Dominion > Rules Questions
Lantern, Elder, Harbor Village, Moat
Jeebus:
--- Quote from: Donald X. on December 29, 2022, 01:23:48 pm ---Elder should work the same as Harbor Village. If a Way said "choose one," Elder would give you an extra choice.
--- End quote ---
So then you are changing the ruling about Elder with Chameleon and the ruling about Elder with Reckless?
--- Quote from: Donald X. ---I am not clear as to what the question is here. Moat happens before you decide to use a Way or not.
--- End quote ---
The issue is "unaffected by it". Moat seem to be like Elder ("when it gives you..."), so if using Elder on a Chameleon'ed card does nothing (which was your earlier ruling), then using Moat on a Chameleon'ed card also should do nothing.
--- Quote from: Donald X. ---The rules for Ways say: "Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do."
So when you play a card and use Way of the Sheep to get +$2, you "played the card" to get +$2. "...Play it to do what the Way says..."
Harbor Village asks if playing the Action gave you +$, and if you used Way of the Sheep, it did. That is the logic there.
--- End quote ---
I just don't understand how "playing the card does something" means anything beyond "the played card instructs you to do that thing". Cards don't actually do anything, right? The player is the one actually doing it. "Chapel trashes cards" is short-hand meaning that you trash cards because Chapel instructs you to.
Playing Smithy draws you 3 cards = On play, Smithy instructs you to draw 3 cards
Playing Monument gives you 1 VP token = On play, Monument instructs you to take 1 VP token
Playing Market gives you +$1 = On play, Market instructs you to get +$1
What about?: Playing Workshop with Way of the Sheep gives you +$2
This cannot mean: On play, Workshop instructs you to get +$2
What instructs you to get +$ is Way of the Sheep.
Yes, you can say that you "played Workshop" to get +$, but that is also true if you have your +$1 token on the Workshop pile. Both the Way and the token instruct you to get +$ and happen as a result of playing Workshop.
This should mean that Elder, Harbor Village and Moat all refer to what the played card instructs you to do. If something gets in there and tells you to do something else instead, it's like Ironworks/Trader, right? It's not what Elder, Harbor Village and Moat refer to.
***
I can see changing the ruling for Way of the Chameleon and Reckless so that "follow the instructions" actually means that you resolve the played card's instructions. (This is what everybody assumes anyway!) Then Moat, Elder and Harbor Village would work as expected with Chameleon and Reckless; although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way. It would also mean that Chameleon can't prevent Enchantress's attack. Harbor Village would still not work with other Ways (like Sheep) though.
You could go further and change how Ways (+Enchantress, Highwayman) work, so that they count as resolving the played card's instructions for any ability that cares about that, but still don't actually modify the instructions (for replaying with Royal Village or gaining a copy). Then Harbor Village would work with Sheep. It wouldn't change much else (compared to the Chameleon/Reckless change above), and the rule for keeping Durations in play would make more sense.
GendoIkari:
--- Quote from: Jeebus on December 30, 2022, 06:56:58 am ---although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way.
--- End quote ---
I was with you until just here. Did you mean to say that reckless will repeat the card even when it was played with a Way? Or that reckless will actually repeat the Way (so with Sheep you get another +$2)? I’m not quite seeing how either options works… Reckless still only does something if you followed the instructions the first time. So it would work with Chameleon but not other Ways.
Unless of course you’re including the proposed “go further” option that is in the last paragraph.
Jeebus:
--- Quote from: GendoIkari on December 30, 2022, 12:24:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jeebus on December 30, 2022, 06:56:58 am ---although it would mean that Reckless repeats the Way.
--- End quote ---
I was with you until just here. Did you mean to say that reckless will repeat the card even when it was played with a Way? Or that reckless will actually repeat the Way (so with Sheep you get another +$2)? I’m not quite seeing how either options works… Reckless still only does something if you followed the instructions the first time. So it would work with Chameleon but not other Ways.
Unless of course you’re including the proposed “go further” option that is in the last paragraph.
--- End quote ---
You're absolutely right. I was confusing the two options. With the first option, Reckless will still work according to the rulebook:
--- Quote from: rulebook ---If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time
--- End quote ---
With the "go further" option, Reckless will follow the Way instructions an extra time.
GendoIkari:
--- Quote from: Wizard_Amul on December 29, 2022, 05:44:23 pm ---I'm not too sure about Moat vs the other cards Jeebus asked about, but like Donald X said, I thought Moat was pretty clear. Maybe I'm forgetting about some other ruling, but Moat doesn't care what the card says or which instructions you're following, just that you play a card with the type "Attack" on the bottom--since Moat says "first," it doesn't matter what happens with the Attack card once you put the Attack card in your play area, because you reveal the Moat before reading any instructions (wherever the instructions are coming from). So, for the Reckless attack, I think it should be what dz said--you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations; you only put the attack card in play once, and then how many times you follow which instructions doesn't matter. This also agrees with the Cultist scenario by GendoIkari--even though Cultist 2 is put into play by Cultist 1, it the the playing of the Cultist 2 attack card that allows Moat to react to it, like how Moat can react to the playing of any other attack card.
--- End quote ---
No, it’s not an issue of revealing Moat, there’s no question that you can reveal a Moat each time an attack is played. The question is what is the extent of stuff that the Moat protects you from? Does it only prevent you from effects that result from following the card's instructions? Or does it protect you from other stuff that results from your opponent having played the card? If the first one, then you shouldn’t be protected from a Chameleon Militia. If the second one, then you should be protects from the second Cultist (even if you don’t reveal Moat when second Cultist is played).
Imagine a Way of the Militia that just says “each opponent discards down to 3 cards”. If you play a Smithy and choose to use Way of the Militia, then obviously your opponents can’t do anything about it; you never played an attack for them to reveal Moat to. But what if you play Witch, they reveal Moat, and you choose to use Way of the Militia? Does the Moat protect them? If so, why? They're protected from Witch, but Witch isn’t the thing attacking them. Chameleon and Reckless, under the latest/current rulings, should work the same as Way of the Militia.
Donald X.:
--- Quote from: dz on December 29, 2022, 03:07:50 pm ---I think the Moat question Jeebus is asking is:
-what happens if you Moat a Reckless attack? I'm still voting for: you can only reveal Moat once, at the start of the attack, and that single reveal blocks both iterations.
-how can Moat block a Chameleon'd Witch if you aren't following the Witch's instructions?
--- End quote ---
- Correct; again Ways specifically change what a card does when played; you're playing the card to do the Way. This is just me continuing to refer to that rulebook text I quoted.
- Again the rulebook text says that Way change what a card does - A Way of the Sheep'd Witch results in Witch making $2, Witch is making the $2, that's what the Way rules say. So Moat means you're unaffected by that.
--- Quote from: dz on December 29, 2022, 03:07:50 pm ---Actually while we're asking questions about Harbor Village: if you play Harbor Village, then Steward for +cards, then you Royal Carriage the Steward for +coins, does Harbor Village give +$1? I think not, as the Royal Carriage is a separate play. Meanwhile if you did the same thing with Reckless Steward, then I think Harbor Village should work.
--- End quote ---
Harbor Village is referring to that play of the card; further plays don't interest it.
Reckless's extra follow-instructions is part of the play of the card.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version