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[Witherweaver]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

We should have simply designed a language where all lists are comma-delimited and their and/or aspect is determined at the start of the list, like:

\/(a_i, i=1..n) [i.e., OR a_1, a_2, ..., a_n]

/\(a_i, i=1..n) [i.e., AND a_1, a_2, ..., a_n]

no need for confusion or ambiguities.

No trying to turn English into Lojban.

Ha, neat; I've never heard of this.

[Axxle]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

[eHalcyon]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity. 

[KingZog3]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

Such as? I do agree with you, but i can't think of an example.

[Thisisnotasmile]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

You put the word "and" between the last and second to last objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the first and second.

[Awaclus]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

Such as? I do agree with you, but i can't think of an example.

I went to the restaurant with Santa Claus, my son, and Miles Davis.

Did I go to the restaurant with three people or with Miles Davis and my son who is Santa Claus?

[Witherweaver]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

Such as? I do agree with you, but i can't think of an example.

The classic example is

"To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God."

It's ambiguous whether Ayn Rand is the mother or one of three in the dedication.  The wikipedia page goes into it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma.

[Witherweaver]

In general, the "right" thing to do is to reword the statements so there isn't this kind of ambiguity, with or without serial commas.

[Axxle]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

Such as? I do agree with you, but i can't think of an example.

The classic example is

"To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God."

It's ambiguous whether Ayn Rand is the mother or one of three in the dedication.  The wikipedia page goes into it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma.

Honestly serial vs nonserial commas this seems to be more of a problem with using comma to clarify an object ("my mother, Ayn Rand, and God") instead of using something else like "my mother — Ayn Rand — and God" or "my mother (Ayn Rand) and God"*. That's where the confusion lies.

*Not sure if any of my alternatives are actually grammatically correct.

[Awaclus]

I love ambiguity, though.

[jonts26]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

I don't know of anyone who argues that the oxford comma is always right. But the times where it is more ambiguous than not using it in real language are really quite rare.

[jonts26]

Oxford comma: yes or no?

I'm not a man with very many strong convictions. I understand that people come from many different backgrounds and believe many different things and I'm willing to let a lot of things slide when I disagree with someone because we are all part of this strange, frustrating, wonderful human race living in this mixed up world. But if you tell me you are against the oxford comma, I will find out where you live, come to your houSE ANd burn it to the ground with you and everything and everyone you care about still inside.

I actually did that on purpose to see if anyone caught it.

[eHalcyon]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

That's fair.  I don't really mind when people use the Oxford comma.  I'm actually a bit inconsistent with it when the sentence is clear either way.  I just don't like it when people say that it's always right, because it isn't.  Bringing up examples of ambiguity without it (like that popular strippers picture you posted) is a pet peeve of mine because there are also examples where adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity.

I don't know of anyone who argues that the oxford comma is always right. But the times where it is more ambiguous than not using it in real language are really quite rare.

I see it argued often enough, and that is the implication made by images like the one Axxle posted.  In my experience, the times where not using it is more ambiguous than using it are equally rare.  That is to say, it usually doesn't matter whether you use it or not.  It should therefore come down to personal preference, or formal style guidelines if you are writing something that is supposed to conform to such guides.  If you prefer to use the Oxford comma, that's perfectly fine.  I just don't like it when people suggest that omitting it is wrong or somehow less proper.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that anybody in this thread has been condescending in any way, and I can accept any jabs that may have been made as light-hearted commentary.  I know nobody here means any harm.  But I've actually seen debates about the Oxford comma get deadly serious.  The Oxford comma is just not so important as some like to argue.



Now, to relieve some tension, I direct you all to Sir David Attenborough's narration of... curling.

[Polk5440]

The thing I hate about Oxford comma apologists is that they always imply or explicitly say that the Oxford comma removes ambiguity (and it often comes across a bit obnoxious or pretentious).  It's happened in this very thread.  But the thing is, it's untrue.  There are situations where the Oxford comma helps, but there are also plenty of situations where using it creates ambiguity.  Formal writing should always seek to minimize ambiguity and therefore it should use or omit the Oxford comma as necessary.

In the case where the Oxford comma makes no different, I usually prefer to leave it out.  If it doesn't remove ambiguity, it's just useless ornamentation.

Also, there are some people who take it too far and use the Oxford comma in lists of two.  Gross.

You put a comma between the first and second objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the last and second to last.  That might just be my slight OCD talking though.

You put the word "and" between the last and second to last objects in the list, it makes sense to put it between the first and second.

"lions and tigers and bears"

So, this is the argument I heard for not using the oxford comma. The comma replaces each instance of "and" in the list. You don't replace the last "and", so no comma is needed.

"lions, tigers and bears"

However, I am definitely an oxford comma user.

The ambiguities that are created by its use are almost exclusively because of parentheticals which can be very easily re-punctuated or moved around in a sentence.

"I have visited Ohio (my home state), California, and Massachusetts in the United States; Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Ontario in Canada; and Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, and Antigua and Barbuda in the Caribbean."

Edit: Oxford comma or serial comma?

[greatexpectations]

I went to the restaurant with Santa Claus, my son, and Miles Davis.

sounds like a fun holiday sequel for weekend at bernies.

[Axxle]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

[Kirian]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

I... don't get it.

[greatexpectations]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

I... don't get it.

f.DS : scout jokes : : twitch plays pokemon : helix fossil jokes

[eHalcyon]

The ambiguities that are created by its use are almost exclusively because of parentheticals which can be very easily re-punctuated or moved around in a sentence.

The same thing can be said about ambiguities created by omitting the Oxford comma.

[Polk5440]

The ambiguities that are created by its use are almost exclusively because of parentheticals which can be very easily re-punctuated or moved around in a sentence.

The same thing can be said about ambiguities created by omitting the Oxford comma.

The point is that there are more ambiguities from not using the Oxford commas in addition to parentheticals (esp. items with "and" in them) that are not so easily dealt with. So I agree with jonts that there are "more" cases of ambiguity to be resolved by not using the comma.

[Kirian]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

I... don't get it.

f.DS : scout jokes : : twitch plays pokemon : helix fossil jokes

Ah, I see.  I think.  Are there ammonite pokemon?

[KingZog3]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

I... don't get it.

f.DS : scout jokes : : twitch plays pokemon : helix fossil jokes

Ah, I see.  I think.  Are there ammonite pokemon?

The Helix fossil turns into one.

[eHalcyon]

The ambiguities that are created by its use are almost exclusively because of parentheticals which can be very easily re-punctuated or moved around in a sentence.

The same thing can be said about ambiguities created by omitting the Oxford comma.

The point is that there are more ambiguities from not using the Oxford commas in addition to parentheticals (esp. items with "and" in them) that are not so easily dealt with. So I agree with jonts that there are "more" cases of ambiguity to be resolved by not using the comma.

Citation needed.

But even if true, the majority of cases can still be fixed just by re-ordering the sentence.  Moreover, the cases where there is ambiguity either way are far rarer than cases where the Oxford comma makes no difference at all.  (Citation needed for these declarations too. )

The choice to use it or lose it when it's unambiguous either way is down to style guidelines and personal preference.

My point is that it doesn't matter most of the time and that the Oxford comma is also guilty of causing ambiguity at times.  That's all.

[eHalcyon]

Helix fossil plush: http://silkencat.deviantart.com/art/Helix-Fossil-Plush-436109308

I... don't get it.

f.DS : scout jokes : : twitch plays pokemon : helix fossil jokes

Ah, I see.  I think.  Are there ammonite pokemon?

The Helix fossil turns into one.

[Tables]

theory, this discussion that's been ongoing really needs to be separated out into the RSPG subforum. Thank you.