Thanks for writing this.
Did you mean Hunting Party when you wrote Hunting Grounds?
Also, Pillage doesn't strike me as an anti-synergy. I mean, how is being Pillaged here any worse than usual?
Seconded, it's unlikely that you'd want Journeyman to skip over your prizes!
Do you think Journeyman is actually better than Wharf then?
Still dunno about that Scout mention, even watered down.
While you're talking about top-decking, Ghost Ship might deserve a mention? You can put Estates back and skip them with Journeyman, for example. Journeyman is sort of like Farming Village that way, I guess, but it's more flexible because you could do it with, say, Copper instead. I see that you talk about Ghost Ship in the next section though.
Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers. In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.
Yay! Again I'm proven wrong in one of these articles :P Ah well. I was thinking that though because I had just played a game where I named village multiple times because I had just drawn my Journeyman all alone. With an action remaining, yeah, name a VP or copper or somethingBut even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers. In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.
No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck. Really. You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck. There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers. In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.
No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck. Really. You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck. There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).
Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
Journeyman is the best non-Attack terminal draw card.
...
Hunting Grounds is too expensive, Embassy effectively draws fewer cards... okay, maybe Wharf is better, but that's only because its Duration effect is so ridiculous.
When opening with a controversial claim, it's usually good to provide some justification.
Your argument boils down to:
1. "Journeyman at $5 is better than HG at $6"
2. "Embassy only draws 2 cards"
3. "I didn't mean it... Wharf is better"
I question #1. HG has a bigger edge over Journeyman than Journeyman has over Envoy or even Smithy. And that's in spite of the fact that $4 to $5 is usually a much larger power difference than $5 to $6.
#2 is misleading. Embassy draws only two cards on net, but you can choose your discards from among the bad cards you had in your starting hand. The stronger argument against Embassy is the free Silver, without which Embassy vs Journeyman would be no comparison whatever.
#3 is accurate.
Of course, there are a few other contenders for "best non-attack terminal draw:" Courtyard, Masquerade, Envoy, Vault, Catacombs, ...
Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?
Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?
Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).
The substance of your article is how to play JM, not how strong it is. You can either add a lot more substantive arguments about its strength, or you can limit your claims to what your audience is ready to accept.
If you have to water down your claim to "JM is one of the best terminal draw cards that isn't an attack" then you might as well open with something else. And you do, because the general consensus is that JM is good but not amazing. Any really bold claim is going to immediately turn off top players while leading novice players astray.
Would you all be happier if I changed the intro to "Journeyman is ONE OF the best terminal draw cards"?
Sort of. That's not really true either (Witch, Cultist, etc).
I think Swindler is probably a counter, as it also gives you diverse junk.
Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent. It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.
Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent. It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.
Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.
Though, by hitting Copper, you make naming Copper a much worse play.Ehhh I'd think that'd be fairly kingdom dependent. It can't give you diverse junk reliably in the same way Looters can.
Of course it can, especially if you have more than one opponent.
What is Swindler most likely to hit? Copper. Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser. In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable. $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place. And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.
What is Swindler most likely to hit? Copper. Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser. In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable. $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place. And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.
What is Swindler most likely to hit? Copper. Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser. In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable. $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place. And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.
This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.
What is Swindler most likely to hit? Copper. Those turn into Curses, which offers no more variety than a Curser. In most kingdoms, there will be 1-3 cards of each cost, and most of them will be, if not essential, then not necessarily undesirable. $5s can be turned into Duchies, yes, and Potions, when in the game, are certainly a danger, but that's still not that high, and Swindler needs to hit them in the first place. And keep in mind that Journeyman dislikes "bad" variety much more than "neutral" or "good" variety.
This entire post is a bit of a non sequitur. I can guarantee you that if you play a Swindler-in-an-engine game or a slog against 2 other opponents, your deck will go to shit, whether or not you subscribe to Copper-trashing rhetoric.
What? This isn't like, some obscure ideological tenet I'm spouting. I'm describing what Swindler generally does to a deck. That is not a non sequitur. I was putting forth how Swindler is not as reliable a deck junker as a Looter. Yes, Swindler can turn your Journeymen into Duchies, but you're not going to have a high concentration of them in your deck. In Big Money, there will be far more Silvers and Golds, both of which are normally Swindled into themselves (Silver sometimes into a Swindler). In engines, engine parts will often also have to be Swindled into themselves. Swindler hits Border Village? What do you do, give them a Gold, or another Border Village (and another engine part along with it)? I've played enough with Swindler to know from experience that the amount of damage it can do is very very kingdom-dependent, which is pretty much the definition of not reliable, unlike Looters.
tl;dr: Looters are guaranteed to provide "bad" junk variety, Swindler, while still providing junk (not denying that), does not reliably provide junk variety.
Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.
You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.
If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.
You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.
Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent. Yes, Swindler is a good Attack. Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Depends on the kingdom.
If you're going to say 'Depends on the kingdom', while you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), you basically shouldn't be writing an article. I mean, there are OF COURSE edge cases. But does Swindler hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Yes. More than every other card? No, probably not. More than most other cards? Of course. In a way which is strategically significant? Well, maybe.Swindler being not "reliable" doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt Journeyman more than it hurts other cards. Introducing more cards that you can't skip and don't want to dead draw means that the value of Journeyman approaches that of a Smithy.
You can't play a Swindler game and pretend like it'll do nothing to your deck because it's an unreliable junker. That's the easiest way to lose against Swindler.
Journeyman being hurt more is still kingdom dependent. Yes, Swindler is a good Attack. Does it hurt Journeyman more than other cards? Depends on the kingdom.
In the countering section, you say that "like Hunting Party, Journeyman wants a deck with as little variation as possible". I still think this is incorrect. As has been mentioned already, it just doesn't want diverse junk. If you variety of cards are all good cards that you don't want to skip, that's perfectly fine.
I still don't see the point of name-dropping Pillage, since it doesn't hurt Journeyman any more than it does any other card, does it?
You still name Scout in synergies... not sure if that's good, especially since you've already removed all other mentions of Scout in the article.
Here's a possible synergy -- slow/selective trashers. I'm thinking cards like Hermit or Spice Merchant. They can help you remove some junk from your deck, but not all... but if all your Estates are gone, naming Copper (or Province in the late game) is extra effective.
A possible anti-synergy -- strong trashing like Chapel. This isn't to say that Journeyman is weaker with Chapel, but since you are getting rid of most of your junk anyway, Journeyman's benefit is not as useful. After you've removed all the junk, Journeyman is not much more than an expensive Smithy. However, it becomes more useful again when you start to green.
There's possibly a synergy with Poor House worth mentioning - always name Copper, and your Poor Houses stay valuable.
you need a village [...] you probably also want +Buy [...] play more villages/journeymen to draw all that together
Is it really better to keep your 7 coppers discarded to power up your Poor Houses than to just draw those 7 coppers for $7 per turn?
Yes I've still got a few questions about simple journeyman + treasure decks that could do with an answer (or a simulator):
- is journeyman stronger in a colony game? - probably yes due to period when you can name coppers
- do you want more than one journeyman in a basic province game? - probably not
- when do you start greening with a journeyman deck compared to a smithy? - similar time maybe, even though journeyman will stay stronger into the end game. Journeyman can yield very early 8 coin hands that presumably still need to be gold.
- are there many times when you would buy estates ahead of duchies to preserve the journeyman drawing? - probably not
-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
But even if you don't need the extra actions, naming Village is no better than naming Black Lotus.Why would you want to skip Village if you still have actions left? Any card you manage to skip with Journeyman is basically a cantrip and Village is strictly better than a cantrip.Because you don't need the extra actions. I'd rather take the gold or the second journeyman/other power card over another village. There's a chance you won't get the other power card, sure, but it's still better than being the village idiot
Name Village, reveal Estate, Copper, Village, Copper -> get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
Name Black Lotus, reveal Estate, Copper, Village -> play Village, draw Copper -> Get the following cards in hand: Estate, Copper, Copper
You might want to name Squire or another splitter that doesn't draw a card, though, but any card that gives +1 card, +1 action and additionally does something else (such as giving another extra action) is strictly better than getting that card skipped by Journeyman as long as you have that one action left.
Remember, this is working under the assumption that you have good trashing, and thus you no longer have Estates and Coppers. In this case, you'd rather find your other Journeymen, rather than yet another Village, so you can draw your entire deck this turn.
No, you'd rather get the Village, since that would be more beneficial to drawing your entire deck. Really. You'd be better off naming Province, Silver, Chapel, Mountebank, or what not if your goal is to draw your full deck. There is no reason to skip over cantrips unless you specifically want them to be in your discard (perhaps towards triggering a nice shuffle, or something).
True. I was thinking of Envoy there, please ignore my post. :-[You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.
To expand on this:You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.
To expand on this:You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.
You particularly actually want the second one. You almost always end up with a spot where it's better than silver, too.
You most often want the third one, but it's not common (though not unheard of) to get into the point where it's the best buy, over smithy (and, if possible, duchy/gold).
That's the key to reaching level 75.To expand on this:You don't want to want to buy 2 Smithies, but if the game drags, the second Smithy can be the correct play.-Do you ever want multiple terminal draw cards in a Big Money game?In the standard Smithy-BM game you want to buy 2 smithies, right?
This is wrong. You want a second Smithy for sure, sometimes even a third.
You particularly actually want the second one. You almost always end up with a spot where it's better than silver, too.
You most often want the third one, but it's not common (though not unheard of) to get into the point where it's the best buy, over smithy (and, if possible, duchy/gold).
It is hard to find a time when Smithy is a better buy than Smithy. ;)
The whole "if the game drags" is true about BM-style games anyway, so extra Smithies and/or Journeymen are always helpful.
With these kinds of problems, I find it's better to just get the second drawer ASAP, because when you're waiting for a certain threshold, you could indeed be well into Duchy territory and curse yourself for not being able or having wanted to pick one up earlier.QuoteThe whole "if the game drags" is true about BM-style games anyway, so extra Smithies and/or Journeymen are always helpful.
But when is a second journeyman more helpful than a duchy?
Off topic, but Masq-BM seems to lose 35-65 to BigSmithy on Dominiate. I thought Masq-BM was supposed to beat Smithy-BM. Unless there's been a new understanding of how to play it I don't see why it's so much better.
Geronimo's sim has it 51-44 in favor of masquerade. There is likely to be something going on with the decision to trash a copper when you might need it for gold or a duchy. The BigJourneyman script makes draw calculations based on the whole deck rather than the draw deck and this will lose some efficiency.
In that counterfeit game you went green too early. At least one gold was needed. A masquerade has the advantage of trashing estates before the copper so the effects of greening are much less.
Basically every time. You aren't going to get to the point where you are crashing from having too few coppers. Or if you were, it just means you want more silvers or golds before greening.Geronimo's sim has it 51-44 in favor of masquerade. There is likely to be something going on with the decision to trash a copper when you might need it for gold or a duchy. The BigJourneyman script makes draw calculations based on the whole deck rather than the draw deck and this will lose some efficiency.
In pure BM-Masq, how often do you want to trash Copper when it doesn't directly help you with buying a better card?