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[WilsonWriter]

Another card we've been trying out.

[SirPeebles]

Is this intended as a Reaction, or do you mean "Discard a Treasure from your hand.  If you do..." ?

[WilsonWriter]

Man, you're good. Thank you for your keen eyes.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Way better than Stables, at the same cost.

[WilsonWriter]

But not better than Council Room, and Stables doesn't require that you put a card on bottom.

[Drab Emordnilap]

But not better than Council Room, and Stables doesn't require that you put a card on bottom.

Right, but it gives one more card than Stables, so you can just put that card on the bottom. Or any card you don't want.

[WilsonWriter]

Making it about the same as Stables , right?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Making it about the same as Stables , right?

An action with just +1 Card and +1 Action is worth less than $2, but a card that read "+2 Cards, +1 Action, Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck" definitely wouldn't be worth less than $2. Embassy is a strong $5, but a card that said "+3 Cards, Discard a card" would be worse than Smithy, even though you end up with the same number of cards.

Card selection isn't as good as getting to keep all the cards, but it's not worthless, either. Just look at Warehouse; you end up with a smaller hand than you started with, but it's still very good at finding you specific cards. Your card is better than Stables at finding specific cards, and no worse at increasing hand size.

[eHalcyon]

But not better than Council Room, and Stables doesn't require that you put a card on bottom.

Debatable.  CR draws more net cards without an initial cost, but it is also terminal and it gives opponents a big benefit.  They are different enough that it means one or the other may be better depending on the board, which is what you generally want out of cards at the same price point.

Making it about the same as Stables , right?

Except in very rare edge cases, this Ale House is better than Stables. 

Both are non-terminal card drawers that require you to first discard a treasure.  Stables gives you 3 cards.  Ale House gives you a choice of 3/4 cards, plus deck control in the form of bottom decking.  If you have a good card that you don't need this turn, the bottom decking could let you save it for later.  Or alternatively, the bottom decking could be used to stack a bunch of bad cards on the bottom so that you can make them miss the reshuffle.  Even with the bottom-decking, Ale House and Stables both non-terminally increase your hand size by 1.

So, Ale House and Stables are very similar, but seeing the extra card and getting some deck control will make Ale House generally better.  Can you think of any situation where you would prefer to buy Stables?  The only ones I can think of are rare edge cases -- having a differently named card for the usual reasons -- Menagerie, Horn of Plenty, Fairgrounds; not wanting to empty the Ale House pile while behind in points; I think that's it.  And there are only a few edge cases where you'd prefer to play a Stables instead of an Ale House -- to increase Horn of Plenty (after having already played an Ale House) or when drawing the extra card would trigger a reshuffle when you otherwise wouldn't want it.

Ale House is just much better than Stables.



There are lots of little tweaks you could do to fix it though.  This version of Ale House might be OK at $6.  Or the penalty could be a little harsher -- bottom-deck two cards instead of one.  I think that would make it quite interesting.  This version of Ale House would not increase your hand size, but it would give you a chance to find 2 great cards out of 4.  The bottom-decking could open up some interesting strategies involving the reshuffle.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Note that you're not bottom-decking one of 4 cards, you're bottom-decking one of 7 cards.

[zahlman]

Making it about the same as Stables , right?

Stables is: you discard a treasure, and get +1 Action and +3 Cards.

This is: you discard a treasure, then you get +1 Action and +3 Cards, *then you also get 1 card worth of sifting* (i.e. you draw 4 cards instead of 3, and then put one back on the bottom of the deck).

That's like, strictly better, and significantly so.

[Asper]

If it was discard, i'd immediately side with all of you. Then it would be "real" sifting, and that never could mean you would draw all that bad cards together in one turn later on. This probably will sometimes turn out as bad.

Still i'm inclined to go with your opinion about how this is pretty much better than Stables. Especially for skilled players or very good decks, that "punishment" might even turn out a bonus. And if not, having one bad turn every now and then is still a small price. With Chancelloring it won't happen at all.

[Drab Emordnilap]

If it was "real" sifting, that never could mean you will draw all that bad cards in one turn later on. If it was discard, i'd immediately side with you. And still i'm inclined to say it's better than Stables. Especially for skilled players or very good decks, that "punishment" might turn out a bonus.

You may draw them all in one turn, but at least they'll miss the shuffle.

[eHalcyon]

Making it about the same as Stables , right?

Stables is: you discard a treasure, and get +1 Action and +3 Cards.

This is: you discard a treasure, then you get +1 Action and +3 Cards, *then you also get 1 card worth of sifting* (i.e. you draw 4 cards instead of 3, and then put one back on the bottom of the deck).

That's like, strictly better, and significantly so.

If it was discard, i'd immediately side with you. Then it would be "real" sifting, and that never could mean you would draw all that bad cards together in one turn later on. Still i'm inclined to go with your opinion about how this is better than Stables. Especially for skilled players or very good decks, that "punishment" might turn out a bonus.

It will never be worse than Stables.  At worst, it is like Stables with an additional "move the top card of the deck to the bottom" tacked on at the end.  Moving a card from the top to the bottom of your deck does nothing on average.  But Ale House makes it a benefit because you see an extra card and can put back any card from your hand, including one you had from before playing Ale House.