust but man I'm not sure now.
The case I was going to make was about MiX and faust playing a truly audacious scum game because their metas allow them to get away with it and they know it. I know that's a big swing, but tell me it doesn't pretty neatly explain the game so far!
I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.
It’s not just the lurking… it’s that he’s outside of my town list. Now, I know my town list it too big, but if reduce my voting pool to those outside of it, it makes the choice easier.
So, since the tides are turning back to town!Joth, whose on the outs for you?
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.
I also find myself agreeing with faust's statements here. And I add to that the fact that gkrieg camped on me all day, D1, with very flimsy reasoning (and when I responded to his one actual concern, that he thought I said "we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers", even though I responded to that, showing that's not at all what I said, and he didn't respond anymore).
He's posting just enough to feel like he's participating, but he's not really adding anything. Just trying to stay relevant. And it's not working.
--snip--
But also,
Vote: gkrieg
Will you join me, iguana?I will join you fausty!
Vote: gkrieg
So these two posts are how my wagon starts? and I'm at X-1?
And gkrieg is a high caliber player, who has also done nothing but push Math and lurk. So I would say that yes the things he has done are scummy things.
I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?
Okay, Gkrieg reread is the only one I have time for since it's going to be so short:
So his first several posts are meta-related. In a way that just reflects where we were at that stage of the game, but it's also worth noting that it's incredibly easy for scum to give that type of participation and nothing more.Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.
To me, this seems potentially scummy. Partially because I am scumreading EFHW but also because it doesn't strike me as a particularly bold post that you could form a townread off of that. It does look like gkrieg and EFHW could be partners.Still haven’t reread. I have just been reading things while I have time. Nothing has convinced me that mathdude is not scum yet.
Vote: mathdude
This is basically gkrieg's only contribution to D2. Just want to say, it is hard to fake changing your reads. Especially so if you are busy and having trouble keeping up as scum. But it is incredibly easy to just post a read, give a reason, then stick with that for the entire game. And that is what gkrieg is doing here so far.
Also, while I initially was townreading gkrieg for his case on Math, I think that because Math is an easy player to pick on, he's an easy target. So I can see the scum narrative there too in terms of trying to pick a town player as scum who looks scummy in order to have a case and look town. And then you naturally end up on someone who is misexiled often.
So, to me, it's not just gkrieg lurking. It's also the content of the lurking.
I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.
I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.
I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.
As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.
The top of this post is a contradiction, no? Swowl is not active
Well, at least let me catch up reading. I'm excited to get to the case on me.
Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.
Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.
Not sure why joth keeps promising this, but not just doing it.
I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?
Well, at least let me catch up reading. I'm excited to get to the case on me.
Don’t be too excited because as far as I can tell there isn’t one.
I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?
Remind me again why. Top 2 reasons faust is town.
I feel a bit talked out... let's look at the vote count.
Vote Count 2.faust
mathdude (3): EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX
jotheonah (1): Swowl,
faust (1): 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): mathdude,
gkrieg13 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Swowl (2): jotheonah, Jimmmmm
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 will end September 27, 2021, 03:00:00 pm.
So deadline is in less than 2 days. We should make sure to actually get an exile. The people who are not on a proper wagon should either move or make a case to convince people. The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?
Remind me again why. Top 2 reasons faust is town.
- He got a town PM.
- He's not aligned with anyone else.
I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?
Remind me again why. Top 2 reasons faust is town.
- He got a town PM.
- He's not aligned with anyone else.
I feel like these aren't enough.
- He's not pushing anything extra that helps scum
- He's trying to make town win
- He's the complete opposite of last game
- He's just like any one of his town games
- He's comfortable to talk with and about
- His posts are townie
- His actions seem to be helping town
What else do you need?
1. gkrieg has completely ignored the wagon on him..
The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
Give me two good reasons the gkrieg wagon is better than the Swowl wagon.
2. Swowl is obviously town.
vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Didds, what happened to your scumread on EFHW?
Its still there, but I am trying to be fair to her...I think I find her scummy because she is cagey. I am so open that I grapple with close to the vest folks. But, she was one of the few people trying to get an exile off at the EOD, and she was so willing to do it that I don't know that it was scummy. Her wagon was 4 yesterday and never got an higher so I don't think there is enough town will to make that happen today. So, I have decided to just wait and see on her. Same with Joth.
Vote: gkrieg over math.
Forget waiting.
Vote: gkrieg
He hasn't posted in nearly 48 hours. But his profile says last active on forum at 12:34pm today. He's watching, and just hoping the wagon sways away from him. He's afraid if he says something, it will further incriminate him.
I believe that's X-1.
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
Did you read the context? It should explain it. It feels like you didn't read it, because that was a naked joth vote (which I've already said is scummy) onto a wagon that at the time had 2 people on it (me and Didds) while joth hadn't talked about EFHW at all.
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
Did you read the context? It should explain it. It feels like you didn't read it, because that was a naked joth vote (which I've already said is scummy) onto a wagon that at the time had 2 people on it (me and Didds) while joth hadn't talked about EFHW at all.
No, I get the naked vote. But at this point all WCD had done was justify why EFHW was scum this game. I feel like as town you see the naked vote and you think "Yes! Someone finally listened to me!"
As scum, you engage differently.
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
Did you read the context? It should explain it. It feels like you didn't read it, because that was a naked joth vote (which I've already said is scummy) onto a wagon that at the time had 2 people on it (me and Didds) while joth hadn't talked about EFHW at all.
No, I get the naked vote. But at this point all WCD had done was justify why EFHW was scum this game. I feel like as town you see the naked vote and you think "Yes! Someone finally listened to me!"
As scum, you engage differently.
That's not how I remember the events surrounding that time. That would be true earlier in the day IIRC.
But eh I don't feel like going all the way back to justify this. I would be much more interested in Didds' interaction with iguana and vice-versa.
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.
(snip)
This feels extremely scummy to me. More specifically, it feels like scum who had moved on from her fake scum read on EFHW but then when reminded about it kept it alive, because you never know when you need to get that mis-exile in. Basically, I don't buy WCD's read on EFHW as being a genuine town reading another player as scum.
vote: WCD
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Vote: WestCoastDidds
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Vote: WestCoastDidds
Do you actually think I’m scum? I’m disappointed. I thought you knew me better than that.
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Vote: WestCoastDidds
This kind of passive aggressive clawback from Ms. Positivity is a scum tell, IMO.
Idk what to make of MiX’s reaction unless it’s meant to distract everyone from the WCD wagon before it can get going.
Do you actually think I’m scum? I’m disappointed. I thought you knew me better than that.
If you keep acting like scum then I kinda have to.
I don't fully believe in any read anyway.
joth's ISO is literally riddled with scumslips. I've pointed out at least 2.
We could dance with math and gkrieg and exile math, but math is obviously town, gkrieg is obviously town, joth is not town, this should be apparent from just their posts, no need for interactions.
I'm not willing to vote gkrieg. And I think his wagon is scummy.
I'm really surprised there was no response from mathdude about my comments on his wall post.
I don't like my options here. I know we're all about consolidating, but if math isn't going to be an option then I'm leaning toward faust or Didds or MiX or Jimmmmm.
joth's ISO is literally riddled with scumslips. I've pointed out at least 2.
We could dance with math and gkrieg and exile math, but math is obviously town, gkrieg is obviously town, joth is not town, this should be apparent from just their posts, no need for interactions.
Can you make an actual organized case?
This post by Jimmmmm is not relevant. He uses TvT as a hypothetical, as I mentioned earlier. Jimmmmm did ultimately see what I was trying to say. But I don't want to clutter the thread with this further. If you don't agree, that's fine.
This is Jimmmmm assuming that it's TvT if Swowl's scum <snip>
So yeah I think Jimmmmm is right. If you still disagree I think this should be discussed.
I'm not willing to vote gkrieg. And I think his wagon is scummy.
I'm really surprised there was no response from mathdude about my comments on his wall post.
I don't like my options here. I know we're all about consolidating, but if math isn't going to be an option then I'm leaning toward faust or Didds or MiX or Jimmmmm.
Why is math not an option?
Here's joth making the same mistake. TvT came up a lot previously, but Jimmmmm and faust spoke hypothetically rather than using it to describe the theory. Just wondering if Swowl or joth might have scumslipped.
I think this is Swowl saying "Why do you think it was TvT?", and joth replying "This is why I think it was TvT." It's discussing the idea that Swowl is scum who pushed for having the same wagons because they were TvT.
mathdude's gkrieg vote is scummy.
mathdude's gkrieg vote is scummy.
Just self-preservation, no?
mathdude's gkrieg vote is scummy.
Just self-preservation, no?
How is that towny?
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Followed by blaming mix for trying to squash the last minute WCD wagon...
Vote: WestCoastDidds
Voting for me, today, is a waste and being stubborn about it is scummy. So, you get to decide how you want to be.
Vote: WestCoastDidds
This kind of passive aggressive clawback from Ms. Positivity is a scum tell, IMO.
Idk what to make of MiX’s reaction unless it’s meant to distract everyone from the WCD wagon before it can get going.
Do you actually think I’m scum? I’m disappointed. I thought you knew me better than that.
If you keep acting like scum then I kinda have to.
I don't fully believe in any read anyway.
Yeah, scum loves to start new wagons at the end of the day just when town is consolidating. That’s a thing that only scum does and scum always does.
vote: mathdude
And then you say skum always tries to start a new wagon EOD... right after you attempted to start a new wagon on Didds.
I'm not willing to vote gkrieg. And I think his wagon is scummy.
I'm really surprised there was no response from mathdude about my comments on his wall post.
I don't like my options here. I know we're all about consolidating, but if math isn't going to be an option then I'm leaning toward faust or Didds or MiX or Jimmmmm.
I'm not willing to vote gkrieg. And I think his wagon is scummy.
I'm really surprised there was no response from mathdude about my comments on his wall post.
I don't like my options here. I know we're all about consolidating, but if math isn't going to be an option then I'm leaning toward faust or Didds or MiX or Jimmmmm.
Reply to wall post... sort of.
I didn't think there was much there to respond to... the only main issue you seemed to have was that I skipped stuff and you thought I skipped the good stuff. There was a lot of posts I was quoting and responding to doing the reread. I had to pick some to skip. I kept the ones that stood out to me as I skimmed through. Even 1 or 2 of the long ones, I snipped, yes. I admit (and admitted at the time), I don't/didn't have a closed, condemning case. I was just providing my thoughts as I reread. Of course we would see the importance of some statements differ. That's part of the game.
I want it to be you. mathdude would not have been my first choice for an alternate wagon, but what can you do?I feel a bit talked out... let's look at the vote count.
Vote Count 2.faust
mathdude (3): EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX
jotheonah (1): Swowl,
faust (1): 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): mathdude,
gkrieg13 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Swowl (2): jotheonah, Jimmmmm
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 will end September 27, 2021, 03:00:00 pm.
So deadline is in less than 2 days. We should make sure to actually get an exile. The people who are not on a proper wagon should either move or make a case to convince people. The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.
So you want it to be me/math?
In a better position than if we had exiled an active town player. Exiling people who are active because then there are opinions about them has always been a stupid play that punishes engagement with the game. We made a wagon on you and people have reacted to it, so it's not like we couldn't deduce anything from that.I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.
In a game where we no-exiled D1, the N1 kill was a lurker, and there has been a lot of discussion around several people (faust, joth, math), you want to exile someone because of PoE and XAL? How does my flip help you for the rest of the game?
When I flip town and someone like e is killed in the night, where does that leave town for the rest of the game?
Okay, fair point on D2 busy. I am missing the town!joth pushing the game forward bit. Instead he's doing that scummy thing of "wait for it..." and we wait.
I know I am especially suspicious of him because I am townreading so many people and he is on the edge of that (out past the edge are 2.7 and gkrieg). So, while I am not voting for him yet, I think that is probably where I end up. If he's not scum, then at least his flip is informative. (So freaking smart for scum to off someone whose flip gave us no information at all. Grrrrr.)
Not exactly sure why, but the last parenthetical really seems like Didds waving her fist at herself.
I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.
Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.
In a game where we no-exiled D1, the N1 kill was a lurker, and there has been a lot of discussion around several people (faust, joth, math), you want to exile someone because of PoE and XAL? How does my flip help you for the rest of the game?
When I flip town and someone like e is killed in the night, where does that leave town for the rest of the game?
I think a switch to faust could be a good idea.
Okay, Gkrieg reread is the only one I have time for since it's going to be so short:
So his first several posts are meta-related. In a way that just reflects where we were at that stage of the game, but it's also worth noting that it's incredibly easy for scum to give that type of participation and nothing more.Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.
To me, this seems potentially scummy. Partially because I am scumreading EFHW but also because it doesn't strike me as a particularly bold post that you could form a townread off of that. It does look like gkrieg and EFHW could be partners.Still haven’t reread. I have just been reading things while I have time. Nothing has convinced me that mathdude is not scum yet.
Vote: mathdude
This is basically gkrieg's only contribution to D2. Just want to say, it is hard to fake changing your reads. Especially so if you are busy and having trouble keeping up as scum. But it is incredibly easy to just post a read, give a reason, then stick with that for the entire game. And that is what gkrieg is doing here so far.
Also, while I initially was townreading gkrieg for his case on Math, I think that because Math is an easy player to pick on, he's an easy target. So I can see the scum narrative there too in terms of trying to pick a town player as scum who looks scummy in order to have a case and look town. And then you naturally end up on someone who is misexiled often.
So, to me, it's not just gkrieg lurking. It's also the content of the lurking.
I'm turning out to basically not have time to play today. Girieg said something like there is no case on him, but when he quoted my case on him he quoted only the part where I voted and ignored my actual reread of him where I gave reasons and didn't respond to any of that.
So I am happy to still be voting gkrieg.
People are saying something about WCD being scum and us being buddies and that does not make sense to me at all.
Vote: gkrieg
I spent my mafia time today looking at comments that faust made on a setup I am trying to open, then came to check the thread. That was a mistake because there is a lot in here that I should respond to and now don't really have time to. I was hoping to do a read through of Swowl, gkrieg, faust, Joth, EFHW, and Math.
That is obviously not going to happen and starting tomorrow I'll be gone for two days. However, I'll be back before deadline and hopefully can do some of that work then.
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
This feels extremely scummy to me. More specifically, it feels like scum who had moved on from her fake scum read on EFHW but then when reminded about it kept it alive, because you never know when you need to get that mis-exile in. Basically, I don't buy WCD's read on EFHW as being a genuine town reading another player as scum.
MiXy, I wish I could trust you. Alas. My vote stays where it is.
This post by Jimmmmm is not relevant. He uses TvT as a hypothetical, as I mentioned earlier. Jimmmmm did ultimately see what I was trying to say. But I don't want to clutter the thread with this further. If you don't agree, that's fine.
This is Jimmmmm assuming that it's TvT if Swowl's scum <snip>
So yeah I think Jimmmmm is right. If you still disagree I think this should be discussed.
Anyway uh now we have 3 viable wagons instead of 2. Congratulations everyone.I mean, it was you who made that third wagon happen, I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
Now, are we actually going to consolidate?
Anyway uh now we have 3 viable wagons instead of 2. Congratulations everyone.I mean, it was you who made that third wagon happen, I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
Now, are we actually going to consolidate?
You know how I like to keep you guessing!MiXy, I wish I could trust you. Alas. My vote stays where it is.
Didds, you shouldn't post on other people's accounts.
I don't understand this. What does your vote have to do with me?
I think a switch to faust could be a good idea.
I'd switch to faust.
(I don’t actually think he’s scum currently. I think he and MiX are annoyingly wrong town together.)
(I don’t actually think he’s scum currently. I think he and MiX are annoyingly wrong town together.)
To be more clear, I don’t currently think he’s actually scum. Not implying an alignment change.
(I don’t actually think he’s scum currently. I think he and MiX are annoyingly wrong town together.)
(I don’t actually think he’s scum currently. I think he and MiX are annoyingly wrong town together.)How am I wrong? Do you think gkrieg is town? If so, why?
(I don’t actually think he’s scum currently. I think he and MiX are annoyingly wrong town together.)How am I wrong? Do you think gkrieg is town? If so, why?
But idk why people don't see that Swowl is just the same exile but better.If you believe that I am town then you should also believe that I have a good reason to call Swowl town.
-snip-
-snip-
Player Vote Last post (time before deadline) Wagons at time of last post Ability to change vote before deadline Willingness to change vote MiX joth Around at deadline math 5, joth 4 Yes Unwilling to move to mathdude Swowl joth Around at deadline math 5, joth 4 Yes Did not move to mathdude, but later indicated he tried to but was late EFHW math Around at deadline math 5, joth 4 Yes Yes iguana math 30 minutes math 4, joth 4, Jim 3 Later indicated inability due to being pulled away, and then was late Indicated willing to avoid nexile gkrieg math 45 minutes math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 Indicated likely inability joth yes, Jim no e math 55 minutes math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 No indication joth yes, Jim no faust joth 1 hour math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 Later indicated he tried to but was late No indication math Jim 1.5 hours math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 No indication Presumed willing due to self-preservation Jim math 3 hours math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 Inability due to timezones No indication joth Jim 3 hours math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 Later indicated inability due to RL stuff Presumed willing due to self-preservation Didds joth 3.5 hours math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 Unsure due to going to the lake Yes
Jim has voted for: gkrieg
Intent to hammer gkrieg at my lunch break (1:15 forum time)
Alright, well I would like to get claims and other X-1 shenanigans out of the way sooner rather than later and I would like to save my own hide which I'm increasingly concerned about and I guess if I'm going to townread faust then I suppose I can also sheep him so, though it pains me to do so, and though I suspect this preamble is going to look scummy if gkrieg flips town and my whole day will look scummy if he flips scum, which is going to make for a rough day 3 in any case,
vote: gkrieg
sigh.
Alright, well I would like to get claims and other X-1 shenanigans out of the way sooner rather than later and I would like to save my own hide which I'm increasingly concerned about and I guess if I'm going to townread faust then I suppose I can also sheep him so, though it pains me to do so, and though I suspect this preamble is going to look scummy if gkrieg flips town and my whole day will look scummy if he flips scum, which is going to make for a rough day 3 in any case,
vote: gkrieg
sigh.
Sorry for distrusting you joth, I just can't accept misreading you ever.
Jim has voted for: gkrieg
Also Swowl.
Math, any conclusions from those votes?
Cause just throwing stuff out there is very scum indicative.
vote: Didds
It seems joth has a lot more strong opinions about others than I remember others having about him. I feel it's better to get a read on joth once we get a flip or two (from people he's commented about), rather than flipping him to try and use that to get reads on others. If he's scum, it will come out soon, whether one of his strong townreads flips scum, or something else. gkrieg has more people having opinions about him. They both have made posts that can very easily fit the scum narrative, but I'd rather keep my vote on gkrieg.
vote: faustI'm sure you have some solid reasoning behind that considering how annoyed you were by the votes on you that didn't have reasoning.
Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.
Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.
At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.
vote: faust
I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.
I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.
I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.
As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.
Finally at a computer and able to look at the game carefully. It looks like gkrieg is about to be hammered?
Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.
Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.
At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.
Okay, so I see here you actually did respond to my read of you, actually you did twice now because I called you out for not doing that. But to me, the issue is--yes it's easy to fake changing your reads, but also it's even easier to fake keeping your reads the same when you don't even give reasons for any of those reads. And that was your D2 up to the point that you got pressure on you.
It's absurd for you in a way to be arguing that all of the cases against you are so flimsy. The cases on you are based on very little because you said very little until you had four votes on you. But that in itself is scummy.
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
I'm not willing to vote gkrieg. And I think his wagon is scummy.
I'm really surprised there was no response from mathdude about my comments on his wall post.
I don't like my options here. I know we're all about consolidating, but if math isn't going to be an option then I'm leaning toward faust or Didds or MiX or Jimmmmm.
Reply to wall post... sort of.
I didn't think there was much there to respond to... the only main issue you seemed to have was that I skipped stuff and you thought I skipped the good stuff. There was a lot of posts I was quoting and responding to doing the reread. I had to pick some to skip. I kept the ones that stood out to me as I skimmed through. Even 1 or 2 of the long ones, I snipped, yes. I admit (and admitted at the time), I don't/didn't have a closed, condemning case. I was just providing my thoughts as I reread. Of course we would see the importance of some statements differ. That's part of the game.
My point was that you took a post with helpful content, snipped that content, and then presented what was left as an example of an unhelpful post.
Finally at a computer and able to look at the game carefully. It looks like gkrieg is about to be hammered?
Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.
Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.
At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.
Okay, so I see here you actually did respond to my read of you, actually you did twice now because I called you out for not doing that. But to me, the issue is--yes it's easy to fake changing your reads, but also it's even easier to fake keeping your reads the same when you don't even give reasons for any of those reads. And that was your D2 up to the point that you got pressure on you.
It's absurd for you in a way to be arguing that all of the cases against you are so flimsy. The cases on you are based on very little because you said very little until you had four votes on you. But that in itself is scummy.
My read on EFHW has changed. You are taking only my read on mathdude as not changing.
What do you think about any of my recent posts? Do they not matter?
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
Exiling someone because you think another non-flipped person is scummy is also not a great reason.
Finally at a computer and able to look at the game carefully. It looks like gkrieg is about to be hammered?
Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.
Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.
At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.
Okay, so I see here you actually did respond to my read of you, actually you did twice now because I called you out for not doing that. But to me, the issue is--yes it's easy to fake changing your reads, but also it's even easier to fake keeping your reads the same when you don't even give reasons for any of those reads. And that was your D2 up to the point that you got pressure on you.
It's absurd for you in a way to be arguing that all of the cases against you are so flimsy. The cases on you are based on very little because you said very little until you had four votes on you. But that in itself is scummy.
My read on EFHW has changed. You are taking only my read on mathdude as not changing.
What do you think about any of my recent posts? Do they not matter?
I think they matter less unfortunately because they were written under pressure and I think you can create something convincing under pressure when necessary. I also didn't see anything in there that surprised me or caused me to re-assess my opinion on how you are seeing things this game.
-snip-
My read on EFHW has changed. -snip-
Finally at a computer and able to look at the game carefully. It looks like gkrieg is about to be hammered?
Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.
Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.
At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.
Okay, so I see here you actually did respond to my read of you, actually you did twice now because I called you out for not doing that. But to me, the issue is--yes it's easy to fake changing your reads, but also it's even easier to fake keeping your reads the same when you don't even give reasons for any of those reads. And that was your D2 up to the point that you got pressure on you.
It's absurd for you in a way to be arguing that all of the cases against you are so flimsy. The cases on you are based on very little because you said very little until you had four votes on you. But that in itself is scummy.
My read on EFHW has changed. You are taking only my read on mathdude as not changing.
What do you think about any of my recent posts? Do they not matter?
I think they matter less unfortunately because they were written under pressure and I think you can create something convincing under pressure when necessary. I also didn't see anything in there that surprised me or caused me to re-assess my opinion on how you are seeing things this game.
So next time I'm not engaged in a game and have a wagon on me, I just shouldn't try to post anything because it has no chance of changing people's minds because it was written under pressure?
Cool. What a colossal waste of my time.
I am starting to become worried about Joth. MiX has mentioned scumslips from Joth and this one was brought up:I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.
I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.
I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.
As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.
So if I'm parsing MiX right, this is a scumslip because Joth says in (in one frame of mind) "all three scum are active and good at the game" -- He's telling a truth here at least about himself. He's proud of his high activity scum play, which is markedly different from many (but not all) of his scum games and considers that he's playing this game well so far.
Then he slips back into his deception mode, and considers what his fake scumreads should be. He lands on Swowl, who he feels others think should be scummy. And doesn't notice that he's made a contradiction in that he just said "all three scum are active" and switched to calling his top scumread, who has not been at all active.
So if that is actually a scumslip, it's sort of a convoluted one? But it's one that I can at least understand, which is more than I can say about many scumslip arguments.
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
Exiling someone because you think another non-flipped person is scummy is also not a great reason.
Howdy hey… we have two hours?
Are we still thinking gkrieg? Iguana, it looks like you’re rethinking?
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
Exiling someone because you think another non-flipped person is scummy is also not a great reason.
yeah I'm sorry I think my defense of you may have done more harm than good. to both of us.
Considering that Joth may be scum is one of the things that makes me feel good about a gkrieg exile today because I do think they could be partners. In that, if Joth is scum, his partners would have been much more likely to be on the math wagon yesterday. And we would also be looking for someone who continued to push Math over Joth the following day. And gkrieg is the main person who fits that description.
Exiling someone because you think another non-flipped person is scummy is also not a great reason.
yeah I'm sorry I think my defense of you may have done more harm than good. to both of us.
??? Swowl has the lowest # of posts in the thread, I just checked.
I quoted the wrong Joth post there. I meant to quote him saying Swowl has been active D2.
I don't know if I would vote Swowl. faust made sure that was not a viable wagon today. I don't think I like voting Swowl when faust is saying that it's a bad choice. That could definitely change with my opinion of faust though.
I quoted the wrong Joth post there. I meant to quote him saying Swowl has been active D2.
I don't know if I would vote Swowl. faust made sure that was not a viable wagon today. I don't think I like voting Swowl when faust is saying that it's a bad choice. That could definitely change with my opinion of faust though.
You really think that faust's reads are that good that you form your opinions based on his reads? And you are that sure about him being town?
My reaction to VT was that it gave no indication it would not come from scum because I've seen scum claim VT at X-1 a million times.
So I don't really know what to make of your argument.
I've seen scum claim VT at X-1 a million times.
But Swowl has been active day 2.
Oops, forgot about Swowl.
gkrieg's frustration here is relatable, but not alignment indicative. I could see this coming from scum or town.
the VT claim from gkrieg is pretty towny. all other things equal, scum should claim a PR at X1 so they can at worst get a counterclaim out of their exile and at best buy another day. That's best play in most cases.
scum!gkrieg should only claim VT if he thinks that it will somehow get him off the hook, and there was no indication here that it would. Doesn't that give anyone else pause?
Unvote
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
There has been recent interest expressed in a Didds exile and I disagree with the gkrieg wagon. This frees me up to vote wherever I want, since I know I won't be voting for him. Her intent to hammer was scummy because there is no case. She seems to be doing what other people want without having any strong feeling about gkrieg herself.vote: Didds
How is this helpful, less than 4 hours to deadline... without any reasons telling others why they should join?
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
Sure.
faust made a bad suggestion
everyone else got onboard for some reason
a few of us tried to steer us to other places but nobody listened to us and everybody scumread us
I finally relented out of self-preservation and resignation
we're about to hammer someone who's I'd say 70/30 to be town
vote: Didds
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
Sure.
faust made a bad suggestion
everyone else got onboard for some reason
a few of us tried to steer us to other places but nobody listened to us and everybody scumread us
I finally relented out of self-preservation and resignation
we're about to hammer someone who's I'd say 70/30 to be town
Dayvig: joth
Can anyone else give me a summary of events?
I sit here and I write the case and I write the case and people keep saying there is no case. Sorry, but that's scummy too.
There has been recent interest expressed in a Didds exile and I disagree with the gkrieg wagon. This frees me up to vote wherever I want, since I know I won't be voting for him. Her intent to hammer was scummy because there is no case. She seems to be doing what other people want without having any strong feeling about gkrieg herself.vote: Didds
How is this helpful, less than 4 hours to deadline... without any reasons telling others why they should join?
alright, I'll face the facts that we're not going to get a different exile off in the next 1.5 hours.
vote: gkrieg
I actually think that faust is also likely town, and just adding to his horrible track record of reading me incorrectly.Lol this comes from the dude who tried ot start a last-minute wagon on me.
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
Didds has been off all game honestly. More aggressive and less cautious than usual. Reads not as well backed up as usual.Yeah that's not scummy.
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
I'm here.
Before you hammer, can I get a summary of events?
I don't think you can get a summary of events before the hammer anymore, no.
Didds has been off all game honestly. More aggressive and less cautious than usual. Reads not as well backed up as usual.
Didds has been off all game honestly. More aggressive and less cautious than usual. Reads not as well backed up as usual.Yeah that's not scummy.
Gkrieg has to be scum here.
I'm town, but I'm just happy this is over. Biggest waste of time.
I actually think that faust is also likely town, and just adding to his horrible track record of reading me incorrectly.Lol this comes from the dude who tried ot start a last-minute wagon on me.
I seriously doubt we have two dayvigs but if all three of you would flip at once, it would actually be super helpful.
I actually think that faust is also likely town, and just adding to his horrible track record of reading me incorrectly.Lol this comes from the dude who tried ot start a last-minute wagon on me.
Seemed like the only thing that could get traction, and you somehow will escape any scrutiny for misexiling me once again as town.
I seriously doubt we have two dayvigs but if all three of you would flip at once, it would actually be super helpful.
There are no dayvigs in this setup.
Vote: gkrieg
I seriously doubt we have two dayvigs but if all three of you would flip at once, it would actually be super helpful.
There are no dayvigs in this setup.
It's a joke
We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
No, we'll decide when it comes to that. Tonight a lot can happen.
We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
No, we'll decide when it comes to that. Tonight a lot can happen.
Agree with MiX. This is a big leap, joth, assuming there will be no successful doctors, roleblockers, or vigilantes (if any are in the setup) tonight. Also, even cop results may be helpful, standalone, without a massclaim. We will see what D3 brings. Don't start hedging already.
It is more likely that my wagon is riddled with scum.
It is more likely that my wagon is riddled with scum.
It is more likely that my wagon is riddled with scum.
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
The wagon is trash and once again scum is always in math/joth. They dodged the exile today for no reason.
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
The wagon is trash and once again scum is always in math/joth. They dodged the exile today for no reason.
You understand that you were on the wagon right?
It is more likely that my wagon is riddled with scum.
If gkrieg is town I doubt it.
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
The wagon is trash and once again scum is always in math/joth. They dodged the exile today for no reason.
You understand that you were on the wagon right?
MiX, I don't get you. Does the fact that you were wrong here not introduce any trace of humility, any inclination to re-examine whether you might be wrong about other things? Or do you just want to keep bull-headedly leading town down the same wrong path until we lose? Or are you just scum?
Didds' reaction to the last-minute wagon on her is worth a look too. I don't think she professed her towniness one time. She just expressed indignation at it and tried to ward it off on pragmatic terms (only existing wagons are viable). That doesn't jibe with my understanding of town Didds.
And the fact that MiX really wanted to get the hammer in before we could affectively course change (which we almost did) should also make us strongly consider him tomorrow.
Not going to math or joth would never, ever, flip scum.
Not going to math or joth would never, ever, flip scum.
This is provably, objectively untrue since there are three scum and only two of me and math.
Not going to math or joth would never, ever, flip scum.
This is provably, objectively untrue since there are three scum and only two of me and math.
Well...not if you, math and gkrieg are all scum.
Not going to math or joth would never, ever, flip scum.
This is provably, objectively untrue since there are three scum and only two of me and math.
Well...not if you, math and gkrieg are all scum.
Well if that turns out to be the case, shame on gkrieg for trolling, shame on me for trolling, and good for you for catching the whole scum team and winning the game.
Here. And glancing doesn’t look like I need to be. Are we done for the day?
What's a CFD?
Joth is being really self righteous :
Joth is being really self righteous :
I'm just frustrated because I spent all day yelling "gkrieg is town". It's frustrating when you're good at the figuring-it-out part of mafia but bad at the convincing-others part.
Is it okay to be disappointed in Dylan not being here to close the thread instantly like before?What's a CFD?
Chinese Fire Drill; in mafia, it means building up a new wagon quickly near deadline, kinda what was going to happen with Didds today.
Surely someone else can explain it better.
Joth is being really self righteous :
I'm just frustrated because I spent all day yelling "gkrieg is town". It's frustrating when you're good at the figuring-it-out part of mafia but bad at the convincing-others part.
Why were you not parked on math then?
You moved to Swowl and stuff, right, but if you really wanted to save gkrieg, you would've pushed for math.
Next time I will just not come back into the thread to engage.
What's a CFD?
Chinese Fire Drill; in mafia, it means building up a new wagon quickly near deadline, kinda what was going to happen with Didds today.
Surely someone else can explain it better.
Next time I will just not come back into the thread to engage.
If this is scum-driven then does that make a difference?
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
The wagon is trash and once again scum is always in math/joth. They dodged the exile today for no reason.
You understand that you were on the wagon right?
Only because you didn't vote math or joth.
Still a little bit hoping that gkrieg is just lying.......
So, with that NK scum is what? Didds, Iguana, and joth?How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Least confident about joth, but you get to a certain point and PoE does the rest
Why is that? That is what I felt while reading.Still a little bit hoping that gkrieg is just lying.......
Also, things like this were super scummy in twilight
Vote: e
Might as well.
So, with that NK scum is what? Didds, Iguana, and joth?How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Least confident about joth, but you get to a certain point and PoE does the rest
Why is that? That is what I felt while reading.Still a little bit hoping that gkrieg is just lying.......
Also, things like this were super scummy in twilight
Because he's scum.Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
Because he's scum.Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
Also, MiX has been able to quite effectively stay out of the spotlight this game so far, while also putting a lot of influence into where votes go. I think we have enough to look at right now, and we don't need to go prying into him at the moment. But in 1-2 days if we're having trouble finding a 3rd, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being MiX. As for now, I'm just going to be keeping an eye on his reads.
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Why’s that??
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
Could you expand on your perspective? From my perspective I don't think we should
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Why’s that??
Because i was right about gkrieg. And also, I mean, just look at me.
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Why’s that??
Because i was right about gkrieg. And also, I mean, just look at me.
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
I don’t know if you are so, so wrong or just scum. I want it to be so, so wrong (the aforementioned soft spot) but I’m not sure what would convince you.
Because i was right about gkrieg.
Didds, what was your reaction to the EFHW flip? Does it change how you'll read her in the future?
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Why’s that??
Because i was right about gkrieg. And also, I mean, just look at me.
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
I don’t know if you are so, so wrong or just scum. I want it to be so, so wrong (the aforementioned soft spot) but I’m not sure what would convince you.
Your flip?
Didds, what was your reaction to the EFHW flip? Does it change how you'll read her in the future?
Well, it has to, right? The cagey was more about her PR than scumminess. Okay. One thing I see is that her frustration with me was authentic, and I hope I’ll be able to discern that again.
Didds, what was your reaction to the EFHW flip? Does it change how you'll read her in the future?
Well, it has to, right? The cagey was more about her PR than scumminess. Okay. One thing I see is that her frustration with me was authentic, and I hope I’ll be able to discern that again.
Were you surprised?
Vote: e
Might as well.
Why vote? Why e?
I still think we should look into math and joth. I think the Didds CFD only happens if one of them is scum.
EFHW's off wagon...
Lolol I’m IC bitches.
Why’s that??
Because i was right about gkrieg. And also, I mean, just look at me.
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
I don’t know if you are so, so wrong or just scum. I want it to be so, so wrong (the aforementioned soft spot) but I’m not sure what would convince you.
Your flip?
So, what will be the atonement if my flip demonstrates you were so, so wrong? Sadz that we lose? Beers for the speccy?
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
Swowl, faust, Didds/e
Swowl, faust, Didds/e
Is "Didds/e" one or the other, but both won't be scum?
But to be fair (to be fhar..)
Also, MiX has been able to quite effectively stay out of the spotlight this game so far, while also putting a lot of influence into where votes go. I think we have enough to look at right now, and we don't need to go prying into him at the moment. But in 1-2 days if we're having trouble finding a 3rd, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being MiX. As for now, I'm just going to be keeping an eye on his reads.
Ooooooh look at my influence, I'm sure you AND joth flipped, which is who I was voting for this entire game.
Scum team is MiX, Didds, and one more.
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
Could you expand on your perspective? From my perspective I don't think we should
Okay, sure. We are 6 town and 3 scum with 5 to exile. That puts us in a position where it will really help to PoE scum to win. I think claims will help us PoE scum.
Swowl, faust, Didds/eYou should reread; this list makes no sense.
Swowl, faust, Didds/eYou should reread; this list makes no sense.
Swowl, faust, Didds/eYou should reread; this list makes no sense.
Because you're on it?
Also but I am not surprised by that; but the rest of the list makes no sense either.Swowl, faust, Didds/eYou should reread; this list makes no sense.
Because you're on it?
I have not solved the gameThen maybe you should get to work on that!
I have not solved the gameThen maybe you should get to work on that!
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
That is not the solution you are looking for
I'm not sure why you think so but if it is because of the 1-shot Doc flip that's not true. A single E can result in just a 1-shot Doctor and no full Doctor.Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
That is not the solution you are looking for
Yeah, we have a Doctor.
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
That is not the solution you are looking for
Yeah, we have a Doctor.
EFHW's flip
I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
Very good. I agree about the mass claim, and I have also solved the game.
So let's start with iguana
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
That is not the solution you are looking for
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
That is not the solution you are looking for
I would like you to explain exactly what you mean by this.
I agree with IguanaI had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
Very good. I agree about the mass claim, and I have also solved the game.
So let's start with iguana
my order would be
Joth/Iguana
E!
Math
MiX/Faust
Jim/WCD
Swowl
But yes, if we did do it, I would be fine with Iguana being first. Though you suggesting it makes me slightly weary.
I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
We have to do a massclaim now.I guess it's probably fine. But e is scum anyways so we might as well exile him first.
I agree with Swowl's order.
We have to do a massclaim now.I guess it's probably fine. But e is scum anyways so we might as well exile him first.
I agree with Swowl's order.
We have to do a massclaim now.I guess it's probably fine. But e is scum anyways so we might as well exile him first.
I agree with Swowl's order.
No reason not to make his team claim before they know which scum role flips first.
Alright, alright, we should do the massclaim, and do it in Swowl's order.
Noone has put me and MiX in their scum team suggestion, so now you can trust that at least one townie advocates for this.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for today
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for todaySo who did you investigate N1?
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Should this change the order in which we exile them?
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for todaySo who did you investigate N1?
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
That's what happens I feel like.So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Should this change the order in which we exile them?
I would wait for the rest of the massclaim.
You've been rushing this too much I feel. Just wait for scum to trap themselves.
So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Should this change the order in which we exile them?
I would wait for the rest of the massclaim.
You've been rushing this too much I feel. Just wait for scum to trap themselves.
So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
I'm not sure I understand your question.So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Are you guessing or have you solved it?
Right, a 1-shot Cop who just decided to not use their power N1 ::)
Because you thought "no info is good, let's have no info for longer"?Right, a 1-shot Cop who just decided to not use their power N1 ::)
That is correct.
With a no exile, no info, I took a risk and didn't investigate
I'm not sure I understand your question.So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Are you guessing or have you solved it?
What, in your mind, is the distinction between guessing and having solved it?I'm not sure I understand your question.So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Are you guessing or have you solved it?
Which part?
I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
What, in your mind, is the distinction between guessing and having solved it?
They are at least not mutually exclusive as you seem to suggest.What, in your mind, is the distinction between guessing and having solved it?
Are you suggesting that in your mind they are the same?
Solved implies certainly. Guess implies uncertainty.I have found enough town to be fairly certain that we will win the game if we exile among the non-town group. That does not mean I know exactly who the scum are in that group.
I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
Yes. It's a play for towncred.I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
What you are suggesting is that E! is skum faking a result on partner!iguana here yes?
I have found enough town to be fairly certain that we will win the game if we exile among the non-town group. That does not mean I know exactly who the scum are in that group.
Yes. It's a play for towncred.I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
What you are suggesting is that E! is skum faking a result on partner!iguana here yes?
Five really, but I am confident once the first flips come in we can suss out who the town among them is. There are subsets of these 5 that cannot be scum together. I also used to be more confident that I could take you out of the pool, which would have brought it down to 4.I have found enough town to be fairly certain that we will win the game if we exile among the non-town group. That does not mean I know exactly who the scum are in that group.
So there are 4 players about whom you're certain 3 of them are scum?
What shook your confidence?
What shook your confidence?The way you reacted to me, and the way you continue to focus on this conversation rather than address e vs iguana.
What shook your confidence?The way you reacted to me, and the way you continue to focus on this conversation rather than address e vs iguana.
Five really, but I am confident once the first flips come in we can suss out who the town among them is. There are subsets of these 5 that cannot be scum together. I also used to be more confident that I could take you out of the pool, which would have brought it down to 4.I have found enough town to be fairly certain that we will win the game if we exile among the non-town group. That does not mean I know exactly who the scum are in that group.
So there are 4 players about whom you're certain 3 of them are scum?
e isn't town. But yeah.Five really, but I am confident once the first flips come in we can suss out who the town among them is. There are subsets of these 5 that cannot be scum together. I also used to be more confident that I could take you out of the pool, which would have brought it down to 4.I have found enough town to be fairly certain that we will win the game if we exile among the non-town group. That does not mean I know exactly who the scum are in that group.
So there are 4 players about whom you're certain 3 of them are scum?
so your idea is to go for E!.
If E! is skum, then go for Iguana.
And if E! is town, obv also go for iguana?
But you wanna go for E! first?
What shook your confidence?
you should already know the answer to that.
What shook your confidence?The way you reacted to me, and the way you continue to focus on this conversation rather than address e vs iguana.
Okay a) that's sounding a lot like a threat and b) if you had given me a straight answer this conversation could have been a lot shorter.
I can't give a straight answer if I don't know what the question is.What shook your confidence?The way you reacted to me, and the way you continue to focus on this conversation rather than address e vs iguana.
Okay a) that's sounding a lot like a threat and b) if you had given me a straight answer this conversation could have been a lot shorter.
What shook your confidence?
you should already know the answer to that.
Is the answer as you see it the same as the one faust gave?
I can't give a straight answer if I don't know what the question is.
That's what I already said. Not sure why you need to ask again.I can't give a straight answer if I don't know what the question is.
Oh come on. You don't understand what "Are you guessing or have you solved it?" means?
What part of that seems like a threat?
That's what I already said. Not sure why you need to ask again.I can't give a straight answer if I don't know what the question is.
Oh come on. You don't understand what "Are you guessing or have you solved it?" means?
Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
What part of that seems like a threat?
It sounds like "Step in line and do what I want or I'll scumread you".
What part of that seems like a threat?
It sounds like "Step in line and do what I want or I'll scumread you".
Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
Right, a 1-shot Cop who just decided to not use their power N1 ::)
That is correct.
With a no exile, no info, I took a risk and didn't investigate
What part of that seems like a threat?
It sounds like "Step in line and do what I want or I'll scumread you".
Spooky scary scumread!
Just catch 2 scum. Then who cares if you flip?Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
Cause he's caught?
Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
Well, yes. After you clarified.That's what I already said. Not sure why you need to ask again.I can't give a straight answer if I don't know what the question is.
Oh come on. You don't understand what "Are you guessing or have you solved it?" means?
You understood the question and were capable of providing an answer.
Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
Well scum definitinely wants us to flip iguana before e. And if iguana is town, then they are okay with e being flipped next. But I don't think iguana is town.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
If e is who scum wants to flip, then we flip iguana, right? So this contradicts what you said before.
Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
Yes. As a rule, scum tends to overestimate the amount of danger they are in.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
So you think we were finding skum today, or at least that skum thought that we were finding skum today?
Well scum definitinely wants us to flip iguana before e. And if iguana is town, then they are okay with e being flipped next. But I don't think iguana is town.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
If e is who scum wants to flip, then we flip iguana, right? So this contradicts what you said before.
I'm very confused now. Where is the contradiction?Well scum definitinely wants us to flip iguana before e. And if iguana is town, then they are okay with e being flipped next. But I don't think iguana is town.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
If e is who scum wants to flip, then we flip iguana, right? So this contradicts what you said before.
that's like... what "contradicts" means....
or personal bias I guess is the more correct term . But still, you are basing the whole thing on your read that II is skumWell scum definitinely wants us to flip iguana before e. And if iguana is town, then they are okay with e being flipped next. But I don't think iguana is town.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
If e is who scum wants to flip, then we flip iguana, right? So this contradicts what you said before.
that's like... what "contradicts" means....
or personal bias I guess is the more correct term . But still, you are basing the whole thing on your read that II is skumThat's clearly not true. If anything, I am biased towards thinking that e is scum; I mean, I was voting for the guy before the claim. I had not made up my mind about iguana.
or personal bias I guess is the more correct term . But still, you are basing the whole thing on your read that II is skumThat's clearly not true. If anything, I am biased towards thinking that e is scum; I mean, I was voting for the guy before the claim. I had not made up my mind about iguana.
I mean my argument is thus:
If iguana is scum, then we should exile e first, because scum wants us to exile iguana.
If iguana is town, then we should exile e, because... iguana is town.
So no matter iguana's alignment it's best to exile e.
or personal bias I guess is the more correct term . But still, you are basing the whole thing on your read that II is skumThat's clearly not true. If anything, I am biased towards thinking that e is scum; I mean, I was voting for the guy before the claim. I had not made up my mind about iguana.
Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
Right, a 1-shot Cop who just decided to not use their power N1 ::)
That is correct.
With a no exile, no info, I took a risk and didn't investigate
Can you go over this decision with more detail?
Yes. As a rule, scum tends to overestimate the amount of danger they are in.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
So you think we were finding skum today, or at least that skum thought that we were finding skum today?
Yes. As a rule, scum tends to overestimate the amount of danger they are in.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
So you think we were finding skum today, or at least that skum thought that we were finding skum today?
I tend to underestimate the amount of danger I am in.
I claimed when I did because I did not want anyone else to claim. I mean, sure, iguana is going to claim what he prepped last night, but I don't want town to claim.
For example, we don't need our UB outed. (If we have one)
Yes. I have also been voting e for a brief moment during D2, before annoyingly deciding to go for gkrieg instead.
If I'm right then scum probably already suspects all of this. If I'm wrong then maybe someone can point out to me why that is. Too many people have been suspecting MiX/Didds and I figured maybe this will give them something to think about.Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
why would you say this?
Yes. I have also been voting e for a brief moment during D2, before annoyingly deciding to go for gkrieg instead.
Could you have tried to sheep me instead? At least attempt to?
MiXy, I wish I could trust you. Alas. My vote stays where it is.At the time I wasn't seeing the potential for Masons.
Yes. I have also been voting e for a brief moment during D2, before annoyingly deciding to go for gkrieg instead.
Could you have tried to sheep me instead? At least attempt to?MiXy, I wish I could trust you. Alas. My vote stays where it is.At the time I wasn't seeing the potential for Masons.
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
Because you thought "no info is good, let's have no info for longer"?Right, a 1-shot Cop who just decided to not use their power N1 ::)
That is correct.
With a no exile, no info, I took a risk and didn't investigate
Yes. As a rule, scum tends to overestimate the amount of danger they are in.Because scum wants to get to LyLo and sees e as their most disposable member. That second part is why I think it's more likely that iguana is scum; there aren't many scumteams I can think up where the sacrifice is chosen to be e.Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
It's more likely that this claim is serving a dual purpose of giving e towncred and calling your Cop status (and thus IC status) into question. But it is certainly worth rereading once e has flipped, before deciding on the next exile.
So you think we were finding skum today, or at least that skum thought that we were finding skum today?
If I'm right then scum probably already suspects all of this. If I'm wrong then maybe someone can point out to me why that is. Too many people have been suspecting MiX/Didds and I figured maybe this will give them something to think about.Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
why would you say this?
Yes but not enough to do a mad sacrifice play while they’re currently bowligg by a perfect game…. Cmon faust.What do you think is going on?
Yes but not enough to do a mad sacrifice play while they’re currently bowligg by a perfect game…. Cmon faust.What do you think is going on?
If I'm right then scum probably already suspects all of this. If I'm wrong then maybe someone can point out to me why that is. Too many people have been suspecting MiX/Didds and I figured maybe this will give them something to think about.Ok well. Swowl is a Cop (probably 1-shot and has investigated EFHW N1. MiX and Didds are Masons. Scum is among the remaining players.
why would you say this?
I thought the masonry was you and MiX. Which kind of blinded me to the possibility of MiX and Didds. You might be underestimating the clarity that knowing your own role gives you.
If they are masons, that makes MiX’s behavior eod look a lot better. But it takes always the main reason I was trusting you :(
Sorry! This was on purpose. I just expected Didds to always be townread and faust to not.Ha! The thing is though, Masons tend to look like scum. They are a group of people that has alignment information on one another and does not want to get each other exiled.
Sorry! This was on purpose. I just expected Didds to always be townread and faust to not.Ha! The thing is though, Masons tend to look like scum. They are a group of people that has alignment information on one another and does not want to get each other exiled.
Also I feel like I suspected you too much for this to really work.
One nice thing is that it’s no longer possible that iguana and e are both town. Which means the scum team can’t, for instance, be Didds/MiX/faust.
But faust could be scum who figured out the masonry and decided to put if for town cred.
MIX, what makes you trust faust here?
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
Well you jumped the order in the massclaim, so don't you complain about me!
+ basically told scum "don't claim UB"
Am I up for claims?
Are we still even doing that now the game is solved?
Yes. I have also been voting e for a brief moment during D2, before annoyingly deciding to go for gkrieg instead.
Could you have tried to sheep me instead? At least attempt to?MiXy, I wish I could trust you. Alas. My vote stays where it is.At the time I wasn't seeing the potential for Masons.
:'(
Well I thought only Swowl was onto it anyway. So I guess it's fine.
faust's case does assume I somehow knew MiX and Didds were masons, which is not the caseWhere do I assume that?
+ basically told scum "don't claim UB"
What...? MiX said that after you claimed and it doesn't have anything to do with why I think you're scum.+ basically told scum "don't claim UB"
Here
Also, even more suspicious of faust.
Claiming masons for MiX/Didds is MVP play right there... If scum win (and faust is scum)
Good morning! 6 pages! It’s gonna make me a minute…
What...? MiX said that after you claimed and it doesn't have anything to do with why I think you're scum.+ basically told scum "don't claim UB"
Here
Also, even more suspicious of faust.
Claiming masons for MiX/Didds is MVP play right there... If scum win (and faust is scum)
If me, faust and Didds are scum...then I planned to claim masons with one of them from D1. Just read it.
This was not directed at you, but at MiX.What...? MiX said that after you claimed and it doesn't have anything to do with why I think you're scum.+ basically told scum "don't claim UB"
Here
Ok, true. Jumping around on mobile and conflating/mixing things up.
But the idea that I am telling alleged partners not to claim UB is absolutely in contradiction to the idea that I am scum claiming a cop result against iguana.
If I were scum doing something like that you know it would have been discussed at night
Good morning! 6 pages! It’s gonna make me a minute…
Welcome! I claimed already by the way. Faust kinda tied my hands though :P
But to be fair (to be fhar..)
to be fahrrrrrr (love that show)
Good morning! 6 pages! It’s gonna make me a minute…
Welcome! I claimed already by the way. Faust kinda tied my hands though :P
I was always going to wait for you, by virtue of not wanting to make your head explode generally and specifically.
Are we going to do the rest of the claims or is it a bad idea?
Has Swowl claimed cop or was that just Faust’s solve?
Are we going to do the rest of the claims or is it a bad idea?
Has Swowl claimed cop or was that just Faust’s solve?
Faust's guess
Haha, I am living in my own little world, aren't I?
Haha, I am living in my own little world, aren't I?
But did you go back and read iguana?How would that help me overcome my scumread on you? Because he's so obviously scum? If it's that obvious then why did you check him in the first place?
Ok I’m sold. With a towncore of MiX/Didds/faust from where I’m sitting I just need to figure out two more townies. I can add Swowl if I trust faust.
So that leaves e, iguana, mathdude, and Jimmmmm as 3 town and a scum.
So it’s probably Jim or iguana.
vote: e
But did you go back and read iguana?How would that help me overcome my scumread on you? Because he's so obviously scum? If it's that obvious then why did you check him in the first place?
-snip-.
Was not expecting a whole history.Looking at Faust again.
The anticipation is killing me
Don't wait up. I'm not finishing until I get some sleep
Still holding my breath.
Ok, so, this post is going to be kind of a doozy but here goes.
I believe you voted me / are still scum reading because you believe that I fabricated a vote on faust as a sort of scum tactic to see if anyone else was interested in voting him / to get rid of him / whatever.
But the real reason I voted faust is much more complicated than that and is related to like every game of mafia I've ever played.
I actually was thinking the two of you were partners doing a little partner bussing dance.
The whole history lesson is a bit compelling to pull me off that narrative, I will stick to just faust being scum
On the other hand....I used to think it was faust and gkrieg and Galzria and Ashersky and Lalight and Robz that were all really really good and he was up there with them, but I now think he's the best, hands down.
Who decided to NK lalight is still to be determined and someone who views them as strong town is a as compelling an argument as we have.
In the end, I think either you or faust could still be scum, leaning more towards faust, less toward both of you
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Following up on this post of mine finally. Sorry about the delay. (And yes, I'm at a computer and have a lot to reply to. This will be a wall post!)
I had sort of ignored iguana D1, since I had only played 1 other game with him (Oz), and wanted to focus more on people I had played multiple games with, in order to get a little more info about how to read him. I was scum-reading him off-and-on last game, and I think that's just that his playstyle will get read that way to me (the same way I will, by default, think MiX, faust, and a few others not in this game are just scummy by the way they post D1 of games). Again, I'm becoming more aware of this bias, and trying to take it into account in learning how to read people.
Back on D1...
A few RVS votes/discussion early, thenI did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
I don't like the excuse for not wanting to vote MiX. Then, I get that it's D1 and we don't know much, but "saltiness" doesn't seem like a good reason to jump on a vote.
This post:For all the discussion of us not being RVS, the weekend start we've had feels very RVSy even for a normal game.gets townpoints. This is some of the most useful stuff I think he's posted, and it was very early D1.
Mathdude's comments hereYou don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
remind me a bit of when he OMGUSed me in the last game here. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20798.msg875111#msg875111)
It has that same attitude of scumreading someone for reading the game differently than you. He was town there, so for right now I'm reading it as Math is town again and would want to blend in more if he was scum.
Joth and Jimmm are my biggest unknowns this game.
I vaguely remember Jim as someone who played occasionally, didn't post much, but had a reputation for being good at finding the scums with short, decisive posts. I don't remember if I've ever read a scum Jim game though...
Joth I've seen as mod and I did some reading into his old games already, but I don't know his scum meta either.
@Joth, could you point me in the direction of a scum game you are proud of?This looks like an easy way to avoid committing to doing much useful stuff D1 - something scum would want to do, as long as it looks like an exile will actually happen.Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.
For me personally finding partner interactions is too hard without a single flip and it's a sort of folly to try. That sort of things lends itself to confirmation bias easily.
Now we get into some more of the good stuff!Maybe it's a poor choice of words, but this case is definitely not "persuasive". This is a good excuse to jump on a wagon (e provided a flimsy reason to vote me, why not jump on and see what happens?). But it's not persuasive, by any means. Scum!iguana makes it seem like there's more of a case on me than there really is.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdudeyeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.
Sure. So I will read Joth now.
Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
-snip-
The "Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum" is something I'll come back to later with iguana, and part of why I think he's scum.
Otherwise, in that post, he's all over the map, commenting about joth, but not really saying anything useful for us to use for or against in the future.-snip-In his re-read on MiX, he's almost fully focused on how MiX reads me, and switches his read on me, then ignores commenting on a read on me. This fixation on how things relate to me is not fully founded at this point (I had not yet become a real viable wagon until almost the end of D1... even though I had a few votes on me earlier, there wasn't much to them).
(long post of his re-read on MiX)Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
I believe I replied to this thought back on D1, but this was late enough in the day, a policy exile for not showing up would probably have been worse than no-exile (unless of course Swowl ended up flipping scum). We actually had relevant thoughts/reads from many people on a few different wagons, so switching to a lurker with almost no info on people's reads would be something scum would want.-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
This was an OMGUS reply. And hedging on "especially scummy if Jim is town" already sounds scummy, but adding "which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet" sounds more like "I know he's town, but I can't say that here".
He then digs down and repeats these thoughts in his next post, arguing for why he's tunneling so much on me, because it's almost all that e and gkrieg had done (in their few contributions to the game, even though there were no real reasons given)... and since he was reading them, and MiX, therefore of course it would all connect back to me.Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faustLast thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust.
I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.
That's a lot of people he doesn't like the look of and doesn't really trust. It's one thing to not be townreading a lot of people D1. But this looks like throwing shade on a lot of people, and seeing what will stick.
On to D2...
At the start, he is focused a lot on why people did or did not vote me. This fixation actually makes sense here, since I was one of the potentially viable wagons EoD1.This quote and his previous post look like just trying to start something, where nothing needed to be started. Scum trying to build up trouble start of D2 maybe?Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.
It's not that no one could TR you but I do want to know where he's coming from on said town readVote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
These posts just came out of nowhere, in my opinion. He had been so focused EoD1 with who was voting for whom, and not voting with people he thought was scummy. He had been scum-reading me a fair amount now. And I believe at this point, I was the only one voting faust, and he jumps on to maybe start a wagon. This is inconsistent with his earlier play this game.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
It doesn't have to be both! Trust me, I can be town and also be super detrimental. That is most likely the case here.
At any rate, I wasn't sheeping you, and actually I had no idea you were even voting faust.
I really honestly believe that you can't write a good case against faust. He has played in near every game I've played in since 2015, and I don't think I've ever been able to read him accurately. Mostly I find him to be towny even when he is scum. Last game I trusted that read and lost.
This game, I am not feeling the case against Jim at all. EFHW seemed scummy at first but has largely come back from that. I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town. I'm least sure about Joth, but a large part of that is just PoE from my other townreads.
So those are the major wagons that we've had, and I don't feel great about any of them. So it begs the question, if all of those people are town (possible), who is scum? Probably someone who is playing quite well. Hence, the vote on faust, who I think always plays well as scum.
You can call that grasping at straws if you want. But I have certainly put thought into it.
Fair enough to say he wasn't sheeping me. Maybe I got over-reactive at that point. Like I said earlier, I was planning to follow up that post with a re-read on you and likely a vote on you (which is what this is now!) And part of the reason I'm thinking that is you are all-of-a-sudden now changing your mind on me. "I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town". Done with the argument, and just trying to deflect the attention, so I stop focusing on you? If you town-read me now, maybe I'll ignore you?
Vote: iguana
When I had posted 2 days ago about iguana sheeping me, I was definitely under the mindset that he had been building up in scumminess throughout the game, and I'd have a big case. But now that I've gone through all his posts, even with a lean on thinking he's scum, they aren't quite as bad as my initial gut read seemed to think they are (and I fully expect pushback on a few fo my comments). However, I still don't like a bunch of what he said, and will leave my vote there for now. I'll see how he responds.
PPE: 13!! (I'll go look at them now)
To be honest, in the crazy world I live in right now convincing myself faust is scum, I don't really care to prove iguana is scum
And a large portion of my initial read on iguana was entirely based on the premise that he was scum with you [faust]
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
I stupidly brought up the mass claim yesterday, ensuring that scum would plan for it overnight. Which makes something like “if a massclaim looks like it’s a go, I’m going to immediately pre-empt it by claiming cop” a much more likely scum QT scenario.
Ok, faust has me convinced. Though I’m really gonna feel like a dick if e is actually a cop.
I stupidly brought up the mass claim yesterday, ensuring that scum would plan for it overnight. Which makes something like “if a massclaim looks like it’s a go, I’m going to immediately pre-empt it by claiming cop” a much more likely scum QT scenario.
Ok, faust has me convinced. Though I’m really gonna feel like a dick if e is actually a cop.
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
There isn't room for swowl to be a cop.
Why are you convinced of that?
Right now we are likely sitting at
ECMTTT
There is totally room to flip those Ts to:
ECMMMT
ECCCMT
Both much less likely.
But really, the narrative you created makes it me vs swowl for cop claims, what happens when I flip 1-shot cop? Swowl is scum too?
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
There isn't room for swowl to be a cop.
Why are you convinced of that?
Right now we are likely sitting at
ECMTTT
There is totally room to flip those Ts to:
ECMMMT
ECCCMT
Both much less likely.
But really, the narrative you created makes it me vs swowl for cop claims, what happens when I flip 1-shot cop? Swowl is scum too?
The two masons has to be MMM though, right?
Read my posts before the mass claim? Do they feel like scum that thought through exactly how they would claim the next day?I love the self-report. "Actually, I didn't yet know that I was going to claim Cop."
Read my posts before the mass claim? Do they feel like scum that thought through exactly how they would claim the next day?I love the self-report. "Actually, I didn't yet know that I was going to claim Cop."
Read my posts before the mass claim? Do they feel like scum that thought through exactly how they would claim the next day?I love the self-report. "Actually, I didn't yet know that I was going to claim Cop."
Read my posts before the mass claim? Do they feel like scum that thought through exactly how they would claim the next day?I love the self-report. "Actually, I didn't yet know that I was going to claim Cop."
Haha, it is true I didn't know if I would claim full cop or 1-shot cop.
I was very tempted to lie and make up a N1 target
Read my posts before the mass claim? Do they feel like scum that thought through exactly how they would claim the next day?I love the self-report. "Actually, I didn't yet know that I was going to claim Cop."
Haha, it is true I didn't know if I would claim full cop or 1-shot cop.
I was very tempted to lie and make up a N1 target
Oh? Can you talk about what ultimately lead to your decision?
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
It’s the timing.
Which is more likely— town jumped the claim order because they didn’t want any more claims to happen than necessary or scum jumped the claim order to avoid being backed into a corner and to give their cop claim more cred?
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
It’s the timing.
Which is more likely— town jumped the claim order because they didn’t want any more claims to happen than necessary or scum jumped the claim order to avoid being backed into a corner and to give their cop claim more cred?
But if there are town who make his role unlikely/impossible, they’d say something, right?
Yeah, but you were also convinced I was scum?
Looking at Faust lining up both our exiles... I would say Faust is e's partner here.I'm not following. Without my intervention, you would be exiled, (presumably) flip town, and then e gets exiled.
I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
So I guess it's e/iguana/X?
Should this change the order in which we exile them?
I get Faust's case on me and I have lurked as scum before because I was overwhelmed as scum before. But actually I got over that and I was really really active as scum in Rewind and Breaking Bad, both of my last two games.
This game I felt overwhelmed because it's based on a board game I don't know how to play well and everyone was talking about how to do it. So I lurked because I really didn't know what to add.
Faust's case on me isn't bad as in he is scummy for making it, it's just out of date.
Sorry it took so long to respond to it. IRL sucked for a bit there.
I can't believe that D1 of this game is now approaching 1200 posts. Has there ever been a game like this before? This is so so crazy.
I'm seriously getting exhausted with it. I'm starting to feel like scum just wins here because everyone looks the same.
I mean even if we do get a scum flip, then we have to go back and look at 1200 posts of stuff to figure out their partners. So crazy.
I feel demoralized.
my order would be
Joth/Iguana
E!
Math
MiX/Faust
Jim/WCD
Swowl
But yes, if we did do it, I would be fine with Iguana being first. Though you suggesting it makes me slightly weary.
Results: I'm a cop! Actually a 1 shot cop..... who didn't feel like using my ability N1.
And we're supposed to take this seriously?
Results are only results when they are true.
I mean you hadn't even decided what to claim at the moment you were typing it out. Did you just realize 1 shot was way more likely with EFHW's flip after the fact?
We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
I mean you hadn't even decided what to claim at the moment you were typing it out. Did you just realize 1 shot was way more likely with EFHW's flip after the fact?
I see you did some setup analysis in the scum QT N0. Not surprising.
Rereading end of D2... I was going to make a long multi-post quote, but I'm breaking it up for easier reference and reading.We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
Joth later said (haven't gone to look in D3 posts yet for where) that maybe it wasn't a good idea to post this yesterday, as it got scum thinking about what to claim. Not sure the validity of that, as I'm sure most people (scum and town) had already been thinking about when massclaim time comes... as evidenced by even e stating D3 that he wasn't sure whether to claim 1-shot cop or full cop, and decided to claim the 1-shot.
I'm so suspicious of everyone on this wagon, because I literally just could not see the case at all. I think we 100% exile on the gkrieg wagon tomorrow. There is no way that wagon isn't riddled with scum. Gonna say 2/3.
Rereading end of D2... I was going to make a long multi-post quote, but I'm breaking it up for easier reference and reading.We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
Joth later said (haven't gone to look in D3 posts yet for where) that maybe it wasn't a good idea to post this yesterday, as it got scum thinking about what to claim. Not sure the validity of that, as I'm sure most people (scum and town) had already been thinking about when massclaim time comes... as evidenced by even e stating D3 that he wasn't sure whether to claim 1-shot cop or full cop, and decided to claim the 1-shot.
I disagree. In an open setup like this one, scum thinks about what town roles may or may not exist immediately and associated ideas for fake claims immediately.
And if anyone thinks scum wouldn't have seen the writing on the wall that a D3 mass claim would come up after not catching any scum D1 or D2 you haven't played mafia on this site very long
Rereading end of D2... I was going to make a long multi-post quote, but I'm breaking it up for easier reference and reading.We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
Joth later said (haven't gone to look in D3 posts yet for where) that maybe it wasn't a good idea to post this yesterday, as it got scum thinking about what to claim. Not sure the validity of that, as I'm sure most people (scum and town) had already been thinking about when massclaim time comes... as evidenced by even e stating D3 that he wasn't sure whether to claim 1-shot cop or full cop, and decided to claim the 1-shot.
I disagree. In an open setup like this one, scum thinks about what town roles may or may not exist immediately and associated ideas for fake claims immediately.
And if anyone thinks scum wouldn't have seen the writing on the wall that a D3 mass claim would come up after not catching any scum D1 or D2 you haven't played mafia on this site very long
Rereading end of D2... I was going to make a long multi-post quote, but I'm breaking it up for easier reference and reading.We should strongly consider a massclaim start of day 3.
We'll be at 9 players, 3 scum (barring successful protection) which means we need 5/6 town to agree to get scum exiled without a bus. We're going to need maximum information to have any chance.
Joth later said (haven't gone to look in D3 posts yet for where) that maybe it wasn't a good idea to post this yesterday, as it got scum thinking about what to claim. Not sure the validity of that, as I'm sure most people (scum and town) had already been thinking about when massclaim time comes... as evidenced by even e stating D3 that he wasn't sure whether to claim 1-shot cop or full cop, and decided to claim the 1-shot.
I disagree. In an open setup like this one, scum thinks about what town roles may or may not exist immediately and associated ideas for fake claims immediately.
And if anyone thinks scum wouldn't have seen the writing on the wall that a D3 mass claim would come up after not catching any scum D1 or D2 you haven't played mafia on this site very long
Let's go with my best read from D2 that I should never have abandoned and (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877661#msg877661)
Vote: iguana
Curious. Was this a gamble?
I feel that I need to reread. The gkrieg flip calls a few convictions into question.
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
Though we don't necessarily want to go for iguana next. There is a nonzero chance that he's town.
but why does E! jump the gun like this?
The issue I have with a mass claim is that if someone had a skum result, they would just say it at this point. And as that is the only thing that really makes it super viable, I can't decide if it would be better to wait or not.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for today
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for todaySo who did you investigate N1?
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
I was wondering who would bring that up first.
I am just a lowly one shot cop.
This is a fun exercise to see who believes me and who doesn't.
I mean....Yes but iguana is the exile that scum wants us to do, probably because he's the least important role in their operation.
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
This is a fun exercise to see who believes me and who doesn't.
I don't see this being a comment town makes right after admitting they initially claimed cop and then just changed their claim to 1-shot cop.
Welcome back Ahab. Glad you're having fun hunting down the great green iguana.
One thing about all my play today.
If you think I am scum, then you assume I talked with my partners about a claim. As a logical conclusion to that, we decided that I was going to claim 1-shot cop with a scum result on iguana.
I then went rogue and claimed full cop and then quickly back tracked to 1 shot.
Except... If I did allegedly discuss 1-shot vs full on my alleged scum QT, you can bet I would have been talked off the ledge and done the "safe" claim.
The only way I play mycousinclaim this poorly is in the moment, figure it out as I go. Which, after receiving my result moments before the start of day is exactly what I did
No, if you are town you claim your role and your result. If you are scum, you have to make something up and that is where there is room for error.
Why on earth do you lie as town in a semi open setup where your claim has bearing on how likely everyone else's claims are and vice versa? Lying about being cop as town has the potential to create, EG, a counterclaim from the actual cop in a CCC situation or just produce so many letters that it's a 1% chance to occur situation. So at best you are making people believe your lie but then they exile another town PR by mistake.
But if you are scum, that's a good outcome to get that counterclaim, so faking full cop is a fine play.
This is not a setup where town lies about their role because they're all related.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for today
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for today
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for today
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
Is a 1-shot cop a cop?
Anyway, I'm going to bed. Hopefully we move forward with this in some meaningful way tomorrow. I'm ready for anything at this point and I'm not letting Ahab get a free scum double LyLo out of a bogus fake claim.
Happy October, everyone! It’s the season of candy corn pumpkins!! We need ADK’s stabby kitten avatar to ring in the season!
I’m catching up, but would like to hear some from others (Swowl, Jimmm, MiX).
Happy October, everyone! It’s the season of candy corn pumpkins!! We need ADK’s stabby kitten avatar to ring in the season!
I’m catching up, but would like to hear some from others (Swowl, Jimmm, MiX).
Happy October, everyone! It’s the season of candy corn pumpkins!! We need ADK’s stabby kitten avatar to ring in the season!
I’m catching up, but would like to hear some from others (Swowl, Jimmm, MiX).
I'm waiting for the massclaim to end.
Yes but not enough to do a mad sacrifice play while they’re currently bowligg by a perfect game…. Cmon faust.What do you think is going on?
Either e is a cop and iguana is scum or e is scum and iguana is town. Scum might be scared enough to take the 1v1 here.
Hmm, the more I think about it, we really would never exile e if we went for iguana now and he flipped scum. But I also know that if we went for e and he flipped scum.
What if this is the world’s greatest Xenatos gambit and faust, e, and iguana are all scum? And it’s like in those heist movies where you think the thieves are caught but then the cop who has caught them is just another thief?
I guess this is a long way of saying I like what you’re saying but I don’t trust you.
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
e, why iguana instead of me or math or faust?
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
I could definitely see faust trying something like this... I'm not sure I know iguana or e well enough to say about them.I feel like people seriously misunderstand my scum game. I'm not about big wacky plans that might just work out. I shoot down such plans when my partners express them. I like to keep my options open as much as possible, and when I do follow a plan, I always try to have enough plausible deniability so that I can switch gears if I feel that is necessary. The plan proposed above... is none of that.
Anyway, I'm going to bed. Hopefully we move forward with this in some meaningful way tomorrow. I'm ready for anything at this point and I'm not letting Ahab get a free scum double LyLo out of a bogus fake claim.
It's only double lylo because iguana knows he is a guaranteed exile tomorrow after my flip if I do get exiled today
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
This is a good summary, although i think all the factors pointed out by math right before this point much more to my being town. My argument is admittedly a terrible one - I played this so poorly I could not be scum - but it is true. No way my scum teammates wouldn't talk me off the ledge from my crazy schemes.
I just ask you to take the risk on town!e playing poorly and exile iguana based on my result
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
This is a good summary, although i think all the factors pointed out by math right before this point much more to my being town. My argument is admittedly a terrible one - I played this so poorly I could not be scum - but it is true. No way my scum teammates wouldn't talk me off the ledge from my crazy schemes.
I just ask you to take the risk on town!e playing poorly and exile iguana based on my result
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
This is a good summary, although i think all the factors pointed out by math right before this point much more to my being town. My argument is admittedly a terrible one - I played this so poorly I could not be scum - but it is true. No way my scum teammates wouldn't talk me off the ledge from my crazy schemes.
I just ask you to take the risk on town!e playing poorly and exile iguana based on my result
This argument almost works. Sucks that math's scum.
The simplest explanation is that e is scum and iguana is town.
Faust’s idea that they’re both scum is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
There’s obviously no world where they’re both town.
And if e is town and iguana is scum, well it’s not the end of the world. We have a guaranteed scum exile tomorrow, and e was a 1-shot cop anyway.
This is a good summary, although i think all the factors pointed out by math right before this point much more to my being town. My argument is admittedly a terrible one - I played this so poorly I could not be scum - but it is true. No way my scum teammates wouldn't talk me off the ledge from my crazy schemes.
I just ask you to take the risk on town!e playing poorly and exile iguana based on my result
This argument almost works. Sucks that math's scum.
I don't follow. Math could totally be scum. Not sure what the correlation is here
The main reason I think WCD is scummy is how she has maintained her scum read on EFHW. Opens up with a casual EFHW vote, then builds on it, explains why it makes sense this game, etc., etc. But then, when Joth votes for EFHW, WCD asks for additional rationale.vote: EFHW
Why’s that?
Why is that? Why would town who has spent the majority of their day thinking about how EFHW is scum this game need EXTRA reasons to vote for EFHW. Or question why other people have "seen the light" and joined the EFHW wagon. It just feels....off.
Then D2 there is this:Didds, what happened to your scumread on EFHW?
Its still there, but I am trying to be fair to her...I think I find her scummy because she is cagey. I am so open that I grapple with close to the vest folks. But, she was one of the few people trying to get an exile off at the EOD, and she was so willing to do it that I don't know that it was scummy. Her wagon was 4 yesterday and never got an higher so I don't think there is enough town will to make that happen today. So, I have decided to just wait and see on her. Same with Joth.
This feels extremely scummy to me. More specifically, it feels like scum who had moved on from her fake scum read on EFHW but then when reminded about it kept it alive, because you never know when you need to get that mis-exile in. Basically, I don't buy WCD's read on EFHW as being a genuine town reading another player as scum.
vote: WCD
vote: faust
Hmmm
2.5 hours to go and gkrieg is acting like wants to be exiled.
At least, not joining a viable alternative
It's also very clear that 2.7's top 'scumread' at the end of the day was WCD. So if he's town, why not cop your top scum read on WCD?
What makes more sense is that 2.7 didn't want to do a false guilty of WCD EITHER because he felt she would be an easy misexile for LyLo that he needed to keep around OR because the team had figured out that MiX/Didds were masons overnight and he knew that a false guilty on her would lead to a CC and his exile.
So whether 2.7 had figured out masons ahead of time or not, it makes more sense as scum that he would choose me as the cop target and not his actual stated top scum read.
So iguana, that last post feels like you believe you know who my alleged partners are.
Who are they?
It's also very clear that 2.7's top 'scumread' at the end of the day was WCD. So if he's town, why not cop your top scum read on WCD?
What makes more sense is that 2.7 didn't want to do a false guilty of WCD EITHER because he felt she would be an easy misexile for LyLo that he needed to keep around OR because the team had figured out that MiX/Didds were masons overnight and he knew that a false guilty on her would lead to a CC and his exile.
So whether 2.7 had figured out masons ahead of time or not, it makes more sense as scum that he would choose me as the cop target and not his actual stated top scum read.
He found out me and Didds were masons when faust claimed that for us.
It's also very clear that 2.7's top 'scumread' at the end of the day was WCD. So if he's town, why not cop your top scum read on WCD?
What makes more sense is that 2.7 didn't want to do a false guilty of WCD EITHER because he felt she would be an easy misexile for LyLo that he needed to keep around OR because the team had figured out that MiX/Didds were masons overnight and he knew that a false guilty on her would lead to a CC and his exile.
So whether 2.7 had figured out masons ahead of time or not, it makes more sense as scum that he would choose me as the cop target and not his actual stated top scum read.
He found out me and Didds were masons when faust claimed that for us.
It's also very clear that 2.7's top 'scumread' at the end of the day was WCD. So if he's town, why not cop your top scum read on WCD?
What makes more sense is that 2.7 didn't want to do a false guilty of WCD EITHER because he felt she would be an easy misexile for LyLo that he needed to keep around OR because the team had figured out that MiX/Didds were masons overnight and he knew that a false guilty on her would lead to a CC and his exile.
So whether 2.7 had figured out masons ahead of time or not, it makes more sense as scum that he would choose me as the cop target and not his actual stated top scum read.
He found out me and Didds were masons when faust claimed that for us.
Speaking of this, why does town claim masons for you?
Really liking all of the gkrieg posts, they feel very town.
-snip-
It's also very clear that 2.7's top 'scumread' at the end of the day was WCD. So if he's town, why not cop your top scum read on WCD?
What makes more sense is that 2.7 didn't want to do a false guilty of WCD EITHER because he felt she would be an easy misexile for LyLo that he needed to keep around OR because the team had figured out that MiX/Didds were masons overnight and he knew that a false guilty on her would lead to a CC and his exile.
So whether 2.7 had figured out masons ahead of time or not, it makes more sense as scum that he would choose me as the cop target and not his actual stated top scum read.
He found out me and Didds were masons when faust claimed that for us.
Speaking of this, why does town claim masons for you?
Cause faust had solved the game and he was itching to tell us the solve.
Really liking all of the gkrieg posts, they feel very town.
-snip-
Okay, just found this. It is totally scummy that 2.7 goes from "gkrieg feels very town" to his weak noncommittal final comment on gkrieg that is setting him up to be able to vote gkrieg if necessary.
so, read joth, faust, math, MiX, LL, and iguana. From that group I would say:
more scummy: faust, iguana
more towny: joth, math, MiX
I am suspicious of my fellow lurkers, especially because of the no exile on D1, but I like my vote where it is at for now. Remind me to read EFHW, Swowl, Didds, and gkrieg later. I don't need to read Jimmmmm, I am confident in my D1 read that he is town.
And to be honest, there is some PoE confirmation bias that makes me think faust is scum. Looking at 3 scum in 10.
I think joth, jimmmm, and MiX are town, 3/7 removing them.
If iguana v faust is town v scum, then it is 1 scum (faust) in that group of 5 with two more in {EFHW, Swowl, Didds, and gkrieg, math}
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
Really liking all of the gkrieg posts, they feel very town.
-snip-
Okay, just found this. It is totally scummy that 2.7 goes from "gkrieg feels very town" to his weak noncommittal final comment on gkrieg that is setting him up to be able to vote gkrieg if necessary.
Yes, I would have hammered gkrieg for an exile. Did I want to? No.
Was gkrieg flailing around looking for random last minute exiles that did him no good? Yes.
Did I want him to stop that and vote Didds? Yes.
Grasping at straws here iguana.
Joth is being really self righteous : ( Also scum often claims town after an exile because it can throw off exactly these kinds of twilight discussions. So there is absolutely still a chance that gkrieg is scum.
Joth is being really self righteous : ( Also scum often claims town after an exile because it can throw off exactly these kinds of twilight discussions. So there is absolutely still a chance that gkrieg is scum.
Oh yeah, you would never set up another mis-exile....
Joth is being really self righteous : ( Also scum often claims town after an exile because it can throw off exactly these kinds of twilight discussions. So there is absolutely still a chance that gkrieg is scum.
Oh yeah, you would never set up another mis-exile....
Joth was making me feel like shit! I HATE misexiling and I do it ALL THE TIME. This is literally why I quit playing!! Because I am bad at finding scum! And joth was sitting there rubbing it in my face in the thread! Setting up his misexile? That is total BS
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
funny timing. I was just gonna ask E/Joth what they thought.
I am factoring in the EFHW exile rn. one sec.
What more information are you asking for that I haven't provided?
A better reason?
Sarcasm - I am just frustrated with this situation. I genuinely believe that I have a solid concept in Math v Joth. I also very much believe that Math has been towny in their responses since I posted my skum read on them, and Joth has been skummy in their defense of my push.
I also get that I am clearly tunneling and I am seriously trying to not do it, but every freekin time I go back to re reading I just end up back at joth.
I have been unfair in my frustration regarding you and Joth being suspicious of my switch from Math to Joth. For Joth, it is hard, because obviously I am reading them as skum. For you, it is frustrating because I feel like I am wasting time trying to convince a TR of mine that I am town.
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math, which just makes me feel more strongly about it being one of Joth/Math. Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town. Which is why, blaming myself too for not moving earlier on day 1, we need to freeking exile on day 1.
I will take the weekend to do an overhaul and see what I can see. But like I can chalk this up to one of the most frustrating games I have ever played (maybe second to BSG S1)
Vote Count 1.Final
Jimmmmm (2): mathdude, jotheonah
mathdude (5): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkreig13, Jimmmmm, EFHW
MiX (1): LaLight
jotheonah (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl,
Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive, it took 7 to exile.
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
funny timing. I was just gonna ask E/Joth what they thought.
I am factoring in the EFHW exile rn. one sec.
okay so this is literally the first time that Swowl EVER mentions 2.7 and it's on D3. They are totally scum together and have been using a strategy of hard ignoring each other in the thread while letting townies and probably one active scum fight things out.What more information are you asking for that I haven't provided?
A better reason?
Sarcasm - I am just frustrated with this situation. I genuinely believe that I have a solid concept in Math v Joth. I also very much believe that Math has been towny in their responses since I posted my skum read on them, and Joth has been skummy in their defense of my push.
I also get that I am clearly tunneling and I am seriously trying to not do it, but every freekin time I go back to re reading I just end up back at joth.
I have been unfair in my frustration regarding you and Joth being suspicious of my switch from Math to Joth. For Joth, it is hard, because obviously I am reading them as skum. For you, it is frustrating because I feel like I am wasting time trying to convince a TR of mine that I am town.
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math, which just makes me feel more strongly about it being one of Joth/Math. Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town. Which is why, blaming myself too for not moving earlier on day 1, we need to freeking exile on day 1.
I will take the weekend to do an overhaul and see what I can see. But like I can chalk this up to one of the most frustrating games I have ever played (maybe second to BSG S1)
I've already pointed out Swowl's super scummy "This is the most frustrating game I've ever played" exaggeration. Now we can add the "Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town" as a scumslip for the fact that all of the active players he is reading are town and he's having trouble making fake scumreads on a bunch of townies due to his strategy of ignoring his scumpartner 2.7.
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
I agree with IguanaI had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
Very good. I agree about the mass claim, and I have also solved the game.
So let's start with iguana
my order would be
Joth/Iguana
E!
Math
MiX/Faust
Jim/WCD
Swowl
But yes, if we did do it, I would be fine with Iguana being first. Though you suggesting it makes me slightly weary.
I mean....
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
funny timing. I was just gonna ask E/Joth what they thought.
I am factoring in the EFHW exile rn. one sec.
okay so this is literally the first time that Swowl EVER mentions 2.7 and it's on D3. They are totally scum together and have been using a strategy of hard ignoring each other in the thread while letting townies and probably one active scum fight things out.What more information are you asking for that I haven't provided?
A better reason?
Sarcasm - I am just frustrated with this situation. I genuinely believe that I have a solid concept in Math v Joth. I also very much believe that Math has been towny in their responses since I posted my skum read on them, and Joth has been skummy in their defense of my push.
I also get that I am clearly tunneling and I am seriously trying to not do it, but every freekin time I go back to re reading I just end up back at joth.
I have been unfair in my frustration regarding you and Joth being suspicious of my switch from Math to Joth. For Joth, it is hard, because obviously I am reading them as skum. For you, it is frustrating because I feel like I am wasting time trying to convince a TR of mine that I am town.
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math, which just makes me feel more strongly about it being one of Joth/Math. Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town. Which is why, blaming myself too for not moving earlier on day 1, we need to freeking exile on day 1.
I will take the weekend to do an overhaul and see what I can see. But like I can chalk this up to one of the most frustrating games I have ever played (maybe second to BSG S1)
I've already pointed out Swowl's super scummy "This is the most frustrating game I've ever played" exaggeration. Now we can add the "Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town" as a scumslip for the fact that all of the active players he is reading are town and he's having trouble making fake scumreads on a bunch of townies due to his strategy of ignoring his scumpartner 2.7.
Just like you ignored faust! Remember! Like I pointed out in my original case on you!
How likely do you think it is that all scum were on the gkrieg wagon?
Interested in Joth/Swowl thoughts on this question
funny timing. I was just gonna ask E/Joth what they thought.
I am factoring in the EFHW exile rn. one sec.
okay so this is literally the first time that Swowl EVER mentions 2.7 and it's on D3. They are totally scum together and have been using a strategy of hard ignoring each other in the thread while letting townies and probably one active scum fight things out.What more information are you asking for that I haven't provided?
A better reason?
Sarcasm - I am just frustrated with this situation. I genuinely believe that I have a solid concept in Math v Joth. I also very much believe that Math has been towny in their responses since I posted my skum read on them, and Joth has been skummy in their defense of my push.
I also get that I am clearly tunneling and I am seriously trying to not do it, but every freekin time I go back to re reading I just end up back at joth.
I have been unfair in my frustration regarding you and Joth being suspicious of my switch from Math to Joth. For Joth, it is hard, because obviously I am reading them as skum. For you, it is frustrating because I feel like I am wasting time trying to convince a TR of mine that I am town.
I feel like the GK alt wagon is a lazy af alternative that was brought up as an alt to Joth/Math, which just makes me feel more strongly about it being one of Joth/Math. Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town. Which is why, blaming myself too for not moving earlier on day 1, we need to freeking exile on day 1.
I will take the weekend to do an overhaul and see what I can see. But like I can chalk this up to one of the most frustrating games I have ever played (maybe second to BSG S1)
I've already pointed out Swowl's super scummy "This is the most frustrating game I've ever played" exaggeration. Now we can add the "Or we are just fucked and just everyone is town" as a scumslip for the fact that all of the active players he is reading are town and he's having trouble making fake scumreads on a bunch of townies due to his strategy of ignoring his scumpartner 2.7.
Just like you ignored faust! Remember! Like I pointed out in my original case on you!
Except you EXAGGERATED the extent to which I ignored faust! You BS posted that I had only four posts about faust when I am positive I talked to him more than just four posts! At the time it didn't bother me because I was being STUPID and I thought you were TOWNY. But now it's obvious you were scum and for some reason you felt I was an easy target!!
Blablabla.
To the town of you: stop interacting with scum. Obviously this makes e scum because he knows better.
(added bold for emphasis)Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Interested in hearing more about your faust vote. Seems very....random? I mean, you vote faust then just completely ignore both before and after. By my count, you have 4 posts interacting with faust prior to your vote and a single post after your "when you can't find scum its faust" post. Did you even look at faust or just felt like you could get some traction on faust because no one will take the time to reread everything he posted and you can build a wagon of people who start getting antsy when faust stays alive too long (thinking of the whole "If Robz is alive D4 he is scum" line of thinking, which I know faust has experienced as well)?
I don't know, your vote just doesn't sit well with me.
vote: iguana
Blablabla.
To the town of you: stop interacting with scum. Obviously this makes e scum because he knows better.
Joth is being really self righteous : ( Also scum often claims town after an exile because it can throw off exactly these kinds of twilight discussions. So there is absolutely still a chance that gkrieg is scum.
Oh yeah, you would never set up another mis-exile....
Joth was making me feel like shit! I HATE misexiling and I do it ALL THE TIME. This is literally why I quit playing!! Because I am bad at finding scum! And joth was sitting there rubbing it in my face in the thread! Setting up his misexile? That is total BS
Okay, I talk about/to faust in #198, #201, #229, #232, #314, #315, #316, #540, & #776 all before #811 where I voted faust and 2.7 jumped on me for it.
I should claim I guess.
I am a... Mason! dun dun dun.
Not really, I'm just a VT.
Jimmmmm has been super quiet today.
Do you buy that he saw the result and got excited??
Do you buy that he saw the result and got excited??
I haven't read that part yet haha. Sounds kinda sketchy though.
Sorry on brand with what?
Overall this is a good post, and if true the "I always lurk as scum" argument could be compelling. I did get a couple of scum pings from it though.
"2.7 tricked me D2 into still thinking he was town by backing off his Math scumread shortly after I announced that I also had backed off it."
Something about "2.7 tricked me" seems unnecessarily accusatory.
"I'm guessing that scum must have looked through my ISO last night and guessed from my active play that I was VT and decided that would make me a good person to try to incriminate."
Something about this seems ingenuine. It also seems like something of a contradiction to suggest that scum were able to figure out that he was a VT, but also didn't know his meta.
Regarding the item raised here first by Jimmmmm... iguana knowing his meta. Unfortunately, being aware of it, and then posting such, makes meta discussion (such as lurking when scum) less relevant. Once you say you're aware of it, you can more actively try to navigate it to your advantage.
Why on earth do you lie as town in a semi open setup where your claim has bearing on how likely everyone else's claims are and vice versa? Lying about being cop as town has the potential to create, EG, a counterclaim from the actual cop in a CCC situation or just produce so many letters that it's a 1% chance to occur situation. So at best you are making people believe your lie but then they exile another town PR by mistake.
But if you are scum, that's a good outcome to get that counterclaim, so faking full cop is a fine play.
This is not a setup where town lies about their role because they're all related.
So 2.7's EoD2 play is actually very scummy.
Vote Count 1.Final
Jimmmmm (2): mathdude, jotheonah
mathdude (5): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkreig13, Jimmmmm, EFHW
MiX (1): LaLight
jotheonah (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl,
Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive, it took 7 to exile.
The more I look back the more I think math is in fact scum.
One reason why math didn't get exiled D1, I colored the wagon just for fun, even if you flip red/green with iguana and me that wagon on math looks pretty towny and then has that single bus.
e, what were you trying to achieve by "stringing it along", but also immediately calling iguana scum and voting for him without providing much of a reason?
Also, when did you decide that iguana would be your target? Did you think much during the Night about what you might do with whatever result you got?
So 2.7's EoD2 play is actually very scummy.
This may be minor, but the word "actually" jumped out at me here. If iguana's Town, then he knows e is scum, so wouldn't be surprised to find scumminess. "Actually" sounds like he was pleasantly surprised to find scumminess, which is more in line with scum iguana and Town e.
Why on earth do you lie as town in a semi open setup where your claim has bearing on how likely everyone else's claims are and vice versa? Lying about being cop as town has the potential to create, EG, a counterclaim from the actual cop in a CCC situation or just produce so many letters that it's a 1% chance to occur situation. So at best you are making people believe your lie but then they exile another town PR by mistake.
But if you are scum, that's a good outcome to get that counterclaim, so faking full cop is a fine play.
This is not a setup where town lies about their role because they're all related.
This feels like a strawman.
Overall this is a good post, and if true the "I always lurk as scum" argument could be compelling. I did get a couple of scum pings from it though.
"2.7 tricked me D2 into still thinking he was town by backing off his Math scumread shortly after I announced that I also had backed off it."
Something about "2.7 tricked me" seems unnecessarily accusatory.
"I'm guessing that scum must have looked through my ISO last night and guessed from my active play that I was VT and decided that would make me a good person to try to incriminate."
Something about this seems ingenuine. It also seems like something of a contradiction to suggest that scum were able to figure out that he was a VT, but also didn't know his meta.
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to exile. Day 3 will end Wednesday, October 6, 2021, at 3:00 pm forum time.
Alright, Swowl. Thoughts on e and iguana?
E! I apologize cuz I am sure you have answered this, but what was the reasoning on checking II with your one shot?
Still think e's scum, faust?I am VLA and have to read.
It seems that the tides are turning against me. I will try to respond to everyone individually later today but for now maybe consider this?
Is it possible you are all underestimating the bravado of the guy who says he underestimates the danger he's in? And just how good of a position scum is in after they misexile me?
Given that all my allies seem to be abandoning me, doesn't it seem likely that the one without allies is also the one without partners?
e, what were you trying to achieve by "stringing it along", but also immediately calling iguana scum and voting for him without providing much of a reason?
Also, when did you decide that iguana would be your target? Did you think much during the Night about what you might do with whatever result you got?
I did not think much overnight about what I would do whatever the result. I had a short period of time between getting the result and the thread opening, and in that period is where I developed all my wonderful ideas. Immediately calling iguana scum was meant as a soft claim of sorts. The overconfidence was meant to spur reactions, then I would follow with my claim. Originally, the whole full cop/1-shot cop was meant to draw the NK N3 then end up not actually being as important since I was 1-shot. I decided that lying wasn't a good idea, so I would just claim "cop with a N2 result" and see who would press me for additional results, imagining that they might be scum. In my mind, I wasn't lying, I was withholding information. Which, yeah, not telling the full truth is a lie, especially because my intention was for people to imagine me as a full cop. I did want to claim before any sort of mass claim, the idea being that scum doesn't need any additional info, and town can use their PRs as they see fit, and I trust town to do what is right. At least what they think is right.
I put iguana down as an initial target at the start of the night with the thought to go back and rethink if I should target someone else. I didn't do that and just stayed on iguana.
On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for todaySo who did you investigate N1?
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
It’s the timing.
Which is more likely— town jumped the claim order because they didn’t want any more claims to happen than necessary or scum jumped the claim order to avoid being backed into a corner and to give their cop claim more cred?
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
It’s the timing.
Which is more likely— town jumped the claim order because they didn’t want any more claims to happen than necessary or scum jumped the claim order to avoid being backed into a corner and to give their cop claim more cred?
But if there are town who make his role unlikely/impossible, they’d say something, right?
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
I am inclined to believe e.
I’m not quite sure why others don’t. I need to reread to suss that out but I have to work and stuff first.
It’s the timing.
Which is more likely— town jumped the claim order because they didn’t want any more claims to happen than necessary or scum jumped the claim order to avoid being backed into a corner and to give their cop claim more cred?
But if there are town who make his role unlikely/impossible, they’d say something, right?
Thanks for posting that math, I was under the impression e's claim changed the scumteam's powers.
I guess I'll say that makes me trust him more.
I'll have to actually reread him and iguana, and look at the D1 VCA. I don't really feel like doing that though.
I mean you hadn't even decided what to claim at the moment you were typing it out. Did you just realize 1 shot was way more likely with EFHW's flip after the fact?
I see you did some setup analysis in the scum QT N0. Not surprising.
Yeah except this isnt exactly the first time I've played Asher++ and I read the gkrieg/Ash masons one where it all came down to bad analysis of how likely roles are to appear, so I just know this stuff a priori.
This is another reason we need to mass claim. To see how likely his role is to even exist in the first place. (Probably not, because he made it up)
Okay caught up. Before I say anything else, and before we exile anyone, I want to hear Swowl's reply.
unvote
I said in a recent post what I believe scum!e's and town!e's opinion would be to continuing the massclaim, after he claimed his result on iguana. I figured he would want it not to continue if town, to protect the rest of town roles. But he didn't stop us from claiming. That points me toward thinking he's scum.
e, what were you trying to achieve by "stringing it along", but also immediately calling iguana scum and voting for him without providing much of a reason?
Also, when did you decide that iguana would be your target? Did you think much during the Night about what you might do with whatever result you got?
I did not think much overnight about what I would do whatever the result. I had a short period of time between getting the result and the thread opening, and in that period is where I developed all my wonderful ideas. Immediately calling iguana scum was meant as a soft claim of sorts. The overconfidence was meant to spur reactions, then I would follow with my claim. Originally, the whole full cop/1-shot cop was meant to draw the NK N3 then end up not actually being as important since I was 1-shot. I decided that lying wasn't a good idea, so I would just claim "cop with a N2 result" and see who would press me for additional results, imagining that they might be scum. In my mind, I wasn't lying, I was withholding information. Which, yeah, not telling the full truth is a lie, especially because my intention was for people to imagine me as a full cop. I did want to claim before any sort of mass claim, the idea being that scum doesn't need any additional info, and town can use their PRs as they see fit, and I trust town to do what is right. At least what they think is right.
I put iguana down as an initial target at the start of the night with the thought to go back and rethink if I should target someone else. I didn't do that and just stayed on iguana.
Bold added above for emphasis...On a different note, I don't think we need anyone to claim because we have caught scum for todaySo who did you investigate N1?
I am a cop
I investigated Iguana last night
iguana is an imposter.
So e, what are your thoughts of faust, in light of this? I know many have been back and forth on him, based on his strong reactions here D3.
I have no clue how to respond to faust at this point. He is so lost in his own little world
I mean, he is doing great eroding my read that since iguana is scum, faust must be town.
Also, even more suspicious of faust.
Claiming masons for MiX/Didds is MVP play right there... If scum win (and faust is scum)
What’s the logic for scum!faust outing us? Especially with so much heat on me EOD D2? He created two ICs and made the POE much stronger against everyone else.
What’s the logic for scum!faust outing us? Especially with so much heat on me EOD D2? He created two ICs and made the POE much stronger against everyone else.
He didn't create two ICs. Your role as mason did that.
He identified you correctly for town cred. Despite my objections, a mass claim was going to happen. As scum, whether it comes out early or late didn't matter. It comes out and you have to deal with it. faust found a way he thought could get him some town credit. Make lemonade out of lemons if you will.
What’s the logic for scum!faust outing us? Especially with so much heat on me EOD D2? He created two ICs and made the POE much stronger against everyone else.
He didn't create two ICs. Your role as mason did that.
He identified you correctly for town cred. Despite my objections, a mass claim was going to happen. As scum, whether it comes out early or late didn't matter. It comes out and you have to deal with it. faust found a way he thought could get him some town credit. Make lemonade out of lemons if you will.
Does he need the towncred? He knows I'm uncondionally townreading him from EoD1. There's no reason to buddy us.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.I had already put this down as a potential crumb at the time, and you'll see I haven't pressed for either Swowl or EFHW after that. This was reinforced later in the Day when he was explicitly asked about it by gkrieg:
At the time, this reinforced my scumread on gkrieg because he seemed to be rolefishing. Swowl doubles down on not explaining his change of mind here.@Swowl, why were you being stupid thinking EFHW was scum D1?
1. Because I was being stupid.
1. I would rather not go into why I think this is Town!MiX (that is not a crumb, it is reads based). But yeah... town mix.The EFHW read very explicitly did not have that same disclaimer.
So, here's the thing with Swowl.
So Swowl is acting exactly like 2.7's partner, and Faust goes to hell and back to justify that Swowl is acting like my partner based on misreading a breadcrumb based only on saying he was stupid, and now he's off voting scum and onto town and everyone is just fine with it?
Intent to vote iguana whenever everybody’s cool with it.
The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
Zero discussion on faust claiming for other people. I think that above anything else is reason for faust to be on top of the list for possible D4 exiles
So Swowl is acting exactly like 2.7's partner, and Faust goes to hell and back to justify that Swowl is acting like my partner based on misreading a breadcrumb based only on saying he was stupid, and now he's off voting scum and onto town and everyone is just fine with it?
We’re not fine with it but we know that today’s exile has to be you or e. Faust scrutiny will come tomorrow.
So Swowl is acting exactly like 2.7's partner, and Faust goes to hell and back to justify that Swowl is acting like my partner based on misreading a breadcrumb based only on saying he was stupid, and now he's off voting scum and onto town and everyone is just fine with it?
We’re not fine with it but we know that today’s exile has to be you or e. Faust scrutiny will come tomorrow.
I've said multiple times that I think it's almost too convenient that everything lines up for if e is lying scum. I think that's the answer, and since that will no longer put him at X-1, I will
Vote: e
Good morning friends!
So, we’ve heard from everyone now. There isn’t any tension with e’s claim that I see. I’m going to wait to vote until faust and whomever else have had time to reread, but I don’t have any reason to disbelieve e so I plan to vote for iguana.
Iguana, I wanted to say this now, if you’re scum, you have played really well in my opinion. Your posts defending yourself are well articulated and the frustration seems authentic. The fact that there is this much doubt speaks to how well you’ve played.
I mean IFFFF E! is lying, then it ends up 2v3 two days from now in a best case scenario for skum.
Today exile II
Tonight Skum kills mason 1
Tomorrow Exile E!
That night skum kills mason 2.
That leaves [Swowl, Faust, Joth, Math, Jimmm] with 2 skum in it.
We then have to exile. And we have to be right. Then skum shoots, assuming we are still playing, and it is 1v2. final day.
OTOH if it went the other way and we were to exile E! (in this case they flipping skum) that would mean there are 3 ICs in the game (masonsX2 + E!). We exile E!, thats 8. skum would kill one of them, then we would have 2v5. Lets just say town exile that day becaues that is what they would plan for, now we are at 2v4. Then they kill another IC at night. We wake up in two days from now 2v3.
Say we find skum that day, cool cool cool. Still 2v1.
All of it ends up at the same place. Why does skum E! doe this here?
Vote: Iguana
It seems that the tides are turning against me. I will try to respond to everyone individually later today but for now maybe consider this?
Is it possible you are all underestimating the bravado of the guy who says he underestimates the danger he's in? And just how good of a position scum is in after they misexile me?
Given that all my allies seem to be abandoning me, doesn't it seem likely that the one without allies is also the one without partners?
If your partners are good it doesn’t really behoove them to defend you here. I would not expect cop-caught scum to have partners defending. And if they did, they’d be doing it the way faust is, by throwing suspicion on the cop.
Maybe faust and iguana are partners?
That’s the scenario where planting the idea of scum investigating scum really pays off for him, because he’s introduced real doubt about which one of them to exile and created a situation where even if we exile iguana and he’s scum, e! isn’t an IC. That’s a pretty great beat case scenario for scum with a caught partner, especially when you know there are two other ICs already that it’s too late to do anything about.
Good morning friends!
So, we’ve heard from everyone now. There isn’t any tension with e’s claim that I see. I’m going to wait to vote until faust and whomever else have had time to reread, but I don’t have any reason to disbelieve e so I plan to vote for iguana.
Iguana, I wanted to say this now, if you’re scum, you have played really well in my opinion. Your posts defending yourself are well articulated and the frustration seems authentic. The fact that there is this much doubt speaks to how well you’ve played.
Can you at least interact with what I've been saying instead of just basically ignoring it while saying that you're mind hasn't changed?
No tension with e's claim? What about the fact that putting out a fake guilty gives 1 scum total clearance to vote a town, and allows the other two scum to hedge and act like they are evaluating a 50/50 and decide which side to vote based on how many or how few townies are supporting the exile? With full scum support for exiling me, they only needed to convince 2 townies to get an exile through and bring us to LyLo.
No tension? What about the fact that if they get my misexile through, scum is in an automatically great spot where they only need one more misexile to win the game? Sure, they lose 2.7, but what they gain is double LyLo, which is a great spot for scum to be in and only requires them to misexile a single townie.
What about everything I argued about how 2.7 has been playing scummy this game that you ignored and have not engaged with? What about the fact that he pushed you and MiX right up to the moment that he found out you were masons? What about your prior town read on me? Does that mean nothing to you? Are you willing to abandon all your prior reads now because you think that 2.7 claimed in a townie way?
Can you at least answer some of this? Because if you don't, when this is over and we're both in the speccy watching a likely scum bloodbath I am not really going to want to talk to you because you just exiled me on a single data point and didn't even engage with me about it.
Oh, I forgot about e. e gets a vote.
That means I'm a dead man walking.
Whatever, I'm done then. GG scum.
If Joth isn't currently voting, then Dylan’s VC is wrong
Dylan, would please do anyone vote count?
I've said multiple times that I think it's almost too convenient that everything lines up for if e is lying scum. I think that's the answer, and since that will no longer put him at X-1, I will
Vote: e
Wait, it's too convenient that e is lying scum, therefore he's lying scum?
By no tension I meant no sort of counter claim.
I've said multiple times that I think it's almost too convenient that everything lines up for if e is lying scum. I think that's the answer, and since that will no longer put him at X-1, I will
Vote: e
Wait, it's too convenient that e is lying scum, therefore he's lying scum?
I mean it's too convenient that there's not a single angle that incriminates him. It's like it was fully worked out at night that this move had no chance of failing. It's a perfectly timed power play to get to triple (but really double) lylo.
You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
I've said multiple times that I think it's almost too convenient that everything lines up for if e is lying scum. I think that's the answer, and since that will no longer put him at X-1, I will
Vote: e
Wait, it's too convenient that e is lying scum, therefore he's lying scum?
I mean it's too convenient that there's not a single angle that incriminates him. It's like it was fully worked out at night that this move had no chance of failing. It's a perfectly timed power play to get to triple (but really double) lylo.
What would be the angles which would incriminate him if he was Town? Such a play clearly does have chances of failing; we could exile e. What if iguana was a PR? What if another Cop had an innocent result on iguana? Why would scum out one of their own for a likely double lylo when they could have gone for an actual triple lylo?
You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
And getting a result N2 of scum, especially as a 1-shot, is a pretty obvious town move to claim in your opening post. He strung it along to see which way it would go, before settling on the claim of 1-shot. Those are not town plays.
And yes, you're right, things could have gone wrong. Maybe we were close to one of his partners, and he's a more disposable goon, so it was determined to be worth it.
We may exile e today. I think we should. But if a cop claims a scum result, isn't the obvious move to kill the "found scum" first? Then if that's wrong, we exile the false claiming cop. If that's the assumed route, putting his team to double lylo is a move worth making.
You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
Ok read this all back to me - where do i deny something?
After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
Ok read this all back to me - where do i deny something?After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
While we're at it, you can try to answer this: You say you reread EFHW N1 and changed your mind on her. What made you change your mind?
Thanks I guess - but I don't think scum!faust would have done this. The smarter play is to kill EFHW and block Swowl. Which is what I assumed happened until Swowl's claim.You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
Ok read this all back to me - where do i deny something?After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
While we're at it, you can try to answer this: You say you reread EFHW N1 and changed your mind on her. What made you change your mind?
Another thing to note- scum!faust may have picked up on the whole breadcrumb thing and targeted swowl to be the NK N2 rather than EFHW. Town points for faust
I say MiX and Didds get an opportunity for any final input (because one of them won't last the night), and we get the exile done.But the other will and can just convey the final input that the dead Mason shared during the Night.
Also the only way this gives me town points at all is if you believe Swowl is town - and then I have to ask: Why?
I need to go back and look at all of those things, but I am more interested in finishing the day off.
I say MiX and Didds get an opportunity for any final input (because one of them won't last the night), and we get the exile done.
Also the only way this gives me town points at all is if you believe Swowl is town - and then I have to ask: Why?
It gives you town points because you processed the concept that swowl breadcrumbed during the day, rather than during the night looking for a NK target.
But I was very much aware of the breadcrumb during D2 already. That's why I said this:Also the only way this gives me town points at all is if you believe Swowl is town - and then I have to ask: Why?
It gives you town points because you processed the concept that swowl breadcrumbed during the day, rather than during the night looking for a NK target.
The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.I even used the same wording as Swowl!
But I was very much aware of the breadcrumb during D2 already. That's why I said this:Also the only way this gives me town points at all is if you believe Swowl is town - and then I have to ask: Why?
It gives you town points because you processed the concept that swowl breadcrumbed during the day, rather than during the night looking for a NK target.The people on Swowl should just move away because that's a stupid wagon.I even used the same wording as Swowl!
I maintain that I should receive townpoints on account of pointing out your flawed assignment of townpoints!
I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
That's correct; the epiphany was about MiX and Didds being Masons.I had an epiphany last night. I think I have solved the game. Massclaim right now is stupid and we shouldn#t do it; if you want to know who has what PR you can just read the thread.
Being in the same time zone as faust I read this as though he had the epiphany literally "last night" - i.e. this post happened at 6:45am Germany time, the light bulb switched on sometime after he quit posting the previous night, but during the day
I mean IFFFF E! is lying, then it ends up 2v3 two days from now in a best case scenario for skum.
Today exile II
Tonight Skum kills mason 1
Tomorrow Exile E!
That night skum kills mason 2.
That leaves [Swowl, Faust, Joth, Math, Jimmm] with 2 skum in it.
We then have to exile. And we have to be right. Then skum shoots, assuming we are still playing, and it is 1v2. final day.
OTOH if it went the other way and we were to exile E! (in this case they flipping skum) that would mean there are 3 ICs in the game (masonsX2 + E!). We exile E!, thats 8. skum would kill one of them, then we would have 2v5. Lets just say town exile that day becaues that is what they would plan for, now we are at 2v4. Then they kill another IC at night. We wake up in two days from now 2v3.
Say we find skum that day, cool cool cool. Still 2v1.
All of it ends up at the same place. Why does skum E! doe this here?
Vote: Iguana
Are you EFFING kidding?
You lay out two scenarios here and you call them equal, except they are TOTALLY NOT EQUAL!
In scenario one, we misexile iguana ---> one town exile, and now we are at LyLo suddenly.
In scenario two, you add SOME RANDOM MISEXILE into the equation such that the result is we end up in the same place!
That is not a fair assessment at all! In scenario 1, I'm the misexile. In scenario 2, even though town chose right and exiled 2.7, we end up in the same place because we effed up about some other effing thing later on! So in other words, exile correctly today and we still get another chance to eff things up later!
And I'm getting exiled because of analysis like this?
You said that about today, not D2.The only town angle I could see for his play was trying to draw the nightkill, but he denied he was doing that.I said exactly “I thought I could draw the night kill”.
Ok read this all back to me - where do i deny something?After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
While we're at it, you can try to answer this: You say you reread EFHW N1 and changed your mind on her. What made you change your mind?
For all the discussion of us not being RVS, the weekend start we've had feels very RVSy even for a normal game.
Mathdude's comments hereYou don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
remind me a bit of when he OMGUSed me in the last game here. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20798.msg875111#msg875111)
It has that same attitude of scumreading someone for reading the game differently than you. He was town there, so for right now I'm reading it as Math is town again and would want to blend in more if he was scum.
Joth and Jimmm are my biggest unknowns this game.
I vaguely remember Jim as someone who played occasionally, didn't post much, but had a reputation for being good at finding the scums with short, decisive posts. I don't remember if I've ever read a scum Jim game though...
Joth I've seen as mod and I did some reading into his old games already, but I don't know his scum meta either.
@Joth, could you point me in the direction of a scum game you are proud of?
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Yes, I'm eager to get wagons. It's better to actually get people closer to X-1 or X-2 and see throughout the 5 or 7 days how people react, rather than having everyone at 1 or 2 votes until the final 6 hours when only the few online get a say in who gets exiled. If we get real wagons on many people throughout D1, then there's a lot more to look back at in later days. That's how we could find scum.
So I guess I agree with faust... hmmm, that makes me nervous. Oh well, it's D1. I can change my mind about him later if needed
Reading iguana's D1, it's clear he's not partnered with faust. He's fighting him way too much way too early.
Reading iguana's D1, it's clear he's not partnered with faust. He's fighting him way too much way too early.
surely that could be staged
Reading iguana's D1, it's clear he's not partnered with faust. He's fighting him way too much way too early.
surely that could be staged
Why? There's no reason to do that.
Reading iguana's D1, it's clear he's not partnered with faust. He's fighting him way too much way too early.
surely that could be staged
Why? There's no reason to do that.
No reason to distance yourself from your partner?
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
Fair enough. I guess I read "most townie of all townies" as "is town". But it doesn't say that. You're right. I take back a bit of the shade I was throwing at e.
The more I read this game the less I want to play it.
The more I read this game the less I want to play it.
It's the home stretch now. Exile iguana today, math tomorrow.
I feel like I should clarify some of this.
The joth vote was a tiny scum ping which was big enough to warrant a first vote. You could call it semi-RVS.
#158 was really less about scumhunting and more about trying to engage with the game and not knowing how to. The main thing I want out of a Day 1 is to keep up and be engaged in discussions. "[player] is [alignmenty] for [reasons]" is far more helpful to that end than simply "[player] is [alignment]". It's also worth noting that I was not talking about voting without reason, rather making statements with some degree of apparent certainty.
The vote on EFHW was a "reward" for WCD giving reasons for a read. I did not consider the state of wagons at the time.
PPE
I'm gonna back us up a million years and point this post out. I thought it was townie. I basically was trying to articulate a town read on Jim and he rejected my townread as a misreading of his posts. If you are scum, I think you take the free town points when you are under pressure.
At the time, I was going to share this as a reason to think that Jim was town. Then, e pointed out if Jim is the towniest, we should look on wagon for scum and went for Mathdude. That's why I ended up there. Then Jim did a million things, and some of them were scummy as hell TBH and recently he's been hella towny again and I'm starting to lose track.
But the fact remains that this was a townie post and it was produced not before any pressure was on him but at least before tons and tons of people were starting to say he was the best exile and so I think it has more weight to it than posts he was making specifically knowing that he was fighting for his life.
As for Math himself, that is a tough one to read.
Last game Math was town, and I didn't share this but I read almost everything Math said as scum. I also noticed in the speccy at the end, where MiX and Galz had solved most of the game, they continually thought Math was the last scum with EFHW/faust instead of Dylan up onto the innocent result on him. And I remember also that outside of Dwarves mafia and Oz mafia he has been exiled D1 a lot, correctly and incorrectly, or something like that.
But there was one post last game that really made me think Math was town and so I just ignored the other scummy stuff. I'm gonna quote the relevant part:So this is mostly to say I'm starting to become aware of my biases in trying to read people.
So here it is not just what he said but the way he said it that is just so townie a new player couldn't make that stuff up. "I'm starting to become aware." He's right there in the thread... realizing that he OMGUS voted me for no good reason and starting to become aware of his biases. Well... scum isn't starting to become aware of anything... they already know most things. So based on that one sentence I had a townread on Math.
This game... there is not that one sentence. There's actually a similar sentence.-snip
I believe I have fallen victim to this many times. When I start finding someone scummy, I often find it very hard to look at them objectively again. I just find more things that I think are scummy. And it gets worse if I start digging in and posting reasons for my scum read on them.
-snip
But this time, Math is talking about it as a hypothetical. Last game he was "starting to become aware" of his biases in the present tense. This game he's talking about it as a hypothetical... something he's seen many times but its not happening now.
Okay... so I'm realizing now as I type this all out that I've become incredibly fixated on a single sentence from a previous game that I used as my be-all-end-all to read a player who to be honest I sometimes find confounding and even aggravating.
But... as a whole... I think the argument still stands that Math is scummy because there is a lack of any kind of town-slip type post like he had in Oz.
So EFHW. EFHW started out scummy and then there were some posts that made me question it. This one is important I think.I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.
Of course. Your arguments are not very strong though, because Jimmmmm is an experienced player and OMGUS and policy voting are newbie reactions. This makes me concerned that you are scum trying to misexile him.
I'm talking at cross-purposes with myself here, however. I actually do think Jimmmmm is scummy -- because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
vote: Jimmmmm
"I think I see careful maneuvering." To me, this about face on Jim of going from "Let's not restrict ourselves to faust and Jim" and then back to Jim again but for what look like very authentic reasons is a townie looking post. It was also one of the better arguments that Jim could be scum. So when I was reading along it was here that I was thinking, maybe Jim is actually doing this big scum show.
That being said, now I am thinking Jim is town again... so I am back to EFHW is tunneling and pushing an exile I don't feel good about. Last game I thought I had her as scum... and then she convinced me with a pretty nice case on pubby (who I thought was scum but he was town). So I know she can make a strong argument for a townie being scum as scum.
I also agree with MiX that her posts kind of egging on faust and Jim could be a scum thing. She has the town defense of really wanting to know, which she just now articulated, but as scum I think fanning those flames could be a legitimate tactic in order to distract. I also thought her most recent post saying that she didn't extend the discussion that much was kind of disingenous. Besides... the result has nothing to do really with the attempt.
So... bleh... I'm kind of all over the place with EFHW right now.
So WCD I think has got to be town for now for my sanity's sake. MiX said that I remind Mix of himself or faust but I don't really see that. Actually the person here who reminds me of myself is WCD (except she's nicer; I'm a jerk). I noticed that last game... both of us were often reading the game the same way. So that has continued this game with us starting the EFHW wagon at first as a sort of RVS but then she was saying that EFHW was defensive right as I was reading EFHW's response to the the wagon and finding it scummy & defensive.
Also, there are a smattering of posts throughout from Didds that I agree with. Here's one:Can someone tell me why mathdude is scummy?
And the big argument on jimmmm is that he's active?
I don't know...I think if we're taking a shot in the dark someone like Swowl who is just busy elsewhere (which is always super good scum cover, if need be) seems like less of a loss.
So... I don't actually agree on Math. But I have similar feelings about Jim, and am starting to feel the same way about Swowl because despite his continual assurances that he's going to show up, he still hasn't. And at some point that kind of activity goes from null to scummy when you haven't actually posted a VLA.
I realize that it's dangerous to assume that someone who has the same thought process as you is therefore town... but it worked out last game, so for now I am townreading WCD and just leaving that as very much not set in stone.
Okay looks like gkrieg is here so I will read him next.
General impression: gkrieg's posts are like a wall I can't see through at all. So I am going to force myself to read him based on his reads.
So he's defending EFHW... scummy I guess?
But he's voting Mathdude... towny I guess?
And he's back right now and pushing Math hard.
This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.
Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.
Ok... this is almost a stupid reason to quote this post but what does EOL mean? I literally can't parse a word of this post because I don't know that acronym.
Ok and it looks like in his most recent post... he's actually scumreading EFHW? So that should be townie... except it doesn't make sense that he was defending EFHW from a wagon two days ago and now he's interrogating the people who are defending EFHW. So question #2 for gkrieg, what's up with that?
And yeah... gkrieg's reads seem townie but his posts are null. I don't think I have the capacity to read gkrieg until we see flips.
yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.
Sure. So I will read Joth now.
Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Specifically (after reading) what's different between Joth and the scum game I read is that Joth in the scum game had a really hard time making cases and would literally say like "IDK... I gues we could exile Scolapasta???" in response to questions about who he scumread and in this game he does nothing but post cases and reasons for scumreading people.
Oh yeah... and Joth was one of the others who was starting to convince me that Jim could be scum.The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
On top of that, he has:
-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.
This was a decent case. Well, I don't know about the MiX-partner-theory part. (I'm a little leery of partner theories RN because they screwed me last time.) But the other parts were convincing.
*iguana's wall about me*
Okay, who is left to take a look at?
Lalight, Swowl, Joust'emmmmmm, 2.7
2.7: There's not much there, but I think what's there is towny.Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town
IDK why, but to me that little bit of flair of Jim "screamed" town is something town says, not scum. Maybe it's just something e says though.
And as I've said... I like the Math case.
Lalight: I see nothing strongly alignment indicative in their posts themselves, and they are focused on faust and MiX... two of the players I have less figured out. I am just null on Lalight.
Joust'emmmmmmm:
What can I say? They definitely jousted. So they lived up true to their name. If I had to pick a scum from one of them... I'd pick faust because I'm sick of faust beating me literally every time he's scum. But actually I am null-ish on faust and town-ish on Jimmmmmmm and really don't want to exile either one today. And I kind of don't want to reread all of their ISOs because they're huge and it's about to be my weekend.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
Fair enough. I guess I read "most townie of all townies" as "is town". But it doesn't say that. You're right. I take back a bit of the shade I was throwing at e.
Scumslip and also Jimmmmm is town.
Maybe we should just flip math...yesterday...sigh...
The more I read this game the less I want to play it.
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
Fair enough. I guess I read "most townie of all townies" as "is town". But it doesn't say that. You're right. I take back a bit of the shade I was throwing at e.
Scumslip and also Jimmmmm is town.
Maybe we should just flip math...yesterday...sigh...
The more I read this game the less I want to play it.
I like how you keep hedging on where to go next. Calling out partners and teams. We don't even know which way to look until we sort out which of e and iguana is scum. So rather than help the undecided find the truth about e's claim, you keep focusing on things that are less relevant to today's vote.
If you weren't Mason, it'd be too easy to call you scum.
I get that you want to do a reread, MiX. But I am irritated that you ignore my case on Swowl.
My case actually implicates iguana and falls apart if e is scum.I get that you want to do a reread, MiX. But I am irritated that you ignore my case on Swowl.
First I need to know who out of e and iguana are scum. Your case doesn't help there.
My case actually implicates iguana and falls apart if e is scum.I get that you want to do a reread, MiX. But I am irritated that you ignore my case on Swowl.
First I need to know who out of e and iguana are scum. Your case doesn't help there.
I have no idea why you would disagree. It's painfully obvious to me.
My case actually implicates iguana and falls apart if e is scum.I get that you want to do a reread, MiX. But I am irritated that you ignore my case on Swowl.
First I need to know who out of e and iguana are scum. Your case doesn't help there.
Oh yeah I forgot about that detail. I disagree with it completely. I was trying to reread Swowl too to see if he's scummy on his own right.
My case actually implicates iguana and falls apart if e is scum.I get that you want to do a reread, MiX. But I am irritated that you ignore my case on Swowl.
First I need to know who out of e and iguana are scum. Your case doesn't help there.
Oh yeah I forgot about that detail. I disagree with it completely. I was trying to reread Swowl too to see if he's scummy on his own right.
I think we are at the point where it is more useful to look at people based off how they have reacted to wagons, claims, etc., and not "in their own right"
For example, even talking about swowl, the case is convincing to me, but it will always be theoretical for MiX and others until the flip happens
But Swowl has refused to explain his "read" on EFHW, and still could not provide any reason for why he changed his read on her...I have no idea why you would disagree. It's painfully obvious to me.
I don't think breadcrumbs are that clear cut. What you said is true, or is not true, and I don't have a particularly good reason to think it's true other than you saying it.
Good morning friends!
So, we’ve heard from everyone now. There isn’t any tension with e’s claim that I see. I’m going to wait to vote until faust and whomever else have had time to reread, but I don’t have any reason to disbelieve e so I plan to vote for iguana.
Iguana, I wanted to say this now, if you’re scum, you have played really well in my opinion. Your posts defending yourself are well articulated and the frustration seems authentic. The fact that there is this much doubt speaks to how well you’ve played.
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
Could you expand on your perspective? From my perspective I don't think we should
Okay, sure. We are 6 town and 3 scum with 5 to exile. That puts us in a position where it will really help to PoE scum to win. I think claims will help us PoE scum.
From my perspective, there are things we could gain from a mass claim. What do others think?
Could you expand on your perspective? From my perspective I don't think we should
Okay, sure. We are 6 town and 3 scum with 5 to exile. That puts us in a position where it will really help to PoE scum to win. I think claims will help us PoE scum.
iguana, what did you mean here by "my perspective"? You seem to suggest you have some extra information, but then the reason you give is from a global perspective, and then you claim VT. Why not just come straight out and say "I think we could PoE if we massclaim"?
I'm town :( you guys were determined to exile me and doing all kinds of bad analysis. I figure once you see my flip you'll stop wasting your time on a wrong idea and have a chance to actually solve the game.
Vote: iguana
Thankssssssss
You literally said you didn't want to hear from me anymore
By no tension I meant no sort of counter claim.
My reads are terrible, so I try not to trust those. I see you standing close to me at se real points in the game, which is a way of making me feel warm toward you, which has worked but is also a known problem for me.
So, I’m not evaluating you as much as I’m evaluating e which is why you think I’m not interacting with you. I mean, I guess it is in fact a lack of interaction, but it’s not an active ignoring or an attempt to dismiss you.
If I think e is a cop and the result on you is imposter, then it doesn’t matter what I think of you or the arguments you’ve made. Saying that e has acted scummy is asking me to read him, which goes back to my reads are terrible. That he was scum reading MiX and I was a position shared by a lot of folks including gkrieg and EFHW.
Right now I am much more interested in what everyone other than you and e are saying. I expect that scum will line up in one way or another.
But it’s the weekend and I’ve been family centered (our kid turned 13 yesterday! WTF?!!) so I haven’t read closely, but also I’m also not voting.
chum to scum?
I have a pretty strong townread on Jim at this point
scum to chum is
WCD
Jim
e
math
faust
Swowl
I guess? Man, I wish I felt surer about things generally.
Can everyone post their chum to scum list?
chum to scum?
also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
I don't think it's helpful at all. People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.Can everyone post their chum to scum list?
This seems like a good idea... yours obviously gets posted last.
faust - start of D3 was just way too much... seems like some hidden agendaCan you be more precise? What agenda would I have followed there?
Swowl - when he's here, he posts thoughtful stuff, but mostly seems to not be around or contribute much (1 week, for 1 game day... okay. But 3 and counting could be hiding)this is what I mean about scum to chum lists by the way. It's D3 with a scum flip and mathdude doesn't have anything better on Swowl than "he's lurking". That's not going to help us.
While we're at it, you can try to answer this: You say you reread EFHW N1 and changed your mind on her. What made you change your mind?I just typed something out. It is not my fault you mistakenly read more into than you should. I’ll grab my efoo notes when I get to a desktop, but honestly it was just “this is town efoo I’m being dumb”
AFTER - However, after finishing a my read back night 1, I realized that EFHW was actually just being herself and this was skum hunting. Trying to push the game forward.math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
Apologies to those who don't feel they were doing RVS. I was stuck in it, so getting out of it myself was the main point of what I was saying. I actually think my question to mathdude was sufficiently incisive. Why is he calling for people to join him on the wagon at the same time he is calling it RVS, maybe, he isn't sure?AFTER - During my read I realized that EFHW had literally contributed nothing but fluff outside of the single post (the first quote in this post) up to this question. So asking what seems defensive at isn't actually skummy - especially because of the wagon. Obviously, WCD then quotes the post in mention which is the only thing it could be, and EFHW says "I don't see it". Again, saw that as skummy at first, but really it isn't. If she were skum she would defend it, not dismiss it.
I am lacking insight into which posts sound defensive. Can you point to them?
AFTER - But in the re read I gave her more credit for following up with this:In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
If angry is too strong a word, then when did your negative feelings peak?This made me believe that she was actually looking for answers and trying to skum hunt instead of just trying to use ATE to d
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
I didn't know either thing before I asked. I'm sorry there were more argument posts, but there weren't THAT many, and I know I gained some insight from it. What do you see as the problem?
I think I have some understanding of joth's game so far now, and it's making a bit more sense. I think the "stick to a read" plan explains the vibe I (and I gather Swowl) was getting, and it sounds likely to be a premeditated (ie non-alignment-dependent) plan. I think I'm leaning slight Town, but also that he warrants further investigation on a future Day.He explains in #555.
I would like to know why MiX said joth voting for EFHW was a scumslip - was that ever explained? Was it just because it contradicted his plan?
After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
I straight up don't understand this. You put "lean into it" into quotation but I have no idea where that is supposed to be quoted from, or what kind of point you are making.After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
I would also like to reiterate on this bit - by "lean into it" I was just using the letterkenny verbiage that was being joked about previously in the game. A more well worded response should of been "I didn't deny it".
I mean, he doesn't need to kill EFHW. It helps his claim but it's not integral.
I am more convinced now that Swowl is scum than that iguana is, but it wouldn't be sensible to exile outside of e/iguana today.
I straight up don't understand this. You put "lean into it" into quotation but I have no idea where that is supposed to be quoted from, or what kind of point you are making.After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
I would also like to reiterate on this bit - by "lean into it" I was just using the letterkenny verbiage that was being joked about previously in the game. A more well worded response should of been "I didn't deny it".
Yes.I mean, he doesn't need to kill EFHW. It helps his claim but it's not integral.
I am more convinced now that Swowl is scum than that iguana is, but it wouldn't be sensible to exile outside of e/iguana today.
So when you say this it is essentially either me and E or me and Iguana right?
ppe faust
I still don't understand the post that you made.I straight up don't understand this. You put "lean into it" into quotation but I have no idea where that is supposed to be quoted from, or what kind of point you are making.After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
I would also like to reiterate on this bit - by "lean into it" I was just using the letterkenny verbiage that was being joked about previously in the game. A more well worded response should of been "I didn't deny it".
yeah I get that and I regret doing it. It is from a Canadian comedy show named letterkenny. It mean "to keep going with it" in this context
I still don't understand the post that you made.I straight up don't understand this. You put "lean into it" into quotation but I have no idea where that is supposed to be quoted from, or what kind of point you are making.After you mentioned it for the first time I went back searching for the post, and yes I can see how you thought it was a crumb, but it wasn’t intended that way.Here you deny that you intended the EFHW posts as a crumb, but leaving a fake crumb in order to be nightkilled would be the only possible town motivation for what you did.
I would also like to reiterate on this bit - by "lean into it" I was just using the letterkenny verbiage that was being joked about previously in the game. A more well worded response should of been "I didn't deny it".
yeah I get that and I regret doing it. It is from a Canadian comedy show named letterkenny. It mean "to keep going with it" in this context
Exile all people who claimed to have considered lying.
You say somewhere in the previous day that "I claimed VT because I got caught when Iguana claimed".I don't think I said that. You got caught because e claimed Cop, and then your claiming Cop as well would not have looked as good as you wanted.
What did you mean by that?
*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
It's sad when you only have scum to interact with.
This:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
Faust, what do you think is the chance, currently, that e is scum?Low? If I had to give a random percentage it would be somewhere around 5%. Should Swowl flip town, that number goes up, but I very much doubt that is going to happen.
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
I'm not sure that is a good scum move there. I mean if a Cop claims a guilty result, almost all of the time the guilty result is exiled. I don't think I could have won that particular battle, so it only paints me in a bad light. Better to cut your losses there as scum I'd think.
It's worth pointing out that in the scenario where both e and Swowl are town, scum would have already known that Swowl wasn't a Cop after e's claim. But that revelation was what pushed me over to iguana. If I'm scum there then I built a case on e that I knew from the get-go was going to fall apart.
So scum!faust rejects e’s cop claim out of the gate but then comes around on it when Swowl claims VT. faust genuinely claims to have no insight on whether e would choose to fake-investigate a partner or a towny, which is fair.
Ok, so that’s town!faust, it all seems to make sense. Here’s scum!faust and town!e:This narrative implicitly assumes that Swowl is town. Is there a narrative for scum!faust, town!e, scum!Swowl or does me being scum only work if both e and Swowl are town?
Remember I said his reads are genuine, so he still thinks Swowl is going to claim cop. Suddenly, e claims cop. That’s not the cop claim he prepared for and he’s already committed to the Swowl cop read. E has just fingered his partner. Unexpected! Not good! Now he can go all in and bus, which is the go-to scum move here, but scum is playing a good game so far. They only need a couple more misexiles to win. And e’s claim was kind of a mess. So faust decides to see if he can’t push town to disbelieve the cop claim and exile e. Sure it only buys a day and then they’re still coming after iguana, but now the (possibly full and lying) cop is out of the way, town’s got two more scum to catch and few chances, and faust looks fine because the town narrative (above) checks out. He doesn’t know what Swowl’s going to claim at this point, but it behooves him to stick with the previously stated cop read because he knows, as town, that he would still be believing it even if, as scum, he now knows it’s unlikely to be right.
No actually, the above doesn't make sense. You claim that scum!me didn't know what Swowl was going to claim, but that is plainly false regardless of Swowl's alignment.
This narrative implicitly assumes that Swowl is town. Is there a narrative for scum!faust, town!e, scum!Swowl or does me being scum only work if both e and Swowl are town?
I don’t think it destroys it. It means that you knew Swowl was going to claim VT but, knowing that you wouldn’t know that as town, you had to play-act until he did. The next move would be to re-read and see if there’s any hint of fakery in your interactions around Swowl’s claim.This may be true, but I don't think scum!me would have needed to push the e case on doomed pretenses there. I could have
I don't think it's helpful at all. People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.Can everyone post their chum to scum list?
This seems like a good idea... yours obviously gets posted last.
faust - start of D3 was just way too much... seems like some hidden agendaCan you be more precise? What agenda would I have followed there?
Also, I know this isn't going to go well with some of you, but if there is 3 ICs to choose from, why would scum!me go for the one who defended me the hardest?
Swowl - when he's here, he posts thoughtful stuff, but mostly seems to not be around or contribute much (1 week, for 1 game day... okay. But 3 and counting could be hiding)this is what I mean about scum to chum lists by the way. It's D3 with a scum flip and mathdude doesn't have anything better on Swowl than "he's lurking". That's not going to help us.
It's nice that your partner iguana made sure you had some more time to put this all together. It's still not convincing.
Exile all people who claimed to have considered lying.
It's sad when you only have scum to interact with.
Kind of want to say "tell me about it" at this point
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
I'm not sure that is a good scum move there. I mean if a Cop claims a guilty result, almost all of the time the guilty result is exiled. I don't think I could have won that particular battle, so it only paints me in a bad light. Better to cut your losses there as scum I'd think.
It's worth pointing out that in the scenario where both e and Swowl are town, scum would have already known that Swowl wasn't a Cop after e's claim. But that revelation was what pushed me over to iguana. If I'm scum there then I built a case on e that I knew from the get-go was going to fall apart.
-snip- (A bunch of discussion about what town/scum e/faust could look like in various scenarios) -snip-
It's good to spell this out since we know the setup now.
Scum has started the game with the following roles: Roleblocker, 1-shot Strongman, Goon. That outcome means that immediately, they knew the setup was either TTTTXX or TTTXXX (where X stands for an unknwon letter). I.e., there are at most three letters that give town powers.
At start of D3, scum has the following information: There is a 1-shot Doctor and there are Masons. How could that happen?
Masons only happen with M or MMM. But MMM would mean there is no space for other PRs. Since EFHW flipped other PR, it must be M.
So we have TTTMXX.
Now, there are 2 ways to get a 1-shot Doctor: Either DD (giving Doctor + 1-shot Doctor) or E (giving just a 1-shot Doctor). With DD, there would be another PR out there that is a Doctor. With E, the remaining letter could be anything.
Then, e claims Cop (assuming e is town here). A full Cop requires 2 letters: CC (or EEE). But scum already knows there isn't room for that. So e is a 1-shot Cop, which they now know. But then they know the setup: It's TTTMEC (or TTTMEE, which is equivalent). There is no room for another town PR, so after that claim scum knows that all other townies are VTs.
This means that A) at the time after e's claim, scum knew town!Swowl would claim VT B) at the time after e's claim, scum knew he wasn't a full Cop. joth's above narrative says that my decision to push for e's exile was based on not knowing what Swowl would claim and not knowing whether e is a full Cop, but both of these points are proven wrong by the above.
yeah, a narrative for both faust and me as scum is a bit fantastical. Easiest explanation is that both faust and I are town.
I just read through Swowl and Math's D3.
I felt like swowl immediately believed my claim and jumped onto iguana after me. Which one of the biggest reasons someone might unequivocally believe me is because they knew that iguana was, in fact, scum. They also went through and were one of my most ardent defenders all day, and it is easy to defend a position that you know is true (because you are scum).
It seemed like math was just commenting on stuff that happened for activity and then eventually votes for me. I don't know, didn't really feel genuine town read to me, more of a last ditch hope that people would go ahead and exile me rather than iguana.
I didn't go back to D1/D2 to look at how they interact with each other and if it makes sense that they are partners with iguana, but I think just based on D3 I would lean toward exiling math first then swowl next. Definitely see a narrative for an iguana/math/swowl team.
-snip-
... more of a last ditch hope that people would go ahead and exile me rather than iguana.
I didn't go back to D1/D2 to look at how they interact with each other and if it makes sense that they are partners with iguana, but I think just based on D3 I would lean toward exiling math first then swowl next. Definitely see a narrative for an iguana/math/swowl team.
It's good to spell this out since we know the setup now.
Scum has started the game with the following roles: Roleblocker, 1-shot Strongman, Goon. That outcome means that immediately, they knew the setup was either TTTTXX or TTTXXX (where X stands for an unknwon letter). I.e., there are at most three letters that give town powers.
At start of D3, scum has the following information: There is a 1-shot Doctor and there are Masons. How could that happen?
Masons only happen with M or MMM. But MMM would mean there is no space for other PRs. Since EFHW flipped other PR, it must be M.
So we have TTTMXX.
Now, there are 2 ways to get a 1-shot Doctor: Either DD (giving Doctor + 1-shot Doctor) or E (giving just a 1-shot Doctor). With DD, there would be another PR out there that is a Doctor. With E, the remaining letter could be anything.
Then, e claims Cop (assuming e is town here). A full Cop requires 2 letters: CC (or EEE). But scum already knows there isn't room for that. So e is a 1-shot Cop, which they now know. But then they know the setup: It's TTTMEC (or TTTMEE, which is equivalent). There is no room for another town PR, so after that claim scum knows that all other townies are VTs.
This means that A) at the time after e's claim, scum knew town!Swowl would claim VT B) at the time after e's claim, scum knew he wasn't a full Cop. joth's above narrative says that my decision to push for e's exile was based on not knowing what Swowl would claim and not knowing whether e is a full Cop, but both of these points are proven wrong by the above.
Wouldn't scum have started with Godfather, Roleblocker, and 1-shot Strongman?
Otherwise, I do agree with your setup analysis, that we are at TTTMEC or TTTMEE (which are the same thing here), as long as e is town.
But I don't agree with your conclusion... because e could be scum. If he fake-claimed guilty on partner (which I know people say is unlikely), then you all know it's actually TTTME, and there's still a possibility for the final letter to be E (another 1-shot doctor, or a real 1-shot cop), C (a real 1-shot cop), D (full doctor), or even B (roleblocker), or another T (VT). I think it's even possible e is scum and you (faust) are town and were just mistaken, while he, iguana, and their other partner are glad you jumped in hard on e so they didn't have to get as involved in the discussion.
That's why you killed MiX last night... so you could just trail off the "MiX said many times we should exile math, so we should definitely do it". Get that misexile, with dead-town-backup-argument so you can be at lylo.
This:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
This:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
I just read through Swowl and Math's D3.
I felt like swowl immediately believed my claim and jumped onto iguana after me. Which one of the biggest reasons someone might unequivocally believe me is because they knew that iguana was, in fact, scum. They also went through and were one of my most ardent defenders all day, and it is easy to defend a position that you know is true (because you are scum).
It seemed like math was just commenting on stuff that happened for activity and then eventually votes for me. I don't know, didn't really feel genuine town read to me, more of a last ditch hope that people would go ahead and exile me rather than iguana.
I didn't go back to D1/D2 to look at how they interact with each other and if it makes sense that they are partners with iguana, but I think just based on D3 I would lean toward exiling math first then swowl next. Definitely see a narrative for an iguana/math/swowl team.
This is very convenient assumptions.
Swowl believed your claim because he "new that iguana was, in fact, scum". Or he believed your claim because when a cop finds a scum, we vote the scum out.
Wouldn't scum have started with Godfather, Roleblocker, and 1-shot Strongman?Oh, neat, I town-slipped!
emphasis mineThis:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
but we mass-claimed. are you suggesting some townie lied about their claim?
Even if there were potential flaws (below the surface), a bold move like you did, potentially with scum!you and scum!e (or even less bold, but very possible, scum!you and town!e), the whole idea of "I'm not sure that is a good scum move there" is exactly why I feel you might have done it. People may have said it's not a good idea for scum!you to point it out, and you could just let the conversation go with it. But since you're now the one that brought it up, it's very much WIFOM.The is the lamest take of all time, and I am sick of hearing it.
And when he planned the claim N2, since he is som, those setup options I listed were what they suspected, so there was actually room for e to fake claim.That's not true actually, because EFHW hadn't flipped at that point, and whether scum had figured out the Masonry is anyone's guess.
The flip that should have happened D1You realize that iguana was on that wagon?
The flip that should have happened D1You realize that iguana was on that wagon?
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdude
we just voting now?
He doubles down on that later though. It's not quite clear cut.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdude
But really... This is a perfect bus vote. Just made the "mistake" of staying on wagon too long. Except not, because math want exiled
I mean it's fine if we are but the next vote on Swowl is L-1. Technically if scum isn't already on Swowl (and he isn't scum) they could quickhammer him right now.But they wouldn't win that way.
Wouldn't scum have started with Godfather, Roleblocker, and 1-shot Strongman?Oh, neat, I town-slipped!
we just voting now?
This is what I am looking at:
faust, e, Didds - town core
Jimmmm, joth - solid town
Math, swowl - scum
Unless people want to make an argument jimmmm or joth is scum, I don't see my vote changing off swowl/math
emphasis mineThis:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
I’m gonna be VLA for the long weekend. I’m going wine tasting in CA, so I’ll check in every evening when I’m doing the other checking in stuff but it would well be DAMA. I’m fully back, and for sure sober, on Tuesday.
emphasis mineThis:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
You are basing all of your logic off WIFOM from NK choice.
We have no idea how many letters are in play.
1 shot doc could be EE for all the hell we know.
emphasis mineThis:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
You are basing all of your logic off WIFOM from NK choice.
We have no idea how many letters are in play.
1 shot doc could be EE for all the hell we know.
EE is either 2x of the 1-shot doctor, or 1-shot each doc and cop.
... unless you're saying there's another role out there.
emphasis mineThis:*snip*
So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us at scum!Swowl having planned to go for a Cop fakeclaim, and then after he saw e's claim he decided he had to back out. But that only makes sense if e is town.
Vote: iguana
You said it here.
Here is the thing - Everyone had claimed by the time I had claimed. And now we know that Iguana flipped RB. So in the world where I am skum, where "I got caught", what kept me from just claiming cop after everyone had claimed VT except for the masons?The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
How does this not work?
E- EFHW (1 shot Doc)
M - MiX Didds (masons)
CCC - Swowl/E! (Cop + 1Shot Cop)
You are basing all of your logic off WIFOM from NK choice.
We have no idea how many letters are in play.
1 shot doc could be EE for all the hell we know.
EE is either 2x of the 1-shot doctor, or 1-shot each doc and cop.
... unless you're saying there's another role out there.
this is incorrect.. EE 1 shot doc OR 1shot cop x2
People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.
I’m gonna be VLA for the long weekend. I’m going wine tasting in CA, so I’ll check in every evening when I’m doing the other checking in stuff but it would well be DAMA. I’m fully back, and for sure sober, on Tuesday.
Uh… what now? FB msg me!!!
People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.
This seems wrong. Of course rereads can change reads, but wouldn't Town faust want scum to have to give some reads at this point? Why is faust only concerned with the reads of Townies?
What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?
A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc
Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)
I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.
Scum's reads are fairly simple at this point; there are only so many non-IC town left and they have to exile them.People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.
This seems wrong. Of course rereads can change reads, but wouldn't Town faust want scum to have to give some reads at this point? Why is faust only concerned with the reads of Townies?
Yeah, this runs me the wrong way. I would rather talk about perceptions and think they could generate an interesting data point. But since reads are non-binding, I think faust finds them irrelevant. Still, it is helpful to me to see where my town friends are standing.
One good reason to flip Swowl today is that it reveals something about faust. I told mix that I thought that is Swowl was red, faust was an MIC.
What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?
A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc
Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)
I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.
What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?
A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc
Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)
I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.
I am not trying to obscure anything - and I was correct.
? We have played this set up a lot and no one has ever brought this up. Since my time here at least.What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?
A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc
Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)
I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.
I am not trying to obscure anything - and I was correct.
Balance-wise, it just doesn't make sense that it's either 2 cops or 1 doc, for an EE roll (all 1-shot). The cop is more powerful, as indicated by the single C being 1-shot cop and single D being full doctor. So ash's original intention of setup design is likely as I read it. But I guess you aren't the only one to misinterpret, as our mod assumed the same as you.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdude
As for Math himself, that is a tough one to read.
...
But... as a whole... I think the argument still stands that Math is scummy because there is a lack of any kind of town-slip type post like he had in Oz.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner?...
...
I realize I am focusing on you. But that is because I am voting you. And the extent to which I am doing so is not as much as you are making it out to be.
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (32):jotheonah,mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Last thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust.
I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.
I'm here. I would exile elsewhere to avoid nexile, but right now where I'm at looks best.
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Well, exactly one of us is wrong about Math. More later.
I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town.
@EFHW, I was seeing a lot of posts like that last game too, when Math was town.
One thing I've noticed about Math is that he sort of describes things in black and white. In a way, it makes sense for a game like mafia because either you're scum or you're town. But he doesn't often seem to leave room for the uncertainty of things like "you might be town" or "you might be right, but you might be wrong." But the way he said I'm either super helpful or lying scum, it's like he had this gut reaction and he didn't even consider the in between.
And I think I was seeing that from Math and having a hard time not scum reading it in Oz as well.
I'll be honest. I'm still having trouble not reading every third thing Math says as scum. But I think there are enough reasons to consider him town right now that he shouldn't be the exile today. IMO we need to look elsewhere.
Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.
Vote: math
You got away from the math tunnel but boy did it not last long.
What I see is a player who is super-laser-focused on how other people read him. To the extent that a lot of his votes are OMGUS spurred. And I know enough of his meta to know that he was doing this in Oz as well, at the very least, and as town. I don't agree with the methodology but I don't see it as scum either.
-snip-
But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.
-snip-
But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.
So, math is town. Who is scum in their place? You? Joth? faust?
You don't have a lot of options. Defending math as town in a vacuum doesn't help a lot at this point.
-snip-
But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.
So, math is town. Who is scum in their place? You? Joth? faust?
You don't have a lot of options. Defending math as town in a vacuum doesn't help a lot at this point.
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't? :(
More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't? :(
More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.
But if you're Town it should also affect reads on Swowl, as then he's either being bussed or Town. Well okay given that you've put him in your top 2 scum, he's being bussed or Town anyway.
Yes, it's here:I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't? :(
More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.
Because I think you're scum!
No, maybe I missed it? What's your main concern? Was it the bussing?
and then here:The flip that should have happened D1You realize that iguana was on that wagon?
He doubles down on that later though. It's not quite clear cut.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.
Vote: Mathdude
But really... This is a perfect bus vote. Just made the "mistake" of staying on wagon too long. Except not, because math want exiled
It’s thanksgiving?!? That’s amazing!!
I have had too much to drink and cannot be trusted, according to J.
What’s on the menu for Canadian thanksgiving??
It’s thanksgiving?!? That’s amazing!!
I have had too much to drink and cannot be trusted, according to J.
Canadian Thanksgiving, yes.
I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Yes, I'm eager to get wagons. It's better to actually get people closer to X-1 or X-2 and see throughout the 5 or 7 days how people react, rather than having everyone at 1 or 2 votes until the final 6 hours when only the few online get a say in who gets exiled. If we get real wagons on many people throughout D1, then there's a lot more to look back at in later days. That's how we could find scum.
So I guess I agree with faust... hmmm, that makes me nervous. Oh well, it's D1. I can change my mind about him later if needed
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Last night, I wrote the quoted post, in my heading really not sure where iguana was at - I had been feeling he's a bit scummy for a while, but that post of his I quoted really set off scum-bells for me. I started a re-read of him (on phone, in bed), then fell asleep. I was planning to follow up that post (where I "unvoted") with a post about iguana and likely a vote for him.
If someone wants to save me a little time and summarize iguana's posts through D1 and D2, that might save me a bit of time. But I will go through them for sure, as I feel he's one person I've basically ignored this game so far - probably the most active person I've ignored (I also have almost no thoughts on e or gk, since almost nothing they have said has stood out to me, other than their basically naked votes of me D1).
I had sort of ignored iguana D1, since I had only played 1 other game with him (Oz), and wanted to focus more on people I had played multiple games with, in order to get a little more info about how to read him. I was scum-reading him off-and-on last game, and I think that's just that his playstyle will get read that way to me (the same way I will, by default, think MiX, faust, and a few others not in this game are just scummy by the way they post D1 of games). Again, I'm becoming more aware of this bias, and trying to take it into account in learning how to read people.
Fair enough to say he wasn't sheeping me. Maybe I got over-reactive at that point. Like I said earlier, I was planning to follow up that post with a re-read on you and likely a vote on you (which is what this is now!) And part of the reason I'm thinking that is you are all-of-a-sudden now changing your mind on me. "I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town". Done with the argument, and just trying to deflect the attention, so I stop focusing on you? If you town-read me now, maybe I'll ignore you?
Vote: iguana
When I had posted 2 days ago about iguana sheeping me, I was definitely under the mindset that he had been building up in scumminess throughout the game, and I'd have a big case. But now that I've gone through all his posts, even with a lean on thinking he's scum, they aren't quite as bad as my initial gut read seemed to think they are (and I fully expect pushback on a few fo my comments). However, I still don't like a bunch of what he said, and will leave my vote there for now. I'll see how he responds.
I disagree that he's the towniest. But like I said near the end of it... I went into it with a big gut scumread on iguana, then as I was getting through the posts, they weren't seeming near as scummy as I remembered. But I'm leaving my vote there now until he responds. I assume it will either assure me that he is scum, or it will give me a reason to move my vote.
I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.
You have e as your top scumread? Talk me through the iguana Cop result.
I'm here, just waiting until we exile Swowl.
Day 2 vote counts, extended... as of 6 hours to deadline:
Vote Count 2.1
mathdude (2): MiX, 2.71828.....
MiX (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (2): Swowl, faust
faust (1): mathdude
Not Voting (5): gkrieg13, Jimmmmm, iguanaiguana, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
mathdude: MiX, 2.71
MiX: joth
joth: Swowl, faust
faust: math, iguana
mathdude: MiX, 2.71, EFHW
MiX: joth
joth: Swowl, faust
faust: iguana
Vote Count 2.2
mathdude (2): MiX, EFHW
jotheonah (2): Swowl, faust
faust (2): , iguanaiguana, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (5): gkrieg13, Jimmmmm, WestCoastDidds, mathdude, jotheonah
mathdude: MiX, EFHW, gkrieg
joth: Swowl
faust: iguana
iguana: 2.71
2.71: faust
mathdude: MiX, EFHW, gkrieg
joth: Swowl
faust: iguana, 2.71
2.71: faust
mathdude: EFHW, gkrieg
joth: Swowl
faust: iguana, 2.71
gkrieg: faust, WCD, MiX
iguana: math
Vote Count 2.3
mathdude (3): EFHW, gkrieg13, MiX
jotheonah (1): Swowl,
faust (1): 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): mathdude,
gkrieg13 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Swowl (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude: EFHW, gkrieg, MiX, joth
joth: Swowl
gkrieg: faust, WCD, iguana, Jim, math
WCD: 2.71
mathdude: EFHW, gkrieg
joth: Swowl, MiX
gkrieg: faust, WCD, iguana, Jim, math
WCD: 2.71, joth
Vote Count 2.4
mathdude (3): EFHW, gkrieg13, jotheonah,
jotheonah (3): Swowl, MiX, WestCoastDidds
gkrieg13 (4): faust, iguanaiguana, Jimmmmm, mathdude
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....
-snip-
-snip-
-snip-
iguana from math's perspective.
-a long post, and I've snipped all his quotes of me/iguana out, for brevity... and points numbered for reference-
1. So math's vote on iguana could easily be seen as a bus; it didn't last very long and there wasn't all that much reason for it. He did later indicate iguana was hedgy, but not all that much to that either.
2. Holding on to his scumread.
3. Hmm. I do find it strange that math says he was basically ignoring iguana, despite the fact the he has clearly scumread him for some time, and reacted sharply to iguana sheeping him.
4. I could see this as a pre-emptive excuse to abandon his scumread.
5. So this is a very long post, ending with a vote, but a non-committal one.
6. Soon after this he indicates support for the gkrieg wagon and then joins it. As far as I can tell, he never acknowledges iguana's response to his case, or really ever mentions him again, other than to disbelieve e's claim and say that scum iguana would not advocate for continuing the massclaim.
7. So okay from this perspective I could totally see them being partners. math, what was it about iguana's response that caused you to abandon your scumread on him? Why didn't you acknowledge the fact that you'd changed your read, despite the large amount of work you put into forming the read?
I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.
But if you're Town it should also affect reads on Swowl, as then he's either being bussed or Town. Well okay given that you've put him in your top 2 scum, he's being bussed or Town anyway.
I think my chum to scum list earlier today (game day) had Swowl second. But shortly after, as I worked through e, I realized I had him in the wrong spot. I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.
If it's Swowl/faust or Swowl/e, you're right the bussing makes less sense, since they could probably just push to exile me.
We have 4 days until deadline, I ask for half that time (2 days) to deep dive and get thoughts out based on this. My contributions this game have been lackluster at best, so if I have to be the pick of the day, I would at least like the chance to attempt to help in some way this game.
I have gone through it in a good amount of detail. Read back through my posts. I don't see 1-shot cop claiming the way he did. I'd more believe he's a full cop that lied to us about his role or he's scum. After you read back, let me know if you still have questions.
Long term thinking, bus Swowl (whichever one of them it is). Yes, only 1 scum left, and need 2 misexiles. But by being the one that drives the wagon, rather than jumping on at optimal bussing time, they are much less likely to be suspected.Or maybe this is your long-term strategy to get two more misexiles :)
What shook your confidence?
you should already know the answer to that.
Is the answer as you see it the same as the one faust gave?
no.
I am VT.
Sorry for not correcting faust earlier, but I figured if we ended up not claiming all the way I would draw a kill, so I leaned into it a bit.
As weird as it seems, I think what is happening is skum is trying to set up a situation where they can go 1-2, as in after my flip, they can justify an easy faust exile. And yes, that annoyingly means I do not think faust is skum. Incorrect - yes. Skum - no.
I believe that enough to say that I think that after I flip VT, you all should not exile faust. At least 100% at least he should not be the next exile. I think that is what skum is going for.
So, I believe there are 2 skum in [Jimmm, Math, Joth, E!] and they are sitting pretty letting faust do the work for them.
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
so you tried to see who would bite. then someone bit. and then you outted your plan and bailed.
How does that make sense?
I mean....
Vote: Iguana
We are not in lylo. E! is pretty much assured to never be lying about Iguana being skum here.
I mean my argument is thus:
If iguana is scum, then we should exile e first, because scum wants us to exile iguana.
If iguana is town, then we should exile e, because... iguana is town.
So no matter iguana's alignment it's best to exile e.
.... or you know... E is town and Iguana is skum?
Alright, Swowl. Thoughts on e and iguana?
I’m thinking. Still inclined to say iguana.
Trying to find a way in which E! as skum would fake this result, and I’m not coming up with anything
I mean IFFFF E! is lying, then it ends up 2v3 two days from now in a best case scenario for skum.
Today exile II
Tonight Skum kills mason 1
Tomorrow Exile E!
That night skum kills mason 2.
That leaves [Swowl, Faust, Joth, Math, Jimmm] with 2 skum in it.
We then have to exile. And we have to be right. Then skum shoots, assuming we are still playing, and it is 1v2. final day.
OTOH if it went the other way and we were to exile E! (in this case they flipping skum) that would mean there are 3 ICs in the game (masonsX2 + E!). We exile E!, thats 8. skum would kill one of them, then we would have 2v5. Lets just say town exile that day becaues that is what they would plan for, now we are at 2v4. Then they kill another IC at night. We wake up in two days from now 2v3.
Say we find skum that day, cool cool cool. Still 2v1.
All of it ends up at the same place. Why does skum E! doe this here?
Vote: Iguana
Are you EFFING kidding?
You lay out two scenarios here and you call them equal, except they are TOTALLY NOT EQUAL!
In scenario one, we misexile iguana ---> one town exile, and now we are at LyLo suddenly.
In scenario two, you add SOME RANDOM MISEXILE into the equation such that the result is we end up in the same place!
That is not a fair assessment at all! In scenario 1, I'm the misexile. In scenario 2, even though town chose right and exiled 2.7, we end up in the same place because we effed up about some other effing thing later on! So in other words, exile correctly today and we still get another chance to eff things up later!
And I'm getting exiled because of analysis like this?
That’s fair.
I was doing a kind of worst case scenario as things unfold, but yeah tomorrow’s choice does hold a lot of weight.
But to be fair, I want to exile you because of the cop result E says he has, the analysis is kind of secondary back up info that makes me just feel better about E!
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
@Swowl, why were you being stupid thinking EFHW was scum D1?
1. Because I was being stupid.
I have gone through it in a good amount of detail. Read back through my posts. I don't see 1-shot cop claiming the way he did. I'd more believe he's a full cop that lied to us about his role or he's scum. After you read back, let me know if you still have questions.
I meant with regards to iguana's flip. I don't think you've really addressed it Today; in fact early Today you listed e as your second Town read and said you wanted to believe his claim. Why would e fake a guilty result on his partner? Obviously the answer is to hopefully IC himself, but do you really think guaranteeing a scum exile is worth that? Do you now read iguana as gambiting scum as opposed to caught scum?
If I was scum, would I do something like that, in a setup like this (I've never played this dice-rolled setup before)? Probably.I think this is the crux of where your approach to this game fails. The question is not whether you would do something like that as scum, the question is whether e did.
Some questions for Swowl.What shook your confidence?
you should already know the answer to that.
Is the answer as you see it the same as the one faust gave?
no.
What answer did you have in mind here?I am VT.
Sorry for not correcting faust earlier, but I figured if we ended up not claiming all the way I would draw a kill, so I leaned into it a bit.
Did you realise before faust's guess that you could be perceived as a breadcrumbing? Did the guess surprise you?As weird as it seems, I think what is happening is skum is trying to set up a situation where they can go 1-2, as in after my flip, they can justify an easy faust exile. And yes, that annoyingly means I do not think faust is skum. Incorrect - yes. Skum - no.
I believe that enough to say that I think that after I flip VT, you all should not exile faust. At least 100% at least he should not be the next exile. I think that is what skum is going for.
So, I believe there are 2 skum in [Jimmm, Math, Joth, E!] and they are sitting pretty letting faust do the work for them.
I don't believe you've said much about faust this game. What makes you think he's Town? Who do you actually think the scum are, and what indicates they're doing what you say they are?
If I was scum, would I do something like that, in a setup like this (I've never played this dice-rolled setup before)? Probably.I think this is the crux of where your approach to this game fails. The question is not whether you would do something like that as scum, the question is whether e did.
We have 4 days until deadline, I ask for half that time (2 days) to deep dive and get thoughts out based on this.This time has passed now, can we finally do the exile please?
So that actually makes some sense. You could argue that scum chatted about this, assuming that a 1-Shot Cop claim was safe (which I think it should be according to the intended interpretation, and is also an easy assumption to make), but then after e's claim Swowl looked into it further and determined that it wasn't. If that's true it sucks for Swowl to be screwed over by an ambiguous interpretation issue.
So yeah okay. It's unfortunate, but it makes sense. I do think the interaction between mathdude and Swowl discussing the EE interpretation is something of a non-partner-slip.
I think it's pretty likely that Swowl didn't intend them as breadcrumbs.I mean, he couldn't even answer your question:
Swowl, why didn't you give reasons for your changed EFHW read when asked?
Well yeah that's a point. He did explain his change of reads.With no reason that would justify such a strong turnaround. And why he would reread EFHW at Night anyways. Personally I think that should always be scrutinized; town doesn't usually bother to reread at Night because that effort is wasted if you're killed.
I’m still leaning Swowl, although his contributions today have been quality.Is this the quality contribution?
So EOD1 makes me feel like Jimm is a either a white knight situation or a partner, math is either a hard bus or a push, and Joth is somewhere in the middle.
Noone is actually opposed to the Swowl wagon, noone has proposed a serious alternative wagon
Not particularly, no.Noone is actually opposed to the Swowl wagon, noone has proposed a serious alternative wagon
Does that concern you at all?
So who's bussing?Swowl's partner.
Well that's crazy.Helpful as always.
What are you after help with?Nothing in particular.
Oh I would like Didds to comment if you don't mind on faust. Do you share MiX's conviction that he's Town? Any more reasons from your QT that haven't made it into the thread yet?
Not Voting (3): faust, mathdude, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds
I know who I think it is, but I’d like to hear what y’all think first.
If your name isn't WestCoastDidds, you just have to figure out one other person you can trust and if you're right, we win.Well, that is not entirely true. You also have to convince the room that it's not you.
and they sure say "I'm protecting my partner" first for iguana, then "bus for the win" for Swowl.They don't though, do they? I pivoted from e to iguana in the middle of the Day, and proceeded to push both scum from then on out.
If your name isn't WestCoastDidds, you just have to figure out one other person you can trust and if you're right, we win.Well, that is not entirely true. You also have to convince the room that it's not you.
Player | faust | mathdude | Jimmmmm | joth | |
WCD/MiX | Town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879303#msg879303) | Scumpool (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879302#msg879302) | Scumpool (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879302#msg879302) | Next guess for Town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878470#msg878470) | |
e | Town core (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) | Scum (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) | Solid Town (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) | Solid Town (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) | |
EFHW | Not going to vote (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877023#msg877023) | Scummy - distorted the truth (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877793#msg877793) | Scummy (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877230#msg877230) | No opinion (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877737#msg877737) | |
gkrieg | Likely Town (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) | Very scummy (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) | Could be scum (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) | Seems Towny (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) | |
LaLight | Would love to exile (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877060#msg877060) | - | Would not love to exile (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877060#msg877060) | - |
If your name isn't WestCoastDidds, you just have to figure out one other person you can trust and if you're right, we win.Well, that is not entirely true. You also have to convince the room that it's not you.
That's why I'm feeling good about my chances.If your name isn't WestCoastDidds, you just have to figure out one other person you can trust and if you're right, we win.Well, that is not entirely true. You also have to convince the room that it's not you.
That other Town and Didds will suffice.
Someone said we don't sheep dead Townies enough. So here is what I think is the most relevant/recent read from each confirmed Town on the remaining candidates, with links to the posts.
Player faust mathdude Jimmmmm joth WCD/MiX Town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879303#msg879303) Scumpool (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879302#msg879302) Scumpool (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879302#msg879302) Next guess for Town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878470#msg878470) e Town core (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) Scum (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) Solid Town (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) Solid Town (D4) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879031#msg879031) EFHW Not going to vote (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877023#msg877023) Scummy - distorted the truth (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877793#msg877793) Scummy (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877230#msg877230) No opinion (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877737#msg877737) gkrieg Likely Town (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) Very scummy (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) Could be scum (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) Seems Towny (D2) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg878146#msg878146) LaLight Would love to exile (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877060#msg877060) - Would not love to exile (D1) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg877060#msg877060) -
Well, that's a pretty clear consensus.
I didn't make an argument. How does e's death favour me?
Faust, Joth… you’re my towncore. Mix and I both thought we’d win if we flipped Jimmm and math.I would not consider joth today but if we don't find the right exile I'd probably get paranoid the next day and would try to investigate him more closely.
Where are y’all at? Do you suspect one another at all?
Faust, Joth… you’re my towncore. Mix and I both thought we’d win if we flipped Jimmm and math.
Where are y’all at? Do you suspect one another at all?
joth, you seemed to have a pretty solid scumread on me Day 1, but then didn't really mention me again until Day 4 when you said you had a pretty strong Townread. What changed your read?
Also, how genuine was your Day 1 read, and how much was it a commitment to your "stick to a read" strategy?
I remember the first time I started to feel like “this guy’s town” was when you had a very earnest, authentic exchange with someone. I think it was faust.
Also, how genuine was your Day 1 read, and how much was it a commitment to your "stick to a read" strategy?
First iguana interaction.I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
This is sort of my take on the whole faust opinion of providing naked votes.This starts a series of posts talking about meta stuff rather than the game itself.
Some more math/iguana interaction.-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Okay now, this one seems quite telling!Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
I think I'm leaning town-ish for faust for now.This worries me. Town!math seems to always scumread me.
Iguana is the only vote I respect. He's looked at others, and decided to stick with me. It's wrong, but I respect it. And until his post just before this, it was like a tunnel, joth-like, not planning to go anywhere else (though I can no longer say that, since he's now said he's willing to move to get an exile).This sort of stuff seems designed to highlight how iguana busses math.
This is very strange, considering that he townread me at the end of D1 and had this to say about MiX:I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
Bold added for emphasis. I know my experience here is fairly limited. But I have noticed that through my games here, the dead have an above average probability of having correct reads, yet we almost never do anything about it.
I doubt we're lucky enough that LL picked 2 on D1. But between the two, I still feel MiX is town-ish, so to start the day, I'll sheep LL's faust suspicion for now.
Vote: faust
Maybe I'm just finally getting back to my usual "I always find MiX scummy", or maybe I'm onto something. At this point in my re-reads, I'd say it's MiX or Jimmmmm, but almost guaranteed not both. If MiX is town, he's misreading Jimmmmm. If MiX is scum, he went too far in his confidence that Jimmmmm is town.So it seems like he got his reads mixed up here (no pun intended).
Now this was a weird interaction at the time, and in the light of iguana's efforts at pushing math during D1 it seems like a further distancing move.Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
If someone wants to save me a little time and summarize iguana's posts through D1 and D2, that might save me a bit of time. But I will go through them for sure, as I feel he's one person I've basically ignored this game so far - probably the most active person I've ignored (I also have almost no thoughts on e or gk, since almost nothing they have said has stood out to me, other than their basically naked votes of me D1).This seems quite blatantly untrue, iguana was one of the people math interacted the most with during D1, how could he say he "ignored" iguana?
For now, I'm leaving my vote on iguana, but I'll gladly switch to gkrieg today too.Signaling support for a gkrieg exile.
And mathdude seems about ready to jump ship on iguana. It's also of note that mathdude ignores joth's vote for Swowl shortly before this.I like your wall post and I think it deserves consideration, but I wish it weren't a case on the towniest person in the game.
I disagree that he's the towniest. But like I said near the end of it... I went into it with a big gut scumread on iguana, then as I was getting through the posts, they weren't seeming near as scummy as I remembered. But I'm leaving my vote there now until he responds. I assume it will either assure me that he is scum, or it will give me a reason to move my vote.
Forget waiting.I guess this vote is unsurprising.
Vote: gkrieg
He hasn't posted in nearly 48 hours. But his profile says last active on forum at 12:34pm today. He's watching, and just hoping the wagon sways away from him. He's afraid if he says something, it will further incriminate him.
I believe that's X-1.
gkrieg hasn't said anything to convince me he's town. But he does raise some valid points on faust. I don't know if both could be scum (I guess maybe... if he's godfather, and he figures it's better to bus a goon?) But likely at least 1 of them are.mathdude is setting up a faust push for the next Day.
Of the 4 that jumped to WCD EoD, only joth and e are still alive. I still don't get why it happened. And with the other 2 votes confirmed town now, I'm not sure what the play was. Is one of them scum? Both? Could they both be town? Why would 4 town make a last minute move like that? Sure, if they absolutely know someone is scum... but otherwise, they've left us with a useless EoD, which was effectively D1 and it doesn't help today. And because of that, I feel like the move was scum-driven.Right from the start mathdude pushes an angle that is very convenient for scum!him.
I believe I'm next in line. So if 2 or 3 more people say go ahead and there's no resistance, I'll continue the claims. But if there is still hesitation, then we should probably wait.This is seems very eager to please the crowd. The Masons already said they want the massclaim, are you looking for scum's input or what?
This is very telling I feel like. "Less Ts than expected", "scum has the Strongman" - all things scum knew at the time were true.The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
Are you still on this set of beliefs for setup? Is it possible that e is a cop and there are less T's than expected? Might the scum have a strongman and they went after LL for a different reason? Or is this what you would have us believe?
I haven't decided yet. I'm leaning toward scum!e, just based on timing, the vague claim, and a few other little things. But I'm not putting a vote there yet.Pretty hedge.
I've said multiple times that I think it's almost too convenient that everything lines up for if e is lying scum. I think that's the answer, and since that will no longer put him at X-1, I willThis is at a point where iguana is at 3 votes, and the only person currently voting for e. It look pretty desperate if math is scum. Would he not have gone for the bus?
Vote: e
My list... chum to scumThis has Swowl... not quite as his first choice going into D4.
WCD - obvious
joth - nothing specific, but generally getting town vibes
e - I really want to believe the cop claim
Jim - mostly null... nothing has stood out from him since D1
Swowl - when he's here, he posts thoughtful stuff, but mostly seems to not be around or contribute much (1 week, for 1 game day... okay. But 3 and counting could be hiding)
faust - start of D3 was just way too much... seems like some hidden agenda
Maybe at this point I have a lot of bias, but this seems the kind of read that results from overreacting to your partner doing something you perceive as scummy because you already know they're scum.Swowl - when he's here, he posts thoughtful stuff, but mostly seems to not be around or contribute much (1 week, for 1 game day... okay. But 3 and counting could be hiding)this is what I mean about scum to chum lists by the way. It's D3 with a scum flip and mathdude doesn't have anything better on Swowl than "he's lurking". That's not going to help us.
Lurking through 3 full game days? That's not a fallback, or lame read. That's a scumtell. Not sure if it's one for Swowl, but I know some of my past few games, I've seen at least 1, and sometimes 2 of the scum post just enough to not get prodded, and just slide through most of the game that way. I feel Swowl's doing that here. When he does post after an absence, there were a few too many "catching up" or "just checking in, but still gone for a bit" posts for me to believe they're genuine.
But I don't agree with your conclusion... because e could be scum. If he fake-claimed guilty on partner (which I know people say is unlikely), then you all know it's actually TTTME, and there's still a possibility for the final letter to be E (another 1-shot doctor, or a real 1-shot cop), C (a real 1-shot cop), D (full doctor), or even B (roleblocker), or another T (VT). I think it's even possible e is scum and you (faust) are town and were just mistaken, while he, iguana, and their other partner are glad you jumped in hard on e so they didn't have to get as involved in the discussion.This is again pretty incriminating. From a town POV, there's no use speculating about more PRs; we had a massclaim. But scum still thinks there's some lying town out there because the letter don't match up. This theory would imply that they didn't figure out the EE stuff at Night.
So 1-shot cop doesn't make sense, based on how you presented results yesterday. Full cop makes very little sense. Scum makes more sense. Kill a partner early, get town-cred for the rest of the game, but it just didn't work out the way you were hoping.
I'm saying if e is actually town, I'd find it more believable if he's actually a full cop who lied to protect himself, than that he's telling the truth.This is further proof of that, believing that e could be a full Cop somehow.
Let's move on. Faust is right that we're getting nowhere by holding here. We're either right or we're wrong, and we won't know until a flip.Then he jumps on Swowl. The dude has been a dead man walking for a while at that point.
Vote: Swowl
X-1, I believe
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.
Like just look at Jimmmmm's recent handful of posts. He's basically finding out which of people's reads on him are genuine and which are based on strategy. He knows if you exile me today, he'll be around tomorrow and he's trying to figure out which 2 of you to keep, where at least one will vote with him against the other.
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.
I doubt they had the EE stuff figured out, so they'd have to think that there is lying town.
faust - start of D3 was just way too much... seems like some hidden agenda
I skimmed through things again at night, and I still have no idea. Absent of any further info today, I currently think it's faust - the shenanigans D3 with e's claim swung my opinion then, but I'm looking at his posts now in light of Swowl's (and iguana's) flips, and they sure say "I'm protecting my partner" first for iguana, then "bus for the win" for Swowl.
Although when I saw the Swowl flip I thought maybe e was a full Cop. Which must be part of why they killed him instead of Didds.IDK. I mean e didn't share any more results, that's a pretty clear indication that he wasn't a full Cop. After Swowl died he was every bit as much IC as Didds, so which of those they killed didn't matter apart from WIFOMing and killing the more dangerous one.
I don't think he did, going by this:I doubt they had the EE stuff figured out, so they'd have to think that there is lying town.
Swowl had the same EE interpretation as Dylan, and was just assuming it was true. So Swowl at least didn't think there was lying Town. I'm inclined to think it wasn't discussed in the QT, so who knows what other scum thought.
this is incorrect.. EE is 2x of 1 shot doc OR 1shot cop x2He seemed to think it's 2 of either 1-shot Doc or 1-shot Cop, but not that it could be just a single 1-shot Doc.
joth has already stated that "The scenario where faust is scum at this point is an insane conspiracy theory that doesn’t really bare serious consideration."
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.Like just look at Jimmmmm's recent handful of posts. He's basically finding out which of people's reads on him are genuine and which are based on strategy. He knows if you exile me today, he'll be around tomorrow and he's trying to figure out which 2 of you to keep, where at least one will vote with him against the other.
Wait, one of these says you're not confident I'm scum, and the other says I am.
"I'm not confident you'll win" - you're not confident who will win?
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.
I’m not following you here. You think faust is the last scum?
I'm absolutely not confident it's you. It could be you or faust.Whatever happened to this:
But if it ends up being Jim or joth, it won't really surprise me.(emphasis mine)
Getting to work now... I have a few more thoughts to post, but they have to wait for lunch.The one thing I am sad about with the "exile" wording is that we can no longer make lunch jokes.
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.Like just look at Jimmmmm's recent handful of posts. He's basically finding out which of people's reads on him are genuine and which are based on strategy. He knows if you exile me today, he'll be around tomorrow and he's trying to figure out which 2 of you to keep, where at least one will vote with him against the other.
Wait, one of these says you're not confident I'm scum, and the other says I am.
"I'm not confident you'll win" - you're not confident who will win?
I'm absolutely not confident it's you. It could be you or faust.
If you're scum, you're likely dead tomorrow since it sounds like any 2 of faust, joth, and WCD wil vote for you. But I've already seen in your posts today that you're subtly trying to figure out your next angle... which one of them will consider someone other than you tomorrow.
Ok faust has me convinced.
So with faust and e in my towncore...
The scenario where faust is scum at this point is an insane conspiracy theory that doesn’t really bare serious consideration.
Faust's math case has me pretty sold.
I would not consider joth today but if we don't find the right exile I'd probably get paranoid the next day and would try to investigate him more closely.
The worse part is if you're town. If they vote me out today, they're already locked on you tomorrow. (I'm in the same boat if we exile you today and you aren't scum... but at least I'm trying to put some info out there to make the "town core" reread and reconsider tonight).
I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.
I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.
I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
Although when I saw the Swowl flip I thought maybe e was a full Cop. Which must be part of why they killed him instead of Didds.
I'm absolutely not confident it's you. It could be you or faust.Whatever happened to this:But if it ends up being Jim or joth, it won't really surprise me.(emphasis mine)
Although when I saw the Swowl flip I thought maybe e was a full Cop. Which must be part of why they killed him instead of Didds.
Scum-slip?
plus, today he just looks like he's setting up for who to kill tonight.
Re: Jimmmmm's comments about sometimes I'm "not sure" and other times I post as if I'm sure it's him...
I'm not sure. Any post which seems to have confidence or 1-target tunneling should be prefaced with:
"If you are the skum, here's the narrative I see that others should also consider"
But I've been mobile posting almost this whole game day. So I figure an argument about why Jimmmmm is likely scum shouldn't need the full preamble.
plus, today he just looks like he's setting up for who to kill tonight.
This is madness. Didds will be killed Tonight.
today he just looks like he's setting up for who to kill tonight.
Didds will be killed Tonight.
Of course she will. If you get me exiled tonight (at this point, votes from you, faust, and possibly joth seem most likely), you wouldn't want her still around tomorrow to vote for you again tomorrow.
No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.
I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
Plus it's kind of hard to stay motivated when the IC completely ignores what you're saying.No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.
I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
Plus it's kind of hard to stay motivated when the IC completely ignores what you're saying.No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.
I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
So all in all... math is incredibly scummy. I came into this thinking Jimmmmm was the more likely scum, now I've changed my mind. I will still reread Jimmmmm of course, who know maybe he was even more scummy.
Is there anything I can address for you Didds?
I’m not completely ignoring what you’re saying, and I apologize if I seem to be disengaged with you. When I read your math reread synopsis, it seemed to me that it mostly boiled down to the scummmiest thing he has done is continue to suspect you and/or lack a concrete opinion. Joth followed this up with an unhelpful “yep, seems about right”I guess this is due to it being a reread rather than a proper case, but these are definitely not the things I wanted people to take away from it. But still I don't really know where it is coming from. I barely even mentioned math suspecting me, and in fact that suspicion was a major factor in why I didn't find him that scummy before starting the reread.
This is very telling I feel like. "Less Ts than expected", "scum has the Strongman" - all things scum knew at the time were true.The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have
E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl
There isn't room for another Cop.
Are you still on this set of beliefs for setup? Is it possible that e is a cop and there are less T's than expected? Might the scum have a strongman and they went after LL for a different reason? Or is this what you would have us believe?
And at the end of it all, you concluded withIt not unfair, but I thought that my vote for math came with the implication that my mind was made up. This post that mathdude made is a major scumslip in my eyes:So all in all... math is incredibly scummy. I came into this thinking Jimmmmm was the more likely scum, now I've changed my mind. I will still reread Jimmmmm of course, who know maybe he was even more scummy.
So, I think it’s a fair question to ask if your plans had changed.
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.Using "you" instead of "we" when referring to town, planning two exiles ahead - that is scum stuff. Town should think that there is a decent chance to get a win today, scum can only win with 2 misexiles.
I haven’t had time to do a reread of Jimmmm so my feeling about him at the moment is based on how he has interacted with folks this games, lots of questions, few conclusions, and how low key he’s been in response to pressure. It’s very pro. I’m all thinking about the LL kill N1 which seems like a pro move. Finally, when I was scum with math in the dwarf game, he was all about bussing and being suspicious of his buddies, and I’m not sure he’s done that here. But this is all thoughts and feels, which isn’t much to base a case on.See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.
See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.
See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.
I see him voting for them, but not skewering them like he did when he was actively trying to create distance.
At the end of day, it really doesn't matter where I am at. If faust and Joth thinks its mathdude, then that is what will happen.
I am leading us down?
Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.Oh yeah, and now a policy vote! I'm sure that is going to move the game forward.
I was about to write a snarky response, but it's no use escalating this. I do not deny that there are things that I refuse to talk about. I am sure that there are things that you refuse to talk about, too, otherwise you would tell me your role now. The only difference is where we draw the line. i am willing to discuss some things when I feel it is beneficial to discuss them. Someone I think is scum wanting to know is not grounds for me to change my mind though.I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
You can respond if you want. But I was more interested in other people's opinions of your meta. As has already been mentioned this thread (regarding faust or joth, I forget which)... when someone knows their own meta well enough to comment on it, it does seem to make it NAI. But if you can tell me which of those options (or another option) it is, that can help, I guess.
Yeah I agree with that sentiment, but I'll weigh in.
I don't think level of effort is particularly alignment-indicative for me. I might be slightly less likely to be lurky as scum overall, because I feel a responsibility to my teammate/s. But I've definitely had games both ways in which I've put in a lot of effort. The problem is that when I fall behind I have a really hard time catching up.
I think as scum under pressure my goal is generally to ignore the pressure and try to emulate my Town self by doing productive-looking re-reads etc. I don't recall ever OMGUSing or going hard after someone because they were going hard after me as scum.
If I was scum in this game, I would feel the same about faust's strategy but I highly doubt I would have argued with him anywhere near as much as I have.
because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
Nothing about my game has been careful. I am definitely capable of playing the careful scum game. Picking a fight with faust of all people is not the way to do that.
I'm inclined to think mathdude is Town. He had a very similar reaction to joth as I did, and I'm not sure that it's a reaction that someone who knew joth's alignment would have.I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which.it's either really Towny or really scummy, and I can't put my finger on which.
(Even though my post is immediately after mathdude's, I hadn't actually read his post properly until after the Day was over.)
So Swowl, you're basing your vote on joth, who you fairly recently said you didn't think was scum, on the assumption that the wagons weren't Town v Town and the unconfirmed alignments of those on the wagons?
You would make a great lawyer.
Yes, that is what I am saying. It was also day 1, so there were no confirmed alignments.
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
We're talking the difference between probable and possible. Discussions so far today have been focused on what's stated as "probable". It would be tough to crunch numbers on such a situation, since it's not perfectly random, independent events. We're talking interactions, teammates, time zones and online times, etc.
Probable is helpful D1, especially toward end of day. And if we don't sort stuff out through 5 or 6 days in D2, maybe we look back at "probable" EoD2 as well. But tunneling on it for 7 days is not helpful.
Let's look at what else is possible. Open up the conversation. I'll leave my vote for now - because it's possible he's scum. I don't know yet how probable, but that will likely sort itself out over the next couple days.
I'm not talking about possible vs probable. Anything that I don't know to be impossible is possible. "Certain" may have been the wrong word - I meant "consider sufficiently probable". I'm not convinced that Swowl's theory is more probable than random, let alone sufficiently probable. And I also have to weigh it against the fact that I think mathdude and joth are each some amount more likely than average to be Town.
Unsurprisingly, I think joth makes some good points about Swowl, but I was like, "Does scum actually do that?" That is, come out as Swowl did Day 2, without acknowledgement of his prior post about joth.
I thought a bit more about the no-exile. Generally, Town wants to exile unless there's a reason not to. So how does scum feel about it if the main wagons are TvT? Would they rather make sure one of them goes through, or are they happier with the no-exile? With a no-exile, they get a free kill (offset by any Cops Town might have), but risk coming out worse if Day 2 results in a successful exile. But if those same TvT wagons come up again, they're laughing.
Then I realised, this is exactly what Swowl was pushing. And increasing their activity by advocating a theory-based exile makes sense for a lurky scum who knows they need to start contributing more but isn't sure what reads they can justify.
I'm not suggesting scum purposefully allowed a no-exile; I don't see the evidence for that. But if it was TvT, which I'm inclined to think is likely, scum definitely want people to assume it wasn't.
Vote: Swowl
Quick rundown of remaining candidates:
Swowl/faust - My biggest suspects. Will take some further re-reading to determine whether faust is likely to bus his partner Swowl in the way he did Yesterday.
math/joth - I've been of the belief that each of these is Town, but PoE may call for me to rethink that.
e - Most likely Town.
Okay I have to say, the faust/joth discussion is doing a pretty good job of convincing me that it's Swowl/math. It's hard to shake the nagging "It can't be that easy" feeling, but that definitely seems to be the Occam's razor solution.
There have been a few people say to continue. So let's continue the claims.
I'm VT. That's why near EoD2 I said it would be better to exile me than to end up with another no exile day... there were enough opinions about me that hopefully it would have helped solve some things.
Wait, are you claiming UB?
I tried to save Didds the night MiX died since EFHW hadn't used the 1-shot save yet.
I was VT after the save was used, so there was no need to claim it at that point.
Yeah nah there's no Town reason for this. Intent to vote mathdude.
I tried to save Didds the night MiX died since EFHW hadn't used the 1-shot save yet.I was VT after the save was used, so there was no need to claim it at that point.
You claimed VT Day 3, while MiX was still alive.
Would you have claimed VT if you were had rolled 1-Shot Doctor and still had your shot?
Lol yeah. No way town doesn't claim UB because that casts serious doubt on the Mason claim. Yet at no point was mathdude implying that the Masons could be lying.
Can we exile and win now please?
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
Fair enough. I guess I read "most townie of all townies" as "is town". But it doesn't say that. You're right. I take back a bit of the shade I was throwing at e.
Scumslip and also Jimmmmm is town.
Maybe we should just flip math...yesterday...sigh...
The more I read this game the less I want to play it.
I like how you keep hedging on where to go next. Calling out partners and teams. We don't even know which way to look until we sort out which of e and iguana is scum. So rather than help the undecided find the truth about e's claim, you keep focusing on things that are less relevant to today's vote.
If you weren't Mason, it'd be too easy to call you scum.
WTF?? So, mathdude, you skipped claiming in the mass claim because you still had a shot left? And you waited until now to tell us about it? Am I following that right?
It just doesn't make sense, trying to hide information and lie in his claim.
This wonderful statement is made 5 hours before mathdude's VT claim.It just doesn't make sense, trying to hide information and lie in his claim.
I wanna hammer so bad.
I hope mathdude is scum because tomorrow is going to be a real challenge if he isn't!
Especially with that dagger in the back from my best friend WCD :P
But I'm pretty confident this is going to end well for us. And soon!
He seemed to think it might save him, which seems odd regardless.He wanted to provide an explanation for why he knew scum had a Strongman before Swowl flipped.
This wonderful statement is made 5 hours before mathdude's VT claim.It just doesn't make sense, trying to hide information and lie in his claim.
Okay, here’s what I think. I don’t think Jimmm is scum. But I also don’t really think mathdude is either. I reread D5 since that is where I left off last night and Joth has been the most scummy today. So, that is shaking my sense of towncore. But I also think it is too late in the day to completely shift gears.
So, I’ll hammer math but if it’s not over y’all figure it out tonight, okay?
vote: math
so... you scum?And yes. Good game all. So close to getting into final 3.
so... you scum?And yes. Good game all. So close to getting into final 3.
Also, I probably would not have killed the IC tonight... whether we had exiled Jimmmmm or even if we had swung over to joth. I think Didds was the most likely to side with me out of anyone, so I would have just had to figure out who she would have been more likely to vote for tomorrow.
Jimmmm, the thing that convinced me most that you weren’t scum was your spreadsheet. So, your effort paid off!!
Jimmmm, the thing that convinced me most that you weren’t scum was your spreadsheet. So, your effort paid off!!
I totally would have done something like that as scum. But I guess maybe Jimmmmm wouldn't have?
If we get copped, we get copped.
No one copped us tho good vibes all around.
I won't claim I copped Math if someone claims they copped me first. So yeah I guess claiming later is best for me.
It's been a bit since I've won as town AND survived to the end.I feel you! I can't remember the last game this happened for me. Probably like one of those 9-player games with 2 scum and a perfect town win.
It's been a bit since I've won as town AND survived to the end.I feel you! I can't remember the last game this happened for me. Probably like one of those 9-player games with 2 scum and a perfect town win.
Feels even better to win knowing that the game was kind of stacked against you. Though in a weird way I also feel scum got a bit screwed over by the setup ambiguity.
I would like to also read the Mason QT btw.
I would like to also read the Mason QT btw.
It feels super awesome when you actually end up being right.
.......Except I have an abysmal track record of actually being right
This game is great. I'm reading all of it again.It feels super awesome when you actually end up being right.
.......Except I have an abysmal track record of actually being right
This aged very well. It's hard to overestimate e's impact on this game.
sheeeshhhhh
good game. Super swingy day 3 and obviously just meh - but props to town for getting it right 1-2-3 in a row.
thanks for the game Dylan!
Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
I will not underestimate iguana again.
Thanks for all your modding effort Dylan.
Jimmmm, the thing that convinced me most that you weren’t scum was your spreadsheet. So, your effort paid off!!
Jimmmm, the thing that convinced me most that you weren’t scum was your spreadsheet. So, your effort paid off!!
Not gonna lie, I was a bit disappointed when you didn't comment on the second one. A Townread is even better though! What about it was Towny? MiX thought it was scummy.
I have no idea how MiX decides what is towny or not. He is an an enigma.
I only commented on the first one, but my admiration applied to both! It was clear to me that this is how you keep your notes and I don’t think you would share that level of detail. Also, it is actually helpful as opposed to a mammoth post filled with information that doesn’t actually help anyone draw conclusions. So, a combination of level of effort combined with quality of information.
Jokes aside, I think it should've said "lol math was scumread by everyone, maybe he's just scum?" or some conclusion with words. Making people get that conclusion by themselves makes it harder for them to look at the "data" (which is just one post that you chost seemingly arbitrarily) objectively.
I'm going to be honest, I'm so glad town won so that being gimped by my interpretation of the EE roll didn't cost them... Turns out all you need is a 1-shot cop to turn the tide lol
Hooray! Good game everyone.
Props to faust. I can't argue with your results.
Dylan, this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20873.msg879090#msg879090) should probably just have read something like "I interpret it as [A] or [C]." At the time I read it as confirmation that EE wasn't rolled. More importantly, it seems to be confirmation that the question wasn't asked in the scum QT. Which is a bit awkward because it feels like it wouldn't be right to make arguments based on that.
I'm going to be honest, I'm so glad town won so that being gimped by my interpretation of the EE roll didn't cost them... Turns out all you need is a 1-shot cop to turn the tide lol
Agreed that town missed a PR because of the EE roll. They should have had another 1-shot cop or 1-shot doc.
But I do think it actually cost us, as scum, even worse. We expected T or TT based on our roles. So we figured 4 or 5 PRs (something like full cop is equivalent to 2). When only 3 came up in massclaim (ECM), I expected a hidden UB, that e was full cop, or someone else who lied. Because of that, I pushed for it, said more than I otherwise would have, and got caught partly because of things I said - and that was my mistake. That's also why I had to ask for setup clarification publicly, to start justifying why I said the things I did and setup how and when I would add my fake-claim (from the moment iguana didn't claim cop, I started planning the claim that I ended up making too late).
Overall, still a good game. I just wish e had actually been a full cop... then ECCMTT would have made sense.
sheeeshhhhh
good game. Super swingy day 3 and obviously just meh - but props to town for getting it right 1-2-3 in a row.
thanks for the game Dylan!
This completely slayed me:
"WCD - Need to re read to a PR extent. Should be noted there is like a 50% chance I do something out of character without knowing it and she picks up on it and just tunnels the absolute balls out of me."
Welp, that sure went sideways for our team. Oh well, scum with Swowl and Math was still loads of fun.
As you can see in the scum QT, Swowl never intended to fakeclaim cop or do any kind of breadcrumb. It was my intention to fakeclaim an innocent result on Mathdude. I breadcrumbed it a few times when I was arguing with MiX about his changed read on Math.
But when we went into D3, there was a guilty result on me, and then faust made his argument that Swowl was IC for breadcrumbing a result on EFHW, I thought we just need to roll with this. So by claiming VT, I was attempting to pass the PR claim over to Swowl. Of course Swowl was seeing (correctly) that there was no room for another 1-shot cop, and I was seeing it incorrectly that there was still room. So if I had known that, I probably would have went ahead and claimed 1-shot cop because I was in a 1v1 anyway.
I don't agree. Cop results are still valuable even if they're innocent results. Having another IC in this game would have done a lot for us. (Obviously there's Godfather, so innocent results are slightly worse, but still good.)I'm going to be honest, I'm so glad town won so that being gimped by my interpretation of the EE roll didn't cost them... Turns out all you need is a 1-shot cop to turn the tide lol
Agreed that town missed a PR because of the EE roll. They should have had another 1-shot cop or 1-shot doc.
But I do think it actually cost us, as scum, even worse. We expected T or TT based on our roles. So we figured 4 or 5 PRs (something like full cop is equivalent to 2). When only 3 came up in massclaim (ECM), I expected a hidden UB, that e was full cop, or someone else who lied. Because of that, I pushed for it, said more than I otherwise would have, and got caught partly because of things I said - and that was my mistake. That's also why I had to ask for setup clarification publicly, to start justifying why I said the things I did and setup how and when I would add my fake-claim (from the moment iguana didn't claim cop, I started planning the claim that I ended up making too late).
Overall, still a good game. I just wish e had actually been a full cop... then ECCMTT would have made sense.
Yeah, the benefit of having say extra Cop shots is an increased likelihood of getting a guilty result. The fact that we got one from our only shot means that we really weren't hurt by it.
I'm curious, if it was not a crumb, then what was that EFHW read about?
I don't agree. Cop results are still valuable even if they're innocent results. Having another IC in this game would have done a lot for us. (Obviously there's Godfather, so innocent results are slightly worse, but still good.)I'm going to be honest, I'm so glad town won so that being gimped by my interpretation of the EE roll didn't cost them... Turns out all you need is a 1-shot cop to turn the tide lol
Agreed that town missed a PR because of the EE roll. They should have had another 1-shot cop or 1-shot doc.
But I do think it actually cost us, as scum, even worse. We expected T or TT based on our roles. So we figured 4 or 5 PRs (something like full cop is equivalent to 2). When only 3 came up in massclaim (ECM), I expected a hidden UB, that e was full cop, or someone else who lied. Because of that, I pushed for it, said more than I otherwise would have, and got caught partly because of things I said - and that was my mistake. That's also why I had to ask for setup clarification publicly, to start justifying why I said the things I did and setup how and when I would add my fake-claim (from the moment iguana didn't claim cop, I started planning the claim that I ended up making too late).
Overall, still a good game. I just wish e had actually been a full cop... then ECCMTT would have made sense.
Yeah, the benefit of having say extra Cop shots is an increased likelihood of getting a guilty result. The fact that we got one from our only shot means that we really weren't hurt by it.
But I also think it's hard to play when your information doesn't match the public information and you can't talk about it. I'm not sure who was worse off there.
I don't agree. Cop results are still valuable even if they're innocent results. Having another IC in this game would have done a lot for us. (Obviously there's Godfather, so innocent results are slightly worse, but still good.)
I think this highlights some issues with the setup. The way Dylan interpreted the setup was clearly unbalanced, but it's not like the intended interpretation was balanced either. 2 1-shot Docs are clearly a lot worse than 2 1-shot Cops.
But that sort of defeats the purpose of the E category; I think the main reason for including it was to make the game less solvable, so you couldn't say e.g. "we know a 1-shot Doc flipped, so there must also be a full Doc".I think this highlights some issues with the setup. The way Dylan interpreted the setup was clearly unbalanced, but it's not like the intended interpretation was balanced either. 2 1-shot Docs are clearly a lot worse than 2 1-shot Cops.
There's clearly a fair bit of intended balance variance in the setup. Eg between TT and T Town gets an extra PR and scum gets nothing. I guess it comes down to your personal balance variance thresholds. Maybe it would be better if E was full Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop.
Unrelated thought: I think with Doctors (particularly 1-Shot), it's better early on to be at an even number to give them a chance to bring us back up to odd. Which means the no-exile was particularly bad, in theory at least.In general, I'd agree. In this setup, it seems pretty hard for a Doctor to successfully prevent a kill. And of course, there's no guarantee that a Doctor exists in the first place.
I think this highlights some issues with the setup. The way Dylan interpreted the setup was clearly unbalanced, but it's not like the intended interpretation was balanced either. 2 1-shot Docs are clearly a lot worse than 2 1-shot Cops.
This, and the Masons don't work. When town gets more PRs, the idea is that scum gets more powers to counter them. But there is no counter to Masons.
Unrelated thought: I think with Doctors (particularly 1-Shot), it's better early on to be at an even number to give them a chance to bring us back up to odd. Which means the no-exile was particularly bad, in theory at least.In general, I'd agree. In this setup, it seems pretty hard for a Doctor to successfully prevent a kill. And of course, there's no guarantee that a Doctor exists in the first place.
Unrelated thought: I think with Doctors (particularly 1-Shot), it's better early on to be at an even number to give them a chance to bring us back up to odd. Which means the no-exile was particularly bad, in theory at least.
No exile is always bad, but it's much worse in an odd start game.
No exile is always bad, but it's much worse in an odd start game.
You're right of course; 13 is far better than 12. But I'm suggesting that 12 is a fair bit better than 11 because of the chance that we'll still be 11 on Day 2 (or etc down the line).
EFHW! Despite the fact that it wrong, and I don't think I would do what you were arguing as scum, I really liked your case on me. I thought it was easily the best Day 1 case and was a bit surprised you didn't push it further.
I'm curious, if it was not a crumb, then what was that EFHW read about?