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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 352800 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4400 on: September 15, 2022, 01:05:21 pm »

This has to mean something like people expecting other people to be more hyped than they are, or something.

Bad news for the EMH imo. Especially bad if in a year it looks like the price goes up due to the merge after all.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4401 on: September 15, 2022, 02:35:02 pm »

Bad news for the EMH imo. Especially bad if in a year it looks like the price goes up due to the merge after all.

A lot of things are bad news for the EMH.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4402 on: September 15, 2022, 03:15:46 pm »

Bad news for the EMH imo. Especially bad if in a year it looks like the price goes up due to the merge after all.

A lot of things are bad news for the EMH.

Yeah, after writing that last post, my thoughts went in that direction as well. Maybe time to declare the debate over and admit that the market was never that efficient.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4403 on: September 15, 2022, 03:23:47 pm »

been watching better call Saul. That show is so good! The best new thing I've seen in forever.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4404 on: September 15, 2022, 03:24:21 pm »

If I'd known it's a Breaking Bad related thing, I'd have started watching years ago. But I think I like it more than Breaking Bad.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4405 on: September 15, 2022, 03:25:05 pm »

It's even got a bit of the Tarrantino magic of feeling really intense by just having long camera shots with realistic, not-particularly-special scenes happening

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4406 on: September 16, 2022, 01:57:43 pm »

Quote
Of several geometrically possible organizations that one will actually occur which possesses the best, simplest and most stable shape

Is it just me or is this one of the worst most grammatically confusing sentences ever? Given that it's not confusing on purpose.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4407 on: September 16, 2022, 03:09:22 pm »

Quote
Of several geometrically possible organizations that one will actually occur which possesses the best, simplest and most stable shape

Is it just me or is this one of the worst most grammatically confusing sentences ever? Given that it's not confusing on purpose.

I'd agree it's pretty bad.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4408 on: September 17, 2022, 05:29:10 pm »

been watching better call Saul. That show is so good! The best new thing I've seen in forever.

This show is so good. Seriously. Where has this been all my life?

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4409 on: September 18, 2022, 04:20:33 am »

So, I didn't want to post this in Steve's (or Scott's? Which name is appropriate for internet friends?) channel because it's yuck if someone posts something person and another person responds with their pet theory. Hope it's okay to do it here -- I think the post validates the claim that human experience follows a long-trail distribution, i.e., it goes much, much further in either direction than most people think. The more intuitive way to put it is that experiences lie on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale, but that's technically meaningless since you can put any data set onto any scale. But the point is that they're evenly spaced across a logarithmic scale.

In one of his talks, Andres proposed a scale from -10 to +10 with an estimated base of 4.5, which I tend to round down to 4. So a +2 feels four times as good as a +1, a +3 feels sixteen times as good as a +1, and so on. If this is accurate, again the range of human experience is vastly greater than most people imagine. It's bounded, but it's enormous.

The problem is that most people spend probably 99% of their life between -2 and +2. Like really excellent mood should roughly be a +2. Even sex, which the typical man arguably thinks about every 10 minutes, probably doesn't often get past a +3, and that's if it's good. So the logarithmic scale is impossible to imagine for most, and when some people do report extreme experiences, we tend to think they're exaggerating. Not to mention that they don't tend to be quantitative. But if you actually survey people for peak experiences and then do statistical analysis on that, apparently the answers are strongly indicative of a long-tail distribution / logarithmic scale, both for the negative and the positive side. (Not that I've looked at the data myself.)

Sadly, I'm guessing that a greater # of people have experiences with the advanced negative side of the scale than the positive side, because illness, both physical and mental, can lead you there, whereas there's not really a positive analog. (Kidney Stones can arguably reach -7, though certainly not always.)

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4410 on: September 18, 2022, 04:26:21 am »

Personally, I'm all-in on the idea that we should strive to phase out the extreme negative side entirely. There are people (extremely rare, but they exist) who seem almost incapable of feeling really bad states and are nonetheless perfectly capable of functioning in society, which is a proof of concept. Yes, to some degree pain has a purpose, but I don't think you ever need to go below -2.

There are also people who just have an incredibly high hedonic set point for genetic reasons, like Anders Sandberg, and that seems to have no discernible downside.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4411 on: September 18, 2022, 11:43:33 am »

Steven Lehar really is a hero

scott_pilgrim

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4412 on: September 18, 2022, 01:21:32 pm »

So, I didn't want to post this in Steve's (or Scott's? Which name is appropriate for internet friends?)

To clarify, both names are made up, so might as well call me Scott for practicality, but I don't really care one way or the other.

Also, I wouldn't have minded if you posted in that thread, it certainly seems very relevant. I definitely agree that while pain (physical and emotional) serves a practical purpose, there's no reason it needs to get as severe as it sometimes does, and if we could somehow cut off or dull down the negative end, that would be a huge win for humanity.

I suspect you're right that there are many more people who live in the negative extremes than the positive extremes, but one thing to consider is that you're probably less likely to hear about people living in the positive extremes, because they don't have a problem to solve. They're not actively looking for help, so we don't hear about those people as much.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4413 on: September 19, 2022, 04:06:11 am »


To clarify, both names are made up

Oh, derp. Yeah, you said that at the beginning, but I forgot it by the end.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4414 on: September 19, 2022, 05:03:35 am »

Why dukkha is best translated as "bummer"

I'm all for this. I love things that are hilarious as a side product of being totally legit. Here are the four noble truths in bummer version

I The Truth of Dukkha
        Bummers happen.
II The Truth of the Origin of Dukkha
        Bummers arise dependent on craving.
III The Truth of the Cessation of Dukkha
        With the cessation of craving comes the cessation of bummers.
IV The Truth of the Path that Leads to the Cessation of Dukkha
        The Noble Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of bummers.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4415 on: September 20, 2022, 08:17:14 am »

A couple pages ago I talked about Neural Annealing, which is yet another concept that seems to be validated by scott's post.

The claim is that the brain can self-organize in different ways. Some organizations are stable, some are not, and overtime the brain will always take a stable one. Perhaps a decent analogy is to imagine the space of possible brain states as a landscape of peaks and valleys, and the brain like water, which with time will always assemble in the valleys, which are the stable states. Importantly, it's not all at once place; it would be distributed across several valleys, some deeper than others. The brain has several self-organizing principles, and some are more impactful and stable than others.

The self-organizing principles impact your life in several important ways. One is your mood, another is your aesthetic. Someone who's spent much of their life arguing for a cause will have that reflected in how their brain is organized, which will yield to an emotional reaction to arguments that support or attack the cause.

The states generally get more stable with age, which is why teenagers can totally flip their passions from one month to the next, while most 40+ year old people will have a lot of their structure finalized for the rest of their lives. That's why people so rarely change their wold view once they're old.

Getting from one valley to another requires raising the energy parameter of the brain. One way to do this is via extreme experiences, like falling in love or having a child born. Another is via meditation. The higher the energy level, the deeper the valleys you can get out of. This would be why cults like to use emotional rituals as a means of indoctrination. Yes, it's also for signaling purposes (that's the explanation your average competent rationalist would give you), but signaling could be achieved in less complicated ways. The emotional component is important. It makes the brain malleable and then imprints an aesthetic into it.

Under this theory, depression is primarily a particularly sticky and nasty self-organizing principle. It requires a high-energy state to get out of. It's the same mechanism that can improve my mood after meditating on the previous evening, only on a much larger scale. Unfortunately, most people can't raise their energy level of demand, and depression probably makes it harder to have peak experiences as well,  thus solidifying itself.

That is, except for the fact that we have chemicals that reliably raise the energy level to something like... maybe the peak state that an expert meditator would achieve in a 1-month long retreat. Compared to that, what I can do is peanuts.

... under that model, "I had depression for years, nothing helped, then I took a psychedelic and it went away" is not a particularly implausible story.

A caveat is that it's probably not guaranteed to work. Raising the energy level, even by an extreme amount, just means the brain can self-organize differently. It doesn't mean it will self-organize well. That would be why the context matters. If you just take DMT out of nowhere, the expected effects may well be negative. I'd be especially concerned about epistemic effects. There's definitely evidence that people take them and then go on believing wacky things from there on. But still, even if they're not guaranteed to cure depression, at least they can plausibly do it.

I do think all of this is a rather bold model, but scott says more or less the same things in his post:

Quote
The point of psilocybin is to make your brain open to new thoughts, feelings, and ideas. If you take it without guidance from a professional, there is absolutely no reason to think that those new thoughts, feelings, and ideas will be healthy. That is to say, it seems just as plausible to me that an isolated psilocybin trip will make you worse as it is that it will make you better. Taking psilocybin without the accompanying therapy is like lifting weights without having been taught how to lift properly: it could conceivably just happen that you do it correctly, but there’s a good chance you won’t, and most likely you’ll just end up hurting yours

Quote
For a while I had this misconception that there would be therapy while you are on psilocybin, but that isn’t quite right. For the most part, the psilocybin experience is completely internal. You use the therapy leading up to it to understand what to do during the psilocybin session, and then use the therapy afterwards to take advantage of your increased neuroplasticity to mold your brain into what it needs to be.

Quote
My brain is now in a very impressionable state. The hard work is ahead of me.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4416 on: September 20, 2022, 08:24:21 am »

Another story is how the trip itself feels. High-energy doesn't mean high-valence, it just means intense. Could be bad or mixed. This is also something you can influence if you understand the mechanics... I think Andres recommended "one hour of loving-kindness meditation for a month" before taking 5MeO-DMT or something like that. Also, some substances reliably produce bad effects with other substances and so on.

But idk how important the trip itself really is for what comes next. Probably plays some role, but don't think it needs to be euphoric. Though it may help.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4417 on: September 20, 2022, 08:24:40 am »

*one hour every day

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4418 on: September 20, 2022, 08:25:57 am »

Also, I'm not saying that this is 100% of the story. There could also be other mechanisms, and it's not like common depression treatment never works. But I think it's a big part, probably more than half.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4419 on: September 20, 2022, 09:42:55 am »



Was into this album years ago, but didn't realize quite how buddhist it actually is. Literally opens with a meditation gong.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4420 on: September 20, 2022, 12:36:06 pm »

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4421 on: September 20, 2022, 03:09:17 pm »

If only it were mixed differently

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4422 on: September 20, 2022, 03:18:39 pm »

I wonder if listening to music right after meditation has done something permanent because I didn't used to care about mixing and right now I'm going through a bunch of music and comparing it and it makes such a big difference

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4423 on: September 20, 2022, 03:25:46 pm »

Another random thing I'm wondering about with regard to music is how much context matters. In the sense that, like, if you jump into a song at a random position and listen for 0.1s, it's gonna sound like meaningless noise. Even if you listen for 4 seconds, you usually don't get it. Maybe you need about 8 on average to get most of what's going on. But does it depend on the music? Is "amount of context you need" a proxy for "difficulty of understanding it"? Is music that takes more context theoretically more rewarding because it operates on a larger state space?

Also there are of course several effects, and some operate on a much larger scale than seconds. Like it can be an hour or something if an album plays with an earlier theme, that's some kind of dependence of context. But the most basic one is the one I'm curious about.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #4424 on: September 20, 2022, 04:49:41 pm »

Another random thing I'm wondering about with regard to music is how much context matters. In the sense that, like, if you jump into a song at a random position and listen for 0.1s, it's gonna sound like meaningless noise. Even if you listen for 4 seconds, you usually don't get it. Maybe you need about 8 on average to get most of what's going on. But does it depend on the music? Is "amount of context you need" a proxy for "difficulty of understanding it"? Is music that takes more context theoretically more rewarding because it operates on a larger state space?

Also there are of course several effects, and some operate on a much larger scale than seconds. Like it can be an hour or something if an album plays with an earlier theme, that's some kind of dependence of context. But the most basic one is the one I'm curious about.

I tried this (starting the song from a random position) with a bunch of songs I knew well, and a bunch I had no recollection of ever hearing but from artists whose styles I was generally familiar with. I'm not entirely sure what the standard for "get most of what's going on" you have in mind is in the context of music you haven't heard before, but I was using something like "could probably start improvising on top of it and it would sound pretty sensible, aside from the song doing something that would be unexpected even to someone who is in on the context".

In the songs I knew well category, it always took me substantially less than half a second to have my mind fully wrapped around what was going on every time, including with complex music like Meshuggah.

In the songs I hadn't heard before category, there was one Converge song that took about 8 seconds (just because I suck, but it was a complex song) and one Meshuggah song that took about 12-13 (because the random point happened to be in the middle of a polymeter that took that long to realign so it was close to impossible to figure it out any faster), but all the other ones, including three other songs from both Meshuggah and Converge respectively, took less than 3 seconds, with I guess the typical result being about 1-2 seconds, and a couple of Fleshgod Apocalypse songs happened to start pretty much exactly at what was obviously the start of a riff and took less than half a second.

I don't know how I would go about trying this with artists that I don't know at all, because I would have to be at least aware of their existence to be able to look them up.

So yeah basically, the fact that the Converge outlier song took me that long to figure out shows that at least in some cases, music will take longer to make sense just because it's complex. On the other hand, the outlying Meshuggah case shows that there's more to it than just complexity, since the same part of the same song would have taken a much shorter time to make sense of if I had just picked a random point that happened to be closer to the next time the polymeter realigned. I guess you could say that in Meshuggah's case, it's not necessarily so much that you need a lot of context, but that you need a specific context which appears scarcely.

Also, generally in order to understand any music properly, you need the context of the genre.
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