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[Polk5440]

I am giving you a +1 because I like the enthusiasm.

"Is the engine viable?" is a really important question. However, I don't really believe the "Is the engine viable?" section would work better than most other, simpler approaches. You lay out a simple approach: always go engine if there is a village (+2 actions) and a card that draws at least 2. Does the complicated method do a better job than this at determining whether the engine is viable? I am going to go with no.

What I do like is the stand you take on a heuristic for building the engine, essentially listing pieces in order of importance.

junking attacks > cards that trash > cards that gain > useful cantrips or non-terminal draw > villages (+2 actions)* > terminal draw > other useful terminals > Treasure

* IF you have more terminals than villages in your deck. 

You could do much worse than telling new players this. It's easy to remember, conveys some useful information, and gets people to be on the lookout for different pieces.

Although, what happened to the discard attack??

[soulnet]

I am going to repeat myself, because I believe many people keep repeating it in disguise: I think the usefulness of the heuristic is actually using it as a checklist. That makes you focus on the different pieces, spend some time looking at the board, consider different kind of things, etc. All good things to make new players do.

With regard to the learning style, I think TheExpressicist is a bit too set on this two styles, as if they represented a complete partition of the set of people, which I doubt. I am more inclined to believe most people learn in both ways, as well as many others (like reading theoretical things like this forum). That being said, if some people need to observe masters to learn, the best they can do is probably watch videos and read game reports and the discussions on them (there are plenty). That would get them the necessary observation time much faster than trying to play like a mediocre AI in order to face them. It is also better with the world.

If I ever become a Dominion master worth watching to learn, I do NOT want people developing mediocre AI to try to face me. For that, I would much rather play bots who won't mind if I take 10 minutes in a turn because I want to go to the toiletter. I would never do that to a person.

[-Stef-]

Q: Is an engine viable on board X?
A: Yes.


Although not perfect, this heuristic is simple, elegant and most of the time correct. And you can learn a lot from it.

[TheExpressicist]

@Soulnet: Yeah, there are definitely a lot more than two modes of learning. I just focused on those two for sake of example because I think they are two that are most positively/negatively impacted by following rigid heuristics.

@Polk - I thought about discard attacks in the "Simple version" but I realized that most viable discard attacks fall under one of the other, higher ranked categories. Ghost Ship, Minion, Torturer, Margrave, etc. The only two exceptions I could think of are Goons and Militia. Goons is a seperate beast because I have not adequately accounted for the impact of alt-VP. And I didnt' want to make a separate rule just for Militia.

@Stef - (This is a legitimate question, not a snarky riposte) In general, how do you approach an engine when there is not a viable source of +Action on the board?

[Awaclus]

@Stef - (This is a legitimate question, not a snarky riposte) In general, how do you approach an engine when there is not a viable source of +Action on the board?

Throne Room.

[Polk5440]

@Stef - (This is a legitimate question, not a snarky riposte) In general, how do you approach an engine when there is not a viable source of +Action on the board?

Throne Room.

I count that as + 2 Action "equivalent" (along with KC, Procession, and Golem)....

More seriously, if there are good cantrips, you can still often go engine. For an extreme example:

Vineyard, Forager, Urchin, Menagerie, Warehouse, Spy, Bridge, Highway, Butcher, Peddler

Even if Menagerie was replaced with Pearl Diver or something, so there is no +2 or more draw, either, it's still engine/Vineyard.

[SirPeebles]

I am going to repeat myself, because I believe many people keep repeating it in disguise: I think the usefulness of the heuristic is actually using it as a checklist. That makes you focus on the different pieces, spend some time looking at the board, consider different kind of things, etc. All good things to make new players do.

With regard to the learning style, I think TheExpressicist is a bit too set on this two styles, as if they represented a complete partition of the set of people, which I doubt. I am more inclined to believe most people learn in both ways, as well as many others (like reading theoretical things like this forum). That being said, if some people need to observe masters to learn, the best they can do is probably watch videos and read game reports and the discussions on them (there are plenty). That would get them the necessary observation time much faster than trying to play like a mediocre AI in order to face them. It is also better with the world.

If I ever become a Dominion master worth watching to learn, I do NOT want people developing mediocre AI to try to face me. For that, I would much rather play bots who won't mind if I take 10 minutes in a turn because I want to go to the toiletter. I would never do that to a person.

Watching a few videos by WW, AdamH, Qvist, jsh, etc. can probably help a new player a lot.  Especially paying attention to the pre-game analysis.  Later tactics are important, but I do feel like the pre-game/opening stuff is the easiest place for a beginner to improve.  As far a checklist for engines go, it is good to ask a few questions like

1) are there villages and cards for drawing?  If not, is there some other way to play lots of cards?
2) anyway to thin my deck?  if not, is there some other way to improve reliability?
3) what am I going to do with my engine?  Is there a key card I'm hoping to play each turn?
4) it would be nice if I could get more than one green card per turn later.  Is there a source of +buy so that I can double Province or pick up Duchies on the side?  Maybe a remodeler that I can use to turn cards into green?
5) any attacks to think about?
6) how viable does this plan seem?  what else might I try?

None of these steps lead to the conclusion that the engine is viable or not viable.  But at least you've thought about it, then after the game you can compare what happened to your original thoughts and begin to get a feel for relative strengths of strategies and tactics (e.g.: hmm, apparently Witch's +2 Cards wasn't enough draw after all, especially with all of those Curses).  The idea is to use the heuristics as a flexible framework.  Flexibility is key, since it allows room for growth and development over time.

[-Stef-]

@Stef - (This is a legitimate question, not a snarky riposte) In general, how do you approach an engine when there is not a viable source of +Action on the board?

Yes your question is legitimate. But I can't think of an easy answer.
No +actions is a strong hint engine is going to be hard, but with some fitting cantrips you can still pull it off.

Scrying pool is a very likely candidate, as is Upgrade. Both still need some help, but very very little.
Yesterday I played Scrying Pool + knights, this video is about Scrying Pool + Goons, and an example with Upgrade+Alchemist
A kingdom of Wishing Well, Remodel, Conspirator, Market is also a (very strong) engine.
Horn of Plenty can totally work without any +actions, as can Highway.

The problem is this discussion might be that we all accepted 'engine' as a deck type. I like WanderingWinders survey of the decktypes up to the point that I agree with 4 out of 5. But "engine" doesn't really fit in there as a single category. There are just too many completely different decks we're all calling 'engine'. If you really want to get an answer to the question 'should I go engine' maybe you should first look into the different kind of engines that exist. Then for each type of engine try to formulate some rules that predict if it's going to work.

But I think it's a lot of work and very hard to pull of. All my attempts to write an article about it failed, up to the point that I just deleted my own nonsense instead of posting it.

[terminalCopper]

Q: Is an engine viable on board X?
A: Yes.


Although not perfect, this heuristic is simple, elegant and most of the time correct. And you can learn a lot from it.

According to the thread title, I would like to expand Stefs idealistic version by a few lines:

A beginner should try to build an engine, if

1) neither rebuild nor cultist is on board

AND

2a) all engine ingredients are available
(+2actions, +2draw, +buy, trashing, gaining, payload)
OR

2b) most of them are available, and no junk attacks
OR

2c) neither Junk Attacks nor excellent BM cards are on board
(say ...: Wharf, Jack, Vault, Masq)

This is pretty easy to adapt and even helpful for many mediocre players. Concerning the results, I think, it will be stronger than the complicated XYZ-stuff ...
and for once in my life, it might even outperform Stefs attempt.

[Witherweaver]

Q: Is an engine viable on board X?
A: Yes.


Although not perfect, this heuristic is simple, elegant and most of the time correct. And you can learn a lot from it.

According to the thread title, I would like to expand Stefs idealistic version by a few lines:

A beginner should try to build an engine, if

1) neither rebuild nor cultist is on board

AND

2a) all engine ingredients are available
(+2actions, +2draw, +buy, trashing, gaining, payload)
OR

2b) most of them are available, and no junk attacks
OR

2c) neither Junk Attacks nor excellent BM cards are on board
(say ...: Wharf, Jack, Vault, Masq)

This is pretty easy to adapt and even helpful for many mediocre players. Concerning the results, I think, it will be stronger than the complicated XYZ-stuff ...
and for once in my life, it might even outperform Stefs attempt.

Is all else fails:

[markusin]

Something else to consider: sometimes, it's not that the engine is particularly viabl so much as big mony really isn't viable. There are cards like Noble Brigand, Knights, Rabble, and even Pirate ship that can really put the hurt on BM decks if the key terminal is played often. There will be times where you're kinda forced to play engine.

[WanderingWinder]

For an engine to be possible, basically all you need is some way of chaining together cards that draw. Usually this means either having a card which is capable of drawing more than one card at a time (and if all such cards are terminal, a card capable of giving more than one action or the effective equivalent), sometimes it means having some good cantrips (usually with some reasonable way to thin the deck; 'reasonable trashing' is more or less anything better than terminally trashing one card at a time (though occasionally even that is good enough) - trade route & stonemason don't usually cut it, steward or upgrade usually do).

Whether an engine is good on the board is more complicated than that of course, but in a pretty significant majority of these cases, it is, so it generally makes more sense to be looking at engine as the status quo, and not the other way around - i.e. I need a good reason to do something not an engine, and NOT I need a good reason to go engine.


Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[flies]

For an engine to be possible, basically all you need is some way of chaining together cards that draw. Usually this means either having a card which is capable of drawing more than one card at a time (and if all such cards are terminal, a card capable of giving more than one action or the effective equivalent), sometimes it means having some good cantrips (usually with some reasonable way to thin the deck; 'reasonable trashing' is more or less anything better than terminally trashing one card at a time (though occasionally even that is good enough) - trade route & stonemason don't usually cut it, steward or upgrade usually do).

Whether an engine is good on the board is more complicated than that of course, but in a pretty significant majority of these cases, it is, so it generally makes more sense to be looking at engine as the status quo, and not the other way around - i.e. I need a good reason to do something not an engine, and NOT I need a good reason to go engine.


Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that.

This is the kind of advice i think most beginners could actually use.   +1.

[DG]

I think you also need to look for the payoff you're going to get from an engine. If you're going to buy once province per turn when your engine works, no attacks, clogging up once you have a few green cards, no extra end game control, then there's not enough pay off.

[c4master]

The idea of evaluating a board before playing is, of course, awesome. Yet, in real life, this shouldn't take forever and a day, so some kind of heuristic will help to cut the time used on this.
Let's simply take a look at one example, a pre-constructed kingdom from dark ages combined with Hinterlands:

Poor House, Crossroads, Tunnel, Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Ironmonger, Catacombs, Highway, Altar, Farmland

I played as player1 in a 2-player-game and started 3/4. As it turned out my opponent also startet 3/4, but let's forget about that.

I have checked Crossroads as a way to draw cards and get +3 Actions once a turn. Storeroom combos nicely with tunnel and Highway seems to combo with nearly everything (altar, farmland, but also the +buy from spice merchant or storeroom).
I came up with storeroom/tunnel as a beginning. In turn 3, I could discard the tunnel along with 7 other cards and get 2 crossroads. After that, I bought a Highway, which I consider now a mistake. Anyways, by some more tunnels, storerooms, crossroads, catacombs and highways, together with an ironmonger and a spice merchant later on, I managed to win the game in a megaturn with 3 buys and >30 coins, but it was really tough until that last turn.

So I would like you to correct my play on this specific board. Maybe the engine was even a bad idea and it should have been some highway/altar combo. What would you have done?

[Polk5440]

I am going to first re-iterate this:

What I do like is the stand you take on a heuristic for building the engine, essentially listing pieces in order of importance.

junking attacks > cards that trash > cards that gain > useful cantrips or non-terminal draw > villages (+2 actions)* > terminal draw > other useful terminals > Treasure

* IF you have more terminals than villages in your deck. 

Regarding:

Poor House, Crossroads, Tunnel, Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Ironmonger, Catacombs, Highway, Altar, Farmland

It's a recommended kingdom, so there are lots of things to notice, as you point out.

If you are going to build a super-engine that gains multiple Provinces per turn, then you missed a vital component of that engine that was present on the board: early TRASHING. One way to go is to open with Spice Merchant. Altar usually comes too late and should be an addition to help you gain lots of pieces (esp. Highways, Catacombs). You could try to spike it turn 3 or 4, but Spice Merchant will be more consistent. You will still have plenty of targets by the time you do hit Altar.

Opening with Storeroom-Tunnel then switching to engine gets the priorities backwards. You want to trash down, get lots of pieces, then see if you need treasure as a payload for the engine (you would pick up some tunnels and a storeroom later).

You were also weak on the +actions. Crossroads isn't going to be enough actions for this type of approach. A couple of Crossroads only, probably only one until late, I would rather pound the Ironmongers and increase action density so they work as villages when you need them.

Alternatively, try going JUST Storeroom-Tunnel-(Catacombs, maybe? Depends on how things are going). You will rack up a bunch of Golds and be able to buy Provinces fairly quickly. Late you also have Farmland opportunities for even more points. It's simpler, easier to execute, and in multiplayer (esp. 4+ players) I would definitely go this route. In the 2-player game, a better constructed engine is probably the way to go.

The idea of evaluating a board before playing is, of course, awesome. Yet, in real life, this shouldn't take forever and a day, so some kind of heuristic will help to cut the time used on this.

I take between 15 seconds and 4 minutes to read and analyze a kingdom. Inspired by this thread, I have been typing up what I do before the opening buy in a way that would help other people (it's mostly a checklist). I am at 4 pages and counting, so.... probably not that helpful to other people. If you are still learning the expansions and the combinations that are possible, yes, kingdom evaluation will take longer. Complicated kingdoms always longer. If you are playing with friends of similar skill levels, then it doesn't matter so much; you spend a couple minutes thinking, probably don't figure everything out, play the game, have some revelations, have fun, and play again.

Kingdoms like the one you posted are definitely on the upper end of thinking time -- they are designed so all the cards are potentially useful or traps, and picking the overall best strategy (if there is one) is difficult. And navigating how to play them as the game progresses is usually difficult, too. That's what makes them fun.

Speaking of designed kingdoms, be sure to enter your best kingdoms for the 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge.

[TheExpressicist]

The idea of evaluating a board before playing is, of course, awesome. Yet, in real life, this shouldn't take forever and a day, so some kind of heuristic will help to cut the time used on this.
Let's simply take a look at one example, a pre-constructed kingdom from dark ages combined with Hinterlands:

Poor House, Crossroads, Tunnel, Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Ironmonger, Catacombs, Highway, Altar, Farmland

I played as player1 in a 2-player-game and started 3/4. As it turned out my opponent also startet 3/4, but let's forget about that.

I have checked Crossroads as a way to draw cards and get +3 Actions once a turn. Storeroom combos nicely with tunnel and Highway seems to combo with nearly everything (altar, farmland, but also the +buy from spice merchant or storeroom).
I came up with storeroom/tunnel as a beginning. In turn 3, I could discard the tunnel along with 7 other cards and get 2 crossroads. After that, I bought a Highway, which I consider now a mistake. Anyways, by some more tunnels, storerooms, crossroads, catacombs and highways, together with an ironmonger and a spice merchant later on, I managed to win the game in a megaturn with 3 buys and >30 coins, but it was really tough until that last turn.

So I would like you to correct my play on this specific board. Maybe the engine was even a bad idea and it should have been some highway/altar combo. What would you have done?

Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Ironmonger, Poor House, 1 or 2 Crossroads.  Trash all your treasure. Use Ironmonger for your Villages. Use Storeroom to discard your Estates and Spice Merchants. With no treasure your Poor Houses are worth $4 a pop.   

To use the "Simple Version" of the heuristics (I eliminated the not applicable stuff):
2. Buying or playing trashers. Spice Merchant
3. Buying or playing gainers. Storeroom
4. Buying non-terminal +Cards. (Ironmonger, Crossroads)
5. Buying +Actions, if you have more terminal actions than +Action cards. (Ironmonger, Crossroads)
8. Buying Treasure: Poor House

So, according to this you'd open Spice Merchant, Storeroom. Then you'd grab a 2nd Spice Merchant. Then you'd start grabbing Ironmongers. With your extra buys you'd pick up Poor Houses and a Crossroads or two.

[c4master]

Even though it's a little bit late: Thank you, the Expressicist.

------------

I'm hitchhiking this thread again to pose a question, which has troubled my mind for quite some time:
Is there a general ranking of the different engine types?
There are different engines, which usually depend on 2 cards that can be replaced by others, right?
1. hand size reducing villages + draw to X (Festival+Library, Hamlet+Watchtower, Inn + Lib/WT)
2. village smithy-like enginges (Any Village with +1card + any +3 cards like margrave or smithy)
3. pseudo-engines depending on sifting (Cartographer, Lab/Wishing well + sifters like Cellar or Warehouse)

So is there some kind of superiority of one type to another? Or maybe a specific combination, that is better than others? Or maybe is any of these better for certain payload, for example better for playing attacks? Which of these mos desperately needs acceleration by trashing?

I feel like Hamlet+Watchtower is a very strong engine base, but I would like to see what all the experts can say about this.

[flies]

i don't think it's possible to rank these things without knowing the rest of the board.  Draw-to-X engines rely on disapperaing villages (or plentiful +action and good terminals or something) which, as a class, come with benefits to offset the lack of draw, which mean they already include things that an engine needs besides draw.  But if those things are available from other cards, then the smithy engine may be engine - depending on the village/smithy variants, etc.

It depends on the board.

I mean, cartographer is a pretty situational card, so maybe that one is generally weak, but if there's only very weak trashing and/or junking attacks, then cartographer will beat the pants off of village/smithy.