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[O]

The problem is that I distrust Faust, so either he's bussing iguana or diverting attention from Space, but I can't figure out which.

You distrust me, therefore I must be scum?

If you're so sure that I am scum, you should vote for me and not for Space/iguana.

No, I distrust you because I think you're scum

And why is that?

Why would ashersky do a 1 for 1 trade?

He hatched the plan when he thought he would lose anyway due to the mcmc/TWM situation and just wanted to have some fun.

bussing is SO MUCH FUN though. Trust me I try to do it every scumgame.

[O]

also I was hoping looking at unclaimed roles/town bids would make me think that 3 unclaimed roles were probably scum (and suggesting town!faust) but unfortunately we as town botched our bidding with overlaps so much that I think nothing meaningful can be gleened.


we might have had a shot if we did my d1 order discussion, though

[faust]

The problem is that I distrust Faust, so either he's bussing iguana or diverting attention from Space, but I can't figure out which.

You distrust me, therefore I must be scum?

If you're so sure that I am scum, you should vote for me and not for Space/iguana.

No, I distrust you because I think you're scum

And why is that?

Why would ashersky do a 1 for 1 trade?

He hatched the plan when he thought he would lose anyway due to the mcmc/TWM situation and just wanted to have some fun.

bussing is SO MUCH FUN though. Trust me I try to do it every scumgame.

I pushed extremely hard for the Ashersky wagon on like D2.

Hmm...

[faust]

We should break down the whole "faust is scum" theory as it doesn't make sense on any level.

- it has been pretty clear from D1 that I would eventually claim vig. Scum doesn't even want this because claiming it requires them to shoot "reasonable" targets, but what they actually want is to take out the towniest/strongest players. We know from the massclaim that scum very likely hid some of their PRs. Why wouldn't they do they same with their strongest one?
- I shot the first chance I got. This is clear. This is again not something scum wants. Later it becomes much clearer which players need taking out. Scum wouldn't shoot the vig in N1/N2.
- with a team this size, I would always absolutely try to sacrifice someone early for towncred. I have previously gone on record stating that I like this sort of play, and I have won a game where I bussed a partner to death D1. I would never choose to only go after town.
- I would never agree to a play like the one ash did here as scum. ash likes to do weird claims just for the heck of it, but of course this would eventually break down. Had I been ash's partner, I would at the very least have pointed out the gaping holes and logical errors in his fakeclaim. For evidence on this, you can check the post-game discussion of that game where ash and gkrieg fakeclaimed Masons.
- ash specifically tried to frame Galz/me as Werewolves prior to e's flip. I think he truly believed that to some extent, and that is why he claimed. Of course this cannot be if I'm actually his partner.
- PPS was the single worst town death possible for scum. Literally any other townie dying would have been better for them. As scum, wouldn't I have tried my best to be able to shoot someone else? I had other scumreads that I could reasonably have shot.
- On N2, Galz blocked ash, leading to one less death than expected. If the scum kill has been blocked at that stage, I could simply have claimed that I did not shoot, explaining away the missing kill and preventing ashersky going down.

[O]

The problem is that I distrust Faust, so either he's bussing iguana or diverting attention from Space, but I can't figure out which.

You distrust me, therefore I must be scum?

If you're so sure that I am scum, you should vote for me and not for Space/iguana.

No, I distrust you because I think you're scum

And why is that?

Why would ashersky do a 1 for 1 trade?

He hatched the plan when he thought he would lose anyway due to the mcmc/TWM situation and just wanted to have some fun.

bussing is SO MUCH FUN though. Trust me I try to do it every scumgame.

I pushed extremely hard for the Ashersky wagon on like D2.

Hmm...

Exactly. As town, my extremely amazing scumhunting means I lynch scum. Then when I'm scum, my bussing also means I lynch scum. Thus preserving a metagame in which I'm unreadable.

I'm glad you've caught up.

[O]

We should break down the whole "faust is scum" theory as it doesn't make sense on any level.

- it has been pretty clear from D1 that I would eventually claim vig. Scum doesn't even want this because claiming it requires them to shoot "reasonable" targets, but what they actually want is to take out the towniest/strongest players. We know from the massclaim that scum very likely hid some of their
PRs. Why wouldn't they do they same with their strongest one?

Sure.
-

I shot the first chance I got. This is clear. This is again not something scum wants. Later it becomes much clearer which players need taking out. Scum wouldn't shoot the vig in N1/N2.

Yes. Yes. No, scum is fine with it. Yes, and kills become harder to execute. No.
-

with a team this size, I would always absolutely try to sacrifice someone early for towncred. I have previously gone on record stating that I like this sort of play, and I have won a game where I bussed a partner to death D1. I would never choose to only go after town.

What game have you played with a team of this size?

-

I would never agree to a play like the one ash did here as scum. ash likes to do weird claims just for the heck of it, but of course this would eventually break down. Had I been ash's partner, I would at the very least have pointed out the gaping holes and logical errors in his fakeclaim. For evidence on this, you can check the post-game discussion of that game where ash and gkrieg fakeclaimed Masons.

Why didn't you point out the gaping holes and logical errors in his fakeclaim as town? Why does it matter whether or not you agreed to it? It's already quite apparent that Ash gets a little bit prickly and does what he wants.

-

ash specifically tried to frame Galz/me as Werewolves prior to e's flip. I think he truly believed that to some extent, and that is why he claimed. Of course this cannot be if I'm actually his partner.

Yes. No. No. No. Why are you pretending like we should be putting credence into pissed-off-scum Ash's busses/nonbusses?

-

PPS was the single worst town death possible for scum. Literally any other townie dying would have been better for them. As scum, wouldn't I have tried my best to be able to shoot someone else? I had other scumreads that I could reasonably have shot.

Nope. PPS is a fine death for scum when he hasn't sheeped any townie. The threat is a dual threat and you can't keep pretending that it isn't. You're the only person claiming town should autolynch.

-

On N2, Galz blocked ash, leading to one less death than expected. If the scum kill has been blocked at that stage, I could simply have claimed that I did not shoot, explaining away the missing kill and preventing ashersky going down

.
[/quote]

Tracker, Watcher, motion detector? Galz could be lying? Ash was scummy looking anyways?

[faust]

It is clear from your response that you are just fitting your explanations to the reads you already have, not the other way around. I thinkfurther arguments with you are pointless.

[Awaclus]

That reminds me.

Vote: O

[O]

It is clear from your response that you are just fitting your explanations to the reads you already have, not the other way around. I thinkfurther arguments with you are pointless.

actually i think my responses there were pretty legitimate questions, not sure how pointing out tracker/watcher/motion detector capabilities isn't a valid argument.

[O]

all in all it just seems like you went "O is not buying my own descriptions of my play from previous Mafia games and is doing the absurd thing of scumreading someone who has consistently harmed the town with their earlier play this game".

Which makes me fully happy to Vote: Faust. Maybe space is scum, maybe you are. But i'd rather have hard-hitting role analysis over "here's my bible of text for theoretically scummyish sounding activities and if you don't agree with them you're incorrigible" any day.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: Space because gut. going to reread something in the next something hours

I find your guy disappointing! Try brain instead? :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

we might have had a shot if we did my d1 order discussion, though

You did a lot of talking in D1, and I've just tried to have a re-read, but I don't really see exactly what it was that you were proposing. You were quite vague, and kept interspersing it with insistences that you weren't proposing a mass-claim. To me, that feels more like probing for things people will let slip... your words were all things like "nobody mentions this but..." or "discussion might be protown" or "we should have had more of a conversation". That was all in the pretty early days of D1; after that you got sucked into scumreading Awaclus and don't seem to have been mentioning the discussion idea. Compare and contrast with my strategy for getting the claiming exercise started D3, where I asked targeted questions to people, with definite suggestions of how the exercise should go and what we should hope to get out of it.

Hey, I did also just rediscover your wifomy "softclaims" at #1539 and #1550. I like them even less now that I know Awaclus is an IC. I currently feel much more willing to vote O than any player other than iguana, so if it turns out that sufficiently many people decide against the me-vs-iguana decision for today, that's where my vote will go. Not moving my vote from iguana for the time being, though!

[O]

Why do you think you are the only person to take those posts seriously, Space? Everyone else accepted them fully as a joke. Faust is presumably the 2-shot Vig and never took it as a scummy softclaim, when he'd be paying the most attention to it.

You should also probably reread Awaclus day 1. I just find it odd that someone who pays attention to language so carefully wouldn't understand why I don't like Awaclus calling people retards.

[faust]

It's is pretty ludicrous to not lynch among Space/iguana. Even if we end up mislynching, we will still have 1 confirmed scum going into tonight. Then we can start looking for partners on D6, Galrzia has a better chance to block the kill. If we lynch elsewhere and end up mislynching, we get nothing.

[Jimmmmm]

It's is pretty ludicrous to not lynch among Space/iguana.

I'm going to start re-reading them both.

[SpaceAnemone]

Why do you think you are the only person to take those posts seriously, Space?

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me it's because I have a much stronger sense of logic than of humour, and I find hiding behind "oh, I was only joking" claims to be something that benefits scum and hurts town.

Everyone else accepted them fully as a joke. Faust is presumably the 2-shot Vig and never took it as a scummy softclaim, when he'd be paying the most attention to it.

That isn't the fake-claim I was referring to in either of the posts whose numbers I gave. I'm referring to you giving strong townreads in italics to both Cuzz and RR. It's super-unhelpful to town to have a player whose reads are all maybe-jokes.

You should also probably reread Awaclus day 1. I just find it odd that someone who pays attention to language so carefully wouldn't understand why I don't like Awaclus calling people retards.

What are you even asking for here? That I re-read one of our two ICs so I can go and get worked up for non-alignment-indicative behaviour? Or are you suggesting I should scumread him for it?

1) Awaclus is an IC.

2) Awaclus is a player I've played with a number of times before. While it can be annoying, I do have something of a feel for his playstyle, and I respect where he's trying to go with it, even though I don't agree that it's an optimal strategy with many opponents. Getting frustrated with Awaclus for being Awaclus is not a fruitful exercise.

3) Calling people names like that is distasteful, but doesn't make him scummy. Also, afaik he's a non-native speaker; I'd tend to give non-native speakers a little more leeway for not understanding the offensiveness of a term, since appropriate/inappropriate use is something of a cultural/social thing.

[O]

Why do you think you are the only person to take those posts seriously, Space?

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me it's because I have a much stronger sense of logic than of humour, and I find hiding behind "oh, I was only joking" claims to be something that benefits scum and hurts town.

Everyone else accepted them fully as a joke. Faust is presumably the 2-shot Vig and never took it as a scummy softclaim, when he'd be paying the most attention to it.

That isn't the fake-claim I was referring to in either of the posts whose numbers I gave. I'm referring to you giving strong townreads in italics to both Cuzz and RR. It's super-unhelpful to town to have a player whose reads are all maybe-jokes.

You should also probably reread Awaclus day 1. I just find it odd that someone who pays attention to language so carefully wouldn't understand why I don't like Awaclus calling people retards.

What are you even asking for here? That I re-read one of our two ICs so I can go and get worked up for non-alignment-indicative behaviour? Or are you suggesting I should scumread him for it?

1) Awaclus is an IC.

2) Awaclus is a player I've played with a number of times before. While it can be annoying, I do have something of a feel for his playstyle, and I respect where he's trying to go with it, even though I don't agree that it's an optimal strategy with many opponents. Getting frustrated with Awaclus for being Awaclus is not a fruitful exercise.

3) Calling people names like that is distasteful, but doesn't make him scummy. Also, afaik he's a non-native speaker; I'd tend to give non-native speakers a little more leeway for not understanding the offensiveness of a term, since appropriate/inappropriate use is something of a cultural/social thing.

What is the point of this post? Why are you writing thesis defense of Awaclus? I have no desire to have this discussion with you. All my point was is that my initial reaction to Awaclus is a completely normal, not particularly scummy reaction that's probably actually expected.

Maybe this would all be remotely relevant if I was trying to drum up suspicion on Awaclus right now. I'm not. I'm defending my position day 1/early day 2.

You have literally just gone back and said "rereading early I find O annoying". It's ok, I can handle random person vendettas. But it's still a terrible way to scumhunt day 5. "O made jokes I personally did not like and found Awaclus annoying day 1, this makes him the second most scummy person."

Vote: Space


N.B.: Logic is a facile and awful way to attempt to approach human behavior, and it's rather pretentious to assume it's because some logical deficit that I play the way i do. I have my pure math degree, I just choose not to attempt to pretend it gives me some advantage in social pysch games.

 

[faust]

O, is there a particular reason why you have not stated any kind of read at all on iguana? Do you think it's unnecessary to reread him?

[faust]

I can handle random person vendettas. But it's still a terrible way to scumhunt day 5.

Now look who's talking.

[O]

I can handle random person vendettas. But it's still a terrible way to scumhunt day 5.

Now look who's talking.

day 5 tho and i'm seemingly not voting awaclus

[SpaceAnemone]

Maybe this would all be remotely relevant if I was trying to drum up suspicion on Awaclus right now. I'm not. I'm defending my position day 1/early day 2.

The majority of my observation there was nothing to do with Awaclus, it was about other not-town-helpful things you did in D1 that I'd somewhat forgotten about because D1s are hard to get into. Things like making too many jokey fakeclaims that only serve to confuse actual reads offered to town. There was also the fact that you're claiming now that you were pushing a discussion agenda back then, where the actual work you did back in D1 seems a lot more like it was "for show" rather than actively attempting to get a conversation going.

You have literally just gone back and said "rereading early I find O annoying".

No, I went back and said I found you anti-town. Please don't imply I'm being personal about it as an attack on you, because that is absolutely not where I'm going with my observations.

N.B.: Logic is a facile and awful way to attempt to approach human behavior

This may be true, but I have to play to my strengths :-) I have a bunch of traits people might associate with a high-functioning female autist at the mild end of the spectrum, if that helps give you more of a picture of where I'm coming from.

I didn't mean to offend you personally, beyond the inevitable offense you might take from being scumread, correctly or otherwise.

[faust]

I can handle random person vendettas. But it's still a terrible way to scumhunt day 5.

Now look who's talking.

day 5 tho and i'm seemingly not voting awaclus

No; you're voting for me.

[faust]

Oh, I think you are no longer. Good for you then.

[Galzria]

Space, on d1 there were a number of people "lurkimg" (I use this term loosely - I understand it was a huge game and overwhelming for many players).

Why did you try multiple times to get Calam to engage more? You said then "because he struggles as much with d1 as I do" - which is fine... many people do. Especially in a game this size. But you only tried to get him to engage - nobody else. Why?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, on d1 there were a number of people "lurkimg" (I use this term loosely - I understand it was a huge game and overwhelming for many players).

Why did you try multiple times to get Calam to engage more? You said then "because he struggles as much with d1 as I do" - which is fine... many people do. Especially in a game this size. But you only tried to get him to engage - nobody else. Why?

Because I think he's a lot like me (except for being male and rather young, but other than that...), and I wish people would do that for me. This isn't the only game where I've specifically tried to bring him into D1 when he wasn't saying anything. LMK if you want me to go looking for other instances later... it's too big a job to do right now because I'm really bad at remembering what happened where/when.