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Author Topic: Talisman + Feodum  (Read 3839 times)

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eHalcyon

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Talisman + Feodum
« on: December 20, 2012, 12:26:31 am »
+1

Talisman is actually a pretty decent way to gain a whole bunch of Silver.  Open Talisman, buy Talisman or Silver with your Talisman hand, then keep hitting Silver and Feodum.  Works better with +Buy and card draw to play Talisman more often.  As a Feodum enabler, how do you guys think it compares to Silver gainers like Bureaucrat, JoaT and Explorer?

Related, but separate -- is Talisman a good enabler for Duke?  Seems like it would be pretty good for loading up on Silver to get you through heavy greening.
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werothegreat

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 01:02:35 am »
+2

I'd say Trader would be the king of Silver gainers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 01:14:46 am »
+1

I'd say Trader would be the king of Silver gainers.

Well, that one is a given. :P
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dondon151

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 01:36:32 am »
+1

Talisman is always an iffy Silver-gainer because it is entirely useless in hands where you want to buy VP. You also have to buy some Talismans to start out as well.
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brokoli

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 04:08:52 am »
+1

Yes, this combo works very well.

Feodum is very strong, even for hybrid province strategies. I think it's probably the strongest Alt VP card up to now.
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Davio

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 06:51:48 am »
+1

Yes, this combo works very well.

Feodum is very strong, even for hybrid province strategies. I think it's probably the strongest Alt VP card up to now.
That's a pretty bold statement and not something I expected at all... :o
Not sure if serious... ::)
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brokoli

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 06:56:37 am »
+1

That's a pretty bold statement and not something I expected at all... :o
Not sure if serious... ::)
I know. But I played a bunch of games with feodum and there are a lot of good combo cards : All silver gainers, Workshop-Armory-Ironworks-Talisman, Rebuild, Rogue, Graverobber and lot of trashers. Really, any "flood your deck by silvers" strategy is powerful with feodum on the board. I'm pretty sure feodum is at least a viable strategy much more often than gardens and silk road.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 07:00:08 am by brokoli »
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DG

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 08:27:12 am »
+1

Quote
Related, but separate -- is Talisman a good enabler for Duke?  Seems like it would be pretty good for loading up on Silver to get you through heavy greening.

There can be small window of opportunity to buy a talisman. You would still need to be judicious in its use since any advantage can be easily lost if you buy too late, too many, or misread the kingdom.
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werothegreat

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 09:13:33 am »
+1

That's a pretty bold statement and not something I expected at all... :o
Not sure if serious... ::)
I know. But I played a bunch of games with feodum and there are a lot of good combo cards : All silver gainers, Workshop-Armory-Ironworks-Talisman, Rebuild, Rogue, Graverobber and lot of trashers. Really, any "flood your deck by silvers" strategy is powerful with feodum on the board. I'm pretty sure feodum is at least a viable strategy much more often than gardens and silk road.

Actually, I'd say it goes Silk Road > Feodum > Gardens.  Silk Road self-helps, unlike the other two, and only gets better when you go for Provinces.
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brokoli

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 12:12:29 pm »
0

That's a pretty bold statement and not something I expected at all... :o
Not sure if serious... ::)
I know. But I played a bunch of games with feodum and there are a lot of good combo cards : All silver gainers, Workshop-Armory-Ironworks-Talisman, Rebuild, Rogue, Graverobber and lot of trashers. Really, any "flood your deck by silvers" strategy is powerful with feodum on the board. I'm pretty sure feodum is at least a viable strategy much more often than gardens and silk road.

Actually, I'd say it goes Silk Road > Feodum > Gardens.  Silk Road self-helps, unlike the other two, and only gets better when you go for Provinces.

So, here is a game I just played on goko : http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20121220/log.5058a28af93b9113b758ba19.1356023078664.txt
I tried for the first time a feodum strategy with the only support of... develop !!!
I almost won against the province player bot. If I had not trashed that feodum last turn, I would've won.
It really show how powerful is feodum : Even with a weak support card, even in an engine-ish board, it's competitive.
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dondon151

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 12:36:25 pm »
+1

I don't think that Develop is as weak as you suggest. It gives you 4 Silvers upon trashing Feodum and throws in a $5 card to boot, and it turns Estates into Silvers.

My impression of Feodum is the opposite. It's so hard for it to be worth much if an opponent plays defense correctly. Terminal Silver-gainers like Workshop, Ironworks, Armory, etc. gain Silvers at a snail's pace and has to gain Feodum as well. You need to be gaining basically a Silver almost every turn in order for a Feodum to be equivalent to a Province VP-wise by the end of a game against a decently strong BM-Province strategy.

The best way to maximize the VP from Feodum is to trash some of them. But that leaves fewer left over for you to have at the end of the game, and a sharp opponent can just take a couple from the pile to exacerbate the problem.

The good thing about Feodum is that it's fairly easy to pick up Duchies and even a Province every now and then, and it tends to be worth very little to opponents who do not pursue Feodum as a strategy (since a lot of decks, especially engines, don't end the game with 6 Silvers, much less 3).

(Also you wouldn't have won that game if you didn't trash the Feodum on the last turn. You would have had 16 Silver and 5 Feodums, but also 1 less Duchy, so 44 points. If you had bought a Silver instead of an Estate on the last turn, you would have tied.)
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DG

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 12:41:46 pm »
0

Quote
I tried for the first time a feodum strategy with the only support of... develop !!!

I had a game against the bots on Goko with remake and foedums and that worked. You can remake a silver to foedum and foedum to duchy, gaining silvers, and the draws are likely to put your remake into hand with more silvers and foedums next time.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 12:45:59 pm »
0

It is possible to playtest Talisman+Feodum on iso.  Just sub in Gardens or Silk Road for Feodum.  You'd have to calculate points manually and you can't make use of Feodum trashing, but that's OK for testing Talisman.
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brokoli

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 01:03:04 pm »
0

The good thing about Feodum is that it's fairly easy to pick up Duchies and even a Province every now and then, and it tends to be worth very little to opponents who do not pursue Feodum as a strategy (since a lot of decks, especially engines, don't end the game with 6 Silvers, much less 3).
But man, this is such a huge advantage...
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werothegreat

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 01:07:29 pm »
+1

Take a look.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20121220/log.505c6195a2e6c78ad2ed5a99.1356026810761.txt

I may not have played it optimally.

EDIT: I got each Feodum worth 6 points.  I probably should have Talisman'd more Talismans and Silvers.  Or put a cheaper +Buy in there.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 01:09:02 pm by werothegreat »
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dondon151

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 07:01:39 pm »
0

But man, that's 51 points in 26 turns. You were probably just trying to end the game on piles, but that doesn't look like a winning combo to me.
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dondon151

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2012, 07:03:34 pm »
0

But man, this is such a huge advantage...

So that's only one side of the coin. There's a smaller subset of engines that might benefit more from sniping the Feodum and trashing it for the 3 Silvers. They'll only want to do this twice at most, unless there's a good way to turn Silvers into something better.

EDIT: Oops, double post.
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werothegreat

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 07:26:39 pm »
+1

Really, I'd only ever seriously buy Feodum with Trader.  Or I'd pick up a couple if my opponent was going for it.
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ftl

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 07:39:12 pm »
0

You can do feodum if you have a trasher and a gainer-from-trash around maybe. I've had a good Feodum game IRL where I went upgrade-rogue, trashing Feodums for silvers and then getting them back from the trash with Rogue.

I still don't know whether this was actually a viable strategy or whether my opponent was just being slow, since he was also new to Dark Ages.
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brokoli

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 05:25:26 am »
0

Really, I'd only ever seriously buy Feodum with Trader.  Or I'd pick up a couple if my opponent was going for it.
Believe me, you are underrating feodum a lot.
We will talk about that in a few months !  ;)
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Talisman + Feodum
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2012, 06:36:51 am »
0

I once did a Feodum strategy with Squire, which turned out to be more effective than with other silver gainers because you can get tons of Squires and don't really care about collision.
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