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[shraeye]

Hey Robz, what's your read on yuma right now?

[TheMunch]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

[ashersky]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

I agree more with Munch than with Robz on this one.

[Robz888]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

[Robz888]

Hey Robz, what's your read on yuma right now?

Pretty darn neutral. We have like opposite opinions, but I don't know that that makes him scum, it may just mean one of us is like way off on stuff. Very well could be me, given my track record as town. This strikes me as one of his most active games. Usually, I am always forgetting about yuma, invisiyuma and what not. Definitively, this is not the case here. He is active and memorable.

Where is Eevee? I feel like Eevee has barely been a part of Day 2.

[ashersky]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this.  We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.

I think mcmc's play could be seen that way.  It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.

[ashersky]

Where is Eevee? I feel like Eevee has barely been a part of Day 2.

Eevee continues to think he has obv!town status.

[TheMunch]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

What he should have followed through on wasn't the actual hammer vote specifically but the fact that he was supposedly waiting for one very specific thing to happen (everyone answers cuzz's question).  He could have been much more vocal about this fact and pushed people to generate the content that he was looking for (if that was in fact why he was waiting to hammer).  One post about Raerae's comment to Cuzz (I wont answer his question till he answers mine) doesn't cut it.  I agree it wouldn't have been the towniest thing to have hammered out of the blue.  But the fact that he didn't do one scummy thing doesn't mean that the thing that he DID do wasn't also scummy.

[Robz888]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this.  We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.

I think mcmc's play could be seen that way.  It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.

Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?

[TheMunch]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this.  We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.

I think mcmc's play could be seen that way.  It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.

Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?

Thats the exact opposite of what Ashersky is saying.

[Eevee]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

[ashersky]

@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post.  The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town.  He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.

But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.

Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this.  We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.

I think mcmc's play could be seen that way.  It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.

Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?

It was pro-town not to hammer, I guess, given Cuzz was town.  But we didn't know that.  And since we have the two scum teams angle, we can't just say straight out "but mcmc KNEW he was town, so he used that for towncred" either.  I mean, I get your argument, too.

I just still think it leans further to the scummy side.  Maybe it's due to lack of explanation at the time?  Like a "guys, you know what, I'm not going to hammer this dude, I think he's town."  He just rode it out.  Scum does that.

[ashersky]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

[TheMunch]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

There have been 3 main things today:

-Ashersky's scum slip and end of the day voting patterns
-Mcmc's intent to hammer
-Shraeye.

Feel free to comment on all of these...

[theorel]

But shraeye was like, POSITIVE, Cuzz was scum, and did even hesitate at all, even after Cuzz's claim. That's a little too much for me to believe. It makes shraeye's certainty seeming incredulous, and therefore, false.

I hope this isn't the new piece of info.  I'm a decisive person.  I had decided on a Cuzz lynch.  He looked scummy to me for a number of reasons, and I explained them all.  Somehow these reasons are being called manipulative a few times (theorel, Jimmm have mentioned this).

I don't understand the distinction between "reason that convinces shraeye, so he writes about it and other people are also convinced" and "manipulative reason".  I mean if my reasons are being called manipulative because people bought into them, then no lynch is gonna happen unless either A)somebody manipulates, or B)everybody somehow independently finds a person scummy, through no suggestion based on other people's reasons.

I know, that's taking it to the extremes and much farther than anyone here is explicitly saying.  But still I see myself being called manipulative simply because people were persuaded; that feels wrong.

Your reasons were not manipulative because people believed them.  I think your case was manipulative in the sense that you used false or very weak points to inflate it.  I pointed them out immediately, and also FOSed everyone who bought the case I found it so weak.  If you had only used the strong points in the case, then it's possible less people would have sheeped it, but it would have been clear exactly what argument you were making.  But the majority of my scum-read on you does not rest in you pushing Cuzz' lynch.
A fair portion rests in you pushing for Cuzz' lynch while voting for Jimmmmm.  Your two-pronged assault, both with weak reasoning, is such a scummy thing to me.  It reads to me so much like someone who is being proactively defensive.  Set town up with a couple targets hammer-em all day long with suspicion and surely my team will get off scott-free.  This is the manipulation, which I see in your play.  This is why you look so much like scum to me.

Also, I really hate arguments of the sort "if we didn't do it there would never be a lynch".  These are bad arguments full of fallacy.  In this particular case the fallacy is clearly in the "manipulative = convincing" which is not true.  It might be true that you weren't trying to be manipulative.  But it is my opinion, based on the information I have (i.e. your actual arguments and the way you approached them) that you were trying to manipulate town in a certain direction (presumably away from yourself and any team-mates).  Now maybe you just thought you had strong cases...I dealt with that when you made the cases.  The fact you refuse to recognize that this could be perceived as manipulative to people outside your own head sounds like an argument intending to mislead.

I do think that decisiveness is in fact anti-town.  It's basically saying, "I'm going to give into confirmation bias and read everything against this player, because I've decided this player is scum".  I doubt you see it/mean it that way, but it's always how I read a comment like that.

[theorel]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me???  I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm]  (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete.  I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)

[Eevee]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

There have been 3 main things today:

-Ashersky's scum slip and end of the day voting patterns
-Mcmc's intent to hammer
-Shraeye.

Feel free to comment on all of these...

-This I have given my opinion on already. I think the argument is not good, ashersky gets mislynched for something like this and his reactions to it ALL THE TIME as town. If it was someone else, I'd give it more weigh. I don't know what to glean from end of day voting, I was against the Cuzz lynch and happily jumped to shraeye when the wagon presented itself.
-This is exactly the kind of thing I don't know how to analyze. He probably didn't think much when making the statement, it wasn't some nefarious plan, I think he could have done it just as well as scum or as town. Noread.
-I found him scummy yesterday, I find him scummy still (interestingly he has always been pretty good at fooling me though). Others (theorel) have made the case better than I could, but it has been the most convincing for me.

[Eevee]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me???  I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm]  (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete.  I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)

yeah, i was just about to say this.  Oh well, my fault for asking for other people to pick! I'll try to do it next!

[ashersky]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me???  I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm]  (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete.  I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)

That was the point.

[Eevee]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me???  I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm]  (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete.  I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)

That was the point.

WHAT WAS? Don't say you did this just to spite me!

[Jimmmmm]

Eevee, what do you think of mcmc?

[ashersky]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

Theorel.

Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me???  I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm]  (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete.  I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)

That was the point.

WHAT WAS? Don't say you did this just to spite me!

No!  I meant that because theo is so hard to get a read on, I wanted someone with a good eye to go back and reread him.

I mean, the irony was just a bonus.

[shraeye]

Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.

Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.

reread me.  I feel like your opinion of me is a holdover from day1, and that you haven't really considered it at all for a while.

[yuma]

so before I go to bed I am going to try to put down my thoughts on both Glooble (I was hoping to get those questions answered before, but man, I know headaches and this is not a game suited for it) and mcmc... We will see how I do as I am supposed to be studying for a hematology final.

[shraeye]

I think your case was manipulative in the sense that you used false or very weak points to inflate it.  I pointed them out immediately, and also FOSed everyone who bought the case I found it so weak. 

I didn't find those points weak, and really didn't intend to inflate a case with them.  They were parts of the case.  There were minor things, but my scumhunting techniques relies on adding together many small parts.  The more small scummy parts in place, the more I can see that player being scum.

A fair portion rests in you pushing for Cuzz' lynch while voting for Jimmmmm.  Your two-pronged assault, both with weak reasoning, is such a scummy thing to me.  It reads to me so much like someone who is being proactively defensive.  Set town up with a couple targets hammer-em all day long with suspicion and surely my team will get off scott-free.  This is the manipulation, which I see in your play.  This is why you look so much like scum to me.

This is a fair point; I have often looked at people arguing two cases at once and said that they were scummy.  The problem for me during day1 was that I kept looking at Cuzz, and then at Jimmmm, and they were really sitting at virtually the same mental scumscore.  You often write things in terms of some sort of scumscore; I mean, what do you do when two people are up at 45 and nobody's talking about anything that feels substantial (at the point I started those cases, i think the deal with Eevee was the biggest thing).

It was definitely possible that one or both of those cases is wrong, so I wrote both cases and voted for Jimmm as I felt like he was at a 45.2 compared to Cuzz's 45.  Then plenty of people disagreed with the Jimmm case, so I kept looking at it and was asking myself "hmmm, is this maybe not as strong as I thought it was? How is it me and other people are getting very different opinions of Jimmm?"  I've said before that I'm a decisive scumhunter, and that is definitely true.  But I also reevaluate my reads quite often. (Jimmmm is sitting between slighttown and neutral right now).

But the case on Cuzz really took off in some people's eyes (still not in others, but I don't remember a case that hasn't had any detractors.  There always be detractors.) and they really seemed to be agreeing with the points I had laid out.  That case felt like it was definitely on scum, and I gained much misplaced confidence.

Also, I really hate arguments of the sort "if we didn't do it there would never be a lynch".  These are bad arguments full of fallacy.  In this particular case the fallacy is clearly in the "manipulative = convincing" which is not true. 

This was the fallacy I thought I was exposing.  But it seems you mean manipulative in a different way and you explained that well.  When I heard that my case was manipulative, it just sounded like people were upset that they were "convinced" by a case that ended up being on town, so they were blaming me for being "manipulative."

It might be true that you weren't trying to be manipulative.  But it is my opinion, based on the information I have (i.e. your actual arguments and the way you approached them) that you were trying to manipulate town in a certain direction (presumably away from yourself and any team-mates). 

In one sense, you're completely right.  I WAS trying to cause town to move in a certain direction...in that I thought Cuzz was a great lynch and wanted to make that happen.  This is where I come across the deal with manipulation =/= convincing; I was definitely working to *convince* town to move in a certain direction.  Absolutely.  But that direction isn't away from me or my hypothetical teammates, it was towards a lynch that I felt very sure would be successful.  And in this regard every scumhunter is trying to convince people of their reads.