Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Topic started by: Jimmmmm on November 21, 2012, 07:25:41 am
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Masons and Monks
Player List
1. Eevee
2. mcmcsalot
3. Robz888
4. ashersky
5. Qvist
6. jotheonah
7. yuma
8. Archetype
9. Lekkit
10. Insomniac
11. Grujah
12. EFHW
13. Morgrim7
Backup mod: Cuzz
Base Setup
2 Mafia Goons
2 Werewolves
9 Townies
Mechanics
Daystart
2 players who are not Mafia are randomly selected to be Masons.
2 players who are not Werewolves are randomly selected to be Monks.
Those masonries are allowed to talk together at night.
It is possible for a Mafia Goon to be a Monk, and likewise, a Werewolf to be a Mason.
Mafia cannot have both the Monk roles, and Werewolves cannot have both Mason roles.
One Mason will be randomly selected to be a 1-shot Detective whose result will be Mafia/non-Mafia.
One Monk will be randomly selected to be a 1-shot Seer whose result will be Werewolf/non-Werewolf.
The Detective and the Seer are not necessarily Town-aligned.
Role PMs
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Vanilla Townie.
Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated and there is at least one Town player alive.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Town Mason, along with your Mason partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
You know that your partner is not aligned with the Mafia.
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated and there is at least one Town player alive.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Town Mason Detective, along with your Mason partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
You know that your partner is not aligned with the Mafia.
Once during one Night Phase, you may investigate another player via mod PM to learn whether they are aligned with the Mafia.
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated and there is at least one Town player alive.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Town Monk, along with your Monk partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
You know that your partner is not aligned with the Werewolves.
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated and there is at least one Town player alive.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Town Monk Seer, along with your Monk partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
You know that your partner is not aligned with the Werewolves.
Once during one Night Phase, you may investigate another player via mod PM to learn whether they are aligned with the Werewolves.
You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated and there is at least one Town player alive.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Mafia Goon, along with your Mafia partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each night phase, one of you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
You win when the Werewolves are eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Mafia Monk, along with your Mafia partner, [PlayerName], and your Monk partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your Mafia partner here: [QuickTopic link], and your Monk partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each Night Phase, one of you or your Mafia partner may perform the factional kill.
You know that your Monk partner is not aligned with the Werewolves.
You win when the Werewolves are eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Mafia Monk Seer, along with your Mafia partner, [PlayerName], and your Monk partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your Mafia partner here: [QuickTopic link], and your Monk partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each Night Phase, one of you or your Mafia partner may perform the factional kill.
You know that your Monk partner is not aligned with the Werewolves.
Once during one Night Phase, you may investigate another player via mod PM to learn whether they are aligned with the Werewolves.
You win when the Werewolves are eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Werewolf, along with your Werewolf partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each Night Phase, one of you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
You win when the Mafia is eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Werewolf Mason, along with your Werewolf partner, [PlayerName], and your Mason partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your Werewolf partner here: [QuickTopic link], and your Mason partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each Night Phase, one of you or your Werewolf partner may perform the factional kill.
You know that your Monk partner is not aligned with the Mafia.
You win when the Mafia is eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Welcome, [PlayerName]. You are a Werewolf Mason Detective, along with your Werewolf partner, [PlayerName], and your Mason partner, [PlayerName].
During each Night Phase you may talk with your Werewolf partner here: [QuickTopic link], and your Mason partner here: [QuickTopic link].
Each Night Phase, one of you or your Werewolf partner may perform the factional kill.
You know that your Monk partner is not aligned with the Mafia.
Once during one Night Phase, you may investigate another player via mod PM to learn whether they are aligned with the Mafia.
You win when the Mafia is eliminated and you control half the Town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
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Mafia Ruleset (blatantly stolen from Axxle)
Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members All roles with a quicktopic may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 2 week lynch deadlines and 48-hour night deadlines, extended at my discretion for weekends and holidays.
This game will have NO Day deadlines. Instead, Town will have exactly 6 weeks to win the game, including 48-hour nights. If there is still living scum after six weeks, Town will immediately lose, and one or both of the scum teams will win or draw, depending on which has more living members. If any given night takes significantly longer than 48 hours, time will be added to compensate.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
10. If there are no living players remaining, everyone laments in shared defeat.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
8. No QT links are to be shared with any other player. So for example if a member of the Mafia is also a Monk, he is not allowed to share the Monk QT link with his Mafia partner. Real or fake quoting of players (not mods) from QTs is acceptable.
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Helpful Links:
- Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
- Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
- Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
- Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
- Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
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I'd play!
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Great! Any questions/comments about the setup?
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Great! Any questions/comments about the setup?
Looks like mafia is very underpowered actually. 12 player game with 6 IC's after all.
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Of course I'd play
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You're probably right. What about this: when a Masonry Leader is killed (by lynching, or by nightkill, or maybe both? Edit: certainly at least by nightkill if any) the other Leader goes with him. That could deter everyone from coming out as leaders.
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You're probably right. What about this: when a Masonry Leader is killed (by lynching, or by nightkill, or maybe both? Edit: certainly at least by nightkill if any) the other Leader goes with him. That could deter everyone from coming out as leaders.
It would still get totally degenerate. Just think of the implications, town couldnt afford a single mislynch. I'd say the only chance a townie has in a setup where mafia effectively gets a double kill each night is teaming up with the spy in his masonry in the hopes of him backstabbing the mafia family and playing for the masonry win.
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Interested, but honestly have no idea if I will play then or not. Just depends on how busy I am in other games/RL at that time.
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In.
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So the masonries have their own separate win conditions in addition to town and mafia? Seems like weird things could happen like mafia nightkilling another mafia to eliminate the last other masonry.
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Here's a slight tweak to the idea, that might work (haven't thought it through completely):
Each masonry has 1 leader, confirmed as town to the rest of the masonry.
A masonry wins if it kills the other 2 leaders.
Scum win if they control half the town.
Town wins if the eliminate all scum.
Scum requires a majority vote (or maybe unanimous vote?) in order to do the night-kill.
I think you would have potential for bussing in order to secure a masonic win, you have ICs that don't necessarily want to claim, all in all could make for an interesting game.
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Here's a slight tweak to the idea, that might work (haven't thought it through completely):
Each masonry has 1 leader, confirmed as town to the rest of the masonry.
A masonry wins if it kills the other 2 leaders.
Scum win if they control half the town.
Town wins if the eliminate all scum.
Scum requires a majority vote (or maybe unanimous vote?) in order to do the night-kill.
I think you would have potential for bussing in order to secure a masonic win, you have ICs that don't necessarily want to claim, all in all could make for an interesting game.
That would be excellent. I second this idea.
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Here's a slight tweak to the idea, that might work (haven't thought it through completely):
Each masonry has 1 leader, confirmed as town to the rest of the masonry.
A masonry wins if it kills the other 2 leaders.
Scum win if they control half the town.
Town wins if the eliminate all scum.
Scum requires a majority vote (or maybe unanimous vote?) in order to do the night-kill.
I think you would have potential for bussing in order to secure a masonic win, you have ICs that don't necessarily want to claim, all in all could make for an interesting game.
So 3 Masonries, 4 People each? + 1 Mafia QT
They would each have:
1 Mason Leader (Town)
2 Vanilla Masons (Town)
1 Mafia Goon (Mafia)
Or is it:
4 Masonries, 3 People Each
3 Town Masonries
1 Mafia Masonry
Town Masonries:
1 Mason Leader
2 Mason Followers (Town)
Mafia Masonry:
1 Mafia Leader
2 Mason Followers (Mafia)
I think I like the second option better.
You could even assign each mason a letter (A, B, C). When a Mason Follower (let's call him Bob) dies, the letter of the mason he was from is shown (let's say A), but NOT his alignment. When the Mason leader (Jim) dies, the alignment of all members of that masonry is shown (so, Jim is killed. He was Mason Leader of Mason A, and his alignment is town).
This shows that Bob is dead, but town. It also means that the remaining member of that masonry is an Innocent Child (unless someone counter claims Mason A). But it means the last member can not win with the mason because the leader is already dead, so they must win with the town.
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needs a third-party Robzifier
i'm probably 75% joking
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\in as this sounds really cool but I'm with eevee that the initial setup seems a little bad for scum
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theorel's idea seems to keep the feel of the original setup and also sounds like it could be balanced.
I'm sorry if I sounded overly negative, Jimmm. I certainly find the idea and mechanic fascinating, just a bit hard to balance. I personally don't even mind playing imbalanced setups, but I know some people do.
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games that give the scum divided loyalties usually wind up not being as fun as they sound
just speaking from experience here
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theorel's idea sounds good and I'm happy to go with that if that's what people think would be best.
Here's another thought I've had, following cayvie's advice.
3 masonries.
Each one consists of a Leader, two Townies and one Mafia.
The two "Vanilla" Townies know who the Leader is.
Leaders have a slight advantage, such as the tie-breakers at deadline and/or Power Roles (Cop, Doctor etc).
Each Leader can name a Successor from the masonry who becomes the new Leader if the current Leader is killed. (This could end up being Mafia)
When the Successor is killed, (or the original Leader if they haven't named a Successor), the masonry is disbanded.
A Leader can also choose to disband the masonry.
Townies win if their masonry is still intact and all Mafia are dead.
Mafia win if they control half the town or all masonries are disbanded.
Each Leader and the Mafia may name one person to "Invite". If the named person is a "Vanilla" Townie and finds themself without a masonry because theirs has been disbanded, any invitations from the other masonries or from the Mafia are sent to them, and they join (they cannot be in more than one masonry, but they can be in the Mafia and a masonry). If no invitations are sent, they have nowhere to turn to and leave the town (and the game).
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theorel's idea sounds good and I'm happy to go with that if that's what people think would be best.
Here's another thought I've had, following cayvie's advice.
3 masonries.
Each one consists of a Leader, two Townies and one Mafia.
The two "Vanilla" Townies know who the Leader is.
Leaders have a slight advantage, such as the tie-breakers at deadline and/or Power Roles (Cop, Doctor etc).
Each Leader can name a Successor from the masonry who becomes the new Leader if the current Leader is killed. (This could end up being Mafia)
When the Successor is killed, (or the original Leader if they haven't named a Successor), the masonry is disbanded.
A Leader can also choose to disband the masonry.
Townies win if their masonry is still intact and all Mafia are dead.
Mafia win if they control half the town or all masonries are disbanded.
Each Leader and the Mafia may name one person to "Invite". If the named person is a "Vanilla" Townie and finds themself without a masonry because theirs has been disbanded, any invitations from the other masonries or from the Mafia are sent to them, and they join (they cannot be in more than one masonry, but they can be in the Mafia and a masonry). If no invitations are sent, they have nowhere to turn to and leave the town (and the game).
That would kinda hoop the mafia wouldn't it? Each masonry could have a claiming scheme where they decide who should name the leader in order. If the first guess is a mafia player they've got a 1/3 chance of guessing correctly. If they fail they get lynched. If a town player goes first then there's a 50% chance that they can guess who of the remaining two players is mafia in the masonry. I think this favours town way too much. It's not a huge loss to lose the leader. If you're trading an IC or a PR for a mafia player that's usually a good trade for town, and the leader being able to just pass on their leadership means there's little loss to the leader being outed.
If there were no Successors then there'd be some incentive to actually keep the leader a secret, though. If there's 3 masonries than mafia could easily need to make 6 kills of the various leaders to win. One for each leader and one for each Successor. That's enough kills that in most games they'll have to win the normal way, but they'll be at a significant disadvantage.
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Thanks for the feedback. To tilt it back towards Mafia, we could have a night start and/or the VTs don't know who the Leader is?
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Thanks for the feedback. To tilt it back towards Mafia, we could have a night start and/or the VTs don't know who the Leader is?
Then they're just neighbourhoods aren't they? Although I guess a masonry with a mafia in it isn't really a true masonry in the strictest sense anyways.
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Yeah I guess you're right. The whole idea here initially was to have a masonry within a masonry (2 people who could PM each other). I guess I'll probably just end up doing something a lot simpler.
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Interesting, but I think the QTs become way more important that the actual game thread. You end up trying to game your night talk to prep for votes during the day. And how do you convince masons from other groups to vote for someone in your mason, when you want to kill off the other groups?
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Here are some mason-based open set-ups:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Masons_and_Mafia
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Masons_and_Monks
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Friends_and_Enemies
That last one has variations.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=True_Love
Different from Jimmmm's original suggestion, but still about masons.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=True_Love
Different from Jimmmm's original suggestion, but still about masons.
Looks fun. Sort of surprised to see all mafia wins.
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So I think I'm going to run Masons and Monks. Thanks to ashersky for the suggestion.
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/in. This setup looks cool.
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in in in in! :)
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Innnnnnn
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man, is this going to be the third basic mafia game to start before mine, despite mine being in the queue before?
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I'm unsurprised to see all mafia wins. What benefit does the town have? They don't have any PRs, just a bunch of people who die in duplicate. Daychat with a maybscum is pretty unhelpful, from town perspective. Whereas daychat between scum is super helpful.
I mean, I'd play it, but that's a tough town setup.
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I'm unsurprised to see all mafia wins. What benefit does the town have? They don't have any PRs, just a bunch of people who die in duplicate. Daychat with a maybscum is pretty unhelpful, from town perspective. Whereas daychat between scum is super helpful.
I mean, I'd play it, but that's a tough town setup.
I agree. A random Townie should get a 1-shot PR of some kind.
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man, is this going to be the third basic mafia game to start before mine, despite mine being in the queue before?
I think that games should only be able to jump ahead in the queue only when other players in front of them have OK'd them going ahead of them.
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I'm unsurprised to see all mafia wins. What benefit does the town have? They don't have any PRs, just a bunch of people who die in duplicate. Daychat with a maybscum is pretty unhelpful, from town perspective. Whereas daychat between scum is super helpful.
I mean, I'd play it, but that's a tough town setup.
I agree. A random Townie should get a 1-shot PR of some kind.
The lover setup isn't the one we are playing though.
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I'm unsurprised to see all mafia wins. What benefit does the town have? They don't have any PRs, just a bunch of people who die in duplicate. Daychat with a maybscum is pretty unhelpful, from town perspective. Whereas daychat between scum is super helpful.
I mean, I'd play it, but that's a tough town setup.
I agree. A random Townie should get a 1-shot PR of some kind.
The lover setup isn't the one we are playing though.
Yes, I know. We're playing Masons and Monks. I still think a Townie should get a PR of some kind.
Maybe a random townie is "Vengeful", but they don't know it until they die.
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man, is this going to be the third basic mafia game to start before mine, despite mine being in the queue before?
I'm happy to wait my turn.
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I'm unsurprised to see all mafia wins. What benefit does the town have? They don't have any PRs, just a bunch of people who die in duplicate. Daychat with a maybscum is pretty unhelpful, from town perspective. Whereas daychat between scum is super helpful.
I mean, I'd play it, but that's a tough town setup.
I agree. A random Townie should get a 1-shot PR of some kind.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll do something like that.
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man, is this going to be the third basic mafia game to start before mine, despite mine being in the queue before?
Oh if only someone had suggested some sort of control over when games start for precisely this sort of thing happening......
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When will this start? If this starts after the 7th of December, I'm in.
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When will this start? If this starts after the 7th of December, I'm in.
The start date will depend on other games and how long it takes to get enough players. Probably won't start before the 7th, so I'll take that as an /in.
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So here's the Town-buff I came up with: The Masonry and the Monastery may each investigate one player each night, the Masonry to discover if they are Mafia, and the Monastery to discover if they are a Werewolf. This seems to fit well flavour-wise, and unless there are any major objections (which I'm totally open to), this is the change I will make.
Also, I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make, but I'll probably make it clear from the flavour which one of the night victims was killed by the Mafia and which one by the Werewolves.
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I'm only /in if this starts after M17, M18, M19, and also M20. (According to ashersky's list, this game is #21 and not XXII).
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I'm only /in if this starts after M17, M18, M19, and also M20. (According to ashersky's list, this game is #21 and not XXII).
Yep, I'm happy to wait. And yeah, I noticed that. I swear there used to be a different XXI. I'll change it.
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Well it looks like this game will be next after joth's DS9. I think I'll have each Mason/Monk be a 1-shot Mafia Cop/1-shot Werewolf Cop respectively, submitting by PM. Thoughts?
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Well it looks like this game will be next after joth's DS9. I think I'll have each Mason/Monk be a 1-shot Mafia Cop/1-shot Werewolf Cop respectively, submitting by PM. Thoughts?
I think the issue with that is the default move becomes investigating your fellow mason/monk on N1 to be sure you can trust them. And so if mafia or werewolf is in the masonry/monastery, they use their N1 NK on the other mason/monk to protect themselves.
So I would not give them that kind of power, no.
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Fair enough, hadn't thought of that. Maybe just give them combined 1-shot Cop? There were concerns that the setup favoured scum.
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Fair enough, hadn't thought of that. Maybe just give them combined 1-shot Cop? There were concerns that the setup favoured scum.
Make a VT a doc?
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Well it looks like this game will be next after joth's DS9. I think I'll have each Mason/Monk be a 1-shot Mafia Cop/1-shot Werewolf Cop respectively, submitting by PM. Thoughts?
I think the issue with that is the default move becomes investigating your fellow mason/monk on N1 to be sure you can trust them. And so if mafia or werewolf is in the masonry/monastery, they use their N1 NK on the other mason/monk to protect themselves.
So I would not give them that kind of power, no.
Actually no that's not a problem. The Masons are confirmed non-Mafia to each other and their investigations will yield Mafia/non-Mafia so investigating your fellow Mason is pointless because you already know they're non-Mafia (same for Monks/Werewolves). The only issue is whether allowing them two investigations between them is too strong.
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Well it looks like this game will be next after joth's DS9. I think I'll have each Mason/Monk be a 1-shot Mafia Cop/1-shot Werewolf Cop respectively, submitting by PM. Thoughts?
I think the issue with that is the default move becomes investigating your fellow mason/monk on N1 to be sure you can trust them. And so if mafia or werewolf is in the masonry/monastery, they use their N1 NK on the other mason/monk to protect themselves.
So I would not give them that kind of power, no.
Actually no that's not a problem. The Masons are confirmed non-Mafia to each other and their investigations will yield Mafia/non-Mafia so investigating your fellow Mason is pointless because you already know they're non-Mafia (same for Monks/Werewolves). The only issue is whether allowing them two investigations between them is too strong.
Oh, opposite investigations? Not OP, then. Mildly useful at most.
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Well it looks like this game will be next after joth's DS9. I think I'll have each Mason/Monk be a 1-shot Mafia Cop/1-shot Werewolf Cop respectively, submitting by PM. Thoughts?
I think the issue with that is the default move becomes investigating your fellow mason/monk on N1 to be sure you can trust them. And so if mafia or werewolf is in the masonry/monastery, they use their N1 NK on the other mason/monk to protect themselves.
So I would not give them that kind of power, no.
Actually no that's not a problem. The Masons are confirmed non-Mafia to each other and their investigations will yield Mafia/non-Mafia so investigating your fellow Mason is pointless because you already know they're non-Mafia (same for Monks/Werewolves). The only issue is whether allowing them two investigations between them is too strong.
Oh, opposite investigations? Not OP, then. Mildly useful at most.
Cool thanks, that's what I was going for, just a little something to help the Town out a little, and it's in line with the flavour too.
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Seems as though this is starting after games I've already signed up for so I might as well /in
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confirming my in
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Okay, officially re-opening this for sign-ups. This will launch some time after Deep Space 9 (during night 1 or night 2 maybe), if we manage to fill the spots.
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confirming my in
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still in!
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Got a little something prepared flavour-wise. It's not that much, but I hope you'll like it.
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confirming my in
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I seem to be dying a lot. /in
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better /in while I still can
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That change seems like it'll help a lot, so /in
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I actually want to re-in. I think I like this setup better than the masonception one. Intrigued...
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So I've never played mafia before. (well, I have IRL before but not seriously; only the basic-est version with one cop, one doctor, Mafia and towns)I've looked at some of this forum's finished games though and it looks pretty cool and I'd like to try it. Do you guys think this would be a good game to start with? If not what game should I join instead?
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So I've never played mafia before. (well, I have IRL before but not seriously; only the basic-est version with one cop, one doctor, Mafia and towns)I've looked at some of this forum's finished games though and it looks pretty cool and I'd like to try it. Do you guys think this would be a good game to start with? If not what game should I join instead?
this game will be good, but might not start for a bit. Try this one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6103.0) we only need one more to start! That could be you!
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This game should be pretty Newbie friendly, with a completely open setup. Multiple scumteams is a little bit funky I guess, but should be pretty easy to get a hold of. I'm not too sure how Newbie friendly joth's game will be, I'd check with him.
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This game should be pretty Newbie friendly, with a completely open setup. Multiple scumteams is a little bit funky I guess, but should be pretty easy to get a hold of. I'm not too sure how Newbie friendly joth's game will be, I'd check with him.
is there interest in starting a true newbie game up? Not a "newbie friendly" game--I think we are a decent enough bunch that all games are going to be "newbie friendly"--but a true 9-player newbie game.
I only ask this because we have had a handful of players who joined games that were "newbie friendly" but didn't stick around, perhaps because the game was a bit too complex, too many players, too long and hard to read?
I don't know. I am not likely to host any more games--because there is enough of a line in the que of others wanting to and I have had my fun with it--but would be willing if there was an interest and no one wanted to sub in the newbie game for their own game. We haven't had a true 9-player game since MX.
going to cross post this in the mafia que thread.
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A newbie game would be great! :D I'll wait to sign up to see if one of those is going to happen. I looked at the game you suggested and it seems to have lots of roles and a setup which isn't known to the players. I'd probably rather play this one.
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A newbie game would be great! :D I'll wait to sign up to see if one of those is going to happen. I looked at the game you suggested and it seems to have lots of roles and a setup which isn't known to the players. I'd probably rather play this one.
I'm still a newbie (I think!) and I'm in the DS9 game. You can do it! You should do it! We're great!
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DS9 has a lot of newbies in it already. It has multiple scum-teams and a few less-commonly-seen roles.
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Okay you guys convinced me. I'll go sign up.
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I think I need to /out based on overcommitment. I will gladly volunteer to backup-mod though.
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Thanks Cuzz, I'll put your name down.
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Okay, I'll be looking to start this when all of the following have happened:
1) Game is full.
2) Arcana and PokeAwesome finished.
3) DS9 and Noir have hit Night 1.
If one of 2 and 3 take longer than expected and the demand is high enough, I can be flexible, but this is a general guideline.
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Okay, I'll be looking to start this when all of the following have happened:
1) Game is full.
2) Arcana and PokeAwesome finished.
3) DS9 and Noir have hit Night 1.
If one of 2 and 3 take longer than expected and the demand is high enough, I can be flexible, but this is a general guideline.
Sounds good.
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Also, I think I'll give each Mason 2-shot Mafia-
DoctorCop and each Monk 2-shot Werewolf-DoctorCop. Objections?
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Okay, I'll be looking to start this when all of the following have happened:
1) Game is full.
2) Arcana and PokeAwesome finished.
3) DS9 and Noir have hit Night 1.
If one of 2 and 3 take longer than expected and the demand is high enough, I can be flexible, but this is a general guideline.
I for one suggest that your parameters as to when to start only apply to normal mafia games, as I think role madness game parameters should only apply to RMM games. But that is just my opinion.
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Also, I think I'll give each Mason 2-shot Mafia-Doctor and each Monk 2-shot Werewolf-Doctor. Objections?
I am not sure what you mean here... There will be 2 Masons and 2 Monks correct? So does this mean that between the 2 masons there will be one 2-shot Doctor and between the 2 monks there will be one 2-shot Doctor. Or does it mean that both masons will be a 2-shot doctor and both monks will be a 2-shot doctor? If the former, I think that would be ok... If the later I don't think so. Would a scum Mason/Monk be able to be one of the doctors? Or would that only be available to town aligned mason/monks?
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Whoops, Cop not Doctor!
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As in with Mafia/non-Mafia and WW/non-WW results.
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So basically, if they survive long enough the Masons/Monks end up with 4 non-Mafia/non-WW results as well as each other. Do you think that's too many? Just trying to make the game less weighted toward scum.
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So basically, if they survive long enough the Masons/Monks end up with 4 non-Mafia/non-WW results as well as each other. Do you think that's too many? Just trying to make the game less weighted toward scum.
I tend to not be a huge fan of cops myself, but that is just more of an opinion than anything else.
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Why aren't you a fan of cops?
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Why aren't you a fan of cops?
I think my biggest reason that I don't like cops is that when they find scum, scum doesn't really have a way to get out of it... I mean, there always is the alternative of "You aren't the cop, I'm actually the cop" scenario. But once you have seen one of those, you have basically seen them all.
I guess what I am saying is that cops take the skill out of the game. Yes there is skill in determining who to cop. But once you are found out as scum... you are done. And once a cop has found scum for you as town, well you just follow his lead. It isn't as fun as going off reads, wriggling out of lynches, etc...
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I completely agree cops are only usefull with very limited abilities making the player make very important decisions on who to investigate
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Okay, what about Cops who can only get non-Mafia results? Like, "Name 3 players. Your result will be one non-Mafia player you named."?
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I think 1-shot Cops are fine.
What you could do is this:
If the Masonry/Monk has 1 Scum, 1 Town, Town will get the 1-shot Cop
If the Masonry/Monk is 2 Town, give the 1-shot Cop to a random 1 of these 2.
2-shot Cop might make Town too powerful, but ensuring Town has the 1-shot Cop would be fine, right?
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I think 1-shot Cops are fine.
What you could do is this:
If the Masonry/Monk has 1 Scum, 1 Town, Town will get the 1-shot Cop
If the Masonry/Monk is 2 Town, give the 1-shot Cop to a random 1 of these 2.
2-shot Cop might make Town too powerful, but ensuring Town has the 1-shot Cop would be fine, right?
No, that would mean that if both Masons are Town, one is confirmed Town to the other, but the point is to be confirmed non-Mafia. You think that more than one investigation for the Masons and one for the Monks would be too much? Remember they don't get Town/non-Town results, they get Mafia/non-Mafia and WW/non-WW results.
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I think 1-shot Cops are fine.
What you could do is this:
If the Masonry/Monk has 1 Scum, 1 Town, Town will get the 1-shot Cop
If the Masonry/Monk is 2 Town, give the 1-shot Cop to a random 1 of these 2.
2-shot Cop might make Town too powerful, but ensuring Town has the 1-shot Cop would be fine, right?
No, that would mean that if both Masons are Town, one is confirmed Town to the other, but the point is to be confirmed non-Mafia. You think that more than one investigation for the Masons and one for the Monks would be too much? Remember they don't get Town/non-Town results, they get Mafia/non-Mafia and WW/non-WW results.
Here is what I mean:
The Monk would receive a 1-shot Mafia investigation. If the Monk is made up of 1 WW, 1 Townie, it would go to the Townie. If it is made up of 2 Townies, it would randomly go to one of the 2 of them. These players are confirmed non-Mafia to each other.
The Masonry would receive a 1-shot WW investigation. If the Masonry is made up of 1 Mafia, 1 Townie, it would go to the Townie. If it is made up of 2 Townies, it would randomly go to one of the 2 of them. These players are confirmed non-WW to each other.
This would prevent the player from investigating their partner, and the Town player that receives it doesn't automatically assume the other member of the Masonry/Monk is scum.
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But it's pointless to investigate your partner, because you already know they are non-X. I don't see any problem giving an investigation to a scum player, because they're still looking for the other scum team. Also, I'm not confirming anyone to be Town to another Town player.
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Oh, it's the other way around. The Masons are confirmed non-Mafia to each other, and any investigations they have will be Mafia/non-Mafia, and the Monks are confirmed non-WW to each other, and any investigations they have will be WW/non-WW.
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Okay, what about Cops who can only get non-Mafia results? Like, "Name 3 players. Your result will be one non-Mafia player you named."?
That would be interesting with a list of 3 players. Maybe even with just 2. Makes you wonder about those names you ARENT getting results about.
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Yeah, I said 3 because if it was 2 there's a slight possibility that you'll name the whole team.
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After further thought, I'm going back to having each Mason be a 1-shot Mafia Cop (and respectively for Monks/WW) and going to leave it at that. When I get time I'll fix up the first two posts with rules and stuff, and then starting trying to get this to fill up.
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I'm going to /out. I want to limit my mafia participation to just Blitz games for the time being. Sorry :(
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Bump. Let's get this game filled up!
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I know this is somewhat of a contentious issue, but I do intend to start a new thread. I'll post a link to it here so you are without excuse. I just think it's much nicer to be able to re-read/post count without needing to account for the pre-game.
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Okay, I'll be looking to start this when all of the following have happened:
1) Game is full.
2) Arcana and PokeAwesome finished.
3) DS9 and Noir have hit Night 1.
If one of 2 and 3 take longer than expected and the demand is high enough, I can be flexible, but this is a general guideline.
Well 3) is done, 2) is basically done, just need to get more sign-ups happening! 6 spots left.
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I really want to be a monk.
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Can I take that as an /in?
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Can I take that as an /in?
I'm already in, aren't I?
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You are now, and I'll ask random.org really nicely if you can be a Monk.
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/in
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4 more!
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Jimmmmm...on the one-shots, you can call it one-shot Seer and Detective, if you want to use normal role names.
I also think you shouldn't be "VT + Mason" but be Town Mason and WW Mason. That way it isn't "in addition" but just the possible role you can roll.
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Thanks on the first point. On the second one, I'm not sure what difference it makes given they're rolled independently?
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I think this game is a really cool idea. If I die or my games come to a close before this starts up, I might join. Can't commit now but I'm posting to show support.
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I would roll alignment first, then roles, then PM "you are a WW Mason" instead of "you are a WW and also a mason" is what I mean.
Also, you need to rethink the cops. I was thinking how I'd play this. Town can break the setup by having all four masons claim, then investigating each other (masons check monks and vice versa). Scum can only 1) counterclaim and eventually get lynched, or 2) NK either the cop or the town half of the masonry/monastery. Either way, they are caught.
And if all four are town, they just created 4 ICs. 4 ICs makes the game POE lynch-a-thon.
Even if the cops are scum, the other cops will catch them.
I think no matter what, if all the masons/monks are cops, this strat breaks the game enough to ruin the fun.
Either only one of each is a cop, or no cops.
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Wasn't it you who said:
Not OP, then. Mildly useful at most.
Still, I guess I'm sold. Sorry all for all the back-and-forth. I just wanted a fairly simple but interesting setup, but the normal MnM was considered too pro-scum. Hopefully just having one Cop each will make things balanced enough. I'll update when I can be bothered.
And no, the Cop will not be guaranteed Town.
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Um...that doesn't work because when the mason/monks can investigate the scum can NK.
If they claim Day1, scum will NK 2 of them over Night1 (they're either IC or cop towards that scumteam, no doc means no need to WIFOM the kill), so you get MAX 2 ICs day2 (at least one mason/monk will die which means you also lose his investigation result), as few as 0 confirmed town (since the scum could happen to kill the ones investigating the ones left alive).
So, you get 1 more day of killing scum before all your ICs are dead.
That's 2 town-directed lynches there out of the 9 non-mason/monk players. So that leaves 7 left alive. With as many as 4 scum.
I'm pretty sure that's not broken no matter how you slice it.
That's assuming they're all town. If any aren't town, and survive the initial barrage they can fake-claim (knowing their survival is essentially sacrificed anyways) in order to try to get one of the living mason/monks lynched.
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Man I'm so confused.
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I don't think ashersky's suggestion is actually game breaking because it's a terrible strategy for investigative PRs to claim before they have investigative results. They'll just get NKed before they can use it.
However, after a bit more thought, it does seem a little bad for the monk/mason to be cop though. They're kind of like IC-cops (because they have a partner that can claim). So if they get a scum result, that scum is lynched without any ability to get out of it. He can't counter-claim, or do anything of value to help his team, he's just dead.
How about: mason/monk become cops once their partner is dead?
Or maybe just do something else to give town an edge (since the set-up is unbalanced initially). How about:
masons can roleblock only mafia, and monks can roleblock only werewolves. Although I would definitely take out kill flavor in that case so that they can't be sure if they were successful, or the other roleblock was successful.
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I can't stay mad at mafia! /in
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Um...that doesn't work because when the mason/monks can investigate the scum can NK.
If they claim Day1, scum will NK 2 of them over Night1 (they're either IC or cop towards that scumteam, no doc means no need to WIFOM the kill), so you get MAX 2 ICs day2 (at least one mason/monk will die which means you also lose his investigation result), as few as 0 confirmed town (since the scum could happen to kill the ones investigating the ones left alive).
So, you get 1 more day of killing scum before all your ICs are dead.
That's 2 town-directed lynches there out of the 9 non-mason/monk players. So that leaves 7 left alive. With as many as 4 scum.
I'm pretty sure that's not broken no matter how you slice it.
That's assuming they're all town. If any aren't town, and survive the initial barrage they can fake-claim (knowing their survival is essentially sacrificed anyways) in order to try to get one of the living mason/monks lynched.
My argument is that if/when mafia NK the mason and monk, the other is either IC or toast. Town can assume either because investigation targets would also be announced. So if Cop A will investigate Monk C, but Cop A dies, Monk C is mafia or framed town. Either way, Monk C is lynched. So I think you end up with the first 2-3 days planned out with no real posting required. Plus, you can no-lynch D1 for this, since it is even parity.
Wasn't it you who said:
Not OP, then. Mildly useful at most.
Still, I guess I'm sold. Sorry all for all the back-and-forth. I just wanted a fairly simple but interesting setup, but the normal MnM was considered too pro-scum. Hopefully just having one Cop each will make things balanced enough. I'll update when I can be bothered.
And no, the Cop will not be guaranteed Town.
I didn't think as much on it then. Now that I am in, I was thinking how to win as town. I think my plan does it handily.
One cop, randomly from both sets, no alignment guarantee is better. A full claim of masons d1 does allow for creating 2 ICs though.
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My argument is that if/when mafia NK the mason and monk, the other is either IC or toast. Town can assume either because investigation targets would also be announced. So if Cop A will investigate Monk C, but Cop A dies, Monk C is mafia or framed town. Either way, Monk C is lynched. So I think you end up with the first 2-3 days planned out with no real posting required. Plus, you can no-lynch D1 for this, since it is even parity.
This makes no sense, and is a terrible strategy if you actually want to win.
You're trying to game the system where one of the mason/monks are scum, but the problem is that you're giving scum all the advantages in the extremely likely case that all 4 mason/monks are town.
Here let's take a different tact. Suppose no investigative powers. Masons/monks claim day1, what happens? (hint: scum kills them all and we lynch other people) How is the situation you're concocting any different?
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My argument is that if/when mafia NK the mason and monk, the other is either IC or toast. Town can assume either because investigation targets would also be announced. So if Cop A will investigate Monk C, but Cop A dies, Monk C is mafia or framed town. Either way, Monk C is lynched. So I think you end up with the first 2-3 days planned out with no real posting required. Plus, you can no-lynch D1 for this, since it is even parity.
This makes no sense, and is a terrible strategy if you actually want to win.
You're trying to game the system where one of the mason/monks are scum, but the problem is that you're giving scum all the advantages in the extremely likely case that all 4 mason/monks are town.
Here let's take a different tact. Suppose no investigative powers. Masons/monks claim day1, what happens? (hint: scum kills them all and we lynch other people) How is the situation you're concocting any different?
You are making all the right arguments as scum trying to save themselves. I think reducing the pool of suspects by four is incredibly strong.
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My argument is that if/when mafia NK the mason and monk, the other is either IC or toast. Town can assume either because investigation targets would also be announced. So if Cop A will investigate Monk C, but Cop A dies, Monk C is mafia or framed town. Either way, Monk C is lynched. So I think you end up with the first 2-3 days planned out with no real posting required. Plus, you can no-lynch D1 for this, since it is even parity.
This makes no sense, and is a terrible strategy if you actually want to win.
You're trying to game the system where one of the mason/monks are scum, but the problem is that you're giving scum all the advantages in the extremely likely case that all 4 mason/monks are town.
Here let's take a different tact. Suppose no investigative powers. Masons/monks claim day1, what happens? (hint: scum kills them all and we lynch other people) How is the situation you're concocting any different?
You are making all the right arguments as scum trying to save themselves. I think reducing the pool of suspects by four is incredibly strong.
My main point is that the investigations don't matter to your "game-breaking plan". As a secondary point your arguments have definitely come across as "this takes all thought out of the game" and you can "PoE scum". You clearly can't do anything like that. You have 4 scum out of 9 players, you get 2! lynches before all your ICs are dead. That leaves at best 2 scum out of 7 players, which is more than newbie-mafia gives. It's like a blitz game where you purposely killed an IC and then lynched scum...except you have to eliminate the whole scum team to win. And this is Best Case Scenario for a day1 claim. (okay, this is only best-case scenario for a day1 claim when the mason/monks are all town).
So, supposing no investigative powers. (according to you) Monks/masons should claim day1. This reduces the pool of suspects by 4 (essentially), as long as you can count on the werewolves to kill the monks and the mafia to kill the masons then there is no reason to consider lynching them, right? So, the question is: why would the werewolves ever NOT kill the monks?
Including investigation can only make that day1 claim less optimal. In particular you could claim day2 and have 4! confirmed non-wolves/non-mafia. You might still get an IC if you happen to have coincided on investigations or happened to investigate a monk/mason. But even better, you are even more likely to actually investigate scum. Since at least 1 mason is guaranteed to be NOT mafia, investigating them has a lower chance of hitting scum than investigating randomly from the population. Now that day2 claim could very well be optimal, it gives a lot of information to town. Maybe even too much. Regardless it is definitely stronger than a day1 claim.
But, no, I'm obviously wrong about all of this, your simple 5-minute idea is clearly better, and I should bow to your superior game-theory.
Anyways, I still think a protective role would work better in this game than an investigative role. I think a 3rd-person protective role might over-strengthen the day1 claim. You have all manner of choices: masons/monks get one unified (i.e. both agree on target) doctor saving from the corresponding faction. Can't doctor self. masons/monks get one roleblock on the corresponding faction.
The other advantage here is that it CLEARLY makes a day1 claim a bad strategy for town. Which is a legitimate concern, since part of what's cool about the set-up is the potential werewolf-mason type role. And if the optimal town strategy is in fact a day1 claim (or perceived to be a day1 claim), that makes that role way worse than a werewolf non-mason role.
I think that still works simply enough to keep the set-up simple, without worrying about breaking it by over-saturating town with information. I mean, since monks/masons are already informative roles, making them extra-informative does seem like it would hurt the game some.
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Maybe my iPad typing shorthand isn't making it clear what I think. Nonetheless, Theorel is of course god's gift to mafia, as pointed out in his other games with his theory posts, so I bow to his superiority complex.
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Oh, and /out.
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I'm sorry I upset you. I felt like you weren't listening to the points I was making (which was probably only because of your short-hand typing), but regardless I didn't intend to be mean about it. Although I can see that I was being harsh, and I apologize for it.
Anyways, I'll stop posting here, I'm not even playing in this game, I was just enjoying the theory discussion, and would like to see this be a balanced game, because I think balanced games are better. I do agree with you that the double-investigation is probably a bad idea, I just disagreed with why.
I'd especially rather you didn't abandon the DS9 game over it. And even if you would rather not play any more games with me (which is fine, I can understand that, I had times when I felt the same way about O when he was still around), I hope you'll at least finish out that game.
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I can't stay mad at mafia! /in
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Jimmmmm just needs 3 more! Posting to bump thread.
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Despite receiving some other excellent suggestions, I have decided to leave it at one 1-shot Mason Detective and one 1-shot Monk Seer.
Come on, 3 more signups.
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Despite receiving some other excellent suggestions, I have decided to leave it at one 1-shot Mason Detective and one 1-shot Monk Seer.
Come on, 3 more signups.
One each or all four?
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One of the Masons will be a 1-shot Detective, and one of the Monks will be a 1-shot Seer. So a maximum of two investigations for the game.
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One of the Masons will be a 1-shot Detective, and one of the Monks will be a 1-shot Seer. So a maximum of two investigations for the game.
Gotcha.
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ok, in.
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
Me and my two friends watched an entire season of community in one day, just started season 2, it's so great
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
Troy and Abed in the morning!
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
+100
Happy October 19th!!!
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
Troy and Abed in the morning!
The video game episode was the best.
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/in for Galz and Dsell. Full.
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Or the newbies in MXXI.
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Come on people, two more!
We have nothing in day 1 now, and that needs to change.
But Day 1s are literally the worst. Day 1 is the Britta of mafia. (Who else is psyched for Community tonight?)
Am I signed up for this game, btw? If not, /in
Troy and Abed in the morning!
The video game episode was the best.
My personal favorite was the multiple realities episode... Amazing!!! Or the bottle episode... Double amazing!!!
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My favourite is still "Football, Feminism, and You" from season 1. The speech with Jeff/Troy was priceless
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Where is everyone? Do people find this a boring set-up?
I thought of an alternative to bankable deadlines that I think I might try: No deadline for each Day, but Town has, say, 6 weeks to win the game, with 48-hour nights included in the time. If the time runs out with scum still alive, then the scum team with the most living players (or both if they're tied) wins. Thoughts?
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/in for Galz and Dsell. Full.
Galz? Dsell?
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Where is everyone? Do people find this a boring set-up?
Its not the setup thats boring its that your not in it.
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Naww. ;D
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I just can't commit to this. I kinda need a break from serious mafia. This setup does look pretty cool, I'll reconsider if you need a sub or if you still don't have enough to start after a little while longer.
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/in if you don't mind a newbie
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/in if you don't mind a newbie
awesome! Glad that you appear to be hooked!
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Just got NK'd :(
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/in if you don't mind a newbie
Not at all. Newbies rock. You rock. Hooray for being nightkilled!
One more.
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change topic title!
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change topic title!
Yessir.
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I thought of an alternative to bankable deadlines that I think I might try: No deadline for each Day, but Town has, say, 6 weeks to win the game, with 48-hour nights included in the time. If the time runs out with scum still alive, then the scum team with the most living players (or both if they're tied) wins. Thoughts?
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In. You'd better make me scum.
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Moooorg! <3
Also, Gods be merciful. :D
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Yay I get to play with the fabled morgrim, hi morgrim I'm robz brother. Now I just need to play with cayvie, she left the last game we were in.
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that may not happen for a bit. cayvie's sorta MIA.
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Hooray!
I have work today, so I'll get onto getting this started tonight.
;D
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Yay I get to play with the fabled morgrim, hi morgrim I'm robz brother. Now I just need to play with cayvie, she left the last game we were in.
Hi, Robz's brother. :) Have fun!
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Someone get in here and quote that Frisk PM thing.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)
Oh wait...
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Someone get in here and quote that Frisk PM thing.
love it. I actually made the meme not Frisk but it was because frisk had said that.
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Someone get in here and quote that Frisk PM thing.
love it. I actually made the meme not Frisk but it was because frisk had said that.
It's Community-level meta at this point.
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Roles will be rolled and PMs sent after I get home in about 6-7 hours.
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Game thread is up: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6894.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6894.0)
Please /confirm in thread.