Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: mail-mi on December 08, 2013, 11:28:13 pm
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The Wheel of Time turns, and the Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
Welcome to
RMM13: Wheel of Time Mafia!
Mod: mail-mi. Comod: Jorbles
Signups are closed
1. Archetype Lanfear, the Daughter of the Night, a 1-shot Nymphomaniac Godfather--WINNER!
2. yuma Aviendha of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel, a Maiden of the Spear, a Vig of All Trades--Endgamed on D5
3. XerxesPraelor Egwene al'Vere, a Dreamwalker, a Semi-Innocent Mailman--Killed N3
4. xeiron Matrim (Mat) Cauthon, the Lucky Ta'veren, a Semi-Ascetic Townie--Killed N3
5. faust Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw, a Viewer (Voyeur)--Killed N1
6. Twistedarcher Padan Fain, Mordeth's Tainted Darkfriend, a 1-shot Forsaken Immune Thieving Serial Killer--Lynched D3
7. Witherweaver Rahvin, the Diplomat, a Redirector--Killed N2 BUT STILL A WINNER
8. shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.--Killed N1
9. sudgy Elayne Trankand, a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)--Lynched D1
10. A Drowned Kernel Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, a Tainted Cop--Dayvigged D2
11. AndrewisFTTW Nynaeve al'Meara, the Wisdom, a Split Jailkeeper--Lynched D5
12. Jimmmmm Faile Bashere, a Hunter of the Horn, a Tracker--Endgamed D5
13. ashersky Moghedien, the Spider, a Rolecop--Lynched D4 BUT STILL A WINNER
Basic Mafia Ruleset Changes in limegreen
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for any mafia game on this site. If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.
Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.
Game Summary:
Mafia is a social deduction game. There is an "informed minority" (the mafia) and an "uninformed majority" (the town). The mafia know who each other are, and are trying to be the only people left alive. The town doesn't know who anybody else is, and are trying to find and lynch all of the mafia. The mafia, to make sure the town doesn't know who they are, must pretend to be town to win. The mafia usually can kill at night, to help them in being the only ones left alive.
1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines). If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used. If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. This game will have 10 day deadlines and 48 hour night deadlines.
5. If there is no majority lynch by deadline, it will be a no lynch.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. If the thread is locked, you may not post. Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post. The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
11. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.
3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, colored text is reserved for the Mods. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods are up to you. They are not sent automatically.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread. A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique. (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.
Helpful Links:
Wiki Links:
--Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
--Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
--Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
--Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
--Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
Forum Links:
--Vacation/Limited Access announcements (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.0)
--Mafia Lingo/Dictionary (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0)
Specifics to follow!
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This will be a typical RMM game: Everyone will get a role and a flavor name, and everyone will love their role. All scum will get a flavor fakeclaim. Flavor is gonna be awesome, if you're a Wheel of Time nerd (like me) you'll wet your pants. A lot of work has been put into this to strive for balance, but I cannot guarantee it, as this is, in fact, RMM. I hope you sign up because it's gonna be awesome!
More Specifics: There will be only 1 scum team, and there may or may not be a third party role like a Serial Killer or Survivor. Roles that change players' alignment, that effect the flip, and that allow people to vote secretly will not be in the game (including Cult Master, Tailor, Janitor, Governor, Doublevoter, Miller, etc.).
Sample PM:
Welcome to RMM13, Jorbles. You are Galad Damodred, Warder-in-training.
Why can't everyone else see the world as you do? You've always had a good sense of right and wrong, Light and Shadow. Other people just don't see it that way. Well. You've been training at the White Tower to become a Warder, and you'll be using those skills, along with your sense of morality, to rat out the Shadow and win the Last Battle.
You are a Cop-Vigilante.
-Each night, you may send me the name of a player. I will tell you their alignment.
-If the person you target is a Forsaken, or targeted a member of the Light that night, you will kill them.
Please confirm by PM.
Dovei'andi se tovya sagain. It's time to toss the dice.
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/tag
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/tag
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/tag
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Haha, lots of tags because if its like the wheel of time days will be 3 million days long and nothing much will happen except the promise of something in the next day, then it will finally get good once everybody playing has given up on it being good and then it will cliche itself out to the end?
(Too obvious joke?)
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/tag....
2. This game will most likely be able to go into yuma's stats.
While it might be eligible it won't be able to. I only accept normal/newbie/blitz games into my stats. If you want this game to be counted for stats it needs to go into the normal/invented queue. This is because how people play RMM games is different than how they play normal. You might compare it to how a NBA player would play a pre-season or All-star game compared to how they would play a regular season game. Or a FIFA friendly to a FIFA World Cup Qualifier.
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Hey, I'll /in!
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/in
I smell fresh blood looking for some action?
Big Julie from Guys and Dolls
BTW Im the fresh blood, cant wait for my first mafia game!
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well, let's put this on my radar at least.
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/in
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BUMP!
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/in
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/out
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/out
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Just xeiron and I? :( C'mon people, signup! I've never read the books (though my friend highly recommends them!), but I don't mind pee-inducing flavor.
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Comod signing in.
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Added 4 in the specifics.
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Made some balance changes in the setup. It's going to be fun!
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mail-mi and I have spent a long time batting the ideas for this one back and forth and I think it's a really fun setup. Though it's a hidden setup and it is role madness it is setup for balance. As with most RM games there's some roles that can get lucky and swing things a bit towards one team or another, but I think it is a fun and fair setup.
On a side note, for fans of the series I'm working on the final book right now, and I'm excited this game timed itself to open for signups at the same time as I finish the series I started back in the 90s.
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as with most RMM games, I am willing to be a backup, but I don't think I will be /inning specifically.
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BUMP!
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Bump? I can promise you 1. it is going to be awesome 2. you are going to love your role no matter what you get and 3. it's nothing like shadows over camelot. It'll be great!
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Yes! Signup everyone! :)
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Bump? I can promise you 1. it is going to be awesome 2. you are going to love your role no matter what you get and 3. it's nothing like shadows over camelot. It'll be great!
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Bump! I even put up a sample PM for you guys.
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I'll official in (just checking that I can mail-mi. I know I talked with you on some RMM roles in the past and hope that doesn't disqualify me from this game)
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I'll official in (just checking that I can mail-mi. I know I talked with you on some RMM roles in the past and hope that doesn't disqualify me from this game)
Yep!
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/in
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What does RMM stand for?
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What does RMM stand for?
Role MADNESSS mafia.
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Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
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Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
I really want you to join, but I would advise you at least complete 1 normal game first.
Btw, that book has an awesome ending.
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Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
I really want you to join, but I would advise you at least complete 1 normal game first.
Btw, that book has an awesome ending.
Yeah, even a few days of Adventure Time would serve you well.
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mail-mi...HOW role madness will this be?
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mail-mi...HOW role madness will this be?
How do i put this.... It's stat-eligible, if yuma decides to do the RMMs he's specified. But not too un-crazy that it would be normal.
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dang; i like the wiggity-wack ones the best.
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dang; i like the wiggity-wack ones the best.
Well there will still be some "wiggity-wack"ness of course.
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mail-mi...HOW role madness will this be?
How do i put this.... It's stat-eligible, if yuma decides to do the RMMs he's specified. But not too un-crazy that it would be normal.
How does yuma determine if it's stat eligible? There's definitely some weird roles and interactions, but I don't think there's anything that's considered bastardly. (No alignment switching anyways, which is one of my least favourite things to have in a game.)
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
I remember him saying at one point if he did track RMM games, they would be ones without weird things like dice rolling or The One Ring. This one, like LOTR1, doesn't have any weird things like that.
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
I remember him saying at one point if he did track RMM games, they would be ones without weird things like dice rolling or The One Ring. This one, like LOTR1, doesn't have any weird things like that.
I was assuming the whole time that yuma wasn't going to track this. We tried for something balanced, but there wasn't any thought on my end of the creation about having it tracked for stats.
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
I remember him saying at one point if he did track RMM games, they would be ones without weird things like dice rolling or The One Ring. This one, like LOTR1, doesn't have any weird things like that.
I was assuming the whole time that yuma wasn't going to track this. We tried for something balanced, but there wasn't any thought on my end of the creation about having it tracked for stats.
He isn't. I'm just saying that if he did track RMM games, then this would be eligible.
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
I do!
(Speaking of which, I need to input more stats...)
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Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
I really want you to join, but I would advise you at least complete 1 normal game first.
Btw, that book has an awesome ending.
I don't know why I said Lord of Chaos. I'm actually in the middle of Fires of Heaven. This book is apparently when everyone slows way down, although I haven't had a problem with it yet.
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Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
I really want you to join, but I would advise you at least complete 1 normal game first.
Btw, that book has an awesome ending.
I don't know why I said Lord of Chaos. I'm actually in the middle of Fires of Heaven. This book is apparently when everyone slows way down, although I haven't had a problem with it yet.
Having quickly looked at the plot summaries of the series, I don't think it slows down until Lord of Chaos, then it picks up again in Winter's Heart. That's not to say that the books in between are bad, or lack plot.
Very minor spoilery hints at what might happen in later books:
There's still lots of things happening they just don't seem to progress as rapidly as the previous ones. At that point I'd say the series seems to actually start wrapping up some of the many plotlines introduced in earlier books. I'd say that around Lord of Chaos it is more accurate to say that the books start to suffer from character bloat. Too many perspective characters that are all doing different things, so the story must jump from person to person who are in totally different settings that need to be explained. Around Winter's Heart they stop introducing new people and start tying up loose ends (some people die, some people just end up in the same room more often, some people's perspective's become less crucial to the story and are thus not told as often). There's a little bit of back and forth in the series where the occasional new character line pops up after that, but it seems more managed. Around Lord of Chaos it starts being problematic, continues to until Winter's Heart where it seems to get under control again. All that said if you like a character they are written consistently throughout so their story lines will continue to interest you even if you occasionally feel like maybe there's a bit much going on.
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yuma doesn't track RMM. Full stop.
I remember him saying at one point if he did track RMM games, they would be ones without weird things like dice rolling or The One Ring. This one, like LOTR1, doesn't have any weird things like that.
I was assuming the whole time that yuma wasn't going to track this. We tried for something balanced, but there wasn't any thought on my end of the creation about having it tracked for stats.
He isn't. I'm just saying that if he did track RMM games, then this would be eligible.
Yep. I don't track RMM games, partially because some are wacky, but more importantly because RMM games are played differently. For me they are like the All-Star game, or pre-season or FIFA friendlies. For example, I play much more loose and free (also post a lot less) and just don't get nearly as competitive and so I don't like the idea of mixing stats with normal games.
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I'm only in one mafia game, how can that be?
/in
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BUMP!
Total newbie here but I'm in the middle of Lord of Chaos so I'm tempted...
I really want you to join, but I would advise you at least complete 1 normal game first.
Btw, that book has an awesome ending.
I don't know why I said Lord of Chaos. I'm actually in the middle of Fires of Heaven. This book is apparently when everyone slows way down, although I haven't had a problem with it yet.
Having quickly looked at the plot summaries of the series, I don't think it slows down until Lord of Chaos, then it picks up again in Winter's Heart. That's not to say that the books in between are bad, or lack plot.
Very minor spoilery hints at what might happen in later books:
There's still lots of things happening they just don't seem to progress as rapidly as the previous ones. At that point I'd say the series seems to actually start wrapping up some of the many plotlines introduced in earlier books. I'd say that around Lord of Chaos it is more accurate to say that the books start to suffer from character bloat. Too many perspective characters that are all doing different things, so the story must jump from person to person who are in totally different settings that need to be explained. Around Winter's Heart they stop introducing new people and start tying up loose ends (some people die, some people just end up in the same room more often, some people's perspective's become less crucial to the story and are thus not told as often). There's a little bit of back and forth in the series where the occasional new character line pops up after that, but it seems more managed. Around Lord of Chaos it starts being problematic, continues to until Winter's Heart where it seems to get under control again. All that said if you like a character they are written consistently throughout so their story lines will continue to interest you even if you occasionally feel like maybe there's a bit much going on.
Winter's Heart is where the character slog ends, and the story slog begins. Crossroads of Twilight is just so slow, it's literally "Mat continues to try to blah blah blah, Perrin continues to try to blah blah blah, Egwene continues to try to blah blah blah, Elayne continues to try to blah blah blah..." Almost nothing important happens in that book.
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/in
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So 7 more to start?
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So 7 more to start?
yes.... and you could take that down to 6!
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So 7 more to start?
yes.... and you could take that down to 6!
You know I prefer to hammer when possible.
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That sounds like an \in. :P
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I'm interested. But I've never played a forum game before. Is it okay to start here?
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This would be a little complicated for a first mafia game, but if you're familiar with mafia it might not be too overwhelming. Have you played mafia before?
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This would be a little complicated for a first mafia game, but if you're familiar with mafia it might not be too overwhelming. Have you played mafia before?
In person, yes, a couple of times.
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This would be a little complicated for a first mafia game, but if you're familiar with mafia it might not be too overwhelming. Have you played mafia before?
In person, yes, a couple of times.
It would probably be okay as long as you're aware of the type of play that goes on in the normal forum mafia games, and you're willing to ask questions when you're unsure of something. People are usually helpful with new people asking questions about how roles might work, and as a mod I'd make a point of addressing any questions you had via PM about your role. The only other thing you might want to think of is the time involved. The games sometimes take a month or two and the time playing can take a little bit of time each day (much more on certain days).
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This would be a little complicated for a first mafia game, but if you're familiar with mafia it might not be too overwhelming. Have you played mafia before?
In person, yes, a couple of times.
It would probably be okay as long as you're aware of the type of play that goes on in the normal forum mafia games, and you're willing to ask questions when you're unsure of something. People are usually helpful with new people asking questions about how roles might work, and as a mod I'd make a point of addressing any questions you had via PM about your role. The only other thing you might want to think of is the time involved. The games sometimes take a month or two and the time playing can take a little bit of time each day (much more on certain days).
That all sounds good.. I have an office day job and check the forums regularly.
I'm /in.
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This would be a little complicated for a first mafia game, but if you're familiar with mafia it might not be too overwhelming. Have you played mafia before?
In person, yes, a couple of times.
It would probably be okay as long as you're aware of the type of play that goes on in the normal forum mafia games, and you're willing to ask questions when you're unsure of something. People are usually helpful with new people asking questions about how roles might work, and as a mod I'd make a point of addressing any questions you had via PM about your role. The only other thing you might want to think of is the time involved. The games sometimes take a month or two and the time playing can take a little bit of time each day (much more on certain days).
That all sounds good.. I have an office day job and check the forums regularly.
I'm /in.
Awesome! We're getting close then!
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I'm /in.
Cool!
It will be hard to consider you a newb given how much you post on the forums.
Anyways, welcome! Hope you enjoy the game and all of us other mafia-addicts.
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in for a penny, in for a pound.
I'm back to being /in for most mafia games I think. Also, there are two people I haven't played with before. I just hope hope hope that this doesn't start for like....two weeks minimum.
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in for a penny, in for a pound.
I'm back to being /in for most mafia games I think. Also, there are two people I haven't played with before. I just hope hope hope that this doesn't start for like....two weeks minimum.
At the rate we're going, it probably won't. :P
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in for a penny, in for a pound.
I'm back to being /in for most mafia games I think. Also, there are two people I haven't played with before. I just hope hope hope that this doesn't start for like....two weeks minimum.
At the rate we're going, it probably won't. :P
Are you sure?
/in
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Added some more specifics.
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4 month sign up, it really is like the book!
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Bazing!
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If I sign up for this does that disqualify me from the newbie mafia game?
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If I sign up for this does that disqualify me from the newbie mafia game?
No.
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Bazing!
...a?
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Bazinga?
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Bazinga?
Bazinga!
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This must be a regional difference, but I've never heard anyone say it that way. Here in Vancouver we say bazing (emphasis on the ZING).
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I'd like to live in Vancouver.
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This must be a regional difference, but I've never heard anyone say it that way. Here in Vancouver we say bazing (emphasis on the ZING).
Bazinga is from the Big Bang Theory--sheldon likes to say it.
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This must be a regional difference, but I've never heard anyone say it that way. Here in Vancouver we say bazing (emphasis on the ZING).
Bazinga is from the Big Bang Theory--sheldon likes to say it.
Wait... people actually watch that show?
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I'd like to live in Vancouver.
It's certainly nice. :)
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I'd like to live in Vancouver.
It's certainly nice. :)
jorbles chekc the mod qt.
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okay i'm /in
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Do you guys think I'm ready for RMM? ThIs would be game 3 for me, although the first two didn't last very long (for me at least).
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Do you guys think I'm ready for RMM? ThIs would be game 3 for me, although the first two didn't last very long (for me at least).
I think you would be just fine!
I think i would recommend going over this list of roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles) from mafia scum and realizing that mail-mi probably adapted or create new/similar roles.
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Do you guys think I'm ready for RMM? ThIs would be game 3 for me, although the first two didn't last very long (for me at least).
You can do anything you set your mind to, man
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Join so we can start this thing, there's a hole in my life where forum mafia used to be.
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Do you guys think I'm ready for RMM? ThIs would be game 3 for me, although the first two didn't last very long (for me at least).
You can do anything you set your mind to, man
Thanks brah! You rock!
/in
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Join so we can start this thing, there's a hole in my life where forum mafia used to be.
Just sign up for Philosopher's Mafia then !
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Do you guys think I'm ready for RMM? ThIs would be game 3 for me, although the first two didn't last very long (for me at least).
You can do anything you set your mind to, man
Can I play on Isotropic under my own name?
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1 spot left (assuming ash hammers)!!!!!!! WOOT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfHGPWP0vNg
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we just need one more! this game is going to be really awesome, pinky promise.
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/in!
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hammer
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YEAH! Alrighty then, ill finish up writing the PMs, leave the thread open for tags, and get started either tonight or tomorrow!
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guess now is a good time to give my caveat before getting my PM:
As with all RMM games I will post less, will reread less and take this game slightly less seriously as it is RMM and I am playing more for fun than I am to win. Interpret my posts accordingly!
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YEAH! Alrighty then, ill finish up writing the PMs, leave the thread open for tags, and get started either tonight or tomorrow!
Wait, this game has been waiting to fill this long an the PMs aren't done???
vote: mail-mi
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YEAH! Alrighty then, ill finish up writing the PMs, leave the thread open for tags, and get started either tonight or tomorrow!
Wait, this game has been waiting to fill this long an the PMs aren't done???
vote: mail-mi
heh i just haven't gotten around to it.
But anyway, now they're done! Thread Locked, PMs going out soon!
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OKAY! All PMs are out, please confirm by PM!
A clarification: Everything written in lime green italics is just flavor--it has no impact on the game whatsoever! It's just there for all you Wheel of Time nerds out there.
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Just waiting on one more confirm!
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For all those of you that don't know flavor, this wiki (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/A_beginning) will be of good use to you to figure out your character and make the flavor more enjoyable.
still waiting on one more confirm.
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Okay, we have all of the confirmations, we'll start when I get home around 7 pm.
Thread unlocked for taggers only!
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/tag
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The Wheel of Time turns, and the Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose above the cursed plains known as the Blasted Lands. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
The wind blew across the barren hills of the Blasted Land, a place so tainted by the Shadow that not even the Dark One's minions dared live there. Westward the wind blew, across the foggy valley known as Thakan'dar, where nearly lifeless trolls forged the deadly blades wielded by Myrddraal out of human souls.
Around the mountainous spire of Shayol Ghul the wind howled, sounding eerily similar to a loud cry of pain. Appropriate, really, as Shayol Ghul was none other than the home of Sha'tain, or as he is better known, the Dark One. The Seals on the Dark One's prison were weakening, and he was reaching out of that mountain to touch the world, to twist it in his evil ways.
Here, the wind turned south, sailing across the Great Blight and through the Mountains of Dhoom. Through Arafel it flew, and then out over the mountain range known as the Black Hills. The stalks in the Caralain Grass shivered as it passed, and so did the people sitting upon it.
One of the members of the little party of 14 stood. "I brought you all here today to discuss our plans for the Last Battle. However, I sense that there are Darkfriends and Forsaken among us. Before we can discuss our plans, we must rat them out. And it could be any of us."
Another stood. "How do we know it isn't you!" they shouted.
The man that went under the pseudonym of mail-mi turned and looked at him. Then, he pulled out a thin white rod. The Oath Rod. Once bound to oaths from the Rod, they cannot be broken. "I swear I will not say any word that is untrue. I am not a Darkfriend." He looked back out the crowd. "Now, you decide. Who will be the next to take the Oath?
DAY 1 START!
THREAD UNLOCKED!
Vote Count 1.0:
Not Voting: Archetype, yuma, XerxerPraelor, xeiron, faust, Twistedarcher, Witherweaver, shraeye, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, ashersky.
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3rd at 8 pm FT (shortened to 9 days because april 4th is a friday)
(ps sorry for the delay.)
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BAM! First.
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13 seconds!
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Suuuuper pumped for this game even though I have zero knowledge of the flavor (but my friend tells me the books are great)!
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Vote: Arch
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13 seconds!
I'm dumb. 16 seconds!
Vote: Arch
Vote: Jimmmmm
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vote: yuma
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
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13 seconds!
I'm dumb. 16 seconds!
Lynch all Liars!
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
...what? No plan??
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
...what? No plan??
Says who?
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
...what? No plan??
Says who?
Says you.
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Okay guys some ground rules.
If you're ever upset or exasperated, the proper response is "Blood and ashes!" or, if you're really upset, "Blood and bloody ashes!". You can also go with something shorter like "Light!" I feel that's pretty important for this.
Oh, yeah, I'm also a newbie. So forgive me if I ask dumb questions.
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Okay guys some ground rules.
If you're ever upset or exasperated, the proper response is "Blood and ashes!" or, if you're really upset, "Blood and bloody ashes!". You can also go with something shorter like "Light!" I feel that's pretty important for this.
Oh, yeah, I'm also a newbie. So forgive me if I ask dumb questions.
Watch your mouth!
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Okay guys some ground rules.
If you're ever upset or exasperated, the proper response is "Blood and ashes!" or, if you're really upset, "Blood and bloody ashes!". You can also go with something shorter like "Light!" I feel that's pretty important for this.
Oh, yeah, I'm also a newbie. So forgive me if I ask dumb questions.
Watch your mouth!
I was just trying to help! Blood and ashes!
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Why wouldn't you want to play it after 5-6 days? Sorry, I'm confused by this.
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Why wouldn't you want to play it after 5-6 days? Sorry, I'm confused by this.
From what I've heard, the series was really good but should have ended 10 books ago.
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Why wouldn't you want to play it after 5-6 days? Sorry, I'm confused by this.
From what I've heard, the series was really good but should have ended 10 books ago.
Oh duh. I'm near the end of book 5 and it's still pretty good. I've heard that the series slows down at 6 and gets pretty awful at 9 and 10 before it starts getting good again. I'm looking forward to it.
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
So what is closed, and why treat it as a vanilla game?
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Vote: TA
I was going to make that joke. Also, mail-mi's probably going to die near the end and have to be replaced with a different mod.
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Vote: TA
I was going to make that joke. Also, mail-mi's probably going to die near the end and have to be replaced with a different mod.
Ouch. That's not right.
Vote: ADK
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
So what is closed, and why treat it as a vanilla game?
Closed means the players have no information about what PR's there are, or even what factions there are. As I understand it, the only bit we have is that everyone has some sort of non-vanilla ability. Ash is saying that since we have no info, we shouldn't discuss things like claiming at all.
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So do we play a mafia game for about 5-6 days, it'll be great and fun, then get forced to play another 10 days that no one wants to play when it should have been over months ago?
Why wouldn't you want to play it after 5-6 days? Sorry, I'm confused by this.
From what I've heard, the series was really good but should have ended 10 books ago.
Oh duh. I'm near the end of book 5 and it's still pretty good. I've heard that the series slows down at 6 and gets pretty awful at 9 and 10 before it starts getting good again. I'm looking forward to it.
Erroneous! Yes it gets slower after book 6 or 7, and yes you meet a lot of characters that you don't really care about and have trouble keeping track of. But I like slow burns. I liked reading all the books, and I think they all have something to offer.
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
Well I already have something to say:
I am a DayVig. I might be mandatory, I might not be. I'll probably say whether I am or not at a later juncture. But regardless, if/when I use this power I will fully be taking in town's consideration on who I might kill but I will not be bound to it because ultimately I trust my own reads more so than town as a collective whole as there is manipulation afoot here.
I am claiming 1. for this reason, to get input, but 2. I think it WIFOMs mafia enough to make them think about killing me--assuming I don't use my shot(s) today--(because I could be dangerous to them in taking out a mafia member during the day or I could be helpful to them in taking out a towie PR more beneficial to town than me)
But regardless of all of this I don't think we have ever seen a mafia dayvig before and I don't think we will ever see one. So while I won't say I am an IC I would hope that from your perspective you can increase your trust of me and my reads (but take them with a grain of salt because they are horribly bad).
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In general I am kinda against claiming. RMM less so, but obviously I felt there was a good reason for my doing so today with my given role. I won't necessarily say no one else should claim, but rather just caution that just because I claimed doesn't mean all other players should as well until we analyze the merits of claiming or not. Individuals may want to as they see fit, to them I would just say to make sure it is the right thing to do. I believe my claiming now was the right thing to do.
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Well so much for treating it like vanilla. I'm against a mass claim since we have no way to judge if it's a good idea or not, not knowing what roles there even potentially are.
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unvote
Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).
Onward!
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Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup. My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.
So what is closed, and why treat it as a vanilla game?
Closed means the players have no information about what PR's there are, or even what factions there are. As I understand it, the only bit we have is that everyone has some sort of non-vanilla ability. Ash is saying that since we have no info, we shouldn't discuss things like claiming at all.
there is merit to this. I have obviously already broken it and for what I think are good reasons. And I would argue that treating a RMM game like vanilla isn't always the best idea as 1. everyone has PRs and 2. we can coordinate those PRs in ways to find mafia better and 3. force mafia to commit to a fake claim early and potentially to their detriment.
The difference between RMM and normal mafia is really VTs. I am assumgin there are no or few VTs in this setup. Thus really any PR is probably worth killing whereas in normal games VTs aren't worth the nk and thus keeping things secret is potentially good. Here... I don't know. There is the drawback if some PRs are more powerful than others or if mafia can somehow manipulate the roles...
Basically what I am saying is that I think mass claiming early is generally more beneficial to town in RMM games than normal games and the drawbacks are less steep.
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Well so much for treating it like vanilla. I'm against a mass claim since we have no way to judge if it's a good idea or not, not knowing what roles there even potentially are.
Well, now we know there is (probably) a dayvig. In the world of claims, I don't see this as too bad. If mafia decide to NK him, we've lost a PR that most likely just kills another PR anyway (no offense yuma, but you know...your reads).
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Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).
Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.
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there is merit to this. I have obviously already broken it and for what I think are good reasons. And I would argue that treating a RMM game like vanilla isn't always the best idea as 1. everyone has PRs and 2. we can coordinate those PRs in ways to find mafia better and 3. force mafia to commit to a fake claim early and potentially to their detriment.
There are roles that exist that work well in concert with this idea to catch scum, too.
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(no offense yuma, but you know...your reads).
Are soooooooooooooo bad!
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Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).
Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.
Yeah, you are right. Damn!
Unless it's already in this game.
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Yeah I get why yuma claimed, but we should think carefully before deciding whether everyone should claim as well.
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Cool, not sure what to say about that but obviously don't lynch Yuma, verifiable. Maybe think about shooting D1 so you have your shot incase you get killed early -- I forget if you're generally pro or anti vig, but just use your best judgement.
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So I guess the idea of claiming would be that if the scum have scum-only roles, they'd have to lie about it, and we can try to catch them in it. But a lot of roles can be both scum and town, right? And on the other hand, it gives the scum a lot of information on who to night kill. (I guess you could lie as town, too.) It seems like it benefits scum more than town.
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(I guess you could lie as town, too.)
Don't lie as town. Just don't. Ever. Please.
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So I guess the idea of claiming would be that if the scum have scum-only roles, they'd have to lie about it, and we can try to catch them in it. But a lot of roles can be both scum and town, right? And on the other hand, it gives the scum a lot of information on who to night kill. (I guess you could lie as town, too.) It seems like it benefits scum more than town.
Yes but since this is RMM scum probably have PRs too.
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What's funny is that we always go down this road.
Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim. Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle. Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it. And then we talk about it some more.
Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it. Plus yuma claimed. At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.
Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
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What's funny is that we always go down this road.
Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim. Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle. Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it. And then we talk about it some more.
Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it. Plus yuma claimed. At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.
Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.
Do we have some sort of trend regarding alignments in favor/not in favor of claiming? Like, if you look back to all the RMM games, are Mafia members in favor of a massclaim?
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What's funny is that we always go down this road.
Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim. Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle. Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it. And then we talk about it some more.
Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it. Plus yuma claimed. At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.
Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.
Do we have some sort of trend regarding alignments in favor/not in favor of claiming? Like, if you look back to all the RMM games, are Mafia members in favor of a massclaim?
I haven't done the research, but I'd assume that a massclaim always favors scum in games with few or no VTs. If scum don't know what they're dealing with, it's more likely we can catch them doing something later or they miss a kill, etc. etc.
In my LOTR games, claims always helped the scum teams, for example.
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Vote: yuma
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(I guess you could lie as town, too.)
Don't lie as town. Just don't. Ever. Please.
This.
Catching scum in a lie is one the best methods we have for finding badguys in RMM.
We have won many games on the assumption that town never lies. Lying as town ruin this tool.
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...
I haven't done the research, but I'd assume that a massclaim always favors scum in games with few or no VTs. If scum don't know what they're dealing with, it's more likely we can catch them doing something later or they miss a kill, etc. etc.
In my LOTR games, claims always helped the scum teams, for example.
Pretty sure this is another game where claiming helps scum.
I say no claimig. I am interested in playing a whole game without massclaiming, for once. But that is not something we should decide now. Wheter it is a good idea, depens on the developement in the later stages of the game.
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Vote: yuma
Vote: sudgy
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(I guess you could lie as town, too.)
Don't lie as town. Just don't. Ever. Please.
Since this is f.ds, I would like to point out that there are edge cases to this rule. But yeah, mostly lying is bad.
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Vote: yuma
So, what's this?
Vote: sudgy
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
I seriously doubt that. At least if they only have their day shot. As scum, I think you absolutely need to be able to take dangerous players out of the game without everyone knowing that they are out of the game.
A SK that is DayVig additionally to his night kill could work if properly balanced, I think.
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that should read "without everyone knowing that you wanted them out of the game".
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
I seriously doubt that. At least if they only have their day shot. As scum, I think you absolutely need to be able to take dangerous players out of the game without everyone knowing that they are out of the game.
A SK that is DayVig additionally to his night kill could work if properly balanced, I think.
Yeah, I was thinking a similar thing. Maybe some kind of x-shot Day y-shot Night SK or something. Seems pretty unlikely though.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
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So I take it all day powers are visible to everyone?
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So I take it all day powers are visible to everyone?
Yes. At least every daypower have come across have been.
The player using his power post a command in bold, and then the mod usually confirms in some way that something has happened.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
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Sadly, I have no idea at all about Wheel of Time. So let me ask: in the context of the flavor, would you consider Mordeth a bad guy or a good guy?
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Sadly, I have no idea at all about Wheel of Time. So let me ask: in the context of the flavor, would you consider Mordeth a bad guy or a good guy?
Definitely third faction. Mordeth (who merged with the Darkfriend Padan Fain) is the cause of the corruption of Shadar Logoth. Shadar Logoth is a place feared by the Light and Dark alike. It's kind of like a force of independent evil. Mordeth did, however, partner up with the Dark One, in a way, towards the end of the series. But I think he was still his own device and working to his own ends.
Basically, everyone is afraid of Mordeth, even Myrddraal and the Forsaken.
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
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Sadly, I have no idea at all about Wheel of Time. So let me ask: in the context of the flavor, would you consider Mordeth a bad guy or a good guy?
Definitely third faction. Mordeth (who merged with the Darkfriend Padan Fain) is the cause of the corruption of Shadar Logoth. Shadar Logoth is a place feared by the Light and Dark alike. It's kind of like a force of independent evil. Mordeth did, however, partner up with the Dark One, in a way, towards the end of the series. But I think he was still his own device and working to his own ends.
Basically, everyone is afraid of Mordeth, even Myrddraal and the Forsaken.
I take it you know flavor.
What's funny is that we always go down this road.
Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim. Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle. Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it. And then we talk about it some more.
Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it. Plus yuma claimed. At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.
Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.
Yeah; this road is pretty unavoidable it seems. I'm much more ambivalent about this than I've been before. Basically, do what you want. And don't lie.
(I guess you could lie as town, too.)
Don't lie as town. Just don't. Ever. Please.
This.
Catching scum in a lie is one the best methods we have for finding badguys in RMM.
We have won many games on the assumption that town never lies. Lying as town ruin this tool.
yeah; you'd have to be craaazy to lie. just crraaaazzzzy.
Vote: yuma
So, what's this?
Vote: sudgy
yeah! what IS this? Or that?!?
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Nope, just calling you out on your terrible reasoning.
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Yeah, I like Wheel of Time, that's why I wanted to join this :)
The other option for a third faction is The Children of the Light. The character could be Lord Commander or High Inquisitor or something. These guys are basically Crusades or Spanish Inquisition types that believe they're doing the work of the Light, but really they just accuse, unjustly try, and kill whomever they don't like, which is pretty much everyone who is not them. If you read the books, they're real pricks. They cause just as much trouble for the good guys as the bad guys do.
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
But if you don't know anything about Wheel of Time, how did you know of Mordeth?
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Yeah, I like Wheel of Time, that's why I wanted to join this :)
The other option for a third faction is The Children of the Light. The character could be Lord Commander or High Inquisitor or something. These guys are basically Crusades or Spanish Inquisition types that believe they're doing the work of the Light, but really they just accuse, unjustly try, and kill whomever they don't like, which is pretty much everyone who is not them. If you read the books, they're real pricks. They cause just as much trouble for the good guys as the bad guys do.
you should quote things that you're responding to. Otherwise, things will get terribly confusing when we reread.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Nope, just calling you out on your terrible reasoning.
Is it just terrible terrible? Scum terrible? or simply bad terrible and you're exaggerating?
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
But if you don't know anything about Wheel of Time, how did you know of Mordeth?
This question is left as an exercise to the gentle reader.
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Sadly, I have no idea at all about Wheel of Time. So let me ask: in the context of the flavor, would you consider Mordeth a bad guy or a good guy?
I second that Mordeth is probably third-party.
Townread on Faust.
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
But if you don't know anything about Wheel of Time, how did you know of Mordeth?
This question is left as an exercise to the gentle reader.
This gentle reader sucks :( I didn't see anyone bring it up. You could have been searching a wiki for Wheel of Time characters, but there are about 4785 of those, so I'm not sure why you would have picked up on him.
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
But if you don't know anything about Wheel of Time, how did you know of Mordeth?
This question is left as an exercise to the gentle reader.
This gentle reader sucks :( I didn't see anyone bring it up. You could have been searching a wiki for Wheel of Time characters, but there are about 4785 of those, so I'm not sure why you would have picked up on him.
His flavor probably mentions or has something to do with Mordeth.
Yuma, if you had to use your DayVig right now, who would you pick?
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Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
But if you don't know anything about Wheel of Time, how did you know of Mordeth?
This question is left as an exercise to the gentle reader.
This gentle reader sucks :( I didn't see anyone bring it up. You could have been searching a wiki for Wheel of Time characters, but there are about 4785 of those, so I'm not sure why you would have picked up on him.
His flavor probably mentions or has something to do with Mordeth.
Yuma, if you had to use your DayVig right now, who would you pick?
I did consider that, but it didn't seem that likely. I could think of maybe one flavor that would.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Mordeth is only mentioned in the first book so maybe faust read the first book and gave up or something. More importantly, who cares?
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Or maybe he's Padan Fain.
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Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
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It's in mail-mi's introduction post at the beginning, do we really want to get into this flavor claim stuff? It's probably not helpful and will confuse people who haven't read the books.
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Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Policy vote: Xerxes
Don't just flavor claim without us having a consensus about it.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
I get a town read on Faust. It's suspicious, but, like, way too suspicious. If he was scum and really didn't know, I can't see bringing up Mordeth as a worthwhile risk. It being in his flavor text (though I'm not sure it is) points to him being Mat, which is as good as goodies get.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Vote: xeiron
Jimmmm was just asking a question (which my answer to is: no. I think it's very likely Yuma is Town). I think xeiron's vote was him jumping to conclusions too quickly.
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Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Please stop flavor-claiming.
I think this is a game where flavor matters.
Both because flavor and role are linked, and because I suspect that there are some events/mechanics going on based on chacacter interaction. Flavor claiming can give scum too much information on who to kill, roleblock. Etc.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Mordeth is only mentioned in the first book so maybe faust read the first book and gave up or something. More importantly, who cares?
I don't like that xeiron still hasn't answered this.
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I'm iffy on faust. According to Wither, Moredeath would be a 3rd party role. This could be a ploy by 3rdparty!faust to gain Towncred, but I'm leaning Town. The way Wither reacted to Moredead is scummy in a way that makes me think he could be Moredead if Faust isn't.
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Vote: xeiron
Jimmmm was just asking a question (which my answer to is: no. I think it's very likely Yuma is Town). I think xeiron's vote was him jumping to conclusions too quickly.
The other reason flavor claiming is bad is that it's distracting us from the other thing that's happening that's actually important, which is Yuma's claim and people's reaction to it. I'm going to go ahead and agree with arch that xeiron jumping on Jim is voteworthy here.
Vote: xeiron
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Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Mordeth is only mentioned in the first book so maybe faust read the first book and gave up or something. More importantly, who cares?
I don't like that xeiron still hasn't answered this.
This is a great question. I also want xeiron to answer it.
Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Policy vote: Xerxes
Don't just flavor claim without us having a consensus about it.
A policy vote over that?? You, sir, have much stricter policies than I do.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
I get a town read on Faust. It's suspicious, but, like, way too suspicious. If he was scum and really didn't know, I can't see bringing up Mordeth as a worthwhile risk. It being in his flavor text (though I'm not sure it is) points to him being Mat, which is as good as goodies get.
This is weird. Why is faust getting towncred? xeiron already said he has a townread on faust, then this (after a somewhat lengthy back-and-forth), and now Arch after he said he's iffy on him? Hmmm...
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Is a vote count possible?
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
I get a town read on Faust. It's suspicious, but, like, way too suspicious. If he was scum and really didn't know, I can't see bringing up Mordeth as a worthwhile risk. It being in his flavor text (though I'm not sure it is) points to him being Mat, which is as good as goodies get.
This is weird. Why is faust getting towncred? xeiron already said he has a townread on faust, then this (after a somewhat lengthy back-and-forth), and now Arch after he said he's iffy on him? Hmmm...
Because if he was scum, and he was honest about not knowing much about WoT, then bringing up Mordeth seems like a huge risk. He wouldn't know what flavor implications that could have, and it doesn't make sense to take that risk if he has something to hide.
He could actually be Mordeth.. but then why ask that question at all? And I can't imagine Padan Fain and Mordeth being separate characters. They're basically the same character throughout most of the series.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
I get a town read on Faust. It's suspicious, but, like, way too suspicious. If he was scum and really didn't know, I can't see bringing up Mordeth as a worthwhile risk. It being in his flavor text (though I'm not sure it is) points to him being Mat, which is as good as goodies get.
This is weird. Why is faust getting towncred? xeiron already said he has a townread on faust, then this (after a somewhat lengthy back-and-forth), and now Arch after he said he's iffy on him? Hmmm...
Because if he was scum, and he was honest about not knowing much about WoT, then bringing up Mordeth seems like a huge risk. He wouldn't know what flavor implications that could have, and it doesn't make sense to take that risk if he has something to hide.
He could actually be Mordeth.. but then why ask that question at all? And I can't imagine Padan Fain and Mordeth being separate characters. They're basically the same character throughout most of the series.
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
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There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
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I don't get why Faust is voting xerxes for role claiming after claiming knowledge of mordath.
Not sure what to make of Faust - it's possible he's mordath but if he is I'd imagine he'd want to stay quiet. Which means if he's town he has some connection, which would verify that there is a sk in the game. It's also possible he's mafia an heard about mordath from his partners, but it doesn't seem extremely likely to me. It would mean though if he flips that its guaranteed his partner has previous wot knowledge though.
I disapprove of xerxes flavor claim but it reads towny to me.
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@andrew and scum also wants us to be debating if there's a sk/ who it is, rather than who the mafia are.
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I don't get why Faust is voting xerxes for role claiming after claiming knowledge of mordath.
There's a difference between claiming because it might help use your role (which is what yuma did) and just randomly claiming (which is what Xerxes did). I think random claims are dangerous, since flavor is probably connected to roles, so I want to prevent them. Xerxes' claim could easily be a provided fakeclaim that he wanted to make use of. But what's more, my vote is there mainly to discourage people from doing stuff without considering the consequences.
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Right I get that, but you are also claiming something too that maybe you shouldn't have, but turning around and voting xerxes for claiming.
Why did you ask about mordath in thread rather than just googling it?
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Vote Count 1.1:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
yuma (2): ashersky, sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (1): AndrewisFTTW
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
faust (1): XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (1): faust
xeiron (2): Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
Not voting (4): Everyone else
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
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The not voting players are: yuma, Twistedarcher, Witherweaver, shraeye.
(I thought I'd be able to edit it in later.)
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@andrew and scum also wants us to be debating if there's a sk/ who it is, rather than who the mafia are.
Yeah you and ADK are right. In fact, I need to read up on roles some more. I'm heading out for a little bit, be back later.
PPE: Forgot I still had a vote on ADK. unvote
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I don't get why Faust is voting xerxes for role claiming after claiming knowledge of mordath.
There's a difference between claiming because it might help use your role (which is what yuma did) and just randomly claiming (which is what Xerxes did). I think random claims are dangerous, since flavor is probably connected to roles, so I want to prevent them. Xerxes' claim could easily be a provided fakeclaim that he wanted to make use of. But what's more, my vote is there mainly to discourage people from doing stuff without considering the consequences.
Twistedarcher makes a really good point. What I got from Xerxe's post is that it may actually help his role. I'll pull up his post in a little while.
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Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
The bolded part is what I was referring to.
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Unvote. People reacted to that a lot less than I was hoping they would... :(
Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Policy vote: Xerxes
Don't just flavor claim without us having a consensus about it.
I'll also policy Vote: XerxesPraelor. Where flavor is related to role, never claim it without consensus.
Speaking of flavor, does anybody have a place where I can look up flavor?
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Right I get that, but you are also claiming something too that maybe you shouldn't have, but turning around and voting xerxes for claiming.
Why did you ask about mordath in thread rather than just googling it?
I did google, but I was confused by what I found and couldn't tell if it meant he was good or evil. I have made the decision to ask after I considered the pros and cons.
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Unvote. People reacted to that a lot less than I was hoping they would... :(
Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Policy vote: Xerxes
Don't just flavor claim without us having a consensus about it.
I'll also policy Vote: XerxesPraelor. Where flavor is related to role, never claim it without consensus.
Speaking of flavor, does anybody have a place where I can look up flavor?
When I googled my dude it pulled up a Wheel of Time-opedia thing.
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Unvote. People reacted to that a lot less than I was hoping they would... :(
Also, does anyone have something in their PM saying they're attending a meeting?
Flavor claim: egwene.
Policy vote: Xerxes
Don't just flavor claim without us having a consensus about it.
I'll also policy Vote: XerxesPraelor. Where flavor is related to role, never claim it without consensus.
Speaking of flavor, does anybody have a place where I can look up flavor?
When I googled my dude it pulled up a Wheel of Time-opedia thing.
Probably http://wot.wikia.com (http://wot.wikia.com). It has a decent amount of information, I think, though it might not be updated with the latest books. It should have enough info on a given character, though.
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For all those of you that don't know flavor, this wiki (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/A_beginning) will be of good use to you to figure out your character and make the flavor more enjoyable.
still waiting on one more confirm.
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Jorbles missed my unvote.
Mail-mi, your link is hidden in the formatting.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
Does this mean you're Mordeth?
If I was Mordeth, I think I would know what kind of guy I am.
vote: faust
Sounds like he set himself up for this to look towny.
I get a town read on Faust. It's suspicious, but, like, way too suspicious. If he was scum and really didn't know, I can't see bringing up Mordeth as a worthwhile risk. It being in his flavor text (though I'm not sure it is) points to him being Mat, which is as good as goodies get.
This is weird. Why is faust getting towncred? xeiron already said he has a townread on faust, then this (after a somewhat lengthy back-and-forth), and now Arch after he said he's iffy on him? Hmmm...
Because if he was scum, and he was honest about not knowing much about WoT, then bringing up Mordeth seems like a huge risk. He wouldn't know what flavor implications that could have, and it doesn't make sense to take that risk if he has something to hide.
He could actually be Mordeth.. but then why ask that question at all? And I can't imagine Padan Fain and Mordeth being separate characters. They're basically the same character throughout most of the series.
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
How does Andrew know the number of scum? It's not listed anywhere--I just checked? Scum slip.
vote: andrew
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There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
Why does ADK know the number of scum and seem so sure there's a third party? Scum/SK slip, lynch tomorrow.
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Man, I just assumed based on the game size.
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I'm totally on board with ash.
Vote: andrew
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
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Vote Count 1.2:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
faust (1): XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, sudgy
xeiron (2): Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (2): ashersky, shraeye
Not voting (4): yuma, Twistedarcher, Witherweaver, AndrewisFTTW
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Jorbles missed my unvote.
Mail-mi, your link is hidden in the formatting.
(Apologies, it's irrelevant now.)
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Jorbles missed my unvote.
Mail-mi, your link is hidden in the formatting.
For all those of you that don't know flavor, this wiki (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/A_beginning) will be of good use to you to figure out your character and make the flavor more enjoyable.
still waiting on one more confirm.
Click on "this wiki." That's a link to a WoT wiki.
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Does yuma get to vig every single day?
...
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
How does Andrew know the number of scum? It's not listed anywhere--I just checked? Scum slip.
vote: andrew
I found this odd, too, but I thought that maybe there is a standard number of scum given the number of players.
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Sorry, I put my last reply inside a bunch of quotes. I meant to say "I found this odd, too, but I thought that maybe there is a standard number of scum given the number of players. " outside of all those quotes.
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Every setup I've played so far, the number of scum players was known before the game. The games where there were about this many players had three scum. I didn't realize that we don't actually know, though I assume that it's either 2 or 3, as more is probably too strong and 1 doesn't make sense.
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Every setup I've played so far, the number of scum players was known before the game. The games where there were about this many players had three scum. I didn't realize that we don't actually know, though I assume that it's either 2 or 3, as more is probably too strong and 1 doesn't make sense.
This sounds like a retractment to the earlier strong statement:
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
Also, why probably at least one third party?
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It is a retractment, earlier I was making an assumption and I realized that it was unfounded. My statement about their "probably" being a third party is based mostly on flavor and the fact that RMM games are supposed to be chaotic, so again, maybe I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't be.
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...
Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Getting defensive is not wrong, but it is something some persons do as scum.
On the same line, asking question is something both scum and town could do.
But since scum do have incentive to keep as many people as possible in the lynch pool, I found it was worth to keep an eye on jimm. By voting I draw attention, so that others can also keep an eye on jimm.
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Vote: xeiron
Jimmmm was just asking a question (which my answer to is: no. I think it's very likely Yuma is Town). I think xeiron's vote was him jumping to conclusions too quickly.
I am not concluding anything. I am drawing attention to somthing I think is worth noticing.
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ADK is flailing.
I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew. Could be town's fastest win ever.
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I think ashersky is jumping on newbies making a dumb mistake to push town into mislynches. The "fastest win ever thing" also seems calculated to appeal to people's egos; people like the idea of town winning quickly. It's enough for me to
Vote: ash
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antivote: ash.
He's doing great.
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I think ashersky is jumping on newbies making a dumb mistake to push town into mislynches. The "fastest win ever thing" also seems calculated to appeal to people's egos; people like the idea of town winning quickly. It's enough for me to
Vote: ash
This is OMGUS, given I just pointed out how you gave yourself away as scum/third party.
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...
Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Getting defensive is not wrong, but it is something some persons do as scum.
On the same line, asking question is something both scum and town could do.
But since scum do have incentive to keep as many people as possible in the lynch pool, I found it was worth to keep an eye on jimm. By voting I draw attention, so that others can also keep an eye on jimm.
...
Vote: xeiron
Jimmmm was just asking a question (which my answer to is: no. I think it's very likely Yuma is Town). I think xeiron's vote was him jumping to conclusions too quickly.
I am not concluding anything. I am drawing attention to somthing I think is worth noticing.
You're getting defensive. That's scummy, right?ADK is flailing.
I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew. Could be town's fastest win ever.
Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?
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Am I crazy for thinking that ash looks scummy here? Yeah, Andrew and I made a dumb assumption about the setup, it happens. Jumping in with "obviously they're scum, let's dayvig them and win" seems like a disproportionate response.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew [/]
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew [/]
Ok then please tell me how I'm supposed to react. I wasn't aware of a standard response to this sort of thing.
Anyway, when I see experienced players (like ash) say crazy things, it's either because they're town trying to provoke some sort of response to get what they think will be a better read or scum trying to make a big deal out of nothing and thus start a wagon bound for mislynch city. I don't know which ash is, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume there's scum voting for me right now. A re-read is in order.
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Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?
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Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?
So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.
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Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?
So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.
How is that ridiculous, though? As made clear in the OP, there's no way town has that information. There's no way for town to infer that information. It's just impossible to know as town.
But you stated it as fact. Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..." And who actually knows the number of scum in a game? Scum.
Occam's Razor points to you. The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him. He's either your partner or a third party himself. Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.
No offense to newbies, but this is why these types of games are hard for newbies to play without a lot of experience. Closed set-ups mean it's much easier for scum to "slip" and give away that they know more than they should. That's what you did here.
Is it possible it was just a newbie mistake? I mean, anything is possible. It just isn't probable. More likely it was a planned mistake to garner RobzIC status. But really, any of these alternate realities are just conspiracy theory excuses for you.
You have let us know how many scum exist on accident. Thanks for that.
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Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.
You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.
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Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:
But you stated it as fact. Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..." And who actually knows the number of scum in a game? Scum.
Occam's Razor points to you. The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him. He's either your partner or a third party himself. Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.
Here, you say that ADK is "adding in his knowledge of at least one...third party". You're tying this to the fact that he stated this as a fact, rather than "I assume" or "probably", but going back to look at ADK's post, we see:
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
These are the exact same reservations that you just said that wouldn't be scummy if made, it's only scummy when presented as a fact. But it's very clear ADK is putting this forward rather than presenting this as a fact.
Also, you seem to be saying that it's likely ADK is either "Andrew's partner or a third party himself". But it's impossible to pin both possibilities on him at once. If he's mafia, he has no clue if there's a third-party. If he's third-party, he has no confirmation on the number of scum. So saying he's either one of the other for a slip doesn't make sense when the two different things you are accusing him of don't have knowledge of one another.
I think there's a very good chance there's 3 scum personally. It's an assumption I make in a 13-player game. I don't recall seeing a 13-player game without 3 scum -- 2 is tough on mafia, 4 is tough on town. I don't think making that assumption and treating it like fact is truly scummy. I know that the scum team in Innovation (where I was scum) painted Xeiron (town) as scum for making the exact same mistake, when in reality, it's an assumption everyone makes. I'm sure that everyone coming in assumed 3 mafia -- I know I did. Yes, you want to make sure that you say "I am pretty sure there's 3 mafia, but I'm open to other possibilities / not getting blindsides by an extra scum", but saying "there's 3 mafia" doesn't indicate scumminess by itself, however.
What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.
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Wow. In my limited experience with mafia I have never seen or heard of a game with anything other than 2 or 3 mafia. Thus I assumed that's just how mafia is played and still nobody has told me otherwise. You're accusing me of a whole lot with not a lot to go on. All you have is that I thought there were 3 scum in this game and ADK posted right after me. Well that sure proves a lot.
I know you know a lot more about this game than I do and you can talk about occam's razor and setups IC status but sometimes even experienced players surprise me with their ability to completely narrow their focus on one little thing and magnify it so it looks like an absolute 100% scumtell when in actuality there's nothing there and they're just wrong, which is what you are.
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Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.
You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.
Who do you find scummier, Ash or Shraeye?
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What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.
Can you elaborate on what about my reactions are scummy?
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
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Why isn't it probable, though? This is the first closed setup game I've played, and so I assumed I had a piece of information that I didn't actually have. As for the third party thing, mail-mi's opening post says its a possibility, and the impression I got was that RMM games are supposed to have a lot of oddball power roles, so I assumed that a third party was a high probability. But I guess making assumptions was a bad idea.
You jumping on us, and shraeye following along, seemed like the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game, so I don't want my response to be automatically characterized as OMGUS. Even if ash is town I doubt I'm going to convince him at this point, so let's hear what everyone else has to say about this.
Who do you find scummier, Ash or Shraeye?
Now that I've calmed down a little maybe shraeye, he basically just sheeped ash there. I realize that I'm probably prejudiced against ash after Super Mario Bros.
Do you find them scummy, or am I just being overly reactionary?
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Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:
But you stated it as fact. Not, "I assume there are..." or "probably we're dealing with..." And who actually knows the number of scum in a game? Scum.
Occam's Razor points to you. The fact that ADK backed you up immediately afterward, as well as adding in his knowledge of at least one and possibly more third parties, is very bad for him. He's either your partner or a third party himself. Because the OP also doesn't guaranteed a third party, and yet he says there is at least one.
Here, you say that ADK is "adding in his knowledge of at least one...third party". You're tying this to the fact that he stated this as a fact, rather than "I assume" or "probably", but going back to look at ADK's post, we see:
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
These are the exact same reservations that you just said that wouldn't be scummy if made, it's only scummy when presented as a fact. But it's very clear ADK is putting this forward rather than presenting this as a fact.
Also, you seem to be saying that it's likely ADK is either "Andrew's partner or a third party himself". But it's impossible to pin both possibilities on him at once. If he's mafia, he has no clue if there's a third-party. If he's third-party, he has no confirmation on the number of scum. So saying he's either one of the other for a slip doesn't make sense when the two different things you are accusing him of don't have knowledge of one another.
I think there's a very good chance there's 3 scum personally. It's an assumption I make in a 13-player game. I don't recall seeing a 13-player game without 3 scum -- 2 is tough on mafia, 4 is tough on town. I don't think making that assumption and treating it like fact is truly scummy. I know that the scum team in Innovation (where I was scum) painted Xeiron (town) as scum for making the exact same mistake, when in reality, it's an assumption everyone makes. I'm sure that everyone coming in assumed 3 mafia -- I know I did. Yes, you want to make sure that you say "I am pretty sure there's 3 mafia, but I'm open to other possibilities / not getting blindsides by an extra scum", but saying "there's 3 mafia" doesn't indicate scumminess by itself, however.
What I do find scummy, though, is Andrew's reactions to all of this.
Fair point on ADK's wording. He did qualify his statement.
Unfair point on "good chance there's 3 scum" and the bolded line above. C9++, a well-regarded and often-used normal setup for regular mafia games, is 13 players with plenty of chances for only two scum. It's built in to the game.
There is no standard, and in a closed setup, assumptions like that are terrible for town. I point you to DS9, where everyone and their mother assumed a maximum number of scum, and then we were all wrong when there was like seven scum in the game.
We need to play the game and read the players, not the mods. Trying to figure out the mods is always the wrong way to play RMM. It doesn't work. I'm speaking from experience of designing and modding multiple successful RMM games, and watching town destroy themselves by making "well, ash would do X but not Y" arguments.
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But do you think it's unreasonable / unlikely for town to come in assuming 3 mafia? We are not debating whether its "correct" or not, but whether its a likely assumption for someone to make without knowledge of the scum team. I know I made that assumption.
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Andrew:
When did you realize that mafia games could have player amounts of more or less than 3?
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And what games have you already been in previous to this?
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I've been in Adventure Time and Star Wars which had 3 and 2 scum respectively. This is game 3 for me. I've checked out a lot of other games on this forum and they've all had either 2 or 3 scum. Obviously mafia games and customizable but for some reason I thought this wasn't any different given the size of the game.
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Vote: yuma
this was never explained
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
Don't like this line of thought, but it isn't necessarily scummy on either end... it reminds me of EFHW in Star Wars accusing me of wanting to lynch her when all I was doing was exploring the options fully (not being willing to give her full IC status until she was verifiably shown to be an IC) and I feel like Jimmmm is doing the same here (due diligence which is good) and xeiron is acting like EFHW (wanting to make sure he isn't mafia trying to prevent the creation of ICs) I agree more with Jimmm, but see where xeiron is coming from.
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Yuma, if you had to use your DayVig right now, who would you pick?
Right now I would pick you for asking me to pick someone when I haven't been able to assemble enough data points to pick someone to dayvig nor have I received any feedback from town.
But before you asked my answer would have been "I don't know"
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How does Andrew know the number of scum? It's not listed anywhere--I just checked? Scum slip.
vote: andrew
Yeah, I am going to call it here. I don't see it. Mostly I don't know of any situation where someone accused of this actually turned out to be scum. I know people accused of this have turned out to be town.
So really this amounts to nothing more me. Maybe not nothing, obviously it is something. But if I can use a comparison I haven't thought of before... if for me to want to lynch someone they have to get to 100 points, this is like 1 point in that bucket. A little bit, worth remembering down the road if other points get brought up, but certainly not enough to end day1 and lynch off and certainly not enough to call someone out as bonafide scum.
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There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
Why does ADK know the number of scum and seem so sure there's a third party? Scum/SK slip, lynch tomorrow.
see above
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ADK is flailing.
I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew. Could be town's fastest win ever.
Yeah... cause flailing is always a scumtrait... except when he isn't flailing but rather reacting rather normally to an irrational response to a mistake that he made.
And now way am I going to use my dayvig over something like this. I am more likely to use it on you for suggesting as such (which isn't something I am likely to do, just giving you an idea of how much I dislike your suggestion).
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Am I crazy for thinking that ash looks scummy here? Yeah, Andrew and I made a dumb assumption about the setup, it happens. Jumping in with "obviously they're scum, let's dayvig them and win" seems like a disproportionate response.
Given your knowledge of ash I don't think it is crazy. Given my knowledge of ash I have no read on him because of this. Ash has always had a "scumslip jumping" meta that has gotten him into far more trouble than good which he often conveniently forgets and is something that he replicates as both town and scum. So out of all of this the biggest thing I get is a giant zero, null read on ash.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew [/]
And this is the scummiest part if you ask me.
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Or he's town who legitimately thinks you're scum. Why are you dismissing that option?
So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.
Occam's Razor points to you.
I think you need a lesson on how Occam's Razor works. Because as far as I can tell you are making just as many--if not more--assumptions that these guys are scum together in someway. At the basics both are naturally more likely to be town just given the odds and given what they have played on f.ds previously can very easily make that mistake which is proven by players making the same mistake before as town.
So don't just say "Occam's Razor" when it is actually your theory that makes the greater leaps (both being scum in a pool where they are less likely to be scum than town) and assumptions that aren't based of previous experiences and results.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
and now I am thinking TA is less scummy from it based off this.
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But do you think it's unreasonable / unlikely for town to come in assuming 3 mafia? We are not debating whether its "correct" or not, but whether its a likely assumption for someone to make without knowledge of the scum team. I know I made that assumption.
Unlikely? I mean maybe not? People make assumptions, so that's something one could assume.
I firmly believe it is a dangerous assumption to make and you are hurting town if you play the game with that assumption. And you definitely shouldn't be making posts about it.
PPE: 13 posts. I didn't get to hit post and got called away. Will read now.
Are you trying to defend Andrew here? I mean, I get that you don't really like the scumslip argument (many don't), but you have said his reaction has been scummy.
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ash you have to make some amount of assumptions... that is how people live their lives. Otherwise we would have to react anew to every single situation that we find ourselves regardless of whether or not we have been in a similar place. It is one of the benefits of having an advanced brain. Humans use previous experiences to make assumptions. What is bad is when people use those assumptions and hold onto them in the face of directly disagreeing data.... which is exactly what you are doing to Andrew and ADK if you ask me.
I see nothing wrong with going into a game thinking 3 mafia is in this game. But as the game progresses be willing to mold that opinion and not do anything stupid in the process!
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yuma's posts are reading scummy, but his claim is basically conf!town until he's not conf!town.
Occam's Razor means the most likely thing to be true is probably true. (I think, right? I mean, if I'm wrong on that, then obviously I'm using the phrase incorrectly.)
So you run the scenarios of why Andrew says there are exactly 3 scum, and states that with a veracity that belies absolute knowledge. Here are possibilities:
--Andrew is scum, so he knows there are three of them.
--Andrew has a power role that told him on Night 0 how many scum there are.
--Andrew is a townie who made a mistake that requires he have an absolute conviction that there are 3 scum when he has no reason to believe that.
Am I missing anything? Please bring them up if there are more likely scenarios. But, based on likely scenarios, Occam's Razor says the most likely is true, and the most likely is Andrew is scum.
I've admitted to being less correct about ADK's statement, especially given how he qualified it with his parentheticals.
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ash you have to make some amount of assumptions... that is how people live their lives. Otherwise we would have to react anew to every single situation that we find ourselves regardless of whether or not we have been in a similar place. It is one of the benefits of having an advanced brain. Humans use previous experiences to make assumptions. What is bad is when people use those assumptions and hold onto them in the face of directly disagreeing data.... which is exactly what you are doing to Andrew and ADK if you ask me.
I see nothing wrong with going into a game thinking 3 mafia is in this game. But as the game progresses be willing to mold that opinion and not do anything stupid in the process!
This is false, and it kills us often.
How many people have entered games with me assuming I'm scum because I've been successful as scum in previous games. I mean, ADK admitted to having a bias against me due to Super Mario Mafia, even though the games are completely separate and a previous game has no bearing on my alignment in this one. But he's stated his bias, and he's letting that affect his play. That assumption that I'm likely scum based on previous experience is wrong and should not be accepted.
Just because previous games have had 3 scum does not mean this game has 3 scum. How is that even an assumption that makes sense.
A plane crashed yesterday, so I assume a plane will crash today. That's the same, and it's just as ridiculous.
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yuma's posts are reading scummy, but his claim is basically conf!town until he's not conf!town.
Occam's Razor means the most likely thing to be true is probably true. (I think, right? I mean, if I'm wrong on that, then obviously I'm using the phrase incorrectly.)
So you run the scenarios of why Andrew says there are exactly 3 scum, and states that with a veracity that belies absolute knowledge. Here are possibilities:
--Andrew is scum, so he knows there are three of them.
--Andrew has a power role that told him on Night 0 how many scum there are.
--Andrew is a townie who made a mistake that requires he have an absolute conviction that there are 3 scum when he has no reason to believe that.
Am I missing anything? Please bring them up if there are more likely scenarios. But, based on likely scenarios, Occam's Razor says the most likely is true, and the most likely is Andrew is scum.
I've admitted to being less correct about ADK's statement, especially given how he qualified it with his parentheticals.
Occam's Razor is making the least amount of assumptions, which is basically what you are stating here so I won't argue that point.
The point that I am going to argue is that in a game like this you can manipulate the number of assumptions to make one look longer and thus less likely, which is what I think you did above.
See I could put it this way:
--Andrew is scum, so he knows there are three of them and assume that he didn't have anyone to tell him not to say this in the thread and had to have rolled mafia 3/13... (see I just did the same thing!)
--not even going to go down that road cause it is the most unlikely....
--Andrew is a townie who roled town 10?/13 who made a mistake given his prior information of previous games
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If you don't think it was a scumslip, fine. To me, it looks like you are arguing it's a townslip.
Do you think this mistake makes him most likely town, making him a RobzIC and off the lynch table? Because that just seems as ridiculous as you are making me out to be for finding him obv!scum.
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I think him saying there's 3 scum says pretty much nothing about his alignment.
Occam's razor refers to simplicity, not likelihood, I believe.
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I think him saying there's 3 scum says pretty much nothing about his alignment.
Occam's razor refers to simplicity, not likelihood, I believe.
I disagree. I think it has to say something about his alignment, either that he absolutely scum or absolutely town.
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Just because previous games have had 3 scum does not mean this game has 3 scum. How is that even an assumption that makes sense.
A plane crashed yesterday, so I assume a plane will crash today. That's the same, and it's just as ridiculous.
Not the same at all actually. Because ALL previous big games I have seen have had 3 scum made it a pretty safe assumption to me that this one would have 3 also. I don't know the exact statistic but maybe 99% of planes don't crash, so I would absolutely not assume one would crash today. I don't know why you think I would.
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So ash thinks I'm scum and he's not going to be swayed. Fine. I don't think we need to spend pages discussing theory and the power of assumptions.
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I guess shraeye thinks I'm scum too? At least he voted for me. What do you think shraeye?
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This is false, and it kills us often.
How many people have entered games with me assuming I'm scum because I've been successful as scum in previous games. I mean, ADK admitted to having a bias against me due to Super Mario Mafia, even though the games are completely separate and a previous game has no bearing on my alignment in this one. But he's stated his bias, and he's letting that affect his play. That assumption that I'm likely scum based on previous experience is wrong and should not be accepted.
I'll agree, but you are using an example that is completely different from the one I gave. You can't even compare the two because one is made out of nothing, (bias) the other is based off data. An apt comparison would be (if this were true): assume that when ash points out scumslips he is more likely to be scum until seeing further data that indicates he isn't.
Just because previous games have had 3 scum does not mean this game has 3 scum. How is that even an assumption that makes sense.
It makes perfect sense if you know that in most situations a game with 2 scum or 4 scum is going to be difficult to balance and as of yet we have had no indications that there are 2 scum teams. If we see evidence that points otherwise you can adjust your assumption. Are you telling me you go into a game thinking "there could be 0 to 13 scum?" Because somewhere ash you are making assumptions. Apparently mine and ADK's or Andrew's is a bit more narrow than yours but doens' tmake them any less valid, especially as ADK and Andrew are newer and more likely to not think about alternative scum amounts
A plane crashed yesterday, so I assume a plane will crash today. That's the same, and it's just as ridiculous.
Now you are just being obtuse. The apt comparison here is: X amount of planes take off each year, Y amount crash. Since Y is such a small amount I will assume that this plane isn't going to crash.
But I am done with this conversation since you are obviously going to just call my points bad and scummy... also remember I have a dayvig and I just might get sick and tired of you and dayvig you. Yes that is a threat.
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I think him saying there's 3 scum says pretty much nothing about his alignment.
Occam's razor refers to simplicity, not likelihood, I believe.
I disagree. I think it has to say something about his alignment, either that he absolutely scum or absolutely town.
WHAT!?!?!? Why?
I have already said that this data point isn't enough to lynch someone off! If more assembles then maybe. But this alone isn't worth it at all. I don't make lynch decisions of isolated instances that may or may not be scummy.
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I guess I should add that I am being extremely facetious with the dayvig threat... it came off less jokey than I intended...
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So ash thinks I'm scum and he's not going to be swayed. Fine. I don't think we need to spend pages discussing theory and the power of assumptions.
Fair enough, but if he keeps pushing the issue without further evidence I am going to push back because I think it is a mistake to go down that road. And ashersky can be very convincing when he wants to be, so I see it is my job to counter that convincingness to make sure town doesn't end up in a worse situation.
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Is there something wrong with getting defensive?
Getting defensive is not wrong, but it is something some persons do as scum.
On the same line, asking question is something both scum and town could do.
But since scum do have incentive to keep as many people as possible in the lynch pool, I found it was worth to keep an eye on jimm. By voting I draw attention, so that others can also keep an eye on jimm.
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Vote: xeiron
Jimmmm was just asking a question (which my answer to is: no. I think it's very likely Yuma is Town). I think xeiron's vote was him jumping to conclusions too quickly.
I am not concluding anything. I am drawing attention to somthing I think is worth noticing.
Oh and please quote the entire conversation. Going back and trying to find the rest of it or trying to make sense of half of a conversation is really annoying.
And I'm still not liking you questioning Jim's defensiveness. Why not follow up with something that encourages more conversation instead of "drawing attention" as you like to say to Jim giving a reasonable rebuttal to your remark?
Just a really weird post all around.
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Just because previous games have had 3 scum does not mean this game has 3 scum. How is that even an assumption that makes sense.
A plane crashed yesterday, so I assume a plane will crash today. That's the same, and it's just as ridiculous.
Not the same at all actually. Because ALL previous big games I have seen have had 3 scum made it a pretty safe assumption to me that this one would have 3 also. I don't know the exact statistic but maybe 99% of planes don't crash, so I would absolutely not assume one would crash today. I don't know why you think I would.
Really? ALL previous big games have had 3 scum.
13 players, 4 scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.0
21 players, 5 scum + SK: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9308.0 (this is a great example, as it was closed)
16 players, 4 scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7019.0 (another closed)
13 players, 4 scum (2 teams): http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6894.0
15 players, 6 scum (2 teams): http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.0
16 players, 6 scum (2 teams): http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6168.0
16 players, 5 scum (2 teams) + SK: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3907.0
And that's just regular games. We're playing RMM, which has more variety.
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So ash thinks I'm scum and he's not going to be swayed. Fine. I don't think we need to spend pages discussing theory and the power of assumptions.
Fair enough, but if he keeps pushing the issue without further evidence I am going to push back because I think it is a mistake to go down that road. And ashersky can be very convincing when he wants to be, so I see it is my job to counter that convincingness to make sure town doesn't end up in a worse situation.
You may disagree, but by disputing my point, you are making a pro-town argument on Andrew's behalf, even if you don't mean to.
I am trying to be helpful and pointing out other scummy statements he makes, at least. Can you point to his towniness? If you think he's likely made a town mistake instead of a scum slip, there ought to be reasons for that.
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I didn't say all previous big games, I said all big games that I have seen; which, granted, is not a lot. But thank you for bringing this to my attention.
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Just because previous games have had 3 scum does not mean this game has 3 scum. How is that even an assumption that makes sense.
A plane crashed yesterday, so I assume a plane will crash today. That's the same, and it's just as ridiculous.
Not the same at all actually. Because ALL previous big games I have seen have had 3 scum made it a pretty safe assumption to me that this one would have 3 also. I don't know the exact statistic but maybe 99% of planes don't crash, so I would absolutely not assume one would crash today. I don't know why you think I would.
Really? ALL previous big games have had 3 scum.
All "big" games where Andrew has been around have had 3 scum. Why do you expect him to have an encyclopedic knowledge of f.ds setup history?
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So ash thinks I'm scum and he's not going to be swayed. Fine. I don't think we need to spend pages discussing theory and the power of assumptions.
Fair enough, but if he keeps pushing the issue without further evidence I am going to push back because I think it is a mistake to go down that road. And ashersky can be very convincing when he wants to be, so I see it is my job to counter that convincingness to make sure town doesn't end up in a worse situation.
You may disagree, but by disputing my point, you are making a pro-town argument on Andrew's behalf, even if you don't mean to.
I am trying to be helpful and pointing out other scummy statements he makes, at least. Can you point to his towniness? If you think he's likely made a town mistake instead of a scum slip, there ought to be reasons for that.
I am not interested in going around finding "townie" statements from him.
Ash go take a walk. You are driving me nuts.
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I didn't say all previous big games, I said all big games that I have seen; which, granted, is not a lot. But thank you for bringing this to my attention.
It's absolutely worth skimming a few of them, if only to see the setups mods have created. Do the same for RMM games. The variety mods have come up with is pretty fantastic, and it helps temper your assumptions in this and future games.
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All previous 13 player games with only one scum team have had 3 scum. But ash you are arguing over whether the assumption is correct, not if its reasonable. You are the only person who has said it's not. You have at least 4 people saying it is. All 4 of those people can't be scum therefore it's reasonably likely for town to have that assumption, therefore Andrew isn't necessarily scum.
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See what I did there? By saying all 4 of those people can't be scum, I assumed a 3 person scum team. Lynch me next!
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Vote Count 1.3:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
faust (1): XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, sudgy
xeiron (1): Archetype,
AndrewisFTTW (3): ashersky, shraeye, Twistedarcher
ashersky (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not voting (3): yuma, Witherweaver, AndrewisFTTW
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (I won't be home at that time, but that no votes will be accepted after that time.)
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Unvote
This game's just started and I already need to do a reread to sort things out. Where's everybody else? I can't think about mafia any more today, I'll get back to this tomorrow.
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Immediately after...
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell." Except he didn't assume anything. Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it. Read those words out loud. Listen to how they feel.
The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game. That's what that statement forces you to understand. The power of words are real. They are not wind, as Eevee would say.
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.
False. There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.
There's Frisk's famous original, of course. But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds. I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out. In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.
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There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.
Archetype makes a good point here about ADK's reaction to the statement.
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Ash go take a walk. You are driving me nuts.
How about you check your tone there, buddy. I'm asking you to defend yourself and your defense of Andrew. Instead of doing so, you play this card?
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Ash go take a walk. You are driving me nuts.
How about you check your tone there, buddy. I'm asking you to defend yourself and your defense of Andrew. Instead of doing so, you play this card?
Playing a card?
I don't play cards ash. I have emotions and I express my emotions. You are driving me nuts! How about you check your tone as well? Why do you think you are driving me nuts?
But I took my own advice and took a walk (figuratively speaking that is... I watched a Buffy episode instead).
I will say this one more time. I am not defending Andrew. At least not in the sense that you are saying that I am. I don't think he is town, I don't think he is scum. Right now he is null. There isn't enough data for me to have an opinion on him because I do not believe the slip that you are soooooooooo adamant about is enough to form any sort of a conclusion on. If I had to lean a certain way it would probably be toward town, but that is based more off how people are reacting to this than anything he has done. I am not going to go back and pull up a defense for him based off previous quotes because 1. there isn't enough to do that with and 2. I don't even know if I think he is town.
All I am saying is that this so called "slip" is overblown. Just like all the other "slips" that you have tried to get people lynched for--sometimes successfully to town's detriment.
Look, as long as I am around Andrew isn't getting lynched for this. He just isn't. If he does something else--I am keeping an open mind about all of it--then I will reconsider it just like I will with everything else that goes on for the rest of the day.
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.
False. There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.
There's Frisk's famous original, of course. But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds. I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out. In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.
or the <b>Voltgloss</b> slip that turned out to not be a slip or the half dozen times that someone said there is X amount of scum and they just turned out to be town assuming
Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?
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I went to the gym, ironically, right after your take a walk comment.
Your answer just now was all I was after.
As for driving you nuts, what's new?
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Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?
I've been scum six times in regular games. I've scumslipped in 2 of them. That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.
I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them. I'd think they'd be surprising.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell." Except he didn't assume anything. Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it. Read those words out loud. Listen to how they feel.
The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game. That's what that statement forces you to understand. The power of words are real. They are not wind, as Eevee would say.
But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.
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Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?
I've been scum six times in regular games. I've scumslipped in 2 of them. That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.
I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them. I'd think they'd be surprising.
One was intentional... the other I don't consider a scumslip the <b> one. Because both you and voltgloss frequent speccies often enough that the fact that you made that one could have as easily of happened as town. Goodness I made the opposite slip once in a speccy typing it out the wrong way!?!?! What does that say about me? Or how many times have I in speccies types out scum instead of town!?!?! Scumslips are a fabrication. And again, I ask you how many times have we successfully lynched mafia based off one of this inane slips? I can't think of one. How many times have we incorrectly lynched, or would have incorrectly lynched if sanity had not prevailed. I can think of a handful if not more.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell." Except he didn't assume anything. Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it. Read those words out loud. Listen to how they feel.
The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game. That's what that statement forces you to understand. The power of words are real. They are not wind, as Eevee would say.
But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.
Maybe. But as you like to say, we can only go on the data we have. I have words typed on a screen by a player called Andrew. The words he consciously typed tell us he knows (or thinks he knows, as you say) there are exactly 3 scum in this game.
Town who assumed incorrectly? Maybe, but if he's assuming as town, wouldn't he take into consideration the possibility of the third party, as the OP mentions? Or is he scum who knows there's three of them, but he's forgetting the possible 3rd party? Or maybe as a newbie he doesn't think third party means scum?
If we just assume everyone's assuming stuff, we'll never catch anyone doing anything. I can assume anything away. Oh, he did X scummy thing, but I think he did it based on an assumption, so that's null.
At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.
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Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?
I've been scum six times in regular games. I've scumslipped in 2 of them. That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.
I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them. I'd think they'd be surprising.
One was intentional... the other I don't consider a scumslip the <b> one. Because both you and voltgloss frequent speccies often enough that the fact that you made that one could have as easily of happened as town. Goodness I made the opposite slip once in a speccy typing it out the wrong way!?!?! What does that say about me? Or how many times have I in speccies types out scum instead of town!?!?! Scumslips are a fabrication. And again, I ask you how many times have we successfully lynched mafia based off one of this inane slips? I can't think of one. How many times have we incorrectly lynched, or would have incorrectly lynched if sanity had not prevailed. I can think of a handful if not more.
Frisk was lynched for his, was he not?
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At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.
How about later in the day when we have more data points to compare to and more people to see if he is scummy. Look I am not saying what he did points him as a shining beacon of townieness. I just refuse to look at one isolated instance and get up on top of my chair and shout "SCUM!!!!!!" at the top of my lungs. If Andrew is scum he will do other scummy things. Trust me (and the other townies) to see them and pinpoint them out. My reads have been bad, but aren't necessarily horrible. If Andrew is town, hopefully he won't do scummy things and we can lynch someone else.
For the mean time. We aren't going to lynch Andrew immediately. I don't want to say this conversation is over because I am not going to say who can control a conversation, but I am not really interested in taking up more space than we already have hashing this out when we both obviously already know each other's positions and neither of us are likely to change our mind.
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We've had this argument/discussion before, and just fall on opposite sides of it.
I absolutely believe in the existence of scumslips. This is like mafia RSP, but it's there. All scum, every single scum player in every single game, will at some point make a post that will allow town to catch them. No one is perfect. My definition of a scumslip is "a statement, made by scum, that inadvertently allows town to catch them."
I guess by that definition, you can argue my purposeful scumslip doesn't count. But look at Super Mario -- the speccy picked up on plenty that told them I was scum. Hell, so did Eevee and mcmc. I argued my way out of it. You could call the mistakes in my fake RB claim scumslips, because the people I claimed to have blocked gave me away as scum with too much information.
You (and others) refuse to believe or even consider that scumslips exist. They aren't always egregious, but I believe they absolutely exist.
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Frisk was lynched for his, was he not?
He was lynched, but not due to his slip. He was lynched for other reasons.
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At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.
How about later in the day when we have more data points to compare to and more people to see if he is scummy. Look I am not saying what he did points him as a shining beacon of townieness. I just refuse to look at one isolated instance and get up on top of my chair and shout "SCUM!!!!!!" at the top of my lungs. If Andrew is scum he will do other scummy things. Trust me (and the other townies) to see them and pinpoint them out. My reads have been bad, but aren't necessarily horrible. If Andrew is town, hopefully he won't do scummy things and we can lynch someone else.
For the mean time. We aren't going to lynch Andrew immediately. I don't want to say this conversation is over because I am not going to say who can control a conversation, but I am not really interested in taking up more space than we already have hashing this out when we both obviously already know each other's positions and neither of us are likely to change our mind.
That's fine. At least this discussion has allowed for data points to be created. A lot has come from ADK's reactions, as well as Andrew's.
You have people talking sides on this, which may or may not help figure out alignments in the future.
What else would you like to talk about?
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You (and others) refuse to believe or even consider that scumslips exist. They aren't always egregious, but I believe they absolutely exist.
I keep getting sucked in. I believe that scumslips exist. I just don't believe that they occur with a greater frequency than town making natural, human mistakes in regard to posting or setup speculation. We have seen too many townies make "scumslips" for them to be universally called "scumslips." They are mistakes made by humans because like you said, we aren't perfect.
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What else would you like to talk about?
Right now I am interested in people who didn't take a side, but just sat back and watched....
But that will have to wait, bedtime for me.
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I think that, given Andrews relative newbiness, it's likely for him, as Town, to assume there is 3 Mafia. That's what I believed to be the most likely thing purely based on the precedent set by the majority of past RMM games.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell." Except he didn't assume anything. Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it. Read those words out loud. Listen to how they feel.
The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game. That's what that statement forces you to understand. The power of words are real. They are not wind, as Eevee would say.
But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.
^yes.
Is there really anything else I or yuma or anyone can say about this? Ash has been tunneling me using the same "scumslip" argument for what seems like a few pages now. I don't see this going anywhere. If anyone wants me to clarify anything I'd be more than happy to accommodate. But other than that, I feel like I and others have explained this situation clearly enough.
As far as third parties go, I wasn't really thinking about it. I'm mostly going on feel, re-reading and seeing what sticks out to me rather than spending a lot of time analyzing setups. I've only played a couple games and in one of them I was only alive for a day but that strategy has seemed to work out for me so far. I also had D1 wagons on me in both games if I remember correctly. So I guess people interpret the way I play this game as scummy? Well anyway I'll read up on setups and roles and such some more tomorrow.
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I also had D1 wagons on me in both games if I remember correctly.
On second thought, I don't think I'm remembering correctly.
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So, catching up.
I think ashersky is jumping on newbies making a dumb mistake to push town into mislynches. The "fastest win ever thing" also seems calculated to appeal to people's egos; people like the idea of town winning quickly. It's enough for me to
Vote: ash
I agree with whoever it was that said this was a scummy post. Vote: A Drowned Kernel
Vote: yuma
this was never explained
That was RVS, trying to get discussion going. It didn't work.
Oh and please quote the entire conversation. Going back and trying to find the rest of it or trying to make sense of half of a conversation is really annoying.
You can click on the thing that says "Quote from:..." and it takes you to the post.
Now, my take on the whole thing. Ash, I disagree with you. Ash, you're doing great. We've already got some rock-hard interactions here now. I think it has been going on a little bit long, but oh well.
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Oh and please quote the entire conversation. Going back and trying to find the rest of it or trying to make sense of half of a conversation is really annoying.
You can click on the thing that says "Quote from:..." and it takes you to the post.
Xeiron replaced text with ellipses thus cutting out important information in the beginning of the conversation. I was saying not to do that but rather to quote the entire thing so we don't have to sift through a bunch of posts to try and find the original posts.
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Post Count!
Archetype - 12
yuma - 33
XerxesPraelor - 2
xeiron - 8
faust - 10
Twistedarcher - 15
Witherweaver - 18
shraeye - 5
sudgy - 3
A Drowned Kernel - 15
AndrewisFTTW - 27
Jimmmmm - 8
ashersky - 36
These numbers do not include pre-game.
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Just to let you guys know: I'll be traveling to Portland tomorrow and staying until Sunday. No idea whether or not I'll get Internet access.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Nope, just calling you out on your terrible reasoning.
Is it just terrible terrible? Scum terrible? or simply bad terrible and you're exaggerating?
Well immediately before his post I said "seems pretty unlikely", so his voting me for implying we should maybe lynch yuma doesn't make much sense. If he was saying that we should just automatically give IC status to anyone who has what seems like a verifiable claim without thinking it through and discussing it, well that's a terribly terrible idea.
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Occam's Razor means the most likely thing to be true is probably true.
Ha ha! This sentence is meaningless.
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I think it has to say something about his alignment, either that he absolutely scum or absolutely town.
This sentence seems meaningless too...
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Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.
I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.
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BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.
I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW
I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?
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Soo... a lot happened here.
I do agree that Andrew's post about there being only three scum is scummy. I do also agree that his reaction to being called out is scummy. I do not agree with ash about scumslips in general. There are scumslips, but writing "town" instead of "scum" or using < > instead of [ ] aren't scumslips. Andrew saying there are 3 scum might be one. It is the best lead we have on this D1.
Vote: Andrew
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BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.
I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW
I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?
This is RMM, yuma is far from being an auto-NK. Town almost certainly has some kind of protective role. You claiming does not in any way make you IC. Nor did it make yuma IC. You should not claim unless you think the information you have to share is worth giving scum more information about the setup.
Your post reads townie though.
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Man, this kind of game really escalates quickly.
I don't know how to read the whole scumslip thing. It does seem very suspicious. On the other hand, if everyone but ash has only played 3 scum members in 13 player games, it seems a fair assumption. I feel like someone involved in it is scum, but I'm not sure who yet. I think I'll have to reread..
...okay crazy idea that may have no merit at all. Would it make sense for both Ash and Andrew to be scum and Ash is throwing Andrew under the bus? That could throw a lot of suspicion off of him in the future. Or, Andrew's three-scum comment could have been a real slip and this is how Ash is covering for it. If we end up lynching Andrew, then Ash looks strong town. If we end up not being convinced, then we're less likely to come back to thinking Andrew is scum. Either way, it would protect one of them.
I have another thing that's been bothering me a little. Why do we assume that dayvig is town? I understand that we think it's not scum because it would be too powerful to kill both day and night (I think?). Couldn't it just as easily be the "third faction" that may or may not be around? I was thinking that town doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of flavors. I imagine none of the Aes Sedai would have such an ability. (They're sworn to not initiate violence against other people.) That takes out Nynaeve, Egwene, Elaine, Aviendha, Moiraine, Suan. (Not all of these characters may be in, but most probably are.) Probably not a Warder either. The only person I could think it would be for town is Rand.. maybe someone like Thom. On the other hand, killing someone in the daytime makes sense for Children of the Light.
Anyway, I could be trying to draw too much from the flavors. I don't have an experience with these games so I don't know how important they end up being. But I didn't quite follow why everyone knew it was town right away.
Also, is it a one-shot thing?
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.
False. There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.
There's Frisk's famous original, of course. But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds. I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out. In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.
What was Frisk's, and what does the <b>bolding</b> thing mean?
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Immediately after...
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.
This feels arbitrary. Wouldn't it feel just as likely that Andrew was scum, slipped with the message, and ADK innocently assumed it as fact?
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Alright. I have 5 votes on me so I thought I'd go through them all and explain how they're unfounded and how scum is absolutely on this wagon and wants to get this lynch through. So here we go.
1)
How does Andrew know the number of scum? It's not listed anywhere--I just checked? Scum slip.
vote: andrew
Ash votes me for an apparent "scumslip" which nobody else really seems to agree with, despite a few pages of discussion. Sure people think it's scummy but not a scumslip necessarily (huh?).
2)
I'm totally on board with ash.
Vote: andrew
Shraeye votes for me for what I can only assume (hey look I'm assuming again, conf!scum!) are the same reasons ash are voting me for.
3)
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew [/]
TA votes me for defending myself. I'm curious as to what about my defense is scummy and his response is this:
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
Leaving me absolutely nothing to dispute. How convenient. Someone thinks my posts are scummy but can't quite articulate it besides saying they're "calm" in the original post. My "calm" posts that TA are referring to are a total of two posts. Here they are:
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?
Nobody bothered to answer my setup question for a few pages. This really bothers me because instead of someone (anyone?) coming in and telling me my assumption was technically wrong (despite some other people admitting to making that assumption as well... like TA), everyone decided to debate setups and theory and reading between the lines. Yes I think yuma made a lot of excellent points but I would've much rather defended myself and had people answer my questions for a discussion. As it turned out, nobody was interested in what I had to say, yet they were certainly interested in voting for me.
My second post is the beginning of my realization that ash is actually serious about this whole thing. I'm still blown away by it. Anyway, the point is these two posts apparently are "calm" and thus are scummy according to TA.
4)
I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW
So XP thinks my reaction was scummy. Can you please elaborate on this? What do you mean by self-awareness? You agree with TA that my reactions are scummy, so does that mean you agree that my reactions are "calm" and thus scummy? Or do you agree that you can't quite put your finger on how they're scummy but they are? How am I supposed to react to fit the mold of "town"? Earlier, ash accused ADK of being scummy for "flailing". Ok let me see if I have this right. Being calm is scummy, flailing is scummy, according to Xeiron getting defensive AT ALL is scummy. So somebody please tell me how I'm supposed to respond. I'd appreciate it.
For the record, this is the same thing I was talking about in Star Wars that everyone but yuma ignored. What I pretty much said was instead of saying definitively that something is scummy, say you "think" something is scummy and give an explanation. This is to avoid situations like this, which are situations that scum wants by the way, where everyone jumps on the "scummy reactions" bandwagon. Not all calm reactions are scummy. Not all emotional reactions are scummy. Not all assumptions are scummy. And nobody bothered to compare any of this to how I played Adventure Time or Star Wars. Granted there's not much to go on and I honestly don't know how my play here compares to those games but it seems to me that if you're committed to this game then you should take advantage of all the information you have available and all the information you COULD have available before committing to a vote that could be part of a mislynch.
5)
I do agree that Andrew's post about there being only three scum is scummy. I do also agree that his reaction to being called out is scummy.
Vote: Andrew[/b]
See my reaction to XP's vote above.
My scum reads on this wagon (I'm sure nobody cares) are TA and shraeye but I really don't have much to go on since shraeye hasn't posted since agreeing with ash. So...
vote: TA
Thank you for your time. Is this scummy enough for you guys?
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.
I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Immediately after...
There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.
This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.
This feels arbitrary. Wouldn't it feel just as likely that Andrew was scum, slipped with the message, and ADK innocently assumed it as fact?
I suppose. But ADK saying "which both Town and scum has to worry about" makes me think that ADK is urging both Town and Mafia to hunt after the 3rd party. Maybe I'm making too many conclusions, but I think ADK has a higher chance of flipping scum than Andrew does. I'll Vote:ADK just in case I don't have access over the next couple of days.
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Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.
False. There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.
There's Frisk's famous original, of course. But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds. I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out. In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.
What was Frisk's, and what does the <b>bolding</b> thing mean?
As Mafia in one game, Captain_Frisk said "I have a 0% chance of flipping Town". When you type in QTs, you have to use <> tags instead of [] tags to add inline styles. In one game, Town!Voltgloss used <b></b> instead of in a post. Scum!shraeye said it was a scum slip (Mafia could talk during the day and said that Voltgloss was talking to his partner, which made him use the wrong tag) and Voltgloss got lynched for it.
Frisk really was scum, but like Yuma said the scum slip isn't why he got lynched. Voltgloss's lynch is an excellent example of why scum slips don't really exist, but scum love to push the idea of them.
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So, Andrew, you ask me to specify what about your reply I found scummy. Let me try that.
Your first reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359766#msg359766) after ash calling out your "scumslip" is to say you thought 2 and 3 are the only numbers of scum used. Well, I do not think you actually believed that, for one. And what's more, the post reads like trying to play the slip down.
Next, you are implying that ashersky is drunk (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359841#msg359841), and thus his jugdment is clouded. This is either a joke (and Mafia has been seen joking when they are nervous) or an appeal to emotion. In any case, you are not responding rationally.
Then, more appeal to emotion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359904#msg359904) follows. You are also saying here that ash is either just trying to get reactions or scum, completely ignoring the option that he may actually think you are scum. I think as town you would at least have to admit that your "slip" was scummy.
You go on dismissing ash's case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359956#msg359956) on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359919#msg359919).
After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360085#msg360085), and start bringing up other stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360093#msg360093).
Thanks for encouraging me to reread, Andrew! Makes me more confident in my vote on you.
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I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.
Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.
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Vote Count 1.4:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): ashersky, shraeye, Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust, Archetype (L - 1)
A Drowned Kernel (1): sudgy
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW
Not voting (3): yuma, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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An error in the Pattern! This is the correct vote count.
Vote Count 1.4.2:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (5): ashersky, shraeye, Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust,
A Drowned Kernel (2): sudgy, Archetype
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW
Not voting (3): yuma, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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So, Andrew, you ask me to specify what about your reply I found scummy. Let me try that.
Your first reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359766#msg359766) after ash calling out your "scumslip" is to say you thought 2 and 3 are the only numbers of scum used. Well, I do not think you actually believed that, for one. And what's more, the post reads like trying to play the slip down.
Whether or not you believe me is up to you, I can't argue that. But I didn't say I thought 2 or 3 are the only numbers of scum used. I thought 2 was used for "small" games (about 9 players) and 3 was used for "big" games (about 13 players). I wasn't aware of any other size games but of course you can customize a game of mafia however you would like. I just wasn't thinking in that way because I didn't think it applied here.
Next, you are implying that ashersky is drunk (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359841#msg359841), and thus his jugdment is clouded. This is either a joke (and Mafia has been seen joking when they are nervous) or an appeal to emotion. In any case, you are not responding rationally.
This is indeed a joke because I thought ash's initial post was some sort of joke, simply because I saw it as such a ridiculous argument that I couldn't think of what else it could be. It's amazing how every time I've made a joke people have jumped all over it, even if it's ridiculously obvious. The same thing happened in both Adventure Time and Star Wars so I guess I'm 3 for 3 now. And who says town can't make jokes anyway?
Then, more appeal to emotion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359904#msg359904) follows. You are also saying here that ash is either just trying to get reactions or scum, completely ignoring the option that he may actually think you are scum. I think as town you would at least have to admit that your "slip" was scummy.
Appealing to emotion? I was still trying to figure out what ash could possibly see in my post other than an assumption on the number of scum in 13 player games. What does emotion have to do with this? I don't think what I said was scummy and some other people here feel the same way. Even some of the people voting for me feel the same way.
You go on dismissing ash's case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359956#msg359956) on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359919#msg359919).
Well yeah, eventually I realized that ash was serious and I responded to that argument accordingly. Am I supposed to not try to make his argument sound weak when I think it is?
After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360085#msg360085), and start bringing up other stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360093#msg360093).
I can't force anyone to do anything so why would I try? All I said was this isn't going anywhere so why spend pages talking about it? Pretty much all that was being discussed was scumslips, if they actually exist, and whether or not this applies here. If someone was discussing the case on me with something other than "SCUMSLIP OMG!" I would've been happy to have discussed it. You conveniently don't include this post here:
I guess shraeye thinks I'm scum too? At least he voted for me. What do you think shraeye?
in which I ask to hear shraeye's opinions about why he thinks I'm scum. Is this trying forcing an end to the discussion? I'm actually PROMOTING discussion on my case; the complete opposite of what you accuse me of doing.
As far as bringing up something else, am I suddenly not allowed to post anything but rebuttals? And it's not like just because I post something else the previous conversation stops anyway, so I don't know what your argument is here.
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I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.
Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.
Combing a post? Do you mean re-reading a post before you post it? What's wrong with that? I've obviously been misunderstood multiple times this game so I'd like to avoid that as much as possible by saying exactly what I mean and not anything else.
I don't need people to tell me how to react. If I say something like "how am I supposed to react?" it's more of a rhetorical question that I'm asking because I don't think there is one correct way to react to anything. Everybody has different ways of expressing themselves and just because you don't like the way I do it doesn't mean it's a scumtell.
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Andrew, what other mafia games have you been in? I would like to reread them.
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Adventure Time (only D1) and Star Wars.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
That was a miscount. He has 5 votes for him.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
That was a miscount. He has 5 votes for him.
Oh. Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
THIS IS L-1
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
I disagree with problems with putting you at L-1, and your last paragraph. Putting you at L-1 doesn't suddenly stop everybody from doing anything. You aren't going to get lynched now (barring crazy role shenanigans) (and if you do, I will fight your hammerer to the death).
Also, I think some people had better reasons for voting you. Not the scumslip, but people saying that the way you reacted was scummy. I also think my reason for voting you was solid enough.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
I disagree with problems with putting you at L-1, and your last paragraph. Putting you at L-1 doesn't suddenly stop everybody from doing anything. You aren't going to get lynched now (barring crazy role shenanigans) (and if you do, I will fight your hammerer to the death).
Also, I think some people had better reasons for voting you. Not the scumslip, but people saying that the way you reacted was scummy. I also think my reason for voting you was solid enough.
Yeah everyone except ash and shraeye are voting for me because of the way I've reacted, but nobody can explain how the way I reacted was scummy. Not one person has stopped and thought that maybe this is the way I react when I've got a rapidly building wagon on me.
What's the point of putting me at L-1 if you're just going to fight the hammer? I don't get it.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
But your tone hasn't changed from when it was 1-2 people voting for you to the current 5 (or now 6). So I'm not sure your point on this holds. And I'm not sure about the comment about nobody backing up their claim. Ash seemed pretty convinced from the beginning, Faust explained in depth what he thought, Sudgy explained his reasoning. I'm not sure about the other three. Shraeye I think just agreed with Ashe's argument. Scrolling back, Xerxes gave a reason, too. Maybe you don't think their reasons are very good, but it's certainly not the case that no one felt the need to back up their claim.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
I disagree with problems with putting you at L-1, and your last paragraph. Putting you at L-1 doesn't suddenly stop everybody from doing anything. You aren't going to get lynched now (barring crazy role shenanigans) (and if you do, I will fight your hammerer to the death).
Also, I think some people had better reasons for voting you. Not the scumslip, but people saying that the way you reacted was scummy. I also think my reason for voting you was solid enough.
Yeah everyone except ash and shraeye are voting for me because of the way I've reacted, but nobody can explain how the way I reacted was scummy. Not one person has stopped and thought that maybe this is the way I react when I've got a rapidly building wagon on me.
What's the point of putting me at L-1 if you're just going to fight the hammer? I don't get it.
I (at the current moment) think you are scum, so I vote for you. I don't want the day to end now, but that doesn't make me not want to vote you. If it was only a day left to deadline I would be fine with a hammer.
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Someone unvote dammit! I am panic posting from work on my buddies phone. I am a dayvig, if I am compulsive... which I may or may Not be... And I don't shoot before day is over guess what happens to me? so somebody unvote because if I am compulsive then a derp hammer will for sure kill a townie today.... Me. And if I am not compulsive well then hopefully everyone is aware that in a game like this there may be reasons to nit rush into putting someone to l1 when we still have a chunck of time left.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
I disagree with problems with putting you at L-1, and your last paragraph. Putting you at L-1 doesn't suddenly stop everybody from doing anything. You aren't going to get lynched now (barring crazy role shenanigans) (and if you do, I will fight your hammerer to the death).
Also, I think some people had better reasons for voting you. Not the scumslip, but people saying that the way you reacted was scummy. I also think my reason for voting you was solid enough.
Yeah everyone except ash and shraeye are voting for me because of the way I've reacted, but nobody can explain how the way I reacted was scummy. Not one person has stopped and thought that maybe this is the way I react when I've got a rapidly building wagon on me.
What's the point of putting me at L-1 if you're just going to fight the hammer? I don't get it.
I (at the current moment) think you are scum, so I vote for you. I don't want the day to end now, but that doesn't make me not want to vote you. If it was only a day left to deadline I would be fine with a hammer.
If you don't want the day to end then why make it so that one more vote ends the day? Whatever, it really doesn't matter.
PPE: Oh yeah and there's the whole yuma thing.
I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
But your tone hasn't changed from when it was 1-2 people voting for you to the current 5 (or now 6). So I'm not sure your point on this holds. And I'm not sure about the comment about nobody backing up their claim. Ash seemed pretty convinced from the beginning, Faust explained in depth what he thought, Sudgy explained his reasoning. I'm not sure about the other three. Shraeye I think just agreed with Ashe's argument. Scrolling back, Xerxes gave a reason, too. Maybe you don't think their reasons are very good, but it's certainly not the case that no one felt the need to back up their claim.
With the exception of ash and shraeye, nobody has backed up their reasoning well including faust, who just posted links to me saying things and called them scummy, and sudgy, who saw how I reacted when 5 people voted for me, then saw how I reacted when 1 person voted for me, and called it a day. I'll go back and look at XP's reason.
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I strongly disagree with lynch Andrew right now. From my perspective I know that it's perfectly possible that the mistake he made is coming from town, because I'm town and I made it. I also disagree that his reaction is scummy, to me it seems completely consistent with how he reacted in Adventure Time. I'm not saying I'm sure he's town but to me he doesn't seem any scummier than the people who are pushing his lynch. PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
PPE: 1
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BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.
I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW
I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?
Ok here it is. He just agrees with TA and he never answered my question about "self-awareness". Not really sure what that's supposed to mean.
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I didn't think about yuma. I'll Unvote, but still think of me voting you.
I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I also didn't have 5 people voting me for a supposed "scumslip" in Adventure Time so I don't know how you can compare my reactions like that.
But the responses started way before you had five votes for you... it started back when you only had one or two votes.
Yeah if someone votes for me and accuses me of something that isn't true, I'm going to respond to it. I'm talking about the tone of the responses, which of course are going to be different if one person is voting for me rather than five.
TA, shraeye, sudgy scum team (if there are actually 3 scum).
I don't understand putting me at L-1 without giving faust a chance to respond, or a chance for yuma to give his thoughts about today, or ADK, Jim, shraeye, or xeiron for that matter. This is why I'm calling sudgy out.
What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
But your tone hasn't changed from when it was 1-2 people voting for you to the current 5 (or now 6). So I'm not sure your point on this holds. And I'm not sure about the comment about nobody backing up their claim. Ash seemed pretty convinced from the beginning, Faust explained in depth what he thought, Sudgy explained his reasoning. I'm not sure about the other three. Shraeye I think just agreed with Ashe's argument. Scrolling back, Xerxes gave a reason, too. Maybe you don't think their reasons are very good, but it's certainly not the case that no one felt the need to back up their claim.
With the exception of ash and shraeye, nobody has backed up their reasoning well including faust, who just posted links to me saying things and called them scummy, and sudgy, who saw how I reacted when 5 people voted for me, then saw how I reacted when 1 person voted for me, and called it a day. I'll go back and look at XP's reason.
I didn't see how you reacted when 5 people voted for you, I looked at the whole game.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
So what is the play difference that influenced your vote so much?
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
So what is the play difference that influenced your vote so much?
You seem to be more frantic here and are making larger posts.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
So what is the play difference that influenced your vote so much?
You seem to be more frantic here and are making larger posts.
The other thing to consider is that Adventure Time was my first game and I was alive for a day. I didn't have much experience with long posts of reads and all that, I was just going off of instinct (which actually turned out to be pretty good!). Again, I also didn't have 5 people voting for me so there was no need for long posts defending myself. This is my third game and I still have a lot to learn but I feel like I'm getting a little better.
If I was posting 100% how you guys expect a townie to post (whatever that is), I wouldn't really be in this position. I take the blame for some of this but there is scum on this wagon and some jumpy town that's excited to lynch somebody. I still don't see much to it.
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Alright, so on a reread the people who look scummy to me in all of this:
shraeye- says "I agree with ash!", votes, then leaves. Super sheepy.
sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
witherweaver- seems like he's hedging and trying to play both sides. I know that I'm flipping town and I'm leaning toward Andrew doing so to, so when/if we get lynched scum doesn't want to have been completely adamant on our wagons.
This isn't to say that I have super good town reads an everyone else, but these looked the scummiest to me.
PPE: 1
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Alright, so on a reread the people who look scummy to me in all of this:
shraeye- says "I agree with ash!", votes, then leaves. Super sheepy.
sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
witherweaver- seems like he's hedging and trying to play both sides. I know that I'm flipping town and I'm leaning toward Andrew doing so to, so when/if we get lynched scum doesn't want to have been completely adamant on our wagons.
This isn't to say that I have super good town reads an everyone else, but these looked the scummiest to me.
PPE: 1
I've been trying to figure out what side to take on all of it, which is why I've been going back and forth with Andrew. I'm leaning towards scum against Andrew, but honestly I didn't want to be the one to decide the lynch.
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Someone unvote dammit! I am panic posting from work on my buddies phone. I am a dayvig, if I am compulsive... which I may or may Not be... And I don't shoot before day is over guess what happens to me? so somebody unvote because if I am compulsive then a derp hammer will for sure kill a townie today.... Me. And if I am not compulsive well then hopefully everyone is aware that in a game like this there may be reasons to nit rush into putting someone to l1 when we still have a chunck of time left.
Pretty sure you aren't compulsive, as I believe town!yuma tells us that upfront. And I'm still pretty sure you are town!yuma based on your original claim.
We had this issue in whatever game Voltaire decided to kill me on Day 1 in which he used that role terribly wrong. You invented that game, so you know the dangers of hiding a town, compulsive killing role. (And now I don't remember if he was scum or town, but you get my point.)
If you are a compulsive D1 dayvig, you'd be asking for more input on who to kill and why. You will make your own decision, but you do know the importance of including the town in the decision, if only to force people to make statements about it for post-flip purposes.
So I think you really, really want to save Andrew for some reason, as you've been on this warpath since discussion about him has started, and I'm wondering if you're going to spill why anytime soon.
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Also, is it a one-shot thing?
It might be or it might not be. I am not divulging that info at the moment.
I could concievably flavor claim to see if it helps you narrow me down as more likely to be town to correlate with my flavor. I really don't know anything about the flavor so there might be a reason not to--or a game mechanic where I wouldn't want to as well... So I'll claim it if I see a pressing enough reason.
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So, Andrew, you ask me to specify what about your reply I found scummy. Let me try that.
Your first reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359766#msg359766) after ash calling out your "scumslip" is to say you thought 2 and 3 are the only numbers of scum used. Well, I do not think you actually believed that, for one. And what's more, the post reads like trying to play the slip down.
Next, you are implying that ashersky is drunk (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359841#msg359841), and thus his jugdment is clouded. This is either a joke (and Mafia has been seen joking when they are nervous) or an appeal to emotion. In any case, you are not responding rationally.
Then, more appeal to emotion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359904#msg359904) follows. You are also saying here that ash is either just trying to get reactions or scum, completely ignoring the option that he may actually think you are scum. I think as town you would at least have to admit that your "slip" was scummy.
You go on dismissing ash's case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359956#msg359956) on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359919#msg359919).
After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360085#msg360085), and start bringing up other stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360093#msg360093).
Thanks for encouraging me to reread, Andrew! Makes me more confident in my vote on you.
Faust, you want to know why I find you scummy? It is this type of posts where you go in to a reread with a bias and pluck stuff from the reread and twist it and construe it as scummy while at the same time ignoring how it could be interpreted as either null or even as townie and ignoring posts in between those that contradict some things that you say.
you did this exactly in Diffusion of Power as town, on scum (PPS I think? or TA wrongly? I can't remember)... so maybe it is the correct way to go based off that sampling, but I really don't think it is and is something that constantly gets my flags raised up about you.
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Caught up on the latest pages, and I am left with a scummy feeling of both AndrewisFTTW and A Drowned Kernel. Actually slightly more on ADK, but the interesting part is the chance of them being scum together.
They share some assumptions, and they are defending each other. Something to remember if one flips scum.
As for actually lynching someone, I am not ready to vote for any of them without rereading once more. It will have to be another day, as i am quite busy right now.
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
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Pretty sure you aren't compulsive, as I believe town!yuma tells us that upfront. And I'm still pretty sure you are town!yuma based on your original claim.
Hey look it is Mr don't make assumptions making an assumption!
We had this issue in whatever game Voltaire decided to kill me on Day 1 in which he used that role terribly wrong. You invented that game, so you know the dangers of hiding a town, compulsive killing role. (And now I don't remember if he was scum or town, but you get my point.)
If you are a compulsive D1 dayvig, you'd be asking for more input on who to kill and why. You will make your own decision, but you do know the importance of including the town in the decision, if only to force people to make statements about it for post-flip purposes.
So I think you really, really want to save Andrew for some reason, as you've been on this warpath since discussion about him has started, and I'm wondering if you're going to spill why anytime soon.
Look more assumptions! Stop making assumptions about me! You don't know me! That's my purse!
I don't really want to save Andrew other than I think the lone reason that has been given for lynching him is completely and totally unfounded. I haven't really looked at his posts recently responding to a large wagon, so maybe I will change my mind about him. So I have nothing to spill except that I think lynching someone off a scumslip that could just as easily be a mistake made by town is not pro-town at all when we still have days left and potentially other players who are or will become more obviously scummy.
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
Good point, although it's RMM, so I'm not sure how much claiming helps or hurts here.
Maybe a flavor claim to start?
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
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Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
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Pretty sure you aren't compulsive, as I believe town!yuma tells us that upfront. And I'm still pretty sure you are town!yuma based on your original claim.
Hey look it is Mr don't make assumptions making an assumption!
We had this issue in whatever game Voltaire decided to kill me on Day 1 in which he used that role terribly wrong. You invented that game, so you know the dangers of hiding a town, compulsive killing role. (And now I don't remember if he was scum or town, but you get my point.)
If you are a compulsive D1 dayvig, you'd be asking for more input on who to kill and why. You will make your own decision, but you do know the importance of including the town in the decision, if only to force people to make statements about it for post-flip purposes.
So I think you really, really want to save Andrew for some reason, as you've been on this warpath since discussion about him has started, and I'm wondering if you're going to spill why anytime soon.
Look more assumptions! Stop making assumptions about me! You don't know me! That's my purse!
I don't really want to save Andrew other than I think the lone reason that has been given for lynching him is completely and totally unfounded. I haven't really looked at his posts recently responding to a large wagon, so maybe I will change my mind about him. So I have nothing to spill except that I think lynching someone off a scumslip that could just as easily be a mistake made by town is not pro-town at all when we still have days left and potentially other players who are or will become more obviously scummy.
This didn't PPE for me when I posted.
If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff. Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.
Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know. Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.
Would you rather I not assume you are town? And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.
Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?
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Would you rather I not assume you are town?
Ooh, I don't like this from ash. He said it a lot to me in Chocolate Factory.
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Would you rather I not assume you are town?
Ooh, I don't like this from ash. He said it a lot to me in Chocolate Factory.
Way to take it out of context, given yuma and I have been arguing about "assumptions" all game.
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.
Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?
Any thoughts of your own to share?
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Caught up on the latest pages, and I am left with a scummy feeling of both AndrewisFTTW and A Drowned Kernel. Actually slightly more on ADK, but the interesting part is the chance of them being scum together.
They share some assumptions, and they are defending each other. Something to remember if one flips scum.
As for actually lynching someone, I am not ready to vote for any of them without rereading once more. It will have to be another day, as i am quite busy right now.
Where have I ever defended ADK?
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
You could take out a lurker, if you are compulsive and don't have strong reads. shraeye, either X, etc.
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.
Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?
Any thoughts of your own to share?
I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.
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I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.
Thanks.
I'm worried about shraeye now. 3 posts, sheeped me on the scumslip, disappeared. Nothing in the VLA thread. Odd.
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Just re-read TA. He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example. He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though. Not sure why.
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If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff. Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.
Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know. Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.
Would you rather I not assume you are town? And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.
Like what I did with voltgloss when I was SK in Wibbely Wobbely and the <b> thing? The thing is that there I reacted the way I would have reacted if I were town... to not believe scumslips. Same here, they aren't enough for me.
And I am happy to see that you are considering Andrew as town, at least in the context of me being scum, which isn't ideal... but at least shows you are thinking things through, which isn't what it looked like you were doing yesterday... maybe you were, but it wasn't showing. It just looked like "LYNCH ANDREW HE IS SCUMMM ROAR!"
I will read Andrew's posts. Again don't we have like a week left in this game? Give people a chance to do their stuff here guys...
And my assumption thing wasn't about me being town. It was you assuming about how I would play in a certain situation. And it is exactly the same, and I agree that you should be doing it, that is my point. Your assumption was based off how I played in the past, some "ephemeral past" as you put it where you have had past experiences with me. Andrews' assumption was about the past as well... the past 13 player games he has played and seen before in his short time of f.ds. See what I am getting at here?
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I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.
Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?
Why are we just waiting on me and Andrew and it really shouldn't be obvious right now 4 days into the game that Andrew is going to be the lynch. It just shouldn't. I don't want the game to stall, but if/when I am going to shoot today I want to have as much time and data points to make that decision, so if the game stalls... I will probably shoot someone who is part of the stalling...
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?
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If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff. Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.
Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know. Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.
Would you rather I not assume you are town? And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.
Like what I did with voltgloss when I was SK in Wibbely Wobbely and the <b> thing? The thing is that there I reacted the way I would have reacted if I were town... to not believe scumslips. Same here, they aren't enough for me.
And I am happy to see that you are considering Andrew as town, at least in the context of me being scum, which isn't ideal... but at least shows you are thinking things through, which isn't what it looked like you were doing yesterday... maybe you were, but it wasn't showing. It just looked like "LYNCH ANDREW HE IS SCUMMM ROAR!"
I will read Andrew's posts. Again don't we have like a week left in this game? Give people a chance to do their stuff here guys...
And my assumption thing wasn't about me being town. It was you assuming about how I would play in a certain situation. And it is exactly the same, and I agree that you should be doing it, that is my point. Your assumption was based off how I played in the past, some "ephemeral past" as you put it where you have had past experiences with me. Andrews' assumption was about the past as well... the past 13 player games he has played and seen before in his short time of f.ds. See what I am getting at here?
I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).
"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town." If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you. But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.
Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly. He's had pages and pages to clarify his statement, but he hasn't. I want you to see that. Read all of his posts. He never clarifies or changes his stance. He said at the very beginning "THERE ARE THREE SCUM" and has not waivered, clarified, adjusted, or qualified his statement.
Maybe he feels like qualifying his statement now would look like he's admitting to the slip. Dunno. I just know his "defense" to this the entire time has been to call the case "ridiculous" and not actually answer anything. Sound familiar? (Hint: me in Super Mario)
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I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).
"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town." If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you. But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.
Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly.
Well then... we have it. I am not willing to lynch Andrew for communicating badly. This is a communication game. But as I learned in my communication classes it is a two way street. The speaker and the hearer. Both parties are responsible. The one for being clear (obviously didn't happen) the other for interpreting, which I think I am doing correctly and I think you are not. Obviously we won't know until we lynch him, but at this point I am not willing to do that based off a single instance of something that could very easily be a communication failure.
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I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).
"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town." If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you. But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.
Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly.
Well then... we have it. I am not willing to lynch Andrew for communicating badly. This is a communication game. But as I learned in my communication classes it is a two way street. The speaker and the hearer. Both parties are responsible. The one for being clear (obviously didn't happen) the other for interpreting, which I think I am doing correctly and I think you are not. Obviously we won't know until we lynch him, but at this point I am not willing to do that based off a single instance of something that could very easily be a communication failure.
I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid. If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it. But...
If this is a misunderstanding, why has Andrew refused to clarify? I'm willing to lynch him based on my understanding as the hearer, because I think my understanding is correct at this point. He has done nothing to try and change my understanding, he's just calling my understanding ridiculous without actually addressing it.
I think there are generally two ways scum react to cases made on them. One is to make very long, detailed posts refuting the case point by point. Town does this too. The other is to react loudly with incredulity. I've famously done this with great success in past games (Mario) and unsuccessfully (Choc Factory). Town does not do this very often, although I and others have on occasion.
I think Andrew's been reacting loudly with incredulity, but without any response at all to the actual case. He has responded directly to others' cases, but not to the actual scumsilp.
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
Like this. What is this? "So...lots of folks voting me, but I'm not going to say anything, I just hope you all re-read and stop voting." What?
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Here's Andrew's first post following my vote. The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.
He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion. The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well. Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think. The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.
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It is a retractment, earlier I was making an assumption and I realized that it was unfounded. My statement about their "probably" being a third party is based mostly on flavor and the fact that RMM games are supposed to be chaotic, so again, maybe I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't be.
As a comparison, look at ADK after I had also called him out for a scum/thirdparty slip. An actual explanation for his assumption, which had included "probably" in it.
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sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew. Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.
Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.
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I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid. If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it. But...
No. That is not how you have felt. Before you just wanted to lynch him from the scumslip... going as so far as to suggest me dayvigging him based solely off the scumslip alone. Nothing doing with the reactions. In fact you only recently started actually analyzing the reaction (first post I see is #267 where you say you have pointed out his "other scummy statements" but I didn't see you point out scumminess. I just saw you point out how he was wrong, and having a different opinion of you isn't scummy. All of the posts before that are either just saying he is scum or arguing with him about why you are right... not analyzing what he is saying as scummy or townie.
This really makes me wonder ash... You are taking a different approach now? Why? Why isn't your original reason good enough now despite you using it before? Is it because you are trying to adapt your case to what you think I would want the case to be?
If this is a misunderstanding, why has Andrew refused to clarify? I'm willing to lynch him based on my understanding as the hearer, because I think my understanding is correct at this point. He has done nothing to try and change my understanding, he's just calling my understanding ridiculous without actually addressing it.
Because the way you approached it man!!!! Look at what you did. You didn't say, "I think Andrew said something scummy... Andrew why did you say that, what made you say what you did?"
No instead you reacted extremely hostile and aggressively. Calling him out for a scumslip, immediately voting, automatically assuming the worst and not giving him a chance to explain himself. Sure, if Andrew is a completely rational human being maybe he can stay calm in the face of this ridiculous--from his point of view--accusation and try and explain it. He did very well to me when I asked him some questions in a rational manner w/o making up my mind before he made it. So yeah, I don't expect him to fully address it to you because you jumped all over him and people don't react ideally when you do that.
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I think there are generally two ways scum react to cases made on them. One is to make very long, detailed posts refuting the case point by point. Town does this too. The other is to react loudly with incredulity. I've famously done this with great success in past games (Mario) and unsuccessfully (Choc Factory). Town does not do this very often, although I and others have on occasion.
I think Andrew's been reacting loudly with incredulity, but without any response at all to the actual case. He has responded directly to others' cases, but not to the actual scumsilp.
And why can't town react with pure incredulity I ask? It isn't like we haven't seen this before.
Ok, I am reading Andrew's posts:
- 208 - disbelief and confusion, given the context understandable
- 221 - joke again, disbelief
- 224 - frustration
- 226 - frustration again
- 230 - looks like a post that perfectly explains the situation, despite a slightly (and understandable hostile tone). He uses the word assume here. For me that corresponds to "I thought" or "probably" or whatever
- 232 - asking for clarification
- 239 - answering one of my questions that I put forward w/o previous bias
- 258 - critiquing some of your failed logic
- 259 - says we should stop talking about "theory and power of assumptions" not about whether or not he is scum or the scum slip
- 260 - asks for shraeye to clarify
- 268 - another clarification post saying "that I have seen"
- 296 - agrees with a post I made
- 297 - second guesses himself
- 312 - analyzes the votes on him
- 319 - responding to faust's case on him, which I don't get much out of
- 320 - reacting to xerxes
- 322 - responding to sudgy's question
- 325 - comparing this game to past ones for sudgy
- 328 - L1 talk saying the day should keep going, I agree fully here
- 330 - mentions how everyone is voting him for how he reacted (incredulous and in disbelief, the exact emotions I would be feeling if I were in his shoes. Actually those are the emotions I am feeling right now)
- 334 - more about the above
- 336 - analyzes Xerxes' vote
- 338 asks sudgy a question
- 340 - really key phrase here: "If I was posting 100% how you guys expect a townie to post (whatever that is), I wouldn't really be in this position. I take the blame for some of this..."
- 357 - about not defending ADK
- 364 - not claiming, the right move I think
So yeah, I dont' think Andrew is town based off his reactions. I don't see any merit in the scumslip (or at the least very, very little). I won't be votign for him nor will I be dayvigging him unless something happens. I am not convinced he is town, but I do not believe him to be the correct lynch today.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Here's Andrew's first post following my vote. The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.
He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion. The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well. Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think. The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.
UGH! Strike 1!
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sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew. Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.
Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.
Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.
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I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid. If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it. But...
No. That is not how you have felt. Before you just wanted to lynch him from the scumslip... going as so far as to suggest me dayvigging him based solely off the scumslip alone. Nothing doing with the reactions. In fact you only recently started actually analyzing the reaction (first post I see is #267 where you say you have pointed out his "other scummy statements" but I didn't see you point out scumminess. I just saw you point out how he was wrong, and having a different opinion of you isn't scummy. All of the posts before that are either just saying he is scum or arguing with him about why you are right... not analyzing what he is saying as scummy or townie.
This really makes me wonder ash... You are taking a different approach now? Why? Why isn't your original reason good enough now despite you using it before? Is it because you are trying to adapt your case to what you think I would want the case to be?
I've expanded to include analysis because you weren't listening to me before. If you aren't going to trust my instincts, and you want to see more "proof," then I have to put in the work to provide it, right? You want a case, I'll give you a case.
So yeah, I dont' think Andrew is town based off his reactions. I don't see any merit in the scumslip (or at the least very, very little). I won't be votign for him nor will I be dayvigging him unless something happens. I am not convinced he is town, but I do not believe him to be the correct lynch today.
And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions." If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum. But you won't vote for him. Why?
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Here's Andrew's first post following my vote. The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.
He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion. The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well. Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think. The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.
UGH! Strike 1!
What does "Strike 1" mean? Three strikes and you unilaterally kill someone? Talk about anti-town, if that's what you are thinking.
And no one else has strikes?
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Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly. He's had pages and pages to clarify his statement, but he hasn't. I want you to see that. Read all of his posts. He never clarifies or changes his stance. He said at the very beginning "THERE ARE THREE SCUM" and has not waivered, clarified, adjusted, or qualified his statement.
Not exactly sure what you're saying here but I guess it's that I've never said I didn't know for sure that there are 3 scum? I've pulled this up for. Let me know if this is not what you're talking about.
So he thinks I'm scum because I assumed there's three scum in this game and that apparently is a scumslip? Maybe because that's ridiculous.
Wow. In my limited experience with mafia I have never seen or heard of a game with anything other than 2 or 3 mafia. Thus I assumed that's just how mafia is played and still nobody has told me otherwise.
I've been in Adventure Time and Star Wars which had 3 and 2 scum respectively. This is game 3 for me. I've checked out a lot of other games on this forum and they've all had either 2 or 3 scum. Obviously mafia games and customizable but for some reason I thought this wasn't any different given the size of the game.
Not the same at all actually. Because ALL previous big games I have seen have had 3 scum made it a pretty safe assumption to me that this one would have 3 also.
I'm sure there's more but I'm typing on a phone and I'm kinda busy right now.
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And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions." If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum. But you won't vote for him. Why?
Because I as a human, made a mistake and accidentally subbed in the word "town" for "scum."
It should have said "I don't think Andrew is scum based off his reactions."
Or are you going to say that is a scumslip...
And no I am not going to shoot anyone for a number of strikes although sometimes i am very tempted... This role has been a constant battle of self control.... which I am winning, but only very slightly at times. But mostly what I meant is that I am not interested in having a conversation--which will turn into a battle--with you over semantics. That isn't why I play the game and isn't something that I think will lead to anything useful.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
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exactly what Andrew said above. For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum. I am probably not going to write up anything else on Andrew unless he does something that changes my opinion. I will probably continue to say he shouldn't be the lynch because I don't really anticpate making the most vocal of you change your minds, but even if he is going to be the lynch I want to figure out how to use my role best... So even if you are insistant on lynching him (bad idea!) give me time to figure out what I want to do please!
Witherweaver, please unvote... Please! I don't want a derphammer completely and totally turning this day into the worst day1 ever!
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And after all this, you say "I don't think Andrew is town based off his reactions." If you don't think he's town, you think he's possibly scum. But you won't vote for him. Why?
Because I as a human, made a mistake and accidentally subbed in the word "town" for "scum."
It should have said "I don't think Andrew is scum based off his reactions."
Or are you going to say that is a scumslip...
And no I am not going to shoot anyone for a number of strikes although sometimes i am very tempted... This role has been a constant battle of self control.... which I am winning, but only very slightly at times. But mostly what I meant is that I am not interested in having a conversation--which will turn into a battle--with you over semantics. That isn't why I play the game and isn't something that I think will lead to anything useful.
Man, I don't know how you expected me (or anyone) to know that you made a mistake in that line. So sorry for not assuming it was an error and instead just taking it at face value.
If you are not interested in having a conversation over semantics, what would you like to talk about? This is a game played by posting words in a forum online. It's all about semantics, and only semantics. (Note, I looked up the definition to be sure. Semantics is "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning." That pretty much sums up forum mafia right there.)
So, if concerning ourselves with the meaning of folks' logic and linguistics isn't useful, what would you suggest we discuss?
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For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum.
I have zero problem with this, obviously. I'm also reading and re-reading, looking for Andrew's partners.
TA's worth a re-read; I'd like to know if anyone else sees a significant difference between beginning of game TA and more recent TA.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
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yuma, can you use your dayvig during twilight? Maybe it's worth checking. That way, if there is a derphammer, you might still get your shot off.
In the meantime, unvote. You know I'm not afraid to re-vote whenever it's time.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
But it seems like there's no danger if you have one vote against you. I would have just said why I thought what I did. His first post doesn't sound at all flummoxed to me.
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sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew. Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.
Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.
Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.
Two reasons:
1. Actually voting for someone is a lot more than saying you will
2. L-1 is a scary place to be and we could figure out more from it
As for someone else hammering, I would only expect it from scum at this point (which is why it probably wouldn't happen) and it would be great if we could figure it out. Yuma possibly dying was what made me reconsider.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
I think the thought process if I was a dayvig who had to shoot today...
1) Do I have a scum read I'm confident enough in to shoot them as a N1 vig? If yes, shoot them D1. If no...
2) Is there consensus on a target from the majority of players? How do I feel about those who agree? Then...
3) Is there a lurker or two who seem suspiciously absent from important conversations, or just laid down a vote and disappeared?
I think the answers to 2/3 would lead me to a good target. For me, that's probably shraeye right now. Even though he's agreed with me, and I like that, the way he agreed and left is odd to me. Maybe he has a good excuse, and he'll be back and contributing, and I'd change my mind (which is why it's good to take time on this). He's such a strong town player that we don't want to lose him, but man he's hard to catch as scum, too.
I'd say sudgy and the two Xs are on the scummy end of the Andrew wagon, and are probably in the "fine to lynch, so fine for yuma to shoot" category, so if I was looking for a suspicious bus (or scum helping along a mislynch), it'd be those two.
I don't have a lot of firm town reads. Just a few scummy and a lot of null.
I don't envy your position, yuma. It's a hard decision, and sucks if you get it wrong.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
But it seems like there's no danger if you have one vote against you. I would have just said why I thought what I did. His first post doesn't sound at all flummoxed to me.
That's you. I'm not you. This is my first post after ash's accusation.
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Like I've already said a few times, I'm under the impression that ash is making some sort of joke or something. I was pretty confused. And again, nobody bothered to answer my question but rather called this and my next post scummy and jumped on the wagon.
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?
Is there a point to this post?
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?
Is there a point to this post?
Yes. I'm trying to tell you that it's better to try than to just expect people to change their minds for no reason. Also that, even if you think there is no "good argument" for your lynch, you could be lynched anyway, and if you don't want to be lynched, you'd be better served posting than just waiting for people to read.
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I have skimmed but not read fully but here's a few thoughts:
- kinda get town reads for sludgy and whomever jumped onto the wagon 5th (ww I believe). If they are scum I don't think this is a wagon you really want -- if Andrew is scum you are getting him close to lynch which is really risky, but if Andrew is town, if he flips you look super scummy for jumping on pretty carefree. Basically I don't think mafia is likely to jump on regardless of Andrews alignment. So two reads there, if there's scum on wagon I would guess its among ash/shraeye.
- jimmmm - remember in diffusion d1, when pingpongsam (as scum) was calling us as a scum team simply for pushing him early day1? He played a very "me-centric" game there, as in he was calling scum based only on who was pushing HIS wagon and interactions with HIM and nothing else. Does Andrew calling the scum team all on his wagon remind you of that? Cause it does to me. It's the approach of "scum want to be pushing through MY mislynch over everyone else" which is pretty irrational as town. The fact that Andrew is saying all scum are focused on lynching him is ringing alarm bells.
If we move away from Andrew I actually would prefer to look at people who didn't jump on the wagon (barring Yuma). I think it's a wagon scum wanted to avoid. Regardless lets not lynch Andrew now we have time, and please give me time to settle into my new place and up to speed before we lynch that would be super cool.
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I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.
You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?
Is there a point to this post?
Yes. I'm trying to tell you that it's better to try than to just expect people to change their minds for no reason. Also that, even if you think there is no "good argument" for your lynch, you could be lynched anyway, and if you don't want to be lynched, you'd be better served posting than just waiting for people to read.
I've been posting long posts for a while now and everyone save yuma seems to be ignoring them. I'm encouraging people to re-read these posts.
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I will Andrew later sorry. Shorter posts draw the attention more than longer posts for me when on mobile. Rest assured I will reread
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For now I am moving on.... to try and find who I actually think is scum.
I have zero problem with this, obviously. I'm also reading and re-reading, looking for Andrew's partners.
TA's worth a re-read; I'd like to know if anyone else sees a significant difference between beginning of game TA and more recent TA.
Please post these differences so I know you aren't just echoing what Yuma said before. You say I'm worth a reread but make no indication on whether or not these supposed differences are scummy or towny.
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Just re-read TA. He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example. He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though. Not sure why.
I think you got it backwards TA, I did the re-read first.
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I don't know if it means you are scummy or towny now. You started off feeling "off" to me, and normal TA is super town TA, so "off" TA is, well, not.
But your recent spate of posts (before this session) felt more like normal towny TA.
So you were having a bad day, or in a bad mood, or just ate some bad chicken, maybe. I mean, do you have a reason why your posts felt different?
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I don't know which ones you are talking about, but no I am pretty sure I won't be able to come up with a reason. Maybe I was busy with blitz? Or did this start after d1 of blitz. But seriously I doubt ill come up with a reason
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Just re-read TA. He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example. He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though. Not sure why.
I think you got it backwards TA, I did the re-read first.
Oops I missed this sorry, I saw yumas post (or maybe I just thought this one was by Yuma) and then the one you had on this page. Sorry about that
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I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk
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So, my scum reads are Andrew (obviously), then shraeye (I agree with what people are saying about him), then to a lesser extent ADK. He hasn't done anything else bad, and at the point that I voted him there wasn't much to go off of.
I have a town read on ash. I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town. I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners. I'm not seeing that here.
And, obviously, town read on yuma.
Everybody else I'm pretty much null on.
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I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk
That makes sense. I've had a lot of TA lately, so I guess it's just fresh on my mind. I'm specifically referring to when we mislynched you on D1 of Hangman and then your D1 of ZM17 as IC as the games to which I'm comparing you.
You'll recall I had a mistaken scum read on you in Hangman based on one post, but was able to pivot from that to Teproc. Did you mostly phone post in ZM17?
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?
I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.
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After Andrew asked people to clarify, I wrote up a clarification post, but he ignored it. When he said he'd respond to my reasons, he instead quoted my vote and proceeded to complain that I didn't respond there to a question he asked after I made that post.
I'm perfectly fine with my vote where it is.
In other business, slight scum read on ash for trying to control yuma's big and for suggesting it goes toward me.
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Apparently missed a lot; catching up now.
Ash, I think you need to slow down, especially in regards to ADK. You say [to Andrew]:
Yeah, i think that Andrew's is more egregious, being the first to say this. ADK also qualified his statement in a way that makes it seem more like an assumption he realizes he's making, instead of a fact that he is stating. I'm fine keeping my vote on Andrew.
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I have already said that this data point isn't enough to lynch someone off! If more assembles then maybe. But this alone isn't worth it at all. I don't make lynch decisions of isolated instances that may or may not be scummy.
Why not? I think it's enough to lynch off of. Why should we be very afraid to lynch without "overwhelming evidence", especially on day1. That stuff is hard to come by.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
Sorry if I'm dredging overdone conversations again, but this is my take exactly. There was a huge fruitless discussion about assumptions that are/aren't legal and crap like that. But this statement does NOT read like an assumption to me; not at all. Throw in the responses to this. They sounded like quick "ohcrapohcrap" back-pedals
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yeah, that topic needs to be moved past. More discussion between ash/yuma overwhelmed me. Let's not go there right now.
I disagree with sudgy's take (#298) on these interactions. I'm not sure how useful they are. I guess Twisted chimed in about reactions, Archetype gave his take...But it seems that outside of Ash/yuma/ADK/andrew, other names stayed away. Maybe this will be more useful on future days, but I don't think it's any use today, unfortunately. Unless we up and lynch Andrew. Which probably still is good.
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Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.
I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.
Could you elaborate on Archetype? Things seem pretty null in my eyes right now.
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BTW, Occam's razor means the simplest answer is more likely to be true.
I agree with TA that the "scumslip" doesn't mean something but that the reaction seems scummy. To me, it sounds like too much self-awareness for town. vote: andrewFTTW
I'm worried that yuma will just be the auto-nk, so I'm thinking about claiming so you'll have an kinda-IC tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it?
I was gonna say, wait! don't claim! But faust beat me to that punch. There's a LOT of crazy things that can happen at night, especially in RMM games. the more we keep scum in the dark, the more they are really taking a risk to target an "obvious kill" if one exists.
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Alright. I have 5 votes on me so I thought I'd go through them all and explain how they're unfounded and how scum is absolutely on this wagon and wants to get this lynch through. So here we go.
What I was the most excited for was the bolded portion in this post. But it's actually missing. You talked about hte points, and then at the end picked out the two scummiest people. EVEN if we're wrong about you (still not sure), there's no guarantee that scum actually are on this wagon. Have any of us done something manifestly scummy in our votes on you that you can point out and explain? THAT would be really interesting information.
This post has the look of "these guys are trying to lynch me; since I'm super good town, some of them HAAAAAVVVVEE to be scum". But that assumption has proven false in many-a-game. If you want to be helpful to town, could you say what makes TA a contender for scum? Do you think it's possible that scum are actually the people agreeing with you? (you'd be surprised how often scum defend townies)
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Shraeye's back. Towny input so far.
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unvote
Thoughts in a less post-by-post fasion:
You go on dismissing ash's case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359956#msg359956) on you, trying to make it sound weaker than it is. But now suddenly you seem to think it's possible that ash just finds you scummy, which you earlier said was ridiculous (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359919#msg359919).
After seeing that you cannot convince ash, you try to force an end on the discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360085#msg360085), and start bringing up other stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360093#msg360093).
Thanks for encouraging me to reread, Andrew! Makes me more confident in my vote on you.
These last points seem super stretched. For example, he starts talking about xeiron/Jimmm defensiveness. Which is a great discussion ready to be had. I'm super-bummed that people are focusing on meta-conversations about assumptions when there's other stuff to talk about too. This post makes me slightly worried about faust. Actually, I think that qualifies as a scumread. So there.
PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
Not in the least. Please explain why you have townreads on so many people off the wagon, enough to justify saying PoE means there pretty much is scum on the wagon. That is xeiron, Jimmm, Archetype, yuma, witherweaver, andrew. Are they all towny?
- jimmmm - remember in diffusion d1, when pingpongsam (as scum) was calling us as a scum team simply for pushing him early day1? He played a very "me-centric" game there, as in he was calling scum based only on who was pushing HIS wagon and interactions with HIM and nothing else. Does Andrew calling the scum team all on his wagon remind you of that? Cause it does to me. It's the approach of "scum want to be pushing through MY mislynch over everyone else" which is pretty irrational as town. The fact that Andrew is saying all scum are focused on lynching him is ringing alarm bells.
I kinda agree. This is my point when I brought up that Andrew analyzed his wagon from a "scum HAVE to be pushing this" perspective. Andrew, if you're town, start focusing on other things. Faust is definitely wrong when he says that's scummy.
sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew. Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.
Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.
Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.
Yeah, I also don't understand the "L-1 but no hammer!" idea. Even after I saw sudgy's explanation. I guess L-1 could scare somebody into reacting more...honestly?...vigorously? I don't vote for somebody unless I'm happy to lynch them. Ever. And I mean lynch there and on the spot. I see no reason to extend days once my mind has been made up. Sure sure sure, "more interactions could come up"...OR, more shit could happen that just clutters the thread, distracts people's attention, and dilutes my reads. Not every interaction is useful.
I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.
Thanks.
I'm worried about shraeye now. 3 posts, sheeped me on the scumslip, disappeared. Nothing in the VLA thread. Odd.
VERY CONCERNING. I don't understand how you get scumreads from shraeye on this, especially if you've seen me as scum as often as you have. I regularly disappear for 1-2 days at a time. When I "sheep" it's because I was about to make the same point. I rarely take anybody's opinion into consideration other than my own; because I'm a stubborn, arrogant butt-face. This aspect of my meta is also known. Instead of repeating the same post, I say "agree" meaning "This is literally something I was about to say. I will just quote it to show I agree."
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Shraeye's back. Towny input so far.
Do I get your validation even after that last one? ;)
So my reads so far (roughly from scummy->less scummy, my memory is fickle):
scummy--Andrew, faust, ash, xeiron
null--ADK, sudgy (leaning bad), witherweaver (leaning bad), Xerxes (leaning good), jimmmm (leaning good)
towny (roughly in from towniest-->less towny)--Twisted, yuma, archetype
formatting sucks, whatever. I just read stuff for an hour, so I forgive me.
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Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.
I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.
Could you elaborate on Archetype? Things seem pretty null in my eyes right now.
I can't actually - I just re-read him and can't remember what it was that gave me that vibe.
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shraeye - is ash's being worried about you enough to take him from "doing a good job" to scummy?
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So, my scum reads are Andrew (obviously), then shraeye (I agree with what people are saying about him), then to a lesser extent ADK. He hasn't done anything else bad, and at the point that I voted him there wasn't much to go off of.
I have a town read on ash. I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town. I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners. I'm not seeing that here.
And, obviously, town read on yuma.
Everybody else I'm pretty much null on.
These are pretty easy reads to make -- scummy on people who have been noted as scummy, towny on ash and then a large paragraph that says really vague things without getting into details. Saying that scum ash is usually blatantly obvious about being scum is just untrue and the fact that you're using this to justify a scum read on someone seems fake (ash is a much better scum player than for you to say "he's not screaming scum d1 therefore large town read".
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I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk
That makes sense. I've had a lot of TA lately, so I guess it's just fresh on my mind. I'm specifically referring to when we mislynched you on D1 of Hangman and then your D1 of ZM17 as IC as the games to which I'm comparing you.
You'll recall I had a mistaken scum read on you in Hangman based on one post, but was able to pivot from that to Teproc. Did you mostly phone post in ZM17?
About half and half but I'm much more rapid fire on blitz usually.
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shraeye - is ash's being worried about you enough to take him from "doing a good job" to scummy?
yeah, my reads on ash can be volatile, especially on day1. He has a pretty consistent meta, so anything that is out of the ordinary for him is something that I give a lot more weight than an off-comment from somebody else.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?
I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.
So I'm talking about your initial reaction, and I'm saying you were taking a position of incredulousness (not that your response was incredulous):
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
This was right after Ash voted for you*, before there was a case against you. To me this comes off as overly defensive, because there hasn't been much of a strong position taken against you. Just Ash saying that what you said was a slip. I feel like if you just would have said "I simply thought that with 13 players, three scum was the setup. Every other game I've seen has been that way" then a lot of suspicion of you would never have been aroused. But the tone of this message is a lot more defensive than that, which makes me think you have something to defend.
And your defense since then has been "no one can explain why they think I'm scum," but it feels to me like people have been explaining and that you're just hanging onto the "nobody has a reason" defense.
I mean,maybe this is just tone with everything and it's coincidental here. This is my first game so I'm new at this reading thing, but this is the only thing I've been able to form an opinion about so far.
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*Actually, going back again, I see Shraeye had jumped on too. When I initially made my vote I thought your response was directly after Ash, so you only had one vote against you. Now I see you had two votes.. that does change my perspective a little bit.
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After Andrew asked people to clarify, I wrote up a clarification post, but he ignored it. When he said he'd respond to my reasons, he instead quoted my vote and proceeded to complain that I didn't respond there to a question he asked after I made that post.
I'm perfectly fine with my vote where it is.
In other business, slight scum read on ash for trying to control yuma's big and for suggesting it goes toward me.
Are you talking about this?
I don't think being defensive or calm is scummy, just that carefully combing apost to be as towny as possible is, and that's what it looked like to me.
Wanting people to tell you how to react is the exact same reaction I had as scum, and I think it's less likely to be the reaction of a villager.
Combing a post? Do you mean re-reading a post before you post it? What's wrong with that? I've obviously been misunderstood multiple times this game so I'd like to avoid that as much as possible by saying exactly what I mean and not anything else.
I don't need people to tell me how to react. If I say something like "how am I supposed to react?" it's more of a rhetorical question that I'm asking because I don't think there is one correct way to react to anything. Everybody has different ways of expressing themselves and just because you don't like the way I do it doesn't mean it's a scumtell.
Because I didn't get any response after this, and me responding to something is not ignoring it. I'm going to keep looking to see if I missed something else.
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Someone unvote dammit! I am panic posting from work on my buddies phone. I am a dayvig, if I am compulsive... which I may or may Not be... And I don't shoot before day is over guess what happens to me? so somebody unvote because if I am compulsive then a derp hammer will for sure kill a townie today.... Me. And if I am not compulsive well then hopefully everyone is aware that in a game like this there may be reasons to nit rush into putting someone to l1 when we still have a chunck of time left.
This panicky attitude... strange. Maybe means yuma is compulsive? Because I do not see the merit in stretching out D1. Better someone is put to L-1 when we have still time left than someone is put to L-1 when only 45 minutes remain, and there is no time for them to claim or for us to find an alternative lynch.
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I strongly disagree with lynch Andrew right now. From my perspective I know that it's perfectly possible that the mistake he made is coming from town, because I'm town and I made it. I also disagree that his reaction is scummy, to me it seems completely consistent with how he reacted in Adventure Time. I'm not saying I'm sure he's town but to me he doesn't seem any scummier than the people who are pushing his lynch. PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
PPE: 1
So... why is it you "strongly" disagree with lynching Andrew? You are basically saying he is a null read for you, what's so wrong with lynching null reads D1?
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Alright. I have 5 votes on me so I thought I'd go through them all and explain how they're unfounded and how scum is absolutely on this wagon and wants to get this lynch through. So here we go.
What I was the most excited for was the bolded portion in this post. But it's actually missing. You talked about hte points, and then at the end picked out the two scummiest people. EVEN if we're wrong about you (still not sure), there's no guarantee that scum actually are on this wagon. Have any of us done something manifestly scummy in our votes on you that you can point out and explain? THAT would be really interesting information.
This post has the look of "these guys are trying to lynch me; since I'm super good town, some of them HAAAAAVVVVEE to be scum". But that assumption has proven false in many-a-game. If you want to be helpful to town, could you say what makes TA a contender for scum? Do you think it's possible that scum are actually the people agreeing with you? (you'd be surprised how often scum defend townies)
I made that post after sudgy put me at L-1 and I was so frustrated and somehow convinced I was going to get lynched that I posted that. Looking back and actually thinking things through for a minute, the points that have been made about scum being off the wagon make sense. I'm going to re-read and answer the bolded questions, although since then TA has posted a lot so we'll see if my opinion has changed.
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Faust, you want to know why I find you scummy? It is this type of posts where you go in to a reread with a bias and pluck stuff from the reread and twist it and construe it as scummy while at the same time ignoring how it could be interpreted as either null or even as townie and ignoring posts in between those that contradict some things that you say.
you did this exactly in Diffusion of Power as town, on scum (PPS I think? or TA wrongly? I can't remember)... so maybe it is the correct way to go based off that sampling, but I really don't think it is and is something that constantly gets my flags raised up about you.
Well, I guess there are different types of rereads for me. There is the reread where I feel like someone is scum, and try to convince others that he is scummy, so I look for scumminess. This is what I did in DoP, because PoE told me pretty certainly that PPS was scum. It is also what I'm doing here, because ultimately, what are the reasons not to lynch Andrew? Has he done anything townie? And my gut says scum, or informative lynch at least.
Sometimes I do rereads coming more from a position where I try to find out the other player's alignment, and yes, these look different. I admit that I stuck to my gut read here. It is D1 after all.
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Nope sorry, I was thinking of a different post. The one you quoted was before sudgy voted me, but I was still frustrated. I'll answer your questions shortly.
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So here's how you do a reread, apparently... you list a whole bunch of stuff that Andrew did, and in the end state you think that means he's probably town. But I see no obvious connection between the things you list and you thinking he is town. So I guess I like my rereads better.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
If I made a mistake like that and got accused for it, I would probably say sorry for my wrong assumptions and for distracting town, and try to convince those who saw that mistake that it wasn't more than a mistake. I wouldn't get all worked up and accuse those players that my mistake lead to falsely thinking I was scum to be drunk and ridiculous.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
Well, I do not have a strong opinion... if you are compulsive, I think killing a lurker is not the worst. But really I think you should just shoot Andrew (after he had a chance to claim obviously) because he seems to be the default lynch. If then you are right and we're wrong, we can make the lynch on a more informed basis.
If you are not compulsive... I don't really think that's actually the case, because then I don't see why you would have claimed.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
If I made a mistake like that and got accused for it, I would probably say sorry for my wrong assumptions and for distracting town, and try to convince those who saw that mistake that it wasn't more than a mistake. I wouldn't get all worked up and accuse those players that my mistake lead to falsely thinking I was scum to be drunk and ridiculous.
Maybe I just react differently to things than you do. And for the record I think ash was a LOT more worked up and distracting for town than I was. I DID try to convince everyone it wasn't more than a mistake and most people still believe me.
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I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.
Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.
That is not an assumption. That is not a guess. That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe. That is a statement of fact. Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.
Sorry if I'm dredging overdone conversations again, but this is my take exactly. There was a huge fruitless discussion about assumptions that are/aren't legal and crap like that. But this statement does NOT read like an assumption to me; not at all. Throw in the responses to this. They sounded like quick "ohcrapohcrap" back-pedals
Agreed.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
I'd like an update on this please. The initial vote was because you thought I was too calm. I've had some pretty frustrated posts since then. How do you feel about those?
All previous 13 player games with only one scum team have had 3 scum. But ash you are arguing over whether the assumption is correct, not if its reasonable. You are the only person who has said it's not. You have at least 4 people saying it is. All 4 of those people can't be scum therefore it's reasonably likely for town to have that assumption, therefore Andrew isn't necessarily scum.
See what I did there? By saying all 4 of those people can't be scum, I assumed a 3 person scum team. Lynch me next!
I don't get how you can have this kind of post right after voting for me. This is probably the most straightforward, to the point argument for me not being scum, certainly better than anything I could post or have posted. So why keep your vote on me after this? What has changed or stayed the same to influence your vote?
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
I find this scummy. Finding a flimsy reason to set someone up for a derphammer.
I (at the current moment) think you are scum, so I vote for you. I don't want the day to end now, but that doesn't make me not want to vote you. If it was only a day left to deadline I would be fine with a hammer.
yuma posts about how he's a dayvig and sudgy uvotes. Arch and maybe someone else jumped on this just like I did by saying there's no logical reason to put anyone at L-1 right now. Even without the yuma dayvig situation, there's no reason for this. If sudgy isn't fine with a hammer TODAY then he shouldn't be putting me at L-1. This might be the scummiest thing I've seen today.
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yuma posts about how he's a dayvig and sudgy uvotes. Arch and maybe someone else jumped on this just like I did by saying there's no logical reason to put anyone at L-1 right now. Even without the yuma dayvig situation, there's no reason for this. If sudgy isn't fine with a hammer TODAY then he shouldn't be putting me at L-1. This might be the scummiest thing I've seen today.
You are very wrong here. Putting someone at L-1 is very different from hammering. We put people at L-1 so they know they should consider claiming. That why L-1 should happen earlier than the very last hours of a day.
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First of all, thank you for posting this.
Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?
I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.
So I'm talking about your initial reaction, and I'm saying you were taking a position of incredulousness (not that your response was incredulous):
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
This was right after Ash voted for you*, before there was a case against you. To me this comes off as overly defensive, because there hasn't been much of a strong position taken against you. Just Ash saying that what you said was a slip. I feel like if you just would have said "I simply thought that with 13 players, three scum was the setup. Every other game I've seen has been that way" then a lot of suspicion of you would never have been aroused. But the tone of this message is a lot more defensive than that, which makes me think you have something to defend.
Yeah maybe I could've phrased it differently but I don't see what's wrong with what I posted. I asked a legitimate question that nobody answered. Maybe if someone answered the question right off the bat there wouldnt've been as huge a debate over there, though I doubt it considering how vehement ash was about the supposed "scumslip". I see it as a two way street. I don't see this post really as defensive, more just surprised that anyone could consider that a scumslip and then "oh... that's not what I meant. Is that assumption wrong?".
And your defense since then has been "no one can explain why they think I'm scum," but it feels to me like people have been explaining and that you're just hanging onto the "nobody has a reason" defense.
So just to clarify, I never said "nobody has a reason", I've been asking people to clarify their reasonings for voting me like you are doing here (which is why I thanked you in the beginning.)
Just going off memory here but let me see... ash and shraeye vote me for the "scumslip", TA votes me for my two first posts being "calm" and is unwilling or unable to clarify beyond that, XP votes me for being "self-aware" and still hasn't clarified that despite me asking at least twice, faust votes me for my reactions being scummy, posts something with a lot of links to what I've said with no real additional information besides calling them all scummy, and fails to respond after I pick it apart, sudgy votes me for my play in Adventure Time, in which the most people voting for me at one time were 2 (I think) and one of them was an RVS holdover, and you vote me for being "overly defensive" which I discussed above. Am I missing anything?
I mean,maybe this is just tone with everything and it's coincidental here. This is my first game so I'm new at this reading thing, but this is the only thing I've been able to form an opinion about so far.
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*Actually, going back again, I see Shraeye had jumped on too. When I initially made my vote I thought your response was directly after Ash, so you only had one vote against you. Now I see you had two votes.. that does change my perspective a little bit.
Part of the reason I've been taking this tone has been my frustration with some people saying I've said or done things that I haven't said or done.
First and foremost is the "scumslip" which has been beat to death already so I'm not even going there anymore. I've also been accused of saying "all big games have 3 scum" when I actually said "all big gamesI have seen have had 3 scum". I've been accused of defending ADK which has not happened anywhere. I've been accused of trying to force an end to conversation when actually I was pushing the conversation on my case forward. And in your post you say that I've been saying "nobody has a reason", which is not at all what I've been saying.
Maybe now you can see why I've having such a hard time here.
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yuma posts about how he's a dayvig and sudgy uvotes. Arch and maybe someone else jumped on this just like I did by saying there's no logical reason to put anyone at L-1 right now. Even without the yuma dayvig situation, there's no reason for this. If sudgy isn't fine with a hammer TODAY then he shouldn't be putting me at L-1. This might be the scummiest thing I've seen today.
You are very wrong here. Putting someone at L-1 is very different from hammering. We put people at L-1 so they know they should consider claiming. That why L-1 should happen earlier than the very last hours of a day.
That's fine but there's still no reason I should be at L-1 today. Do you disagree?
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I disagree. Why do you say there's no reason for you to have been at L-1? You were there. The voters had reasons. That seems like there was reason to put you to L-1. QED.
Now if you're going to say, "I was at L-1, but the reasons weren't legitimate", now that's a whole different box of crackers.
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I didn't know we were getting all literal here. Alright then. There is no good reason as far as I can see for putting me or anyone at L-1 today.
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Part of the reason I've been taking this tone has been my frustration with some people saying I've said or done things that I haven't said or done.
First and foremost is the "scumslip" which has been beat to death already so I'm not even going there anymore. I've also been accused of saying "all big games have 3 scum" when I actually said "all big gamesI have seen have had 3 scum". I've been accused of defending ADK which has not happened anywhere. I've been accused of trying to force an end to conversation when actually I was pushing the conversation on my case forward. And in your post you say that I've been saying "nobody has a reason", which is not at all what I've been saying.
Maybe now you can see why I've having such a hard time here.
Sorry the quote is getting way to big so I have to trim it.
So these are some reasons why I said you've been taking a "nobody has a reason" defense:
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What frustrates me the most about this is how nobody could explain why they felt I was scummy. Everybody just said I was and nobody felt the need to back that up with anything. I guess faust is the exception but really not by much as can be seen my post in response to his.
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Yeah everyone except ash and shraeye are voting for me because of the way I've reacted, but nobody can explain how the way I reacted was scummy. Not one person has stopped and thought that maybe this is the way I react when I've got a rapidly building wagon on me.
Can you please show me which posts you consider incredulous and explain why you think that's what they are?
I've been asking this of everyone all day and nobody has been able to come up with an answer.
So maybe it would be more accurate to call it a "nobody has a valid reason" or "nobody can explain their reason" argument, but to me that's a semantic distinction. I mean, "nobody has a reason" seems the natural conclusion from "nobody can explain their reason".
I'm actually kind of confused on why you're saying that's not your argument. How would you characterize it instead?
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I think there's a big difference between "nobody has a reason" and "nobody can explain their reasoning". Everyone that voted for me has a reason for voting. I just don't think they've elaborated on them enough to be convincing.
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Andrew, we aren't trying to convince you that you're scum.
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I mean, if there exists the potential for us to convince you that you're scum....that sorta means that you're scum.
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shraeye, I'm trying to convince everyone that I'm not scum.
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I think there's a big difference between "nobody has a reason" and "nobody can explain their reasoning". Everyone that voted for me has a reason for voting. I just don't think they've elaborated on them enough to be convincing.
Okay, so I think we're saying the same thing and I just used a less precise phrase. But I'm not sure the difference is as great as you present it.. isn't the purpose of highlighting that people have not sufficiently elaborated on their reason that at least some of these people are simply using their reason as a cover to jump on the wagon, because they are in fact scum and want a mislynch? So they don't have a reason to think you're scum, they only have a reason to want to lynch you.
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PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
Not in the least. Please explain why you have townreads on so many people off the wagon, enough to justify saying PoE means there pretty much is scum on the wagon. That is xeiron, Jimmm, Archetype, yuma, witherweaver, andrew. Are they all towny?
Maybe "has to be" is an exaggeration but I'm currently more suspicious of people on the wagon than off it. There are also people off the wagon, I'm thinking of Archetype and WitherWeaver, who are pushing the wagon without voting for it. But yes, maybe I should be looking at these people as well. Has xerion even posted since this whole mess started?
Someone asked, I think it was shraeye, why I wasn't willing to lynch Andrew if I have a null read on him. I'd rather lynch someone I have a scummy read on than someone I have null read on, that's the whole point.
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I think there's a big difference between "nobody has a reason" and "nobody can explain their reasoning". Everyone that voted for me has a reason for voting. I just don't think they've elaborated on them enough to be convincing.
Okay, so I think we're saying the same thing and I just used a less precise phrase. But I'm not sure the difference is as great as you present it.. isn't the purpose of highlighting that people have not sufficiently elaborated on their reason that at least some of these people are simply using their reason as a cover to jump on the wagon, because they are in fact scum and want a mislynch? So they don't have a reason to think you're scum, they only have a reason to want to lynch you.
Well I don't think that's really a scumtell by itself. It's really easy for a townie to just jump on board so he doesn't have to spend a lot of time thinking things through. Also a lot of people don't see D1 as very important for some reason, thus they don't really care who they lynch whether it be town or scum. I disagree and personally would rather lynch someone that I think is really scummy and whose posts I can point to and discern as something scum would post. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure TA is scum (I still have a vote on him), but I don't see the case on me as having much solid reasoning behind it. Of course, I'm a little biased.
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PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
Not in the least. Please explain why you have townreads on so many people off the wagon, enough to justify saying PoE means there pretty much is scum on the wagon. That is xeiron, Jimmm, Archetype, yuma, witherweaver, andrew. Are they all towny?
Maybe "has to be" is an exaggeration but I'm currently more suspicious of people on the wagon than off it. There are also people off the wagon, I'm thinking of Archetype and WitherWeaver, who are pushing the wagon without voting for it. But yes, maybe I should be looking at these people as well. Has xerion even posted since this whole mess started?
Someone asked, I think it was shraeye, why I wasn't willing to lynch Andrew if I have a null read on him. I'd rather lynch someone I have a scummy read on than someone I have null read on, that's the whole point.
I voted for Andrewis.
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PoE means that their pretty much has to be scum on this wagon, so I'm going to do a reread and try and figure out who it is.
Not in the least. Please explain why you have townreads on so many people off the wagon, enough to justify saying PoE means there pretty much is scum on the wagon. That is xeiron, Jimmm, Archetype, yuma, witherweaver, andrew. Are they all towny?
Maybe "has to be" is an exaggeration but I'm currently more suspicious of people on the wagon than off it. There are also people off the wagon, I'm thinking of Archetype and WitherWeaver, who are pushing the wagon without voting for it. But yes, maybe I should be looking at these people as well. Has xerion even posted since this whole mess started?
Someone asked, I think it was shraeye, why I wasn't willing to lynch Andrew if I have a null read on him. I'd rather lynch someone I have a scummy read on than someone I have null read on, that's the whole point.
I'm not pushing Andrew's wagon. I find his reactions scummy, but the vehement way people (mostly ash) are arguing for his lynch, make me think he may not be scum. But ultimately, I'm null on him. Maybe slight scum at the most. Personally, I'd rather have him Dayvigged to make a more informed lynch today. But only if yuma's power is compulsive, which I'm leaning towards being true based on the way he reacted to Andrew being put to L-1.
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Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
I'd like an update on this please. The initial vote was because you thought I was too calm. I've had some pretty frustrated posts since then. How do you feel about those?
All previous 13 player games with only one scum team have had 3 scum. But ash you are arguing over whether the assumption is correct, not if its reasonable. You are the only person who has said it's not. You have at least 4 people saying it is. All 4 of those people can't be scum therefore it's reasonably likely for town to have that assumption, therefore Andrew isn't necessarily scum.
See what I did there? By saying all 4 of those people can't be scum, I assumed a 3 person scum team. Lynch me next!
I don't get how you can have this kind of post right after voting for me. This is probably the most straightforward, to the point argument for me not being scum, certainly better than anything I could post or have posted. So why keep your vote on me after this? What has changed or stayed the same to influence your vote?
The thing is this isn't an argument for you being town, it's an argument that I don't think you scum slipped. It doesn't mean the post made you town it just means that I don't get anything from the "scum slip"
I am worried that the new stuff I am finding is self-confirming but I agree with shraeye's point that we both simultaneously brought up. Sudgys giving me worries but I think I am comfortable leaving my vote on you for now.
I read most of your posts and they all seem to be you just saying the same thing again (not to minimize them). I am not super secure in my read on you but it's the best I have so far, even though sudgy is giving me caution.
Shraeye is a townier read, simply because I don't remember a game where scum!shraeye hasn't tried to push my mislynch. He is tough for me to read though simply because of his posting style (lots of summary posts and reactions to other things, due to having more of a life than the rest of us). Regardless I don't wanna lynch there today. Beyond Andrew and sudgy I don't have any major scum reads I can think of, I am null on quite a few people (don't really buy the adk argument but don't find anything towny about him either, nothing on jimmm/arch, unsure on ash, towny on Yuma, towny on xerxes due to his claim, null on xeiron and witherweaver, and can't remember who else is in the game)
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From most intensity to least...
Towny:
Myself
Yuma
Shraeye
ashersky
Scummy:
A Drowned Kernel
Xeiron
Sudgy
AndrewFTTW
Null:
Everyone else
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What do you find scummy about xeiron/sudgy? Sorry if you have stated this already
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Caught up on the latest pages, and I am left with a scummy feeling of both AndrewisFTTW and A Drowned Kernel. Actually slightly more on ADK, but the interesting part is the chance of them being scum together.
They share some assumptions, and they are defending each other. Something to remember if one flips scum.
As for actually lynching someone, I am not ready to vote for any of them without rereading once more. It will have to be another day, as i am quite busy right now.
Where have I ever defended ADK?
I was sure you had, but upon rereading I see that he defended you, and not the other way around.
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. Has xerion even posted since this whole mess started?
Not much, and I will not contribute much until after the weekend.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
I think you should should shoot whoever we would lynch. That way, it is more like as town can doubblelynch, whitch is good.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
I think you should should shoot whoever we would lynch. That way, it is more like as town can doubblelynch, whitch is good.
I can't believe I didn't think of this, I agree. You definitely should, although if you disagree with the lynch vehemently we can't make you.
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I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
I think you should should shoot whoever we would lynch. That way, it is more like as town can doubblelynch, whitch is good.
I can't believe I didn't think of this, I agree. You definitely should, although if you disagree with the lynch vehemently we can't make you.
If it turns out we're wrong about Andrewis and he's town, we would get that information, right? That could shed some light on who is scum.
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If Andrew is town, who do you think is scummiest on wagon, ww?
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If Andrew is town, who do you think is scummiest on wagon, ww?
Ash. My first instinct was that one of the two was scum. I'm not really so convinced on there being a slip, it's only Andrewis' reaction to the accusation that I find untrustworthy.
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Vote Count 1.5:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (4): Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver
A Drowned Kernel (1): Archetype
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW
Witherweaver (1): yuma
Not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, shraeye, ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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Everybody's been freaking out about my L-1. The fact that you freaked out proves my point that there are more reasons to put someone to L-1 other than to lynch them. If someone did end up lynching you, I would have argued for his lynch because that is anti-town to do. L-1 isn't lynching, hammering is. I unvoted because I didn't think it might kill a townie as well if someone hammered (instead of just Andrew).
Here are my reasons for your vote:
1. I think you overreacted (and are still overreacting) to the votes.
2. Your play is different than in Adventure Time (I think meta arguments are some of the biggest arguments out there).
3. Your play reminds me of mine as SK in MXXXII (Dynasty Warriors).
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I overreacted based on what? Based on the meta that accumulated over 2 1/2 games? Again, I don't think you can compare my reaction in Adventure Time to this but in the end, we an sit here and argue about what constitutes overreation forever and it'll get us nowhere. If that's what you think I did then so be it.
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Sudgy please prove points #2 and #3
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I overreacted based on what? Based on the meta that accumulated over 2 1/2 games? Again, I don't think you can compare my reaction in Adventure Time to this but in the end, we an sit here and argue about what constitutes overreation forever and it'll get us nowhere. If that's what you think I did then so be it.
You overreacted for any player is what I was saying.
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Oh, wait, when you said you were only there for the first day in Adventure Time I thought that meant you got lynched. That puts a wrench in things...
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I was rereading myself in MXXXII, and while I wasn't making long posts, I was getting really frustrated. I actually don't agree with my last post I made there now (where I claimed). If you want to reread me, it's simple enough. I got voted for acting like myself, then I reacted too strongly and got lynched for it. If I hadn't reacted as strongly, I might not have been lynched. Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0;all)'s the link to the game if you want it. I think this quote applies here:
Sudgy, there's no such thing as catching someone for the wrong reasons, although believing you have been caught for the wrong reasons is a classic scum tell.
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What do you find scummy about xeiron/sudgy? Sorry if you have stated this already
Xeiron was when he was acting defensive about saying Jimmmmm was getting defensive. Sudgy was for the L-1 thing. Neither of them are huge scum reads. None of my scum reads really are.
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I was rereading myself in MXXXII, and while I wasn't making long posts, I was getting really frustrated. I actually don't agree with my last post I made there now (where I claimed). If you want to reread me, it's simple enough. I got voted for acting like myself, then I reacted too strongly and got lynched for it. If I hadn't reacted as strongly, I might not have been lynched. Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0;all)'s the link to the game if you want it. I think this quote applies here:
Sudgy, there's no such thing as catching someone for the wrong reasons, although believing you have been caught for the wrong reasons is a classic scum tell.
I was having this exact thought.
Andrew is pissed that we've "caught him for the wrong reason."
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I was rereading myself in MXXXII, and while I wasn't making long posts, I was getting really frustrated. I actually don't agree with my last post I made there now (where I claimed). If you want to reread me, it's simple enough. I got voted for acting like myself, then I reacted too strongly and got lynched for it. If I hadn't reacted as strongly, I might not have been lynched. Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0;all)'s the link to the game if you want it. I think this quote applies here:
Sudgy, there's no such thing as catching someone for the wrong reasons, although believing you have been caught for the wrong reasons is a classic scum tell.
I was having this exact thought.
Andrew is pissed that we've "caught him for the wrong reason."
You guys haven't caught anything so no, that's not why I'm frustrated.
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I was rereading myself in MXXXII, and while I wasn't making long posts, I was getting really frustrated. I actually don't agree with my last post I made there now (where I claimed). If you want to reread me, it's simple enough. I got voted for acting like myself, then I reacted too strongly and got lynched for it. If I hadn't reacted as strongly, I might not have been lynched. Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0;all)'s the link to the game if you want it. I think this quote applies here:
Sudgy, there's no such thing as catching someone for the wrong reasons, although believing you have been caught for the wrong reasons is a classic scum tell.
I was having this exact thought.
Andrew is pissed that we've "caught him for the wrong reason."
Then if you believe that, why did you unvote? I don't understand removing the pressure when you were the one so gung-ho about him slipping up and being guilty.
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Right now I have a very similar feeling to this game as Toy Story*. For those of you not around this is basically what went down...
faust accused sudgy of doing something scummy. Based off that sole post he received a bunch of votes from people who thought he was scummy and then other people pilled on because his "reactions to pressure" were scummy. Sound familiar?
I maintained that faust was a bad lynch throughout all of this, saying he was being voted on for a reason that someone shoudln't be voted on. I then, like a complete moron, gave up on town and hammered faust despite my read on him because I saw no reason to prolong the inevitable.
So to all of you who are calling out to me to Dayvig Andrew (despite my previously stating there was no way I am going to do this) can rest assured that I learned my lesson in Toy Story and I will not be shooting Andrew.
*The comparison isn't perfect. One situation was a scum read based off something faust did and said, here it is a supposed scum slip. So actually I think the faust reason was better than the one we have here, but my feeling of being the lone voice of reason feels the same.
**Also this game reminds me a lot of Arch's game where town lynched Voltgloss for his "slip" but of course there I was a SK, so the feeling isn't exactly the same. But again I feel like the sole voice of reason.
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At this point I want to shoot WW.
I would like people to discuss whether or not WW should claim.
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Right now I have a very similar feeling to this game as Toy Story*. For those of you not around this is basically what went down...
faust accused sudgy of doing something scummy. Based off that sole post he received a bunch of votes from people who thought he was scummy and then other people pilled on because his "reactions to pressure" were scummy. Sound familiar?
I maintained that faust was a bad lynch throughout all of this, saying he was being voted on for a reason that someone shoudln't be voted on. I then, like a complete moron, gave up on town and hammered faust despite my read on him because I saw no reason to prolong the inevitable.
So to all of you who are calling out to me to Dayvig Andrew (despite my previously stating there was no way I am going to do this) can rest assured that I learned my lesson in Toy Story and I will not be shooting Andrew.
*The comparison isn't perfect. One situation was a scum read based off something faust did and said, here it is a supposed scum slip. So actually I think the faust reason was better than the one we have here, but my feeling of being the lone voice of reason feels the same.
**Also this game reminds me a lot of Arch's game where town lynched Voltgloss for his "slip" but of course there I was a SK, so the feeling isn't exactly the same. But again I feel like the sole voice of reason.
And this game also reminds me of Dynasty Warriors, where I was accused for something stupid, then reacted strongly to it, then got lynched for it.
At this point I want to shoot WW.
I would like people to discuss whether or not WW should claim.
Why WanderingWinder Witherweaver?
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At this point I want to shoot WW.
I would like people to discuss whether or not WW should claim.
I like this.
Is there a claim that changes your mind? If not, no need to claim. If so...why? It's RMM, everyone has roles. Maybe he claims strong or weak, or says if he's okay being vigged relative to how he sees his role?
I don't want anyone to be able to just say "cop!" and skate by.
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please note I am not saying WW should claim, just that maybe we should discuss it. I am not sure yet if I am going to shoot him, just that I want to and I am not sure about the merits of claiming or not claiming in regard to dayvigs....
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I regularly disappear for 1-2 days at a time.
I am just going to jump in here for quick suggestion. Perhaps use the VLA page if you know in advance that you are going to disappear. Doing that will alleviate the suspicion that some people will automatically have about you not being around. If you don't use the VLA we don't know where you are? If you do, then we do. Obviously this only works if you know in advance, which I don't know if that was the case here or not. The VLA is there to clear up precisely this sort of confusion.
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Someone unvote dammit! I am panic posting from work on my buddies phone. I am a dayvig, if I am compulsive... which I may or may Not be... And I don't shoot before day is over guess what happens to me? so somebody unvote because if I am compulsive then a derp hammer will for sure kill a townie today.... Me. And if I am not compulsive well then hopefully everyone is aware that in a game like this there may be reasons to nit rush into putting someone to l1 when we still have a chunck of time left.
This panicky attitude... strange. Maybe means yuma is compulsive? Because I do not see the merit in stretching out D1. Better someone is put to L-1 when we have still time left than someone is put to L-1 when only 45 minutes remain, and there is no time for them to claim or for us to find an alternative lynch.
Regardless there IS MERIT when someone has a day power and needs more time to figure out how to use it properly. I can only think of one faction that woulnd't want me to use it properly...
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...
So here's how you do a reread, apparently... you list a whole bunch of stuff that Andrew did, and in the end state you think that means he's probably town. But I see no obvious connection between the things you list and you thinking he is town. So I guess I like my rereads better.
...
I list what he did because a bunch of people requested I go look at his reactions to suspicion. I list what he did and found none of it blatantly or even somewhat scummy in the sense that people were saying. Really all of it was rather null... exactly how I would expect anyone to react to a situation where they were being called out for a stupid "scumslip"
I say he is town because ashersky kept saying that I had to take a stance on him, that I MUST be able to either decide if he is town or scum based off this stuff. So I decided that he is town, but really none of those posts made me think he is certainly townie just that he wasn't the certain scum people were making him out to be.
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Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
How would you respond if someone came up to you and accused you of making a mistake that you thought was totally innocent? Would you be overly defensive? He starts out surprised and then becomes incredulous and yes very, defensive once it picks up steam! I just read all of his posts and they look exactly like someone who was completely flummoxed by everything that everyone aroudn him was saying because it was based off a ridiculous premise and someone who is frustrated because no one except for me apparently is listening to him at all!
GAH!
vote: witherweaver
If I made a mistake like that and got accused for it, I would probably say sorry for my wrong assumptions and for distracting town, and try to convince those who saw that mistake that it wasn't more than a mistake. I wouldn't get all worked up and accuse those players that my mistake lead to falsely thinking I was scum to be drunk and ridiculous.
Really? You wouldn't do something really crazy like make a fake claim and then retract that claim?
Cause I would never do that. Must mean that you were scum in DWII. People react different in different situations. Just because you are apparently Mr. Joe Cool doesn't mean that Andrew is scum because he isn't.
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please note I am not saying WW should claim, just that maybe we should discuss it. I am not sure yet if I am going to shoot him, just that I want to and I am not sure about the merits of claiming or not claiming in regard to dayvigs....
I think if the person being shot at is pretty sure that the person threatening them is a Dayvig, they should treat it as being at L-1 and asked to claim.
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So I'd obviously just claim my actual role, and I don't really have any way of knowing whether it's a powerful one or not.
I also don't know the significance of being at L-1 and being asked to claim. How does that influence the decision? Because if it's a mislynch then you lose an important ability?
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I also don't know the significance of being at L-1 and being asked to claim. How does that influence the decision? Because if it's a mislynch then you lose an important ability?
It does influence the decision. I am not going to tell you what to claim to get out of being shot, but it does have an influence. But there are certainly roles that would make me find you much townier or much scummier and it would be good to know that info before shooting or lynching.
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At this point I want to shoot WW.
I would like people to discuss whether or not WW should claim.
No. Not until you're at the "I am definitely shooting ww phase".
It sounds like you are at the "I am considering shooting ww phase" at which he should not claim.
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Yuma I will trust you much more once you have shot, right now I don't trust you enough to dictate claiming.
It's totally possible you are scum planning on claiming like d3 compulsive vig, hoping to wreck enough havoc by then and get claims out and then going down d3 and letting you team take it from there. Not likely but possible.
You are probably IC ish, but you are not IC. I do not trust you enough yet to say "I want to shoot ww - ww claim. Once your claim is verified yes, not until them.
I do not mean to be like doubting your claim, but I think that path has the potential to lead to multiple extra claims which we should be wary of as Yuma is not a full IC.
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So I am compiling a list of what everyone has said about Andrew's reaction as that seems to be the focus now as no one is really saying that they are lynching him solely for the "slip" despite being the main catalyst for most people voting him. I have an idea of what I am going to find here, but I want to put it out there before I jump to a conclusion... I have removed myself, Andrew and ADK as we aren't voting or intending to vote him.
For reference slip occurs here: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359693#msg359693) at post 187.
1. Archetype - says response is scummy, doesn't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360134#msg360134); finds reactions scummy, no elaboration (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360813#msg360813)
3. XerxesPraelor - Andrew too "self-aware (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360211#msg360211); says that Andrew wanted to know how to react and carefully combing posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360312#msg360312)
4. xeiron - undefined scummy feeling on andrew (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360539#msg360539)
5. faust - says reaction to being called out is scummy, doesn't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360215#msg360215); elaborates, but really I think goes in with an attitude of thinking he is scum and twists and manipulates posts to make them scummy, specifically saying he is "not responding rationally, appeals to emotion, make the case sound weaker than it is, and forces an end to the discussion" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360310#msg360310); says how Andrew should have reacted if town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360739#msg360739)
6. Twistedarcher - calling it too calm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359693#msg359693); can't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359959#msg359959); posts are saying hte same things over and over again (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360822#msg360822);
7. Witherweaver - finally chimes in with an opinion and says that he went back and that Andrew was overly defensive from the beginning (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360611#msg360611); answering Andrew's questions, basically saying "but it feels to me like people have been explaining and that you're just hanging onto the "nobody has a reason" defense." which I think hasn't been true through out as I have outlined many people who just said "andrew is reacting scummy" left it at that and then only answered when pressed or didn't answer at all; [url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360796#msg360796]further answers to questions saying "So maybe it would be more accurate to call it a "nobody has a valid reason" or "nobody can explain their reason" argument" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360716#msg360716)
8. shraeye - found andrew's reaction to thinking scum must be on his wagon scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360690#msg360690) This is actually one area that I do agree with!
9. sudgy - says he is fighting a lynch more here than in Adventure time (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360387#msg360387); says he overreacted, played different than in AdTime; similar play to DWI (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360876#msg360876)
12. Jimmmmm - as far as I can tell no specific talk about reactions
13. ashersky - doesn't like his reaction because he never tried to clarify... something I believe I have shown to be false (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360573#msg360573) a few posts after this I won't reference, but basically saying that Andrew never used the magic words that ashersky was looking for that apparently would have stopped him from being a scum read?
So what do i get from all of this, some interesting stuff....
1. andrew's reactions are being called all sorts of things: overthetop, incredulous, fake, frustrated, emotional, too calm, reactionary, selfaware, not "how I would have done it" etc, etc.
2. There is a legitimate case for Andrew getting frustrated. Nearly all of the early votes were accompanied with little to no explanation just... "he is acting scummy." This I think explains the aggressive, reactionary and frustrating posts that he provides
3. which then are interpreted as him scrambling or being scummy for being frusrated because people aren't fully answering his questions.
4. I do think that for the most part at this point people have answered his questions, but are continuing to harp on him for things that simply aren't true thus compounding the frustrations for him.
really for me, what I see here is a lynch mob. And someone trying to face down that lynch mob as best he can and getting extremely frustrated in the process. Frustration isn't a scumtell. People say it is. But it isn't. It is a losing tell. Andrew thinks he is going to lose this argument and he probably is going to (he might not lose the game, but no one wants to be lynched day1 in any game, let alone a cool RMM one) so yeah... he is going to react poorly to this. I don't buy the comparison to DWI... we lynched you sudgy because the reason wasn't poor. It was solid. Your reaction to it had very little to do with it ultimately...
I really don't expect this post to have a great effect.
It left me with scum reads on WW, faust, sudgy and Archetype. I consistently have scum reads on those last 3, so those are tempered a bit. Possibly scum reads on TA and Jimmmm, but not nearly as much.
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You are probably IC ish, but you are not IC. I do not trust you enough yet to say "I want to shoot ww - ww claim. Once your claim is verified yes, not until them.
I do not mean to be like doubting your claim, but I think that path has the potential to lead to multiple extra claims which we should be wary of as Yuma is not a full IC.
I am not trying to dictate claiming, this is why I asked town to discuss it before anything happened or before a claim was requested.... I don't know what the best course of action is.
But I feel the best course of action is that the person I anticipate shooting should be the one to request a chance to claim, just like if they were at L-1 with intent to hammer (I think arch said that?)
But right now I have not stated intent to shoot WW, just that I currently am leaning that way.
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Yeah that's totally cool. Do you get where I'm coming from though? I am not tryin to discredit you I just want to be careful that you don't somehow get like 3 claims on the off chance you actually are scum.
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So I am compiling a list of what everyone has said about Andrew's reaction as that seems to be the focus now as no one is really saying that they are lynching him solely for the "slip" despite being the main catalyst for most people voting him. I have an idea of what I am going to find here, but I want to put it out there before I jump to a conclusion... I have removed myself, Andrew and ADK as we aren't voting or intending to vote him.
For reference slip occurs here: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359693#msg359693) at post 187.
1. Archetype - says response is scummy, doesn't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360134#msg360134); finds reactions scummy, no elaboration (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360813#msg360813)
3. XerxesPraelor - Andrew too "self-aware (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360211#msg360211); says that Andrew wanted to know how to react and carefully combing posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360312#msg360312)
4. xeiron - undefined scummy feeling on andrew (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360539#msg360539)
5. faust - says reaction to being called out is scummy, doesn't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360215#msg360215); elaborates, but really I think goes in with an attitude of thinking he is scum and twists and manipulates posts to make them scummy, specifically saying he is "not responding rationally, appeals to emotion, make the case sound weaker than it is, and forces an end to the discussion" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360310#msg360310); says how Andrew should have reacted if town (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360739#msg360739)
6. Twistedarcher - calling it too calm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359693#msg359693); can't elaborate (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg359959#msg359959); posts are saying hte same things over and over again (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360822#msg360822);
7. Witherweaver - finally chimes in with an opinion and says that he went back and that Andrew was overly defensive from the beginning (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360611#msg360611); answering Andrew's questions, basically saying "but it feels to me like people have been explaining and that you're just hanging onto the "nobody has a reason" defense." which I think hasn't been true through out as I have outlined many people who just said "andrew is reacting scummy" left it at that and then only answered when pressed or didn't answer at all; [url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360796#msg360796]further answers to questions saying "So maybe it would be more accurate to call it a "nobody has a valid reason" or "nobody can explain their reason" argument" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360716#msg360716)
8. shraeye - found andrew's reaction to thinking scum must be on his wagon scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360690#msg360690) This is actually one area that I do agree with!
9. sudgy - says he is fighting a lynch more here than in Adventure time (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360387#msg360387); says he overreacted, played different than in AdTime; similar play to DWI (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360876#msg360876)
12. Jimmmmm - as far as I can tell no specific talk about reactions
13. ashersky - doesn't like his reaction because he never tried to clarify... something I believe I have shown to be false (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360573#msg360573) a few posts after this I won't reference, but basically saying that Andrew never used the magic words that ashersky was looking for that apparently would have stopped him from being a scum read?
So what do i get from all of this, some interesting stuff....
1. andrew's reactions are being called all sorts of things: overthetop, incredulous, fake, frustrated, emotional, too calm, reactionary, selfaware, not "how I would have done it" etc, etc.
2. There is a legitimate case for Andrew getting frustrated. Nearly all of the early votes were accompanied with little to no explanation just... "he is acting scummy." This I think explains the aggressive, reactionary and frustrating posts that he provides
3. which then are interpreted as him scrambling or being scummy for being frusrated because people aren't fully answering his questions.
4. I do think that for the most part at this point people have answered his questions, but are continuing to harp on him for things that simply aren't true thus compounding the frustrations for him.
really for me, what I see here is a lynch mob. And someone trying to face down that lynch mob as best he can and getting extremely frustrated in the process. Frustration isn't a scumtell. People say it is. But it isn't. It is a losing tell. Andrew thinks he is going to lose this argument and he probably is going to (he might not lose the game, but no one wants to be lynched day1 in any game, let alone a cool RMM one) so yeah... he is going to react poorly to this. I don't buy the comparison to DWI... we lynched you sudgy because the reason wasn't poor. It was solid. Your reaction to it had very little to do with it ultimately...
I really don't expect this post to have a great effect.
It left me with scum reads on WW, faust, sudgy and Archetype. I consistently have scum reads on those last 3, so those are tempered a bit. Possibly scum reads on TA and Jimmmm, but not nearly as much.
That wasn't when I finally chimed in.. I initially responded to Ash saying that I had assumed it was a standard setup thing. Then I asked a question of ADK, and he responded. Then I posted saying that I wasn't sure about it and had to reread. Then I went back and forth with Andrewis a few times. And the main point I picked up on there was that his tone and response seemed the same when he only had one or two votes against him (when there was no reason to worry) as when he had five (when worrying is more justified). I read this as being overly defensive. I know you disagree with that.. you think he just quickly got frustrated because the accusation was unjustified and everyone was jumping on board with it and no one was listening. But anyway, that's how I interpreted it. I went thought some more about it and went back at the initial posts, and it was at that point that I made my vote.
I think out of all the people that voted against Andrewis, I was the one that took enough time to think about it and ask a lot of back and forth questions, and I answered the questions Andrewis had for me.
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I regularly disappear for 1-2 days at a time.
I am just going to jump in here for quick suggestion. Perhaps use the VLA page if you know in advance that you are going to disappear. Doing that will alleviate the suspicion that some people will automatically have about you not being around. If you don't use the VLA we don't know where you are? If you do, then we do. Obviously this only works if you know in advance, which I don't know if that was the case here or not. The VLA is there to clear up precisely this sort of confusion.
I hear what you're saying, but my time often disappears without any warning.
I also see what you're saying about Andrew, but I'm more sold on the original slip than many people. Plus a few things that he's said since then. Like the post where he said none of our reasons are convincing. But I can see a narrative where he's just legitimately frustrated at how people are treating this. My read is a bit tempered thinking about that narrative, but I'd probably still lynch Andrew.
I think faust is a very good place to look, and I'm not sure why Wither gets your nod for the person worth dayvigging. I think faust/ash would be better targets. What are your thoughts on ash? It seems that a lot of people have not posted stuff directly about him, despite the fact that he's at the center of this Andrew-business and all.
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I think ash is town. If I get lynched I'll flip town and if ash is scum, he knows this. It doesn't make sense to push this so hard with that knowledge. Of course, it could be so obvious that it's not but that's getting a little bold.
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I think ash is town. If I get lynched I'll flip town and if ash is scum, he knows this. It doesn't make sense to push this so hard with that knowledge. Of course, it could be so obvious that it's not but that's getting a little bold.
ash is VERY bold as scum.
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What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
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What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
I proposed (1) way back and no one responded to it. Well admittedly I didn't think it was likely, but the thought occurred to me.
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What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
I think 2 because of reasons I've stated earlier.
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Vote Count 1.6:
Jimmmm (1): xeiron
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (4): Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver
A Drowned Kernel (1): Archetype
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW
Witherweaver (1): yuma
Not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, shraeye, ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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I think out of all the people that voted against Andrewis, I was the one that took enough time to think about it and ask a lot of back and forth questions, and I answered the questions Andrewis had for me.
I understand that and as frustrating as this will be for you it makes you scummier. I hate that our f.ds meta has come this way, but it has. Because scum is more likely to pretend to be thorough because they know their actions are going to be under the microscope (or think they will be) and want to make sure everything looks "normal" whereas town just reacts.
But honestly this isn't enough for me to want to vig you. It just makes me suspicious. But I am someone who doesn't vig unless I am pretty sure.
I am not compulsive for Day1 and I don't think I will be shooting today barring something coming up that makes me want to.
I still think Andrew is not the best lynch. I think WW might be worth lynching (I am not willing to shoot him however) and there may be better options among faust, sudgy and arch but I have a known bias towards all three being scummy. And I consistently think that no-lynching is a better option in RMM games than normal games, so that might be an option but I anticipate getting a lot of negative backlash against that idea so I doubt it will go through.
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3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
I can't currently separate the above two. If you asked me to give a gut read I wouldn't be able to do so...
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What are the advantages to not lynching today? Is the setup that everyone has a power role, so there are no vanilla townies? So if we do mislynch, we're guaranteed to lose an ability?
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And I consistently think that no-lynching is a better option in RMM games than normal games, so that might be an option but I anticipate getting a lot of negative backlash against that idea so I doubt it will go through.
From a role/setup standpoint, you are generally correct about the merits of a no-lynch in RMM. From a gameplay/scumhunting standpoint, though, I don't think it's in our best interest.
The flip gives us a very important first data point against which we can compare everything else. We don't have a reference for anything anyone's said yet. That first flip gives us that.
Plus, we don't know how much power scum has at night; it could outweigh anything we think we're gaining by no lynching.
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What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
From most likely to least:
4 - 2 -3 - 1
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I'm fine with yuma not shooting today, I guess... it's better to have the Andrew wagon for analyzing than to have him shot, so he shouldn't shoot Andrew... and if he's not compulsive, well, there are benefits to scum not shooting D1. Though I think yuma needs to shoot D2 to confirm his role.
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I'll go 3-2-1-4.
I'm really confused by the ash-andrew thing. Both of them are scummy, but it seems unlikely that they would attack eachother that hard as town.
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*scum
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XP and faust, you both this it's most likely I'm town. So why lynch me today?
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I do not like a no-lynch.
We should use the oppurtunities we have to try lynch scum.
Better with Vote: AndrewisFTTW. I think he has a decent chance of flipping scum, and either way, he wagon will be informative.
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XP and faust, you both this it's most likely I'm town. So why lynch me today?
Because I think that about every single player in this game, and you're the most scummy.
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Quiet weekend huh.
Andrew I am not seeing any obvious connection between you and ash -- I think all 4 are possible. Why did you pick ash rather than someone else for that question? I must be missing some connection there
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Because ash is the one who pushed this whole thing and someone suggested he could be scum, which I don't really see.
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You think he's town?
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I do. I don't think he'd be this bold to push this lynch if he was scum, although shraeye mentioned that because it's ash, it's possible.
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because it's ash, it's likely.
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Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?
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Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?
I'm going to do a quick re-read before answering that.
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Ok I just skimmed over the last 10 pages or so. I think sudgy is scummiest to me right now. The whole L-1 thing looks to me like him trying to get in on the action to avoid suspicion of scum off the wagon.
Even before his vote, he begins with this, going to Adventure Time to compare my posts:
I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
But later (much later) he realizes his mistake:
Oh, wait, when you said you were only there for the first day in Adventure Time I thought that meant you got lynched. That puts a wrench in things...
He votes me first for my play in Adventure Time but when that doesn't work he doesn't really say much about it. His latest post is this:
What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
I think 2 because of reasons I've stated earlier.
But what are the reasons you stated earlier? Do you mean the comparison of my play here and my play in Adventure Time?
And then there's this. This still baffles me:
I (at the current moment) think you are scum, so I vote for you. I don't want the day to end now, but that doesn't make me not want to vote you. If it was only a day left to deadline I would be fine with a hammer.
And then here's sudgy defending his L-1 vote:
sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.
I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew. Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.
Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?
I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.
Alright. If you don't want it right away, then why put him to L-1? Especially since you said you'd go after whoever hammered him...that hammering could be prevented if you never put Andrew to L-1 in the first place.
Two reasons:
1. Actually voting for someone is a lot more than saying you will
2. L-1 is a scary place to be and we could figure out more from it
As for someone else hammering, I would only expect it from scum at this point (which is why it probably wouldn't happen) and it would be great if we could figure it out. Yuma possibly dying was what made me reconsider.
I'm more suspicious of sudgy putting me at L-1 than I am of whoever might hammer me and I don't think the hammer necessarily has to come from scum. It seems like if someone DID hammer, on D2 sudgy would jump all over them and thus try to shift suspicion as best he can.
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Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?
Sorry I misread that. Scummiest things I've seen that don't involve the pushing of my wagon. Got it. I'll re-read again.
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Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
How is evaluating someone's claim voteworthy? I said it's pretty unlikely. I'd love to have an IC, but giving someone IC status without considering alternative explanations would be downright stupid. I think at this stage (obviously pending actually seeing him use his power), yuma's pretty close.
Getting defensive?
I take that as a sign that I might be on to something with my vote on you.
Well there's this. I've had a scummy vibe from Xerion all game.
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That's definitely good points about sudgy though... I agree with a lot of what you were saying on him. Just based on wagon position I didn't think he would be scum, but I was confused with his read on ashersky and there's a lot of inconsistencies with what you bring up.
I don't think you could both be scum? He wouldn't want to put a teammate at d1 l-1 so quickly it's just too risky I think...like not impossible but not likely either.
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I don't think you could both be scum? He wouldn't want to put a teammate at d1 l-1 so quickly it's just too risky I think...like not impossible but not likely either.
ash doesn't like to bus as scum. Maybe one of these days he'll turn that on its head and catch us all by surprise, but I'd say it's unlikely he's doing that here.
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I'm talking about sudgy, not ash
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I'm talking about sudgy, not ash
Oh, well in that case I don't know. I should read better before I post...
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(I've been reading, but haven't found much to comment on, that's why I have been posting, sorry (mainly realized this because Andrew pointed out that my last post was a while ago))
What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
I think 2 because of reasons I've stated earlier.
But what are the reasons you stated earlier? Do you mean the comparison of my play here and my play in Adventure Time?
I still think you got overly frustrated, and you still remind me of myself in DW. The Adventure Time point is moot because I messed up.
L-1 Stuff
Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
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Vote Count 1.7:
sudgy (1): Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (5): Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, xeiron
A Drowned Kernel (1): Archetype
Twistedarcher (1): AndrewisFTTW
Witherweaver (1): yuma
Not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, shraeye, ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch..
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.
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Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.
But that only makes sense if he actually expected someone to hammer.
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Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.
As Jimmmmm said, I didn't expect anyone to hammer. My saying I would attack someone for lynching you was because of how preposterous of a situation it was.
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Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.
But that only makes sense if he actually expected someone to hammer.
Maybe he thought that was likely, I sure did. If not it doesn't really make a difference anyway.
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vote: sudgy
I don't like his reasons for voting at all. But more importantly I think they are a cover for voting.
His first reason was built off a faulty premise (which he has acknowledged, but hasn't moved his vote from) the second is a premise based off a meta from another player and another game.
And to an extent I agree with Andrew about sudgy wanting to potentially deflect his vote onto the hammerer. I agree with Jimmmm that this would require someone to hammer, but this is f.ds where our slogan is "derphammers are a fine and useful tool for town" and sudgy knows this.
Regardless I think he is a far better lynch option than Andrew and even if he isn't the player I want to focus on... that would still probably be WW... he might be a viable alternative to Andrew.
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I have a town read on ash. I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town. I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners. I'm not seeing that here.
This was also a scummy post from Sudgy that I found extremely faked. He also has basically no content except for outside of Andrew. Humm...
Vote: Sudgy
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SUDGYWAGON!
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And I consistently think that no-lynching is a better option in RMM games than normal games, so that might be an option but I anticipate getting a lot of negative backlash against that idea so I doubt it will go through.
From a role/setup standpoint, you are generally correct about the merits of a no-lynch in RMM. From a gameplay/scumhunting standpoint, though, I don't think it's in our best interest.
The flip gives us a very important first data point against which we can compare everything else. We don't have a reference for anything anyone's said yet. That first flip gives us that.
Plus, we don't know how much power scum has at night; it could outweigh anything we think we're gaining by no lynching.
This is true. However, I would postulate that in a RMM game we would have some roles with investigative abilities that could feasibly provide data points to go off... but that is an assumption (and i won't get into that argument again). But your point about mafia outweighing us in PRs is also good.
But really I think the reason that I always want to no-lynch in RMM is that I hate the idea of having a cool role and then losing the opportunity to use it because of a lynch. The first RMM game (RMMI) solved this and I tried to solve it as well in AD Mafia. Someday we should try it... why not this game?
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Ugh. Every time.
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I'm fine with yuma not shooting today, I guess... it's better to have the Andrew wagon for analyzing than to have him shot, so he shouldn't shoot Andrew... and if he's not compulsive, well, there are benefits to scum not shooting D1. Though I think yuma needs to shoot D2 to confirm his role.
I really don't like this.
I will shoot when I feel it is best to shoot (unless I am required by mod constraints) and that my shot is more than likely to hit scum. Nothing else will make me change my mind. I will not shoot to confirm my role. If you want that then lynch me. Because from my point of view I will not take out a player that might have an extremely positive role for town just for the sake of proving my role which I see as a potentially negative utility and thus more or less null.
Basically. You and no one else gets to decide when I shoot. I will die before shooting at a time that I disagree with and I disagree with shooting just to prove my role.
(MYLO or LYLO situations might potentially change my mind about this if it is a either you shoot or you die and town is guaranteed to lose the game)
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Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?
I wonder why are you asking this question?
And I will add that it isn't really a fair question because everything today has been about Andrew. There isn't much else to go off and I don't know how Andrew could really be expected to answer this...
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Can you please tell me why putting you to L-1 is scummy? You've said that a bajillion times, I've said why I don't think it's scummy, but you (and others) have never said why it was.
I stated my theory in my last post but I guess I can repeat it. By saying you would only expect scum to hammer at that point, you effectively shifted blame for a mislynch onto whoever potentially hammers, and putting me at L-1 made it much easier for that to happen.
But that only makes sense if he actually expected someone to hammer.
Maybe he thought that was likely, I sure did. If not it doesn't really make a difference anyway.
Well derphammers aren't unheard of, but they're pretty rare, especially if someone has made a point of stating they're at L-1. Also ash was already voting for you, so a deliberate hammer that far away from deadline was unlikely.
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I don't think you could both be scum? He wouldn't want to put a teammate at d1 l-1 so quickly it's just too risky I think...like not impossible but not likely either.
ash doesn't like to bus as scum. Maybe one of these days he'll turn that on its head and catch us all by surprise, but I'd say it's unlikely he's doing that here.
This is true, but I don't think it applies to the current situation.
Everyone knows that ash pounces on "scumslips." When I saw what Andrew had posted--and yes I noted it before anyone said anything--at work via e-mail I anticipated ash coming in and voting.
If he hadn't I would have been very suspicious of that. Because that is what I expect of ash.
Ash knows this and he knows that if there was a slip he would have to pounce on it, regardless of whether or not it was his teammate... which is why I can't deduce anything about ash's alignment from the current situation with Andrew because how ash is reacting is exactly how ash would react regardless of his alignment.
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I'll reply to you guys more later when my stress over something in real life has cooled down.
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vote: sudgy
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sudgy...could do. What about lynching ash?
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Andrew what are the scummiest things you've seen today that don't involve the pushing of your wagon?
I wonder why are you asking this question?
Because I only know about his scum reads within the context of his wagon, not outside of it.
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also, it's a great question.
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sudgy...could do. What about lynching ash?
I wouldn't want to lynch him over Sudgy or Andrew...or at all I guess? What's scummy about him?
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hunch. I haven't done my reading. But I'm getting that itch.
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What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
From most likely to least:
4, 2, 3, 1
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also, it's a great question.
How would you answer it.
I can tell you my answer. I saw practically nothing of value to comment on before the Andrew discussion--although I think we were on our way to getting there--and have since been completely and totally distracted by the Andrew discussion to the extent that there is very little to get any sort of read on.
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I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them. I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.
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I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them. I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.
Do it!
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I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them. I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.
Do it!
When is deadline? Oh. Thursday. I thought it was later. Vote: sudgy
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Well I guess I have to go back and reread Sudgy's responses to everything. I was never struck with a notion of scum from him, though the vote/unvote thing seemed suspicious. And the bit about reading the other game and then misinterpreting it (as if he didn't actually read it?). But I don't see what faking that gains him. And if it was a scummy slip, then it means he was really eager to get on the wagon and just grasped at any reason, and then later found a problem with his reason. But then why even bring up that his reason wasn't good in the first place? Because he was concerned someone would find it and he wanted to get in front of that?
I found Ash's actions to be more questionable.. but maybe that's because I would have thought of going all-out and acting certain about someone else's guilt is more of a scum thing to do than a town thing. But the general consensus seems to be that aggressive hunting is more of a town quality. That may be true, I don't really know.
I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
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Vote Count 1.7:
sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, yuma, Twistedarcher, AndrewisFTTW, Archetype
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, xeiron
Not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, shraeye, ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time That's in 2 days. (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal. The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption." His reaction was more "What? Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me. Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.
I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading. So why bring it up? If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.
Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet. I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.
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Andrew did bring up the mistake... or at least he pointed out that sudgy coming to the conclusion that he did was weird...
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Alright, anything directed to me from this post of yuma's I am answering:
vote: sudgy
I don't like his reasons for voting at all. But more importantly I think they are a cover for voting.
I can just remember from memory people using this case on me multiple times (as town).
His first reason was built off a faulty premise (which he has acknowledged, but hasn't moved his vote from) the second is a premise based off a meta from another player and another game.
I originally voted him not for the faulty premise. I started looking at other things to see if they complimented the vote or not (to see if I should still have the vote). I mentioned the thing about Adventure Time (but it's moot), MXXXII, and him being frustrated in a scummy way. I still stand by the other two points.
And to an extent I agree with Andrew about sudgy wanting to potentially deflect his vote onto the hammerer. I agree with Jimmmm that this would require someone to hammer, but this is f.ds where our slogan is "derphammers are a fine and useful tool for town" and sudgy knows this.
I have never seen a derphammer early in a day. If I had voted for him now to L-1, at this point I would have been fine with a hammer and wouldn't go after the hammerer any more.
Actually, the one time I saw an uncalled hammer early in a day was by the mafia.
I have a town read on ash. I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town. I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners. I'm not seeing that here.
This was also a scummy post from Sudgy that I found extremely faked. He also has basically no content except for outside of Andrew. Humm...
Vote: Sudgy
I guess I can't say much other than it isn't faked, and that there isn't much in this game outside of Andrew.
sudgy...could do. What about lynching ash?
I still don't want to lynch him.
I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them. I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.
Could you say why?
I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
As I said earlier, my original reasons for voting him were not Adventure Time.
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If you are going to mislynch, I would probably be a better choice because (I'm saying this because I'm at L-1), my role isn't the greatest. I'll full claim if someone announces intent to hammer.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
That was a miscount. He has 5 votes for him.
Oh. Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
THIS IS L-1
This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.
unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.
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WW, "what? are you serious?" is not the same as frustration. I don't know where everyone got that I was frustrated right from the outset. Here are my first two posts after ash and shraeye voted me, for reference:
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
ADK is flailing.
I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew. Could be town's fastest win ever.
Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?
If you think that's frustration, fine. But really it's joking/confusion about whether or not this is serious because I thought that would just be too ridiculous to be taken seriously.
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Cool with Sudgy lynch, and yes you should probably claim at intent to hammer I think.
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Andrew did bring up the mistake... or at least he pointed out that sudgy coming to the conclusion that he did was weird...
Andrewis pointed out the situations weren't the same since here he was at 5 votes and there he wasn't. Sudgy responded by saying his evaluation was through the entirety of this game, not just since he had come under 5 votes. It seemed to have been kind of dropped from there.
Okay, going back I see it was drawn under some attention later. Twistedarcher asked Sudgy to prove the point that Andrewis' play is different here than it was in the AdventureTime game. Then Sudgy chimes in with saying that he had originally though Andrewis was lynched, not killed during the night. This was a few pages after Sudgy's initial vote (and subsequent unvote, which I never really understood) against Andrewis.
Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis. In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before. But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?
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WW, "what? are you serious?" is not the same as frustration. I don't know where everyone got that I was frustrated right from the outset. Here are my first two posts after ash and shraeye voted me, for reference:
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
ADK is flailing.
I'd suggest yuma dayvig ADK and we lynch Andrew. Could be town's fastest win ever.
Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?
If you think that's frustration, fine. But really it's joking/confusion about whether or not this is serious because I thought that would just be too ridiculous to be taken seriously.
That wasn't what I said. Reread my last post please. (I'm not saying that to be condescending at all; I think you just misinterpreted what I said.)
I'm saying that I see your initial reaction as a "what? are you serious?" response, and stronger than was was merited. You acting frustrated was what Yuma was saying about you, though I believe this was more in the context of what ensued after these, and not these initial responses.
Honestly I don't read the joke/confusion part at all. To me the part about drunk mafia sounds like a backlash.. like saying "wow Ash that conclusion is so bad you must be drunk." You say it's a joke, but it didn't really sound like one to me. But it's totally possible that this is just a case of me not being able to read tone correctly through written messages and all.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
That was a miscount. He has 5 votes for him.
Oh. Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
THIS IS L-1
This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.
unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.
The original reason in my mind was your reaction. Adventure Time just put a little more oomph into it. I thought about MXXXII too afterwards.
Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis. In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before. But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?
I meant more, "All previous reasons other than Adventure Time". I still think he's scum based on other reasons.
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal. The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption." His reaction was more "What? Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me. Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.
I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading. So why bring it up? If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.
Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet. I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.
The bolded part is what I was responding to.
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Vote Count 1.8:
sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, yuma, Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, xeiron
Not voting (4): sudgy, shraeye, ashersky, AndrewisFTTW
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time. (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
It's no more than I've said before back when we were having the big back-and-forths with Andrewis. I was being short there because I feel that I've said it before. I felt then (and I haven't since changed my mind) that he overracted to accusations that, if he were innocent, wouldn't be that big of a deal. The same accusation was made against you, and your reaction was much more straightforward, kind of "I just made an assumption." His reaction was more "What? Are you serious?", or at least that's how the tone read to me. Yuma makes a good argument for him just being frustrated because things were getting out of hand, but it seems like the frustration started before the getting out of hand part. Plus, if he did get lynched and turned out to be town, then looking back and knowing that would be helpful for figuring out who is scum.
I agree that Sudgy looks like he just jumped on the wagon, but why would he point out his own mistake? No one brought up that Sudgy was under the impression that he though Andrewis got lynched in the other game, and he didn't bring it up until he did so in the context of him misreading. So why bring it up? If he wanted to get on the wagon under a veil, it would have been a lot more effective for him to continue with his original reasoning, I think.
Okay so that last paragraph was from my memory of what happened, I haven't gone back and done the reread yet. I didn't recall Sudgy voting for you and switching to Andrewis.
The bolded part is what I was responding to.
Oh, I see. Poor writing by me. I meant there that I had some trouble buying the narrative, because if you were only acting this way because you were frustrated about everything going on, that doesn't explain it because you were acting in a defensive manner from the beginning.
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If I didn't defend myself everyone would've jumped on me just the same, if not more.
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I skimmed the first day of Adventure Time to see how he reacted to his lynch and he didn't seem to be fighting it nearly as much there as here. That play difference would be enough to make me vote him, but he's at L-1, so...
That was a miscount. He has 5 votes for him.
Oh. Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
THIS IS L-1
This is your original reason for voting me and it is most definitely for Adventure Time.
unvote for now. I'd like to continue this conversation instead of trying to get a lynch right away. We have time.
The original reason in my mind was your reaction. Adventure Time just put a little more oomph into it. I thought about MXXXII too afterwards.
Okay, so to Sudgy: You say you were mistaken originally and that "That puts a wrench in things...", but you never actually change your position on Andrewis. In fact your next reply on the issue is to say that you think it's most likely that Andrewis is scum and Ash is town because of reasons you stated before. But you stated those reasons were misfounded.. so what's going on here?
I meant more, "All previous reasons other than Adventure Time". I still think he's scum based on other reasons.
Can you recap those reasons?
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If I didn't defend myself everyone would've jumped on me just the same, if not more.
I wouldn't have. Scumslip arguments are horrible. And it was the way you defended, not just defending.
-snip-
Can you recap those reasons?
Mainly, I think he overreacted and got too frustrated, some of his posts give me a "you caught me for the wrong reasons" vibe, and he reminds me of myself in MXXXII.
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Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.
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Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.
I agree that the sudgy wagon seems scum driven.
The question is then who on it is scum?
Jimm's vote is a remnant from the old days of RVS
Yuma is the main force behind the wagon, I do not feel safe about him, but neither do I see a reson to vote for him.
TwistedArcher seems towny enough.
Much has been said about AndrewisFTTW, but his place on the sudgy wagon is no alignment tell. Everyone would do that when they are the main lynch alternative.
Archetype does not seems any more scummy than usual.
A Drowned Kernel could wery well be scum. He seems eager to lynch anyone except Andrew.
I will go with vote: jimmmmm. While he is not really a force on the wagon I do not like how he stays in the background.
He comments some thing that happends. Watches the Andrews wagon from a distance softly supporting it.
It feels like he just waits for a (mis)lynch to happen without wanting to get his own hands dirty.
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Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.
i am far more interested in determining which will result in a scum lynch... andrew i think has very little possibility, sudgy more so
getting a scummy vibe from faust off this
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Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.
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Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.
It is scummy because it happened so fast, and because there is thin reasononing for the votes given. At least there is nothing there that convinces me that sudgy is scum.
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Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.
It is scummy because it happened so fast, and because there is thin reasononing for the votes given. At least there is nothing there that convinces me that sudgy is scum.
fast wagons have nothing to do with accuracy. At all!
If you disagree with the reasons then state them, but "fast" is not good enough
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Recent blitz experiences (and I'm sure Yuma would agree here) has taught me that super fast wagons and deadline crunches are not only a great tool for reading interactions, but also they have just as high a chance of hitting scum than a wagon that forms slowly
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I'm back from LA in an hour or so.
I want to point out the stall-ness of the super stalled Andrew stall wagon.
Scum not bussing, maybe? Stall wagon is scum wagon.
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I'm back from LA in an hour or so.
I want to point out the stall-ness of the super stalled Andrew stall wagon.
Scum not bussing, maybe? Stall wagon is scum wagon.
Translation?
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Looking forward to your analysis Ash.
WW, basically he's saying that Andrew got to 5-6 votes then no one else was willing to vote. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here Ash) that a wagon that stalls at that point is more likely to be on scum than town, because with partners potentially not willing to bus, it's much much harder to get to 7 people than on a town member.
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Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.
It is scummy because I see very little reasoning behind that wagon.
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Looking back at the vote count, I realized I'm still not voting Andrew. Vote: AndrewisFTTW
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Vote Count 1.9:
sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, yuma, Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, faust, Witherweaver, sudgy
Jimmmmmmm (1): xeiron
Not voting (4): shraeye, ashersky, AndrewisFTTW
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time. (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles may be around and will try to get online asap if it comes right down to deadline.)
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Looking forward to your analysis Ash.
WW, basically he's saying that Andrew got to 5-6 votes then no one else was willing to vote. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here Ash) that a wagon that stalls at that point is more likely to be on scum than town, because with partners potentially not willing to bus, it's much much harder to get to 7 people than on a town member.
That's the gist, yes. I think it's fairly accurate to say that wagons that grow, then stall, but don't shrink, are often on scum. I think it's truer later in games, especially if scum have a larger share of the votes, but we've seen it often on Day 1s. It's been done on purpose by scum teams before (see the yuma/raerae/axxle team in Adventure Time for how it doesn't always work out).
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So I'm back from VLA.
I'll prioritize this game over my other one, as the deadline is sooner. I've skimmed along when possible in airports and whatnot, and posted sparingly. I'll read back and get thoughts down today.
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That's the gist, yes. I think it's fairly accurate to say that wagons that grow, then stall, but don't shrink, are often on scum. I think it's truer later in games, especially if scum have a larger share of the votes, but we've seen it often on Day 1s. It's been done on purpose by scum teams before (see the yuma/raerae/axxle team in Adventure Time for how it doesn't always work out).
I don't think that is fair to say. I would say that it happens, but I would not use the qualifier "often." Although I would agree more with the assessment of "later" days, but I don't believe you can just state that this is a scum wagon because it stalled... especially once you analyze the content that it is based on... people realizing that the wagon was rather crappy in the first place isn't going to lead to a bunch of new voters... instead just people digging their heals in and being stubborn.
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And I consistently think that no-lynching is a better option in RMM games than normal games, so that might be an option but I anticipate getting a lot of negative backlash against that idea so I doubt it will go through.
From a role/setup standpoint, you are generally correct about the merits of a no-lynch in RMM. From a gameplay/scumhunting standpoint, though, I don't think it's in our best interest.
The flip gives us a very important first data point against which we can compare everything else. We don't have a reference for anything anyone's said yet. That first flip gives us that.
Plus, we don't know how much power scum has at night; it could outweigh anything we think we're gaining by no lynching.
This is true. However, I would postulate that in a RMM game we would have some roles with investigative abilities that could feasibly provide data points to go off... but that is an assumption (and i won't get into that argument again). But your point about mafia outweighing us in PRs is also good.
But really I think the reason that I always want to no-lynch in RMM is that I hate the idea of having a cool role and then losing the opportunity to use it because of a lynch. The first RMM game (RMMI) solved this and I tried to solve it as well in AD Mafia. Someday we should try it... why not this game?
I see your point yuma, but I just don't think this is the game where it happens. I think this discussion trailed off after this post, right?
Each player knows whether their role is cool enough to want to no lynch for. But no one can make that argument without painting a target on their back, right? Seems dangerous to me. Maybe that's why the discussion hasn't happened.
I guess maybe it's good to keep in mind that no lynch isn't the end of the world and if you are choosing between a deadline hammer of a town read or letting it deadline out, there's an argument to be made that no lynch is not egregious?
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That's the gist, yes. I think it's fairly accurate to say that wagons that grow, then stall, but don't shrink, are often on scum. I think it's truer later in games, especially if scum have a larger share of the votes, but we've seen it often on Day 1s. It's been done on purpose by scum teams before (see the yuma/raerae/axxle team in Adventure Time for how it doesn't always work out).
I don't think that is fair to say. I would say that it happens, but I would not use the qualifier "often." Although I would agree more with the assessment of "later" days, but I don't believe you can just state that this is a scum wagon because it stalled... especially once you analyze the content that it is based on... people realizing that the wagon was rather crappy in the first place isn't going to lead to a bunch of new voters... instead just people digging their heals in and being stubborn.
Okay. I haven't done the stats on this particular phenomenon, but it feels "often" to me. Depends on the scum's willingness to bus early, too, I suppose.
There are many reasons for a wagon to stall, I think is your point. I think you'd concede that "the wagon is on scum and they don't want to bus" is one possible reason.
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
Did the bolded line above strike anyone else as very odd? It's either rolefishy or...I don't know. Something off about it. It's completely unconnected to the rest of the paragraph, too, which is about voting and such.
I don't know what it means, but I'm not a big fan.
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If you are going to mislynch, I would probably be a better choice because (I'm saying this because I'm at L-1), my role isn't the greatest. I'll full claim if someone announces intent to hammer.
Sounds like sudgy knows the other wagon is a mislynch before it happens...
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If you are going to mislynch, I would probably be a better choice because (I'm saying this because I'm at L-1), my role isn't the greatest. I'll full claim if someone announces intent to hammer.
Sounds like sudgy knows the other wagon is a mislynch before it happens...
I'm more saying, "If you're going to lynch me, it's one of the best mislynches you could make (whoever it is you are lynching)."
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If you are going to mislynch, I would probably be a better choice because (I'm saying this because I'm at L-1), my role isn't the greatest. I'll full claim if someone announces intent to hammer.
Sounds like sudgy knows the other wagon is a mislynch before it happens...
I'm more saying, "If you're going to lynch me, it's one of the best mislynches you could make (whoever it is you are lynching)."
Maybe, but it doesn't sound that way.
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Recent blitz experiences (and I'm sure Yuma would agree here) has taught me that super fast wagons and deadline crunches are not only a great tool for reading interactions, but also they have just as high a chance of hitting scum than a wagon that forms slowly
I find this true as well. The Mcmcsalot quick lynch in the last Blitz game made his partners really obvious.
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Alright, caught up.
Honestly, not a lot there. TA and yuma are town reads out of all of this.
I feel like there are a number of players just skating by, and it's an easy place for scum to hide. I'd say faust, both Xs, ADK, shraeye and maybe Jimmmmm fit into that description? Obviously can't all be scum, but seems like a good place to hide.
We've got 50 hours to deadline, basically. I don't think we should limit this to sudgy vs. Andrew (the only two wagons currently), but need to look around.
The good thing about a lynch of either large wagon is plenty of interactions to review. Andrew has done nothing to convince me of his innocence up to this point, and nothing going on around him has cleared him either. sudgy is always scummy, and he's not seemingly like caught!sudgy, which he's (unfortunately for him) unable to hide very well.
I'm going to do some targeted re-reads.
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I support a sudgy lynch. I'd prefer xeiron or ADK, but it seems like a wagon is unlikely to start on them. I don't mind an Andrew lynch, but I'd vote for sudgy over him.
Could you say why?
Well, considering I was the first person to zero in on your L-1 thing, that is the main reason. The switching your vote to Andrew because he got some more heat is a classic scumtell. With the quote ashersky recently pulled up, it looks like you are giving up. Which is another scumtell. Granted, I usually read you as scummy. However, this sort of reminds me of that one game where you were a SK, so I'm comfortable with my vote.
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
Did the bolded line above strike anyone else as very odd? It's either rolefishy or...I don't know. Something off about it. It's completely unconnected to the rest of the paragraph, too, which is about voting and such.
I don't know what it means, but I'm not a big fan.
I read it as just a player's first RMM game. I think it'd be odd if it came from anyone who wasn't new to the RMM scene.
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I'd maybe consider Xeiron but I don't think I would consider anyone else outside of Andrew/Sudgy.
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I'd maybe consider Xeiron but I don't think I would consider anyone else outside of Andrew/Sudgy.
What's your reasoning there?
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I'd maybe consider Xeiron but I don't think I would consider anyone else outside of Andrew/Sudgy.
What's your reasoning there?
on xeiron? or on not considering anyone else?
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Targeted re-read of Xerxes, who's had a grand total of 7 posts.
1 - votes for faust after the "If I was Mordeth" comment
2 - flavor claims egwene (pronounced Egg Weenee from now on), asks if anyone is going to a meeting
3 - votes for Andrew for his reaction to the scumslip argument, called it "too much self-awareness for town"
4 - expands on Andrew, says it looks like he combed his post to be as towny as possible
5 - fine with his Andrew vote, says Andrew ignored his explanation, slight scum read on ash out of the blue (basically OMGUS for me mentioning he'd be a good yumavig.)
6 - gives a 3-2-1-4 answer, saying that ash scum/Andrew town is most likely. Inconsistent with votes and statements.
7 - edit for clarification, not a separate post
So...not a strong showing from Xerxes here. I find his ranking that ash scum/Andrew town is his top choice in the pairings very odd, given his points on Andrew and his "fine with my vote" comment. Inconsistency isn't always an alignment tell, but it's something that's noticed anyway.
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I'd maybe consider Xeiron but I don't think I would consider anyone else outside of Andrew/Sudgy.
What's your reasoning there?
on xeiron? or on not considering anyone else?
Yes.
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On no one else: I don't have any major scum reads, and given that there's already wagons on two people I think have a decent chance of being scum (Sudgy + Andrew), I'm not really interested in moving my vote from Sudgy right now....if that doesn't work I am fine with Andrew. They are at the top of my scum list basically so I'm happy keeping the lynch between the two of them.
On Xeiron: He seems less puzzly than usual, and I found his view on the Sudgy wagon scummy (moreso than Faust's). I'm not interested in voting there over Sudgy or Andrew right now, but I'd be happier there than anywhere else.
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On Xeiron: He seems less puzzly than usual, and I found his view on the Sudgy wagon scummy (moreso than Faust's). I'm not interested in voting there over Sudgy or Andrew right now, but I'd be happier there than anywhere else.
And for some reason I found faust's response scummier than xeirons... but I can't remember why.
Oh, I remember... xeiron went somewhere with it and moved to a Jimmmm vote. He tried to narrow down the suspicion and see what people actually did and said, faust just made a vast statement and continued to remain on the Andrew wagon. Casting a wide net of suspicion but not doing anything about it...
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and I do agree with some of the points that xeiron made about Jimmmm... I feel like he has been one of the least talked about players this game....when xeiron voted for him I was confused...welll initially I was confused because I thought it said "jotheonah" for some reason and he obviously isn't in the game (but then I was confused again that Jimmmm was in the game)...
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I actually kept on trying to post and then having computer problems, but what I've meant to do all along is vote: ashersky and he just reminded me. I'd be okay with a sudgy lynch as well as Andrew or ash.
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I've been getting a scum read on Xeiron all game. I could do either him or Sudgy. I'm interested in seeing the rest of ash's targeted reads.
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If Andrew isn't going to be lynched, I would be okay with xeiron too for lurking. I would still prefer Andrew though.
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I actually kept on trying to post and then having computer problems, but what I've meant to do all along is vote: ashersky and he just reminded me. I'd be okay with a sudgy lynch as well as Andrew or ash.
Such a compelling case you have there, omguspraelor.
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Recent blitz experiences (and I'm sure Yuma would agree here) has taught me that super fast wagons and deadline crunches are not only a great tool for reading interactions, but also they have just as high a chance of hitting scum than a wagon that forms slowly
I find this true as well. The Mcmcsalot quick lynch in the last Blitz game made his partners really obvious.
But the mcmcsalot wagon was on scum.
I agree that scum is usually hesitant to blitzbussing, and if Sudgy ever flips scum I agree that then yuma, Twistedarcher, AndrewisFTTW, Archetype and A Drowned Kernel is all probably town.
I think Sudgy is town, though. And I also think scum is just as likely to join blitzwagons on a town player as town is.
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I'm not much of a person for cases; you haven't voted me yet, so it's not true OMGUS. What looks scummy to me is that whenever you mention me, it's to cast suspicion on without reasons scum would act the way I'm acting and without a vote that would be visible later.
It's not inconsistent to think that you have a higher than average chance of being scum and that Andrew does too without thinking both of you are scum. I'd still be voting Andrew except that it looks like it's going nowhere and fewer people have noticed your scumminess.
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Faust, xeiron, you are not really talking about why this wagon is scummy...just that the fact that there is a wagon. Wagons happen towards the end of days. Why is this one scummy? I didn't see anything from either of you that makes me want to unvote. I'm not scared just cause its a wagon why would I be? We need wagons to make lynches.
It is scummy because it happened so fast, and because there is thin reasononing for the votes given. At least there is nothing there that convinces me that sudgy is scum.
I agree with yuma. Why do people always say fast wagons are scummy?
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I still find Andrewis to be the most guilty acting.. it just feels like he's hiding something. I don't really have any reason to think differently about him, so I'll leave my vote where it is for now.
I'd like more elaboration on the "it feels like he's hiding something" thing, that feels incredibly vague.
I'm having a hard time with this game, especially since the whole RMM thing might give people any number of motivations for doing or saying odd things based on their roles. But as I pointed out way back when, when the thing with Andrew and me happened, Sudgy originally was voting for me, then switched to Andrew when Andrew started getting more heat. His justifications for voting for Andrew were, as has been pointed out, flimsily based on a misinterpretation of a previous game. To me it looks like he was eager for a mislynch. For me it's all enough to
Vote: Sudgy
That is L-1.
Did the bolded line above strike anyone else as very odd? It's either rolefishy or...I don't know. Something off about it. It's completely unconnected to the rest of the paragraph, too, which is about voting and such.
I don't know what it means, but I'm not a big fan.
Doesn't seem odd to me at all.
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vote: ash
I'm down with a snap wagon on ash.
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Well, I don't really have a scum read on Sudgy. I see what people are saying, but I think it's more likely a case of someone not playing very carefully. If he was scum he'd probably be much more conscious about what he's posting. Or else he's just going for crazy randomness.
My opinion on Andrewis hasn't changed. I don't think there's any more to be said about it, though. It would just be rehashing what has been said before, and I can't see me suddenly seeing it in a new light. I would really like to know his alignment, though.
I think out of all the options other than Andrewis, Ash comes off as the most scummy. It makes more sense to me for super aggression to come from scum rather than town. To me it would get a mislynch more likely as some of the town can get convinced by the argument, scum can hop on the wagon without much suspicion, and people that are on the fence can look to flaws in the other person's defense. In fact, that could have indeed been what happened here. If Andrewis was town, he got put in an uncomfortable spot pretty quickly, and most of the people that voted against him (including me) did so because of issues with how he defended himself, not because of the original accusation. And then when the mislynch happens, you have the wine-in-front-of-me defense "Why would I have been so aggressive about it if I was scum? Scum is more likely to come in later and dodge suspicion." And people would probably buy that, because it would take a lot of guts.
Well, I'm back to being uncertain about the Andrewis/Ash thing. I have trouble reconciling scum reads on both of them. Maybe it's an act to confuse us, but Ash was pushing it pretty hard, and that seems like a really risky idea. Though maybe the goal could have been to get town on the wagon and then cast them as scum that were trying to sneak on the mislynch without raising much attention.
I suppose there is a chance they're both scum, but not on the same team. One could be a third party (serial killer or whatever).
So my choices are Andrewis or Ash. I guess I'd be okay with either.. I'm going to Vote: Ashersky.
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vote: witherweaver
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vote: witherweaver
Why?
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vote: witherweaver
Why?
stuff from before and your convenient vote on ash, despite not being able to reconcile scum reads on both of them when it is obvious just from probability alone that that is the least likely of the four possibilities...
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vote: witherweaver
Why?
stuff from before and your convenient vote on ash, despite not being able to reconcile scum reads on both of them when it is obvious just from probability alone that that is the least likely of the four possibilities...
Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
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Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
convenient because the andrew wagon is disappearing, so time to jump ship, the ash wagon is growing... you are #3 or 4, and because ash is someone who has displayed some suspicion against you... nice to have someone like that out of the way if you are scum
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Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
convenient because the andrew wagon is disappearing, so time to jump ship, the ash wagon is growing... you are #3 or 4, and because ash is someone who has displayed some suspicion against you... nice to have someone like that out of the way if you are scum
I don't remember Ash displaying any suspicion against me. If I was just jumping on a wagon, why wouldn't I jump on Sudgy?
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Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
convenient because the andrew wagon is disappearing, so time to jump ship, the ash wagon is growing... you are #3 or 4, and because ash is someone who has displayed some suspicion against you... nice to have someone like that out of the way if you are scum
I don't remember Ash displaying any suspicion against me. If I was just jumping on a wagon, why wouldn't I jump on Sudgy?
he suggested you as a possible dayvig target... and you had already maintained that you didn't like the sudgy wagon and you couldn't just join it after saying as such
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Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
convenient because the andrew wagon is disappearing, so time to jump ship, the ash wagon is growing... you are #3 or 4, and because ash is someone who has displayed some suspicion against you... nice to have someone like that out of the way if you are scum
I don't remember Ash displaying any suspicion against me. If I was just jumping on a wagon, why wouldn't I jump on Sudgy?
he suggested you as a possible dayvig target... and you had already maintained that you didn't like the sudgy wagon and you couldn't just join it after saying as such
But why would I say that I didn't like the Sudgy wagon at all? Why not just get on board with it instead?
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I don't remember Ash saying to Dayvig me.. I'll look back.
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But why would I say that I didn't like the Sudgy wagon at all? Why not just get on board with it instead?
lots of reasons.
1. partners... not the most likely but possible?
2. scum needs to have town reads
3. I don;t remember when you first said it, but it might have been at a time when the andrew lynch looked like it was going through, getting off it would have created a vacuum and who knows where the lynch could have gone... to a partner?
and more i am sure
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But why would I say that I didn't like the Sudgy wagon at all? Why not just get on board with it instead?
lots of reasons.
1. partners... not the most likely but possible?
2. scum needs to have town reads
3. I don;t remember when you first said it, but it might have been at a time when the andrew lynch looked like it was going through, getting off it would have created a vacuum and who knows where the lynch could have gone... to a partner?
and more i am sure
Well (1) is not true. I don't know what (2) means. I don't think (3) is true at all.. The Andrewis lynch didn't look like it was going through, and Sudgy was definitely on the upswing.
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what i mean is that scum needs to sometimes say "i think x is town" or "i don't like this lynch" otherwise the end up just going around finding everyone scummy and eventually that comes back to bite them once someone notices
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Convenient? I don't get it. I think them both being scum is the least likely, but I think that one is. My argument against Ash was starting to sound better, and there might be something to be gained from the discussions there.
convenient because the andrew wagon is disappearing, so time to jump ship, the ash wagon is growing... you are #3 or 4, and because ash is someone who has displayed some suspicion against you... nice to have someone like that out of the way if you are scum
why are scum looking to jump ship on a disappearing wagon?
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Vote Count 1.10:
sudgy (4): Jimmmmm, Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (2): faust, sudgy
Jimmmmmmm (1): xeiron
ashersky (3): XerxesPraelor, shraeye, Witherweaver
Witherweaver (1): yuma
Not voting (2): ashersky, AndrewisFTTW
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in about 24 + 7 hours). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.
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what i mean is that scum needs to sometimes say "i think x is town" or "i don't like this lynch" otherwise the end up just going around finding everyone scummy and eventually that comes back to bite them once someone notices
Okay.. I guess that makes sense.. but I'm just trying to figure out who the scum are and give my honest reads. I'm not going to want to vote for someone that I think is town, or that I don't have a convincing reason to think is scum.. unless I guess there is something to be gained from the information on a mislynch.
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I see that voting Ash is the new thing. I did reread him, and is not convinced. Reads like town Ash to me.
Anyone want to resurrect the Andrew wagon?
vote: andrewisFTTW
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I see that voting Ash is the new thing. I did reread him, and is not convinced. Reads like town Ash to me.
oh, ok. Any points worth pointing out from your reread?
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I see that voting Ash is the new thing. I did reread him, and is not convinced. Reads like town Ash to me.
oh, ok. Any points worth pointing out from your reread?
Not really.
Ash has been agressinve and pushes his vagons hard, but he always does.
I was looking for stances that do not feel genuine, as I rembemer that from scum!ash in other games, But I did not find that now.
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that answer displeases me.
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Uh oh. Now you done it.
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I'm gonna pull a yuma and say seriously dude? When you choose to comment on something, which is pretty rare, you just accuse someone of something that doesn't quite make sense and just jump from wagon to wagon for no good reason. So with that...
vote: Xeiron
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I looked back and never found Ash suggesting me as a dayvig target. I didn't see him mention me at all until he said he supported me claiming.
When asked who should be targeted, Ash responded with: Shraeye, Sudgy, and the "two X's" (Xerion and Xerxes).
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Ok so actually Xeiron hasn't been jumping from wagon to wagon but he's still super scummy and I've been saying so all game.
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Since Andrew isn't happening, I'll Vote: xeiron as well. He's been way too lurky and not having much content when he does post.
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that answer displeases me.
Would you care to point out for me why ash is a good lynch target?
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Not a fan of the move away from Sudgy/Andrew, I think I eat to leave my vote on sudgy. Not gonna lynch ash.
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But seriously why are we getting sidetracked from sudgy? I see no reason other than he is not the flavor of the month anymore. I still have yet to see a defense of sudgy that sticks out and yet everyone is moving off. I am as much of a fan of quick wagons as anyone else but we are abandoning wagons pretty quickly with no reason it seems. I doesn't feel to me like we got it wrong with Andrew/sudgy, I really do think a scum is there and I don't get why people moved away.
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Not gonna lynch ash.
why not?
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Not gonna lynch ash.
why not?
I don't have a scum read on him. He hasn't appeared on my scum radar at all today and I think sudgy and Andrew both have better odds of being scum. (I'd also rather lynch xeiron and probably ww over ash).
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But seriously why are we getting sidetracked from sudgy? I see no reason other than he is not the flavor of the month anymore. I still have yet to see a defense of sudgy that sticks out and yet everyone is moving off. I am as much of a fan of quick wagons as anyone else but we are abandoning wagons pretty quickly with no reason it seems. I doesn't feel to me like we got it wrong with Andrew/sudgy, I really do think a scum is there and I don't get why people moved away.
You're right (not about me but about focusing on sudgy). But Xeiron is just... so... scummy... argh!
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thanks for bringing me back TA...
vote: sudgy
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That's L-2. I have no problem putting sudgy at L-1 or even hammering if/when the time is right.
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Vote Count 1.11:
sudgy (5): Jimmmmm, Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, yuma
AndrewisFTTW (2): faust, , xeiron
ashersky (3): XerxesPraelor, shraeye, Witherweaver
xeiron (2): AndrewisFTTW, sudgy
Not voting (1): ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in about 24 + 7 hours). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.
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That's L-2. I have no problem putting sudgy at L-1 or even hammering if/when the time is right.
yeah I think you should come back to sudgy. Hopefully someone can state intent to hammer and he can give a defense and claim if he so desires?
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I've already given a defense to all the points I've seen people make on me, so I have no more defense to give. I'll claim with intent to hammer.
I want to lynch Andrew, but am fine with xeiron too. I would need some convincing for others.
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I've already given a defense to all the points I've seen people make on me, so I have no more defense to give. I'll claim with intent to hammer.
I want to lynch Andrew, but am fine with xeiron too. I would need some convincing for others.
I'll hammer to avoid a no lynch. As it is, you aren't at L-1, though.
You had the odd mislynch comment earlier that made it sound like you weren't super impressed with your role. If you think your claim is going to change people's minds, I don't think you need to wait until L-1. We don't have a lot of time and will need to find another lynch.
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Agree with Ash, if Sudgy's claim is gonna prevent us from lynching, it's better to come now than later. If it's not gonna prevent us from lynching it doesn't matter too much. But we are close to deadline and 7 votes takes awhile to build on someone, I do not really think waiting to deadline is in our best interest
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I don't think my claim will stop my lynch. I just don't want to give unnecessary information to the mafia (so if it didn't look like I was going to get lynched, I wouldn't want to claim).
Actually, come to think of it, I probably don't need to claim because my flip will give enough information.
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I don't think my claim will stop my lynch. I just don't want to give unnecessary information to the mafia (so if it didn't look like I was going to get lynched, I wouldn't want to claim).
Actually, come to think of it, I probably don't need to claim because my flip will give enough information.
You are awfully resigned to dying. Almost like you want to?
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Is it normal to be this nonchalant about getting lynched?
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I don't think my claim will stop my lynch. I just don't want to give unnecessary information to the mafia (so if it didn't look like I was going to get lynched, I wouldn't want to claim).
Actually, come to think of it, I probably don't need to claim because my flip will give enough information.
You are awfully resigned to dying. Almost like you want to?
No, I don't want to, it's just that it's happened so much that I've noticed it's better to accept it if there's nothing I can do about it. I've done all I can think of.
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unvote
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vote: jimmmm
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where is people?
I am having pretty strong doubts about lynching sudgy at this point...
I think I like the Jimmmm vote. xeiron brought up a good point about him:
I will go with vote: jimmmmm. While he is not really a force on the wagon I do not like how he stays in the background.
He comments some thing that happends. Watches the Andrews wagon from a distance softly supporting it.
It feels like he just waits for a (mis)lynch to happen without wanting to get his own hands dirty.
I don't really like where he got there in analyzing the sudgy wagon because it was fast growing... but I do agree with the points and that he has been in the background both suspicion wise and content wise
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Xeiron does that too.
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I am going to do something I did in Adventure Time--albeit as scum--that I think helped narrow down who was scum pretty substantially... for reference here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10187.msg350019#msg350019) is the post there:
Basically the premise is that scum would want to vote for each other to create "interactions" and what not in the game itself... This made me think that players with low amount of non-RVS votes would be likely to be town. In that game I was able to pinpoint 6 townies out of the 10 in that game... I haven't tried it in other games, but will do so here...
Keep in mind I am trying to establish RVS votes from the context in the post and when it happened in the game state, hopefully I don't get any of them wrong
1. Archetype - 0 votes
2. yuma - 0 votes
3. XerxesPraelor - 2 votes (both policy votes)
4. xeiron - 4 votes
5. faust - 1 vote
6. Twistedarcher - 1 vote
7. Witherweaver - 1 vote (well 2 from me)
8. shraeye - 0 votes
9. sudgy - lots of votes
10. A Drowned Kernel - 1 vote
11. AndrewisFTTW - lots of votes
12. Jimmmmm - 3 votes
13. ashersky - 4 votes
So not quite as useful? But maybe still useful...? At least it will be good to have as a reference to see if this theory of mine holds out over time or not.
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We need to get going here... Prods on the following please:
1. Archetype - 24+ hours
5. faust - 24+ hours
10. A Drowned Kernel - 24+ hours
12. Jimmmmm - 48+ hours
And another reason to vote for Jimmmm
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We need to get going here... Prods on the following please:
1. Archetype - 24+ hours
5. faust - 24+ hours
10. A Drowned Kernel - 24+ hours
12. Jimmmmm - 48+ hours
And another reason to vote for Jimmmm
Sent.
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Yuma I am confused I have more than 1 vote?
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Yuma I am confused I have more than 1 vote?
ADK voted for you as well, but that was RVS. I didn't see another one beside the Andrew vote on you.
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Yep, this game. Responding to my prod.
I've been putting off catching up with this game. How are we going for time? Less that 24 hours. Okay. Unfortunately I'm just about to leave for work. I should have some time to put into this tonight after I get home from work and tomorrow morning.
Also, don't lynch me, I'm Town.
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Oh I had it backwards, it's votes received not votes cast okay.
What's the correlation you are looking for? More votes = scum, since scum want to generate a little bit of suspicion?
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I still think we should lynch sudgy. Yuma why did you move your vote?
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Oh I had it backwards, it's votes received not votes cast okay.
What's the correlation you are looking for? More votes = scum, since scum want to generate a little bit of suspicion?
yes that is the premise... of course when I originated the idea I was scum and we went into knowing we wanted to generate suspicion on each other... and it backfired horribly... so it might not be the case here, but I think it could be.
But the andrew discussion/wagon has kinda changed the dynamic of the game (yet another reason to hate scumslip wagons)
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I still think we should lynch sudgy. Yuma why did you move your vote?
his attitude about being lynched reminded me a lot of him in LOR2...
resigned, sad that he was being mislynched in a cool RMM game
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I mean I like him more than Andrew, but I don't feel we have fully explored our options here and we still have time if people allow us to have time...
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
I don't know if it is viable... there is only one way to find out? Asking isn't going to help us find out, we would have to try it to see
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
I don't know if it is viable... there is only one way to find out? Asking isn't going to help us find out, we would have to try it to see
I think scum is interested in trying to get a new wagon going when it isn't viable, is my point. So folks deflecting from sudgy/Andrew when they say they have scum reads on them is at least mildly susipicious.
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
Sorry what? I wasn't in Super Mario early. I subbed in and struggled to catch up, and would have struggled just as much to catch up as Town.
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
I don't know if it is viable... there is only one way to find out? Asking isn't going to help us find out, we would have to try it to see
I think scum is interested in trying to get a new wagon going when it isn't viable, is my point. So folks deflecting from sudgy/Andrew when they say they have scum reads on them is at least mildly susipicious.
you have been subtly trying to say I am scum pretty much the whole game...
why is that?
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
Sorry what? I wasn't in Super Mario early. I subbed in and struggled to catch up, and would have struggled just as much to catch up as Town.
Jimmmmm. I modded that game. You were in it since the beginning.
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
Sorry what? I wasn't in Super Mario early. I subbed in and struggled to catch up, and would have struggled just as much to catch up as Town.
Jimmmmm. I modded that game. You were in it since the beginning.
Huh. What am I thinking of then? The Fire and Ice one. Oh, that was Toy Story. Nevermind.
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He is thinking of Toy Story... which he was scum and subbed in and struggled to catch up... I thought the same thing
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I wouldn't go for a Jimmmmm over sudgy or even Andrew. He's null/slight Town for me, so I'd rather lynch someone scummier.
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
I don't know if it is viable... there is only one way to find out? Asking isn't going to help us find out, we would have to try it to see
I think scum is interested in trying to get a new wagon going when it isn't viable, is my point. So folks deflecting from sudgy/Andrew when they say they have scum reads on them is at least mildly susipicious.
you have been subtly trying to say I am scum pretty much the whole game...
why is that?
Is there still support for an ashersky lynch?
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Is a new wagon viable? Sorryimlurkingjimmmmm can be scum jimmmmm. See super Mario early.
I don't know if it is viable... there is only one way to find out? Asking isn't going to help us find out, we would have to try it to see
I think scum is interested in trying to get a new wagon going when it isn't viable, is my point. So folks deflecting from sudgy/Andrew when they say they have scum reads on them is at least mildly susipicious.
you have been subtly trying to say I am scum pretty much the whole game...
why is that?
Because I believe it is true. I have yet to see anything compelling to say Andrew is town, and yet we've had sly moves away from him.
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Jimmmmm is my lynch of choice.
vote: jimmmmm
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Yuma, are you willing to lynch ash?
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Yuma, are you willing to lynch ash?
Is this still your gut/omgus thing?
I love it. I mention you as a lynch candidate for D1 and now you are active and tunneling with no case. That's the absolute definition of omgus.
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What looks scummy to me is that whenever you mention me, it's to cast suspicion on without reasons scum would act the way I'm acting and without a vote that would be visible later.
You didn't respond to this, and I'd like to point out that you're also doing this to some other players as well, and I thought yuma just noticed that.
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What looks scummy to me is that whenever you mention me, it's to cast suspicion on without reasons scum would act the way I'm acting and without a vote that would be visible later.
You didn't respond to this, and I'd like to point out that you're also doing this to some other players as well, and I thought yuma just noticed that.
Dude, go read my case on you then say this again. I reread and referred to your posts, even.
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I posted that after you posted your case on me.
BTW, the only thing I did you said was scummy was that I didn't move my vote onto you fast enough, and I responded to that.
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Woah, what the hell happened here?
Can everyone who was previously on the Andrew wagon and changed now please state why their current vote is a better lynch than Andrew?
Otherwise, I'm lost here. My vote stays on Andrew since that seems the best lynch both because of the odds that he is scum and for information.
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I posted that after you posted your case on me.
BTW, the only thing I did you said was scummy was that I didn't move my vote onto you fast enough, and I responded to that.
Are we talking about the same post?
You are saying I only mention you to cast suspicion without reason. But I posted a case, so clearly it isn't without reason.
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Woah, what the hell happened here?
Can everyone who was previously on the Andrew wagon and changed now please state why their current vote is a better lynch than Andrew?
Otherwise, I'm lost here. My vote stays on Andrew since that seems the best lynch both because of the odds that he is scum and for information.
Ashersky is a better lynch because he is more likely to get mislynches through. Andrew acted scummily at the beginning of the day, but he hasn't done anything recently that screams scum. Ash, on the other hand, far from being aggressive as you guys say is normal for him, has been insinuating that some people are scum without building a strong case or placing his vote. Spreading suspicion is a classic scum tell. He's also been making fun of me instead of arguing that I'm town, which makes me think he knows I'm town but still wants to discredit my reads and make other people think I'm scum.
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Why would I argue you are town?
I am not, nor have I been, making fun of you. Calling out ridiculous behavior is different.
You have come out of nowhere to omgus me. There's nothing to respond to, and you are doing a great job of showing how scummy you are without my help.
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Targeted re-read of Xerxes, who's had a grand total of 7 posts.
1 - votes for faust after the "If I was Mordeth" comment
2 - flavor claims egwene (pronounced Egg Weenee from now on), asks if anyone is going to a meeting
3 - votes for Andrew for his reaction to the scumslip argument, called it "too much self-awareness for town"
4 - expands on Andrew, says it looks like he combed his post to be as towny as possible
5 - fine with his Andrew vote, says Andrew ignored his explanation, slight scum read on ash out of the blue (basically OMGUS for me mentioning he'd be a good yumavig.)
6 - gives a 3-2-1-4 answer, saying that ash scum/Andrew town is most likely. Inconsistent with votes and statements.
7 - edit for clarification, not a separate post
So...not a strong showing from Xerxes here. I find his ranking that ash scum/Andrew town is his top choice in the pairings very odd, given his points on Andrew and his "fine with my vote" comment. Inconsistency isn't always an alignment tell, but it's something that's noticed anyway.
This is your case.
10 posts after that comes this, of which both parts of it, as far as I can tell, haven't been responded to.
I'm not much of a person for cases; you haven't voted me yet, so it's not true OMGUS. What looks scummy to me is that whenever you mention me, it's to cast suspicion on without reasons scum would act the way I'm acting and without a vote that would be visible later.
It's not inconsistent to think that you have a higher than average chance of being scum and that Andrew does too without thinking both of you are scum. I'd still be voting Andrew except that it looks like it's going nowhere and fewer people have noticed your scumminess.
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And if "better at getting mislynched through" is our criteria for lynching, I might as well never sign up for a game. Just because I'm a strong scum player doesn't mean you should lynch me every day. Ask Robz and Yuma and others how that works out.
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Part 1: you say I mention you to cast suspicion without reason. This is in response to my post where I reread you and made a case on you. That's called "reason." So part 1 is a nonsense statement.
Part 2: you say it isn't inconsistent to think that I have a higher chance of being scum after you state a bigger Scumread on Andrew. But it is inconsistent. Here's your statements put another way.
I think Andrew looks around 18 years old. Ashersky looks maybe 16. I think ashersky has a better chance of being 18 than Andrew based on looks.
That is inconsistent, man.
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Woah, what the hell happened here?
Can everyone who was previously on the Andrew wagon and changed now please state why their current vote is a better lynch than Andrew?
Otherwise, I'm lost here. My vote stays on Andrew since that seems the best lynch both because of the odds that he is scum and for information.
I am willing to lynch jimm because of his low profile this game. I am voting for him right now because yuma tried to get a wagon going, witch I support.
I am still willing to lynch Andrew as well, and I wil jump back if others do.
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Woah, what the hell happened here?
Can everyone who was previously on the Andrew wagon and changed now please state why their current vote is a better lynch than Andrew?
Otherwise, I'm lost here. My vote stays on Andrew since that seems the best lynch both because of the odds that he is scum and for information.
Ashersky is a better lynch because he is more likely to get mislynches through. Andrew acted scummily at the beginning of the day, but he hasn't done anything recently that screams scum. Ash, on the other hand, far from being aggressive as you guys say is normal for him, has been insinuating that some people are scum without building a strong case or placing his vote. Spreading suspicion is a classic scum tell. He's also been making fun of me instead of arguing that I'm town, which makes me think he knows I'm town but still wants to discredit my reads and make other people think I'm scum.
Ashersky is good at pushing his cases all the way to a lynch, whether they are correct or mislynches. True. But I do not think he has worse reads than the average guy, so there is no reason we should get more mislynches by keeping Ash around.
Andrew was scummy the first few days, as you said. It is not like he has changed allignment since then, so that is still something worth voting for. I think you should change your vote back to Andrew.
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Okay. So yet again I have put myself in a situation where I have very few solid reads and it'll be a real struggle to really get myself into the game prior to more things happening that I actually pay attention to when they happen. I've repeatedly shown that having stretches of disengagement from the game is not an alignment-tell for me, and while that's not a reputation that I'm comfortable with, it keeps coming back to me - I need to be more consistent with putting effort into games that I've signed up for.
So, here's where I'm at right now. I'm still up for lynching Andrew. I still don't want to lynch yuma or ash. That's about it at this point, other than to say sudgy seems like a potentially easy mislynch. I think I'm still voting for him from way back, so I should Unvote.
I'll try to re-read a couple of people before I go to bed.
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Let me illustrate my point with an analogy. Say townies are given a fair die, while Mafia are given a die with 1/3 chance of 6, 1/6 of 5, and the rest of the digits have the same chance. Whenever someone posts, they roll their die and show it publicly.
Andrew rolled 6, 5, 1, 6, 4, 5, 3, 2. I thought he was scum at the beginning, but now I'm not as sure, while ash rolled 4, 3, 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 6, 6, 5. I changed my mind over time on them, but wasn't inconsistent. I'm still okay with an Andrew lynch, but if he turns up town, I'm definitely going to look at ash.
Vote: Andrew because I need to have my vote on scum who might be lynchable.
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Let me illustrate my point with an analogy. Say townies are given a fair die, while Mafia are given a die with 1/3 chance of 6, 1/6 of 5, and the rest of the digits have the same chance. Whenever someone posts, they roll their die and show it publicly.
Andrew rolled 6, 5, 1, 6, 4, 5, 3, 2. I thought he was scum at the beginning, but now I'm not as sure, while ash rolled 4, 3, 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 6, 6, 5. I changed my mind over time on them, but wasn't inconsistent. I'm still okay with an Andrew lynch, but if he turns up town, I'm definitely going to look at ash.
Vote: Andrew because I need to have my vote on scum who might be lynchable.
Dice Mafia should be opening soon. You should definitely join!
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Traveling all day today, not sure when I'll be able to be post or even check this out.
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Re-read Xerxes. The only thing that stood out to me was this:
I'll go 3-2-1-4.
I'm really confused by the ash-andrew thing. Both of them are scummy, but it seems unlikely that they would attack eachother that hard as townscum.
This post seems odd to me. How can you be so convinced of the scumminess of two different people on Day 1 that the fact that they seem unlikely to be scumpartners "really confuses" you?
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Well I am heading to my mother-in-laws for the day, so won't be around much--unless I get on her computer (shrudder.... I think it still uses dial-up?... does that even exist anymore....? either way it is a painfully, slow process). I am kinda ok with a no-lynch, but I fear that if I leave the Andrew wagon will rise again out of convinience and I won't be around to squash it like it should be squashed.
I don't think I would want to lynch ash. I don't know why he keeps saying I am scum but then stating that I can't be with my role... It just seems weird to me.
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xeiron I'm finding scummy, like he's willing to lynch literally anybody. XP's OMGUS against ash is stirring some warning bells.
People I would like to lynch: sudgy, shraeye (I don't think that's happening though)
People I wouldn't mind lynching: xeiron, XP
I go back and forth on ash, which is what I did all day every day in Super Mario Bros, so yeah, but I don't think I would lynch him today.
I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
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I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
WHY?
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I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
WHY?
Why not?
There have already been stated reasons for voting for him that should have been quite apparent as you caught up.
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I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
WHY?
Why not?
There have already been stated reasons for voting for him that should have been quite apparent as you caught up.
Why not? sudgy is a super-easy mislynch, so I want more reasoning than "well, he placed a strange vote".
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Pretty sure you are dumbing down the case:
Here let me do the work for you...
using bad reasons as a cover for voting (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362010#msg362010)
accused of fake posts and adding no content outside of the Andrew discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362016#msg362016)
Don't have a link, but Andrew saying that he put him at L-1 is scummy.
eager to switch from ADK to Andrew once Andrew was getting more heat, flimsy reasoning and based off a misinterpretation he didn't back off once he realized it (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362303#msg362303)
There might be more, but that is a start. Certainly more than the "Andrew 'scum slipped' and is being defensive about it" argument that you are in favor of.
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that said... I am not sure sudgy is the best lynch as I felt his response to this pressure and votes has been townie and reminiscent of LOR2 when he was mislynched under somewhat similar circumstances
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Woah, what the hell happened here?
Can everyone who was previously on the Andrew wagon and changed now please state why their current vote is a better lynch than Andrew?
Otherwise, I'm lost here. My vote stays on Andrew since that seems the best lynch both because of the odds that he is scum and for information.
I left because everybody else did. If it seems viable again, I'll definitely switch there.
Pretty sure you are dumbing down the case:
Here let me do the work for you...
using bad reasons as a cover for voting (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362010#msg362010)
accused of fake posts and adding no content outside of the Andrew discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362016#msg362016)
Don't have a link, but Andrew saying that he put him at L-1 is scummy.
eager to switch from ADK to Andrew once Andrew was getting more heat, flimsy reasoning and based off a misinterpretation he didn't back off once he realized it (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362303#msg362303)
There might be more, but that is a start. Certainly more than the "Andrew 'scum slipped' and is being defensive about it" argument that you are in favor of.
Whoever reads this, remember my defense. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg362351#msg362351) Not everything is there, but there's quite a bit.
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I still think we should lynch Sudgy.
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I also like Faust's reaction here (by "like" I mean "find pretty scummy")
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I don't want to lynch sudgy, I think that he is more likely town. His L-1 vote reminds me of his voting me in Toy Story Mafia.
I don't want to lynch ashersky. He is a great player, helps the game progress, and there is no reason I can see to lynch him
Andrew seems to not be happening.
So...
Vote: Twistedarcher
He was on both wagons (Andrew and sudgy) with very weak reasoning.
He tries to discredit (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg361038#msg361038)(wasn't it TA who pushed my vote for "discrediting the IC" in that one game?)
He had a town read on sudgy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg360642#msg360642), then when his lynch becomes viable jumps the wagon.
All enough to make him a better lynch than the current wagons, I think.
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That should read "he tries to discredit yuma"
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I also like Faust's reaction here (by "like" I mean "find pretty scummy")
Explain?
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Faust, you saying I initially had a town read on Sudgy and flip flopped it is pretty disingenuous. Yes, I said I thought Sudgy was likelier town due to his wagon position, and solely his wagon position -- I had thought it was likelier that scum would want to stay away from his wagon there. But his reads list, and particular his bogus town read on Ash just set off so many alarm bells for me. I really do think there's a scum in Sudgy/Andrew, I hate that we are moving away from them, and I'd be okay lynching either, but I think Sudgy is more likely than Andrew at this moment.
I didn't try to discredit Yuma, I think he is likely town, but until that is confirmed I do not want him to drive claiming. He's in a position where if he wanted to he could get multiple claims "Hey you, I want to shoot you, what's your role? I will shoot you unless you do!" and it's a bad thing until he's confirmed. Yes, his role is easily confirmable, but it's not confirmed yet. I am wary of that, as should everyone else, but obviously I don't want to lynch him.
Saying I was on both wagons "with very weak reasoning" without pulling up any links, how am I supposed to defend that?
You have been advocating Andrew, but are moving away because it's not viable, and then move to someone with no votes 7 hours before deadline? Please. We need people to stop making new wagons or we will not get a lynch through ever.
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and seriously guys, why are we starting new wagon after new wagon, we need to get a lynch through and none of this is working towards it. we are going to end up no-lynching today.
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I think sudgy is L-2 right? And I already said I'd put him at L-1 or hammer. So I think we're decided on our lynch for today.
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I think sudgy is L-2 right? And I already said I'd put him at L-1 or hammer. So I think we're decided on our lynch for today.
I'm at L-3.
Also, I don't think we're going to be able to get an alternate lynch in, so Vote: AndrewisFTTW again.
Also, random question, what is FTTW?
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Oh I think that's my fault, I was tempted by Xeiron's scumminess. Damnit, he's just so scummy. Ahhh!!!
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I know I just said let's focus on sudgy but seriously... can we lynch Xeiron?
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Also, random question, what is FTTW?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.T.T.W.
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Vote Count 1.12:
sudgy (3): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (2): XerxesPraelor, sudgy
ashersky (2):, shraeye, Witherweaver
xeiron (1): AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmm (2): yuma, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Not voting (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in about 6 hours). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.)
There were a lot of votes since the last vote count. Everyone please double-check that your vote is in the correct place.
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Does that link work? Because it's not showing me anything. It means Faster Than the World, it's an album by H2o.
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This vote count is a joke guys...come on. We can do better than this. We should be lynching Andrew and/or Sudgy.
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and seriously guys, why are we starting new wagon after new wagon, we need to get a lynch through and none of this is working towards it. we are going to end up no-lynching today.
Is not lynching something we have to avoid?
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I mean as people have said a no-lynch in RMM isn't the worst, but I would much prefer to get one through. Or else we just turn this whole D1 into a chase of moving from place to place to place without learning anything. If we don't get a lynch this D1 becomes much less useful. Lynches make scum make choices, lots of wagons sitting at 2-3 votes means that scum have no risk and no inertia to move votes anywhere.
It's not the end of the world but I would highly prefer actually lynching someone today
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Just like the Andrew wagon, the Sudgy wagon just died, not because of actual defenses but because people got sidetracked elsewhere...as Ash said...this is sometimes characteristic of scum wagons. The wagon doesn't get to lynch and then it just falls apart.
I didn't see either the Andrew or Sudgy lynch fall apart because of good reasons but because "hey let's lynch this person instead"...I think we are going in circles. I would like to lynch Sudgy then Andrew but I think both of them give us a decent chance at hitting scum....I do not feel they were both wagons on town, I didn't feel that before, and the way they fell apart just reinforces that for me.
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I mean as people have said a no-lynch in RMM isn't the worst, but I would much prefer to get one through. Or else we just turn this whole D1 into a chase of moving from place to place to place without learning anything. If we don't get a lynch this D1 becomes much less useful. Lynches make scum make choices, lots of wagons sitting at 2-3 votes means that scum have no risk and no inertia to move votes anywhere.
It's not the end of the world but I would highly prefer actually lynching someone today
My choices are Ash and Andrewis.
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Then you should vote Andrew..he is more viable than Ash I believe. I don't see Ash getting to 7 votes, he is farther away and several people have said they wouldn't vote him. (I won't vote him personally)
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Alright alright.
vote: sudgy
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Like seriously guys...yes we all want to lynch our #1 scum read D1...but it's not possible for everyone to do this. It seems like everyone is sitting on their #1 read...and surprise...we are nowhere. We need to compromise here to get a lynch through, that's how it works D1
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Then you should vote Andrew..he is more viable than Ash I believe. I don't see Ash getting to 7 votes, he is farther away and several people have said they wouldn't vote him. (I won't vote him personally)
Okay, I'm back to Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
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xeiron I'm finding scummy, like he's willing to lynch literally anybody. XP's OMGUS against ash is stirring some warning bells.
I understand that you might get the impression like I'm willing to lynch anybody if you are talking from memory. However, if you do reread my posts, you will see that I have been talking about lynching jimmmmm, andrew, jiimmmmm, andrew, andrew and jimmmmm. I will insist that those two is not literally everybody. Also, among notable lynch candidates, I am against both Sudgy and Ashersky.
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Want to lynch: Sudgy, Andrew, Xeiron
Would lynch: Jimmm, Faust, Arch, WW, ADK
Won't lynch: Xerxes, Shraeye, Ash, Yuma
Everyone should make one of these lists, it will help us decide consensus.
PPE: Thank you Andrew and WW. Sorry to be semi-lecturing you guys but we need to compromise getting lynches through, and that means moving votes to useful places. If it turns out 7 people have Xeiron or Ash or someone on their "want to lynch" lists we can of course consider it, but I imagine it's too late for that, and we have better odds at Andrew/Sudgy where it has already been demonstrated that there's the votes there.
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Back to vote: AndrewisFTTW as that is the larger wagon.
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That is 4 on Sudgy and 4 on Andrew.
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Vote Count 1.13:
sudgy (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Not voting (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in about 6 hours). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.)
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Want to lynch: Sudgy, Andrew, Xeiron
Would lynch: Jimmm, Faust, Arch, WW, ADK
Won't lynch: Xerxes, Shraeye, Ash, Yuma
Everyone should make one of these lists, it will help us decide consensus.
PPE: Thank you Andrew and WW. Sorry to be semi-lecturing you guys but we need to compromise getting lynches through, and that means moving votes to useful places. If it turns out 7 people have Xeiron or Ash or someone on their "want to lynch" lists we can of course consider it, but I imagine it's too late for that, and we have better odds at Andrew/Sudgy where it has already been demonstrated that there's the votes there.
I agree that everyone should make such a list:
Mine is:
Want to lynch: Andrew, jimmmmm
Would lynch: Archetype, WW, ADK, Shraeye
Won't lynch: Xerxes, TA, Ash, Yuma, Sudgy, Faust
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So we only have a few hours? And then what, it goes to night with no lynch?
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Around until deadline, will hammer when needed.
Going to catch up and will do a popsquiz.
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That is 4 on Sudgy and 4 on Andrew.
TA, would you switch to Andrew if needed for a lynch?
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I want to lynch Andrew, I could easily be brought into lynching pretty much any lurker (which includes xeiron, who would be my second lynch), and I don't want to lynch yuma or ash. Anybody else I would only do as a last resort (or if a sudden good case got brought up on them).
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Faust, Yuma, and shraeye are directly contributing to this stall out.
Yuma's seems at least somewhat purposeful, as he's given Andrew IC status and doesn't mind a NK lynch.
Faust is a bit out there on his thinking, don't think he's maliciously stalling.
Shraeye disappeared forever ago.
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As a reminder (though you all seem fairly aware):
5. If there is no majority lynch by deadline, it will be a no lynch.
It is 3 hours to deadline. Vote count remains the same.
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That is 4 on Sudgy and 4 on Andrew.
TA, would you switch to Andrew if needed for a lynch?
Absolutely.
I'm in kinda a weird position actually, I am definitely thinking it's likely there's 1, and exactly 1 scum among Sudgy-Andrew. Given that they've been the major opposing wagons, I would be shocked if there's 2 scum there. It's definitely possible they are both town, but I really do think there's a scum in there, the movement away from both wagons onto others is sketchy to me (obviously there's a lot of town doing this, since like 6-8 people or something have been exploring other options, but there's a possibility it's scum trying to move the wagons elsewhere as well, trying to see what will stick.)
I think Sudgy is more likely than Andrew, but I think there's a high enough chance Andrew is scum and Sudgy is town. It's weird because part of me is saying that "there's likely a scum there, so either is a fine lynch" and a part of me that's saying "Sudgy is scummier than Andrew, and they can't both be scum, so Andrew should be off the table today", but ultimately I'm not sold enough on Sudgy > Andrew to take Andrew off the table. So I will definitely prefer Sudgy but I'd settle for Andrew basically.
(Probably I'm wrong, and they are both town, I am horrible at reading people lately)
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If both TA and Ash votes for Andrew, that is still just {L-1}
It would be really nice if Faust, Yuma, shraeye or jimmmmm could show up and move their vote to a useful place.
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That is 4 on Sudgy and 4 on Andrew.
TA, would you switch to Andrew if needed for a lynch?
Absolutely.
I'm in kinda a weird position actually, I am definitely thinking it's likely there's 1, and exactly 1 scum among Sudgy-Andrew. Given that they've been the major opposing wagons, I would be shocked if there's 2 scum there. It's definitely possible they are both town, but I really do think there's a scum in there, the movement away from both wagons onto others is sketchy to me (obviously there's a lot of town doing this, since like 6-8 people or something have been exploring other options, but there's a possibility it's scum trying to move the wagons elsewhere as well, trying to see what will stick.)
I think Sudgy is more likely than Andrew, but I think there's a high enough chance Andrew is scum and Sudgy is town. It's weird because part of me is saying that "there's likely a scum there, so either is a fine lynch" and a part of me that's saying "Sudgy is scummier than Andrew, and they can't both be scum, so Andrew should be off the table today", but ultimately I'm not sold enough on Sudgy > Andrew to take Andrew off the table. So I will definitely prefer Sudgy but I'd settle for Andrew basically.
(Probably I'm wrong, and they are both town, I am horrible at reading people lately)
I'm basically where you are, except I think Andrew > Sudgy as far as scum chances go.
Won't lynch because townread: TA, arch
Won't lynch because confirmable, crazy claim: yuma
Null, probably would, but might not lynch: xeiron, ADK, Faust
Would lynch: xerxespraelor, Jimmmmm, witherweaver
Would absolutely lynch: sudgy
Prefer to lynch: Andrew, shraeye
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If both TA and Ash votes for Andrew, that is still just {L-1}
It would be really nice if Faust, Yuma, shraeye or jimmmmm could show up and move their vote to a useful place.
Correct.
They are absolutely stalling the game and forcing a no lynch, which is bad. We're at a 30-page D1. 30 pages. This is a behemoth re-read and with no flip at the end, we have no data point to compare anything to. Unacceptable.
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Ash why aren't you voting?
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Ash why aren't you voting?
So I can hammer.
You can consider me voting Andrew, then sudgy.
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I don't get your obsession with it, I think you should vote, but whatever :P
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I don't get your obsession with it, I think you should vote, but whatever :P
My obsession is mostly with being the statistical leader in something. I think it comes from my love of baseball, to be honest.
Also, lots of people are scared to hammer, so it helps to know someone is willing.
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Vote Count 1.13:
sudgy (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Not voting (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in about 6 hours). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.)
No change since this count, and no one not voting for andrew/sudgy has posted since.
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I leave now, and will not come back before deadline. My vote on Andrew is where I want it to be.
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If both TA and Ash votes for Andrew, that is still just {L-1}
It would be really nice if Faust, Yuma, shraeye or jimmmmm could show up and move their vote to a useful place.
I'm here and will vote before deadline.
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How do you feel about Andrew or sudgy, Jimmmm?
We've got under 2 hours.
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well I am back, how's it going?
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How do you feel about Andrew or sudgy, Jimmmm?
We've got under 2 hours.
I'll probably vote for Andrew, but will re-read sudgy first.
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well I am back, how's it going?
Andrew or Sudgy, given how you feel about andrew, vote sudgy!
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This vote count is a joke guys...come on. We can do better than this. We should be lynching Andrew and/or Sudgy.
I don't like Andrew AT ALL!
And tell me... does sudgy remind you of sudgy in LOR2. You were in that game I remember... It is eerily similar....
I see no reason why we couldn't have gone for another wagon... maybe now it is too late, but we had time to do so but people kept trying to stop that from happening which makes me think that mafia is fine lynching both!
Let's lynch faust! vote: faust or Jimmmm or WW
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If both TA and Ash votes for Andrew, that is still just {L-1}
It would be really nice if Faust, Yuma, shraeye or jimmmmm could show up and move their vote to a useful place.
I won't lynch someone for info when I think they are very likely to be town. Never have, never will... You want a lynch to happen you move your vote to somewhere that I agree with. This isn't negotiable for me. I suggest if you have a problem with my vote that you move yours to make mine more useful
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I don't know, it doesn't stick out to me? He clearly doesn't want to get lynched here and I don't think he is resigned to it at all....
There was not enough activity to go for another wagon, look at that last vote count, that's a no lynch waiting to happen given the level of activity. I want a lynch today
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Yuma when did you switch from a scum read to a town read on Sudgy?
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There was not enough activity to go for another wagon, look at that last vote count, that's a no lynch waiting to happen given the level of activity. I want a lynch today
I dont' believe that... There are enough of us here to get a lynch through. Lynch one of the players who isn't here and hasn't been helpful... Hey look that's faust!
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I have no reason to believe that Faust is anymore more likely scum than a random lynch..I have a reason to believe that Sudgy is more likely scum. I will not be voting Faust
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Yuma when did you switch from a scum read to a town read on Sudgy?
When I unvoted him after seeing his response and remembering LOR2. I still think he has done some scummy stuff--hence why I outlined it for faust when he was all like "nothing there dudes!"--but his reaction to me is exactly the same as LOR2. We mislynched him there and I try to learn from my mistakes in this game instead of repeating them over and over again.
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I have no reason to believe that Faust is anymore more likely scum than a random lynch..I have a reason to believe that Sudgy is more likely scum. I will not be voting Faust
Ok... so you are only going to vote for andrew or sudgy? If so then I guess our conversation is over and you are rising in my scum estimation...
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At this point yes. They are my top two scum reads and both are viable.
You seem to not care if we get a lynch through at this point, you are just discrediting the only two viable wagons at this point.
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Yuma's seems at least somewhat purposeful, as he's given Andrew IC status and doesn't mind a NK lynch.
SCUMSLIP!!!! ASH IS OBVIOUSLY SCUM CAUSE HE CALLED A NO LYNCH A NO KILL LYNCH!!! SCUM ONLY THINKS OF NOT KILLING!!!!!
(I jest)
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At this point yes. They are my top two scum reads and both are viable.
You seem to not care if we get a lynch through at this point, you are just discrediting the only two viable wagons at this point.
This.
There are clearly others I would vote for, but we don't have the numbers or time to get them through.
I think we have like 4 people here, right? TA, me, yuma, and Jimmmmm. Not enough to get a lynch through on anyone.
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At this point yes. They are my top two scum reads and both are viable.
You seem to not care if we get a lynch through at this point, you are just discrediting the only two viable wagons at this point.
Well I guess that is fair if they are both scum reads, I can't fault you for that I suppose.
I do care if we get a lynch! I would love a lynch! But I am not going to actively support a lynch on someone I see as town when I feel there is still time to get a lynch elsewhere. As for discrediting... funny word usage if you ask me...
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Yuma's seems at least somewhat purposeful, as he's given Andrew IC status and doesn't mind a NK lynch.
SCUMSLIP!!!! ASH IS OBVIOUSLY SCUM CAUSE HE CALLED A NO LYNCH A NO KILL LYNCH!!! SCUM ONLY THINKS OF NOT KILLING!!!!!
No, YOU SCUMSLIPPED! NK means NIGHT KILL, not NO KILL. Only scum thinks of NO KILL! Ha!
I re-jest.
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Yuma do you still prefer Sudgy over Andrew? cause I do. If you are gonna not be voting either the likelihood I will need to switch to Andrew increases and I'd rather lynch Sudgy.
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Well then should I just day-vig one of the players not currently around and hasn't been around?
I mean... we have had time to get a lynch... 10 days if I remember right. I have been trying to get people to look elsewhere the entire game it feels like, so maybe we need to go back and see who has tried to stop looking elsewhere?
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Yuma do you still prefer Sudgy over Andrew? cause I do. If you are gonna not be voting either the likelihood I will need to switch to Andrew increases and I'd rather lynch Sudgy.
This kinda sounds like blackmail... "either you vote sudgy or I will vote Andrew who I know you really don't want lynched!!!"
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At this point yes. They are my top two scum reads and both are viable.
You seem to not care if we get a lynch through at this point, you are just discrediting the only two viable wagons at this point.
Well I guess that is fair if they are both scum reads, I can't fault you for that I suppose.
I do care if we get a lynch! I would love a lynch! But I am not going to actively support a lynch on someone I see as town when I feel there is still time to get a lynch elsewhere. As for discrediting... funny word usage if you ask me...
The bolded line above is completely a fair and good stance to take.
The issue is, I don't think there is time to get a lynch elsewhere. Some of us at least have scum reads on one or both of the viable wagons. These are wagons that grew then stalled out and then remained stalled until deadline. That means something.
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Who would that be? Faust? He was around earlier? Shraeye? He hasn't been around.
I mean it's your day-vig so do what you think is best, but I wouldn't advise shooting someone not here without time to react.
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Yuma do you still prefer Sudgy over Andrew? cause I do. If you are gonna not be voting either the likelihood I will need to switch to Andrew increases and I'd rather lynch Sudgy.
This kinda sounds like blackmail... "either you vote sudgy or I will vote Andrew who I know you really don't want lynched!!!"
I mean, if you don't vote Sudgy, the likelihood of me switching to Andrew increases, so yeah?
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Well then should I just day-vig one of the players not currently around and hasn't been around?
I mean... we have had time to get a lynch... 10 days if I remember right. I have been trying to get people to look elsewhere the entire game it feels like, so maybe we need to go back and see who has tried to stop looking elsewhere?
Are you offering your dayvig in exchange for a no lynch? That's...interesting.
It just lets everyone off the hook for D1, though. I don't like that.
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Alright fine... vote: sudgy
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I am going to be off again, might be back, but might not...
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Well then should I just day-vig one of the players not currently around and hasn't been around?
I mean... we have had time to get a lynch... 10 days if I remember right. I have been trying to get people to look elsewhere the entire game it feels like, so maybe we need to go back and see who has tried to stop looking elsewhere?
I am probably the first person you will find if you look at that...Ash too...but I do agree with the sentiment that the stalled wagons are more likely to be scum.
The thing is the wagons fell apart not for good reasons IMO but because others just moved elsewhere...I don't know if it's cause people were bored or what but there were not really any major defenses for either player...yet people moved their votes....
I don't think there has been any real "direction" in another wagon, just more of "Hey, something scummy, let's vote here!" on like 6 different players. People have been moving votes but no one has really been "driving" any other wagon so that let to today's vote count where no one had more than 3 votes.
I am personally more interested in lynching the wagons we have than other ones...cause it seems those wagons are being formed just for the heck of it honestly...like "Hey, we have 3 days left, let's see if this sticks!"....no one has been super driving wagons and it means that nothing outside Andrew/Sudgy stuck.
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So that's 5 on sudgy, 4 on Andrew.
Jimmmmm, sounded more likely to vote Andrew. We've got 90 minutes.
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Faust is probably asleep already...no idea if Shraeye will get back on...
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It looks like we may end up going for whomever of Sudgy/Andrew Jimmmmm lands on if Shraeye doesn't show up.
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I'm on my phone now and haven't read the last bunch of exchanges. I have a volleyball game soon so I won't be on for the deadline.
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here; catching up on last 150 posts.
Don't want Andrew.
Do want ash or faust. High suspicion there. I'm suspicious of ash's arguments for pulling people back to andrew ("it's a suspiciously stalling wagon; must be scum!"). I think that argument resonates well, but isn't necessarily true.
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I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
WHY?
Why not?
There have already been stated reasons for voting for him that should have been quite apparent as you caught up.
Why not? sudgy is a super-easy mislynch, so I want more reasoning than "well, he placed a strange vote".
this almost makes me want to add sudgy to the list; I'll ahve to look more at their interactions before committing to that based on this one post.
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That should read "he tries to discredit yuma"
Isn't ash also discrediting yuma? but nonetheless you only have great things to say about ash. suspicious.
I don't want to lynch ashersky. He is a great player, helps the game progress, and there is no reason I can see to lynch him
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and seriously guys, why are we starting new wagon after new wagon, we need to get a lynch through and none of this is working towards it. we are going to end up no-lynching today.
Is not lynching something we have to avoid?
No, but everybody will say it is. they're wrong though.
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If both TA and Ash votes for Andrew, that is still just {L-1}
It would be really nice if Faust, Yuma, shraeye or jimmmmm could show up and move their vote to a useful place.
my vote IS in a useful place. i think ash is highly likely to be scum.
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This vote count is a joke guys...come on. We can do better than this. We should be lynching Andrew and/or Sudgy.
I don't like Andrew AT ALL!
And tell me... does sudgy remind you of sudgy in LOR2. You were in that game I remember... It is eerily similar....
I see no reason why we couldn't have gone for another wagon... maybe now it is too late, but we had time to do so but people kept trying to stop that from happening which makes me think that mafia is fine lynching both!
Let's lynch faust! vote: faust or Jimmmm or WW
I would definitely lynch faust as well.
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I'll be around via phone, but I think that people should DEFINITELY not vote just to get a lynch. That's not the smart play here, even if ash tells you it is.
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So are you not gonna vote Sudgy or Andrew?
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shraeye, I know you've had a nice string of good games, but you can't just play the "I'm shraeye, I'm god, do what I say" card over and over. It's condescending and rude, and it doesn't help anyone.
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Less than an hour to go. We need you to vote for a lynch, Jim
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I think it is helpful to question overused and abusable mantras. I don't think 'come on guys we gotta lynch someone, and stalled wagons mean Andrew is guilty' is completely accurate, and I'm currently accusing you of abusing it.
People can choose to agree or disagree, its clear that you disagree.
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Yes, I disagree, I want a lynch today, even discounting that Andrew and Sudgy are both on my "want to lynch" list. Not only do I feel that lynching someone is better, it's also more fun!
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I think it is helpful to question overused and abusable mantras. I don't think 'come on guys we gotta lynch someone, and stalled wagons mean Andrew is guilty' is completely accurate, and I'm currently accusing you of abusing it.
People can choose to agree or disagree, its clear that you disagree.
Disagreeing on the virtues of no lynch and whether stalled wagons implicate anything in regards to a player's alignment are fine; it doesn't make either side of the argument scum. Those are actual theory/strategy/playstyle beliefs that transcend games and alignments. It could just as easily be its own thead.
You thinking no lynch is fine isn't scummy. I think it's wrong, but has nothing to do with your alignment. Me thinking no lynch is not fine is the same thing. However, scum prefers no lynch if the wagon is on scum, right? Given I think at least one wagon is on scum, people pushing no lynch seem scummy to me, because it could be partner protection.
You don't even give a reason for your "no lynch is awesomesauce" argument.
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Honestly I agree with you shraeye, but I feel that these guys are holding over mine and your head the threat of lynching andrew if we don't vote sudgy.
That I guess if enough, I don't like it, but I would rather lynch someone I am kinda sure about than someone I am very sure about....
It sucks, but this is the sitaution we are in because people werne't willing to do anything about it earlier. If you had come in maybe say yesterday, or even a few hours ago... with the willingness ot vote faust... we could do something we might.
But now... it is them voting Andrew unless we do something to stop it....
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Jimmmmm, I know you are around, you've been posting elsewhere.
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Honestly I agree with you shraeye, but I feel that these guys are holding over mine and your head the threat of lynching andrew if we don't vote sudgy.
That I guess if enough, I don't like it, but I would rather lynch someone I am kinda sure about than someone I am very sure about....
It sucks, but this is the sitaution we are in because people werne't willing to do anything about it earlier. If you had come in maybe say yesterday, or even a few hours ago... with the willingness ot vote faust... we could do something we might.
But now... it is them voting Andrew unless we do something to stop it....
Even if we vote Andrew, that's only L-1, and you get your No Lynch wish.
Jimmmmm needs to vote somewhere.
Jorbles, can we get an updated official vote count?
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Can we all pause and take note of the people who aren't around right now. I am
pretty positively sure there is scum there...
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It's more fun is definitely a reason I can't fight.
But imagine this. We mislynch and scum night kills...2 town gone. This is equivalent to nolynch, nightkill x2, except in the second case, any potential investigative roles now have 2 pieces of info.
The corect discussion is 'is my read so strong that it's worth 1/2 of an investigation per PR'?
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Vote Count 1.13:
sudgy (5): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Not voting (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Here's the latest.
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Honestly I agree with you shraeye, but I feel that these guys are holding over mine and your head the threat of lynching andrew if we don't vote sudgy.
That I guess if enough, I don't like it, but I would rather lynch someone I am kinda sure about than someone I am very sure about....
It sucks, but this is the sitaution we are in because people werne't willing to do anything about it earlier. If you had come in maybe say yesterday, or even a few hours ago... with the willingness ot vote faust... we could do something we might.
But now... it is them voting Andrew unless we do something to stop it....
I am fine lynching either one of them. They are both scum reads for me. So yes I am willing to do everything I can to lynch them. And I'd probably be fine lynching them as long as they weren't town reads.
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It's more fun is definitely a reason I can't fight.
But imagine this. We mislynch and scum night kills...2 town gone. This is equivalent to nolynch, nightkill x2, except in the second case, any potential investigative roles now have 2 pieces of info.
The corect discussion is 'is my read so strong that it's worth 1/2 of an investigation per PR'?
They are both scum reads, so yes.
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It's more fun is definitely a reason I can't fight.
But imagine this. We mislynch and scum night kills...2 town gone. This is equivalent to nolynch, nightkill x2, except in the second case, any potential investigative roles now have 2 pieces of info.
The corect discussion is 'is my read so strong that it's worth 1/2 of an investigation per PR'?
How do you get nightkill x2, though?
In the mislynch scenario, everyone has 2 pieces of information on D2.
In the no lynch scenario, everyone has 1 piece of information on D2.
By your own argument, potential investigative roles have LESS information if we no lynch. They won't know if people were voting for a mislynch or a scum lynch, for example. D1 scum lynches really, really help us, and our PRs.
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Also,I don't get what you're saying, whether we lynch or no lynch shouldn't have an impact on the amount of night kills?
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Vote Count 1.14:
sudgy (5): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma (L-2)
AndrewisFTTW (4): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Not voting (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in very soon!). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.)
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I don't see a particular reason to lynch sudgy. Vote: Andrew
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I was talking about (nolynch+night kill)*2. Phone posting makes it painful to type a lot.
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vote: andrew
We don't have the votes for sudgy, TA. Andrew is my preferred lynch of the two anyway. Up to you.
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I was talking about (nolynch+night kill)*2. Phone posting makes it painful to type a lot.
You are arguing that we should no lynch on D1 and D2?
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We don't have the votes for sudgy, TA. Andrew is my preferred lynch of the two anyway. Up to you.
Yes we do. I'll vote for sudgy to get a lynch through.
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Which is why 2 nolynches are worth 1 result. And 1 nolynch worth half a result
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Well I'll vote Andrew. But I also do want to see if Jimmmm is really willing to vote Sudgy, don't you?
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Well I'll vote Andrew. But I also do want to see if Jimmmm is really willing to vote Sudgy, don't you?
What do you mean?
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next person to vote for andrew risks being dayvigged....
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Well I'll vote Andrew. But I also do want to see if Jimmmm is really willing to vote Sudgy, don't you?
If he switches, that puts sudgy at L-1 and I need to hammer. If he doesn't, you need to switch and hammer.
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So you're telling me my choices are between no lynching and getting day-vigged, Yuma?
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actually next vote is a lynch...
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Who's blackmailing now?
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next person to vote for andrew risks being dayvigged....
Ha! Now that's blackmail.
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I am blackmailing completely and totally... except that I am pretty much guaranteed to be town so my motives are pretty pure...
and I am saying get people to vote for sudgy....
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So you're telling me my choices are between no lynching and getting day-vigged, Yuma?
Or he's saying you better convince Jimmmmm to switch.
The most hilarious thing will be if yuma just full on fakeclaimed day vig and he's just messing with us.
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you guys blackmailed me into this situation so I have no problem pulling out the stops in return.
If you don't like it you should have considered other options before....
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I am blackmailing completely and totally... except that I am pretty much guaranteed to be town so my motives are pretty pure...
and I am saying get people to vote for sudgy....
Why are you so willing to tie yourself to Andrew on this? That's just a huge risk for you.
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yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
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yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
And by TA I mean Andrew.
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Vote Count 1.15:
sudgy (5): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma
AndrewisFTTW (6): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron, Jimmmmm, ashersky (L-1)
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends April 3 at 8 PM forum time (that's in very soon!). (mail-mi won't be home at that time, but no more votes will be accepted after that time. Jorbles WILL be around and will post the flip, but no flavour.)
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yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
And by TA I mean Andrew.
yuma doesn't want Andrew to die. He might vig sudgy in exchange for a no lynch.
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yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
And by TA I mean Andrew.
yeah.... tell me to day-vig my strongest town read... that is a smart move...
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Hey guys I'm here. I've been (and will be for some time) driving down to Orlando from DC (that's 13 hours by the way).
Ash's and TA's recent posts are suspicious to me, but I understand that will have to wait for some other time. It looks like it's either me or sudgy at this point except that I'm town. I've been defending myself all game, sometimes aggressively but never unwarranted in my opinion. There have been a lot of people saying I overreacted to this or that but at the time I felt the urgency of defending myself. I had so many people suspecting me and voting me so fast that I thought if I didn't address everything right away, everything would worse. I still don't see how this is scummy but I'm not going to sit here and argue what is and what isn't scummy anymore.
Come on guys, doesn't anybody else see how ridiculously scummy Xeiron is? I'm not saying lynch him today, but he's on my wagon and I would have to think any wagon he commits to is a mislynch, which is what my wagon is.
Anyway, that's about all I have to say about that. Vote sudgy.
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it is funny all of my scum reads are on the andrew wagon+faust
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yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
And by TA I mean Andrew.
yeah.... tell me to day-vig my strongest town read... that is a smart move...
Thanks. :)
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I was gonna say he can vig Sudgy instead, but that's stupid when we can just lynch Sudgyand he can save his shot
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
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Jimmmmm and Ash....you guys should switch.
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I was gonna say he can vig Sudgy instead, but that's stupid when we can just lynch Sudgyand he can save his shot
Well yeah. On the other hand his claim will be proven.
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
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we have enough for sudgy here don't we if jimm and ash move?
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Yes we do
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
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I was gonna say he can vig Sudgy instead, but that's stupid when we can just lynch Sudgyand he can save his shot
Well yeah. On the other hand his claim will be proven.
How do you know he's X-shot? He hasn't claimed as such. I think the bigger fear for him is that he vigs sudgy and we lynch Andrew anyway.
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we have enough for sudgy here don't we if jimm and ash move?
Correct.
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I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
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I will clearly move to avoid a no lynch. Would still need shraeye or Jimmmmm to move.
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I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
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Hammer it Jimmmm
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Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
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sorry sudgy, dying in a RMM game is just no fun....
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Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
????? Why are you asking this....
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Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
Why would he tell us?
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Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
Why would he tell us?
Not only that, DON'T tell us.
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
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Ok.
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
Credibility. Also, catch up.
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Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
????? Why are you asking this....
I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
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I will be back on a computer about 5 minutes after deadline. Remember no votes timestamped after 8:00:00 pm forum time will be counted.
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
Credibility. Also, catch up.
His claim was 100% credible before he said that. Also I'm phone posting while scoring a girls softball game. So no to the catching up.
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I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
Credibility. Also, catch up.
His claim was 100% credible before he said that. Also I'm phone posting while scoring a girls softball game. So no to the catching up.
Somebody out of context this.
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Jimmmmm, you have 9 minutes to hammer.
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Jimmmmm, you have 9 minutes to hammer.
I know.
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Any thoughts sudgy?
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Jimm... how am I supposed to do that? I feel like I've said too much already.
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Jimm... how am I supposed to do that? I feel like I've said too much already.
I don't know, it's your claim.
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Ok well I'm done claiming.
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WHY NO HAMMER?
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actually hammer... don't hammer... what do I care...
Just dont' switch to andrew
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WHY NO HAMMER?
Relax, there's plenty of time. sudgy's been viewing the thread for a while so I'd like to hear from him if possible.
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something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
This is a good point that I didn't think of.
Although it's a tough one to use, given it's easily verifiable (if he lies) since he won't always know if he was targeted and therefore if his "target" should have been "jailkept." I don't know how much thought would have gone into a provided fakeclaim, though.
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I'm catching up (probably too late now), but I realized that my claim might be confirmable. I'm an Inventor (I think I saw I'm at L-1).
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I'm catching up (probably too late now), but I realized that my claim might be confirmable. I'm an Inventor (I think I saw I'm at L-1).
How could it be confirmed?
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You're just about to be hammered.
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If we had time (we don't), someone could figure out if these claims match the flavor.
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Any super compelling reasons for me not to hammer, sudgy?
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Any super compelling reasons for me not to hammer, sudgy?
I can give an invention and they could confirm it.
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30 sec do it
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Sorry sudgy, too late. I think a lynch is better than no-lynch.
Vote: sudgy
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(quick non-thought-out-posts because of two minutes left)
PPE: Never mind.
:'(
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Too late.
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Oh, Jimmmmm did vote.
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Oh, Jimmmmm did vote.
I told you I would.
I did panic a bit with the PPEs though...
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I didn't realize how close it was to deadline while I was catching up, then it was five minutes left. Make sure to look at Andrew.
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Cool, was worried you weren't gonna hammer.
Reads Sudgy if you're town?
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I didn't realize how close it was to deadline while I was catching up, then it was five minutes left. Make sure to look at Andrew.
Make sure to look at everyone not here! Andrew is town, that is pretty darn obvious...
faust, ww, adk, arch among others
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Thread locked!
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Vote Count 1.FINAL:
sudgy (7): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
The sun was about to set on the horizon. "Hurry!" several persons at the meeting shouted. "We have to lynch before nightfall!"
"I propose AndrewisFTTW!" one shouted, while another states "Let's lynch ashersky!"
The consensus swapped back and forth, but eventually, the majority of the group settled on sudgy. "Bring him here," mail-mi said. Sudgy walked up the short hill to mail-mi. "Now, let me just get the Oath Rod and..." mail-mi turned around, then, looking panicked, started scanning the ground. After searching, he looked back at the crowd with a worried look on his face. "The Oath Rod is gone!"
Quickly, everyone picked up the search. All but two, that is. Jimmmm turned to ashersky. "It's too late! We haven't time to find the Oath Rod!" And, while sudgy wasn't looking, Jimmmm pulled a sword out of his sheath and stabbed it through the body of sudgy.
Just as he wiped off his sword, and put it back, faust came out of the woods. "I found it! The Forsaken must have..." and then he saw sudgy.
"Quickly, quickly!" mail-mi said. "Bring it here!" Faust rushed up to mail-mi and handed him the oath rod. Mail-mi put it into sudgy's hand and concentrated for a second. The Oath Rod started to glow.
"I swear I will not say any word that is not true," sudgy coughed weakly. "I am Elayne Trankand, Daughter-Heir of Andor. And I am not a darkfrend." And with that, sudgy breathed her last breath and lay still.
sudgy has been lynched. He was the Light-aligned Elayne Trankand, a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor).
You all have 48 hours of night. All players should send a PM to myself and mail-mi during night saying what, if any, action they will be taking, or just send an "I'm paying attention" note if you don't have an action.
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Green means town-aligned.
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I'm going to be opening the thread around 7 pm FT tonight.
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I'm going to be opening the thread around 7 pm FT tonight.
Oh oops I messed up the time-change from mine to FT. I meant around 11--which is right now.
thread unlock will happen soon, no more night actions accepted.
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Mail-mi came out of his tent just as the sun began to crest over the horizon. All around the meeting/campsite, attendees were waking up, stretching, getting ready, getting out of tents. Soon, all were gathered in the middle of the clearing, waiting for the days meeting to begin.
All but two, that was.
The others waited for what seemed like ages for them to finish getting ready, and soon Archetype was to impatient to wait anymore. He went to go check on shraeye, and was in the tent for only a moment before he came rushing out. "Shraeye is dead!" he called. "Check faust's tent!
AndrewisFTTW ran over to faust's tent and came out with a crestfallen look on his face. Sure enough, faust was dead too.
As they gathered back together, mail-mi cleared his throat. "Friends, we must catch the ones who committed these crimes. We will not let these good people die in vain.
shraeye has been killed. He was Light-aligned Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.
faust has been killed. He was Light-aligned Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw, a Viewer (Voyeur).
Day 2 Start!
Thread Unlocked!
Vote Count 1.0:
Not Voting (10): Archetype, yuma, XerxesPraelor, xeiron, Twistedarcher, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, ashersky
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
You are acting like we knew Sudgy was town and decided to lynch him anyways....I thought there was a fairly decent chance he was scum.
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
You are acting like we knew Sudgy was town and decided to lynch him anyways....I thought there was a fairly decent chance he was scum.
and I thought differently, obviously, as you decided to blackmail me into lynching him...
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Honestly I've been inexcusably absent from this game. Right now I'm pretty sure I want to lynch on the sudgy wagon, especially since the night kills were off-wagon. I'll have more when my VLA ends.
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I will say that I am not glad faust is dead, but I am glad to have an inaccurate scum read of mine removed from the game. Still think WW is scummy along with Jimmmmm...
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I guess a decent place to start looking is people who didn't want to move away from Andrew/Sudgy (assuming Andrew is town, which I believe). I know I was guilty of this, I think Ash may have been too? People who didn't want to lynch either get some town points I guess, although it's an easy stance for scum to take since I didn't feel anyone was really pushing any other wagons besides Sudgy/Andrew.
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
You are acting like we knew Sudgy was town and decided to lynch him anyways....I thought there was a fairly decent chance he was scum.
and I thought differently, obviously, as you decided to blackmail me into lynching him...
That's BS, yes I slightly manipulated you, but don't act like you had a town read on him all day either...
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
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I didn't feel anyone was really pushing any other wagons besides Sudgy/Andrew.
Strongly disagree!
PPE: No I didn't have a townread on him all day. I was voting for him quite early, but my read changed to town and I tried to get wagons started elsewhere but was opposed on all-sides
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
What about Andrew's claim? Do you disbelieve it?
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I didn't feel anyone was really pushing any other wagons besides Sudgy/Andrew.
Strongly disagree!
PPE: No I didn't have a townread on him all day. I was voting for him quite early, but my read changed to town and I tried to get wagons started elsewhere but was opposed on all-sides
No...people were voting elsewhere but it was scattered and all over the place. It was more of a "hey, this guy is my top scumread, I'm going to plop a vote here" rather than a more organized push.
And yeah I manipulated you...but ultimately I don't regret doing that. I regret that my read was wrong...but i don't regret doing what I can to convince people to vote my top scumread...i am happy when I get my top scumread lynched.
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Well, from Sudgy's flavor/role getting disclosed, and knowing my own, I've learned that they are highly correlated. So everyone's role makes sense in the context of their flavor. With these other two (Loial and Min), it makes perfect sense. So I think everyone's is.
I wasn't around for the last hour and so much happened. I had a real life commitment though. With Andrewis' claim, I think I would have unvoted Andrewis and that I was wrong before. That role seems too complex to just make up. And I can think of one flavor that it makes perfect sense for.
However, during day 1 there were a lot of things revealed flavorwise. I think people should stop telling things about their flavor and roles, unless we all think that should be revealed. Letting anything about flavor slip is enough information for someone that has read the books to make a good guess for their roles. And (I think) that's bad for us and good for the scum team. Of course, I've never done these roles before, so I wouldn't know as well.
PPE: 9 posts
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No...people were voting elsewhere but it was scattered and all over the place. It was more of a "hey, this guy is my top scumread, I'm going to plop a vote here" rather than a more organized push.
It wasn't an organized push because once one vote was put down everyone threw a fit and said, "WHY are you moving away from sudgy and Andrew!!! AH!!!" So I agree there wasn't an organized push, but not because people didn't try.
And I agree with you that this is where we should be looking--I said the same thing yesterday in fact, but again received negative feedback to that idea.
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Wait, two deaths at night? That confirms a third party, right?
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Something that I think is worth analyzing moreso in RMM than normal games is who the night kills are. Since everyone is a PR scum isn't doing much PR-hunting with their kills but rather looking at who they find threatening / who they think they can't get lynched. So once again that incriminates me and Ash...man I am looking scummy.
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Wait, two deaths at night? That confirms a third party, right?
Not necessarily... vigs (although I doubt it with my role) or other roles can have an impact regarding NKs, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a SK... I wonder what faust's role/flavor had to do with that bad guy he mentioned at the beginning of day1
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Wait, two deaths at night? That confirms a third party, right?
Makes it likely yeah....especially with Yuma's claim if/when it gets confirmed. Without the claim a vig is possible but I doubt there's a vig and a day vig.
So I'd say it's pretty likely but obviously not 100% confirmed.
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Wait, two deaths at night? That confirms a third party, right?
Not necessarily... vigs (although I doubt it with my role) or other roles can have an impact regarding NKs, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a SK... I wonder what faust's role/flavor had to do with that bad guy he mentioned at the beginning of day1
I'm a little bit confused about that.. Min didn't have a huge relationship with Mordeth. I thought for sure he was Mat.
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Although it could be a Paranoid Gun Owner or something else causing a death, so definitely not confirmed, although I'd lean towards there being a SK
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Andrew, what did you do last night? (I can't think of any good reason to not ask this, but there may be a reason I haven't thought of. Maybe better to save it in case of claims later today though?)
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Something that I think is worth analyzing moreso in RMM than normal games is who the night kills are. Since everyone is a PR scum isn't doing much PR-hunting with their kills but rather looking at who they find threatening / who they think they can't get lynched. So once again that incriminates me and Ash...man I am looking scummy.
Shraeye was pretty certain that Ash was scum, right?
Or, scum might want to kill the most agreed-upon town read.. they're less likely to get mislynched later, and it gives us less info, because we can't do an analysis like this. Did Shraeye have a strong town read from everyone?
I don't remember who Faust suspected.. I have to look back. But.. Faust was the one that brought up Mordeth. Mordeth, if in the game, would make a lot of sense as a third-party killer. Then Faust dies...
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Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.
I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
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I still think ash is Town.
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Andrew, what did you do last night? (I can't think of any good reason to not ask this, but there may be a reason I haven't thought of. Maybe better to save it in case of claims later today though?)
yeah, I would save it until later as it could potentially catch scum in a lie down the road. So unless it has essential, pertinent information then I see no reason to share it atm.
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Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.
I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
You expected Andrew to die yesterday instead of Sudgy? Or last night?
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Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.
I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
You expected Andrew to die yesterday instead of Sudgy? Or last night?
Yeah, why would Andrew be NKed when a good percentage of players have shown they're willing to lynch him?
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Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.
I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
You expected Andrew to die yesterday instead of Sudgy? Or last night?
Yeah, why would Andrew be NKed when a good percentage of players have shown they're willing to lynch him?
Last night. That claim sounds too legit to be fake. Other people really think he could still be scum?
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
Well I'm town so from my point of view it's better to lynch someone else (who could possibly be scum) than me. That's why I never said "hey guys it's cool, just lynch me" like sudgy did. It's important to remember that scum has flavor fake claims, so nobody should be completely convinced by somebody's claim
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Okay, I'm really annoyed by what happened last day/night.
Vote: Ash
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Okay, I'm really annoyed by what happened last day/night.
Vote: Ash
Explain.
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Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.
My reasons for lynching ash are the same as before, except plus the fact that he lynched sudgy instead of Andrew.
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I am less suspicious of Andrew after that claim.
I still think Jimm is scummy.
I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I can think of mainly four reasons why scum would not NK yuma.
1. Yuma is scum
2. Scum thinks we will lynch yuma if they let him survive long enough.
3. Scum thought yuma would be doctored.
4. Scum thought it was more importaint to kill Shraeye or Faust.
Plus a couple of more obscure ones, like scum killing yuma, but the kill was then redirected, etc.
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
Well I'm town so from my point of view it's better to lynch someone else (who could possibly be scum) than me. That's why I never said "hey guys it's cool, just lynch me" like sudgy did. It's important to remember that scum has flavor fake claims, so nobody should be completely convinced by somebody's claim
But do they know the appropriate role to claim with their flavor?
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?
1. He actually is scum with a daykill.
2. Dayvig is a fakeclaim, and he plans to excuse himself from shooting for as long as he can.
None of these theories are fully statisfying, It is probably more likely that he is a town dayvig. I still have a bad feeling about him that I have problems shaking away.
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I can think of mainly four reasons why scum would not NK yuma.
1. Yuma is scum
2. Scum thinks we will lynch yuma if they let him survive long enough.
3. Scum thought yuma would be doctored.
4. Scum thought it was more importaint to kill Shraeye or Faust.
Plus a couple of more obscure ones, like scum killing yuma, but the kill was then redirected, etc.
Or you know... they feel that my power is best left in the game. Perhaps they feel that they can more strongly influence my decision to use my vig power to benefit them... it would basically be an extra lynch or NK if scum can make sure that it is used on not them. I think that is the most compelling reason for me to stay alive.
After that I would say that number 3 is huge. This is probably the biggest reason scum killed anyone--I disagree with the killing for PR hunting OR killing off people who had scum reads--I think scum killed people who they felt confident wouldn't be protected... hence kills on people that we find unusual actually make perfect sense
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?
1. He actually is scum with a daykill.
2. Dayvig is a fakeclaim, and he plans to excuse himself from shooting for as long as he can.
None of these theories are fully statisfying, It is probably more likely that he is a town dayvig. I still have a bad feeling about him that I have problems shaking away.
But.. If he was scum and new Andrewis was town, why would he fight so hard to prevent the lynch?
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Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.
My reasons for lynching ash are the same as before, except plus the fact that he lynched sudgy instead of Andrew.
What? Why does claiming this information have anything to do with your vote on ashersky?
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*knew
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
If you don't want me to put forward effort I'll just randomly roll a dice and shoot whomever it picks for me and then lurk until deadline and then derphammer if I happen to be around... does that work for you?
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
Well I'm town so from my point of view it's better to lynch someone else (who could possibly be scum) than me. That's why I never said "hey guys it's cool, just lynch me" like sudgy did. It's important to remember that scum has flavor fake claims, so nobody should be completely convinced by somebody's claim
But do they know the appropriate role to claim with their flavor?
I'm assuming that's what is meant by a flavor fake claim but maybe I shouldn't assume anymore.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
If you don't want me to put forward effort I'll just randomly roll a dice and shoot whomever it picks for me and then lurk until deadline and then derphammer if I happen to be around... does that work for you?
I don't see how it was obvious at all.. at least not up until the point after claims. I mean yes, you were right in the end, and maybe you're good at reading, but I don't consider anything happening here obvious in any way. And a lot of people had strong scum reads on Sudgy and Andrewis. I agree with you that Sudgy didn't seem scummy, but I wasn't 100% confident. And you argued that the case that was made against Andrewis wasn't a good one, but even accepting your argument doesn't mean he's certainly town, it just means the argument other people made against him wasn't valid.
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This is going to be my last post for awhile and is based more of memory than a careful reread but right now I'm thinking of TA and FTTW, possibly ash. The problem with FTTW is he may have been just willing to lynch someone who wasn't him.
Well I'm town so from my point of view it's better to lynch someone else (who could possibly be scum) than me. That's why I never said "hey guys it's cool, just lynch me" like sudgy did. It's important to remember that scum has flavor fake claims, so nobody should be completely convinced by somebody's claim
But do they know the appropriate role to claim with their flavor?
I'm assuming that's what is meant by a flavor fake claim but maybe I shouldn't assume anymore.
I was thinking we could possibly catch someone with inconsistent flavor/role claims.
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Don't know the reason for killing faust as he was pretty set on lynching me. Could killing shraeye have something to do with ash?
These two posts from Jimm set off some red flags for me:
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
It seems like he's asking me to do something that I can't do, maybe so he can point to this later and say I was unwilling to cooperate or that my claim is a fakeclaim, otherwise I would've shown that I've thought about it beforehand and could somehow answer his question appropriately.
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Arch's analysis seems to be assuming that Andrew is 100% town, rather than 95% or 90% town. Like, it seems like he didn't even consider the possibility that Andrew's claim could possibly be fake.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
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Arch's analysis seems to be assuming that Andrew is 100% town, rather than 95% or 90% town. Like, it seems like he didn't even consider the possibility that Andrew's claim could possibly be fake.
I've considered it in my own mind, but decided that it's very unlikely. Do YOU believe his claim to be false? I don't think it is, it's too...modified, I guess? But I agree that this:
I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
is weird.
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I can think of mainly four reasons why scum would not NK yuma.
1. Yuma is scum
2. Scum thinks we will lynch yuma if they let him survive long enough.
3. Scum thought yuma would be doctored.
4. Scum thought it was more importaint to kill Shraeye or Faust.
Plus a couple of more obscure ones, like scum killing yuma, but the kill was then redirected, etc.
Or you know... they feel that my power is best left in the game. Perhaps they feel that they can more strongly influence my decision to use my vig power to benefit them... it would basically be an extra lynch or NK if scum can make sure that it is used on not them. I think that is the most compelling reason for me to stay alive.
After that I would say that number 3 is huge. This is probably the biggest reason scum killed anyone--I disagree with the killing for PR hunting OR killing off people who had scum reads--I think scum killed people who they felt confident wouldn't be protected... hence kills on people that we find unusual actually make perfect sense
I agree. If I were scum, I'd figure Andrew would Doctor yuma and kill elsewhere.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
What? This is so strange.
You are simultaneously assuming Andrew is 100% town, but then voting Ash because he wants to maintain the possibility of Andrew being scum? I don't get how you can do both of those things.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
is weird.
What's weird?
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
is weird.
What's weird?
You said you expected Yuma to be targeted. You didn't doctor him though?
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
is weird.
What's weird?
You said you expected Yuma to be targeted. You didn't doctor him though?
Maybe, maybe not. I didn't consider the possibility of a third party though so that line of thinking is moot.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
I thought you had a doctor ability.
is weird.
What's weird?
You said you expected Yuma to be targeted. You didn't doctor him though?
Maybe, maybe not. I didn't consider the possibility of a third party though so that line of thinking is moot.
Gah, I'm confused. You mean your original line of thinking? Why does third party make that moot?
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Just a heads up, I start my job tomorrow, so my activity will probably be dropping.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
This is want I assumed you meant as well.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
What? This is so strange.
You are simultaneously assuming Andrew is 100% town, but then voting Ash because he wants to maintain the possibility of Andrew being scum? I don't get how you can do both of those things.
s to
From scum!ash's position, he knows Andrew is Town. He tries to push that mislynch, but fails. Nking him will prove that ash was scum trying to push the mislynch. So he leaves him alive hoping to get him lynched today thinking "not everyone thought he was Town". Obviously he hasn't yet, but I will point everyone to this argument if he does.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
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Don't know the reason for killing faust as he was pretty set on lynching me. Could killing shraeye have something to do with ash?
These two posts from Jimm set off some red flags for me:
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
It seems like he's asking me to do something that I can't do, maybe so he can point to this later and say I was unwilling to cooperate or that my claim is a fakeclaim, otherwise I would've shown that I've thought about it beforehand and could somehow answer his question appropriately.
I did also notice those two posts.
vote: jimmmmm
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I'll be catching up over the next few hours. Have skimmed, thought the same as many of you on Andrew's post on Yuma.
He either was surprised Yuma didn't die, which would mean he didn't protect him even though he just said he expected Yuma to be the NK, or he assumed two other deaths meant his protection was wasted.
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Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.
So you early claim a "useless" role and say you targeted a dead guy who can't confirm it?
Sounds like trying to get around and ahead of any trackers/watchers, etc. to me.
vote: xerxespraelor
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I reread the last few pages leading up to sudgy's lynch.
Two things I noticed:
TA being flip-floppity during the lynch. He REALLY wants to see someone lynched...but doesn't mind a no lynch. At first blush, this seemed pretty scummy. But as I continued reading, I became more convinced that it wasn't. His top 2 scumreads were up for a lynch, and didn't mind either one dying, which I can understand. He mentions that a no lynch wouldn't be bad, but explains that a no lynch for a RMM game isn't too bad. It's easy for scum to make that argument, but the honesty reminds me of Teproc in the first Battle School Blitz. So, light townread from that.
I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
This is my reaction as well. Why would it matter what the role does? ash claims its for credibility, but if people are going to disbelieve his claim, then why does he need to claim it in the first place? Scum wants to know what the power is to determine if it is a threat or not.
So this gives me a scumread on ashersky and Jimmmmm. Moreso on ashersky for asking in the first place and the semi-innocent way he asked it. Combined with Andrew being alive, gives me a pretty strong scumread on ash and makes me comfortable with my vote.
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I'm still confused why Andrew living has any bearing on my alignment.
I'm pretty sure one of the strongest ever claimed town PRs in the history of f.ds surviving when presumably he can't self doctor AND two other people died is a strong argument that ANDREW is scum, and that my original read was right.
His doc/block claim could just as easily be a scum Roleblocker cover.
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Arch, I definitely wanted a lynch over a no lynch.
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I mean as people have said a no-lynch in RMM isn't the worst, but I would much prefer to get one through. Or else we just turn this whole D1 into a chase of moving from place to place to place without learning anything. If we don't get a lynch this D1 becomes much less useful. Lynches make scum make choices, lots of wagons sitting at 2-3 votes means that scum have no risk and no inertia to move votes anywhere.
It's not the end of the world but I would highly prefer actually lynching someone today
This is the quote I was referencing. I could've sworn there was another one though.
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Er, wait. That was Yuma.
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Vote Count 1.FINAL:
sudgy (7): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Quick wagon check:
On-wagon: Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
Off-wagon: XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron, shraeye, faust
Leaves Xerxes, WW, and xeiron off wagon, everyone else alive on.
ADK was the first to suggest lynching on wagon today. I don't think it's right to give off-wagon a pass.
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Wait, two deaths at night? That confirms a third party, right?
Not necessarily... vigs (although I doubt it with my role) or other roles can have an impact regarding NKs, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a SK... I wonder what faust's role/flavor had to do with that bad guy he mentioned at the beginning of day1
Vig, PGO, SK, made up role that kills people, all sorts of things can happen in RMM. I agree that if yuma is telling the truth, a normal vig in addition to a day vig would be overkill.
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I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
I still haven't gotten a response as to why Andrew being alive has anything to do with me. He was my top scum read, then he claimed a strong town role, then he survived with one of the strongest town roles I can think of. None of which means I'm scum.
I'm still catching up. Andrew's posts on D2 sound towny, and his "yuma wasn't an NK target?" slip makes him either conf!town or his second scumslip of the game. Again, I will put it out there that it is just ridonkulous that scum goes "hey, we know for sure that guy is a doctor AND a roleblocker, so let's leave him alive, especially since at the end of D1 it didn't look like anyone wanted to lynch him." Would you leave such as strong PR who is basically believed by everyone alive as scum?
So I think it's still very possible that Andrew is scum who had a great fakeclaim.
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Sorry I couldn't be around for deadline - I had a tennis match.
I think I'm going to vote:ashersky. I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
You expected Andrew to die yesterday instead of Sudgy? Or last night?
Yeah, why would Andrew be NKed when a good percentage of players have shown they're willing to lynch him?
I disagree here -- I think if Andrew is telling the truth about his role, he's absolutely a good NK for scum, probably the best. (as an aside to the mods: definitely a cool role!). I have to assume the mods realized the strength of that and gave scum a way to battle it.
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Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.
My reasons for lynching ash are the same as before, except plus the fact that he lynched sudgy instead of Andrew.
This is such an awesome explanation for voting for me, by the way. Your night action claim has nothing to do with me.
Also, "except plus" is confusing to me, is lyching sudgy in my favor or against me? Were you around at deadline to help us decide what to do? Nope. Andrew claimed, sudgy was the only other viable lynch.
I will mention again the incredible convenience of your claim. You say you targeted a player last night who was killed last night. You know who for sure targeted shraeye? The person who killed him. Now we have a mailman claim from you with no way to confirm it, an early admittance that you targeted a player who died and a convenient excuse for it.
What's hilarious to me is, look at Faust's flip again man. Unless there are multiple roles like that, you were probably in the clear without this. My guess is you had pre-planned it last night and didn't want to deviate.
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I think claiming was/is a mistake because everyone is just going say "it could be a fakeclaim!" and we get nowhere. So with that in mind, I agree with Arch's assessment and will
vote: ashersky
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?
I think the only way not-town-yuma claims Dayvig is if he rolled SK. He's pretty public about hating that role, and he's pretty public about not taking RMM that seriously, so combining the two, I could see him going "hey, I wonder how long I can ride a dayvig claim" and giving it a shot. SKs often need buffs, so maybe he has a dayvig in addition to his normal role.
That's pretty far-fetched, though. Most likely he's just what he says he is, and it's basically confirmable (well, the dayvig part).
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I think claiming was/is a mistake because everyone is just going say "it could be a fakeclaim!" and we get nowhere. So with that in mind, I agree with Arch's assessment and will
vote: ashersky
Who's claiming was a mistake? Xerxes? Or you?
It's pretty hilarious of you to vote me right after I point out the incredulity of you surviving the night as one of the strongest town roles around.
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I know I'm town so I don't see why it's hilarious.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Here's the post everyone and their mother picked up on. As I've mentioned, I see two narratives where this makes sense:
1) Andrew is not lying about his role. That means he most likely doctored yuma, and then was surprised that anyone, let alone two players, died. This would be consistent with a newbie player who's also never played RMM, since anyone who has would know that there are many ways for players to die, get around doctoring, etc.
2) Andrew is lying about his role. That means he's most likely scum, and he was trying to make a statement that would be consistent with his fakeclaim while showing town!concern. This would be consistent with a newbie player who's never played scum before or RMM before, since this is a bit of a fumble. We've seen it happen to newbie scum before.
Both of these narratives are possible, and in a vacuum I'd say the town narrative is more likely. We don't play these games in a vacuum, though. Taking into account his super scummy D1, his survival after his claim, and his current defensiveness, I am leaning scum again on Andrew, and am kicking myself for falling for his crap near the end of D1 that forced us into the sudgy mislynch.
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I think all claiming in this game is a mistake. Since you know so much about roles and fakeclaims and such, you know there's no reason to inquire any further about a claim especially if you're just going to turn around and say it's probably a fakeclaim. I'm alive because scum thinks I could be mislynch today.
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Oh here we go again with the "defensiveness". Hear ye, hear ye! Let it be known, defending yourself is scummy.
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I know I'm town so I don't see why it's hilarious.
You need to get over this line of thinking if you are going to be useful as town. In any game that you are town, ONLY you know that (edgecases like IC excepted), so continually declaring this does no good whatsoever.
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Oh here we go again with the "defensiveness". Hear ye, hear ye! Let it be known, defending yourself is scummy.
Defending yourself when you aren't being attacked is scummy. It's what scum does, because scum is self-conscious, and always overreacts to pressure. Scum sees any discussion of them, their actions, their posts, and immediately goes on the defensive. That's a scumtell, tried and true.
You see me discussing the possibility that your claim was fake. You immediately go on the defensive, vote for me, etc. That's what is scummy, not the act of defending yourself.
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Actually that's going on the offensive.
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I can think of mainly four reasons why scum would not NK yuma.
1. Yuma is scum
2. Scum thinks we will lynch yuma if they let him survive long enough.
3. Scum thought yuma would be doctored.
4. Scum thought it was more importaint to kill Shraeye or Faust.
Plus a couple of more obscure ones, like scum killing yuma, but the kill was then redirected, etc.
Or you know... they feel that my power is best left in the game. Perhaps they feel that they can more strongly influence my decision to use my vig power to benefit them... it would basically be an extra lynch or NK if scum can make sure that it is used on not them. I think that is the most compelling reason for me to stay alive.
After that I would say that number 3 is huge. This is probably the biggest reason scum killed anyone--I disagree with the killing for PR hunting OR killing off people who had scum reads--I think scum killed people who they felt confident wouldn't be protected... hence kills on people that we find unusual actually make perfect sense
Again, I think yuma is more correct here, although xeiron's reasons are sensible. Depending on how good or bad yuma's reads are, scum could definitely think they could "control" his shot in a way that is advantageous to them.
For example, if yuma has a strong townread on one or more scum, they'd feel pretty good about leaving him around to possibly provide a free town kill.
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Actually that's going on the offensive.
So then why do you complain about me saying you are being defensive? Why not just say "but I'm not defensive, I'm offensive."
Anyway, you decided to start attacking me the moment I mention something about you, when it wasn't needed. It was a discussion point, but you overreacted and felt it was an attack on you. That's what scum does. They overreact to any attention/pressure/cases and become defensive/go on the offensive.
OMGUS is an exagerrated thing that's become a big joke, but it's based on this actual scumtell.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
Which two towns? Sudgy and...? Unless you have a result or something to share on Andrew, he's yet to be confirmed as town.
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No I voted for you after I posted how I found Jimm suspicious for his questions and after Arch posted huh ow he found you suspicious for yours. Whether or not you were talking about me made no difference. I was mocking your reason because we argued about my defensiveness all D1 and here we are again.
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I found you towny D1 but you're just the opposite now. The way you're flailing trying to find anything at all to say I'm scummy even if there's nothing there, stretching the truth by saying I was reacting defensively to your posts by voting you... this only confirms why I'm alive. Because scum knows they can continue to push for my mislynch this way.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
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Maybe, maybe not. I didn't consider the possibility of a third party though so that line of thinking is moot.
You didn't consider the possibility of a third party when? Now? Last night? It's in the OP that it's possible.
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Just a heads up, I start my job tomorrow, so my activity will probably be dropping.
Congrats on the job!
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
Unless they're brazen.. or they plan to use this as a defense in case they ever have to.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
What? This is so strange.
You are simultaneously assuming Andrew is 100% town, but then voting Ash because he wants to maintain the possibility of Andrew being scum? I don't get how you can do both of those things.
s to
From scum!ash's position, he knows Andrew is Town. He tries to push that mislynch, but fails. Nking him will prove that ash was scum trying to push the mislynch. So he leaves him alive hoping to get him lynched today thinking "not everyone thought he was Town". Obviously he hasn't yet, but I will point everyone to this argument if he does.
Really? "NKing him will prove that ash is scum." In what universe, man? By that logic, anyone who pushed the sudgy mislynch is scum because look, sudgy flipped town.
It was pretty clear near the end of D1 following Andrew's claim that everyone believed him. The only way we are correctly lynch him is if he gives himself away (again) and someone catches on. I'm waiting to see if yuma's still 100% convinced Andrew's an IC, like he was on D1.
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Maybe, maybe not. I didn't consider the possibility of a third party though so that line of thinking is moot.
You didn't consider the possibility of a third party when? Now? Last night? It's in the OP that it's possible.
When I made that post.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
Why did you post a pointless post? And then why did you point out it was pointless?
You said what you said because yuma being alive, or others dying, or something triggered a reaction. Why that happened in unclear. It could be that you believed doctoring yuma would result in no deaths last night. It could be that you tried to kill yuma last night and were surprised he lived. But it means something, so you can't get us to stop thinking about it with a post like this.
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I reread the last few pages leading up to sudgy's lynch.
Two things I noticed:
TA being flip-floppity during the lynch. He REALLY wants to see someone lynched...but doesn't mind a no lynch. At first blush, this seemed pretty scummy. But as I continued reading, I became more convinced that it wasn't. His top 2 scumreads were up for a lynch, and didn't mind either one dying, which I can understand. He mentions that a no lynch wouldn't be bad, but explains that a no lynch for a RMM game isn't too bad. It's easy for scum to make that argument, but the honesty reminds me of Teproc in the first Battle School Blitz. So, light townread from that.
I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Why does it matter?
This is my reaction as well. Why would it matter what the role does? ash claims its for credibility, but if people are going to disbelieve his claim, then why does he need to claim it in the first place? Scum wants to know what the power is to determine if it is a threat or not.
So this gives me a scumread on ashersky and Jimmmmm. Moreso on ashersky for asking in the first place and the semi-innocent way he asked it. Combined with Andrew being alive, gives me a pretty strong scumread on ash and makes me comfortable with my vote.
I think it was a valid thing to flesh out at the time and so I disagree with you. Scum can claim stuff. You have to do some due diligence to figure out if someone's lying.
If someone said "I'm the Cryptkeeping Jingle Jangle! Don't lynch me!" are you going to go, "hey, that sounds important, let's not lynch him!"? Or maybe you might want to know what a Jingle Jangle is.
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No I voted for you after I posted how I found Jimm suspicious for his questions and after Arch posted huh ow he found you suspicious for yours. Whether or not you were talking about me made no difference. I was mocking your reason because we argued about my defensiveness all D1 and here we are again.
So your thought process was:
1) Hey, Jimmmmm seems suspicious! Let me tell people about it!
2) Hey, Arch made a post about ashersky!
3) Hey, I'll just vote for ashersky even though I just told people about how someone else is suspicious!
I don't follow.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
Unless they're brazen.. or they plan to use this as a defense in case they ever have to.
I feel like you've maybe never rolled scum before. This is probably a townslip.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
Why did you post a pointless post? And then why did you point out it was pointless?
You said what you said because yuma being alive, or others dying, or something triggered a reaction. Why that happened in unclear. It could be that you believed doctoring yuma would result in no deaths last night. It could be that you tried to kill yuma last night and were surprised he lived. But it means something, so you can't get us to stop thinking about it with a post like this.
Well the only ones who claimed if I remember correctly were me and yuma so I figured scum would lynch a vig over me so I was surprised when shraeye and faust were killed and yuma wasnt. That's about as far as that post goes. I know it's a dumb post, that's why I said it's pointless.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
Why did you post a pointless post? And then why did you point out it was pointless?
You said what you said because yuma being alive, or others dying, or something triggered a reaction. Why that happened in unclear. It could be that you believed doctoring yuma would result in no deaths last night. It could be that you tried to kill yuma last night and were surprised he lived. But it means something, so you can't get us to stop thinking about it with a post like this.
Well the only ones who claimed if I remember correctly were me and yuma so I figured scum would lynch a vig over me so I was surprised when shraeye and faust were killed and yuma wasnt. That's about as far as that post goes. I know it's a dumb post, that's why I said it's pointless.
But.. arghh! If you thought Yuma was the most likely to be lynched why wouldn't you use your doctor ability on him? And if you did use your doctor ability, why would you be surprised when he wasn't killed?
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No I voted for you after I posted how I found Jimm suspicious for his questions and after Arch posted huh ow he found you suspicious for yours. Whether or not you were talking about me made no difference. I was mocking your reason because we argued about my defensiveness all D1 and here we are again.
So your thought process was:
1) Hey, Jimmmmm seems suspicious! Let me tell people about it!
2) Hey, Arch made a post about ashersky!
3) Hey, I'll just vote for ashersky even though I just told people about how someone else is suspicious!
I don't follow.
Posts like these are so inaccurate and misleading, this is why I was frustrated D1. I would explain things, people would misquote or misconstrue things I've said, I'd explain things again and I'd be frustrated because of it, and everyone would accuse me of overreacting. Do I seriously have to explain this again? And really it doesn't matter what you think of my thought process. I think you're scum. I explained my reasons for thinking you're scum. I don't have anything to prove to you about my vote. On the contrary, you should be trying to convince me why I shouldn't vote for you. And posts like this aren't helping you.
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
Why did you post a pointless post? And then why did you point out it was pointless?
You said what you said because yuma being alive, or others dying, or something triggered a reaction. Why that happened in unclear. It could be that you believed doctoring yuma would result in no deaths last night. It could be that you tried to kill yuma last night and were surprised he lived. But it means something, so you can't get us to stop thinking about it with a post like this.
Well the only ones who claimed if I remember correctly were me and yuma so I figured scum would lynch a vig over me so I was surprised when shraeye and faust were killed and yuma wasnt. That's about as far as that post goes. I know it's a dumb post, that's why I said it's pointless.
But.. arghh! If you thought Yuma was the most likely to be lynched why wouldn't you use your doctor ability on him? And if you did use your doctor ability, why would you be surprised when he wasn't killed?
Another townslip here.
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No I voted for you after I posted how I found Jimm suspicious for his questions and after Arch posted huh ow he found you suspicious for yours. Whether or not you were talking about me made no difference. I was mocking your reason because we argued about my defensiveness all D1 and here we are again.
So your thought process was:
1) Hey, Jimmmmm seems suspicious! Let me tell people about it!
2) Hey, Arch made a post about ashersky!
3) Hey, I'll just vote for ashersky even though I just told people about how someone else is suspicious!
I don't follow.
Posts like these are so inaccurate and misleading, this is why I was frustrated D1. I would explain things, people would misquote or misconstrue things I've said, I'd explain things again and I'd be frustrated because of it, and everyone would accuse me of overreacting. Do I seriously have to explain this again? And really it doesn't matter what you think of my thought process. I think you're scum. I explained my reasons for thinking you're scum. I don't have anything to prove to you about my vote. On the contrary, you should be trying to convince me why I shouldn't vote for you. And posts like this aren't helping you.
You are still thinking like scum thinks, and that's your problem. If you aren't scum, why think this way? This is why I'm so confident about you. If shraeye was here, he'd back me up on this. This is like caught raerae on D1 of Adventure Time.
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I'm still confused why Andrew living has any bearing on my alignment.
I'm pretty sure one of the strongest ever claimed town PRs in the history of f.ds surviving when presumably he can't self doctor AND two other people died is a strong argument that ANDREW is scum, and that my original read was right.
His doc/block claim could just as easily be a scum Roleblocker cover.
I disagree. Twofold reasons...
1. he was a mislynch option yesterday, that isn't going to just magically go away. Scum want to leave alive mislynch options if at all possible
2. I still contend that scum is going to kill people who they think the least likely to be protected or watched or whatever in this situation... I would put Andrew pretty high on the list of "likely to be protected or watched" and thus a bad kill for today, especially in RMM where everyone is going to have a role of some sort. If I were a protective role or a watcher I think Andrew would have been high on my list
and yes I realize that my reasons above somewhat contradict, but that just amplifies the problem that scum has with killing him, lots of WIFOM. Scum doesn't want to mess around with WIFOM for their night kills... they want to make sure they go through and that they don't get caught doing it!
And we don't even know what roles mafia has, maybe they just bussed andrew or something akin to that.
Regardless he is still a top townread and we shouldn't be lynching him today.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
Which two towns? Sudgy and...? Unless you have a result or something to share on Andrew, he's yet to be confirmed as town.
Sorry, that was typed in a rush and incorrectly... should probably read "lynch on two townie reads, both of which ended up being correct (at least one confirmed and the other very likely given his claim)...
So yeah, Andrew isn't an IC. Just a very strong townread
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Ok ash.
My phone is about to die so I'm turning it off. I'll be back later once I plug it in.
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I'm still confused why Andrew living has any bearing on my alignment.
I'm pretty sure one of the strongest ever claimed town PRs in the history of f.ds surviving when presumably he can't self doctor AND two other people died is a strong argument that ANDREW is scum, and that my original read was right.
His doc/block claim could just as easily be a scum Roleblocker cover.
I disagree. Twofold reasons...
1. he was a mislynch option yesterday, that isn't going to just magically go away. Scum want to leave alive mislynch options if at all possible
2. I still contend that scum is going to kill people who they think the least likely to be protected or watched or whatever in this situation... I would put Andrew pretty high on the list of "likely to be protected or watched" and thus a bad kill for today, especially in RMM where everyone is going to have a role of some sort. If I were a protective role or a watcher I think Andrew would have been high on my list
and yes I realize that my reasons above somewhat contradict, but that just amplifies the problem that scum has with killing him, lots of WIFOM. Scum doesn't want to mess around with WIFOM for their night kills... they want to make sure they go through and that they don't get caught doing it!
And we don't even know what roles mafia has, maybe they just bussed andrew or something akin to that.
Regardless he is still a top townread and we shouldn't be lynching him today.
The reason I disagree with your assessment is that, if Andrew is telling the truth, he's already admitted to being the doctor. Unless you think there are multiple doctors (which is of course possible in RMM, but I'd assume they'd be looking for variety in the setup), Andrew wasn't likely to be protected because he can't protect himself. Sure, he could have been the watched, I guess, if that exists (looks like Faust was a variant).
Do you really see him as a mislynch candidate (before today, I mean)? He was in pretty great shape at the end of D1. Strong claim, his most vocal opposition (me, TA) backing down, and he got a sudgy mislynch through. Why would we suddenly return to him as a lynch candidate again?
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
Which two towns? Sudgy and...? Unless you have a result or something to share on Andrew, he's yet to be confirmed as town.
Sorry, that was typed in a rush and incorrectly... should probably read "lynch on two townie reads, both of which ended up being correct (at least one confirmed and the other very likely given his claim)...
So yeah, Andrew isn't an IC. Just a very strong townread
Okay.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
Unless they're brazen.. or they plan to use this as a defense in case they ever have to.
I feel like you've maybe never rolled scum before. This is probably a townslip.
I don't follow. I'm saying that adamantly pushing a mislynch is something a scum would want to do because then they can go "why would I want to do that if I was scum? It would be crazy to be in the center of attention!", and convince everyone that scum wouldn't do that. Plus they get the mislynch.
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Pre-reread, I'm most suspicious of Xeiron. He doesn't seem like his usual town self (no plans yet), and seems much more cautious and afraid to put himself out there. He's normally pretty out there as town, in the sense that he's not afraid to make his opinion known, and usually pushes what he thinks is correct pretty loudly, even though he doesn't have many posts. I haven't seen much of that pushing so far this game.
I also think the way he avoided the Sudgy wagon was potentially a position scum wanted -- he avoided it at all costs, saying that Sudgy was definitely town, but I remember that I didn't see an actual defense, just "Sudgy is obviously town to me". I need to see if this is true or it was me having blinders on, but it was suspicious to me when it happened, and it still is in light of Sudgy's flip.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
Unless they're brazen.. or they plan to use this as a defense in case they ever have to.
I feel like you've maybe never rolled scum before. This is probably a townslip.
I don't follow. I'm saying that adamantly pushing a mislynch is something a scum would want to do because then they can go "why would I want to do that if I was scum? It would be crazy to be in the center of attention!", and convince everyone that scum wouldn't do that. Plus they get the mislynch.
I'm saying you are probably town. You don't have to argue against it.
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Yuma I think you should shoot earlier today.
If you misfire, that's 9 alive, with lynch And 2 potential night kills we are at 6, with likely 3 scum alive if everything goes bad. That means that if you shoot earlier we have the potential to no-lynch to maintain parity.
If you don't shoot today you are left shooting in a potential lylo situation which is not a good thing.
Do you think you are planning on shooting today? I think you should, plus I'd love to have your claim verified.
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I support yuma shooting today.
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Vote Count 1.FINAL:
sudgy (7): Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (6): XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron
ashersky (1): shraeye
Twistedarcher (1): faust
Quick wagon check:
On-wagon: Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky, Jimmmmm
Off-wagon: XerxesPraelor, sudgy, Witherweaver, xeiron, shraeye, faust
Leaves Xerxes, WW, and xeiron off wagon, everyone else alive on.
ADK was the first to suggest lynching on wagon today. I don't think it's right to give off-wagon a pass.
Look at the flips: every single person who was killed was off-wagon and town; I think it's pretty obvious that there's a trend there.
Okay, I'm a mailman. I sent a message to shraeye last night. I think my role is pretty much exactly average and so doesn't help scum much in deciding who to kill, but does narrow down who the SK could be for them, which is good for us.
So you early claim a "useless" role and say you targeted a dead guy who can't confirm it?
Sounds like trying to get around and ahead of any trackers/watchers, etc. to me.
vote: xerxespraelor
I gave the reason I claimed: to help scum get the SK (if one exists). I don't believe it's useless either and think it's possible I'll be night-killed. There's also an extra nice little twist that makes it more useful.
Anyway, if I message someone, will they then know I'm town? That is, does mailman often show up in scum?
P.S. Actual case on ash upcoming.
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I also support yuma shooting.
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Alright, caught up.
Honestly, not a lot there. TA and yuma are town reads out of all of this.
I feel like there are a number of players just skating by, and it's an easy place for scum to hide. I'd say faust, both Xs, ADK, shraeye and maybe Jimmmmm fit into that description? Obviously can't all be scum, but seems like a good place to hide.
We've got 50 hours to deadline, basically. I don't think we should limit this to sudgy vs. Andrew (the only two wagons currently), but need to look around.
The good thing about a lynch of either large wagon is plenty of interactions to review. Andrew has done nothing to convince me of his innocence up to this point, and nothing going on around him has cleared him either. sudgy is always scummy, and he's not seemingly like caught!sudgy, which he's (unfortunately for him) unable to hide very well.
I'm going to do some targeted re-reads.
I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.
I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?
I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.
You could take out a lurker, if you are compulsive and don't have strong reads. shraeye, either X, etc.
I'll ask...
ash... if I am not going to shoot Andrew who would you suggest I shoot instead?
I think at this point i am interested in hearing opinions from everyone--well everyone that has a solid opinion on this. Don't just create an opinion for me. I only want solid opinions and I am not demanding everyone give one just for the sake of giving one.
I think the thought process if I was a dayvig who had to shoot today...
1) Do I have a scum read I'm confident enough in to shoot them as a N1 vig? If yes, shoot them D1. If no...
2) Is there consensus on a target from the majority of players? How do I feel about those who agree? Then...
3) Is there a lurker or two who seem suspiciously absent from important conversations, or just laid down a vote and disappeared?
I think the answers to 2/3 would lead me to a good target. For me, that's probably shraeye right now. Even though he's agreed with me, and I like that, the way he agreed and left is odd to me. Maybe he has a good excuse, and he'll be back and contributing, and I'd change my mind (which is why it's good to take time on this). He's such a strong town player that we don't want to lose him, but man he's hard to catch as scum, too.
I'd say sudgy and the two Xs are on the scummy end of the Andrew wagon, and are probably in the "fine to lynch, so fine for yuma to shoot" category, so if I was looking for a suspicious bus (or scum helping along a mislynch), it'd be those two.
I don't have a lot of firm town reads. Just a few scummy and a lot of null.
I don't envy your position, yuma. It's a hard decision, and sucks if you get it wrong.
Here are all the times ash refers to me before his case. Most of them cast general suspicion on me without giving enough reason or a vote, and that's scummy. Notice that ash never voted for me until just very recently.
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I refer to you as part of the two Xs. Not exactly a concerted effort to talk about you.
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I know it's not about me in particular (that's a very small fraction of your posts). Why does that matter? You're still spreading suspicion. (this does make me have a townier read on xeiron, though)
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Xerxes, you do realize that for town members to win the game, they have to lynch scum right? And to lynch scum, they have to get them lynched? And to get them lynched, they have to cast suspicion on them?
There are many many people lurking by without building a case anywhere. It's so easy to not build a case at all, and then point the finger at the people who are wrong when they *do* build a case.
I do have a scummier read on Ash than I did at D1 at this point, but honestly, I am afraid that if we lynch him (or Yuma) if he's town we are in trouble D3. There are not enough active town members left who are willing to push cases, and that's what we need to get scum lynched. If Ash is town and we lynch him it's going to be very hard to push cases D2. I hate giving an activity pass D2 but there aren't enough active players pushing cases for me to want to lynch an active player D2. Too many people playing "safe" games IMO.
Vote: Xeiron He's towards the top of my list and hasn't been doing much to push cases thus far
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You're still spreading suspicion.
What does that even mean? In a game centred around there being players who actively want to "kill" everyone else, you're suggesting that we not be suspicious of people?
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TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.
On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.
TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.
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Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
Well ash would want to leave you alive so that he seems more right about you being scum. If he were to kill you and you flip Town, it would point to him pushing hardcore on you.
In my head that sounded so much more convincing. I'll leave my vote though.
Oh, here's the "reason." Yeah, not convinced this makes any sense. If I was worried that Andrew flipping town "would point to [me] pushing hardcore" on him on D1, why would I have pushed for his (mis)lynch on D1? Scum can't fear things like this or they'd never get anyone killed.
Unless they're brazen.. or they plan to use this as a defense in case they ever have to.
I feel like you've maybe never rolled scum before. This is probably a townslip.
I don't follow. I'm saying that adamantly pushing a mislynch is something a scum would want to do because then they can go "why would I want to do that if I was scum? It would be crazy to be in the center of attention!", and convince everyone that scum wouldn't do that. Plus they get the mislynch.
I'm saying you are probably town. You don't have to argue against it.
I'm not arguing against being town. The point is you're being dismissive of the argument I'm making without addressing it.
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I am not interested in arguments about when I will shoot (if I have a choice in the matter, that is one that I will be making completely on my own).
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Xerxes, you do realize that for town members to win the game, they have to lynch scum right? And to lynch scum, they have to get them lynched? And to get them lynched, they have to cast suspicion on them?
There are many many people lurking by without building a case anywhere. It's so easy to not build a case at all, and then point the finger at the people who are wrong when they *do* build a case.
I do have a scummier read on Ash than I did at D1 at this point, but honestly, I am afraid that if we lynch him (or Yuma) if he's town we are in trouble D3. There are not enough active town members left who are willing to push cases, and that's what we need to get scum lynched. If Ash is town and we lynch him it's going to be very hard to push cases D2. I hate giving an activity pass D2 but there aren't enough active players pushing cases for me to want to lynch an active player D2. Too many people playing "safe" games IMO.
Vote: Xeiron He's towards the top of my list and hasn't been doing much to push cases thus far
They should do it more directly though, with votes and cases. That is a good point about the activity, but he's still by far my strongest scum read. Which of the people who post less seems scummiest to you? I can spend time to re-read, but looking at everyone is just a pain.
Yuma: why? you have reads that strong?
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Yuma: why? you have reads that strong?
no that is the whole point
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Yuma: why? you have reads that strong?
no that is the whole point
Then why not listen to arguments? It's simply irrational to just throw away reasons.
Some things that should be influencing how you shoot:
You're more likely to be (mis)lynched if you don't;
Number-based reasons;
Information sooner;
Other peoples' reads
...
If you don't take those into account (or figure out that the amount that they could be controlled by scum is too much and that they'll probably be corrupted), we'll for sure have a worse chance of winning.
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You're still spreading suspicion.
What does that even mean? In a game centred around there being players who actively want to "kill" everyone else, you're suggesting that we not be suspicious of people?
The important thing is that the way he was casting suspicion made it more likely that people would think we were scum without realizing that the idea originated from him. Characteristics of what he did that do that include:
Not voting (even after a big case on me!);
Keeping the reasons minor and small;
Doing it repeatedly almost the same way each time.
That's why I'm voting for him.
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Then why not listen to arguments? It's simply irrational to just throw away reasons.
Some things that should be influencing how you shoot:
You're more likely to be (mis)lynched if you don't;
Number-based reasons;
Information sooner;
Other peoples' reads
...
If you don't take those into account (or figure out that the amount that they could be controlled by scum is too much and that they'll probably be corrupted), we'll for sure have a worse chance of winning.
I am willing to listen to people telling me who I should potentially shoot. But I will not be told when to shoot--even under threat of lynching. You are assuming that I am not taking into consideration the numbers part--which I am thank you very much and I agree information is good, but information is never a reason to kill someone in my opinion.
So if you want me to shoot, present a good case on why I should shoot them over lynching them and I'll consider it based on my read of you, my read of that specific player and the context of the game.
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So I decided to reread TA and specifically TA and ash interactions. At the beginning of my wagon, TA and ash have a brief argument about assuming the number of scum in games. TA disagrees with ash but decides to vote me anyway. Here's my original argument about TA's vote:
3)
I don't find the scum slip that compelling -- we did this same thing in innovation and it came from town, not scum -- but I DO find this response from Andrew scummy. It's too...calm?
vote:Andrew [/]
TA votes me for defending myself. I'm curious as to what about my defense is scummy and his response is this:
It just reads scummy to me. Sorry, I can't give you better than that right now, and I'm not saying you are super duper 100% scum or anything, but I get a scummy vibe from it.
Leaving me absolutely nothing to dispute. How convenient. Someone thinks my posts are scummy but can't quite articulate it besides saying they're "calm" in the original post. My "calm" posts that TA are referring to are a total of two posts. Here they are:
Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?
Did I accidentally join a drunk mafia game?
:)
I found this, casting suspicion and brushing it off in the same post:
Just re-read TA. He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example. He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though. Not sure why.
There's a little discussion between them about it, and TA re-reads himself (?) And ash responds by reminding him and everyone that TA was a mislynch. The discussion dies after this. Nobody else notices and ash doesn't ask for anyone else's opinion.
I just checked early posts and I see what you mean if you're referring to posts such as #189 and #223. Theyre definitely more analytical than my usual posts lately which I think tend to a more conversational tone. Is this it? I guess an explanation could be that I've been phone posting a lot lately and I actually managed to get down and write out my thoughts coherently. But really idk
That makes sense. I've had a lot of TA lately, so I guess it's just fresh on my mind. I'm specifically referring to when we mislynched you on D1 of Hangman and then your D1 of ZM17 as IC as the games to which I'm comparing you.
You'll recall I had a mistaken scum read on you in Hangman based on one post, but was able to pivot from that to Teproc. Did you mostly phone post in ZM17?
Here's TA's sudgy vote, which I don't think there's much substance to:
I have a town read on ash. I'm starting to realize his tactics (which are basically mine on overload), and all that he has done has seemed like what I would expect from town. I've seen scum ash, and he's usually blatantly obvious about it, argues his way into the center of attention and out of being lynched, gets lynched on D3 or D4, then nobody has anything to go off of because everybody's been talking about him so they lose to his partners. I'm not seeing that here.
This was also a scummy post from Sudgy that I found extremely faked. He also has basically no content except for outside of Andrew. Humm...
Vote: Sudgy
Ash town read on TA:
Alright, caught up.
Honestly, not a lot there. TA and yuma are town reads out of all of this.
There's this brief yuma/TA moment near the end of the day. Why does TA specifically point out him and ash? There are other people who didn't look elsewhere. I think Xeiron, WW, sudgy, Jimm (maybe?), shraeye, XP, are all people who didn't move their vote from me or sudgy.
Well then should I just day-vig one of the players not currently around and hasn't been around?
I mean... we have had time to get a lynch... 10 days if I remember right. I have been trying to get people to look elsewhere the entire game it feels like, so maybe we need to go back and see who has tried to stop looking elsewhere?
I am probably the first person you will find if you look at that...Ash too...but I do agree with the sentiment that the stalled wagons are more likely to be scum.
Part two coming soon but I'm hungry.
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Here's a shraeye response to part of a case faust made on TA. I didn't want to quote the whole thing because it's long and I'm typing my own updated report. When faust says "he tries to discredit yuma" he means TA. Again this comes back to shraeye being NKed while tunneling ash.
That should read "he tries to discredit yuma"
Isn't ash also discrediting yuma? but nonetheless you only have great things to say about ash. suspicious.
Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
Again, mentioning him and ash:
I guess a decent place to start looking is people who didn't want to move away from Andrew/Sudgy (assuming Andrew is town, which I believe). I know I was guilty of this, I think Ash may have been too? People who didn't want to lynch either get some town points I guess, although it's an easy stance for scum to take since I didn't feel anyone was really pushing any other wagons besides Sudgy/Andrew.
And again...
Something that I think is worth analyzing moreso in RMM than normal games is who the night kills are. Since everyone is a PR scum isn't doing much PR-hunting with their kills but rather looking at who they find threatening / who they think they can't get lynched. So once again that incriminates me and Ash...man I am looking scummy.
TA's posts leading up to sudgy's lynch are all about focusing on getting a lynch D1, which doesn't really mean much. But it seemed like he really, really wanted a lynch. There's was also a brief argument between ash and shraeye about a no-lynch. Yuma agreed with shraeye that a no-lynch wouldn't be a bad idea, and TA and ash were on the complete opposite side of the coin. Also neither of them seemed to care whether it was me or sudgy that was lynched, which conflicts with ash's unrelenting tunneling of me most of D1 and into D2.
So that's what I found. Let me know what you guys think or if I missed anything.
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I don't know where that smiley face came from... creepy!
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Concerning ash's town reads on yuma and TA, of course yuma is a town read because of his claim. But TA? And nobody else?
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Vote Count 2.1:
ashersky (3): Archetype, XerxesPraelor, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (1): xeiron
XerxesPraelor (1): ashersky
xeiron (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (4): yuma, Witherweaver, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
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Concerning ash's town reads on yuma and TA, of course yuma is a town read because of his claim. But TA? And nobody else?
I had a pretty good town read on him throughout most of day1... so I don't have a problem with ash having a townread then, and still don't really because reads aren't always going to be the same...
But my read on TA started to shift a bit toward the end of day1 (being ok with both sudgy and Andrew lynches, the blackmailing and some other things I can't remember) maybe not enough to be my favorite lynch, but someone to keep in mind.
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
I would think that I would want to treat you as pretty sure town. That seems a lot safer.
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.
And what would your parents do?
(Also why unwilling to answer the question in a non-cryptic way?)
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Concerning ash's town reads on yuma and TA, of course yuma is a town read because of his claim. But TA? And nobody else?
I had a pretty good town read on him throughout most of day1... so I don't have a problem with ash having a townread then, and still don't really because reads aren't always going to be the same...
But my read on TA started to shift a bit toward the end of day1 (being ok with both sudgy and Andrew lynches, the blackmailing and some other things I can't remember) maybe not enough to be my favorite lynch, but someone to keep in mind.
This is town TA, definitely.
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TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.
On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.
TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.
I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone. You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone. Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do. But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them. That's going at the game of mafia backwards.
As for "not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town," if you do that too often, you lose the game. You realize this? So, you should always be wary of mislynching players. You can't just go willy-nilly, shooting from the hip all the time. It's irresponsible to fellow townies, if you are town.
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.
And what would your parents do?
(Also why unwilling to answer the question in a non-cryptic way?)
My scumpartners, not my parents.
The theory here is that you do not need three persons to cast suspicion on one guy. Actually one is probably to much unless there actually is something suspicious to point out.
In this case I think you are acting sucpicious, because I have problems with seeing your town motive for claiming. Why claim D1, when you apparently have no plan of using your power in the near future?
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I feel like there are a number of players just skating by, and it's an easy place for scum to hide. I'd say faust, both Xs, ADK, shraeye and maybe Jimmmmm fit into that description? Obviously can't all be scum, but seems like a good place to hide.
You could take out a lurker, if you are compulsive and don't have strong reads. shraeye, either X, etc.
I think the thought process if I was a dayvig who had to shoot today...
2) Is there consensus on a target from the majority of players? How do I feel about those who agree? Then...
I'd say sudgy and the two Xs are on the scummy end of the Andrew wagon, and are probably in the "fine to lynch, so fine for yuma to shoot" category, so if I was looking for a suspicious bus (or scum helping along a mislynch), it'd be those two.
Here are all the times ash refers to me before his case. Most of them cast general suspicion on me without giving enough reason or a vote, and that's scummy. Notice that ash never voted for me until just very recently.
Here, let me trim those down to relevant sentences for you. See, when you actually quote what matters, it isn't so big and impressive looking, which was clearly your goal. I say this because you NEVER quote stuff in your arguments, you just make one line posts calling people scummy and whatnot.
So...I say scum may be hiding in the lurker group, and mention you among six lurkers at the time. WOW, so crazy! Look at me CASTING GENERAL SUSPICION!
The second quote, again, about lurkers. That "etc." there means I listed some examples out of a group.
The third quote is not about lurkers, but about people being on the suspicious positions of the Andrew wagon, and particularly about those who may be bussing Andrew. This is actually suspicious.
As for my vote on you -- your admission to targeting someone who died last night and the terribly easy to fake claim to go with it which is impossible to verify was enough to put me over the top. I'd say you are likely partners with Andrew, if I'm right about him. But where there are players who at least disagree with me about Andrew's play, no one seems to be buying what you are selling.
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You're still spreading suspicion.
What does that even mean? In a game centred around there being players who actively want to "kill" everyone else, you're suggesting that we not be suspicious of people?
The important thing is that the way he was casting suspicion made it more likely that people would think we were scum without realizing that the idea originated from him. Characteristics of what he did that do that include:
Not voting (even after a big case on me!);
Keeping the reasons minor and small;
Doing it repeatedly almost the same way each time.
That's why I'm voting for him.
Can you quote my "big case" on you? I'm not sure I've ever made a single-post case on you at all.
Who says the reasons are minor or small? Bussing Andrew, buddying, changing your playstyle; these aren't minor.
I'm pretty sure you are as repetitive as anyone here.
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Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
What does that bolded line mean? And where do you get that? Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy. My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through. Sudgy was the only other option. You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.
I never should have bought your crap on D1, though. It's clear you were lying through your teeth.
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@ash...
yawn....
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Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
Not sure what you're looking to get out of this question. I like it as a theory discussion, but in game you have to expect any number of answers that probably won't tell you anything useful.
Honestly, it's such a confirmable claim (all day powers are) that everyone needs to believe it until you can't confirm it, and then you get lynched. Because of that, it's very unlikely to be a fakeclaim from scum. I think scum wants to push you to shoot at a time that is most opportune for them -- that is, when you are espousing bad reads (which you wouldn't know are bad).
Has anyone stuck out to you as particularly worried about your reads of them? I think scum are going to be a bit more jumpy than they would normally be about your reads if they are accurate because it isn't about beating a wagon, it's about beating you head to head.
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@ash...
yawn....
Am I boring you?
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My scumpartners, not my parents.
The theory here is that you do not need three persons to cast suspicion on one guy. Actually one is probably to much unless there actually is something suspicious to point out.
In this case I think you are acting sucpicious, because I have problems with seeing your town motive for claiming. Why claim D1, when you apparently have no plan of using your power in the near future?
Ha... totally misread that. Ok I see what you are saying. But keep in mind that you can't coordinate--unless there is daytalk--it because I claimed right off the bat day1. So I guess you are saying that you would have sat back and seen what your partners would have done. If they had attacked me you woulnd't have. If they hadn't you would have?
As for the rest... I claimed because I felt it was the best move. 1. It provided town with what I consider to be a pseduo-IC for all intents and purposes. Someone to trust and rely upon. Not a perfect IC I admit, but for me to be scum I would either have to be lying--unlikely I think you will admit--or scum with the power I said I had--even more unlikely I think you will admit. So while I never sought complete IC status, part of my reasoning was that I expected--and saw--that most people would believe me and would respond positively to my suggestions and ideas 2. there was no drawback... as I believe I am a PR that is expendeble. My power is more often negative utiltiy than positive and if I died I didn't think it would be a big loss. However, it also created a WIFOM situation for scum to decide if I was worth a NK--I kinda hoped I would take in a NK last night, but that wasn't the case.
As for not having a plan to use my power. Who says I don't have a plan. Perhaps my criteria for such a situation where my plan would work hasn't bee fulfilled yet. I might use my power in the future, I might not, it depends on what happens in the game itself.
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TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.
On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.
TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.
I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone. You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone. Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do. But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them. That's going at the game of mafia backwards.
The very first sentence is me saying TA reason for not voting you isn't a good one. Is your post addressed to TA or what? I'm confused.
As for "not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town," if you do that too often, you lose the game. You realize this? So, you should always be wary of mislynching players. You can't just go willy-nilly, shooting from the hip all the time. It's irresponsible to fellow townies, if you are town.
When have I ever been willy-nilly about lynching someone? I pretty much onky vote for someone that I have a case on and that I feel strongly is scum and I probably have three or four votes in this entire game. Maybe one RVS vote, a TA vote, a sudgy vote, and now my vote on you. How can you possibly accuse me of something like that?
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@ash...
yawn....
Am I boring you?
Honestly a little bit... I guess I will just honestly state that I am more or less ignoring your argument with Andrew at the moment... I don't see a lot of information to gain from it either way. I think Andrew is town, but I am not sure he is correct in his read on you, but you both seem to be miss understanding what each other is saying and creating large quote walls of text to read--or in my case ignore--I am not going to tell you to stop, but rather just say that I don't think your posts are as effective as you might hope they are
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Not sure what you're looking to get out of this question.
I don't know what to look for expect and I am not necessarily saying that I will get reads from the answers, but more as a theory question itself, because I am not sure if I am thinking right.
Basically I started off thinking that the people who were voicing suspicion of me were more likely to be scum--wanting to keep ICs from being created and justifying why I wasn't killed to make me a potential mislynch down the road and make my reads less reliable.
But I am not so sure if that is how scum would respond to me. I feel more like what WW said... that scum would just kinda go with the flow with me and not make any waves in my direction--especially given my power.
So right now I am starting to become suspicious of people who havne't voiced any suspicion of me, but I am not sure if my thinking is correct.
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Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
What does that bolded line mean? And where do you get that? Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy. My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through. Sudgy was the only other option. You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.
I never should have bought your crap on D1, though. It's clear you were lying through your teeth.
Out of context? Exactly what is out of context here? I explained what my role is and instead of weighing the possibility of it being a fakeclaim you jump ship, which is the safest thing for scum to do in that situation.
I guess now you're convinced it's a fakeclaim because you think I'm scum? You thought I was scum all D1 so why didn't the possibility of it being a fakeclaim occur to you when I was at L-1?
Scumslip maybe?
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TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.
On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.
TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.
I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone. You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone. Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do. But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them. That's going at the game of mafia backwards.
The very first sentence is me saying TA reason for not voting you isn't a good one. Is your post addressed to TA or what? I'm confused.
That very first sentence is what I was addressing. You are lambasting TA for his reason for not voting for someone. But that's a silly argument to make -- you aren't supposed to be looking at "reason NOT to vote player A #1, #2, and #3, you are supposed to be looking for reasons TO vote.
You are picking out something someone said to be a reason not to vote and attacking it. Attacking players for their town reads doesn't make sense, though. People need to talk about reasons TO vote, not reasons NOT to vote.
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Can we back up here a second?
Andrewis, what was the original point you were making with your big two-post with lots of quotes? Were you making an argument against TA or Ash, or them as a team?
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Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
What does that bolded line mean? And where do you get that? Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy. My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through. Sudgy was the only other option. You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.
I never should have bought your crap on D1, though. It's clear you were lying through your teeth.
Out of context? Exactly what is out of context here? I explained what my role is and instead of weighing the possibility of it being a fakeclaim you jump ship, which is the safest thing for scum to do in that situation.
I guess now you're convinced it's a fakeclaim because you think I'm scum? You thought I was scum all D1 so why didn't the possibility of it being a fakeclaim occur to you when I was at L-1?
Scumslip maybe?
Clearly I thought about the chance it was a fake claim; that's why I asked you to try and explain it. It was under pressure, I expected you to either be able to explain it right away or fumble. You didn't fumble, the lynch was moving away, it was the safe call at the time.
I think it's hilarious that you are trying to use the "I was fake claiming and you didn't pick up on it so you must be scum!" argument. L-1 deadline claims are always snap judgements: believe or not believe? If you were telling the truth, it would have been a travesty to lynch you. Go back and read games where we used to lynch claimed cops on D1.
If you aren't scum, I will eat joth's hat.
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@ash...
yawn....
Am I boring you?
Honestly a little bit... I guess I will just honestly state that I am more or less ignoring your argument with Andrew at the moment... I don't see a lot of information to gain from it either way. I think Andrew is town, but I am not sure he is correct in his read on you, but you both seem to be miss understanding what each other is saying and creating large quote walls of text to read--or in my case ignore--I am not going to tell you to stop, but rather just say that I don't think your posts are as effective as you might hope they are
Sorry I'm not entertaining you. Seems I'm just wasting everyone's time here.
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Sorry I'm not entertaining you. Seems I'm just wasting everyone's time here.
Well I am not asking to be entertained...but I feel that the conversation has moved soooo far beyond me--and probably everyone else--that it has become a conversation just between you and andrew where I am guessing that it has more to do with pride (on both sides) and OMGUS (on both sides) and emotions (on both sides) than actual scumhunting...
If there is real scumhunting then it is getting lost in the layers of quotes and everything else. So i am not saying entertain me, but perhaps take a step back and present your case succinctly rather than just argue with Andrew about it? Not trying to hurt your feelings, just saying that I think what you are saying is being lost on most of us.
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I didn't say I was fake claiming, just that after everything you did D1 you didn't discuss the possibility of it being a fakeclaim until D2 when I'm still alive. If it was a fakeclaim why would I fumble? I assume (uh oh) fakeclaims are written out the same way as legit roles?
Can we back up here a second?
Andrewis, what was the original point you were making with your big two-post with lots of quotes? Were you making an argument against TA or Ash, or them as a team?
I was assessing the possibility of ash and TA as partners.
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I understand where you're coming from, yuma. After all, I sat back watching you and ash debate Occum's Razor and assumptions for a while which I felt didn't really move the game forward. But I'm explaining my case on ash and we're having a debate about it. Anybody can jump in at any time but I apologize if it's not helpful.
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Sorry I'm not entertaining you. Seems I'm just wasting everyone's time here.
Well I am not asking to be entertained...but I feel that the conversation has moved soooo far beyond me--and probably everyone else--that it has become a conversation just between you and andrew where I am guessing that it has more to do with pride (on both sides) and OMGUS (on both sides) and emotions (on both sides) than actual scumhunting...
If there is real scumhunting then it is getting lost in the layers of quotes and everything else. So i am not saying entertain me, but perhaps take a step back and present your case succinctly rather than just argue with Andrew about it? Not trying to hurt your feelings, just saying that I think what you are saying is being lost on most of us.
Bullet points for summary purposes, all of this is available in those posts you don't want to read:
1) Scumslip where he accidentally showed he had more knowledge of the setup than a town player
2) Flailing response to a small (at first) wagon based on that scumslip
3) Argumentative in all responses to cases/points/posts against/about him; responses based on emotions/feelings instead of facts/words
4) Strong claim at the end of D1 and yet survives N1 with two other players dying, suggesting he wasn't even targeted for a night kill and saved
5) Delayed OMGUS (pro scum tactic)
6) Buddying of Xerxes, yuma on D2
7) Scum reads only on those who suspected him
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I understand where you're coming from, yuma. After all, I sat back watching you and ash debate Occum's Razor and assumptions for a while which I felt didn't really move the game forward. But I'm explaining my case on ash and we're having a debate about it. Anybody can jump in at any time but I apologize if it's not helpful.
If we had lynched you as I pressed from the beginning, we'd be that much closer to winning. I lost the debate with yuma, you survived, congrats.
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Should I just flip a coin and dayvig either andrew or ashersky to settle this argument?
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Should I just flip a coin and dayvig either andrew or ashersky to settle this argument?
I suggest alphabetical order.
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Should I just flip a coin and dayvig either andrew or ashersky to settle this argument?
I suggest alphabetical order.
sounds fair to me...
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Buddying where? And everyone save yuma and ADK have voted me (right?) So 7 isn't even a point of discussion. The others I've discussed endlessly. No need for more arguing because that would fall under number 3, which apparently is a scum tactic. So I'm done.
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Should I just flip a coin and dayvig either andrew or ashersky to settle this argument?
No, I lean town on both.
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Buddying where? And everyone save yuma and ADK have voted me (right?) So 7 isn't even a point of discussion. The others I've discussed endlessly. No need for more arguing because that would fall under number 3, which apparently is a scum tactic. So I'm done.
8) Uses false indignation to end the discussion.
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And that 8) should be an 8).
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Vote: AndrewisFTTW
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Vote: AndrewisFTTW
Why? His reaction seems more justified today than on Day 1.
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I have a hard time believing scum would keep him alive with his power. I also just read over like four pages of him fighting with ash and he just seemed generally scummy.
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Vote: AndrewisFTTW
didn't see that coming...
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If... and this is a major if because I still think it is highly unlikely... Andrew is scum I would bet that ADK is also scum looking to bus now in D2
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Looking back I feel like he hasn't posted anything in this game that hasn't been indignant fighting with ashersky. I would totally be on board with you dayvigging him.
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If... and this is a major if because I still think it is highly unlikely... Andrew is scum I would bet that ADK is also scum looking to bus now in D2
And if Andrew is Town?
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If... and this is a major if because I still think it is highly unlikely... Andrew is scum I would bet that ADK is also scum looking to bus now in D2
I don't understand why that's more likely than the situation where Andrew is scum and ADK is town that thinks Andrew is scummy.
I haven't seen much at all to indicate ADK is scum, and that explanation makes sense, though there would be other reasons for scum not targeting Andrew (basically the same set that was discussed for you, except the part about controlling the dayvig).
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I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Okay I'm an idiot. I thought when you said "wasn't even targeted" you meant wasn't targeted in any way, not even by the doctor. Then I was confused because you had doctor. But I think you just meant wasn't targeted for a night kill.
Yeah, but my post was still pointless.
I've been on the road for a few days playing physically exhausting music with very little sleep, so I apologize if I don't make sense sometimes. I think I was saying I was surprised yuma wasn't targeted for a NK and that since there were two NKs, I guess that means there's a third party. So yeah, nothing of importance and I suck. End.
Why did you post a pointless post? And then why did you point out it was pointless?
You said what you said because yuma being alive, or others dying, or something triggered a reaction. Why that happened in unclear. It could be that you believed doctoring yuma would result in no deaths last night. It could be that you tried to kill yuma last night and were surprised he lived. But it means something, so you can't get us to stop thinking about it with a post like this.
Well the only ones who claimed if I remember correctly were me and yuma so I figured scum would lynch a vig over me so I was surprised when shraeye and faust were killed and yuma wasnt. That's about as far as that post goes. I know it's a dumb post, that's why I said it's pointless.
But.. arghh! If you thought Yuma was the most likely to be lynched why wouldn't you use your doctor ability on him? And if you did use your doctor ability, why would you be surprised when he wasn't killed?
Andrew did you ever respond to this? I didn't see it.
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No and I'm not going to.
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Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
What does that bolded line mean? And where do you get that? Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy. My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through. Sudgy was the only other option. You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.
I never should have bought your crap on D1, though. It's clear you were lying through your teeth.
Andrewis has a point here. If it was "believable enough" then, why isn't it now?
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No and I'm not going to.
townread on axxle
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I mean Andrew.
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I agree with a townread on Andrew. Witherweaver is acting towny as well, he has become a clear townread to me troughout D2.
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I agree with a townread on Andrew. Witherweaver is acting towny as well, he has become a clear townread to me troughout D2.
Okay, well, I can come up with a town reason, but I would have liked to hear Andrewis say it. I find that line of discussion really odd, but I don't have any scum reads on anything else he's said today.
Ash I still feel scummy about. I don't know why he went gunning after Andrewis today. It seemed to start out "okay I guess he's town" then moves to "nevermind you're a liar".
Yuma.. is an enigma. But probably a town enigma. Or he's an armed lunatic that is going to gun us all down.
TwistedArcher .. Well, with a mislynch yesterday and two town PR's gone during the night, he was pretty much the first person to come out trying to find targets on Day 2. He seemed to be looking at everything and considering options. Seems more like a town thing than a scum thing to me. I think scum would want to stay quieter.
The rest of the people.. I don't really have much on. I think they've all been very quiet.
Jimm, Xeiron, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel (warned he would be gone), Xerxes. In general I don't know what to think about this group as they all seem involved only very subtly.
I guess I have some thoughts on Xerxes. He flavor claimed out of the blue on day 1, and then role claimed unprompted on day 2. And his target died, so the claim (which I assume would normally be easy to confirm) can't be confirmed. Okay that's suspicious. On the other hand, flavor and role match up pretty well. Not what I would have guessed, but it makes sense. Comes out voting Ash and I don't really follow his explanation.
Xeiron. There was a lot of talk about him being super scummy towards the end of Day 1. I think from Andrew. I didn't really follow it, so I'll have to go back.
Archetype.. very quiet. Comes out with a vote on Ash without much of a reason, except saying he wanted to do it yesterday. I'm not sure why he wanted to do it yesterday. And a very confusing argument about Andrew being alive incriminating Ash. I don't think it makes sense. If anything is to be gained from the Andrew is alive, ADK's point seemed more reasonable. So suspicious.
Jimm.. everyone thinks he's scummy. I don't recall much explanation though. I'll have to look back here too.
A Drowned Kernel. Hasn't said a lot, but he said he'd be absent.
So, great, I'm back to being confused. The person here I have a scum feeling on is Ash, and the two people that I find most suspicious otherwise are voting against Ash. I think we need to hear more thoughts from the quiet crowd.
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If... and this is a major if because I still think it is highly unlikely... Andrew is scum I would bet that ADK is also scum looking to bus now in D2
And if Andrew is Town?
I don't know...
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If... and this is a major if because I still think it is highly unlikely... Andrew is scum I would bet that ADK is also scum looking to bus now in D2
I don't understand why that's more likely than the situation where Andrew is scum and ADK is town that thinks Andrew is scummy.
I haven't seen much at all to indicate ADK is scum, and that explanation makes sense, though there would be other reasons for scum not targeting Andrew (basically the same set that was discussed for you, except the part about controlling the dayvig).
Because I can see a narrative where if ADK and Andrew are both scum, then they would have had a conversation wherein something like this was said "man people are going to be suspicious about Andrew after yesterday+plus not dying, so it would probably be good for ADK to think about bussing early in case I do flip tomorrow" combined with the strong read on him being town and then suddenly switching today when really nothing has really changed.
Like I said, I don't think it is the case, but if Andrew flips scum here I am calling this a potential buss.
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Soooo... we need something to go off here. We are kinda at a standstill. At least I know I am. I feel like I have a number of townier reads and some reads on the scummier side but nothing extremely strong... I don't know how to alleviate that. I was kinda hoping for some beneficial claiming of results (not claiming willy nilly but real results with real meaning...) to give us something to go off. (Although given my role I think I am more inclined to the mass claiming side...)
imma gonna go vote: jimmmm. Still think he was a better lynch choice than sudgy or andrew but it never gained traction and I haven't seen anything today to make me think otherwise.
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Soooo... we need something to go off here. We are kinda at a standstill. At least I know I am. I feel like I have a number of townier reads and some reads on the scummier side but nothing extremely strong... I don't know how to alleviate that. I was kinda hoping for some beneficial claiming of results (not claiming willy nilly but real results with real meaning...) to give us something to go off. (Although given my role I think I am more inclined to the mass claiming side...)
imma gonna go vote: jimmmm. Still think he was a better lynch choice than sudgy or andrew but it never gained traction and I haven't seen anything today to make me think otherwise.
I think people should be gunshy about claiming stuff, unless it's having caught scum. I mean, everyone needs to make their own decisions, of course, but there are ways other than claiming to make things known.
I made the point on D1 that this Jimmmmm was familiar to the early days Jimmmmm that was my scumpartner in Super Mario. Not much came of that, and he hasn't posted much otherwise. I do have this nagging feeling that what he has posted has read towny to me, though. He does that "reactive question thing" when he's town.
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So I've been trying to work my way into this game with re-reads etc but slowly coming to the depressing conclusion that I simply have no idea who scum are. yuma, ash, you're both Town reads for me - is there someone or something you think it would be helpful for me to look at more closely?
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So I've been trying to work my way into this game with re-reads etc but slowly coming to the depressing conclusion that I simply have no idea who scum are. yuma, ash, you're both Town reads for me - is there someone or something you think it would be helpful for me to look at more closely?
So...I think the major "events" so far this game have been the Andrew Affair, the yuma dayvig claim, and the xerxespraelor mailman claim. There has been relatively little movement on anything at all by anyone other than the most active players, which does allow for scum lurking to work well here.
If you were going to do targeted re-reads, I'd say choose someone middle of the packish on posts. I don't think scum would egregiously lurk, but I think they might let the loudmouths like us run the show.
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Post count:
1. Archetype (44)
2. yuma (160)
3. XerxesPraelor (27)
4. xeiron (36)
6. Twistedarcher (111)
7. Witherweaver (88)
10. A Drowned Kernel (30)
11. AndrewisFTTW (13)
12. Jimmmmm (61)
13. ashersky (184)
This doesn't remove pre-game.
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Re-ordered...
Most active --- ashersky, yuma, Andrew, TA, witherweaver, Jimmmmm, Archetype, Xeiron, ADK, Xerxes --- least active
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Andrew is 130, not 13.
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Most active --- ashersky, yuma, Andrew, TA, witherweaver, Jimmmmm, Archetype, Xeiron, ADK, Xerxes --- least active
Wow, there are 4 people less active than me?!
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Most active --- ashersky, yuma, Andrew, TA, witherweaver, Jimmmmm, Archetype, Xeiron, ADK, Xerxes --- least active
Wow, there are 4 people less active than me?!
Based on # of posts, yes.
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Posting so I don't get prodded.
I've been somewhat busy, but I'll be rereading Jimmmmm (to investigate scumminess) and Andrew (prove Townieness) soon.
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I've been somewhat busy, but I'll be rereading Jimmmmm (to investigate scumminess) and Andrew (prove Townieness) soon.
You're re-reading with preconceived bias?
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I've been somewhat busy, but I'll be rereading Jimmmmm (to investigate scumminess) and Andrew (prove Townieness) soon.
You're re-reading with preconceived bias?
I've stated before that I have a townread on Andrew because of his claim. I'm going to try and find other stuff that shows everyone else that he's town.
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If we had time (we don't), someone could figure out if these claims match the flavor.
This was from right before deadline. Is this still worth doing with the other claims? Andrew seemed to think that the flavor fakeclaims mentioned in the setup post would involve appropriate role fakeclaims.
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Vote Count 2.2:
ashersky (3): Archetype, XerxesPraelor, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (2): xeiron, yuma
XerxesPraelor (1): ashersky
xeiron (1): Twistedarcher
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
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If we had time (we don't), someone could figure out if these claims match the flavor.
This was from right before deadline. Is this still worth doing with the other claims? Andrew seemed to think that the flavor fakeclaims mentioned in the setup post would involve appropriate role fakeclaims.
I don't see why not. Otherwise a mass flavorclaim would catch scum. There's certainly enough characters. But anyway...
I'm Nynaeve. If you're not familiar with the WOT series, Nynaeve is able to channel but only when she's angry. Thus when someone targets me I get angry, I channel, and I both doctor and roleblock whoever I target.
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If we had time (we don't), someone could figure out if these claims match the flavor.
This was from right before deadline. Is this still worth doing with the other claims? Andrew seemed to think that the flavor fakeclaims mentioned in the setup post would involve appropriate role fakeclaims.
I have been keeping an eye on claims, and every claim and flip up to now shows that flavor and role is closely corrolated.
I do not think it is worth more flavorclaiming to check this already claimed roles. I see andrew just did, I say yuma should not.
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If we had time (we don't), someone could figure out if these claims match the flavor.
This was from right before deadline. Is this still worth doing with the other claims? Andrew seemed to think that the flavor fakeclaims mentioned in the setup post would involve appropriate role fakeclaims.
I don't see why not. Otherwise a mass flavorclaim would catch scum. There's certainly enough characters. But anyway...
I'm Nynaeve. If you're not familiar with the WOT series, Nynaeve is able to channel but only when she's angry. Thus when someone targets me I get angry, I channel, and I both doctor and roleblock whoever I target.
Well, that was certainly my guess. Nynaeve is the strongest healer so doctor fits. She's also extremely strong with the One Power and was the one that ended up shielding and "enslaving" a Forsaken, so Roleblock fits too. And your explanation of lashing out and doing both when targeted fits as well.
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Re-ordered...
Most active --- ashersky, yuma, Andrew, TA, witherweaver, Jimmmmm, Archetype, Xeiron, ADK, Xerxes --- least active
I think we will find most scum in the lower half of the post count.
I could easy see Jimmm or ADK as scum, and I have no better than null-reads on xerxes and Archetype.
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Didn't even think of the healing and Moghedian aspects. Nice.
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Didn't even think of the healing and Moghedian aspects. Nice.
Well if you would have said almost anyone else with the Doctor role, I would have jumped on you. I mean technically it fits any Aes Sedai, but why put it on anyone that isn't Nynaeve?
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I just finished Fires of Heaven so I don't even think Nynaeve has done much healing yet but that's ok, I don't mind spoilers.
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I just finished Fires of Heaven so I don't even think Nynaeve has done much healing yet but that's ok, I don't mind spoilers.
It's hinted upon in the earlier novels. She was the Wisdom of their village, which is a natural kind of caregiver/doctor position. At least someone knowledgeable about herbs and such. And Nynaeve was always naturally good at it. It's revealed early on (when you find out she can Channel), that she was so good at it because she instinctively used the One Power. You eventually find out she is quite uber at it.
Anyway, we're off topic.
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My scumpartners, not my parents.
The theory here is that you do not need three persons to cast suspicion on one guy. Actually one is probably to much unless there actually is something suspicious to point out.
In this case I think you are acting sucpicious, because I have problems with seeing your town motive for claiming. Why claim D1, when you apparently have no plan of using your power in the near future?
Ha... totally misread that. Ok I see what you are saying. But keep in mind that you can't coordinate--unless there is daytalk--it because I claimed right off the bat day1. So I guess you are saying that you would have sat back and seen what your partners would have done. If they had attacked me you woulnd't have. If they hadn't you would have?
As for the rest... I claimed because I felt it was the best move. 1. It provided town with what I consider to be a pseduo-IC for all intents and purposes. Someone to trust and rely upon. Not a perfect IC I admit, but for me to be scum I would either have to be lying--unlikely I think you will admit--or scum with the power I said I had--even more unlikely I think you will admit. So while I never sought complete IC status, part of my reasoning was that I expected--and saw--that most people would believe me and would respond positively to my suggestions and ideas 2. there was no drawback... as I believe I am a PR that is expendeble. My power is more often negative utiltiy than positive and if I died I didn't think it would be a big loss. However, it also created a WIFOM situation for scum to decide if I was worth a NK--I kinda hoped I would take in a NK last night, but that wasn't the case.
As for not having a plan to use my power. Who says I don't have a plan. Perhaps my criteria for such a situation where my plan would work hasn't bee fulfilled yet. I might use my power in the future, I might not, it depends on what happens in the game itself.
OK, I can see that it makes kind of sense for you to do as you did as town. And I admit that it is unlikely that you are lying, and even more unlikely that you are scum with daykill. It is like Ashersky said it:
Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:
Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?
Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?
Not sure what you're looking to get out of this question. I like it as a theory discussion, but in game you have to expect any number of answers that probably won't tell you anything useful.
Honestly, it's such a confirmable claim (all day powers are) that everyone needs to believe it until you can't confirm it, and then you get lynched. Because of that, it's very unlikely to be a fakeclaim from scum. I think scum wants to push you to shoot at a time that is most opportune for them -- that is, when you are espousing bad reads (which you wouldn't know are bad).
Has anyone stuck out to you as particularly worried about your reads of them? I think scum are going to be a bit more jumpy than they would normally be about your reads if they are accurate because it isn't about beating a wagon, it's about beating you head to head.
But the question here is, If you do not shoot anybody, how long do we wait before we conclude that you cannot confirm you claim, and lynch you. Three days. Four? I am not comfortable with waiting much more that today.
Yuma, I think you are bold enough as scum to try just something like claiming dayvig and try to get away with it for as long as you can. And what worries me is that you are in a ridiculous good situation if you are scum. As a semi-IC you have quite a lot influence on who we lynch, Including pretty much removing yourself from the lynchpool. It means that you could probably get yourself and your teammates safely to D3 (only fearing any third party). And even if we lynch you tomorrow, your teammates are quite good off.
That is why it would ease my mind if you shoot someone today.
I would also like to hear from everyone. How many days should we wait before yuma have to prove his claim or be lynched?
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I'm going to be super suspicious of Yuma if he doesn't shoot today. I can explain why but it'll be giving some of my role away.
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When's deadline here?
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When's deadline here?
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
Apologies for not including deadline in vote counts.
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I'm going to be super suspicious of Yuma if he doesn't shoot today. I can explain why but it'll be giving some of my role away.
Well be prepared to explain, I am not shooting until I have a pretty good reason to... i.e. I will not be shooting into the dark based solely off my reads... which is to say that I am not compulsive today
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That is why it would ease my mind if you shoot someone today.
I would also like to hear from everyone. How many days should we wait before yuma have to prove his claim or be lynched?
I am not going to shoot to ease your mind, nor will I shoot under threat of a lynch. I will not risk shooting someone more pro-town than me over having you lynch me and lose my mixed utility role.
I don't value vigs that highly, especially in a RMM game. I would be more willing to die than be dictated when to shoot.
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I'm going to be super suspicious of Yuma if he doesn't shoot today. I can explain why but it'll be giving some of my role away.
Well be prepared to explain, I am not shooting until I have a pretty good reason to... i.e. I will not be shooting into the dark based solely off my reads... which is to say that I am not compulsive today
If you weren't you, looking at you with this claim, what chance do you think there is that you would be lying about the entire thing?
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I'm going to be super suspicious of Yuma if he doesn't shoot today. I can explain why but it'll be giving some of my role away.
Well be prepared to explain, I am not shooting until I have a pretty good reason to... i.e. I will not be shooting into the dark based solely off my reads... which is to say that I am not compulsive today
If you weren't you, looking at you with this claim, what chance do you think there is that you would be lying about the entire thing?
2% yesterday. 4% today. 8% Day3 32% Day4 etc etc etc
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I mean... really it is a silly proposition that people are putting forth.
Really the only one that makes sense is me being a DayVig SK--which would be cool--but would require:
1. there to be a SK - possible given the pre-game info
2. mail-mi to come up with the role - possible but unlikely given no one else has thought of it before
3. me to think that claiming right out of the gates was the best way to do it and more important
4. not use a shot day1 and indicate that I am not using a shot today
5. the presence of a NK (ok, yes this could still hold true that if I use a Dayshot I lose my NK)
So there is the possibility. I think pretty unlikely off the bat. Yes the longer I stay alive (and other mafia/SK aren't flipped) the more likely something is fishy is up, but still drastically low.
Because for me to be doing what xeiron suggested would require me to claim w/o knowing if another player had said role. I get what xeiron is saying that I would basically be sacrificing myself for chaos and semi-IC status and 2 or 3 days of trying as hard as possible to not get my teammates lynched. All that sounds ok, but would require me to risk being counter claimed. Dayvigs aren't the most common role in the world, but I would say we have had 3-4 of them. Enough to make it a pretty big risk. Add in the threat of a normal vig--very common in RMm--and it would be extremely risky.
So yeah, I think that if I live and haven't proved myself over a series of days then suspicion might be justified. But this is day2 and I WILL NOT be intimidated into shooting if I do not think it is an opportune time to shoot. If you think lynching me is a good play instead then you must believe something very contrary to everything I just laid out and common sense.
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Who said anything about you being a dayvig sk instead of just lying? That's what I'm more concerned about.
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Who said anything about you being a dayvig sk instead of just lying? That's what I'm more concerned about.
I feel like I just addressed the "lying" idea above. Please reread and get back to me?
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I mean... really it is a silly proposition that people are putting forth.
Really the only one that makes sense is me being a DayVig SK--which would be cool--but would require:
1. there to be a SK - possible given the pre-game info
2. mail-mi to come up with the role - possible but unlikely given no one else has thought of it before
3. me to think that claiming right out of the gates was the best way to do it and more important
4. not use a shot day1 and indicate that I am not using a shot today
5. the presence of a NK (ok, yes this could still hold true that if I use a Dayshot I lose my NK)
So there is the possibility. I think pretty unlikely off the bat. Yes the longer I stay alive (and other mafia/SK aren't flipped) the more likely something is fishy is up, but still drastically low.
Because for me to be doing what xeiron suggested would require me to claim w/o knowing if another player had said role. I get what xeiron is saying that I would basically be sacrificing myself for chaos and semi-IC status and 2 or 3 days of trying as hard as possible to not get my teammates lynched. All that sounds ok, but would require me to risk being counter claimed. Dayvigs aren't the most common role in the world, but I would say we have had 3-4 of them. Enough to make it a pretty big risk. Add in the threat of a normal vig--very common in RMm--and it would be extremely risky.
So yeah, I think that if I live and haven't proved myself over a series of days then suspicion might be justified. But this is day2 and I WILL NOT be intimidated into shooting if I do not think it is an opportune time to shoot. If you think lynching me is a good play instead then you must believe something very contrary to everything I just laid out and common sense.
Yep.
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So I'd say the possibilities for yuma are:
1) Telling the truth about being a Dayvig
2) Is actually a Dayvig SK
3) Is actually an SK that can opt to Dayvig instead of nightkill
4) Is actually just scum with a dayvig
5) Is lying scum going crazy gambit
6) Is lying town going crazy gambit
Probablility chart, from most likely to least, for me, is:
1 > 3 > 6 > 4 > 5 > 2
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Great. That said... why are we talking about me, who has a higher than average % of being town, instead of scum hunting?
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Great. That said... why are we talking about me, who has a higher than average % of being town, instead of scum hunting?
We're here. Scum has to be lurking. It's pretty egregious.
My extended VLA starts in like 6 hours.
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Want to vote Jimmm with me?
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Want to vote Jimmm with me?
Do you have a like a case case? Or is it gut?
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I mean... really it is a silly proposition that people are putting forth.
Really the only one that makes sense is me being a DayVig SK--which would be cool--but would require:
1. there to be a SK - possible given the pre-game info
2. mail-mi to come up with the role - possible but unlikely given no one else has thought of it before
3. me to think that claiming right out of the gates was the best way to do it and more important
4. not use a shot day1 and indicate that I am not using a shot today
5. the presence of a NK (ok, yes this could still hold true that if I use a Dayshot I lose my NK)
So there is the possibility. I think pretty unlikely off the bat. Yes the longer I stay alive (and other mafia/SK aren't flipped) the more likely something is fishy is up, but still drastically low.
Because for me to be doing what xeiron suggested would require me to claim w/o knowing if another player had said role. I get what xeiron is saying that I would basically be sacrificing myself for chaos and semi-IC status and 2 or 3 days of trying as hard as possible to not get my teammates lynched. All that sounds ok, but would require me to risk being counter claimed. Dayvigs aren't the most common role in the world, but I would say we have had 3-4 of them. Enough to make it a pretty big risk. Add in the threat of a normal vig--very common in RMm--and it would be extremely risky.
So yeah, I think that if I live and haven't proved myself over a series of days then suspicion might be justified. But this is day2 and I WILL NOT be intimidated into shooting if I do not think it is an opportune time to shoot. If you think lynching me is a good play instead then you must believe something very contrary to everything I just laid out and common sense.
So there probably is an SK: (1) It makes a lot of flavor sense. (2) The possibility was explicitly mentioned in the setup post. (3) Two people died last night. I know there are other explanations to (3), but an SK is (I'm guessing, new at mafia here) the most common one. But okay that would imply a day SK AND a night SK. I don't see why that's not possible (and I can justify it in flavor), but I have no idea if it would be done or not. So (3) is probably a point against there being a day SK.
Secondly, a Dayvig SK makes a lot of flavor sense. I could see any of the following characters be a third faction that can kill during the day:
(i) Elaida: Not Black Ajah but a real bitch and caused all kinds of problems for the "good guys". She was one of the biggest enemies that wasn't a darkfriend.
(ii) Children of the Light: Like a lord inquisitor or whatever. Not darkfriends (except for some infiltrators) but was another enemy to the good guys. And they did it under the symbol of the Light. They were a real problem and ever reader hated them with a passion.
(iii) Padan Fain/Mordeth: Night killing makes a lot more sense for him, but hey he could basically do whatever he wants. He had pretty singular powers and abilities.
Okay so I'm not trying to make a case. I just wanted to point out that it's possible. I don't have any idea whether or not it's likely in this setup because I don't really have any feeling of balancing roles or anything like that.
Though, if I recall the setup phrases it in the singular:
there may or may not be a third party role like a Serial Killer or Survivor.
Now you can argue it should be phrased this way regardless, but if you're writing this and you know there are multiple third-party roles, you may naturally pluralize things. So maybe only a single third party is the most likely case.
So, I'm thinking that two deaths during the night *probably* means a regular (night) Serial Killer. Which probably makes it less likely that's there's also a daytime serial killer.
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Want to vote Jimmm with me?
Can you recap the case against Jimmm?
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Want to vote Jimmm with me?
Do you have a like a case case? Or is it gut?
Ummm.... I had something once... I think:
imma gonna go vote: jimmmm. Still think he was a better lynch choice than sudgy or andrew but it never gained traction and I haven't seen anything today to make me think otherwise.
based of this from yesterday...
and I do agree with some of the points that xeiron made about Jimmmm... I feel like he has been one of the least talked about players this game....when xeiron voted for him I was confused...welll initially I was confused because I thought it said "jotheonah" for some reason and he obviously isn't in the game (but then I was confused again that Jimmmm was in the game)...
I vote a few posts later, which was refering to xeiron's points here:
Don't like the way this sudgy wagon suddenly started off. From zero votes to L-1 in what? 20 hours? sudgy's one of the obvious easy mislynches. I'll look to that in greater detail, but right now the sudgy wagon seems so much more likely scum-driven than the Andrew wagon.
I agree that the sudgy wagon seems scum driven.
The question is then who on it is scum?
Jimm's vote is a remnant from the old days of RVS
Yuma is the main force behind the wagon, I do not feel safe about him, but neither do I see a reson to vote for him.
TwistedArcher seems towny enough.
Much has been said about AndrewisFTTW, but his place on the sudgy wagon is no alignment tell. Everyone would do that when they are the main lynch alternative.
Archetype does not seems any more scummy than usual.
A Drowned Kernel could wery well be scum. He seems eager to lynch anyone except Andrew.
I will go with vote: jimmmmm. While he is not really a force on the wagon I do not like how he stays in the background.
He comments some thing that happends. Watches the Andrews wagon from a distance softly supporting it.
It feels like he just waits for a (mis)lynch to happen without wanting to get his own hands dirty.
and here from today:
Don't know the reason for killing faust as he was pretty set on lynching me. Could killing shraeye have something to do with ash?
These two posts from Jimm set off some red flags for me:
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
It seems like he's asking me to do something that I can't do, maybe so he can point to this later and say I was unwilling to cooperate or that my claim is a fakeclaim, otherwise I would've shown that I've thought about it beforehand and could somehow answer his question appropriately.
I did also notice those two posts.
vote: jimmmmm
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So.. okay.. I can't say much about anything there. The first part mostly talks about him being absent but still on wagons. That's fine, but there are a lot of absent players, and I have no way of knowing if this is more likely as scum or town. But I can agree that scum would want to remain in the background. Another quote referred to Jimmm's meta, which I don't have any knowledge of.
The part about Jimmm questioning Andrewis I can understand. What Andrewis says makes sense. On the other hand, my first instinct when someone claims something is to start asking a bunch of questions to see if it's true or not. Maybe you could tell something from the way they respond, if not the actual answer itself.
So, yeah.. I guess I don't really have any input here. I'm basically null at the moment.
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Then who do YOU want to lynch. You aren't voting for anyone ATM...
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Then who do YOU want to lynch. You aren't voting for anyone ATM...
If I had to choose now I'd choose Ash. But we have a good deal of time, and I want to figure out more and here more from the quiet people.
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Who said anything about you being a dayvig sk instead of just lying? That's what I'm more concerned about.
I feel like I just addressed the "lying" idea above. Please reread and get back to me?
Your post addresses you being a sk and not mafia.
Ill find time to post a bit more tomorrow I promise. I have a few thoughts I want to get down but I need sleep now
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Your post addresses you being a sk and not mafia.
Ill find time to post a bit more tomorrow I promise. I have a few thoughts I want to get down but I need sleep now
No it did.
The part where I refer to "doing what xeiron suggested" is all about the possibility of me being mafia because that is what xeiron suggested...
Like I said there, it is unlikely because I would have to as mafia risk there being either a Vig (night or Day) that could potentially counterclaim me. The benefits I think don't out weigh the risks and thus should negate any suspicion you have from me not using my vig today.
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
Also this was never addressed. In a few days I am going to go back and call out everyone who said that a flip was so essential to get information from. I have yet to see said information to find scum.
I'll wait...
After that I will start looking heavily at those who voted for this reason and will probably vote in that area unless something tangible is presented.
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
Also this was never addressed. In a few days I am going to go back and call out everyone who said that a flip was so essential to get information from. I have yet to see said information to find scum.
I'll wait...
After that I will start looking heavily at those who voted for this reason and will probably vote in that area unless something tangible is presented.
You couldn't use this snarky tone if the lynch hadn't happened, you know?
The reason a lynch is so preferred on D1 is that all the interactions we have on record mean zilch if we can't confirm anyone's alignment (other than our own). If we hadn't lynched sudgy on D1, for example, could you call people out for pushing/not pushing the mislynch, or for voting it with the easy excuse of "we need a lynch" or anything else? No, you'd literally have zero information to go off of because a no lynch gives us no information. Sure, we'd have one more townie to work with us today, but we wouldn't know sudgy was town, and so we'd be spinning our wheels again today on the same stuff.
You are right that we haven't done the appropriate amount of research and analysis of the wagon and the way it formed. But that's on everyone still alive today (including you), not the wagon itself. It's easy for you to act omniscent now that sudgy's flipped. The same way you'd look pretty damn scummy if he'd flipped scum.
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You couldn't use this snarky tone if the lynch hadn't happened, you know?
The reason a lynch is so preferred on D1 is that all the interactions we have on record mean zilch if we can't confirm anyone's alignment (other than our own). If we hadn't lynched sudgy on D1, for example, could you call people out for pushing/not pushing the mislynch, or for voting it with the easy excuse of "we need a lynch" or anything else? No, you'd literally have zero information to go off of because a no lynch gives us no information. Sure, we'd have one more townie to work with us today, but we wouldn't know sudgy was town, and so we'd be spinning our wheels again today on the same stuff.
You are right that we haven't done the appropriate amount of research and analysis of the wagon and the way it formed. But that's on everyone still alive today (including you), not the wagon itself. It's easy for you to act omniscent now that sudgy's flipped. The same way you'd look pretty damn scummy if he'd flipped scum.
I know the reason for lynching... but I disagree that it is so cut and dry here. We have info. We just don't necessarily have that info brought into the public view (this is RMM, people know stuff) also we have info from shraeye and faust being dead (not as good yes, but still pretty good). And I am not disagreeing with you that information is good. But I do not think it is worth lynching someone who you (and I know you didn't, but I did...) have a strong town read on. The only reason I joined the wagon was because I was blackmailed into it... and now I am realizing what I should have done was join and then bail at the very last second... but I was busy cooking at that time and didn't think through the whole scenario... And yes we wouldn't "know" sudgy was town, but I think I could have and did present a pretty compelling argument for why he was very, very likely to be...
But ultimately what I am saying is that people joined that wagon for the express purpose of "we need it for info!!! GAH!!!" and then have failed to go and get that info. The lack of incentive on their part to me is scummy because they have failed to justify their means which makes me think that they just joined to get a lynch and don't care about the info--scummy behavior.
I joined the wagon to make sure Andrew didn't get lynched, so I don't see why I should be responsibile for gathering this precious data.
And yes, I am being snarky. I get to be snarky. He flipped town. If he flipped scum then I woulnd't be. But he didn't. He flipped town, so snark, snark, snark!!!
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This is what bothers me:
Late yesterday, before the lynch:
I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.
vote: sudgy
And then early today:
I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.
Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?
I still haven't gotten a response as to why Andrew being alive has anything to do with me. He was my top scum read, then he claimed a strong town role, then he survived with one of the strongest town roles I can think of. None of which means I'm scum.
I'm still catching up. Andrew's posts on D2 sound towny, and his "yuma wasn't an NK target?" slip makes him either conf!town or his second scumslip of the game. Again, I will put it out there that it is just ridonkulous that scum goes "hey, we know for sure that guy is a doctor AND a roleblocker, so let's leave him alive, especially since at the end of D1 it didn't look like anyone wanted to lynch him." Would you leave such as strong PR who is basically believed by everyone alive as scum?
So I think it's still very possible that Andrew is scum who had a great fakeclaim.
If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now? What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday? So they could rekindle the wagon? Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves.
Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?
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If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now? What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday? So they could rekindle the wagon? Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves.
Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?
The claim was believeable. Still is, as plenty seem to believe it now. At a snap decision moment, close to deadline, I went with my reading of his reaction to the question in the moment -- he's a newbie, I have specific expectations of how he might react, just like I have a different expectation of how yuma would react.
You have a valid point that "maybe scum kept him alive." But that's just WIFOM in the end. I know if I was scum, and I was able, I'd have taken out a doctor + roleblocker. My opinion is that his survival is scummier than not.
I could be wrong. Not like I'm screaming 1000% here. But we're a bit low on leads right now, and I still trust my D1 reads.
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I'll wait...
I think we should lynch sudgy Today. He's probably scum. Oh wait, we did that already! Now we can make progress towards lynching actual scum instead of giving them a free kill and then doing what we would have done anyway.
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Remember, deaths do help us POE scum. Here's the list:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
5. faust Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw, a Viewer (Voyeur).--Killed N1
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
8. shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.--Killed N1
9. sudgy Elayne Trankand, a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)--Lynched D1
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
That narrows it down to:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Then, for town, you narrow down by removing yourself plus your strongest town/not lynching today reads. For me:
1. Archetype
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
So, I'm looking for a subset of this group to be working together to kill us all, and possible one of them to be trying to kill everyone. Looking within a group of 7 is good.
I think everyone should do this.
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If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now? What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday? So they could rekindle the wagon? Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves.
Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?
The claim was believeable. Still is, as plenty seem to believe it now. At a snap decision moment, close to deadline, I went with my reading of his reaction to the question in the moment -- he's a newbie, I have specific expectations of how he might react, just like I have a different expectation of how yuma would react.
You have a valid point that "maybe scum kept him alive." But that's just WIFOM in the end. I know if I was scum, and I was able, I'd have taken out a doctor + roleblocker. My opinion is that his survival is scummier than not.
I could be wrong. Not like I'm screaming 1000% here. But we're a bit low on leads right now, and I still trust my D1 reads.
You're not screaming 1000%? You sound really really sure:
I never should have bought your crap on D1, though. It's clear you were lying through your teeth.
If you aren't scum, I will eat joth's hat.
If we had lynched you as I pressed from the beginning, we'd be that much closer to winning. I lost the debate with yuma, you survived, congrats.
Okay fine I buy your argument that scum would take out Andrew. BUT do you really think it's that unlikely that there isn't another kind of explanation? Why are you so certain here?
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
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From the list of alive people:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Removing Witherweaver, Yuma, Andrewis:
1. Archetype
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....
In that game Ash was referencing, not this one.
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Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.
Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
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Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.
Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
Laying the groundwork for your defense?
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....
Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game? It was his actions that failed town.
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Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.
Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
Laying the groundwork for your defense?
Huh?
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....
Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game? It was his actions that failed town.
Drove McMc wagon on Day 1, Drove Nik wagon off a cliff on Day 2.
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Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.
Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
Laying the groundwork for your defense?
Huh?
You are already posting reasons for why you will survive another night. It's because you already know you won't die tonight because you are scum. It's a scum tell.
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Other explanations exist. I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.
I'm just a confident player. I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on. I feel good about my read here. I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.
Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....
Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game? It was his actions that failed town.
Drove McMc wagon on Day 1, Drove Nik wagon off a cliff on Day 2.
Oh. I didn't really follow.
Go read shraeye in Adventure Time and Hangman.
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Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?
Gaaah I'm so confused in Mafia right now.
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Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?
The first thing he should have said today was "how am I still alive?" It should have crossed his mind that he was going to be a target. It (seems like it) didn't.
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Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.
Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
Laying the groundwork for your defense?
Huh?
You are already posting reasons for why you will survive another night. It's because you already know you won't die tonight because you are scum. It's a scum tell.
Are you going to ever post anything helpful this game? Anything? Or are you going to continue to clutter up this thread with completely useless, pointless, redundant, insufferable posts?
Regardless of your answer I'm done responding to you. I'm done acknowledging anything you have to say. Any post I make will inevitably be answered with "it's a classic scumtell" so really, what is my motivation to post anything at all? The point of this game from town's perspective is to find and lynch scum which is what I'm trying to do despite your unhelpful and empty posts. So from here on out, your posts aren't worth my time. Enjoy the rest of the game.
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Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?
Gaaah I'm so confused in Mafia right now.
I'm not surprised I'm alive. Ash can endlessly push for my lynch and the longer I'm alive, the more it seems like I'm scum due to my claim.
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Enjoy the rest of the game.
Not until we lynch you, scum.
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A mislynch D3 or D4 would be very good for scum.
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1. Archetype
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Lynch pool for me is this ^
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So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?
I'll wait...
Also this was never addressed. In a few days I am going to go back and call out everyone who said that a flip was so essential to get information from. I have yet to see said information to find scum.
I'll wait...
After that I will start looking heavily at those who voted for this reason and will probably vote in that area unless something tangible is presented.
By lynching sudgy we had a chance of him killing scum. (in contrast to no lynching, we are guaranteed that no scum dies)
We learnt that sudgy was town. That means we are not mislynching him later in the game.
We learnt that Twistedarcher, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, ashersky and Jimmmmm was all willing to lynch Sudgy, and since Sudgy was town, there is no reason why scum would want to stop that lynch from happening.
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That is why it would ease my mind if you shoot someone today.
I would also like to hear from everyone. How many days should we wait before yuma have to prove his claim or be lynched?
I am not going to shoot to ease your mind, nor will I shoot under threat of a lynch. I will not risk shooting someone more pro-town than me over having you lynch me and lose my mixed utility role.
I don't value vigs that highly, especially in a RMM game. I would be more willing to die than be dictated when to shoot.
There is an easy solution.
we set a soft deadline at. April 14 at 8:00 PM (1day, 3.30 h before deadline)
When we are about to lynch somebody (they are on L-1 and someone announces intent to hammer), we do not lynch, but instead you shoot them. Then we can then either no lynch, or lynch someone else.
Then you get to confirm your claim, without having to decide by yourself on someone to kill, and without giving scum more influence on the choosing than they get during a normal lynch.
Do you agree to this plan, Yuma?
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From the list of alive people:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Removing Xeiron, Witherweaver and Twistedarcher:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
[/quote]
Andrewis is there because Yuma is there (Yumas defence of Andrew D1 is really sucpicios if Yuma should flip scum). Yuma is there because he haven't shoot someone yet.
If Yuma shoot someone today, both will be removed.
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Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
I would not be suprised if both of you are left alive one more night.
Two kills N1 looks like we have a serial killer in the game.
A SK is a bigger threat for mafia than any single town member, just as the mafia is a greater threat for the SK than town is. This means that they will probably be trying to kill each other, instead of Yuma and Andrew.
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Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?
Gaaah I'm so confused in Mafia right now.
I'm not surprised I'm alive. Ash can endlessly push for my lynch and the longer I'm alive, the more it seems like I'm scum due to my claim.
But you were convinced he was just misguided town yesterday. And you posted this today:
Why would me being alive incriminate ash?
You really confuse me dude :(
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Yesterday is yesterday. Things change as new information and cases are brought to light. Arch posted his thoughts on ash, I went back and read mostly everything (which took a long time) and formulated my current opinion and case based on what I and others have found.
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Yesterday is yesterday. Things change as new information and cases are brought to light. Arch posted his thoughts on ash, I went back and read mostly everything (which took a long time) and formulated my current opinion and case based on what I and others have found.
Okay maybe I need to clarify. When I asked "Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?" I was referring to the fact that you stated:
I was expecting yuma to be targeted for a NK and maybe doctored but I guess with two NKs he probably wasn't even targeted? Or is there a good reason scum wouldn't target yuma for a NKS?
Here you say that you expected Yuma to have died during the night. So you expected this before seeing what happened during the night. Which means you were still of "yesterday" opinion, which I had thought was that you thought Ash was town. Which means you wouldn't have been of the opinion that "Ash can endlessly push for my lynch and the longer I'm alive, the more it seems like I'm scum due to my claim."
It makes sense for you to be of this opinion now, but not during the night. So what I was asking was, why were you expecting Yuma to die during the night and not yourself? Because your role seems kind of powerful.
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I didn't think my role was as powerful as his but reading everything that has been said about his role since then has me convinced dayvig not as strong as I thought.
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I didn't think my role was as powerful as his but reading everything that has been said about his role since then has me convinced dayvig not as strong as I thought.
Okay.
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Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
I would not be suprised if both of you are left alive one more night.
Two kills N1 looks like we have a serial killer in the game.
A SK is a bigger threat for mafia than any single town member, just as the mafia is a greater threat for the SK than town is. This means that they will probably be trying to kill each other, instead of Yuma and Andrew.
Do all forms of "SK" have the same winning condition? Is it possible to have a night killer that has a different winning condition?
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Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
I would not be suprised if both of you are left alive one more night.
Two kills N1 looks like we have a serial killer in the game.
A SK is a bigger threat for mafia than any single town member, just as the mafia is a greater threat for the SK than town is. This means that they will probably be trying to kill each other, instead of Yuma and Andrew.
Do all forms of "SK" have the same winning condition? Is it possible to have a night killer that has a different winning condition?
A third party with a nightkill, but with a different winning condition, is not illeagal in any way, but really unusual. I think Jimmmmm was a SK/survivor hybrid in Lord Of The Rings 2. Other than that I do not know if it has been done before on this site.
Not sure if Serial Killer is defined as "third party with a night kill" or "third party with a win condition of killing everyone else", so the naming could be discussed. Not that the name matters, though.
Are there any other win conditions you think would make sense in this game?
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Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.
I would not be suprised if both of you are left alive one more night.
Two kills N1 looks like we have a serial killer in the game.
A SK is a bigger threat for mafia than any single town member, just as the mafia is a greater threat for the SK than town is. This means that they will probably be trying to kill each other, instead of Yuma and Andrew.
Do all forms of "SK" have the same winning condition? Is it possible to have a night killer that has a different winning condition?
A third party with a nightkill, but with a different winning condition, is not illeagal in any way, but really unusual. I think Jimmmmm was a SK/survivor hybrid in Lord Of The Rings 2. Other than that I do not know if it has been done before on this site.
Not sure if Serial Killer is defined as "third party with a night kill" or "third party with a win condition of killing everyone else", so the naming could be discussed. Not that the name matters, though.
Are there any other win conditions you think would make sense in this game?
I don't really know much about win conditions other than what I'm reading on the Mafia wiki. So mechanics wise, I don't have much of an idea. Flavor wise.. I'm not really sure. I need to get a better idea of what conditions there are. I remember reading something about winning if you lynch someone (I looked it up, Lyncher), and it would make sense for a certain character. (Not sure if I should reveal the scenario or not.) So, I guess there would be some, but I'd have to go look at all the possibilities and see if I can make them make sense. I have no idea on the likelihood that they would actually appear, though.
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But is that really worth doing? If what you said was correct, then we shouldn't focus on third party, right?
So I guess I wanted to know if there were cases where we would want to focus on finding the third party.
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But is that really worth doing? If what you said was correct, then we shouldn't focus on third party, right?
So I guess I wanted to know if there were cases where we would want to focus on finding the third party.
I do not think it is worth doing. and yes, I think finding mafia is higher priority than SK hunting. Not the least because we know we are up against a scumteam, while a serial killer is just a possibility. There are plenty of town roles that could cause an extra death.
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There is an easy solution.
we set a soft deadline at. April 14 at 8:00 PM (1day, 3.30 h before deadline)
When we are about to lynch somebody (they are on L-1 and someone announces intent to hammer), we do not lynch, but instead you shoot them. Then we can then either no lynch, or lynch someone else.
Then you get to confirm your claim, without having to decide by yourself on someone to kill, and without giving scum more influence on the choosing than they get during a normal lynch.
Do you agree to this plan, Yuma?
No.
I WILL NOT be intimidated into shooting if I do not think it is an opportune time to shoot.
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I see sooooo little scum hunting going on...
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I'll wait...
I think we should lynch sudgy Today. He's probably scum. Oh wait, we did that already! Now we can make progress towards lynching actual scum instead of giving them a free kill and then doing what we would have done anyway.
We would not have--or at least should not have lynched sudgy today if he was alive. He became a strong townread and ended up being a lynch out of convenience.
Look everyone that is trying to get me to understand the principle of "Why No Lynch Is Bad" I get it. I am not a mindless idiot here. I understand this fully.
What I AM SAYING is this...
That yesterday we had three options (well four...)
1. lynch sudgy
2. no lynch
(3. lynch Andrew)
4. lynch someone else
I tried pretty hard to get the wagon onto somewhere else. I was curtailed everytime I tried and people's justifications were that 1. we didn't have time and 2. needed to make sure we got a lynch for information.
I call bullcrap on the first one, we had plenty of time. Town and scum interfered in new wagons. Because of blackmail I joined in to lynch sudgy (over Andrew) and now I am asking people to actually use and apply the information that we supposedly got. I am not saying we didn't get any information I am saying that people justified a lynch and justified not trying to get a lynch elsewhere based off this principle and have yet to go back and pull up anything substantial from it.
So yeah... that is what I am asking... why are people talking about my dayvig so heavily and speculating about random double SK theories when there is supposed to be concrete information from the lynch that people used to justify a lynch. That is what I am asking for... the information. I haven't seen it yet or seen it applied to finding a good lynch for today.
If you are going to lynch for information make sure you dig up the information the next day and apply it. Otherwise why did you lynch?
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vote: yuma
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Vote: xeiron
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What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
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What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
It's Day 2. You really think that, regardless of how many shots he has and any other aspects to his role, that the optimal strategy for a Town Dayvig is to shoot someone in the first 2 Days? I mean yeah, yuma will have to shoot someone by the end of the game, or he will look incredibly scummy, and there will come a point at which I will strongly advocate lynching him based on not seeing any evidence of his verifiable claim. But it's certainly too early for that.
What kind of "understanding" would you expect from Town yuma?
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What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
What if it's only one-shot or two-shot? And even if it isn't.. unless he has a good read, it's still more likely that he'll hit town than scum, right? Shooting to verify a claim early seems dangerous. And even if you're right, is it necessary to go after him now instead of later? That feels very high risk, high reward to me. He'd still have partners if he's on the scum team. Why not find those instead? And it could give clues to Yuma's alignment for later, and the longer he doesn't shoot, the more people are going to suspect him.
I guess in this scenario (where Yuma is scum), the big concern is the possible situation where he actually has a dayvig power and can use it as scum for a win. But that can only happen when (num scum) = (numtown), during the day. If there are more town than scum, Yuma would likely get lynched (unless he has a good cover) and so it would be a one-for-one trade. The more I think about it, I think scum!Yuma is much more likely to want to shoot early than late. If he shoots early (and going with the town's advice), he has a much better cover, because it was more likely for him to hit town than scum anyway.
Okay so I don't think that is the big concern. Your concern is that he's scum and lied to gain assured town status. That still seems like a big gambit to me, and I still think it would be more productive to find the other scum than to go after Yuma, because his guilt becomes increasingly more likely the longer he does not shoot.
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And by the argument before, if he was third party, he'd be wanting to find scum, too. I think in every case it's better to hold off on Yuma, unless he does something obviously scummy.
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Okay I'm starting to see the benefit of having an Ash-type player around. It's like the game stagnates when he's not yelling at someone.
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Doing some rereading.
Xeiron, it's hard to reconcile these two extremes:
Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
vote: yuma
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WHY NO HAMMER?
yuma, I know you withdrew this in your next comment, but why did you say it in the first place?
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Okay I'm starting to see the benefit of having an Ash-type player around. It's like the game stagnates when he's not yelling at someone.
Unless he's yelling about the wrong things on purpose.
WW situations change from day to day. It's not so cut and dry to look at something someone said a week and a half ago on D1 and compare it with what they said today. I'm not defending Xeiron, necessarily, and I'm not telling you to ignore stuff like that, but things change as the game progresses.
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Okay looking at Jimmm..
He's pretty gone throughout most of Day 1. He starts off initially questioning Yuma's claim, there is a little back and forth there, and then he's gone. Comes back throughout the beginning of the Ash/Andrew thing with a few comments.. I don't really find much in those, but I do get the impression that he's trying to sort stuff out. But it doesn't feel like he's really saying or contributing a lot throughout.
He's the gone for much of the time leading up to the deadline until about two hours before deadline (Reply 751, 06:05:22 pm). Mentions that he'll probably vote Andrew, and will reread Sudgy. Comes back 30 minutes before deadline and says he didn't find anything on Sudgy and votes Andrew (Reply 807 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364006#msg364006)). He then says he'll vote for Sudgy to get a lynch if there isn't enough for Andrew (811 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364013#msg364013)). Suggests Yuma dayvig Andrew (825 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364030#msg364030)) to prove Yuma's claim. A few posts later he seems to agree that dayvigging Sudgy would be just as good.
Andrew claims, Jimm questions it, some back and forth.. consensus moves more towards Sudgy, some more back and forth, Jimm hammers with about 30 seconds to spare (876 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364096#msg364096)).
Day 2 Jimm seems a lot like beginning of Day 1 Jimm. Not super present but not entirely absent.
Okay so two things stand out to me. I can see a narrative that makes sense for scum!Jimm:
First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one. This seems risky for scum, but he has a pretty good cover story that he thinks a lynch is better than a no-lynch, which many people do agree on, and he'd probably maintain the same opinion whether he was town or scum. So he has a lot of control over the lynching situation with a pre-established theory reason on why to hammer. Moreover, he didn't really do any of the work to get the lynches going, only swooped in at the end. A very similar thing happened in the other game I played, by scum.
Second, Jimm seems pretty concerned with peoples roles. Okay, we all are, but he chimed in on Yuma early, suggested some shooting from Yuma to verify Yuma's role, started questioning Andrewis' claim (847 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364059#msg364059), not sure if I linked it before). I don't think he responded to Xerxes' claim, though. Well, this one might be a wash. I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed. One the other hand, scum!Jimm would know if these claims come from town, and he might believe that town won't want to lie about their roles. (I would like to believe that.)
Okay, I'm not sure there's anything in the second point. The first point I do find suspicious.
I don't see a smoking gun here, but I can understand why people were voting for him. I'd like to do something similar for the other people that seem to be "background" in this game, but I probably have to do some actual work today.
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Okay I'm starting to see the benefit of having an Ash-type player around. It's like the game stagnates when he's not yelling at someone.
Unless he's yelling about the wrong things on purpose.
Yes, but my point was that still helps us. If he's scum, then him posting a lot could reveal something and gives more opportunities for a mistake. If you're scum, then the same thing with you posting a lot. If neither of you are scum, it still helps because it gets other people involved in the discussion, and we can glean information from what they say.
WW situations change from day to day. It's not so cut and dry to look at something someone said a week and a half ago on D1 and compare it with what they said today. I'm not defending Xeiron, necessarily, and I'm not telling you to ignore stuff like that, but things change as the game progresses.
Right, I realize that, but it's not like Xeiron went from "Why question this? It's probably true and it will be verifiable later," to "Okay, now I'm starting to doubt this claim." He went from "Questioning Yuma and implying he may be scum is scummy, \vote" to "Yuma is scum, \vote" It's the extreme change that I have trouble with.
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Yeah I find Jimm suspicious too. My main suspects are Jimm, TA, and ash right now.
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I personally don't see anything in that and I can see where he's coming from. I don't think we should be discussing yuma today, but he's somebody to keep an eye on.
All D1 I found Xeiron really scummy. D2 not so much. I can't say why exactly, maybe because I'm finding ash and TA so scummy instead.
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I personally don't see anything in that and I can see where he's coming from. I don't think we should be discussing yuma today, but he's somebody to keep an eye on.
All D1 I found Xeiron really scummy. D2 not so much. I can't say why exactly, maybe because I'm finding ash and TA so scummy instead.
I don't see TA at all.
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I posted a whole reread of his interactions with ash a while back. Not a spectacular case by any means but there at a lulls things I took note of. It's alright though, I don't think we should be lynching him today anyway.
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A couple things*
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First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.
Is rolefishing actually a thing? It's something that people are accused of fairly regularly, but have we ever actually seen scum try to make a Townie accidentally say more about their role than they should? If someone who you are considering lynching claims, you can either accept it blindly, reject it blindly, or question them about it. Which of these do you think is best?
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First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.
Is rolefishing actually a thing? It's something that people are accused of fairly regularly, but have we ever actually seen scum try to make a Townie accidentally say more about their role than they should? If someone who you are considering lynching claims, you can either accept it blindly, reject it blindly, or question them about it. Which of these do you think is best?
To the rolefishing question, I honestly have no idea.
For the other point, my inclination is to question, too. But there seems to be a dilemma in it.. the more you get someone to reveal about their role, but more (I'm assuming) you help the scum. On the other hand, if they are lying, then they're more likely to get caught if they say more. So I don't know here.
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First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.
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First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.
I'm not convinced of this. When you came back, Andrew had 4 votes with you and Ash not voting, and TA was on Sudgy but willing to lynch anyone to avoid a no lynch. So that would lynch Andrew. What changed it was Andrew claiming, not the Sudgy lynch being more viable. Prior to the claiming, you were in a position to determine the lynch. Or at least push the lynchee to the point of needing to claim.
Can't pull up quotes right now, but I think I have the events correctly. Will try to concretize.
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Vote Count 2.3:
ashersky (3): Archetype, XerxesPraelor, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (1): yuma
XerxesPraelor (1): ashersky
xeiron (2): Twistedarcher, Jimmmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): xeiron
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
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My opinions on this game are very vague and ill-formed, and I totally stopped keeping up with. From what I remember, Andrew and ash have been at each other's throats, and there's very good chance one of them is scum. I could see it being either of them, and they're probably my top two lynch candidates for today.
The only people I don't think I'd lynch are witherweaver, who seems very townie on a brief reread, and yuma, though the longer he goes without shooting the more I'm likely to vote for him.
So I guess doing the list thing, but splitting into three:
Would like to lynch:
AndrewisFTTW
ashersky
Would be willing to lynch:
XP
xeiron
TA
jim
archetype
Would not be willing to lynch:
ww, yuma, me
Out of the "willing to lynch", I'm pretty even on all of them for now. Maybe a targeted reread is in the future now that this is my only mafia game.
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What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
It's Day 2. You really think that, regardless of how many shots he has and any other aspects to his role, that the optimal strategy for a Town Dayvig is to shoot someone in the first 2 Days? I mean yeah, yuma will have to shoot someone by the end of the game, or he will look incredibly scummy, and there will come a point at which I will strongly advocate lynching him based on not seeing any evidence of his verifiable claim. But it's certainly too early for that.
What kind of "understanding" would you expect from Town yuma?
Yes, I think it is optimal play to shoot today.
"shoot at the end of the game" you say, but there are risks of shooting in lylo situations.
Imagine this worst case developement. We mislynch today following by two more night deaths (including any third party that might be in the game.) The situation then is seven people left. 4 town and 3 scum. (we have already discussed scumteam sizes, and three scum in this game is a safe assumtion.)
If Yuma shoots in this situation and hits town, it is game over. If he don't shoot, we do not know if we should lynch him or someone else.
Yes, this was a worst case scenario, but since we know it is safe for yuma to confirm his claim today, why gamble that it will not be to late tomorow?
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Doing some rereading.
Xeiron, it's hard to reconcile these two extremes:
Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
vote: yuma
Yes, my read of yuma has changed from early D1 and to now. It has something to do with claiming and then not confirming that claim.
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What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
It's Day 2. You really think that, regardless of how many shots he has and any other aspects to his role, that the optimal strategy for a Town Dayvig is to shoot someone in the first 2 Days? I mean yeah, yuma will have to shoot someone by the end of the game, or he will look incredibly scummy, and there will come a point at which I will strongly advocate lynching him based on not seeing any evidence of his verifiable claim. But it's certainly too early for that.
What kind of "understanding" would you expect from Town yuma?
As for the understanding part.
If yuma is fakeclaiming scum, there is really only one way to play. That is to refuse to shoot someone (yet), using whatever explanations/exuses/promises neccessary to stay alive for as many days as possible.
I would apretiate if town yuma would try to differentiate his play from the play he would have to do as scum. What I really want him to do is to shoot someone, but being willing to discus the best way for him to confirm his claim would be a start, rather than the 'not yet, and not under pressure' as I have seen from him so far.
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vote: yuma
townread on xeiron
i don't think mafia, who would know I am telling the truth, would try to aggravate me this much for fear of me shooting them... which honestly I was tempted (kinda... but not really) to do
but that does not change my stance. I will not shoot unless I have a bona fide reason to shoot someone. And right now I don't
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I would apretiate if town yuma would try to differentiate his play from the play he would have to do as scum. What I really want him to do is to shoot someone, but being willing to discus the best way for him to confirm his claim would be a start, rather than the 'not yet, and not under pressure' as I have seen from him so far.
If i were scum i wouldn't be claiming this role.... but if somehow I was forced to I see your points and acknowledge them, but that still isn't going to change my mind. It just won't. If you want to think I am being stubborn, or scummy, you may. But I am not changing my mind on this. I would hope you would see how unlikely this claim works and give me some trust, but I understand if that is something you don't feel comfortable giving.
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WHY NO HAMMER?
yuma, I know you withdrew this in your next comment, but why did you say it in the first place?
I got caught up in the lynch mob mentality fervor (which is surprisingly easy to do...) while cooking up some yogurt and feta cheese marinated chicken and mini-pepper kabobs...
basically I got distracted from the game and forgot that I didn't like the sudgy lynch.... I already mentioned that I feel I should have unvoted at the last moment to get around the blackmail--although there were enough of you there to lynch andrew instead I think... so that probably would have backfired
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
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Unvote
Xeiron is townier today. WW, too (not that I thought he was particularly scummy D1)
Yuma, I totally am failing to fololow up on Sudgy's lynch, I will try to get to that (and I know I keep saying this..)
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
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Unvote
Xeiron is townier today. WW, too (not that I thought he was particularly scummy D1)
Yuma, I totally am failing to fololow up on Sudgy's lynch, I will try to get to that (and I know I keep saying this..)
Not having time I understand... I don;t have much either... rather it is specifically people who are putting a lot of energy into discussing me and my role or sk theories INSTEAD of doing actual scum hunting... and it is compounded because instead of me scum hunting with my little time I am writing rebuttals to these arguments...
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Doing some rereading.
Xeiron, it's hard to reconcile these two extremes:
Would some kind of DaySK work?
Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.
What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.
vote: yuma
Yes, my read of yuma has changed from early D1 and to now. It has something to do with claiming and then not confirming that claim.
Yes I know you changed your read, but like I said before it's the extreme change that's weird. It seems that if you are willing to lynch him now you would have at least considered the possibility that he was lying before.
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
I am????
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Oh i see something now rereading my PM,,, how much should i divulge?
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I dunno, I am treading carefully here, I have written 3 posts and then erased them not wanting to give anything away about either my role or about yours (if you are really town).
Basically...I am going to be very very very suspicious if you don't shoot today knowing what I know about your role. I am disappointed to hear that it doesn't make you 100% town, that would have been great, but I am suspicious along the same lines that Xeiron is....I would expect you to shoot and not wait until LYLO, basically.
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The people I'm looking at lynching today, now that I get a townier feel from Xeiron, are Arch Jimmmm and ADK. Commencing re-read specifically of these 3 now.
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I dunno, I am treading carefully here, I have written 3 posts and then erased them not wanting to give anything away about either my role or about yours (if you are really town).
Basically...I am going to be very very very suspicious if you don't shoot today knowing what I know about your role. I am disappointed to hear that it doesn't make you 100% town, that would have been great, but I am suspicious along the same lines that Xeiron is....I would expect you to shoot and not wait until LYLO, basically.
I can't imagine one of the bad Aeil's being a flavor character. They weren't major enough. My strong strong bet would be that your finding implies a flavor that is necessarily a town role.
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I dunno, I am treading carefully here, I have written 3 posts and then erased them not wanting to give anything away about either my role or about yours (if you are really town).
Basically...I am going to be very very very suspicious if you don't shoot today knowing what I know about your role. I am disappointed to hear that it doesn't make you 100% town, that would have been great, but I am suspicious along the same lines that Xeiron is....I would expect you to shoot and not wait until LYLO, basically.
really... I don't have anything in my role that indicates shooting early as better. Maybe you are misinterpreting something or something didn't translate. I don't know the flavor at all, but I am quite sure there are no negative repercussions from me not shooting.
And I am not waiting until lylo. I am waiting until I am more confident I will hit scum and not town... I would rather die myself then kill off a better and more pro-town role than me. why is that so hard to understand?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
what is the difference?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
Yes I am sure.
Are there any characters who weren't Aeil who were in possession of maiden spears at any point?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
what is the difference?
Maidens of the Spear are people. They are warrior women ... essentially one of the primary warrior classes of the Aiel society (a kind of nomadic people living in the Wastes, a rocky land with little vegetation and little rainfall). Though only women can be Maidens.
A "maiden spear" sounds like an item, and I don't think it's actually ever mentioned in Wheel of Time. But maybe you could call the spear that is wielded by a Maiden of the Spear a "maiden spear".
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I guess that's what Mail-mi did there then, but my flavor 100% indicates it's an item Yuma has.
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Well I am the latter... by title. my flavor name is... Aviendha.
So not sure why TA got it wrong.
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I guess that's what Mail-mi did there then, but my flavor 100% indicates it's an item Yuma has.
Didn't he say that flavour wouldn't help?
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Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
Yes I am sure.
Are there any characters who weren't Aeil who were in possession of maiden spears at any point?
Uh, no, not really. Rand had a bunch of Maiden's of the Spear following him around.. they were like his personal bodyguard. He had a spear itself, but it was a Seachan weapon, not Aiel.
I guess that's what Mail-mi did there then, but my flavor 100% indicates it's an item Yuma has.
I assume so. They're Maidens, they have spears, so Maiden's spear makes sense.
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This is worth pointing out on the re-read:
Jimmmm's first reaction to Yuma's day-vig claim is to ask if a day-SK would work. The second is to vote Sudgy for voting Yuma. Seems scummy to me.
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Well I am the latter... by title. my flavor name is... Aviendha.
So not sure why TA got it wrong.
I don't think it's wrong. I think I was just being pedantic with wording. I mean she's a Maiden of the Spear, and her weapon is a spear, so sure, it's a maiden's spear.
Anyway, I was like 99% sure that was who you were given the words "maiden" and "spear" being associated with you in any way.
I'm a little surprised that the ability is dayvig, but I guess I didn't have any thoughts on what Aviendha's ability would be. Dayvig makes sense.. she's a fierce warrior and extremely capable in combat.
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Well I am the latter... by title. my flavor name is... Aviendha.
So not sure why TA got it wrong.
What did I get wrong? Quick google shows that she's a maiden of the spear, so you'd have a maiden spear. So you should be able to confirm my night result!
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Well I am the latter... by title. my flavor name is... Aviendha.
So not sure why TA got it wrong.
What did I get wrong? Quick google shows that she's a maiden of the spear, so you'd have a maiden spear. So you should be able to confirm my night result!
Oh... I thought you implied I WAS NOT a "Maiden of the Spear"just that I had said spear, as in you thought I had a different title or something...
So am I an IC now? ;D
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Well I am the latter... by title. my flavor name is... Aviendha.
So not sure why TA got it wrong.
What did I get wrong? Quick google shows that she's a maiden of the spear, so you'd have a maiden spear. So you should be able to confirm my night result!
Oh... I thought you implied I WAS NOT a "Maiden of the Spear"just that I had said spear, as in you thought I had a different title or something...
So am I an IC now? ;D
Aviendha is 100% a "good guy", so I'd say yes.
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I suppose so
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If Aviendha is 100% a good guy, and Yuma is 100% Aviendha, then yes he's IC in my books. Fire when you want, I trust your judgement :P I will explain my confusion after the game if you're still interested.
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If Aviendha is 100% a good guy, and Yuma is 100% Aviendha, then yes he's IC in my books. Fire when you want, I trust your judgement :P I will explain my confusion after the game if you're still interested.
and i'll reread my pm to make sure I am not missing something... i take it that it is something that shouldn't be publicly revealed?
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I've been traveling all day with a dead phone but I'm charging it now. Can't catch up right now, I'll be able to later tonight.
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If Aviendha is 100% a good guy, and Yuma is 100% Aviendha, then yes he's IC in my books. Fire when you want, I trust your judgement :P I will explain my confusion after the game if you're still interested.
and i'll reread my pm to make sure I am not missing something... i take it that it is something that shouldn't be publicly revealed?
Yeah, no good can come from it. It's either mod ambiguity confusing me, or something else that I don't wanna explain now that you're def IC.
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All scum will get a flavor fakeclaim.
Everything written in lime green italics is just flavor--it has no impact on the game whatsoever!
I agree that yuma is probably Town, but surely trying to create ICs based on flavour is a losing proposition.
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Pretty sure that's referring to vote counts and such and not like actual game. Flavor DEFINITELY matters.
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It says everything written in lime green.
Where does it say that flavour matters?
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Or lime green italics rather.
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So I still haven't seen anything along the lines of what TA is talking about. However, maybe there is something I don't know about....
This makes me more willing to shoot today. But this is the way I see it...
I am willing to shoot today--most likely shoot the player that is going to be lynched with people voting pseudo style etov: mail-mi with claims and intent to hammer as if it were a true lynch
If I hit scum, we lynch again with the context of that flip.
If we hit town we quickly vote for no-lynch and act as if it was the lynch for the day.
What I really don't want is two town flips today.
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Are you really saying that you think flavor doesn't matter?
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No Yuma it's not information you are missing, I was just confused by my result last night and what it meant in accordance to your action. And I know this is confusing but trust me there's nothing extra I know about your role or anything, you are 100% in the know (obviously, it's your role not mine :p)
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I agree with Those responses on scum/town shots.
Ill start by vote:jimmmmm. Still got a lot to re-read though.
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Are you really saying that you think flavor doesn't matter?
Are you just assuming that it does, or are you basing it on something mail-mi has said? I mean, we have mod confirmation that scum have fakeclaims and that anything in lime green italics is "just flavor" and "has no impact on the game". How else are we supposed to take that?
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Welcome to RMM13, Jorbles. You are Galad Damodred, Warder-in-training.
Why can't everyone else see the world as you do? You've always had a good sense of right and wrong, Light and Shadow. Other people just don't see it that way. Well. You've been training at the White Tower to become a Warder, and you'll be using those skills, along with your sense of morality, to rat out the Shadow and win the Last Battle.
You are a Cop-Vigilante.
-Each night, you may send me the name of a player. I will tell you their alignment.
-If the person you target is a Forsaken, or targeted a member of the Light that night, you will kill them.
Please confirm by PM.
Except that my Maiden stuff isn't in lime green. It is in normal green like the above... so it does matter and does count...
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Welcome to RMM13, Jorbles. You are Galad Damodred, Warder-in-training.
Why can't everyone else see the world as you do? You've always had a good sense of right and wrong, Light and Shadow. Other people just don't see it that way. Well. You've been training at the White Tower to become a Warder, and you'll be using those skills, along with your sense of morality, to rat out the Shadow and win the Last Battle.
You are a Cop-Vigilante.
-Each night, you may send me the name of a player. I will tell you their alignment.
-If the person you target is a Forsaken, or targeted a member of the Light that night, you will kill them.
Please confirm by PM.
Except that my Maiden stuff isn't in lime green. It is in normal green like the above... so it does matter and does count...
Is it in italics? So it's the same colour as Galad Damo.. and Cop-Vigilante and a different colour to "Why can't everyone..."?
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Huh?
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Oh... sorry. I am trying to not break any rules.
What I am saying is that what TA is referring to is in the darker green like the Galad Damodred... not the lime green. So I think it matters. But yes, mafia does get fake claims according to the rules.
And my IC status was me mostly being fascitious. I feel I was already pretty close to IC to start with, so this isn't super important to me.
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Ok here's how I feel.
Mafia gets fake claims of course. But I know that Yumas character is 100% good (trusting witherweaver here but I'm sure he is true.) and from my night action I know that Yuma is 100% the character he claims. Therefore he is 100% town in my eyes.
Flavor matters, I know this because my role would make no sense without flavor. People have said sudgy's role and flavor name matched too I think? Plus it's rmm and flavor will always matter.
I think the quote you pointed out just referred to flavor in thread.
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And my IC status was me mostly being fascitious.
Yeah, I understand that.
I feel I was already pretty close to IC to start with, so this isn't super important to me.
Well yeah, at this stage I won't lynch you Today, probably won't lynch you Tomorrow either, so there's not a whole lot of difference between you and an IC at the moment. But I certainly don't think we should give anything close to an IC status to anyone who comes up with a believable flavour claim.
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Jimmm are you ignoring the fact that I am verifying that he is who he says he is?
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fixed quoting
And my IC status was me mostly being fascitious.
Yeah, I understand that.
I feel I was already pretty close to IC to start with, so this isn't super important to me.
Well yeah, at this stage I won't lynch you Today, probably won't lynch you Tomorrow either, so there's not a whole lot of difference between you and an IC at the moment. But I certainly don't think we should give anything close to an IC status to anyone who comes up with a believable flavour claim.
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Mafia gets fake claims of course. But I know that Yumas character is 100% good (trusting witherweaver here but I'm sure he is true.) and from my night action I know that Yuma is 100% the character he claims. Therefore he is 100% town in my eyes.
Oh, okay, I didn't realise you had claimed a result. I'm at work, so only half following. Maybe I should wait until I can give this game my full attention before commenting further.
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TA is town and telling the truth.
vote: jimmmmm to have a vacation vote and because I think his reaction to TA's reveal is off.
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TA is town and telling the truth.
vote: jimmmmm to have a vacation vote and because I think his reaction to TA's reveal is off.
What do you mean by off?
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Only way Yuma's flavor claim is fake is if TA and Yuma are scum team and they planned it. Scum gets fake claims but I seriously doubt they get fake investigative items.
I don't think this scenario is likely.
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...
Yes I know you changed your read, but like I said before it's the extreme change that's weird. It seems that if you are willing to lynch him now you would have at least considered the possibility that he was lying before.
I did start to consider the possibility of Yuma lying since around the start of D2, and my suscpicion has crow since then whenever the topic has been up.
Anyway unvote:, TA's result pretty much clears Yuma.
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So I still haven't seen anything along the lines of what TA is talking about. However, maybe there is something I don't know about....
This makes me more willing to shoot today. But this is the way I see it...
I am willing to shoot today--most likely shoot the player that is going to be lynched with people voting pseudo style etov: mail-mi with claims and intent to hammer as if it were a true lynch
If I hit scum, we lynch again with the context of that flip.
If we hit town we quickly vote for no-lynch and act as if it was the lynch for the day.
What I really don't want is two town flips today.
Great!
I approve of this plan.
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vote: jimmm
His reactions to xeiron are scummy and I'll have LA for 24 hrs.
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vote: jimmm
His reactions to xeiron are scummy and I'll have LA for 24 hrs.
Scummy how?
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I agree with yuma's plan.
I'm reading jimmmm as towny right now or at least null, I don't see how his reaction to TA's result was scummy or troublesome.
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OK! I'm all caught up, sorry for my absence yesterday. At this point I'm fine with a Jimm lynch and the dayvig plan.
So yuma is town, is there a reason scum!TA would want to reveal that besides town cred? Probably not. My reads are probably way off this game...
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Sorry for being so absent. I've been pretty busy, but I have enough time to reread today. Comments coming soon.
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Jimmmmm:
D1:
I had a bunch of quotes pulled up...but then my computer refreshed and I lost all the stuff I pulled up. I was leaning "Hesistant Town" before the refresh. Now where was I...
Okay. So yet again I have put myself in a situation where I have very few solid reads and it'll be a real struggle to really get myself into the game prior to more things happening that I actually pay attention to when they happen. I've repeatedly shown that having stretches of disengagement from the game is not an alignment-tell for me, and while that's not a reputation that I'm comfortable with, it keeps coming back to me - I need to be more consistent with putting effort into games that I've signed up for.
So, here's where I'm at right now. I'm still up for lynching Andrew. I still don't want to lynch yuma or ash. That's about it at this point, other than to say sudgy seems like a potentially easy mislynch. I think I'm still voting for him from way back, so I should Unvote.
I'll try to re-read a couple of people before I go to bed.
This reads as scum!Jimmmmm trying to clear his name of the sudgy lynch. The reads seem honest enough though.
yuma should just vig TA to prove his claim, and then we no-lynch.
And by TA I mean Andrew.
Wants to get rid of Andrew. Reads to me like Jimmmmm wants to get rid of yuma's DayKill and eliminate a Towny. He says it will "validate yuma's claim"...but in my opinion that is unnecessary. yuma is in my mind pretty likely to be Town.
I guess it's time for me to claim? I'm a split jailkeeper.
A what?
Yeah what's a split jailkeeper?
Really scummy. On both Jimmmmm and ashersky's account.
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
Why would he ask this?
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
????? Why are you asking this....
I'm assuming Andrew is smart enough not to give anything away that he shouldn't, but I'd like to see evidence that he's actually thought about this role and it's not just something that was given him as a fakeclaim.
That explanation is so weak.
Sorry sudgy, too late. I think a lynch is better than no-lynch.
Vote: sudgy
Pretty towny reasoning, but scummy combined with the previous sudgy back-off. Equals out to null.
D2:
I still think ash is Town.
I still don't understand how he could think that. I don't think he has explained yet?
I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
Any theories as to why scum yuma would claim Dayvig?
This is pretty scummy after he wanted yuma to prove his claim. If he thought yuma was town, why does he need to prove his shot?
You're still spreading suspicion.
What does that even mean? In a game centred around there being players who actively want to "kill" everyone else, you're suggesting that we not be suspicious of people?
Jimmmmm has a Towny perspective here.
I've been somewhat busy, but I'll be rereading Jimmmmm (to investigate scumminess) and Andrew (prove Townieness) soon.
You're re-reading with preconceived bias?
Eh. Null for this. His confusion would be expected as Town or Scum.
I'll wait...
I think we should lynch sudgy Today. He's probably scum. Oh wait, we did that already! Now we can make progress towards lynching actual scum instead of giving them a free kill and then doing what we would have done anyway.
Towny for Jimmmmm here. Stands by his "a lynch is better than a no lynch" which I think scum is likely to put the blame on someone.
First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.
Is rolefishing actually a thing? It's something that people are accused of fairly regularly, but have we ever actually seen scum try to make a Townie accidentally say more about their role than they should? If someone who you are considering lynching claims, you can either accept it blindly, reject it blindly, or question them about it. Which of these do you think is best?
To answer is question: In Andrew's case, I accepted it blindly. Slight Town on him for his explanation.
First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.
Here I think that Jimmmmm is getting scummily defensive. He's the one who hammered sudgy and could've let it go to no lynch.
Then there is all that "What does the green text mean?" which is sort of weird. Not scummy-weird, just weird. So Null on all that stuff.
TA is town and telling the truth.
vote: jimmmmm to have a vacation vote and because I think his reaction to TA's reveal is off.
What do you mean by off?
Not sure what ashersky means here. Slight Town on Jimmmmm for missing TA's claim.
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Synopsis: Early D1 Jimmmmm is Towny, but near the end of D1 is when he gets scummy. He gets more Towny during D2 though. He reads as 'hesistant Town', but that can easily be read as 'hesitant scum'. I'm not hardcore pushing his lynch, I still prefer ash, but I would gladly hop on the wagon if we needed a lynch before deadline. I'd still like to hear him explain why ash is town.
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Playerlist:
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Took myself, yuma, Andrew, and Xerxes off.
Me: Because I'm me.
yuma: No way this dude is scum. I mean, mayyyybe, but TA's claim pretty much confirms him as Town.
Andrew: Really think he's Town. Proof for ya'll coming soon.
Xerxes: Townslips times infinity. Either sloppy scum or obvious Town.
That leaves...
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
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I'm dumb. Those two lists are exactly the same. I already took off who I wanted to lynch off in both cases.
Andrew reread eventually coming.
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First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.
I'm not convinced of this. When you came back, Andrew had 4 votes with you and Ash not voting, and TA was on Sudgy but willing to lynch anyone to avoid a no lynch. So that would lynch Andrew. What changed it was Andrew claiming, not the Sudgy lynch being more viable. Prior to the claiming, you were in a position to determine the lynch. Or at least push the lynchee to the point of needing to claim.
Can't pull up quotes right now, but I think I have the events correctly. Will try to concretize.
Wanted to find the relevant links for why I was thinking this. In reply 801 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg363993#msg363993) Ash lists the current vote count, 5 against Sudgy, 4 against Andrew, Jimmm and Ash not voting. Earlier in reply 781 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg363949#msg363949) TA basically says he'll go for whichever of Sudgy/Andrew Jimmm decides. Ash will obviously go Andrew. So at this point, if Jimm wants Andrew, he's the target, and that's exactly what happens in 807 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364006#msg364006). Then TA says he'd go Andrew, Yuma threatens to kill anyone who votes Andrew, and Andrew comes back and claims his role. Then people start unvoting, then Sudgy happens.
Okay so I just wanted to make sure I had the facts straight. My original point was that when you came back (around post 800), you were at a point to choose between Andrewis and Sudgy, and Ash and TA had basically said they'd go for either. This is what I originally said (that Jimmm said was false):
First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.
And that's what happened. Jimm chose Andrewis for the lynch candidate. That didn't go through because of Andrewis' claim (and possibly Yuma's influence). My original point was just that this is a convenient place to be in if you're scum, as scum has knowledge here. Town just has to make a decision and most likely end up in the wrong. That's basically just something like circumstantial evidence at best, though.
I'm not sure why Jimm said what I said was false, though, unless I'm missing something.
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...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
Did you have a reread of Xeiron and ADK that puts them in this position?
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TA is town and telling the truth.
This sounds extremely certain, and since you're one of those guys that picks apart people's phrasing, I'm assuming you chose this carefully.
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unvote
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We have had a lot of claims, half claims and allusions to claims. To the point that I am starting to wonder if we should just mass orchestrate a mass claim to get everything out there and potentially catch someone in a lie (or a counter claim and more effectively use the DayVig, which I think is the optimal method)
Xeiron, yuma, ashersky, Andrew and TA appear to have all claimed something. That is half of the town atm.
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We have had a lot of claims, half claims and allusions to claims. To the point that I am starting to wonder if we should just mass orchestrate a mass claim to get everything out there and potentially catch someone in a lie (or a counter claim and more effectively use the DayVig, which I think is the optimal method)
Xeiron, yuma, ashersky, Andrew and TA appear to have all claimed something. That is half of the town atm.
I don't have a problem with it if everyone thinks it's a good idea. I've thought about it a few times, and my concern was that if everyone has roles and flavors that make sense, then we might just be giving scum all the information they need to know who to target at night, and we won't have revealed anything useful for us.
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I'm up for a yuma-led massclaim.
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Cool with a massclaun
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But I completely missed xeiron's claim, what was it?
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And ash's too. I really don't think ash has claimed.
Maybe you mean xerxes and not xeiron? He claimed flavor but not role?
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And ash's too. I really don't think ash has claimed.
Maybe you mean xerxes and not xeiron? He claimed flavor but not role?
Yes I meant xerxes. He claimed Mailman?
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Oh I missed it, I'll go back and find it.
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I'm fine with a massclaim.
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
Did you have a reread of Xeiron and ADK that puts them in this position?
No. Xeiron has been scummy for pretty much reasons brought up by everyone else. ADK for being scummier than Andrew with the 3 scum thing. Both are pretty heavy lurkers.
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Checking in from poolside. I think mass claim is what scum wants. Won't fight majority, but think we should be careful. Mass claim helps scum solvf set up faster than town. See like every rmm with too much claiming ever.
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I'm fine with a massclaim.
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
Did you have a reread of Xeiron and ADK that puts them in this position?
No. Xeiron has been scummy for pretty much reasons brought up by everyone else. ADK for being scummier than Andrew with the 3 scum thing. Both are pretty heavy lurkers.
You've been a heavy lurker, too.
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I'm fine with a massclaim.
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
Did you have a reread of Xeiron and ADK that puts them in this position?
No. Xeiron has been scummy for pretty much reasons brought up by everyone else. ADK for being scummier than Andrew with the 3 scum thing. Both are pretty heavy lurkers.
You've been a heavy lurker, too.
Yep. :)
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And ash's too. I really don't think ash has claimed.
Maybe you mean xerxes and not xeiron? He claimed flavor but not role?
Yes I meant xerxes. He claimed Mailman?
Xerxes claimed both flavor and role.
Flavor, Egwene (claimed D1)
role, mailman (claimed D2)
As for massclaim, I am undecided.
My intuition tells me that this is a game where scum in general benefits more from massclaims than town do. Partly because right now we have a IC with a somewhat weak role (Yuma). Scum would have to choose between killing the IC or killing among the nonclaimed if they want to hit a stronger role or a SK. After a massclaim that decition gets much easier for scum as they know how strong the strongest roles are.
On the flip side, we are starting to aquire a small collection of semi-IC's. A massclaim could get us one or two more, and then it is pretty straightforward to lynch the rest. In addition, any flavor cops or similar among us gets more powerful if we claim.
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OK...
I think I am leaning towards using mass claim as a secondary measure. The reason I want to do it is because I feel like we have very little to go off in terms of reads on people. My reads are pretty much blah and I feel like a mass claim might narrow down the field and give us more to go off but it is weighed by the risks of scum having info.
So basically I would like some better reads to be established (I know people are busy! I am too!) and if that doesn't happen maybe we can look at mass claim closer to deadline... which is:
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
ridiculously soon...
So maybe we don't have time to do try and get reads and then mass claim after. If we are going to do it, we need to do it soon.
I'll think a bit more
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Holy crap today is the 14th!? I've been out of town the past week and a half or so, phone posting when I could which wasn't very often because my phone just isn't holding a charge and I was in a car or sleeping (mostly in a car) for most of that time. Anyway, I think a massclaim is a bad idea. What could it possibly accomplish at this moment? Scum has fakeclaims so I don't see how we're going to catch anyone in a lie and I doubt there'll be counterclaims as mail-mi has probably made each one different. Again this is my first RMM game so you guys might know more about that than me. On the other hand maybe we could do a mass flavor claim and possibly get info from that? But I still don't see that doing much.
Who are we lynching tonight? I could do ash or Jimm, possibly TA or somebody else if a good case is provided but we need to organize this soon. I think this is correct:
ashersky (2): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (2): Twistedarcher, XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (1): ashersky
xeiron (2): Jimmmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): xeiron
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
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I'm fine with either ashersky or Jimmmmm. Ash is much more my preference, but I'll vote for Jimmmmm to get a lynch through.
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By the way I'm home for the next two days and I leave again for another week and a half or so, so don't expect me to be super active.
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I prefer to dayvig/lynch Jimm, A Drowned Kernel or Archetype. I can also accept Ashersky or Xerxes.
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I'd be willing to lynch ash, jimm (wow, this looks similar to everyone else), ADK, TA, in that order.
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I'd be willing to lynch ash, jimm (wow, this looks similar to everyone else), ADK, TA, in that order.
Why?
I may have missed something, but I don't think I've seen anyone give a good reason to lynch either ash or me.
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Alright. No mass claim. But we need to get going on a lynch.
I see lots of people saying they are willing to lynch someone, but very few saying why. Right now I am far more concerned about the why then the whom.
Linking to old posts is acceptable as I may have missed previous posts. I am working today and tomorrow, but will be home during the deadline. But I would really like to get my shot off before the deadline (at least a few hours, preferably more) so that we could lynch someone else if the person I shoot flips scum.
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Vote Count 2.4:
ashersky (2): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
xeiron (1): Jimmmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.
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I've been trying to reread.. it's hard for this game. Day 1 is like 1000 posts. My general impressions...
One thought is, I think it benefits scum to have a slow game leading up to the deadline and then a rushed vote. There really isn't enough time to understand everything and think things through, and there isn't enough time to change lynch candidates either, or get input from people who aren't constantly on. This was a big cause of a crucial Day 2 mislynch in the other game I played (newbie House of Cards). Also on Day 1 of this game everything was going on in the last 1-2 hours. And I think a nolynch today is better for scum than for town.
So I think Yuma is right that we need to get moving. I also think that all the talk on Yuma's role and its validity is distracting us. If Yuma had never claimed, I'd probably still think he was town from the way he acts. This would lead me to suspect those that were really concerned with Yuma proving himself today.. I believe that was Twisted Archer and Xeiron. TA seemed towny to me before, and I think his claim about Yuma almost confirms him as town. So more suspicion on Xeiron than on TA here.
Another thought. If the whole Yuma v. people talking about his role is town v. town, then I would think scum would just want to sit back and let it all play out. The delay is working perfectly well for them, and they don't want to move things onto the right track. So this leads me to suspect people being quiet, or posting but not really adding to the conversation. That would be, Xerxes, Arch, ADK, possibly Jimm but he was posting some stuff about it. Ash is on vacation so I don't know if there's anything to be said about him in this regard. TA, Xeiron, and Yuma would be town in this assumption. Andrewis falls into this category too, but he's not someone I want to lynch today (I guess I should be careful here. It's Andrewis' claim flavor/role claim that makes me not want to lynch him. It's probably wrong to be completely swayed by that, so I should allow for some doubt. Regardless, I don't plan to vote for him today.)
From my rereads, Ash seems less scummy than when I was originally reading all the posts. His play reminds me of Shraeye on Day 1/2 in my other game, where Shraeye was town and aggressively pushed two mislynches through. So my Day 1 read is a little more null. I still find Ash's actions on Day 2 kind of questionable, though.. not sure why he is hammering on Andrewis so hard, especially when just about everyone disagrees with Ash. I actually don't see this making sense for either town, or scum. I guess he either has to be really really sure of his read as town and hopes he can reveal something, or feels he needs to act really really sure as scum. So unsure here, slight scum read.
I already posted my reread results on Jimmm. His play reminds me of Faust (scum) in the same game, who was fairly non-present during Day 1, but came in with a pre-established reason to hammer the mislynch (in Faust's case, a VT claim; in Jimm's case, a strategy policy of preferring lynching over non-lynching).
Andrewis I've put in the not-lynching category, though when I reread Day 1, I still react the same way that did when I was originally reading it. So assuming he turns out to be town here, he's probably just someone that I have a misunderstanding with when communicating online.
Xeiron... he had that weird interaction with Jimm at the beginning of the game about questioning Yuma's claim.. and then a much larger discussion today about a similar thing. Xeiron and Jimm seemed to switch sides on the issue, which I found a little odd, but, like has been said, people change their minds. I still didn't figure out why people said he was super scummy on Day 1... I don't think anyone ever justified it. His Day 2 behavior with Yuma I find more questionable, because of my first paragraph.
Archetype.. non-present as well. When he does post he seems to post about reads, but doesn't ever say why, or when he does the explanations don't really resonate with me.
ADK.. very similar to Archetype.. lurking, voting, not really explaining. Reminds me of him in my other game where he was scum. I don't know what to take form his vote against Andrewis today.. especially since he was pretty against voting for Andrewis yesterday. Maybe he was obligated to not vote against Andrewis since he made the same "slip" that Andrewis did.
Xerxes .. what mostly stands out is the claiming. He has a flavor claim and a role claim that fits the flavor (not what I would have guessed, but it does fit very well), but he decided to claim them without anyone asking, any suspicion on him, or anyone agreeing that claiming was good. And his role seems to be non-verifiable (today). Not sure what to take from it.. he says it helps us narrow down scum, but it doesn't really at all if it doesn't make him look any more town.
Yuma is basically confirmed town, and on Day 1 he seemed either town or brilliant gambitist. TA has seemed fairly town throughout.. I'm not sure why/how he could have lied about Yuma or be scum and found what he did about Yuma. I don't want to lynch either of Yuma/TA.
Okay so.. I would want someone from the set of {ADK, Xeiron, Xerxes, Jimmm, Archetype, Ash}. My preferences would probably be ADK or Jimm, maybe Xerxes. I'd prefer to wait on Ash unless he comes back before deadline.
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I'd be willing to lynch ash, jimm (wow, this looks similar to everyone else), ADK, TA, in that order.
I didn't see this before. Can you explain the scenario where TA is scum?
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I never noticed him, and scum doesn't want to be noticed.
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I'd be willing to lynch ash, jimm (wow, this looks similar to everyone else), ADK, TA, in that order.
I didn't see this before. Can you explain the scenario where TA is scum?
As I was reading your last post I realized that I forgot about him revealing yuma as town, but at the same time that could be seen as TA looking for towncred (I knew you were going to ask me about that). But still not enough for me to vote him today.
I still think ash is scum and we should lynch him today. Like shraeye said and most people have witnessed, scum!ash is very bold which is what he's been in the game. His case on me is completely trumped up and he's flailing to call any post of mine a scumtell. His plan is to put everything out there, be so completely focused and determined on one person that people just dismiss it and think "there's no way scum would push for something that hard", which is exactly what had happened.
If nobody wants to do that, though, I also think Jimm has a good chance of flipping scum based off his lurking D1 and last minute hammer, as well his weird questions at the end of D1. I say "weird" because it's not exactly scummy, but we're pretty much looking for anything out of place or anything that jumps out at you to determine scum reads. So for me, "weird" is very close to "scummy" and I'd be willing to put my vote there if I have to. Arch's posts on Jimm are conflicted but there are a couple spots that highlight Jimm's slightly off posting.
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I never noticed him, and scum doesn't want to be noticed.
But uh.. with the latest Yuma interactions?
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I'd be willing to lynch ash, jimm (wow, this looks similar to everyone else), ADK, TA, in that order.
I didn't see this before. Can you explain the scenario where TA is scum?
As I was reading your last post I realized that I forgot about him revealing yuma as town, but at the same time that could be seen as TA looking for towncred (I knew you were going to ask me about that). But still not enough for me to vote him today.
Well I was asking Xerxes, but I see you had a similar list, so thanks for answering too :)
The thing is, TA could not have made up what he said about Yuma unless he (1) Knew Yuma's flavor (only possible if they're both scum), (2) knew enough of the flavor to know what item to claim Yuma has. So I'm pretty positive he's telling the truth here, and TA's role really let him do this.
So I guess the question is, could TA be scum with this role? I'm inclined to think not.
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Sorry, I forgot exactly what went down with the Maiden spear and all.
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I would be against a mass claim at any point today.
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I would be against a mass claim at any point today.
Great. We aren't going to. Thoughts on who I should vig (we should lynch) in less than 24 hours from now?
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Ok... people I am taking out of the lynch pool so we can start to move forward a little bit.
(TA, yuma, Andrew)
If you are voting for these people unvote or thinking about voting them just don't. They aren't being vigged today.
We still need people voting for Jimmmm to more succinctly explain why they are voting for whom they are voting and for a few people to vote to begin with...
I will be doing a reread myself before deadline and if it comes down to it I will just shoot whomever I have a strongest scum read on at the end of the day if we can't get consensus... but keep in mind that people that aren't helping find a consensus are going to move up the radar in scuminess...
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There are also two (maybe even three) people whom I am leaning on removing from the pool as well. I will with hold their names for now as I want some reactions and reads on them before making a decision.
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Sorry I am super pressed for time and no time tonight. I should be around tomorrow but it depends on what time I get home...
Happy with Jimmmmm, but really whoever you want to shoot Yuma is cool. I'm fine with Jimmmm, Arch, ADK (same reads as Xeiron, I think). Less fine but ok with Xeiron and maaaaaybe Ash. Don't want Xerxes or WW.
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I'm confused about the Jim lynch. Is there a solid reason anyone has for shooting him or has this game just stagnated to the point where people are fine lynching whoever?
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I'm confused about the Jim lynch. Is there a solid reason anyone has for shooting him or has this game just stagnated to the point where people are fine lynching whoever?
The latter I think. Town-aligned players are ready to punish me for poor play without too much thought about whether or how that makes me scum, and any scum who are on the wagon are obviously happy for a caseless lynch to go through.
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I'm confused about the Jim lynch. Is there a solid reason anyone has for shooting him or has this game just stagnated to the point where people are fine lynching whoever?
The latter I think. Town-aligned players are ready to punish me for poor play without too much thought about whether or how that makes me scum, and any scum who are on the wagon are obviously happy for a caseless lynch to go through.
That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I have no "case." Just gut feelings. I think he is a good lynch, not a good vig target.
Vig target means no one but Yuma is accountable. Lynch means everyone is involved.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
I think you make fair statements there, and I think scum ride your lynch into night, if you are in fact town.
That said, it isn't like you are towny. I expected a different reaction from town!jimmmmm here. My expectation could be wrong, but it's what determines my reads at this point. I'm barely checking in on vacation, so I'm going with gut and trying to contribute.
I'll read other cases on others. I'm just not seeing anything, and no one trusts me on Andrew.
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I expected a different reaction from town!jimmmmm here.
What reaction would you expect?
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I expected a different reaction from town!jimmmmm here.
What reaction would you expect?
Understanding and apologetic, not irritated or annoyed. Also, more effort.
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I expected a different reaction from town!jimmmmm here.
What reaction would you expect?
Understanding and apologetic, not irritated or annoyed. Also, more effort.
What instance of town!Jimmmmm are you referring to?
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I'm alright with Vigging xeiron or ADK. Both are scummy in my eyes, but dont seem to be getting that much attention. A quick kill could be radical enough to catch scum off guard if one of their team members were shot.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
I think you make fair statements there, and I think scum ride your lynch into night, if you are in fact town.
That said, it isn't like you are towny. I expected a different reaction from town!jimmmmm here. My expectation could be wrong, but it's what determines my reads at this point. I'm barely checking in on vacation, so I'm going with gut and trying to contribute.
I'll read other cases on others. I'm just not seeing anything, and no one trusts me on Andrew.
Is this from knowledge of playing with Jimmm before? I would think that mafia would be a lot more concerned about getting voted for and they'd want a more rigorous defense. This sort of resolve to getting deaded seems more like disinterested town, like Sudgy was.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
No, you were not correct. You implied that I got to choose the lynch. That was false.
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Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
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Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
I find myself Towny. I find yuma Towny. I find ash Towny. I even find xeiron, the person I'm currently voting for Towny. I have literally no idea who is likely to be scum.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
No, you were not correct. You implied that I got to choose the lynch. That was false.
This seems to be nitpicking semantics. I said lynch candidate, as in the person that we're going to lynch unless something changes our mind, which the role claim did. It was your pick between Sudgy and Andrewis, and you chose Andrewis. It didn't happen to go through because of his claim, but you still chose him. I'm confused as to why you're debating this point. It's not like I had some solid argument to prove you're scum that relies on this one piece. I was asking myself "does it make sense for Jimm to be scum?" when looking back at Day 1. And then I observed that you were in a position of influence, and a place where not a lot about your motives could be deduced from your voting.
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Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
I find myself Towny. I find yuma Towny. I find ash Towny. I even find xeiron, the person I'm currently voting for Towny. I have literally no idea who is likely to be scum.
Okay I agree with Yuma and obviously you'll say that about yourself. Why Ash and Xeiron?
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
No, you were not correct. You implied that I got to choose the lynch. That was false.
This seems to be nitpicking semantics. I said lynch candidate, as in the person that we're going to lynch unless something changes our mind, which the role claim did. It was your pick between Sudgy and Andrewis, and you chose Andrewis. It didn't happen to go through because of his claim, but you still chose him. I'm confused as to why you're debating this point. It's not like I had some solid argument to prove you're scum that relies on this one piece. I was asking myself "does it make sense for Jimm to be scum?" when looking back at Day 1. And then I observed that you were in a position of influence, and a place where not a lot about your motives could be deduced from your voting.
Name one person I influenced.
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Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
I find myself Towny. I find yuma Towny. I find ash Towny. I even find xeiron, the person I'm currently voting for Towny. I have literally no idea who is likely to be scum.
Okay I agree with Yuma and obviously you'll say that about yourself. Why Ash and Xeiron?
ash from ages ago, I can't even remember why. Just the way he was approaching the game. xeiron because after I voted for him I had the exact same thought that yuma had - scum would be unlikely to vote yuma out of the blue.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
No, you were not correct. You implied that I got to choose the lynch. That was false.
This seems to be nitpicking semantics. I said lynch candidate, as in the person that we're going to lynch unless something changes our mind, which the role claim did. It was your pick between Sudgy and Andrewis, and you chose Andrewis. It didn't happen to go through because of his claim, but you still chose him. I'm confused as to why you're debating this point. It's not like I had some solid argument to prove you're scum that relies on this one piece. I was asking myself "does it make sense for Jimm to be scum?" when looking back at Day 1. And then I observed that you were in a position of influence, and a place where not a lot about your motives could be deduced from your voting.
Name one person I influenced.
Okay maybe things look different to me because I was gone for all of this and had to go back and reread everything later that night and the next day. But that way it looked to me was that Ash and TA would vote for either Sudgy or Andrew, and they needed your vote. And then you said "Don't see Sudgy, let's do Andrew" (paraphrased). Then Ash followed you and TA said he'd be willing to vote Andrew. Then Yuma starts threatening people and Andrew claims, and then the votes switch to Sudgy.
Ash followed you, TA was going to as well.
Am I missing something here?
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Vote Count 2.5:
ashersky (2): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
xeiron (1): Jimmmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT. THAT'S TODAY. Jorbles probably won't be around for deadline, but if it looks like we'll be going to deadline and neither of us will be around for it, we'll ask someone to lock the thread for us when appropriate.
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That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
You didn't really respond to what I said before. You disagreed with part of my post saying it was false, and I went back and checked that I was correct and posted more explanation.
No, you were not correct. You implied that I got to choose the lynch. That was false.
This seems to be nitpicking semantics. I said lynch candidate, as in the person that we're going to lynch unless something changes our mind, which the role claim did. It was your pick between Sudgy and Andrewis, and you chose Andrewis. It didn't happen to go through because of his claim, but you still chose him. I'm confused as to why you're debating this point. It's not like I had some solid argument to prove you're scum that relies on this one piece. I was asking myself "does it make sense for Jimm to be scum?" when looking back at Day 1. And then I observed that you were in a position of influence, and a place where not a lot about your motives could be deduced from your voting.
Name one person I influenced.
Okay maybe things look different to me because I was gone for all of this and had to go back and reread everything later that night and the next day. But that way it looked to me was that Ash and TA would vote for either Sudgy or Andrew, and they needed your vote. And then you said "Don't see Sudgy, let's do Andrew" (paraphrased). Then Ash followed you and TA said he'd be willing to vote Andrew. Then Yuma starts threatening people and Andrew claims, and then the votes switch to Sudgy.
Ash followed you, TA was going to as well.
Am I missing something here?
Yes. If you're saying ash, the absolute champion of the Andrew lynch followed me, then you're missing something.
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Yes. If you're saying ash, the absolute champion of the Andrew lynch followed me, then you're missing something.
But you voted (807 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364006#msg364006)), and then Ash voted (809 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364010#msg364010)). Yes he wanted Andrew, but if you had voted Sudgy, I think Ash would have voted Sudgy as well. And TA.
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Yes. If you're saying ash, the absolute champion of the Andrew lynch followed me, then you're missing something.
But you voted (807 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364006#msg364006)), and then Ash voted (809 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364010#msg364010)). Yes he wanted Andrew, but if you had voted Sudgy, I think Ash would have voted Sudgy as well. And TA.
But what actually happened was that they voted sudgy and so I voted sudgy. I mean, it was close to deadline, there were two possible lynches and I didn't have my vote on either. That made me one of multiple people who could contribute to either lynch, but everyone in the game other than the two of them was in a position to push the lynch the other way. And when I did choose one of them, I chose Andrew. sudgy was Town which means if I'm scum then either I ended up choosing my partner over a non-partner, which seems like a stunning use of the influence which I supposedly had, or the choice was between two non-partners, in which case what do I possibly benefit from making sure I get to choose which non-partner is lynched?
Basically what your argument boils down to is that I'm scummy because I didn't have a vote down, which is pretty much the whole non-contributing thing, which is old news and I'd hope you'd have something more on me by now.
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Just putting it out there. WW has been incessantly interrogating people, usually on one specific moment in the game that has no consequence on anything (whitch he admits himself). Although he makes nice organized posts with quotes and links and such I think he posts overall are pretty empty and could just be active scum, trying to post something of consequence even if nothing comes of it. He has also gotten a free pass the whole game with only a couple people voting him for short periods of time. It's enough for me to
vote: Witherweaver
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Yes. If you're saying ash, the absolute champion of the Andrew lynch followed me, then you're missing something.
But you voted (807 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364006#msg364006)), and then Ash voted (809 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9962.msg364010#msg364010)). Yes he wanted Andrew, but if you had voted Sudgy, I think Ash would have voted Sudgy as well. And TA.
But what actually happened was that they voted sudgy and so I voted sudgy. I mean, it was close to deadline, there were two possible lynches and I didn't have my vote on either. That made me one of multiple people who could contribute to either lynch, but everyone in the game other than the two of them was in a position to push the lynch the other way. And when I did choose one of them, I chose Andrew. sudgy was Town which means if I'm scum then either I ended up choosing my partner over a non-partner, which seems like a stunning use of the influence which I supposedly had, or the choice was between two non-partners, in which case what do I possibly benefit from making sure I get to choose which non-partner is lynched?
Well there could be a benefit of choosing one above the other. One may be an easier mislynch for the next day.. one might have more influence over other players and it's better to get rid of them (or keep them).
Basically what your argument boils down to is that I'm scummy because I didn't have a vote down, which is pretty much the whole non-contributing thing, which is old news and I'd hope you'd have something more on me by now.
Yes that's fair. And I don't really. A lot of people had thrown suspicion at you, and I didn't really see it during Day 1, so I went back and reread everything to see if I could understand why, and that's what I found.
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Just putting it out there. WW has been incessantly interrogating people, usually on one specific moment in the game that has no consequence on anything (whitch he admits himself). Although he makes nice organized posts with quotes and links and such I think he posts overall are pretty empty and could just be active scum, trying to post something of consequence even if nothing comes of it. He has also gotten a free pass the whole game with only a couple people voting him for short periods of time. It's enough for me to
vote: Witherweaver
Well I don't think that I'm incessantly interrogating people.. It seems to me that the game is stalling, so I'm trying to get conversations going. I've gone back and read things quite a few times, and I don't know what else I can find there.
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Quick post from work using buddies phone...
I hate to do this as I don't think it is optimal ic play but I feel given our status we have to... I am limiting the field of potential candidates to: ADK witherweaver and Archetype.
Please focus hunting efforts on these three! consider l1 intent to hammer from me and claim at that point if you desire.
Focus on who their partners could or could not be. I would like to shoot when I get home from work... so we have time to talk and lynch again if I hit scum.
I understand that you might have scum reads on others but please focus on these three. I have thought hard about this and hopefully am on the right track.
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Just putting it out there. WW has been incessantly interrogating people, usually on one specific moment in the game that has no consequence on anything (whitch he admits himself). Although he makes nice organized posts with quotes and links and such I think he posts overall are pretty empty and could just be active scum, trying to post something of consequence even if nothing comes of it. He has also gotten a free pass the whole game with only a couple people voting him for short periods of time. It's enough for me to
vote: Witherweaver
I was thinking along similar lines. Vote: Witherweaver
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Quick post from work using buddies phone...
I hate to do this as I don't think it is optimal ic play but I feel given our status we have to... I am limiting the field of potential candidates to: ADK witherweaver and Archetype.
Please focus hunting efforts on these three! consider l1 intent to hammer from me and claim at that point if you desire.
Focus on who their partners could or could not be. I would like to shoot when I get home from work... so we have time to talk and lynch again if I hit scum.
I understand that you might have scum reads on others but please focus on these three. I have thought hard about this and hopefully am on the right track.
Well not me :) ADK and Archetype feel very similar to me. It's tough to think in terms of partners because they've barely been interacting.
ADK with Ash could make some sense. ADK and Andrewis both did the "slip", and Ash jumped on Andrewis a lot harder than ADK. There was a cover that ADK allowed for some uncertainty in his wording, but that is a little flimsy. It's possible Ash could be deflecting from suspicion on ADK by focusing heavily on Andrew.
If ADK and Archetype are both scum, then their partner probably has to be someone more present.
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yuma why aren't you even considering scum!ash?
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Vote Count 2.6:
ashersky (1): Archetype,
Jimmmmmm (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Witherweaver (2): AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT. THAT'S TODAY. Jorbles probably won't be around for deadline, but if it looks like we'll be going to deadline and neither of us will be around for it, we'll ask someone to lock the thread for us when appropriate. Mail-mi should be here for deadline.
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I haven't reread everything so I could be wrong but it seems like WW has been very careful not to sheep anyone and to keep his distance from everyone else. He's also very hesitant to put a vote anywhere. The same can be said about ADK although that's probably more lurking than anything else.
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I haven't reread everything so I could be wrong but it seems like WW has been very careful not to sheep anyone and to keep his distance from everyone else. He's also very hesitant to put a vote anywhere. The same can be said about ADK although that's probably more lurking than anything else.
I don't like to vote unless I have a decent feeling the person is scum, or possibly if I think it could provoke useful discussion. I've been pretty lost today and don't really have any good leads. I have a lot more town reads and the remaining scum is mostly just process of elimination rather than a good feeling or argument. I think that's where a lot of people are in this game.
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yuma why aren't you even considering scum!ash?
You sound like me talking about you. You realize this, right?
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Yuma's trio is solid; they are in the middle of the activity spectrum, good acti-lurker location. Of the three, I guess Arch is "towniest." ADK is playing? That's literally my first thought on him, so he's probably likeliest lurking partner scum. WW is more active than the other two, so maybe trying harder (too hard?). I assume some of these reasons match up with yuma's.
I'm not rereading anything until I'm back home, so this is all from memory. I'm not imagining anyone will have a problem with any of these three.
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I would prefer Jimmmmm over these 3. I'm not heartbroken over any of them getting lynched, but I'd probably prefer Arch or ADK over WW.
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We have 54 pages of ridiculousness and you guys wants to lynch lurkers (ADK, Arch to an extent)? Seriously? I could do ash, WW, or Jimm, but I think Jimm is pretty town despite his end of D1 stuff.
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We have 54 pages of ridiculousness and you guys wants to lynch lurkers (ADK, Arch to an extent)? Seriously? I could do ash, WW, or Jimm, but I think Jimm is pretty town despite his end of D1 stuff.
The thing is I think lurking is what scum would want to do.. certainly it's what I would want to do. Talking brings attention to you and gets you voted for, which is what I think is happening to me now.
I'm tending to think Jimm is more town than I previously had after my back and forths with him, as well.
I could do Ash (I don't find him as scummy as I did at first, but I still find him scummy), but it doesn't seem right to lynch a person while they're off on vacation.
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We have 54 pages of ridiculousness and you guys wants to lynch lurkers (ADK, Arch to an extent)? Seriously? I could do ash, WW, or Jimm, but I think Jimm is pretty town despite his end of D1 stuff.
The thing is I think lurking is what scum would want to do.. certainly it's what I would want to do. Talking brings attention to you and gets you voted for, which is what I think is happening to me now.
I'm tending to think Jimm is more town than I previously had after my back and forths with him, as well.
I could do Ash (I don't find him as scummy as I did at first, but I still find him scummy), but it doesn't seem right to lynch a person while they're off on vacation.
This is scummy, especially the bolded part. (But I'm not lurking here, so I must be town!)
I remember very little about Arch this game -- moreso about ADK. I don't have a great handle on either, though.
I'd rather lynch Jimmmm.
Andrew, what's your view on Jimmmm - town or scum? You say you'd lynch him but you think he's pretty towny in the same post.
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Or lurking attracts attention like it is to ADK and Arch. You can't definitively say scum lurks and town is active.
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We have 54 pages of ridiculousness and you guys wants to lynch lurkers (ADK, Arch to an extent)? Seriously? I could do ash, WW, or Jimm, but I think Jimm is pretty town despite his end of D1 stuff.
The thing is I think lurking is what scum would want to do.. certainly it's what I would want to do. Talking brings attention to you and gets you voted for, which is what I think is happening to me now.
I'm tending to think Jimm is more town than I previously had after my back and forths with him, as well.
I could do Ash (I don't find him as scummy as I did at first, but I still find him scummy), but it doesn't seem right to lynch a person while they're off on vacation.
This is scummy, especially the bolded part. (But I'm not lurking here, so I must be town!)
I remember very little about Arch this game -- moreso about ADK. I don't have a great handle on either, though.
I'd rather lynch Jimmmm.
Andrew, what's your view on Jimmmm - town or scum? You say you'd lynch him but you think he's pretty towny in the same post.
Well it's what I think. I don't really have anything else to go by. I have to imagine "what would I do in this situation" and try to go from there.
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I'd rather not lynch Jimm, I think he's town at this point. However, I can see how things he's said could be interpreted as scummy and I'd put my vote there if he is the preferred lynch.
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Or lurking attracts attention like it is to ADK and Arch. You can't definitively say scum lurks and town is active.
Well yeah that's a good point. But we're kind of at a point here where there haven't really been any good candidates or convincing arguments presented, but people are pretty much ready to grab of anyone that isn't confirmed town or almost confirmed town and vote for them. So not doing a lot seems safer.
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Or lurking attracts attention like it is to ADK and Arch. You can't definitively say scum lurks and town is active.
Well yeah that's a good point. But we're kind of at a point here where there haven't really been any good candidates or convincing arguments presented, but people are pretty much ready to grab of anyone that isn't confirmed town or almost confirmed town and vote for them. So not doing a lot seems safer.
You can say that as much as you want but I think I've presented good cases on ash and to a lesser extent you. Whether or not people choose to read them or even comment on them is their concern.
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Quick post from work using buddies phone...
I hate to do this as I don't think it is optimal ic play but I feel given our status we have to... I am limiting the field of potential candidates to: ADK witherweaver and Archetype.
Please focus hunting efforts on these three! consider l1 intent to hammer from me and claim at that point if you desire.
Focus on who their partners could or could not be. I would like to shoot when I get home from work... so we have time to talk and lynch again if I hit scum.
I understand that you might have scum reads on others but please focus on these three. I have thought hard about this and hopefully am on the right track.
I do not think Witerweaver is mafia, so I strongly prefer ADK or Archetype.
I did read both of them, but I did not find much. Nothing I could pull up to prove they are scum, and nothink to convince me of their townyness.
Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
I find myself Towny. I find yuma Towny. I find ash Towny. I even find xeiron, the person I'm currently voting for Towny. I have literally no idea who is likely to be scum.
Jimmm really hit this game on the head in this quote. I too feels that I lack scum reads. That was one of the main reasons why I started to fear that the scumteam was hiding behind Yuma and his semi-IC status.
now that TA cleared up that matter, I think a good portion of the scumteam is hiding amongst the lurkers. what better explanation is there of the lack of scummy content is there than scum being players that posts little content.
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I will go with a vote: A Drowned Kernel because he fits on so many possible scumteams.
He makes a nice partner with Archetype because of their lack of interaction with each other. They have mostly been keeping each other towards the middle of their scumreads (Archetype voted for ADK, but is was during a "safe"moment with the andrew wagon being on the rise).
Speaking of Andrews... I mentioned D1 that I would be suspicious of ADK if Andrews should flip scum because of the way ADK defended him. I still stand for that.
ADK is one of the few persons not to vote jimmm, or to put him on a want to lynch list D2. He have jimmmm on his 'willing to lynch'-list, but questions the wagon
I'm confused about the Jim lynch. Is there a solid reason anyone has for shooting him or has this game just stagnated to the point where people are fine lynching whoever?
I agree with yuma's plan.
I'm reading jimmmm as towny right now or at least null, I don't see how his reaction to TA's result was scummy or troublesome.
jimmmmm barely mentiones ADK maken them good potential scummates.
Xerxes and ADK is another couple that barely interact with each other.
ADK mentiones Xerxes as a scumread early in the game.
xeiron I'm finding scummy, like he's willing to lynch literally anybody. XP's OMGUS against ash is stirring some warning bells.
People I would like to lynch: sudgy, shraeye (I don't think that's happening though)
People I wouldn't mind lynching: xeiron, XP
I go back and forth on ash, which is what I did all day every day in Super Mario Bros, so yeah, but I don't think I would lynch him today.
I like my vote for sudgy. People should vote for sudgy.
Note that ADKs resoning here is pretty defuse. He also never votes Xerxes. Just like the classic "I want to have my scumpartner as a scumread without saying anything that might contribute to lynching them" mindset.
This is starting to get repetitive. But really, name your scumreads and ADK fits as their partner. I find it harder to construct believable scumteams without ADK than with him and that makes him a good choice for dayvigging/lynching.
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I won't be around for most of the night. Another volleyball match, maybe two. I might be able to check a bit on my phone. I should be back before 11 PM at the latest (but possibly earlier), so I should not miss the deadline.
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Just putting it out there. WW has been incessantly interrogating people, usually on one specific moment in the game that has no consequence on anything (whitch he admits himself). Although he makes nice organized posts with quotes and links and such I think he posts overall are pretty empty and could just be active scum, trying to post something of consequence even if nothing comes of it. He has also gotten a free pass the whole game with only a couple people voting him for short periods of time. It's enough for me to
vote: Witherweaver
I am getting a townread in WW for just the reason you are describing here. I think scum more often are the ones answering questions and commenting on sitiations. Not the ones asking the questions and raising new topics, as I see witherweawer are doing.
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It is getting late here and I will not be around to deadline.
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Intent to Dayvig: ADK
Please claim if you intend to, or state that you will not claim at your earliest opportunity.
Also present final reads...
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yuma why aren't you even considering scum!ash?
I am considering him. Just because I didn't put him in my final three doesn't mean I am not considering him. Tomorrow if he is still alive town should absolutely consider him. But for various reasons I did not like his lynch/vig today.
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Ok. What I actually meant was "the possibility of scum!ash" which I think you picked up on.
Well I guess WW isn't getting lynched today? What do other people think of him?
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Ok. What I actually meant was "the possibility of scum!ash" which I think you picked up on.
Well I guess WW isn't getting lynched today? What do other people think of him?
For me I see reasons to not lynch WW and reasons to lynch him.
For ADK I see reason to lynch WW and zero reasons to not lynch him.
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Sorry, that second sentence confuses the hell out of me. Do you mean wait until ADK's flip?
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Sorry, that second sentence confuses the hell out of me. Do you mean wait until ADK's flip?
it is a very confusing and poorly written statement...
Let me try again:
For me I see reasons to not lynch WW and reasons to lynch him.
For me I see reasons to not lynch ADK and zero reasons to lynch him.
Better?
Basically I think WW is scummy and I have all game. It is why I included him on the list. But there are reasons I don't want to lynch him, whereas there are basically none for ADK.
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Got it. But you're planning on vigging ADK. I'm talking about the lynch. I guess we could talk more about that after the ADK flip if we get to see it right away, which would require a mod to be online, which might not happen.
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Got it. But you're planning on vigging ADK. I'm talking about the lynch. I guess we could talk more about that after the ADK flip if we get to see it right away, which would require a mod to be online, which might not happen.
If ADK flips town I don't think we should lynch again, period... If ADK flips scum... do you think we should lynch WW? I am not sure I do... But I am not sure whom.
But yeah, we might not have time to lynch regardless because of the mod situation.
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Vote Count 2.7:
ashersky (1): Archetype,
Jimmmmmm (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Witherweaver (2): AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): xeiron
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT. THAT'S TODAY. Jorbles plans changed and should be in and out until deadline. Mail-mi should be here for deadline.
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WHY IS NO ONE HERE!
This is not the buildup toward the end of day2 that I anticipated at all.... This isn't the day2 I anticipated at all....
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I'm here.
Yuma: Do you think ADK is the most likely to flip scum?
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Yuma, if ADK doesn't show up in the next hour or so, I think you should either Vig him or save your shot for another day. If you wait too long, we may not be able to get a lynch in.
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I'm here.
Yuma: Do you think ADK is the most likely to flip scum?
Nevermind. Missed this:
Sorry, that second sentence confuses the hell out of me. Do you mean wait until ADK's flip?
it is a very confusing and poorly written statement...
Let me try again:
For me I see reasons to not lynch WW and reasons to lynch him.
For me I see reasons to not lynch ADK and zero reasons to lynch him.
Better?
Basically I think WW is scummy and I have all game. It is why I included him on the list. But there are reasons I don't want to lynch him, whereas there are basically none for ADK.
If you think WW is scummy, why don't you Vig him?
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Yo. I guess we are using the vig in lieu of a lynch.
Adk is alright with me, still prefer jimm though.
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Sorry, that second sentence confuses the hell out of me. Do you mean wait until ADK's flip?
it is a very confusing and poorly written statement...
Let me try again:
For me I see reasons to not lynch WW and reasons to lynch him.
For me I see reasons to not lynch ADK and zero reasons to lynch him.
Better?
Basically I think WW is scummy and I have all game. It is why I included him on the list. But there are reasons I don't want to lynch him, whereas there are basically none for ADK.
If you think WW is scummy, why don't you Vig him?
See what I said above...
I think both are scummy and see reasons to vig both. But I see reasons to not vig WW whereas I don't see any for ADK.
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Yuma, if ADK doesn't show up in the next hour or so, I think you should either Vig him or save your shot for another day. If you wait too long, we may not be able to get a lynch in.
Again, I feel like people are barely following what is being said in this game...
IF ADK FLIPS TOWN WE ARE NOT LYNCHING AGAIN
If he flips scum then we can consider it, but don't have to.
This was the plan from the beginning that you all agreed to... WTH...
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Vote Count 2.8:
ashersky (1): Archetype,
Jimmmmmm (3): Twistedarcher, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Witherweaver (2): AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): xeiron
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver, yuma
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT. THAT'S IN TWO AND A HALF HOURS! Jorbles' plans changed and should be in and out until deadline. Mail-mi should be here for deadline.
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I mean I specifically stated that we were only going to be lynching from Arch, ADK and WW and still 5 people!!! are voting elsewhere.
Scum is not winning this game... town is losing it.
ADK sorry if you are town, but Dayvig: ADK. We can't wait for a claim if we want to react properly
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THREAD LOCKED!
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Yuma looked around disparagingly at the group around him. "You're not doing anything! Help me chose some one, please!"
No one paid him any heed. mail-mi was busy making sure the Oath Rod was ready for the night, and the others were taking naps in their tents, practicing with their swords, or picking dandelions.
"Fine," yuma said. "I guess I'll have to take matters into my own hands." He walked over to the sword practicing area, where some turned around noticed him. "A Drowned Kernel!" he shouted. "Why haven't you been doing anything?!"
A Drowned Kernel said nothing.
Sighing with exasperation, yuma pulled out one of his spears and, frustrated, stabbed it into A Drowned Kernel's back. A Drowned Kernel turned around, more angry than in pain. "How dare you kill the Dragon Reborn! How... dare..." He fell over and landed on his own sword, finishing the kill.
A Drowned Kernel has been day-vigged. He was Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, a Tainted Cop.
Thread Unlocked.
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blast...
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vote: no-lynch
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vote: no lynch
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Vote Count 2.9:
ashersky (1): Archetype,
Jimmmmmm (2): ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Witherweaver (2): AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm
A Drowned Kernel (1): xeiron
No Lynch (2): yuma, Twistedarcher
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT. THAT'S IN TWO HOURS AND TEN MINUTES! Jorbles' plans changed and should be in and out until deadline. Mail-mi should be here for deadline.
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God damnit. Seriously though, we can only blame ADK for zero input.
vote: no-lynch
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Well I have no idea what is going on in this game.
and honestly I have kinda lost interest at this point...
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Sorry Yuma. I know my effort has been pathetic (among a lot of us). I will try and kick it up a gear d3 hopefully the game will become more fun for you.
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Ugh.
Vote: No Lynch
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I am going to rant a bit...
This is why I didn't want to get dictated on when I was going to vig. Ultimately I caved and I take the blame for that, but once I said I was going to use a plan the game stagnated horribly... it was already pretty dead at that point, but it became even worse. There was so little motivation for anyone to do anything because everyone knew that the decision was ultimately mine. I tried to make it a town consensus but no one seemed to be interested in doing that even after I tried to narrow down the list for people to focus on.
Ultimately that was why I didn't want to vig WW. He actually looked at what I was saying and added comments and came to a somewhat formed conclusion... a few others did so as well, but mostly we got very, very little.
I take the blame for caving to the pressure of forming a plan even though I anticipated drawbacks from it. But I thought that the drawbacks of people constantly talking about how I should form a plan instead of scumhunting where worse... I was obviously wrong.
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I guess someone can hammer us to no-lynch here unless people feel like they have something compelling to say....
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Vote: No Lynch
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sorry everyone. hope we do better later
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Thread locked.
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After yuma killed A Drowned Kernel, mail-mi ran over, crouched down, and examined the body. "He is, indeed, the Dragon Reborn."
Everyone clustered around the body. "So," AndrewisFTTW said. "What should we do now?"
yuma looked at the setting sun. "Don't want another death of a Light-aligned player. I say we just go to bed, see what's happening in the morning.
Everybody shrugged, nodded, and dispersed to their tents to wait out the dawn.
Vote Count 2.FINAL:
Jimmmmm (2): ashersky, XerxesPraelor
A Drowned Kernel (1): xeiron
No Lynch (2): yuma, Twistedarcher, AndrewisFTTW, Archetype, Jimmmmm
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver
With 9 alive it tooks 5 to lynch.
Night 2 ends at 9:30 pm FT on April 17. Please have all night actions in by about a half hour before deadline.
THREAD STILL LOCKED.
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Sorry everyone, my computer is having problems. This is from tablet. If I can't fix it by later tonight, I'll open the thread from here. However, night action deadline is passed and no changes will be accepted.
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Flavor later.
Witherweaver has been killed! He was Rahvin, the Diplomat, a Forsaken-aligned Redirector!
Xeiron stumbles of of his tent, looking very pale and sickly. "My dagger," he mumbles. "Where is my dagger?"
Vote Count 3.0
Not Voting ( 8 ): yuma, Twistedarcher, xeiron, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, ashersky, XerxesPraelor, Archetype
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
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Thread Unlocked!
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Huzzah!!!
My other shot worked!!! I feel so justified once again.
We have some good stuff to analyze now that we know people were given a choice between a known town and a known mafia...
Feeling much better about this game now! But I was really worried I would hit town again...
xeiron you ok man?
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So just in cursory reading Andrew, Jimmmm and Archetype all look townier.
xeiron scummier. I am sure I'll have more thoughts and look more about what WW said himself.... (that should be very enlightening)
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Yuma, you fired your second shot?
This was my confusion. My result on you was a that you had a couple of maiden spears. So basically, you were either a 2 shot vig or lying scum. (I assumed 2 shot day-vig if town, not split like you apparently are). If you weren't going to fire one shot D2, it made no sense for you to hold onto TWO shots going into D3 (in my mind). So I was gonna be super suspicious if you didn't fire D2.
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No mafia kill last night. I am interested in hearing what Andrew did last night, that could be a great explanation for the missing kill.
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Oh, also, if someone else who knows flavor could confirm Yuma's towniness based on flavor, that would be great. Andrew and Xeiron, you guys know the flavor, right? Can you confirm what Witherweaver said about Yuma? (since I can't trust what he said anymore).
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Still, that's an excellent excellent excellent night.
Any chance fakeclaim is a good thing? Yuma's claimed, Andrew's claimed, Xerxes has claimed, I've basically claimed. That's half the game. The unclaimed are in Xeiron/Ashersky/Arch/Jimmmm where I think there is likely scum.
I disagree with you Yuma, I think Xeiron is likely town.
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massclaim not fakeclaim
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SoRry but I have to say it....
CALLED IT!
Since WW was the resident WOT expert, I guess I'm taking over. Xeiron is either Padan Fain (mafia, possibly SK) or Mat (town). Mat lost possession of the dagger only for a short time while Padan Fain hunted the dagger much like Gollum in LOTR. But I don't know if any of this is relevant in this case.
Can we lynch ash now?
vote: ashersky
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Also sorry that typing on my phone is ridiculous.
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SoRry but I have to say it....
CALLED IT!
Since WW was the resident WOT expert, I guess I'm taking over. Xeiron is either Padan Fain (mafia, possibly SK) or Mat (town). Mat lost possession of the dagger only for a short time while Padan Fain hunted the dagger much like Gollum in LOTR. But I don't know if any of this is relevant in this case.
Can we lynch ash now?
vote: ashersky
Tunnel much?
You need to claim what you did last night, right now. May have caught you, scum.
Also, if Xeiron stumbled out of a dead man's tent, pretty clear he killed wither, right?
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Andrew, any thoughts on claiming from last night? If you doctored someone they are likely town. If you jailkept someone, uncertain, but since you have already claimed might as well?
Also would like to have your N1 result at some point, too.
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I doctored yuma last night so I guess that might explain the lack of a night kill? I'm gonna pull a Robz and say that makes me an IC, right? Or is it possible that WW was supposed to carry out the night kill but couldn't before getting shot and the SK targeted yuma? Does it work that way?
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Ash I think the modifier is unclear. Xeiron stumbled out of Xeiron's tent, not WW's tent, is my reading of it.
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I doctored yuma last night so I guess that might explain the lack of a night kill? I'm gonna pull a Robz and say that makes me an IC, right? Or is it possible that WW was supposed to carry out the night kill but couldn't before getting shot and the SK targeted yuma? Does it work that way?
No, if WW was doing the kill, it still would have gone through.
Mafia kill was definitely blocked in some way.
Anyone get a letter from Xerxes last night?
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I doctored yuma last night so I guess that might explain the lack of a night kill? I'm gonna pull a Robz and say that makes me an IC, right? Or is it possible that WW was supposed to carry out the night kill but couldn't before getting shot and the SK targeted yuma? Does it work that way?
I was roleblocked last night, most likely by Andrew. This is clearly a lie. His fake claim covers Roleblocker quite well.
vote: andrew and back to vacation.
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I doctored yuma last night so I guess that might explain the lack of a night kill? I'm gonna pull a Robz and say that makes me an IC, right? Or is it possible that WW was supposed to carry out the night kill but couldn't before getting shot and the SK targeted yuma? Does it work that way?
No, if WW was doing the kill, it still would have gone through.
Mafia kill was definitely blocked in some way.
Anyone get a letter from Xerxes last night?
Must be some reason Xeiron is bolded and named in the flavor post, when nothing else is.
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Wait so either Andrew or Ash must be scum?
I don't know what sense to make of this without a claim from Ash. If he's 100% certain he was roleblocked, that doesn't mean Andrew was the roleblocker though, so no they could still both be town.
Are you 100% certain you were roleblocked, Ash? Like nothing else could have happened?
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2 kills N1, only 1 N2. Yuma claims the kill? So 2 kills missing? Or did Yuma kill N1 as well?
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I doctored yuma last night so I guess that might explain the lack of a night kill? I'm gonna pull a Robz and say that makes me an IC, right? Or is it possible that WW was supposed to carry out the night kill but couldn't before getting shot and the SK targeted yuma? Does it work that way?
No, if WW was doing the kill, it still would have gone through.
Mafia kill was definitely blocked in some way.
Anyone get a letter from Xerxes last night?
Must be some reason Xeiron is bolded and named in the flavor post, when nothing else is.
Yes I think it's relevant flavor wise although I don't know if it's necessarily linked to WW, is what I'm saying.
Absolutely there's a reason he's there though.
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Wait so either Andrew or Ash must be scum?
I don't know what sense to make of this without a claim from Ash. If he's 100% certain he was roleblocked, that doesn't mean Andrew was the roleblocker though, so no they could still both be town.
Are you 100% certain you were roleblocked, Ash? Like nothing else could have happened?
No result today, result yesterday. Blocked...jailed...nothing else I can think of.
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Ok, my target could have commuted...but we had one of those. Hid? Technically possible.
RB makes the most sense, given my stance yesterday.
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What makes the most sense is ash is lying scum.
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OK, I am trying to wrap my head about what that means, but I am struggling to right now. I think a massclaim may help, everyone should try to weigh in on how they feel about it (doesn't mean start claiming willy-nilly though).
I am off to bed for now, though
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What makes the most sense is ash is lying scum.
In what world does "ash is lying scum" make any sense here? What am I gaining?
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You guys kinda sound like town-town, though.
I think Xeiron and Xerxes are town too, so I really want to lynch Jimmmm or Arch right now.
I'll go back to Vote: Jimmmmm to start with.
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Yeah I'm passing out too. I could be wrong about ash but there's definitely scum+SK in XP, Xeiron, Jimm, Arch, and ash. Like I said, since flavor seems to be relevant Xeiron could be town or what is probably the SK character. So let's lynch from:
XP, Jimm, Arch, ash
If we're assuming TA and yuma (and me) are town, the remaining scum are guarenteed to be a among those 4 and possibly the SK too.
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A couple more thoughts before I go to sleep:
If I fakeclaimed split jailkeeper, I wouldn't be able to roleblock ash unless I was some other sort of roleblocker.
There was no SK kill if yuma used his second shot to kill WW. So that means somebody roleblocked the SK or doctored somebody else. But I'm inclined to think Xeiron is the SK due to him being mentioned as losing his dagger (meaning his ability to kill maybe?). This would mean he has to be Padan Fain (or maybe Mordeth or Padan Fain/Mordeth) and somebody else is most definitely Mat, as he is one of the main characters.
Ok. Goodnight.
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I sent my message to xeiron, btw.
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Massclaim is good. I'll claim last, because I already claimed partly, okay?
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You guys kinda sound like town-town, though.
I think Xeiron and Xerxes are town too, so I really want to lynch Jimmmm or Arch right now.
I'll go back to Vote: Jimmmmm to start with.
Why?
In before "go back and read". I don't really have time to, just tell me.
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Can someone remind me what a Redirector does? How is it normally used?
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
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Can someone remind me what a Redirector does? How is it normally used?
Redirector can target one player and move all actions that affect them to someone else. As a scum power, it's wicked powerful.
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Can someone remind me what a Redirector does? How is it normally used?
Redirector can target one player and move all actions that affect them to someone else. As a scum power, it's wicked powerful.
Poweful how? If you were a Redirector, what would you likely use it for?
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Can someone remind me what a Redirector does? How is it normally used?
Redirector can target one player and move all actions that affect them to someone else. As a scum power, it's wicked powerful.
Poweful how? If you were a Redirector, what would you likely use it for?
Target the IC, redirect all actions that affect them to someone else to make sure your kill works. Target a player who is likely to be investigated by a Cop, redirect them to your partner. Target your partner who is likely to be investigated by a Cop, redirect them to the IC.
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Wait, if scum had redirector, they would have been controlling someone else. If Andrew was not lying, he'd be a puppet. So, more likely...scum had redirector controlling Andrew, or Andrew is wither partner as Roleblocker? Makes sense thematically for RB and redirector to be on same team.
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Massclaim is good. I'll claim last, because I already claimed partly, okay?
you don't get to decide when/if we claim or when you claim.... I DO.....
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
So could TA or has he been cleared of being the SK somehow?
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I sent my message to xeiron, btw.
I find this suspect.... why to xeiron when you could have sent it to ta or me?
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
So could TA or has he been cleared of being the SK somehow?
TA is cleared.
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I sent my message to xeiron, btw.
I find this suspect.... why to xeiron when you could have sent it to ta or me?
Agree.
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
So could TA or has he been cleared of being the SK somehow?
What kind of SK is also a Thief?
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TA is cleared.
out with what you have to say. stop beating around the bush...
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
So could TA or has he been cleared of being the SK somehow?
What kind of SK is also a Thief?
what kind of SK is also a dayvig?
there aren't set rules for what can or can'y be a sk.... so don't pretend there are. and why is he a thief? did he claim thief? I had nothing stolen from me... I am not saying he is a sk, but he has a far better chance of being mafia than me (still not high, but higher than me) and finding mafia is our focus right now
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TA is cleared.
out with what you have to say. stop beating around the bush...
I can confirm everything TA has claimed. He's the only IC around (to me). Since Andrew blocked me last night, I've got nothing new to add.
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I sent my message to xeiron, btw.
I find this suspect.... why to xeiron when you could have sent it to ta or me?
Because I have a strong town read on him and the twist of my power makes it less desirable to target you (I think; I might try it next night) In retrospect, TA would have been a better target, but nobody's perfect.
I think his getting targeted prompted that flavor thing, whatever it was. Xeiron, are you here?
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Xeiron stumbles of of his tent, looking very pale and sickly. "My dagger," he mumbles. "Where is my dagger?"
This is not good.
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Massclaim is good. I'll claim last, because I already claimed partly, okay?
you don't get to decide when/if we claim or when you claim.... I DO.....
Yeah, I get that. I wasn't stating some immutable fact about what we'll do, just that I think mass claim is a good idea (do you think giving opinions is anti-town?) and that I think it would be a good idea for me to claim last. I'm not trying to steal your authority, so stop taking so much offense at people giving suggestions. You're one of the people with the LEAST information, you know?
I support lynching ashersky. He still is acting really scummily. Sheeping general fearmongering without a vote doesn't speak good about your alignment. vote: ash
Xeiron, if you would kindly confirm to everyone that you received a message from me, that would be nice of you.
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Huzzah!!!
My other shot worked!!! I feel so justified once again.
We have some good stuff to analyze now that we know people were given a choice between a known town and a known mafia...
Feeling much better about this game now! But I was really worried I would hit town again...
xeiron you ok man?
Well, I am evidently still alive, but no, everything is not OK.
I think a Yuma led massclaim is in order today. I will elaborate more on this matter then.
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Massclaim is good. I'll claim last, because I already claimed partly, okay?
you don't get to decide when/if we claim or when you claim.... I DO.....
Yeah, I get that. I wasn't stating some immutable fact about what we'll do, just that I think mass claim is a good idea (do you think giving opinions is anti-town?) and that I think it would be a good idea for me to claim last. I'm not trying to steal your authority, so stop taking so much offense at people giving suggestions. You're one of the people with the LEAST information, you know?
I support lynching ashersky. He still is acting really scummily. Sheeping general fearmongering without a vote doesn't speak good about your alignment. vote: ash
Xeiron, if you would kindly confirm to everyone that you received a message from me, that would be nice of you.
I confirm that I received a message from Xerxes.
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
TAs result on Yuma pretty much confirms Yumas flavorclaim, and Aviendha is not a flavor that fits for a SK.
So yuma is IC. Not sure if the same can be said for TA.
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Reads:
Andrew: scum is unlikely to have a doctor, and the claim seems to check out. Still scum points from before, though. Null
Yuma: IC
Ash: hasn't done anything towny and has done more scummy things since yesterday. We need to lynch him.
Xeiron: Very strong town read, based on what happened last night. (WIFOM is possible) Everyone else, why would the mod out scum?
TA: apparently there's a reason everyone thinks he's town. I trust the public on this sort of thing
Jimmm + Archetype: scum gut reads
The only people I'm willing to lynch are Jimmm, Archetype, and Ash, who's my preferred lynch.
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Xeiron, do you think xerxes is a town mailman or a scum mailman?
Him not sending Yuma a letter as scum makes sense if scum knew they were shooting Yuma. (Which would seem to make sense given Andrews action and the missing nk)
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I do agree with what xerxes says about xeiron, though.
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Awesome!
Massclaim? I think TA is more likely Town than Yuma, so he should lead it, but I wouldn't care if it was co-lead.
How in the world can you think that?
TA has basically claimed role or flavor cop (not the townist role in the world, but certainly townier than some here). I am a confirmed dayvig and am claiming to have shot WW last night.
I was a vig of all trades having both a dayvig and a night. I didn't shoot night1.
You could still be a SK.
I find TA townier, but like I said I really don't care since you both are practically ICs at this point.
So could TA or has he been cleared of being the SK somehow?
What kind of SK is also a Thief?
what kind of SK is also a dayvig?
there aren't set rules for what can or can'y be a sk.... so don't pretend there are. and why is he a thief? did he claim thief? I had nothing stolen from me... I am not saying he is a sk, but he has a far better chance of being mafia than me (still not high, but higher than me) and finding mafia is our focus right now
Dayvig could be a SK power easily. SK with a 1-shot Dayvig isn't unreasonable. To be a Theif, something doesn't have to be stolen from you. A Thief is a flavor cop that gets told what item someone has..which is exactly what TA found out about you.
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vote: arch
Two reasons:
1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.
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Yeah maybe a mass claim would be best. A mass flavor claim at least.
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So I am still thinking about claiming and will setup an order if it gets to that point...
Right now I am far more interested in looking back at WW his interactions and especially how people reacted to my suggestion that he be a possible dayvig target yesterday...
I think we need to get that done before we mass claim, otherwise I fear it will never get done. I am going to do it myself, but I really hope others will join me in this quest to find stuff before I post my thoughts because I would like to see what people 1. find and 2. are willing to say on their own w/o my thoughts coming first.
If we mass claim that will happen in ~5 days. It won't happen before then. We will have a fair amount of time after mass claiming to get a good lynch. So do some rereading, look for patterns and behaviors and let us know what you find. Basically I would vastly prefer to lynch someone because of interactions (or lack thereof) with WW then I would because of flavor implications.
And if we find some really good stuff we probably won't mass claim until potentially tomorrow...
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Yeah let's do that. However, I probably wont be able to do today. Maybe tomorrow though. I'm out of town for another 8 or 9 days.
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Annoyingly enough, the people who looked scummiest were TA and xeiron, who are both very strong town reads. Jimmm looks the foamiest of ash, archetype, and him.
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*towniest
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Xeiron, do you think xerxes is a town mailman or a scum mailman?
Him not sending Yuma a letter as scum makes sense if scum knew they were shooting Yuma. (Which would seem to make sense given Andrews action and the missing nk)
I am leaning town on xerxes, but it is a weak read.
I agree that it is a bit odd of him to choose me. I think I would have chosen to send mail to Andrew. We need someone to target him if we want a doctor.
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Oops, I forgot something. Only a normal town read on xeiron, now.
How exactly does Andrew's power work? I don't get it.
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Xeiron, do you think xerxes is a town mailman or a scum mailman?
Him not sending Yuma a letter as scum makes sense if scum knew they were shooting Yuma. (Which would seem to make sense given Andrews action and the missing nk)
I am leaning town on xerxes, but it is a weak read.
I agree that it is a bit odd of him to choose me. I think I would have chosen to send mail to Andrew. We need someone to target him if we want a doctor.
I don't know what you mean by this.
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Xeiron, do you think xerxes is a town mailman or a scum mailman?
Him not sending Yuma a letter as scum makes sense if scum knew they were shooting Yuma. (Which would seem to make sense given Andrews action and the missing nk)
I am leaning town on xerxes, but it is a weak read.
I agree that it is a bit odd of him to choose me. I think I would have chosen to send mail to Andrew. We need someone to target him if we want a doctor.
I don't know what you mean by this.
In his claim, he was both RB and doc only if targeted that night.
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Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.
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Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.
I thought it was that he got to choose one, but if he was targeted he then became both--thus a JK....
Obviously we should have Andrew clarify himself.
But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.
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Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.
In Dominion terms:
"Choose one: Protect your target from one nightkill or your target cannot take any actions tonight. If another player targets you while you play this card, do both options."
It's all fake anyway.
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But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.
If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?
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But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.
If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?
I mean, anyone who's scum could also be a scum roleblocker.
If anyone says they targeted Andrew last night, that means that we should lynch him, right? Since then Yuma's kill wouldn't have gone through?
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It's also possible that there's a SK who also targeted WW, and Yuma's shot WAS blocked.
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But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.
If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?
I mean, anyone who's scum could also be a scum roleblocker.
If anyone says they targeted Andrew last night, that means that we should lynch him, right? Since then Yuma's kill wouldn't have gone through?
That is correct. If Andrew is not lying about his role, and not lying about targeting yuma, then if anyone targeted him, yuma's kill should NOT have worked.
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WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.
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WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.
In his favor for what? To be scum bussed? Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.
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You think it's more likely that scum!WW busses teammate Andrew D1 than getting on Sudgy D1? Cause I would really disagree.
Andrew was not looking "pretty caught" D1. Sudgy was always an alternative. I think scum wants to press that alternative D1, yes it sucks getting caught pushing an altnerative to a teammate, but you know what sucks more? Getting a partner lynched D1. I think it's definitely a significant point in favor of Andrew being town.
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WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.
In his favor for what? To be scum bussed? Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.
This is using the assumption that Andrew is scum to prove that Andrew is scum, by the way, which is totally invalid...
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It's all fake anyway.
Hey!
You want to help, go back and analyze WW and see what you can find, until then I am trusting Andrew on this. No one has claimed to have targeted Andrew to make what he is saying a lie. No one. I am trusting it for now.
As for who roleblocked you?? I don't know?? Maybe the SCUM ROLEBLOCKER!!??!!
His role, if it is true (which I think it is) probably saved me from being killed, is a great role for town and all you want to do is blindly lynch him. Yeah... Not happening!
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WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.
In his favor for what? To be scum bussed? Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.
This is using the assumption that Andrew is scum to prove that Andrew is scum, by the way, which is totally invalid...
I am glad I am not alone in trying to argue against ashersky's crazy reasoning here. Now we just need to figure out if he is scum being crazy or town being crazy... Not an easy task.
Another point in Andrew's favor (pro-tip: I went back and reread) he was voting WW BEFORE I said that the lynch candidates were going to be WW, ADK and Archetype. And then after I said it he did not deviate from it at all.
Basically ash is suggesting that:
1. andrew fake claimed something that has not been proven to be fake
2. has helped town immensely
3. andrew and WW bussed the hell out of each other day1 and day2 in games that would pretty much be their first as scum individually (Andrew was scum in that blitz games, but the blitz experience is so different from real games) after Andrew had seen what scum going down day1 did to my scum team in Adventure Time.
No Way! I am not buying it w/o definitive proof, which is amazingly lacking from anything ashersky has said recently or all game.
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also using ash's logic that there can only be one RB type role in the game I would be suspect of him dor just that. ashersky obviously has some sort of investigative role capable of "clearing TA" but we already had a cop flip in ADK.
So I don't know why ash feels that there can only be one type of role. If this holds true (which I suspect it won't) ash is scum.
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also using ash's logic that there can only be one RB type role in the game I would be suspect of him dor just that. ashersky obviously has some sort of investigative role capable of "clearing TA" but we already had a cop flip in ADK.
So I don't know why ash feels that there can only be one type of role. If this holds true (which I suspect it won't) ash is scum.
Then shoot me, SK. I'm done with this shit.
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Fuck, sorry. It just really frustrates me when it's Yuma not understanding. We've played/modded like 100 games together man. You know me.
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I don't understand how I would be lying if someone targeted me. If I was targeted, then I doctored and roleblocked yuma. Why couldn't WW's death be from the SK?
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Fuck, sorry. It just really frustrates me when it's Yuma not understanding. We've played/modded like 100 games together man. You know me.
I need you to full claim then. Cause you have me completely and totally lost.
I am not telling you to full claim, I am just saying that given the information that you have presented I do not see how you are connecting the dots. I understand you are on vacation and don't expect you to do a huge big post.
All I am saying is that unless there is something you aren't telling us then the logic you are using to find Andrew scummy (and I guess I should say part of the logic, cause your case isn't fully predicated on this individual unit) could also be used to make you look scummy. And I say neither should be...
Andrew to me is a strong, strong town read. He has been basically all game long. Everything he has done and everything that has happened continues to back that up. But you seem to be implying the opposite over and over again and I don't see how unless there is something you aren't telling us...
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I'm with Yuma here. I lean town on ash though. It reminds me of him coming after me in clue.
Andrew it's possible certainly.
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vote: arch
Two reasons:
1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.
I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.
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vote: arch
Two reasons:
1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.
I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.
I think what he is trying to say--and what I was getting at--is that you have said TA is townier than me. We have both done townier things--confirming a townie and shooting at a mafia. Your rebuttle is that I could be a SK, but you haven't addressed that TA could be mafia. He could be... and you aren't acknowledging that.
I mean look at what he ultimately did. He performed a rolecop investigation on me and confirmed that I was a dayvig. But everyone already knew I was a dayvig or at least very strongly suspected that I was. He didn't go out on a limb to give me towncred. I already had towncred! What he added was like 5% of the credit I had. Very low risk way of making a scummy role potentially look like a townie one.
Now... do I think TA is scum? No. Not at the moment. Part of that is his play, part of that is whatever it is that ash has not yet divulged about him.
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Still, that's an excellent excellent excellent night.
Any chance fakeclaim is a good thing? Yuma's claimed, Andrew's claimed, Xerxes has claimed, I've basically claimed. That's half the game. The unclaimed are in Xeiron/Ashersky/Arch/Jimmmm where I think there is likely scum.
I disagree with you Yuma, I think Xeiron is likely town.
so I don't know if you ever fully explained this line of thought about xeiron
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Well, from Sudgy's flavor/role getting disclosed, and knowing my own, I've learned that they are highly correlated. So everyone's role makes sense in the context of their flavor. With these other two (Loial and Min), it makes perfect sense. So I think everyone's is.
Interesting tidbit here... it makes me think that mafia have fake claims of some sort (I mean beyond what it says in the setup about a fake flavor name)... unless WW was planning on claiming redirector as his role down the line (not unheard of for a town redirector eh ash? but not the most common either)
Basically WW is saying that whatever he was planning to claim down the line as his role needed to make really good sense thematically after he said this... given that so many of us don't know the flavor it makes me wonder if fake role claims were provided as well?? Or WW was very confident in his ability to come up with a role that fit his flavor
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rereading and i am finding some really good stuff and i already have some pretty good leads, but i'll wait to share them... just posting to say the reread isn't that bad and there is stuff worth finding. I want to see who finds what and who is willing to show it to the rest of us...
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vote: arch
Two reasons:
1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.
I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.
I think what he is trying to say--and what I was getting at--is that you have said TA is townier than me. We have both done townier things--confirming a townie and shooting at a mafia. Your rebuttle is that I could be a SK, but you haven't addressed that TA could be mafia. He could be... and you aren't acknowledging that.
I mean look at what he ultimately did. He performed a rolecop investigation on me and confirmed that I was a dayvig. But everyone already knew I was a dayvig or at least very strongly suspected that I was. He didn't go out on a limb to give me towncred. I already had towncred! What he added was like 5% of the credit I had. Very low risk way of making a scummy role potentially look like a townie one.
Now... do I think TA is scum? No. Not at the moment. Part of that is his play, part of that is whatever it is that ash has not yet divulged about him.
Yeah but that involves scum!TA being a Thief and targeting you N1 for whatever reason. If he's scum, he knows that you aren't lying, so why investigate you? Then again, your role ended up being more than just a DayVig so scum!TA could've gained some knowledge. So maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I find it pretty unlikely that he's scum.
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I don't understand how I would be lying if someone targeted me. If I was targeted, then I doctored and roleblocked yuma. Why couldn't WW's death be from the SK?
I think this is the best explanation for the missing kills to now.
Mafia kills yuma, who is doctored.
SK kills witherweawer.
Yuma also kills witherweaver or is blocked.
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Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.
In Dominion terms:
"Choose one: Protect your target from one nightkill or your target cannot take any actions tonight. If another player targets you while you play this card, do both options."
It's all fake anyway.
I thought Andrew got neither power unless targeted, but I might have gotten that wrong.
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I could possibly explain why Yuma didn't die.
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Again if we are going to mass claim we will get to it in a few days, lets not get distracted from the main goal of these few days: rereading and finding the interactions WW had with other players. We will have plenty of time to claim, etc when we feel the need to get to that point. I fear that if we just start talking claiming we will never get to the WW stuff and not fully utilize it.
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Ok I had some time to reread WW and here's what I found. I'm not adding quotes and such because I'm ryping on a phone and that's just too much work right now.
The first I noticed was WW subtly casting suspicion on ash all game, although his later posts mention that he finds ash less scummy and he doesn't think be should be lynched while on vacation. Weak.
He tunnels Jimmy pretty hard for a while and makes long posts with quotes and links in an attempt (I think) to start a wagon. So town read on Jimm for that and for voting WW after I did. Xeiron responds to my voting WW by saying he has a town read on WW for the same reasons I had a scumead on him. Not sure what to make of that. As far as partners go, I'm gonna say ash, Arch, and XP are the most likely. I'm sure Yuma's reread was much more productive than mine.
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Ok, re-reading WW as well. Here's my main takeaway from D1 so far (I got to post #460): Ash and Andrew are both town. You're both town! You're both town! But definitely Andrew. WW pushes Andrew subtly without voting him at first, and then votes him and pushes him hard. He makes no attempt to look elsewhere when Andrew is the only wagon. Even when not voting Andrew, he's pushing the case subtly.
He also says multiple times that he has an instinct that there's scum in Andrew-Ash, although he's not sure who.
This just reinforces what I thought, that Ash/Andrew are both town. I really believe you both are town, and we should focus elsewhere!
Here's my notes so far copy + pasted from notepad:
WW reread:
At first - against massclaim
Post #309 - Says that he feels like someone involved in the Ash-Andrew argument is scum, but he's not sure yet.
#327 - Attack on Andrew despite the fact that Andrew is at L-1 and he's not voting him. This really makes me think that Andrew is town, and WW wants the lynch to go through but he doesn't want to get caught on it.
#331 - More of the same. Not voting Andrew at all, but basically agreeing with the case.
#342 - Leans scum on Andrew, doesn't want to lynch him though. Could be avoiding a town wagon, could be reluctance to bus a partner until he has to, could see it going either way.
(unrelated, but interesting -- Xeiron has similar views to WW in #346 -- Andrew/ADK are scummy, but he's not ready to vote for a lynch yet)
#380 WW puts Andrew to L-1 for same reasons as before
#440, keeps pushing Andrew hard
#451 - Arch has WW as null
#459 - "First instinct was that one of Ash/Andrew is town
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Vote Count 3.1
ashersky (1): AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (1): ashersky
Archetype (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (5): yuma, Jimmmmm, xeiron, XerxesPraelor, Archetype
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
Xeiron coughs into his hand and slumps over onto the ground.
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Through the end of D1...
#472 - Yuma announces he wants to shoot WW. Let's see the responses!
#474 - Ash likes it. Could be Ash not wanting to protest against his partner being shot, or Ash actually having a scum read on WW (I haven't seen that up to this point). Null on this post.
#480 Arch says WW should claim
#490 - Andrew says he thinks Ash is town (unrelated, but this changed)
#493 - WW says it's possible both Ash and Andrew are scum.
#548 - WW doesn't find Sudgy wagon, finds Andrew and Ash scummy. Andrew and Ash are still both town!
Keeps pushing Andrew when Sudgy is at L-1
#610 WW votes Ash
I focus people (Yuma) back on Sudgy instead of Witherweaver after he moves off...no one made any attempt to move to WW
#724 WW's choices are Ash/Andrew
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Biggest D1 takeaway -- WW continually lumps Ash/Andrew together, saying he is sure there's scum there, and then is okay voting either. Early on, he pushes Andrew, first subtly without voting, then starts pushing harder once people have moved away a bit. Later on, he shows willingness to jump onto Ash. His entire D1 is dominated by finding Ash/Andrew scummy.
Unfortunately, there's not many interactions on the other side. Only person focused on WW d1 is Yuma, and we already know Yuma's alignment. There weren't many reactions to Yuma saying he wanted to shoot WW -- more generalized reactions than specific to WW's play in this game. Hopefully, D2 will be better. My only takeaways from D1 are that Andrew/Ash are town, and no leads as to who WW's partners could be (but knowing Ash/Andrew are likely town is pretty significant in my book).
Easter egg hunt time, I'll get to D2 later this afternoon hopefully.
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Alright. I'm listening to TA.
unvote
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Also, total lack of interaction between WW and Arch.
vote: Archetype
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Flying home today, back fully tomorrowish. Will do the WW-focused reread then.
unvote
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Thanks Andrew and TA for getting some thought out.
So I am fully VLA for my brother's wedding starting Friday-Sunday, which I think is pretty much the deadline? Yeah, the deadline is Sunday April 27 in the evening. So I will be back for the deadline, but gone the three days prior to it.
So this is how I would like the day to go down:
Now until Tuesday the 22nd: rereads on WW. Votes are still good as is general discussion/suspicion/defenses/etc. But hold off claiming and claiming discussion. Obviously I am not going to set a deadline on rereads (they will be accepted after this period, but will be vastly more useful the earlier they are done).
Tuesday night I will present my thoughts on the WW and what I have noticed in my rereads (keep in mind that starting tomorrow I am also back to work, so less available in general)
Wednesday 23rd through Friday the 25th: claiming and discussion about claiming, (if deemed it is needed). I am still not sure that it is needed. There are certainly something we need to discuss, but I'll get to that later.
Friday the 25th to Sunday the 27th: I am gone. Keep talking here unless we already hit a lynch (which is possible and maybe preferable, but I am not going to mandate it just to accommodate my schedule) and you certainly don't need to wait for me to lynch. I would like to be around and give my opinion to help get the right lynch through, but that isn't absolutely necessary. I'll be back in the mid-afternoon and hopefully through deadline, more or less, if needed
Anyways, sorry that I won't be around to better lead those last three days, but hopefully that will force people to take the initiative themselves and help us get a better read on them...
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Xeiron do you know what's going on?
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Xeiron coughs into his hand and slumps over onto the ground. [/b][/color]
wait... I didn't see this the first time through... making sure that others saw it as well...
At this point anyone who knows what is going on here should say something...
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Like don't get distracted from the WW stuff, but it looks like xeiron is slowly dying on us here? So if we need to get moving to do something about that or whatever we absolutely should and need that information sooner rather than later... unless xeiron is mafia then let him rot!!!
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Well I guess that has something to do with not having the dagger. As far as I know (and I'm only up to book 6 but the dagger hasn't been mentioned in a couple books), the only two people to posess the dagger are Mat (good, healed from the dagger's effects) and Padan Fain (bad, currently has the dagger) although I don't think mail-mi would out mafia/SK just like that. I have no idea.
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OR! Maybe Xeiron was the SK and he converted to something else? That would explain the one night kill.
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Xeiron do you know what's going on?
I do.
We have time to finish the day according to Yumas plan.
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Okay, I'm back from vacation. Will re-read soon.
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Finally got time to do a ww re-read myself.
All the votes of Witherweaver:
Going back and reading the posts where this started, Andrew seems overly defensive from the beginning. If he had nothing to hide and the accusation had no credibility, then I don't think he'd need to respond with such incredulousness.
Vote: AndrewisFTTW
Well, I don't really have a scum read on Sudgy. I see what people are saying, but I think it's more likely a case of someone not playing very carefully. If he was scum he'd probably be much more conscious about what he's posting. Or else he's just going for crazy randomness.
My opinion on Andrewis hasn't changed. I don't think there's any more to be said about it, though. It would just be rehashing what has been said before, and I can't see me suddenly seeing it in a new light. I would really like to know his alignment, though.
I think out of all the options other than Andrewis, Ash comes off as the most scummy. It makes more sense to me for super aggression to come from scum rather than town. To me it would get a mislynch more likely as some of the town can get convinced by the argument, scum can hop on the wagon without much suspicion, and people that are on the fence can look to flaws in the other person's defense. In fact, that could have indeed been what happened here. If Andrewis was town, he got put in an uncomfortable spot pretty quickly, and most of the people that voted against him (including me) did so because of issues with how he defended himself, not because of the original accusation. And then when the mislynch happens, you have the wine-in-front-of-me defense "Why would I have been so aggressive about it if I was scum? Scum is more likely to come in later and dodge suspicion." And people would probably buy that, because it would take a lot of guts.
Well, I'm back to being uncertain about the Andrewis/Ash thing. I have trouble reconciling scum reads on both of them. Maybe it's an act to confuse us, but Ash was pushing it pretty hard, and that seems like a really risky idea. Though maybe the goal could have been to get town on the wagon and then cast them as scum that were trying to sneak on the mislynch without raising much attention.
I suppose there is a chance they're both scum, but not on the same team. One could be a third party (serial killer or whatever).
So my choices are Andrewis or Ash. I guess I'd be okay with either.. I'm going to Vote: Ashersky.
Then you should vote Andrew..he is more viable than Ash I believe. I don't see Ash getting to 7 votes, he is farther away and several people have said they wouldn't vote him. (I won't vote him personally)
Okay, I'm back to Vote: AndrewisFTTW.
Three votes on two persons are all. Townpoints to both Andrew and Ash for this. I do not think Witherweaver was bussing. It is quite intimidating to vote for your teammates. Especially for newbe scum.
More townpoints to Andrew than Ash, though. Ash is known for being bold as scum, and I could see him instruct his scumparners to vote for him, as some part of a plan.
Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:
Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?
Good. That would be an Aeil, and they were swell. For the most part. Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.
But those questions give stuff away! I don't think we should be asking them.
Well I don't think there's harm in giving this away, since he's roleclaimed, but Yuma is a possessor of a maiden spear. So that means he's probably town?
Are you sure it's "possessor of a maiden spear" and not "Is a Maiden of the Spear"?
This conversation strikes me as something that would be discussed in the scum QT, not in-thread if TA was scum.
Townpoints to TA.
Witherweaver several times lumps Jimm, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, Xerxes, and me together. I think this is the best place to look in order to find scum.
I agree with a townread on Andrew. Witherweaver is acting towny as well, he has become a clear townread to me troughout D2.
Okay, well, I can come up with a town reason, but I would have liked to hear Andrewis say it. I find that line of discussion really odd, but I don't have any scum reads on anything else he's said today.
Ash I still feel scummy about. I don't know why he went gunning after Andrewis today. It seemed to start out "okay I guess he's town" then moves to "nevermind you're a liar".
Yuma.. is an enigma. But probably a town enigma. Or he's an armed lunatic that is going to gun us all down.
TwistedArcher .. Well, with a mislynch yesterday and two town PR's gone during the night, he was pretty much the first person to come out trying to find targets on Day 2. He seemed to be looking at everything and considering options. Seems more like a town thing than a scum thing to me. I think scum would want to stay quieter.
The rest of the people.. I don't really have much on. I think they've all been very quiet.
Jimm, Xeiron, Archetype, A Drowned Kernel (warned he would be gone), Xerxes. In general I don't know what to think about this group as they all seem involved only very subtly.
I guess I have some thoughts on Xerxes. He flavor claimed out of the blue on day 1, and then role claimed unprompted on day 2. And his target died, so the claim (which I assume would normally be easy to confirm) can't be confirmed. Okay that's suspicious. On the other hand, flavor and role match up pretty well. Not what I would have guessed, but it makes sense. Comes out voting Ash and I don't really follow his explanation.
Xeiron. There was a lot of talk about him being super scummy towards the end of Day 1. I think from Andrew. I didn't really follow it, so I'll have to go back.
Archetype.. very quiet. Comes out with a vote on Ash without much of a reason, except saying he wanted to do it yesterday. I'm not sure why he wanted to do it yesterday. And a very confusing argument about Andrew being alive incriminating Ash. I don't think it makes sense. If anything is to be gained from the Andrew is alive, ADK's point seemed more reasonable. So suspicious.
Jimm.. everyone thinks he's scummy. I don't recall much explanation though. I'll have to look back here too.
A Drowned Kernel. Hasn't said a lot, but he said he'd be absent.
So, great, I'm back to being confused. The person here I have a scum feeling on is Ash, and the two people that I find most suspicious otherwise are voting against Ash. I think we need to hear more thoughts from the quiet crowd.
What I find interesting is that WW seems to be up to date on Archetype and Xerxes, while he mentiones a need to reread Jimm and me. Could it be that he is automaticly paying attention to them because they are his scumpartners?
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My conclution after the reread:
Not mafia: Yuma, Twistedarcher, Andrews, Xeiron
probably not mafia: Ashersky
Null: Jimm
slight scum: Xerxes
good mafia candidate: Archetype.
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mail-mi, I modified the thread subject to the correct day, because man that bugs me.
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Finished D1 reread of WW. Noticed most of the stuff xeiron mentions above. My notes:
Mordeth interaction with Faust - ends up town read
Andrew calls out WW for his town read
Doesn't know about the scumslip
Is wishy washy for a long time
Finally joins the Andrew wagon when it's strong
Starts making case on Andrew based on his reaction, not the slip
Later says "one of the two is scum" in me and andrew
votes me late in the day
returns to voting andrew late when it was clear he wasn't going to be lynched
I think this is a bussing narrative, with ww trying to slow things down on Andrew right after the scumslip, jumping on the wagon when it looked inevitable, deflecting to me when yuma was trying to reel it in, then staying off the mislynch by voting his partner when it was safe.
So I think there's a D1 narrative where Andrew is WW's partner. It actually starts way back with the really odd suspicion Andrew tries to throw at WW for his faust townread.
The "one of these two is scum!" thing is a scum thing to do, too, for cred. If we lynch his partner, he looks good, if we mislynch, he looks good.
That's what I got from D1. Headed to D2.
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Not as much from D2 WW.
Some talk of ADK/Arch. More back and forth with Andrew. Some talk with Xeiron. A bit about yuma oddly enough.
I'm not getting much out of D2. Nothing to reduce the D1 Andrew connection. He doesn't interact with some folks. Where is the Arch idea coming from? Just the lack of interaction?
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Ash, I disagree that ww was bussing Andrew d1. It just makes less sense than Andrew being town.
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Ash, I disagree that ww was bussing Andrew d1. It just makes less sense than Andrew being town.
So he was bussing me instead?
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Ash, I disagree that ww was bussing Andrew d1. It just makes less sense than Andrew being town.
So he was bussing me instead?
No I think you are both town.
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So I'm looking at a remaining player list of:
1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Town: ashersky, TA
VERY likely Town: yuma
Scum: Andrew
That leaves Arch, Xerxes, xeiron, Jimmmm for other possible scum, right? With two deaths on N1 and no town killers claimed, let's assume mafia + SK for sure. With 13 players, that means 2-4 mafia + 1 SK is the design space here. So we're looking for 1-3 mafia + SK.
If I'm right about Andrew, that leaves 2-3 scum out of the 4 listed. If I'm wrong, even more?
From my perspective, if people aren't convinced by me on Andrew, that we need to lynch from the quartet or Arch, Xerxes, Xeiron, and Jimmmmm.
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I'm cool with that lynch pool. I didn't make it home to reread tonight but I will hopefully before Yuma posts his stuff tomorrow. Right now jimmm/arch are my top 2 suspects.
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I'm cool with that lynch pool. I didn't make it home to reread tonight but I will hopefully before Yuma posts his stuff tomorrow. Right now jimmm/arch are my top 2 suspects.
I think Jimmmm's been sliding under the radar for quite awhile. That said, I feel like I had a townish read on him when he was posting.
I remember D1 Arch being towny, I remember nothing of Arch since then.
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Ash if you had to lynch someone right now who would it be
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Ash if you had to lynch someone right now who would it be
Andrew.
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Playerlist:
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
Took myself, yuma, Andrew, and Xerxes off.
Me: Because I'm me.
yuma: No way this dude is scum. I mean, mayyyybe, but TA's claim pretty much confirms him as Town.
Andrew: Really think he's Town. Proof for ya'll coming soon.
Xerxes: Townslips times infinity. Either sloppy scum or obvious Town.
That leaves...
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
I found this quote by Archetype. I think what he says about Xerxes is pretty interesting.
Archetype, could you please quote for us some of Xerxes' townslips?
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Vote Count 3.2
Archetype (2): Twistedarcher, AndrewisFTTW
Not Voting (6): yuma, Jimmmmm, xeiron, XerxesPraelor, Archetype, ashersky
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
Xeiron breath is short and raspy. He has sweat on his brow.
Of note:
My computer is on the fritz and not usable right now. VLA for a while.
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Ok here are my thoughts:
So I agree with TA about ash and Andrew. More so about Andrew, but I believe at this point that this whole thing has been town v town. I am less sure about ashersky for a variety of reasons, but I am pretty confident that WW is not Andrew's partner. Ash I have read your posts. I thought about them, I promise you with an open mind. But I disagree on them. When I combine that with my previous town read on Andrew and my previous experience with Andrew--and his previous experiences--I DO NOT think they can be partners.
- This is established by WW voting for andrew and then you and then andrew all through day1. I agree that the "there must be one scum in this group" can be used as scum. But I think it is more often used as newbie scum to try and get two mislynches... Miss on the first... oh well, must be the second!
- how WW had a huge back and forth with Andrew Day2. I don't think that was contrived. Well it was contrived as WW was pushing to get Andrew lynched for what I think were faulty reasons, but I don't think it was contrived between the two of them. There were too many little odd ball things going on, miscues, miscommunications. If it was fake both of them would know too easily what the other was talking about. Instead lots of clarification was needed and it was really confusing on both parties. Looks real. I almost didn't shoot WW because of this interaction.
- furthermore by how Andrew responded to WW day2, particularly before my suggestion to Dayvig him and compounded by how he responded after my suggestion.
Now as for why I believe that you aren't partners with WW:
- I already talked about WW switching back and forth from Andrew to ash. I don't think he does that to a partner. Leaves a mislynch to go to a partner and then back and then the other and then back. More likely going back and forth from one mislynch to the next...
- ash's response to me saying I wanted to dayvig WW day1. Ash could very easily realize that he would have to respond that way, but I think he would know that people would expect him to react that way. Plus it is me. I think ash would believe he could talk me out of it... and he probably could have and would have tried if WW was a partner.
- point to remember when I asked about the trio ash didn't talk about WW other than to say he was active. He said arch was towniest and "ADK is playing" so didn't really push for a shot either way... more town ash behavior I think.
TA:
I am still not fully convinced that TA is town. Ash is implying as much. And ash, do you think that your implications from yesterday might be why you were ultimately roleblocked? Especially note that in particular WW picked up on whatever hints you were dropping even if others in the game didn't. But regardless I don't want to lynch TA right now. Ash's stuff, plus how he responded to me make him less likely to be scum, even if not an IC from my point of view at the moment.
So that leaves: Jimmmmm, xerxes, xeiron and Archetype.
Jimmmm:
WW - started pretty hard on Jimmmmm day2. Like very aggressive. Second probably only to how was aggressive to Jimmmm. Kinda similar in how many miscommunications and clarifications there were...
WW made two large reads posts: I'll quote both under each individual player:
Jimm.. everyone thinks he's scummy. I don't recall much explanation though. I'll have to look back here too.
In addition he has a reread of Jimmmm where he basically says "people think Jimmmm is scummy. I don't really see it, but see why they might think that." This is how I think newer scum busses.
I already posted my reread results on Jimmm. His play reminds me of Faust (scum) in the same game, who was fairly non-present during Day 1, but came in with a pre-established reason to hammer the mislynch (in Faust's case, a VT claim; in Jimm's case, a strategy policy of preferring lynching over non-lynching).
In addition Jimmmmm was second onto the WW wagon. I believe it was after I had stated intent to shoot one of them, so he chose WW. Hmmm.... But that was immediately after I posted my intention and I don't know if he saw that post or not. Regardless if Jimmmm is scum he was bussing and kinda OMGUS bussing as well.
Xerxes:
Xerxes .. what mostly stands out is the claiming. He has a flavor claim and a role claim that fits the flavor (not what I would have guessed, but it does fit very well), but he decided to claim them without anyone asking, any suspicion on him, or anyone agreeing that claiming was good. And his role seems to be non-verifiable (today). Not sure what to take from it.. he says it helps us narrow down scum, but it doesn't really at all if it doesn't make him look any more town.
Okay so.. I would want someone from the set of {ADK, Xeiron, Xerxes, Jimmm, Archetype, Ash}. My preferences would probably be ADK or Jimm, maybe Xerxes. I'd prefer to wait on Ash unless he comes back before deadline.
I guess I have some thoughts on Xerxes. He flavor claimed out of the blue on day 1, and then role claimed unprompted on day 2. And his target died, so the claim (which I assume would normally be easy to confirm) can't be confirmed. Okay that's suspicious. On the other hand, flavor and role match up pretty well. Not what I would have guessed, but it makes sense. Comes out voting Ash and I don't really follow his explanation.
xerxes has a complete lack of presence with WW and wasn't around to give an opinion--or just didn't give--on who I should shoot...
Xeiron:
Xeiron. There was a lot of talk about him being super scummy towards the end of Day 1. I think from Andrew. I didn't really follow it, so I'll have to go back.
Xeiron... he had that weird interaction with Jimm at the beginning of the game about questioning Yuma's claim.. and then a much larger discussion today about a similar thing. Xeiron and Jimm seemed to switch sides on the issue, which I found a little odd, but, like has been said, people change their minds. I still didn't figure out why people said he was super scummy on Day 1... I don't think anyone ever justified it. His Day 2 behavior with Yuma I find more questionable, because of my first paragraph.
he expressed a solid townread on WW. Did you ever explain why you had this xeiron?
Archetype:
Archetype.. very quiet. Comes out with a vote on Ash without much of a reason, except saying he wanted to do it yesterday. I'm not sure why he wanted to do it yesterday. And a very confusing argument about Andrew being alive incriminating Ash. I don't think it makes sense. If anything is to be gained from the Andrew is alive, ADK's point seemed more reasonable. So suspicious.
Archetype.. non-present as well. When he does post he seems to post about reads, but doesn't ever say why, or when he does the explanations don't really resonate with me.
I think that if WW is partners with Archetype that he says more about him in these posts. In addition I am confused why WW is questioning his logic on Ash/Andrew, who he wanted to lynch day1 and kinda did day2. Makes me think that he is changing his view and trying to make Archetype look scummy for what he thought previously (because he somehow knows that suspecting ash/andrew is a scummy thing to do because he as scum is doing it).
This post is also interesting:
Quick post from work using buddies phone...
I hate to do this as I don't think it is optimal ic play but I feel given our status we have to... I am limiting the field of potential candidates to: ADK witherweaver and Archetype.
Please focus hunting efforts on these three! consider l1 intent to hammer from me and claim at that point if you desire.
Focus on who their partners could or could not be. I would like to shoot when I get home from work... so we have time to talk and lynch again if I hit scum.
I understand that you might have scum reads on others but please focus on these three. I have thought hard about this and hopefully am on the right track.
Well not me :) ADK and Archetype feel very similar to me. It's tough to think in terms of partners because they've barely been interacting.
ADK with Ash could make some sense. ADK and Andrewis both did the "slip", and Ash jumped on Andrewis a lot harder than ADK. There was a cover that ADK allowed for some uncertainty in his wording, but that is a little flimsy. It's possible Ash could be deflecting from suspicion on ADK by focusing heavily on Andrew.
If ADK and Archetype are both scum, then their partner probably has to be someone more present.
As he doesn't separate out ADK and archetype here... ADK is known town. IF arch is scum does he push more aggressively to get ADK lynched instead. I think probably yes. But he doesn't making arch appear more townie so WW was willing for either of them to be the dayvig target... I think...
Another post here that I want to note:
...for people I'd be willing to lynch. In order from most wanting to lynch to least:
ashersky > xeiron > A Drowned Kernel > Jimmmmm > Witherweaver >>> Twistedarcher
I think that TA is town, but a Scum thief isn't unheared of. So he's not off the table, but you'd have to twist my archer arm to get him lynched.
Did you have a reread of Xeiron and ADK that puts them in this position?
ADK is confirmed town. Why is WW concerned about Xeiron being ahead of ADK? Makes me suspicious of Xeiron.
So of the four I least want to lynch Archetype I think. Jimmm probably next. Xerxes and xeiron are my top candidates. At the least I think both should full claim at some point... NOT RIGHT NOW. Xerxes because he already has claimed quite a bit and xeiron to explain what is going on with him... I might change my mind about the main candidates after hearing from them...
I want to hear from others and then we can discuss mass claiming and I'll set up a tree to do that with...
Keep in mind I could be wrong about ashersky (and andrew as well) and TA's read is mostly predicated on ash's results...
prod Jimmmm please
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prod Jimmmm please
Prodded.
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I will say that I don't really present reasons to vote for xeiron or Xerxes... I fully acknowledge that and note that it can be frustrating... but rather I see compelling reasons to not vote the other players (now that concept didn't work out very well with ADK but in theory in generally works).
That said I will reread both players as individuals coming up and present cases more in line with what they have done in hopes of providing them something to respond to.
Also I am not sold on my conclusions. Other players should continue making posts and cases as well.
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Time to re-read the two Xs.
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Full xeiron re-read:
Pre-game:
#1 - in
Day 1:
#2 - Agrees with me saying don't like as town ever. Thinks catching scum in lies is our strongest tool in RMM.
#3 - Agrees with me saying massclaim will help scum. Says he's interested in playing a whole game without claims for once.
#4 - Votes for Jimmmmm for "implying that yuma might be someone we want to lynch" after yuma has claimed dayvig.
#5 - Responds to a WW question regarding the confirmability of day powers.
#6 - Responds to Jimmmmm, saying he is defensive post vote, and thinks it may be a sign he's on to something.
#7 - Agrees with Faust on a flavor issue (that Mordeth is a probable 3rd party). Gives a town read on Faust.
#8 - Complains to Xerxespraelor about flavor claiming, thinks it helps scum decide who to target. Specially mentions killing and roleblocking.
#9 - Responds to an Andrew question about the scumminess of being defensive and asking questions. Responds to Archetype's vote on him by saying he wasn't concluding anything but drawing attention to something (Jimmmmm).
#10 - States he's caught up and has a scum read on Andrew and ADK. Says slightly more on ADK, thinks it's possible they are partners. States readiness to vote either without further re-reads.
#11 - Responds to Andrew's question about when he defended ADK; admits he was wrong and ADK had defended Andrew.
#12 - Responds to ADK calling him out for undercontributing.
#13 - Responds to yuma's question about who to dayvig; says it should be the lynch target.
#14 - States he's against No Lynch. Votes for Andrew as he has a decent chance of flipping scum but is informative either way.
#15 - Responds to Faust's statement that the sudgy wagon seems scum-driven. Does some analysis of each vote. Basically every read is null. He then vote for Jimmmmm for being in the background, watching the Andrew stuff from a distance, and for waiting for a mislynch.
#16 - Responds to TA's request for "why" the sudgy wagon is scummy. Points out it was fast and without reasons. Not convinced sudgy is scum.
#17 - Responds to the TA/Archetype discussion on the valdiity of quick wagons near deadline, where there use mcmcsalot in the most recent blitz game as an example. Interesting here, the first line from Xeiron is "But the mcmcsalot wagon was on scum." This reads like he already knows that sudgy is town. Scum slip possibility here.
#18 - Responds to the latest vote count, pointing out that voting me is the latest fad. Says on re-read he finds me towny. Votes for Andrew to try and get that going again.
#19 - Responds to shraeye's request for elucidation on his ash re-read; says he didn't see anything out of the ordinary or not genuine.
#20 - Responds to shraeye's displeasure at that response by asking for a case on me.
#21 - Votes for Jimmmmm again.
#22 - Responds to Faust with reasons for voting Jimmmmm, which include his low profile and yuma's support of the lynch. States his willingness to return to Andrew.
#23 - Responds to Xerxespraelor's response to Faust where he argues I'm a better lynch for D1. Xeiron agrees that I do press lynches through to completion whether right or wrong, but that my reads are no worse than anyone else so that's not a good argument. States Andrew was scummy during the beginning of D1 so it's worth keeping the vote there.
#24 - Responds to ADK finding him scummy. Points out that ADK's memory is wrong and that he has been pushing specific lynches, not just "anybody."
#25 - Moves his vote back to Andrew as it is larger.
#26 - Popsquiz. Wants to lynch Andrew or Jimmmmm, would lynch Arch, WW, ADK, or Shraeye.
#27 - Points out that Andrew could be at L1, need others to move votes to useful wagons.
#28 - Announces he's not moving his vote and won't be around again before the deadline.
That's the end of Day 1, and almost half of all of Xeiron's posts. I'm not getting a strong scum vibe from this re-read. The possible scumslip in #17 sticks out to me, and he doesn't give a lot of actual reads in his posts, but all in all it wasn't a bad day 1. His response to ADK's suspicion was pretty good, and consistent. He votes or no one but Jim or Andrew on Day 1.
Day 2:
#29 - Says he is less suspicious of Andrew after the claim, still suspicious of Jimmmmm, and starting to worry about yuma.
#30 - Responds to Andrew's surprise that yuma didn't die on N1. Gives 4 reasons.
#31 - Responds to Jimmmmm's question why scum!yuma would claim dayvig. Gives 2 reasons.
#32 - Says he noticed the same two Jimmmmm posts that Andrew flagged as scummy, then votes for Jimmmmm.
#33 - Supports yuma shooting on D1.
#34 - Responds to yuma's question of how you would react to yuma's claim as scum by saying he'd do what his partners didn't do.
#35 - Responds to yuma's follow up of what his partners would do. He responds that you don't need the whole team to cast suspicion, so you take a different stance. He also comes at yuma a bit here, wondering why he claims on D1 as town.
#36 - Says he agrees with the townread on Andrew, also says WW is a clear townread throughout D2.
#37 - Says flips and flavor are closely related, thinks we should not flavorclaim.
#38 - Responds to my activity chart by saying scum is probably in the lower half, could easily scum in ADK and Jimmmmm, and null-reads on Xerxes and Arch.
#39 - Responds to yuma's reasoning for claiming, thinks it is credible. Responds to my point that day roles are so easily confirmed that it's a stupid claim by agreeing, but wondering how long we wait for confirmation before disbelieving.
#40 - Responds to yuma's angry post about how the sudgy lynch was worse than no lynch. He points out some things we learned.
#41 - Comes up with a deadline shooting plan for yuma.
#42 - Does my lynch pool exercise; doesn't really show much.
#43 - Says he wouldn't be surprised if both yuma and Andrew survive another night. Says it looks like an SK exists, so the scum factions will probably try to kill each other.
#44 - Discussion on 3rd parties without nightkills.
#45 - Thinks finding mafia is a higher priority than finding the SK.
#46 - Votes for yuma without any other text.
#47 - Explains his vote, says he sees yuma doing what he'd expect scum!yuma to do.
#48 - Explains why he thinks it is optimal to shoot on Day 2.
#49 - Agrees his read on yuma has changed since Day 1.
#50 - Points out that if yuma is scum, the only way to play it is to refuse to shoot for as long as possible.
#51 - Unvotes from yuma based on TA's result.
#52 - Is happy that yuma's good with shooting today and likes the backward vote plan.
#53 - Responds to yuma that it was Xerxes who claimed, says he's undecided about mass claiming.
#54 - Gives dayvig preferences as Jimmmmm, ADK, or Archetype, while also accepting me or Xerxes.
#55 - States he does not think WW is mafia, so he strongly prefers ADK or Archetype. He agrees with Jimmmmm that there is a strong lack of scum reads in this game.
#56 - Votes for ADK because he thinks he fits many different scum teams, listing Andrew, Jimmmmm, and Xerxes as possible partners.
#57 - Says his town read on WW is for the same reason Andrew has a scum read, which is asking questions and raising topics.
#58 - States it's getting late and he won't be around for deadline.
So, clearly the WW town reads all this day aren't looking good for him, but people have wrong reads all the time. He spends a significant chunk of the day going after yuma, only to be placated there. He changed his read on Andrew post claim.
Day 3:
#59 - Quotes the flavor about him and says it's not good.
#60 - Says he's still alive, but it's not a good situation. Thinks a yuma led massclaim is in order.
#61 - Confirms he received Xerxes's message.
#62 - Says TA's result on yuma basically confirms yuma as town, but doesn't mean TA is town.
#63 - Leaning town on Xerxes, but weakly so. Agrees it was odd to choose him for the message.
#64 - His night kill theory is that mafia tried to kill doctored yuma, SK killed WW, and yuma also killed WW or was blocked.
#65 - Misunderstanding Andrew power claim.
#66 - Responds to yuma's question that he does know what's going on, but doesn't explain.
#67 - WW re-read. Townpoints for Andrew and Ash based on WW's voting. Townpoints for TA based on flavor discussion. Points out WW is up to date on Arch and Xerxes, but needs to re-read Jimmmm and himself, thinking maybe he's paying better attention to his partners.
#68 - Conclusions after the re-read putting yuma, TA, Andrew in "not mafia", me in "probably not mafia", "null" on Jimmmmm, "slight scum" for Xerxes, and "good mafia candidate" for Arch.
#69 - Asks Arch to point out Xerxes's townslips.
And that's it.
Overall, he's not the scummiest guy out there. Seems to be trying, lacking in the crazy plan department but otherwise fairly normal. A few slip ups as far as reads and posts, but nothing definitive. Dunno.
How about Xeiron for SK?
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Agh, this might ruin my record of no mislynches!
Okay, how many mafia are left? If two, I definitely think something is wrong with yuma's list. The only scummy person left on there is Archetype to me, and then there'd have to be someone off it, which I think is ash, despite ww's switching back and forth, which gives ash towny points. Since yuma's in charge, I'll suggest archetype for the kill.
Looking at yuma's read of archetype, I think it's relatively likely for scum to lump their partner and town together, because whichever way they swing, they can go toward lynching the town first, while maintaining the wanted scumread on their partner.
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Checking in. I'll catch up when I can.
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Ash : is your reread forthcoming?
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Ash : is your reread forthcoming?
I'll do it today.
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Ash : is your reread forthcoming?
Is yours? I remember you providing a reads list, but I believe that was from "gut memory."
Xerxes seems more interested in defending himself than in finding scum.
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...
Xeiron... he had that weird interaction with Jimm at the beginning of the game about questioning Yuma's claim.. and then a much larger discussion today about a similar thing. Xeiron and Jimm seemed to switch sides on the issue, which I found a little odd, but, like has been said, people change their minds. I still didn't figure out why people said he was super scummy on Day 1... I don't think anyone ever justified it. His Day 2 behavior with Yuma I find more questionable, because of my first paragraph.
he expressed a solid townread on WW. Did you ever explain why you had this xeiron?
...
My townread on witherweawer was partly because of high activity. There was also some of the things he said that made me place him in the 'town' bucket. I hardly remember now what it was. He seemed much more scummy when I reread him after he flipp scum.
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...
So of the four I least want to lynch Archetype I think. Jimmm probably next. Xerxes and xeiron are my top candidates. At the least I think both should full claim at some point... NOT RIGHT NOW. Xerxes because he already has claimed quite a bit and xeiron to explain what is going on with him... I might change my mind about the main candidates after hearing from them...
I want to hear from others and then we can discuss mass claiming and I'll set up a tree to do that with...
Keep in mind I could be wrong about ashersky (and andrew as well) and TA's read is mostly predicated on ash's results...
prod Jimmmm please
I mostly agree with your reads here.
A bit unsure about how Archetype got placed as the towniest of the four. I have him as the scumiest.
I have not mentioned it explicity yet, but I have a strong serial killer read on TwistedArcher. A massclaim will put a lot more light on that situation. Espesially if TA is among the early claimers.
Anyway, I think we should get started with the claiming as soon as possible.
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Anyway, I think we should get started with the claiming as soon as possible.
I am not sold that mass claiming is the correct route to go down.
Two points I do want to hear are a full explanation of what is going on with xeiron and a fuller claim from ashersky.
Beyond that I am not ready to say we need to mass claim. What are the arguments for it?
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I should claim to clarify my situation.
Ash and TA should claim because I think it will tell us a lot of TAs alignment.
Xerxes should claim because what he sais about the last part of his role might be what gets him lynced or not lynced today.
Jimm and Archetype for completeness sake, because there is probably at least one scum among them.
In addition, we seems to have two missing NK.
A massclaim will help explain that and catch scum.
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I should claim to clarify my situation.
Go ahead on this part. We will consider each step along the way
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Flavor: matt cauthon.
Role: tainted semi-ascetic townie
It means I am:
- Immune against night action using the one power.
- If i loose my dagger i becomes hated the next day, and dies the next night.
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This meas that I am not a lynch candidate. I will flip town after tonight anyway.
It is also worth noting that flavor vise, mordeth would be the one character interested in stealing my dagger. It would not suprise me if that flavor is in the game, and has a role that allows him to steal stuff from people.
At last some speculation: If we have mordeth as a third party that stole my dagger, I thing it is likely that they get some sort of bonus or empowerment by doing so. Something to keep in the back of the head.
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Flavor: matt cauthon.
Role: tainted semi-ascetic townie
It means I am:
- Immune against night action using the one power.
- If i loose my dagger i becomes hated the next day, and dies the next night.
So basically you are a completely negative utility? Do you know what the one power is that you are immune to?
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ash and TA claim when you get on please.
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I'm a bard, each night I write a song about a certain player detailing what item they have. So basically I'm a flavor cop/burgler/thief whatever you want to call it.
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I'm a bard, each night I write a song about a certain player detailing what item they have. So basically I'm a flavor cop/burgler/thief whatever you want to call it.
and you targeted me on night1? Who on night2? What can you tell about them?
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This meas that I am not a lynch candidate. I will flip town after tonight anyway.
It is also worth noting that flavor vise, mordeth would be the one character interested in stealing my dagger. It would not suprise me if that flavor is in the game, and has a role that allows him to steal stuff from people.
At last some speculation: If we have mordeth as a third party that stole my dagger, I thing it is likely that they get some sort of bonus or empowerment by doing so. Something to keep in the back of the head.
Also... so xeiron you can't target anyone? Do you have any real night action? If you can't why do you have this dagger?
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Definitely don't want to lynch xeiron after the claim I believe he is town. From what I can tell flavor wise he's either mat (town) or mordeth and if he's alive tomorrow we can lynch him (depending on parity and if we want to lynch third party over mafia).
I agree with lynching arch or jimmm, arch has seemed scummier to me a bit. Need to do that d2 reread still.
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D1 Yuma had a couple of maiden spears
D2 xerxes had cuendillar
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D1 Yuma had a couple of maiden spears
D2 xerxes had cuendillar
No idea what that is....why target xerxes? and why target me?
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D1 I was kinda dubious of your claim and wanted to make sure it was sure. I realized how foolish that was once I got a couple of maiden spears, because if you're town, you're a vig and have weapons, and if you're scum, you can kill and have weapons. So that was pretty pointless.
N2 I targeted Xerxes even though I had a town read, since he was a mailman. I figured that if he was a mailman I'd get something that definitely indicated that, and if he was scum I'd get some sort of weapon. Unfortunately all I got was cuendillar, but it's not so bad, because it definitely indicates that he is Egwene (from my understanding), and Egwene is definitely a good character.
So I am like 99% sure that Xerxes is town. I wanted to ask Xeiron whether he thought Xerxes was a town or scum mailman to gauge his reaction. I lean town on Xeiron too, but not as much as Xerxes.
I actually have a lot of town reads, Yuma/Xerxes >> Andrew >> Ash > Xeiron > Jimmmm/Arch for me. I would be shocked if there's not scum in Jimmmm/Arch, I really think we should lynch there today.
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I think I am closer to a role cop than a thief, Yuma's item could work for both role/flavor, but Xerxes' item was related to flavor and not role (unless I am missing some connection but I don't think I am)
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We also may need to be careful, with 8 alive, after lynch that's 7, xeiron's death + mafia death + SK death could leave us at 4 with 2 mafia remaining. Although I think no-lynching isn't in our best interest, because I think we have a decent chance of hitting scum today, and even if we mislynch the SK will definitely be shooting at mafia, so that's 2 chances.
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I guess mostly I am a little surprised you chose to look at two players who could both independently verify their claims... me via dayvigging and xerxes via sending a letter to someone who could verify it.
Your claims aren't scummy though as scum I think would want to investigate players to find out roles (rather than confirm them) but so would a general townie seeking to learn of a scummy role....
I can confirm that you were right about the spears and xerxes should confirm correctly about what you found from him... (cuendillar?)
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I'm Perrin Aybara, and I have a role that confirms TA's claim. Do you really want a full claim?
As mentioned, I was blocked last night.
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Cuendillar (pronounced CWAIN-de-yar), also known as heartstone, is an almost indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. It absorbs any force attempting to break it, including the One Power, and is believed to become stronger as a result.
That's from the wiki.
Sounds like an absorber role to me.
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I can give flavor too if you guys want, I guess there's no reason not to.
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Cuendillar (pronounced CWAIN-de-yar), also known as heartstone, is an almost indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. It absorbs any force attempting to break it, including the One Power, and is believed to become stronger as a result.
That's from the wiki.
Sounds like an absorber role to me.
yeah that is interesting.... mail-man doesn't really fit that, but xeiron says he can confirm getting a letter.
But xerxes is one player that is known to have targeted xeiron potentially causing this adverse effect....
maybe leaves a letter and then takes the ability somehow?
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I don't think so Ash, cause we have Xeiron confirming that he got a letter from Xerxes. So I am pretty sure that Xerxes is a mailman, but the question is, scum or town mailman? Cuendillar is linked to Egwene...from the wiki..."Egwene al'Vere was able to reconstruct the weave for making cuendillar from iron by using flows of Earth, Air and Fire." So I think he is Egwene, and Egwene is a good character. So I think Xerxes is town.
Yuma, I wasn't trying to confirm Xerxes' claim, I never really doubted he was mailman. I was hoping to figure out if he was a town mailman or a scum mailman.
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I'm Perrin Aybara, and I have a role that confirms TA's claim. Do you really want a full claim?
As mentioned, I was blocked last night.
I mean, kinda.... It is hard because w/o knowing how you know TAs alignment we can't verify it ourselves...
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Ash, by absorber do you mean lightning rod?
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I am Thomdril Merrlin, by the way.
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I mean it's possible Ash is like a watcher/tracker/something who can verify that I targeted Yuma last night. I doubt he's a cop because I don't think we'd have 2 cops + my role. If he's watcher/tracker or something, is it really worth him saying his exact role if his information doesn't verify it? It may be so he has less fakeclaim options later if he's scum, but as for verifying my role, I don't see the difference between believing him pre or post fullclaim...either you believe him or you don't.
I personally would like to see him claim, but I would also like to see a massclaim
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Ash, by absorber do you mean lightning rod?
That works too. I meant absorber, which is a role that steals powers.
I mean, kinda.... It is hard because w/o knowing how you know TAs alignment we can't verify it ourselves...
I'm investigative, I'm confirming what TA's decided to claim.
I mean it's possible Ash is like a watcher/tracker/something who can verify that I targeted Yuma last night. I doubt he's a cop because I don't think we'd have 2 cops + my role. If he's watcher/tracker or something, is it really worth him saying his exact role if his information doesn't verify it? It may be so he has less fakeclaim options later if he's scum, but as for verifying my role, I don't see the difference between believing him pre or post fullclaim...either you believe him or you don't.
I personally would like to see him claim, but I would also like to see a massclaim
We've had a "tainted cop," which I'm not sure what that means, and we have you. We're dealing with multiple factions, so there's a lot of ways to create "cops" that don't OP town. Plus now we know that scum had a redirector, which can cause havoc and godfather folks with cops.
I'd like to know what tainted cop was. Too bad ADK didn't get to claim before being vigged. Was he a cop that could catch the "tainted"? Were his results tainted? Does tainted mean something in WOT flavor?
Xeiron has admitted to also being tainted. So there's something to that.
If we want full massclaims, we need an order.
I'd put the Jimmm/Arch/X/X quartet up first, probably in that order.
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If we want full massclaims, we need an order.
I'd put the Jimmm/Arch/X/X quartet up first, probably in that order.
I am working through the order... I am still not convinced we need a mass claim. X/X have already more or less completely claimed. You have alluded to stuff--as had TA and xeiron--hence my wanting you to claim first.
I am not sold that Arch and Jimmmm need to claim. Everyone else has referenced something that I think should come out in the open. We can wait on Jimmmm and Arch for a bit.
Ash I think you should full claim...
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Ash I think you should full claim...
With full result? Just want to know if you want to out two town PRs fully to scum, or just me.
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Hey, sorry guys for slacking off here. Been very busy with school and have only had a little bit of time to check in and update Rainbow Mafia.
yuma: What do you want me to do? I don't know if you still find it relevant, but I can reread Wither weaver. From what other people have pulled up, I'm wanting to lynch out of Jimmmmm/ashersly. Mostly ashersly, but I think Jimmmmm has a fair chance at flipping scum.
I support a mass claim.
PPE: 3
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I firmly want to lynch Jimmmm or Arch, I have good reasons to believe everyone else is town.
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Heading to lunch imminently, btw. Back in an hour.
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Ash I think you should full claim...
With full result? Just want to know if you want to out two town PRs fully to scum, or just me.
I don't really follow... yes I think you should full claim. Apparently we are doing a full claim.
But let's have arch and Jimmmm claim first. I would prefer Jimmmm to go before archetype, but since arch is here it might be more convenient since we won't know when we will hear from Jimmm again...
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Although I do feel like I am being pressured into having arch and Jimmm claim when a good reason hasn't really been offered...
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This meas that I am not a lynch candidate. I will flip town after tonight anyway.
It is also worth noting that flavor vise, mordeth would be the one character interested in stealing my dagger. It would not suprise me if that flavor is in the game, and has a role that allows him to steal stuff from people.
At last some speculation: If we have mordeth as a third party that stole my dagger, I thing it is likely that they get some sort of bonus or empowerment by doing so. Something to keep in the back of the head.
This does seem to point to TA being scum...but I think it's pretty unlikely and ash said that he can confirm his claim.
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This meas that I am not a lynch candidate. I will flip town after tonight anyway.
It is also worth noting that flavor vise, mordeth would be the one character interested in stealing my dagger. It would not suprise me if that flavor is in the game, and has a role that allows him to steal stuff from people.
At last some speculation: If we have mordeth as a third party that stole my dagger, I thing it is likely that they get some sort of bonus or empowerment by doing so. Something to keep in the back of the head.
This does seem to point to TA being scum...but I think it's pretty unlikely and ash said that he can confirm his claim.
Hmm but I suppose that a TA/ashersky team would be possible. Hardcore confirmation like that wouldn't be too crazy for ash to do. I still think Twistedarcher is more likely Town.
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Yuma if you don't want to do a full claim, Arch and Jimmmmm should absolutely not claim.
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Ash I think you should full claim...
With full result? Just want to know if you want to out two town PRs fully to scum, or just me.
I don't really follow... yes I think you should full claim. Apparently we are doing a full claim.
But let's have arch and Jimmmm claim first. I would prefer Jimmmm to go before archetype, but since arch is here it might be more convenient since we won't know when we will hear from Jimmm again...
I will claim if you want me to, and don't mind going first, but I want some assurance that everyone else claims as well.
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Alright go ahead Arch.
If Jimmmm comes on in the next little bit I would like him to claim before ashersky, but we can't wait all day as we should start moving toward a lynch at some point.
Xerxes also needs to fully claim as well, although I think we know most everything about him.
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Alright go ahead Arch.
If Jimmmm comes on in the next little bit I would like him to claim before ashersky, but we can't wait all day as we should start moving toward a lynch at some point.
Xerxes also needs to fully claim as well, although I think we know most everything about him.
Alright.
I'm a Seraph Knight. Once in the game I can target someone. For the rest of the game, I will protect that player from ALL kills that target them. I targeted yuma on N1.
There is another half to my role, but I don't know if I should claim it. Yuma, do you want me to?
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Oh. And my flavor is Moiraine Damodred.
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Alright go ahead Arch.
If Jimmmm comes on in the next little bit I would like him to claim before ashersky, but we can't wait all day as we should start moving toward a lynch at some point.
Xerxes also needs to fully claim as well, although I think we know most everything about him.
Alright.
I'm a Seraph Knight. Once in the game I can target someone. For the rest of the game, I will protect that player from ALL kills that target them. I targeted yuma on N1.
There is another half to my role, but I don't know if I should claim it. Yuma, do you want me to?
I think not
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Jimmmmm was on at 9:54. If we are doing this, we should go full on.
I am telling you right now that this full claim will absolutely give scum information they will be glad to have. If we are doing a full massclaim, so be it, but you need to be sure.
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TA, I think it's just you and me now.
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I'm at work, so I can't do much right now, but I can claim if that's what we're doing.
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I'm at work, so I can't do much right now, but I can claim if that's what we're doing.
Yuma's last post was basically that we are massclaiming, order begins with arch and you, then me. That's my understanding.
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I'm a Seraph Knight. Once in the game I can target someone. For the rest of the game, I will protect that player from ALL kills that target them. I targeted yuma on N1.
So as long as you're alive and not roleblocked, yuma is Bulletproof?
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I'm a Seraph Knight. Once in the game I can target someone. For the rest of the game, I will protect that player from ALL kills that target them. I targeted yuma on N1.
So as long as you're alive and not roleblocked, yuma is Bulletproof?
Seraph Knight is like a permanent Doctor for 1 player. I don't think you can block it. My guess is as long as Arch is alive, so is yuma.
This could explain lack of death on N2.
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Anyway, no reason for me to wait longer I guess.
I'm a Tracker.
Night 1 I Tracked shraeye and got no result.
Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
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Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
Or redirecting his power.
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Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
Or redirecting his power.
I say this because, well, Andrew didn't die. So if he was trying to kill him, why didn't he die?
Scumspiracy theory: Andrew's role works as described (a dual role that lets him do both if he is targeted), so they used one scum role (redirector) to direct another scum role (RB + ?) to whomever they wanted?
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That's a genius (and easily provided) fakeclaim, too.
Say Andrew is a Mafia Split JOATish thing. Each night, he can do 1 thing, and if he's targeted, also another.
Like, "You may roleblock one player at night. Additionally, if you are targeted at night, when you perform the factional kill, it will be strongman." Or something.
Pretty cool role. Good job Jorblmi!
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That's a genius (and easily provided) fakeclaim, too.
Say Andrew is a Mafia Split JOATish thing. Each night, he can do 1 thing, and if he's targeted, also another.
Like, "You may roleblock one player at night. Additionally, if you are targeted at night, when you perform the factional kill, it will be strongman." Or something.
Pretty cool role. Good job Jorblmi!
Well, clearly not that actual combo, since I didn't die when Andrew roleblocked me.
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Alternate townsipracy: Witherweaver redirected Andrew's block/doc to me.
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That's a lot of text. Sadly my extra thing isn't that powerful. If someone is at a "meeting" with me and I send a message to them, I become mod-confirmed town to them.
Xeiron said he did not get my alignment confirmed to him.
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Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
Or redirecting his power.
I say this because, well, Andrew didn't die. So if he was trying to kill him, why didn't he die?
Scumspiracy theory: Andrew's role works as described (a dual role that lets him do both if he is targeted), so they used one scum role (redirector) to direct another scum role (RB + ?) to whomever they wanted?
If he redirected from Andrew to someone else, I would have seen the other name as well right? I checked with mail-mi, and Witherweaver only targeted Andrew.
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Obviously if we don't have an explanation as to how Andrew survived that casts some doubt onto it being the kill, but I don't think I'd only see one name for a redirection.
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Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
Or redirecting his power.
I say this because, well, Andrew didn't die. So if he was trying to kill him, why didn't he die?
Scumspiracy theory: Andrew's role works as described (a dual role that lets him do both if he is targeted), so they used one scum role (redirector) to direct another scum role (RB + ?) to whomever they wanted?
If he redirected from Andrew to someone else, I would have seen the other name as well right? I checked with mail-mi, and Witherweaver only targeted Andrew.
I don't know, but my mod gut says you are conflating redirector with bus driver. Bus driver switches two players, so you would target two. Redirector aims someone else where they want, so I think you'd only target one.
I could be wrong, although that's how I'd mod it.
Andrew is alive, I was blocked. If Andrew is telling the truth, redirected makes the most sense. If you are telling the truth, scum targeted Andrew and he didn't die, so it seems likely he's either a partner who needed redirecting or not scum. (I guess he could be a third party, but I just don't see that.)
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My understanding of Redirector is that you target two players, and all other actions that target the first player are redirected to the second player. After I got my result and saw WW's flip I asked mail-mi if that meant he ONLY targeted Andrew, and he said it did.
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I targeted Jimmmmm on N2, but got a no result result. Hence knowing I was blocked. Commuting or Hiding could have caused a no result, but Jimmmmm didn't claim those.
Lots of investigative roles claimed/flipped:
Tainted Cop (ADK), Tracker (Jimmmmm), Voyeur (Faust), Thief (TA), Role Cop (Ash)
The funny thing is, except for Tainted Cop, this isn't the craziest thing to see. You've got Tracker and Voyeur, which are bits of a JOAT, and you've got Thief and Role Cop, which are both weaker than full cop since they focus on Flavor and Role (former and latter). I don't know what Tainted Cop is, except I'm guessing that it's a cop that looks for the "tainted" players. Maybe that's the FBI Agent (SK Cop) of the game?
That'd be a lot of smaller investigative roles in the game. Not everyone has claimed shots, of course, so we don't know the limitations there.
If most or all of these are true, scum has roles that would help deflect this. Redirector is clearly one. Maybe there's a Godfather type role, maybe ninja/strongman?
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My understanding of Redirector is that you target two players, and all other actions that target the first player are redirected to the second player. After I got my result and saw WW's flip I asked mail-mi if that meant he ONLY targeted Andrew, and he said it did.
Mafiascum says: A Redirector is a role that causes all actions taken a specific by a specific player at Night to target a specific second player instead of whatever their original target was.
I mean, mod decision I guess, but to me, Redirector Targets Player A and tells the mod all of Player A's actions will target Player B. So Redirector Targets A, A targets B.
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Everyone but Xeiron has claimed, right?
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I mean, mod decision I guess, but to me, Redirector Targets Player A and tells the mod all of Player A's actions will target Player B. So Redirector Targets A, A targets B.
You may be right. I'd find it weird if you can name and affect a player, but not "target" them. If there's no explanation as to how Andrew could have survived a NK we may have to assume you're right. Of course, it would seem that someone survived a NK.
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I mean, mod decision I guess, but to me, Redirector Targets Player A and tells the mod all of Player A's actions will target Player B. So Redirector Targets A, A targets B.
You may be right. I'd find it weird if you can name and affect a player, but not "target" them. If there's no explanation as to how Andrew could have survived a NK we may have to assume you're right. Of course, it would seem that someone survived a NK.
At least one, right? I mean, we only have one claimed vig, and that's yuma, who killed scum last night.
We had two deaths on N1, both town. No one has claimed those. Then no town deaths on N2?
Thing is, we've seen 1 claim that could block a kill (Andrew) and no one else. There's blocking, but you either argue that Andrew RBed the killer or doctored the target, and you still seem to be missing a second kill, unless the SK shot WW along with yuma.
One theory that's been floated is:
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots WW
mafia shoots yuma
Andrew docs yuma
That results in three shots but one death.
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Flavor: matt cauthon.
Role: tainted semi-ascetic townie
It means I am:
- Immune against night action using the one power.
- If i loose my dagger i becomes hated the next day, and dies the next night.
So basically you are a completely negative utility? Do you know what the one power is that you are immune to?
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power
Maybe SK is a channeler? Are they bad?
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We also may need to be careful, with 8 alive, after lynch that's 7, xeiron's death + mafia death + SK death could leave us at 4 with 2 mafia remaining. Although I think no-lynching isn't in our best interest, because I think we have a decent chance of hitting scum today, and even if we mislynch the SK will definitely be shooting at mafia, so that's 2 chances.
Doesn't this math make a Xeiron lynch better today?
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That's a lot of text. Sadly my extra thing isn't that powerful. If someone is at a "meeting" with me and I send a message to them, I become mod-confirmed town to them.
Xeiron said he did not get my alignment confirmed to him.
this is consistent with something you said at the start of hte game, I won't pull the quote but I very much remember it...
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
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One theory that's been floated is:
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots WW
mafia shoots yuma
Andrew docs yuma
That results in three shots but one death.
Or...
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots yuma (blocked by Arch and Andrew)
mafia shoots yuma (blocked by Arch and Andrew)
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Flavor: matt cauthon.
Role: tainted semi-ascetic townie
It means I am:
- Immune against night action using the one power.
- If i loose my dagger i becomes hated the next day, and dies the next night.
So basically you are a completely negative utility? Do you know what the one power is that you are immune to?
The one power , is a flavor thing. It is magic in the WOT- universe,
Sudgy
A Drowned Kernel
Xerxes
Andrew
Yuma
Archetype
and all of the forsaken (mafia)
Are all charackter that in the book can use The one power.
Some of them apperently have roles that don't use this power.
I am mostly negative utility, except for one addition. I get notified if one or more player tried to use the one power on me during a night. This has not jet happened.
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Vote:ash
Lies going around here, and Ashersky is scummier than TA to me. (I was almost viable lynch candidate, and that's where scum really needs to vote.)
The situation makes lynching xeiron also possible.
I'll make a list of all claims in a bit.
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
I think it means TA is 1-shot bulletproof (only from mafia kills) and a theif.
A serialkiller role if I ever saw one.
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Oh. unvote
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
I think it means TA is 1-shot bulletproof (only from mafia kills) and a theif.
A serialkiller role if I ever saw one.
ah, 1-shot Immune. Ok.
Do you think he targeted you last night? Xerxes can you confirm that you have the object TA said you had?
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One theory that's been floated is:
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots WW
mafia shoots yuma
Andrew docs yuma
That results in three shots but one death.
Or...
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots yuma (blocked by Arch and Andrew)
mafia shoots yuma (blocked by Arch and Andrew)
or...
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots yuma (blocked by arch)
Mafia shoots TA (blocked by forsaken immune)
or...
yuma shoots WW
SK shoots WW
Mafia Ashersky is blocked by a redirected Andrew.
There is suddenly lots of possibilities.
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I think we still also need Andrew to claim his night1 actions and reverify what he did night2
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The object TA mentioned is not in my PM.
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
I think it means TA is 1-shot bulletproof (only from mafia kills) and a theif.
A serialkiller role if I ever saw one.
ah, 1-shot Immune. Ok.
Do you think he targeted you last night? Xerxes can you confirm that you have the object TA said you had?
Yes I think TA targeted me.
Ashersky just said his role name was theif, not bard as TA claimed. Smells like a fakeclaim.
TA also claimed to have targeted a already known flavor. It means he could have just googled a item to tie with the flavor. cuendillar is related to the flavor of Egwene, but totally unrelated to the role Xerxes has in this game. This stands in contrast to the maiden spear - a object both tied to the flavor of Aviendha and to the role of Vigilante.
I know something was stolen from me. The natural explanation is that the theif did it.
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The object TA mentioned is not in my PM.
hmmmm.... does anyone else have this object in their flavor name? I guess technically the maiden spears weren't in my PM, but instead where in my flavor name....
Maybe TA's investigation was redirected somewhere via WW? No... not according to Jimmmmm.
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Alright, my bout of sleeplessness is over. Remember we still have some time so don't rush into a lynch...
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My understanding of Redirector is that you target two players, and all other actions that target the first player are redirected to the second player. After I got my result and saw WW's flip I asked mail-mi if that meant he ONLY targeted Andrew, and he said it did.
I was a random redirector in RMM12. I targeted one player, and that player was redirected into targeting another player randomly selectet among all living player. WW could have been something like that.
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
Well, the PM result was green, for one thing.
But, he's 1-shot immune from the "mafia" so he isn't that, and his role isn't "serial killer" which makes him not that. Town thief is what he is.
Role Cop returns role. SK is a role. Like, I don't know if WW would have returned "Forsaken-aligned Redirector" or just "Redirector" but I'm confident SK returns SK.
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
Well, the PM result was green, for one thing.
But, he's 1-shot immune from the "mafia" so he isn't that, and his role isn't "serial killer" which makes him not that. Town thief is what he is.
Role Cop returns role. SK is a role. Like, I don't know if WW would have returned "Forsaken-aligned Redirector" or just "Redirector" but I'm confident SK returns SK.
I have difficult to believe that you get both allignment and role of who you target.
Serial killer is a role, but also fully indicates allignment. I have no problem with it 'SK' being excluded from your result.
Ash, do you really belive we have two town flavor cops in the game?
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I'm a Role Cop.
I targeted TA on N1, and he's a 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thief.
I guess I don't understand why this makes TA town... He is a 1-shot? Then how has he used his role twice?
Well, the PM result was green, for one thing.
But, he's 1-shot immune from the "mafia" so he isn't that, and his role isn't "serial killer" which makes him not that. Town thief is what he is.
Role Cop returns role. SK is a role. Like, I don't know if WW would have returned "Forsaken-aligned Redirector" or just "Redirector" but I'm confident SK returns SK.
I have difficult to believe that you get both allignment and role of who you target.
Serial killer is a role, but also fully indicates allignment. I have no problem with it 'SK' being excluded from your result.
Ash, do you really belive we have two town flavor cops in the game?
Role and Flavor are different. I did not receive TA's flavor name.
Could I be misinterpreting my result on TA and he's actually the SK? I suppose it is possible, but it's so highly improbable that I'm not considering it.
What result does a Role Cop get when he investigates a serial killer, if not "serial killer"? "Goon" is a role in regular games that role cops get, too. Or "vanilla." SK is SK.
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Confirm what ash says. Also I was shot last night, I believe I was the mafia kill, not Yuma.
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Confirm what ash says. Also I was shot last night, I believe I was the mafia kill, not Yuma.
Ok.... so are you a bard or a thief?
Xerxes doesn't have that thingy you mentioned. What do you make of that?
And ash... I disagree that SK is a role. Maybe in a normal game it is... Actually no. I would still disagree there. A role cop who targets a SK would come up with Vanilla, unless the SK had been given some sort of role.
Would you consider Mafia Goon a role? Because Role Cops don't return "Goon" they return "Vanilla" on them. So TA could very easily be the SK and something I am beginning to strongly believe.
As for the Green part... well I have no idea about that. I would think that you getting something in color indicates that all results will be green. Was it bright green or dark green? Also if you received results in true color (red or whatever) you would stop being a role cop and start being a true alignment cop.
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What result does a Role Cop get when he investigates a serial killer, if not "serial killer"? "Goon" is a role in regular games that role cops get, too. Or "vanilla." SK is SK.
No!
Role cops do not return "Goon!"
Never have and never should! Because then they stop being role cops and turn into alignment cops.
from the wiki:
if a Mafia Goon is investigated, they return "Vanilla".
Same with the SK. Unless the SK is given some sort of ability, 1-shot Bulletproof or something...
I am really surprised you are making these poor setup assumptions.
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Confirm what ash says. Also I was shot last night, I believe I was the mafia kill, not Yuma.
How do you know you were shot last night?
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In terms of other roles:
I still don't understand xeiron's role. It just seems overly complicated compared to the rest of ours.
Xerxes I am still a bit wary of because we know he targeted xeiron last night and now xeiron is "sick" coincidence? Maybe?
Jimmmm is the one role that right now has zero confirmation from alive players. Might be true but all of his targets are dead. After he claimed TA conveniently backed up that he was shot? That would have been nice to know before TA when you were claiming.
I am surprised that we have Alignment Cop, Flavor Cop and Tainted Cop. Maybe someone already said this, but is Tainted a WoT thing? I couldn't find anything along those lines in the mafiawiki... Ash is right that it is possible we just have a cop heavy game, but given that there are many other role avenues that have not been explored in this game I am a bit surprised.
I still think Andrew's claim holds up pretty well. We still need his day1 target I believe. But no one else has claimed JK, which I would be surprised if there wasn't a JK in the game. There is a doc varient in Archetype's role.
And I do believe very strongly Archetype's role. He is completely off the table for lynching today and I would strongly recommend that Andrew consider targeting Archetype tonight as it appears I can't be killed unless Archetype is killed first. Arch can you verify that your role can't be blocked from working on me.... if you are roleblocked does the protection still occur? I am not saying 100% do that, but consider doing it very strongly.
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Confirm what ash says. Also I was shot last night, I believe I was the mafia kill, not Yuma.
How do you know you were shot last night?
Mod confirmed.
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Why?
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Confirm what ash says. Also I was shot last night, I believe I was the mafia kill, not Yuma.
How do you know you were shot last night?
Mod confirmed.
I mean... is that an ability of yours? Is it in your PM? it isn;t general practice to tell someone they wrer almost killed in the night... so why were you?
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It's not but I was pmed last night I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
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It's not but I was pmed last night I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
gotcha... can i ask why you left this part out when you initially claimed....
and again why are you saying bard when ash is saying thief?
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I am a thief but bard sounds better I was afraid if I said thief I'd be lynched. But yes I am a thief.
I left it out because I thought scum shot me and I wanted them to be confused as to why I was alive. Scum learn way more from knowing it than own does I think
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ever hear the phrase "never lie as town"?
and why were you afraid... you already had everyone pretty much thinking you were town based of ash's result that used faulty setup reasoning to get there... but that is beside the point...
I think i want to lynch TA
If you are town.... DON'T LIE AS TOWN!
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ever hear the phrase "never lie as town"?
and why were you afraid... you already had everyone pretty much thinking you were town based of ash's result that used faulty setup reasoning to get there... but that is beside the point...
I think i want to lynch TA
If you are town.... DON'T LIE AS TOWN!
While i agree that TA is not town, I am not sure lynching him is the right move.
Assume we lynch TA and he flips SK.
- If Andrews blocks the NK, all is well. Lynch tree out of Archetype, Ash, Jimm, and xerxes and win if we get both scum.
- If Andrews does not blocks the NK, he probably dies, and we are in lylo, and have to lynch two scum in a row. Do we think we can make that?
The alternative is to try to lynch mafia today, and then let mafia and SK kill each other.
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Hey guys I'm without a phone right now. I'm hoping my new phone arrives at the hotel today but if not, I'll be without a phone for a few more days and can only check in on hotel computers (like I'm doing now).
Would lynching the SK tonight be good or bad?
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And yes I'm caught up, though so much has been said in the last few pages I'm sorry if I missed something.
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D1 I was kinda dubious of your claim and wanted to make sure it was sure. I realized how foolish that was once I got a couple of maiden spears, because if you're town, you're a vig and have weapons, and if you're scum, you can kill and have weapons. So that was pretty pointless.
N2 I targeted Xerxes even though I had a town read, since he was a mailman. I figured that if he was a mailman I'd get something that definitely indicated that, and if he was scum I'd get some sort of weapon. Unfortunately all I got was cuendillar, but it's not so bad, because it definitely indicates that he is Egwene (from my understanding), and Egwene is definitely a good character.
I'm confused. You targeted yuma during D1 and Xerxes N2?
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Andrew while you are here we need who you targeted Night1 and Night2 confirmed
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D1 I was kinda dubious of your claim and wanted to make sure it was sure. I realized how foolish that was once I got a couple of maiden spears, because if you're town, you're a vig and have weapons, and if you're scum, you can kill and have weapons. So that was pretty pointless.
N2 I targeted Xerxes even though I had a town read, since he was a mailman. I figured that if he was a mailman I'd get something that definitely indicated that, and if he was scum I'd get some sort of weapon. Unfortunately all I got was cuendillar, but it's not so bad, because it definitely indicates that he is Egwene (from my understanding), and Egwene is definitely a good character.
I'm confused. You targeted yuma during D1 and Xerxes N2?
Yuma N1, Xerxes N2
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I roleblocked TA N1.
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I roleblocked TA N1.
well now that just doesn't make any sense...
TA said he investigated me and got a result. Something in my PM that he couldn't have known. So either your action didn't go through or TA is unroleblockable or you aren't telling the truth...
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Jimm said WW (redirector) targeted me D1. So somebody got roleblocked N1.
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I mean N1.
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Roleblocked AND doctored.
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Right... right... I forgot about Jimmmm saying that about Night1
OK... so this is how I understand it:
TA targeted yuma (got a result)
Andrew targeted TA (intending to roleblock)
WW targeted Andrew (redirected Andrew's roleblock, turning it into a JK, to someone other than TA)
Jimmmm targeted WW (saw WW target Andrew)
It wasn't ash. It wasn't Xerxes. It could have been redirected to me or xeiron I believe or anyone else that is dead...
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Yeah. So just a whole lot of nothing.
As far as flavor stuff, saidin, which is the male half of the true source, is "tainted" by evil. Other than that, "tainted" doesn't really have much to do with anything. As far as cuendillar goes, I guess I'm not at the part where Egewene deals with that. Cuendillar is what the Dark One's seals are made out of, and it was once unbreakable. The seals on the Dark One's prison are weakening and thus Cuendillar is no longer indestructible. I guess Egwene fixes that later.
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What? Andrew, I got a result on Yuma n1.
This doesn't make sense.
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What? Andrew, I got a result on Yuma n1.
This doesn't make sense.
See everything above. We are pretty sure that Andrew's power was redirected by WW, confirmed by Jimmmm seeing WW target Andrew. I am pretty sure that is right at least...
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Anyway, no reason for me to wait longer I guess.
I'm a Tracker.
Night 1 I Tracked shraeye and got no result.
Night 2 I Tracked Witherweaver. The ONLY person he targeted was Andrew. I think that probably means he was targeting Andrew for the Nightkill?
Wait... Jimmmm said this about Night2. So it could still apply night1 and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, but it isn't as confirmed as I thought.
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I think based off what we know... WW's action was to not target Andrew for the kill, but instead use it as a mafia JK to stop anyone else... I would not be surprised if they did this both night1 and night2 to stop whomever they thought might have a good role...
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Someone is definitely lying at some point of this chain, though.... I highly doubt everyone involved is town. There is mafia in there. Keep in kind mafia know exactly what ww did and are more able to manipulate his results
I would guess jimmmmm. If he is mafia he KNOWS who ww targeted n1 so there's no risk of a counterclaim.
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Someone is definitely lying at some point of this chain, though....
Definitely?
You are the only one that has lied with absolute certainty. Everything else is mere speculation because of mafia's redirector role...
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You are right about Andrew/ jimmm... Let me think about this when I get home
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AH you're right! Sorry I missed that. I guess that means I was roleblocked or... something. I'm so confused.
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Look if I am mafia and Andrew is what he claimed at the end of day1 and I have a redirecting power than I am going to use it on Andrew!
It is a really good strat and probably the obvious choice. You target him, change what he was going to do--which is a very strong role--and turn it on someone else. So you are effectively blocking two town PRs! Well done scum. And I am sure they did it both night1 and night2 so that explains what happened to your stuff ta and explains why Jimmmm saw what he saw.
Assuming people are in fact telling the truth, but stuff just makes sense here...
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So who do you think the mafia are Yuma?
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So who do you think the mafia are Yuma?
Not me, not Archetype. Still pretty confident not Andrew.
I don't see the point of Xerxes role if he is mafia... unless he can subtly poison people like he did to xeiron. But I think he is one of the most suspect in terms of stuff with WW, which we should remember when talking about all of this mass claim stuff...
Xeiron appears to be dying anyway (sidebar: xeiron, if we kill the person who stole your dagger would you recover? That might be a really good reason to try and kill the SK today) but I am still kinda suspect of him.
I think you have a high % of being a SK or even mafia partnered with ash who is lying about your role... but probably more likely to be SK.
Leaving ash and Jimmmm as mafia kinda by default?
Ash I could see being a real Role Cop for mafia... Jimmmm had a very flimsy role claim, which if true is the way it is, but if fake was not able to really be verified at all...
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Ok we gotta organize this.
Andrew - Nynaeve - Split Jailkeeper
N1 - Roleblocked TA
N2 - Doctored yuma
yuma - Aviendha - JOAT Vig
D2 - Shot ADK
N2 - Shot WW
Archetype - Seraph Knight - 1-Shot Permanent Doctor thing
N1 - Permanently doctors yuma
Xeiron - Mat Cauthon - Tainted Anti-Ascetic Townie
Immune against night action using the one power
Twistedarcher - Thomdril Merrilin - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N1 - Targeted yuma
N2 - Targeted Xerxespraelor
ashersky - Perrin Aybara - Role Cop
N1 - Targeted TA
N2 - Targeted Jimm - no result
Jimmmmm - ? - Tracker
N1 - Tracked shraeye - no result
N2 - Tracked Witherweaver - targeted Andrew
Xerxespraelor - Egwene - Mailman
N1 - Sent message to shraeye
N2 - Sent message to Xeiron
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Thanks Andrew.
So for me I think it likely "possible" that mafia used Andrew to block someone night1 and used Andrew to block ashersky Night2. This makes me read townier on ashersky a bit...
The big issues for me at this point all regard TA:
1. he lied about being a thief...
2. he said xerxes has something that xerxes claims to not have...
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The other thing that's weird is Xerxes sent a message to Xeiron and it was confirmed. Xeiron is immune to night actions using the one power but if Xerxes is Egwene then the night action would most likely be using the one power. This probably doesn't mean much though.
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Thanks Andrew.
So for me I think it likely "possible" that mafia used Andrew to block someone night1 and used Andrew to block ashersky Night2. This makes me read townier on ashersky a bit...
The big issues for me at this point all regard TA:
1. he lied about being a thief...
2. he said xerxes has something that xerxes claims to not have...
He didn't exactly lie about being a thief but your second point is sill unexplained. But then there's the claim that he was shot last night. If he's specifically forsaken immune that would indeed mean it was a mafia shot assuming mafia are all forsaken (like WW).
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Filling out on the list:
Andrew - Nynaeve - Split Jailkeeper
N1 - Roleblocked TA
N2 - Doctored yuma
yuma - Aviendha - JOAT Vig
D2 - Shot ADK
N2 - Shot WW
Archetype - Moiraine - Seraph Knight - 1-Shot Permanent Doctor thing
N1 - Permanently doctors yuma
Xeiron - Mat Cauthon - Tainted Anti-Ascetic Townie
Immune against night action using the one power
Twistedarcher - Thomdril Merrilin - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N1 - Targeted yuma
N2 - Targeted Xerxespraelor
ashersky - Perrin Aybara - Role Cop
N1 - Targeted TA
N2 - Targeted Jimm - no result
Jimmmmm - ? - Tracker
N1 - Tracked shraeye - no result
N2 - Tracked Witherweaver - targeted Andrew
Xerxespraelor - Egwene - Mailman
N1 - Sent message to shraeye
N2 - Sent message to Xeiron
___________Dead_Players:_____________
Sudgy - Elayne Trankand - a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)
Lynced D1
A Drowned Kernel - Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn - a Tainted Cop
N1 - Targeted ??
Dayvigged D2
Faust - Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw - Viewer (Voyeur).
N1 - targeted ??
Killed N1
Shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.
N1 - Did not commute
Killed N1
Witherweaver - Rahvin, the Diplomat - a Forsaken-aligned Redirector
N1 - Targeted ??
N2 - Targeted Andrew
Killed N2
[/quote]
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The other thing that's weird is Xerxes sent a message to Xeiron and it was confirmed. Xeiron is immune to night actions using the one power but if Xerxes is Egwene then the night action would most likely be using the one power. This probably doesn't mean much though.
This one did give me a pause as well. I think the explanatin is that the mailman-power is flavorly tied to the dreamworld, tel'aran'rhiod, and not to use of the one power, and that is why I am not immune against recieving letters.
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So who do you think the mafia are Yuma?
Not me, not Archetype. Still pretty confident not Andrew.
I don't see the point of Xerxes role if he is mafia... unless he can subtly poison people like he did to xeiron. But I think he is one of the most suspect in terms of stuff with WW, which we should remember when talking about all of this mass claim stuff...
Xeiron appears to be dying anyway (sidebar: xeiron, if we kill the person who stole your dagger would you recover? That might be a really good reason to try and kill the SK today) but I am still kinda suspect of him.
I think you have a high % of being a SK or even mafia partnered with ash who is lying about your role... but probably more likely to be SK.
Leaving ash and Jimmmm as mafia kinda by default?
Ash I could see being a real Role Cop for mafia... Jimmmm had a very flimsy role claim, which if true is the way it is, but if fake was not able to really be verified at all...
I really doubt it.
If there exists a method to save me, one of Sudgys invention is my best guess. To late for that now.
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I would highly recommend asking the mod in a PM. At the least he says no and we are in the same spot...
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My opinions on this game are very vague and ill-formed, and I totally stopped keeping up with. From what I remember, Andrew and ash have been at each other's throats, and there's very good chance one of them is scum. I could see it being either of them, and they're probably my top two lynch candidates for today.
The only people I don't think I'd lynch are witherweaver, who seems very townie on a brief reread, and yuma, though the longer he goes without shooting the more I'm likely to vote for him.
So I guess doing the list thing, but splitting into three:
Would like to lynch:
AndrewisFTTW
ashersky
Would be willing to lynch:
XP
xeiron
TA
jim
archetype
Would not be willing to lynch:
ww, yuma, me
Out of the "willing to lynch", I'm pretty even on all of them for now. Maybe a targeted reread is in the future now that this is my only mafia game.
A Drowned Kernel did probably never get a useful cop result.
I just checked his posts, and found this.
I think that if he had a innocence result on someone, he would place them in 'not willing to lynch'. But There we find WW (scum), yuma (IC) and himself (town).
Would he have claimed with a scum result? I hope so.
He probable targeted Shraeye or faust or was roleblocked.
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tainted could mean semi-sane... meaning maybe he got a town result on WW incorrectly?
I don't know what tainted could mean in this context and probably isn't worth the time to try and figure it out.
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I may be wrong about how my results would look, but can you conceive of how a Thief SK role title is written that makes sense with my result?
Like, "1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief Serial Killer" doesn't work. You could say Thieving SK, but then my result was technically bastard. It'd need to be thieving vanilla, not just thief.
I will say that 1-shot forsaken immune SK is sensible. I don't see how we can reconcile my result wording with a SK, though.
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You wouldn't get "SK" in your result... SK is not a role. It is an alignment. Thief is a role... thus you would get thief...
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Just like you wouldn't get "Town Thief" or "Mafia Thief" You just get thief
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I think we had this argument in the normal vs. RMM thread.
I believe that all roles are roles. So vanilla townie is a role and mafia goon is a role. You strip alignment by calling them both vanilla in results. I never really thought of this in relation to the role of serial killer.
To me, 1-shot BP, for example, is an adjective, a role modifier, not a role. You are a 1-shot BP Townie in Matrix6, where the BP modifies townie.
Anyway, this is all theoretical.
In order to assure the role cop is not an alignment cop, you'd have to decide how to return SK results. Turning "thieving" into "thief" is one way. Just doesn't strike me as right.
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So you are basing your entire read on TA on semantics?
Typical.
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vote: TA
he lied. your result means nothing. I want to lynch him.
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I believe that all roles are roles. So vanilla townie is a role and mafia goon is a role.
Ok... So if you had a role cop in a game where there were mafia goons would you return the result of "goon" to a role cop?
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I think we had this argument in the normal vs. RMM thread.
To me, 1-shot BP, for example, is an adjective, a role modifier, not a role. You are a 1-shot BP Townie in Matrix6, where the BP modifies townie.
And 1-shot BP is a role! How can that not be a role? Mafiascum lists it as a protective and passive ROLE.
Townie is not a role. It is an alignment designation for a player with no role.
Look I get what you are saying, everyone has a "role" because this is a role playing game. We all take on identities. So maybe "role cop" really should be called "power cop" or "night action cop" but it isn't. But that is how it is intended and thus how we need to react to it.
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Caught up.
If I were modding a Serial Killer + Power vs Role Cop scenario, I wouldn't have the Role Cop pull up the SK portion of the role. SK is the alignment, not the role. So I think ash is just being difficult with this. Couldn't you just ask mail-mi?
Plus, "Forsaken Immune?" Why not Bulletproof? It'd be more useful as Town by protecting against a misfire by yuma, the SK, OR Mafia! There is also him lying and the Xerxes thing. So I think that its likely that TA is a SK, but do we want to lynch him?
Alive (7):
Archetype (Town)
yuma (99.9% Town)
XerxesPraelor (Maybe Scum)
xeiron (Most likely Town. If he's alive tomorrow, most likely scum)
AndrewisFTTW (80% Town)
Jimmmmm (Most Likely Scum)
ashersky (Most Likely Scum)
Worst case scenario -
If we mislynch today: We have 3 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Mafia/SK. Mafia win.
If we lynch Mafia today: We have 3 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Town/Town/SK. Whichever scum isn't lynched will win.
If we lynch SK today: We have 2 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Mafia/Town/Town. Mafia win.
So, things look bleak, regardless of who we lynch, if Andrew isn't able to stop a kill. SK could kill Mafia and Mafia kill SK, but that's only likely to happen if we mislynch. Lynching the SK eliminates one of the those kills, but I'm thinking that lynching one of the Mafia may be better. One, or both of them, is in Jimmmmm/ashersky. However, if there's only one and we mislynch, Mafia will most likely win. But, urgh, Xerxes or Xeiron could still be Mafia which throw a wrench into things.
I'm leaning a Mafia lynch so we can get some information, but maybe we already have all the information we can get and just need to get some form of scum lynch so we can get into the next day with one fewer threats? I'm really back and forth, but I think we should lynch one of Jimmmmm/ashersky. If yuma wants a TA lynch, I'll sheep him.
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There's also the WW Redirection situation. yuma's Andrew-possession theory makes a lot of sense though. It removes one potential threat, and gives the Mafia a Roleblocker. Andrew is also a good N1 target since they already know what his power does instead of shooting into the dark.
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Arch can you verify that your role can't be blocked from working on me.... if you are roleblocked does the protection still occur? I am not saying 100% do that, but consider doing it very strongly.
If I am Roleblocked the protection will fail. I specifically asked mail-mi this when Andrew claimed and he said my power was susceptible to Redirection/Roleblocking.
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Alive (7):
Archetype (Town)
yuma (99.9% Town)
XerxesPraelor (Maybe Scum)
xeiron (Most likely Town. If he's alive tomorrow, most likely scum)
AndrewisFTTW (80% Town)
Jimmmmm (Most Likely Scum)
ashersky (Most Likely Scum)
Worst case scenario -
If we mislynch today: We have 3 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Mafia/SK. Mafia win.
If we lynch Mafia today: We have 3 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Town/Town/SK. Whichever scum isn't lynched will win.
If we lynch SK today: We have 2 Deaths that night. That puts us at Mafia/Mafia/Town/Town. Mafia win.
Why so many deaths? Where does the third death come from?
Oh... xeiron. Right. We need to get clarificaiton from him via mail-mi about that before we can decide on anything
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I guess that's what I get for lying on bard vs. thief
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I guess that's what I get for lying on bard vs. thief
yeah well... I don't see why you would do that as town. You certainly have been around for enough games to know lying as town is never good. Your story was meant to trick and it did until ashersky's claim said otherwise... I can't see why town would want to trick the rest of town. Town shouldn't be so fearful of being lynched that they have to lie...
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That and I still think it likely that you targeted xeiron instead of xerxes last night...
And I just don't get why you would target me Night1... Not that I am saying you didn't... you obviously did. Although you didn't steal any of my spears... as I used both my shots.
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I've asked mail-mi for clarification on how my role's results are returned.
The color was "limegreen," btw, which I guess is mail-mi's color, not alignment color.
I still don't think Thief + SK makes much sense as a role...the mafia-only BP does though.
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Only confirmation I got was that I wouldn't learn alignment. I take that to mean my result would not be indicative.
So, I guess he's not cleared.
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Yeah obviously I am caught here, no use drawing it out. Obviously I want to shoot mafia tonight, if you guys keep me alive.
I don't think you should lynch me, I absolutely am shooting for mafia tonight, but yeah I have about 0% chance of winning this game now. I thought I was playing well, but getting targeted by a role cop N1 and getting shot TWICE (yes, I got shot twice, not once N2) kinda put me in a difficult position. I had no idea thieving the dagger (which got my the second shot of forsaken-immune) would be told to Xeiron, once that was revealed I was dead in the water.
If you're going to lynch me now, I get it, but please don't before I can get all my setup speculation out, I have some interesting thoughts / theories.
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Oh, and I killed Witherweaver last night, no idea if Yuma double targeted or if he was the second Forsaken person to shoot me N2.
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but I kinda suspect 2 mafia / SK (me) / other third party (Yuma)
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but I kinda suspect 2 mafia / SK (me) / other third party (Yuma)
I am so totally town!
More Specifics: There will be only 1 scum team, and there may or may not be a third party role like a Serial Killer or Survivor.
Only 1 scum team and "a third party role" not "third party roles"
And happy that I was right. I can't really think of a reason to leave TA alive at this point. I mean sure, he says he is going to shoot for mafia, but not guarantee that he will hit mafia.
Lynching him guarantees one less NK tonight... Hopefully a NK gets blocked or stopped or xeiron doesn't die (that is the most unfortunate thing going on here...)
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Oh, and I killed Witherweaver last night, no idea if Yuma double targeted or if he was the second Forsaken person to shoot me N2.
It must have been a double target. Kinda bummed I wasted it then, would have been useful to shoot you tonight...
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I definitely got shot twice by forsaken people last night, and I can't imagine mafia would shoot me twice in one night. So most obvious solution to me is that I was shot once by mafia, and once by someone else who is forsaken.
I guess forsaken wouldn't be third party though, since I'm not forsaken myself.
If Ash is scum, and a rolecop, he probably definitely knew I was SK N2, right? With potentially 3 mafia alive, would they want to shoot the SK? This could point to Ash being scum.
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Witherweaver has been killed! He was Rahvin, the Diplomat, a Forsaken-aligned Redirector!
But mafia is forsaken... I think you got shot by mafia and then lost a shot because you stole xeiron's dagger...
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Witherweaver has been killed! He was Rahvin, the Diplomat, a Forsaken-aligned Redirector!
But mafia is forsaken... I think you got shot by mafia and then lost a shot because you stole xeiron's dagger...
and we never did get the flavor for that kill to indicate (maybe there would have been no indication...) that it was a double kill.
Who did you kill Night1? shraeye or faust?
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That would be incredibly trollish, to reward me with a shot of forsaken-immune for stealing the dagger, and then immediately take it away for stealing the dagger.
I killed Faust, he had a scum read on me, people with scum reads on me = bad
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That would be incredibly trollish, to reward me with a shot of forsaken-immune for stealing the dagger, and then immediately take it away for stealing the dagger.
I killed Faust, he had a scum read on me, people with scum reads on me = bad
oh... I misunderstood what you were saying then... so you received an immunity for stealing the dagger. Gotcha. Did you get anything as a reward for targeting me? Did you know you would be able to get rewards?
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N2 kill actions that by far make the most sense to me:
TA kills WW
Mafia shoots TA, using 1/2 forsaken-immune shots
Yuma shoots TA, using 2/2 forsaken-immune shots
I have been trying to wrap my head around this all day in my QT, but I just can't think that TWO shots came from mafia because:
1) I think mafia having two shots is very powerful
2) If they had two shots, I highly doubt they'd use them both on the same person
It IS possible WW redirected your shot to me, in which case Jimmmmm is WW's partner. But I probably would have died to your shot if you were town.
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That would be incredibly trollish, to reward me with a shot of forsaken-immune for stealing the dagger, and then immediately take it away for stealing the dagger.
I killed Faust, he had a scum read on me, people with scum reads on me = bad
oh... I misunderstood what you were saying then... so you received an immunity for stealing the dagger. Gotcha. Did you get anything as a reward for targeting me? Did you know you would be able to get rewards?
Yeah, I knew if I stole the dagger, I'd get a second shot of forsaken immunity. I thought you might have the dagger N1, I was wrong, N2 I guessed correctly (and am glad that I did, cause I'd be dead if I didn't).
I also lost my thieving power after stealing the dagger, which was in my PM but I forgot and would have screwed over my (semi) fake claim anyways.
I had no idea that Xeiron would die from me taking the dagger, or that it would be revealed in thread.
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Yuma shoots TA, using 2/2 forsaken-immune shots
Again... I shot WW. I can't be a mystical third, third party. you are the third party. There can only be one.
Why am I arguing with confirmed scum? I don't know...
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Because I was shot twice last night, and mafia usually have one shot, so I think you may have been the one to shoot me last night.
I am doing this for the sake of solving the setup at this point, cause obviously I'm not winning. But guys, really, Yuma may also be scum. If he is, though, he doesn't have any shots left.
If he's scum, there's probably only 1 more mafia out there.
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It IS possible WW redirected your shot to me, in which case Jimmmmm is WW's partner. But I probably would have died to your shot if you were town.
I can't see a situation where WW would redirect my shot. I tried to make it very clear that my only ability was the Dayvig and to keep the ngihtvig completely secret.
Why target someone with a redirector when you don't think they have a role... No I am quite confident that WW targeted Andrew.
Do you think that xeiron is mafia or town? I guess it doens't really matter he is probably going to die anyways unless killing you prevents that.
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Because I was shot twice last night, and mafia usually have one shot, so I think you may have been the one to shoot me last night.
I am doing this for the sake of solving the setup at this point, cause obviously I'm not winning. But guys, really, Yuma may also be scum. If he is, though, he doesn't have any shots left.
If he's scum, there's probably only 1 more mafia out there.
Ok.... Let's go through this again.
You are the SK. There is a mafia faction that I am not a part of. You agree with this yes?
If so, then I am town. Because mail-mi said there can only be 1 mafia faction and only 1 third party. There can't be a fourth party. So stop pretending that it is possible
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Xeiron's 100% town. He is Mat Cauthon or however it's spelled.
I have been pretty honest with my reads (except on Sudgy I think), I believe there's mafia in Jimmm/Arch. Jimmmm's claim is fishiest to me.
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Xeiron's 100% town. He is Mat Cauthon or however it's spelled.
I have been pretty honest with my reads (except on Sudgy I think), I believe there's mafia in Jimmm/Arch. Jimmmm's claim is fishiest to me.
Arch isn't mafia. Guarantee it.
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No I get that.
But from my perspective (which you really have no reason to believe, but hey):
Going into last night, I was 1-shot forsaken immune.
After stealing the dagger, I was 2-shot forsaken immune.
I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
Obviously, mafia shot me once. But where's the second shot from?
It could very well be from you. Knowing that I shot Witherweaver, I know that you didn't have to, so I think you are a likely target for someone who shot me last night.
If it's not you, where did that second shot come from? Do you think I'm making it up?
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Xeiron's 100% town. He is Mat Cauthon or however it's spelled.
I have been pretty honest with my reads (except on Sudgy I think), I believe there's mafia in Jimmm/Arch. Jimmmm's claim is fishiest to me.
Arch isn't mafia. Guarantee it.
And this is 100% based off of his claim?
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No I get that.
But from my perspective (which you really have no reason to believe, but hey):
Going into last night, I was 1-shot forsaken immune.
After stealing the dagger, I was 2-shot forsaken immune.
I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
Obviously, mafia shot me once. But where's the second shot from?
It could very well be from you. Knowing that I shot Witherweaver, I know that you didn't have to, so I think you are a likely target for someone who shot me last night.
If it's not you, where did that second shot come from? Do you think I'm making it up?
I don't know...
Mafia having two independent shots would be overpowered I think.
It is possible you are making it up... You are a SK. But I don't have answers for you, just what I know and what the mod has told us. If you can't trust the mod, then who can you trust?
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You are using wording in the OP for your defense...yes I get what you are saying about there only being 1 third-party but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
This is unlikely probably, but it's one possible explanation for why I was shot twice last night, and the one that requires the least jumps. Maybe mafia have some power-sucking cyborg or something but if thats the case I know nothing about it.
Regardless I am losing any argument so yeah. I am off to bed, goodnight Yuma!
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You are using wording in the OP for your defense...yes I get what you are saying about there only being 1 third-party but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
Nothing is impossible, but if that were the case then it would be an obvious case of moderator lying and this game would immediately be qualified as bastard. But it isn't, as I am town, so of course I am going to use the OP as a defense! Because it is the OP! And you already claimed the SK spot.
Goodnight.
I am also off to bed and will be leaving early tomorrow morning. I won't say we should wait for me to get back--I don't know if I will ahve internet access or not--but maybe waiting (sorry to prolong the inevitable TA) would be best so I can be around to talk some stuff through with people Sunday evening. I will leave my vote where it is.
BUT DO NOT lynch someone else why I am gone. We might lynch someone else when I get back, but wait for me to get back at least...
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Well regardless we can't lynch yuma unless we lynch Arch/Arch gets killed. I'm not so sure we should lynch Arch now that we have his claim. It's probably best to get the SK out of the way, right?
unvote
I'm going to sleep too, goodnight.
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Wow. I feel like an idiot.
vote: TA obviously. Let Yuma hammer, so keep track of votes.
The shots stuff is weird.
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No I get that.
But from my perspective (which you really have no reason to believe, but hey):
Going into last night, I was 1-shot forsaken immune.
After stealing the dagger, I was 2-shot forsaken immune.
I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
Obviously, mafia shot me once. But where's the second shot from?
It could very well be from you. Knowing that I shot Witherweaver, I know that you didn't have to, so I think you are a likely target for someone who shot me last night.
If it's not you, where did that second shot come from? Do you think I'm making it up?
Actually, I thought of a scenario:
Say scum!ash has a N0 head start on his Role Cop. He uses it to investigate Yuma and sees that he has a night vig. On N2, Witherweaver redirects Yuma's kill to TA in addition to their nightkill. I don't find it too far fetched.
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Seems like TA is the lynch today. At first, I thought it'd be a good idea to leave him alive for at least one more night, but I guess if we lynch Mafia today he'd really have no incentive to kill the other. So lynching him now rather than later may be the better move. Though, after playing with TA for long enough, I don't think he'd backstab like that. But I guess if he's really tryin his hardest to win, he would.
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I really think we should try to lynch Mafia today rather than TA. There'll then be two night kills, and if Andrew can stop any one of them, we'll survive, rather that how it would be if we Lynch TA, which would make Andrew need to guess exactly right. How much time do we have?
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I really think we should try to lynch Mafia today rather than TA. There'll then be two night kills, and if Andrew can stop any one of them, we'll survive, rather that how it would be if we Lynch TA, which would make Andrew need to guess exactly right. How much time do we have?
Surely we'll be in a better position to lynch scum Tomorrow than Today, after someone else has been taken out of the lynch pool and/or we have more Night Action results to go off?
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I don't think it's possible for TA to win unless we lynch Mafia and fail to protect someone.
PPE 1: no, we will probably not be in a good position. The Mafia will have us endgamed unless somehow we can protect Andrew.
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The Mafia will have us endgamed unless somehow we can protect Andrew.
Sorry if this has already been stated, but how?
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I don't think it's possible for TA to win unless we lynch Mafia and fail to protect someone.
PPE 1: no, we will probably not be in a good position. The Mafia will have us endgamed unless somehow we can protect Andrew.
You are assuming how many mafia?
We are 8 alive. 1 SK.
Lynch SK, 7 alive, X Mafia. yuma can't die, Andrew can save someone. If mafia get a kill through anyway, we have 6 alive, X mafia. Unless you think there are 3 more mafia, there's no endgaming there.
If we leave TA alive...mislynch and we are at 7 alive, 1 SK, X mafia. Worst case there is 2 town kills and 5 alive with SK + X scum and town's definitely done.
We have to remove the scum nightkill from this equation. Yeah, TA might be shooting for scum, but if he shoots wrong?
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I refuse to believe that TA was shot two times by scum last night.
1. Why would scum have two NKs?
2. If they had, why use both on the same player!? Did they know he was bulletproof? They could have known if Ash is scum, but it would still be better to kill two townies and get TA lynched.
No, I think TA is lying. He still have a 1-shot forsaken-immunity left.
Because of this we should lynch him. We cannot count on mafia to kill him.
Besides it is risky to leave him alive.
Worst case is we lynch town, and have three more town dead during night. That leaves 2 mafia + SK + 1 town left. Not what we want.
Lynch TA, and worst case we have 3 town and 2 mafia left. Classic LYLO situation that should be possible to win for us.
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I think Xexres is town, because of the last part of his role:
That's a lot of text. Sadly my extra thing isn't that powerful. If someone is at a "meeting" with me and I send a message to them, I become mod-confirmed town to them.
Xeiron said he did not get my alignment confirmed to him.
Obviously, He is town if it is true. Scum will never be mod-confirmed as town (outside of bastard games).
If it is fake, Xerxes must have been planning it for a long time. Starting with asking if anyone knew of a meeting D1, and then asking me in his letter N" if he was confirmed town to me. I thought it was a weird question then, but everything makes sense now. It is probably true.
The only question is then. Who is on a meeting with Xerxes? If someone has something in their flavor, now is the time to mention. If I should make a guess, Yuma and Andrew, would be first in my mind.
If xerxes could target yuma tonight, and be IC tomorrow, that would be exellent. Andrew is not as good a choice, as he will likely be nightkilled.
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No I get that.
But from my perspective (which you really have no reason to believe, but hey):
Going into last night, I was 1-shot forsaken immune.
After stealing the dagger, I was 2-shot forsaken immune.
I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
Obviously, mafia shot me once. But where's the second shot from?
It could very well be from you. Knowing that I shot Witherweaver, I know that you didn't have to, so I think you are a likely target for someone who shot me last night.
If it's not you, where did that second shot come from? Do you think I'm making it up?
Actually, I thought of a scenario:
Say scum!ash has a N0 head start on his Role Cop. He uses it to investigate Yuma and sees that he has a night vig. On N2, Witherweaver redirects Yuma's kill to TA in addition to their nightkill. I don't find it too far fetched.
Three problems with this theory.
- It would require both Ash and jimm to be scum. (Not really a problem, I think that is pretty likely)
- It would require ash to have a N=-shot. (Less likely to be true)
- It would require TA to be bulletproof against all types kills, not only to forsaken-kills. (That is the hardest to believe. TA would cleared up that by now if Ash was lying about his role.)
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I don't have a meeting in my text... unfortunately.
xeiron did you ever ask mail-mi about killing TA and getting your dagger back?
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No I get that.
But from my perspective (which you really have no reason to believe, but hey):
Going into last night, I was 1-shot forsaken immune.
After stealing the dagger, I was 2-shot forsaken immune.
I am now 0-shot forsaken immune.
Obviously, mafia shot me once. But where's the second shot from?
It could very well be from you. Knowing that I shot Witherweaver, I know that you didn't have to, so I think you are a likely target for someone who shot me last night.
If it's not you, where did that second shot come from? Do you think I'm making it up?
Actually, I thought of a scenario:
Say scum!ash has a N0 head start on his Role Cop. He uses it to investigate Yuma and sees that he has a night vig. On N2, Witherweaver redirects Yuma's kill to TA in addition to their nightkill. I don't find it too far fetched.
Three problems with this theory.
- It would require both Ash and jimm to be scum. (Not really a problem, I think that is pretty likely)
- It would require ash to have a N=-shot. (Less likely to be true)
- It would require TA to be bulletproof against all types kills, not only to forsaken-kills. (That is the hardest to believe. TA would cleared up that by now if Ash was lying about his role.)
Oh duh. I forgot about that last bulletpoint. Forsaken must of had an extra kill or something.
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maybe they have a strongman that somehow also uses up another kill? Unlikely but possible.
But mostly I think xeiron? is right that TA just isn't telling the truth (about loss of shots, not gaining... I think he still has a 1-shot) in hopes of staying alive through the night and then maybe staying alive the next day.
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I have no text about a meeting. Intent to hammer although I have no idea what the vote count is and I wont be on this computer for long.
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Oh yeah I also know who another mafia is, if you want me to shoot him tonight, you shouldn't lynch me.
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Oh yeah I also know who another mafia is, if you want me to shoot him tonight, you shouldn't lynch me.
Nice try.
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My PM also says they'Re my friends, so if you know who Egwene's friends are, I will probably send it to you. Also, it's plural, so there should be more than one person who is it.
TA: how would you know. I get you don't want to tell us who it is, or you'll get lynched, but why would you know who scum is? I think you're lying.
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Okay, I looked up the flavor, and I'm going to target either Andrew or Ashersky tonight, whose characters seem to be friends of mine. I feel so stupid for not asking everyone to flavor claim immediately.
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TA really looks like he's lying.
Vote: twistedarcher
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Okay, I looked up the flavor, and I'm going to target either Andrew or Ashersky tonight, whose characters seem to be friends of mine. I feel so stupid for not asking everyone to flavor claim immediately.
I think you should target yuma. Egwene and Aviendha are friends in the flavor. Besides Yuma are the only one that can be expected to live through the night and be trusted to confirm you as town if he got that result.
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Doesn't look like anywhere close to hammering.
vote: TA
PPE: 1
Tomorrow we lynch Xeiron, no matter what excuses he brings up. He's lying above here, as far as I can tell, and didn't confirm me as town despite being one of the group I would expect to do that.
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Of course, if you're telling the truth, you'll die, and we won't need to lynch you.
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I don't have a meeting in my text... unfortunately.
xeiron did you ever ask mail-mi about killing TA and getting your dagger back?
Mail-mi said that I get no extra information outside of what my pm already states.
My pm tells me that I die the night after I loose my dagger. It does not mentions if it possible to get it back.
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yuma, please don't get fooled by that possible excuse. Google "wheel of time wiki egwene" and look in the page. Aviendha is never mentioned, while Andrew's, ADK's, and Ash's characters are mentioned as friends .
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Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand, Perrin, and Mat all grew up in the same village. HOWEVER, Elayne, Nynaeve, and Aviendha would be her closest "friends". At least as far as I've gotten in the book.
I'm getting back on the road now. I'll check back whenever I can get to another computer.
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So why is Aviendha never mentioned in the wiki?
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Do we have anyone who can protect Andrew?
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Vote Count 3.3
Archetype (1): Twistedarcher,
Twistedarcher (3): yuma, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Not Voting (4): Jimmmmm, xeiron, Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
Xeiron looks wan. He coughs, and it sounds wet and sickly.
Of note:
My computer is on the fritz and not usable right now. VLA for a while.
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So why is Aviendha never mentioned in the wiki?
Who knows.
Egwene is mentioned in Aviendhas wiki.
"Aviendha first met Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand and Nynaeve al'Meara on their way to Tear. (...) There, Aviendha befriends the three women further, especially Egwene and Elayne, who she begins to call her near-sisters according to Aiel custom."
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Aviendha
[Warning, the link contains massive spoilers from the books]
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I totally was shot two times last night. Town if you lose the game because you didn't believe this, I will not feel sorry for you. I was 1-shot -- gained the second -- and lost both last night. Trust me, I went over this like 5 times with mail-mi, it's what happened.
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Game is dead, Yuma scum is cool letting me take the fall for him. Don't lynch meeee
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I promise I am 100% not lying. I was shot TWICE. Once by mafia once by Yuma. He has no more shots though so he's not a priority.
Ash you are a consiracu theorist what do you think about my theory.
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Lynch me D3, Lynch Jimmm D4, Lynch yuma d5, town wins.
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Lynch me D3, Lynch Jimmm D4, Lynch yuma d5, town wins.
That's a silly plan.
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Vote Count 3.3
Archetype (1): Twistedarcher,
Twistedarcher (3): yuma, ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Not Voting (4): Jimmmmm, xeiron, Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
Xeiron looks wan. He coughs, and it sounds wet and sickly.
Of note:
My computer is on the fritz and not usable right now. VLA for a while.
36 hours to deadline.
I suggest at least one more vote for l-1. Dead lining out would be bad.
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Vote: Twistedarcher
L-1
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My reads:
Town: yuma, xerxes, andrew and me
Sk: ta
Mafia: jimm, archetype, ashersky
Do anyone feel a need to discuss who is mafia today?
If not I will hammer.
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Mafia: jimm, archetype, ashersky
Do you mean you think this is the remainder of the Mafia team?
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Just hammer.
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Also, we lynch xeiron tomorrow.
I think you're town, but if you survive I'm sure you're scum.
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Also, we lynch xeiron tomorrow.
I think you're town, but if you survive I'm sure you're scum.
What the heck does that mean, and how the heck does it help?
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It means that if he ends up surviving, he's much more likely to be scum lying about his role. It helps because pre-committing is a good way of getting out of stupid situations like those that might come up if he survives and convinces everyone that because he got his knife back, he survived and wasn't lying, which I think is very implausible.
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It means that if he ends up surviving, he's much more likely to be scum lying about his role. It helps because pre-committing is a good way of getting out of stupid situations like those that might come up if he survives and convinces everyone that because he got his knife back, he survived and wasn't lying, which I think is very implausible.
So you're telling scum, "If you leave him alive we'll lynch him"?
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He claims that his role is such that he'll die tonight.
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He claims that his role is such that he'll die tonight.
Ah gotcha.
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No need to drag this on.
vote: Twistedarcher
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Ok. I was shot twice. Not lying, please use this info.
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Thread Locked!
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Vote Count 3.FINAL
Archetype (1): Twistedarcher,
Twistedarcher (5): yuma, ashersky, XerxesPraelor, Jimmmmm, xeiron
Not Voting (2): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW
With 8 alive it took 5 to lynch.
"He HEE he HE he..." Twistedarcher said in the background, wringing his hands. "I got it! I go-ot it!"
yuma turned around and looked slantwise at him. "Are you okay, TA?"
"Mhe he he yeah I'm fine..." he said. "Absolutely, perfectly perfect!"
Soon, the whole group was looking at the crazy dancing Twistedarcher. "Are you sure you're all right?" XerxesPraelor said.
"Oh I'm alright..." he said mischievously. "I've just gotta wait til the sun sets then I get to kill all of you!"
xeiron gasped, then coughed. "What?" at the same time ashersky yelled "Get him!"
After much struggling, they got Twistedarcher up to mail-mi. He took the Oath Rod and started to gnaw on it. "Say the Oath..." mail-mi prompted.
Twistedarcher laughed. "I vow cho thay no wor- tha ith unchoo." He took the Oath Rod out of his mouth. "I AM a Darkfriend. YIPPEEE!" And then he stabbed himself with his own dagger.
Twistedarcher has been lynched. He was the Serial-killer-aligned Padan Fain, Mordeth's Tainted Darkfriend, a 1-shot Forsaken-Immune Thieving Serial Killer.
Night 3 start!
Night 3 ends on April 28 at 11 o'clock PM forum time (note: night is shorter because I'll be asleep at this time on monday)
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~25 minutes to day!
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The sun rose on the meeting grounds. All seemed well.
Until people started filing out of their tents. Only 5 people came out: ashersky, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, and AndrewisFTTW.
ashersky ran into xeiron's tent, yuma into XerxesPraelor's, and Jimmmmm into mail-mi's. Inside xeiron's tent was his body, ghostly pale and lifeless. XerxesPraelor was also dead, lying in his own blood, and mail-mi looked like he had died of cardiac amyloidosis.
Archetype looked solemn. "And then there were five."
Xeiron has died. He was the Light-aligned Matrim (Mat) Cauthon, the Lucky Ta'veren, a Tainted Semi-Ascetic Townie
XerxesPraelor has died. He was the Light-alinged Egwene al'Vere, the Dreamwalker, a Semi-Innocent Mailman
mail-mi has died. He was Robert Jordan, the mod.
DAY FOUR START!
THREAD UNLOCKED
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Vote Count 4.0
Not Voting (5): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW, ashersky, Jimmmmm, yuma
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT
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Ok... well I was about to say that xerxes if def town... he sent me his message last night, but alas, he is dead.
Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
so that leaves ash and Jimmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if both are scum. One certainly is maybe paired with Andrew...
I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
I don't think arch has anything to claim night action wise
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poor mail-mi... dying before the end of the game. Hopefully the back up mod is just as good as the original mod (I hear from some that he is even better!!!)
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And we are pretty much likely in lylo... so careful with your votes!
If anyone votes for me or Arch I will consider that an admission of guilt under any circumstance!!! but even then, no voting for a few days here even if you think you know something 100%... let's take out time with this.
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Andrew survives again...people need to listen to me from the beginning.
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I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
Really? I'm not likely to catch anyone in a lie if I claim first...
As it is it doesn't matter; I tracked Arch for no result.
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Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
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Why kill xerxes? That's a weird choice.
I mean, you have claimed super JK, claimed tracker, confirmed rolecop. Kill the claimed mailman? Probably because the stronger role claimers are scum. Like I said from D1.
Scumslips reign supreme! I will lord this over everyone's head forever and ever.
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I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
I'm in full agreement here.
In fact, vote: andrew. Scum doesn't get quickhammered.
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Scumslips reign supreme! I will lord this over everyone's head forever and ever.
Hey, I agreed with you.
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I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
Really? I'm not likely to catch anyone in a lie if I claim first...
As it is it doesn't matter; I tracked Arch for no result.
Archetype is what he claims, plus another thing which I believe is why yuma is so convinced he's town.
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Basically, it's POE between Andrew and Jimmmmm, with only the slightestestest possibility (like .000009) that yuma has played us this entire time.
Like, TA could have kill WW (as he claims), mafia could have shot TA (BP), and that's it. We don't have confirmation that yuma could shoot.
But if he's playing us like that with his claim on D1 all the way to now, he deserves the win and foreverMVP.
So it's Andrew or Jimmmmm (or both). I think 2 mafia + SK is as likely as 3 mafia + SK in a 13 player game. See C9++ for reference.
3-man team means lylo now, 2-man teams means not. Definitely treat it as lylo.
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Scumslips reign supreme! I will lord this over everyone's head forever and ever.
Hey, I agreed with you.
I won't lord it over your head. Just over the scumslip naysayers.
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I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
I'm in full agreement here.
In fact, vote: andrew. Scum doesn't get quickhammered.
unvote right now!
RIGHT NOW!
Or I will /out out of monsters university...
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I look forward to Andrew's claim.
unvote
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I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
I'm in full agreement here.
In fact, vote: andrew. Scum doesn't get quickhammered.
unvote right now!
RIGHT NOW!
Or I will /out out of monsters university...
You HATE blackmail, dude. Not cool.
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I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
I'm in full agreement here.
In fact, vote: andrew. Scum doesn't get quickhammered.
unvote right now!
RIGHT NOW!
Or I will /out out of monsters university...
I hope you're not being serious...
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Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
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I have learned in this game that blackmail is a fine and useful tool for town.
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Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
I get what you are thinking. I'm not as convinced as you are, but I agree we aren't lynching Arch today.
But man, if you are scum, playing this insanely manipulatively game since D1 claim, complaining about blackmail, then using blackmail, man. I guess we'll all learn our lesson.
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I have learned in this game that blackmail is a fine and useful tool for town.
If you were serious, I agree with ash. Especially if you're not sure of his alignment.
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ash I am fully willing to rethink my stance on andrew. I really am. I am going to give it a lot of thought, set aside any preconceived notions I had before and analyze everything from scratch.
But to do that I am going to need you to keep your cool and keep your vote in your pocket for a few days.
Thanks for unvoting. I reacted strongly because I needed you to react immediately. I don't know what could happen...
Actually really it was probably unnecessary. If andrew is town then you and jimmmm are scum. Arch won't quickhammer since he is town... but regardless, just know that I am going to think this through and I will listen to you.
Just give me the time to do it.
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Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
Regardless, unless there's an extremely good reason to do otherwise, we need to lynch Andrew Today.
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We're at 5 players. We're all able to POE this to a few each.
I'm basically positive that there is scum in {Andrew + Jimmmm}. Possibly two, sure, but definitely one.
I GREATLY prefer to lynch Andrew, as he's been scummy since D1.
I'm basically positive that there is town in {Arch + yuma}. Possibly two, sure, but definitely one.
I don't want to lynch from this pool.
I'm pretty sure we can all do this.
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Like I said I will consider it. I will look things over. But right now I don't see a compelling reason to kill him over ashersky or you.
ash do you have a result to claim?
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I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
Really? I'm not likely to catch anyone in a lie if I claim first...
As it is it doesn't matter; I tracked Arch for no result.
Archetype is what he claims, plus another thing which I believe is why yuma is so convinced he's town.
Are you claiming to have Role Copped me?
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Might be worth re-reading Xerxes. I had JUST re-read him on D3, so you can refer to my summary post.
As far as Andrew...
My case stands from D1, plus D2, and D3.
I'll add that he's now survived three nights and five possible scum kills. That's three nights of the mafia existing and two nights of the SK existing. He can't protect himself, and that's the one thing no one has claimed to be able to do (except Arch on yuma). At some point, the "why is the strong, claimed PR still alive?" question becomes very relevant.
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I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
Really? I'm not likely to catch anyone in a lie if I claim first...
As it is it doesn't matter; I tracked Arch for no result.
Archetype is what he claims, plus another thing which I believe is why yuma is so convinced he's town.
Nevermind... saw this.
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I would like Jimmmmm to claim night actions first, followed by ashersky and then Andrew...
Really? I'm not likely to catch anyone in a lie if I claim first...
As it is it doesn't matter; I tracked Arch for no result.
Archetype is what he claims, plus another thing which I believe is why yuma is so convinced he's town.
Nevermind... saw this.
Yep.
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ash I am fully willing to rethink my stance on andrew. I really am. I am going to give it a lot of thought, set aside any preconceived notions I had before and analyze everything from scratch.
But to do that I am going to need you to keep your cool and keep your vote in your pocket for a few days.
Thanks for unvoting. I reacted strongly because I needed you to react immediately. I don't know what could happen...
Actually really it was probably unnecessary. If andrew is town then you and jimmmm are scum.
Are you sure there are 2 scum left? Admittedly 2+1 in 13 seems pretty few. So you believe that regardless 2 of me, ash and Andrew are scum?
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ooook. So here are my reads:
Yuma is so Town. I've had a Town read on him from D1, and would be very surprised if he were scum. And even if he were, there's still another scum to lynch.
That leaves Jimmmmm/Andrew/ashersky. We will ONLY be lynching from this pool today. I think both remaining Mafia are found there and I have a pretty good guess as to which they are, but I'll wait until Andrew claims his action.
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@Jimmmm:
Right now I am going with the assumption that there are 2, yes. If we lynch one and win. Awesome. But for now I think we should all assume that there are 2 scum left alive.
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Are you sure there are 2 scum left? Admittedly 2+1 in 13 seems pretty few. So you believe that regardless 2 of me, ash and Andrew are scum?
I am not convinced, actually. One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch. 2+1 in 13 is normal; think of 3 mafia in 13 players in a non-SK C9++, or the 2 mafia + 1 SK setup.
If there are two mafia left, we're in lylo and we have to lynch correctly here.
If there is one mafia left, we're not in lylo, and we have another day (with one or two less townies).
We can't bank on one, though, so we have to play as if there are two. But I don't think it's good to go, well 2 out of these 3 are scum, so 66% chance woo! We need to be finding the 1 in 3 to be sure. Finding the partner is tomorrow's job.
Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.
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Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.
Another thing that's odd about Andrew. He can roleblock anyone he wants, right? Why did we both get results? It points to one of us being Andrew's partner, possibly.
The nexus of all this is still Andrew. If he's alive for tomorrow, he roleblocks whoever he wants and kills anyone.
Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?
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Yes, ash is right. I am far more interested right now in looking at interactions of players with WW than interactions with the remaining alive players as we don't know if there is 1 or 2 left alive. So looking for the one rather than the two is important, but remembering that there could be 2 alive for lylo purposes in the back of our minds.
anyways, I am off for the night. Thanks for unvoting ash, I promise I will give this the attention it deserves. Won't be a problem really since I am dead everywhere else...
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Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.
Another thing that's odd about Andrew. He can roleblock anyone he wants, right? Why did we both get results? It points to one of us being Andrew's partner, possibly.
The nexus of all this is still Andrew. If he's alive for tomorrow, he roleblocks whoever he wants and kills anyone.
Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?
Another thought -- if Andrew is the only remaining mafia, and mafia can't use their power and kill the same night, that fits the narrative for one death and all PRs getting results.
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One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch.
Strongly disagree. More investigative roles means a stronger scum team. The more investigative roles there are, the more likely they are to eliminate an entire faction. That's why some SKs are Ninja!
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One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch.
Strongly disagree. More investigative roles means a stronger scum team. The more investigative roles there are, the more likely they are to eliminate an entire faction. That's why some SKs are Ninja!
Unless scum have lots of Redirecting/Godfathering/Ninjaing, in which case investigative roles have a lot of potential for confusion.
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Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?
Hmm, I'm not sure how closely I can go into the wording of the PMs... I'll check with mail-mi.
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Ok. I just got home a couple hours ago after being out of town for about two weeks and being without a phone for about a week. So sorry about my absence. Also because of this, I submitted my night action an hour or so late and I'm not sure if it got through.
My night action was doctoring Jimm but at this point Jimm and ash are the only ones I would lynch. If yuma is scum and Arch is telling the truth about his role, that's game. So I'm not even going to go there. I like how ash's argument for me being scum is now "he's still alive" as if the same couldn't be said about him. That said, nobody else has claimed any other doctor role besides Arch, and his role is technically Seraph Knight. I don't think me claiming to have a powerful role is any argument about me being scum anyway.
I also remember right after I claimed Jimm and ash had a little back and forth, with ash first asking me to elaborate on my role and then criticizing Jimm for doing the same thing. I knew something was up with one or both of them at that moment and it now makes perfect sense.
I'll do some rereading tomorrow if only to look for more evidence but I think we need to lynch ash here.
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Ok. I just got home a couple hours ago after being out of town for about two weeks and being without a phone for about a week. So sorry about my absence. Also because of this, I submitted my night action an hour or so late and I'm not sure if it got through.
My night action was doctoring Jimm but at this point Jimm and ash are the only ones I would lynch. If yuma is scum and Arch is telling the truth about his role, that's game. So I'm not even going to go there. I like how ash's argument for me being scum is now "he's still alive" as if the same couldn't be said about him. That said, nobody else has claimed any other doctor role besides Arch, and his role is technically Seraph Knight. I don't think me claiming to have a powerful role is any argument about me being scum anyway.
I also remember right after I claimed Jimm and ash had a little back and forth, with ash first asking me to elaborate on my role and then criticizing Jimm for doing the same thing. I knew something was up with one or both of them at that moment and it now makes perfect sense.
I'll do some rereading tomorrow if only to look for more evidence but I think we need to lynch ash here.
Resigned scum is resigned.
No, seriously, you sound so caught.
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Why doctor Jimmmmm? And then put him in the lynch category?
-
Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.
Why doctor Jimmmmm? And then put him in the lynch category?
Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.
I'm going to sleep, goodnight.
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Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.
Why doctor Jimmmmm? And then put him in the lynch category?
Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.
I'm going to sleep, goodnight.
Why didn't you roleblock your biggest scum read? Or any scum read? That's my point, more than protecting Jimmmm. Town's best play is trying to stop the NK. At this point in the game, you should have been blocking, if you were telling the truth. Doctoring arch/Yuma was maaaaybe a defensible move, but doc jimmmmm over blocking me or jimmmmm or any purported scum read? That's indefensible, from a town POV.
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So... One of me and Andrew (Andrew) has to be scum right?
Night 2 Andrew Doctored yuma, and yuma killed Witherweaver. But I targeted Andrew's Jailkeeper, meaning that Andrew also Roleblocked yuma, but Witherweaver still died. Which means Andrew (or I) is lying.
<b>Vote: Andrew</b>
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So... One of me and Andrew (Andrew) has to be scum right?
Night 2 Andrew Doctored yuma, and yuma killed Witherweaver. But I targeted Andrew's Jailkeeper, meaning that Andrew also Roleblocked yuma, but Witherweaver still died. Which means Andrew (or I) is lying.
<b>Vote: Andrew</b>
No, it doesn't. If WW targeted me that means he redirected my doctor/roleblock to whoever he wanted, which could've been yuma. But if it wasn't yuma then TA show WW like he said he did. We went over this already.
Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum? You're totally dismissing ash.
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Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.
Why doctor Jimmmmm? And then put him in the lynch category?
Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.
I'm going to sleep, goodnight.
Why didn't you roleblock your biggest scum read? Or any scum read? That's my point, more than protecting Jimmmm. Town's best play is trying to stop the NK. At this point in the game, you should have been blocking, if you were telling the truth. Doctoring arch/Yuma was maaaaybe a defensible move, but doc jimmmmm over blocking me or jimmmmm or any purported scum read? That's indefensible, from a town POV.
That's exactly what I was trying to do. I'm sorry you thought roleblocking was the best way to achieve that but I didn't think so. Again, saying my claimed night action is a lie is not an argument.
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Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum?
...because the game isn't over.
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Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum?
...because the game isn't over.
And ash is cleared because....?
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No, it doesn't. If WW targeted me that means he redirected my doctor/roleblock to whoever he wanted
You're right. <b>Unvote</b> for now.
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Vote Count 4.1
Not Voting (5): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, yuma, ashersky
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT
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A quick scan looks like me and Jimmmmm in the Andrew camp and Andrew in the ashersky camp, with arch leaning either way and yuma holding off.
Arch/yuma, what are you looking to get out of today? I can keep repeating the same cases on Andrew over and over, but you've read all those. I know you both need to re-read, but if there's an angle we're missing, might as well explore it while we're waiting.
Since my XP re-read on D3, not sure there was much added to the game from that perspective. Xeiron's death doesn't tell us much of anything except he wasn't lying. Did he have any strong reads? At least we'd know they were honest.
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Updating xeiron's list:
Andrew - Nynaeve - Split Jailkeeper
N1 - Roleblocked TA
N2 - Doctored yuma
N3 - Doctored Jimmmmm
yuma - Aviendha - JOAT Vig
D2 - Shot ADK
N2 - Shot WW
Archetype - Moiraine - Seraph Knight - 1-Shot Permanent Doctor thing
N1 - Permanently doctors yuma
ashersky - Perrin Aybara - Role Cop
N1 - Targeted TA - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N2 - Targeted Jimm - no result
N3 - Investigated Arch - confirmed claim
Jimmmmm - ? - Tracker
N1 - Tracked shraeye - nobody
N2 - Tracked Witherweaver - targeted Andrew
N3 - Tracked Arch - nobody
___________Dead_Players:_____________
Sudgy - Elayne Trankand - a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)
Lynced D1
A Drowned Kernel - Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn - a Tainted Cop
N1 - Targeted ??
Dayvigged D2
Faust - Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw - Viewer (Voyeur).
N1 - targeted ??
Killed N1
Shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.
N1 - Did not commute
Killed N1
Witherweaver - Rahvin, the Diplomat - a Forsaken-aligned Redirector
N1 - Targeted ??
N2 - Targeted Andrew
Killed N2
Twistedarcher - Thomdril Merrilin - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N1 - Targeted yuma / Killed faust
N2 - Targeted Xerxespraelor / Killed witherweaver
Xeiron - Mat Cauthon - Tainted Anti-Ascetic Townie
Immune against night action using the one power
Died N3
Xerxespraelor - Egwene - Mailman
N1 - Sent message to shraeye
N2 - Sent message to Xeiron
N3 - Sent message to yuma
Killed N3
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WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would still know that WW targeted me.
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Jimmmmm never flavor claimed, I guess.
So Andrew claims to have blocked TA, who killed faust anyway.
Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.
Andrew claims to have doctored his 2nd highest scum read.
Yeah, that all looks great. He of course has the cover of a scum player who flipped redirector, and has claimed a role that changes if he's targeted.
Here's a scum narrative for you: what if he does have a role like that, and a partner who is a redirector? How about you have your partner direct you where you want to have whatever action to take happen, to ensure it happens? It's like a trade off, where the partner can't redirect town but you get a stronger scum power for Andrew. Does that fit any flavor in the books? Working together to do magic or something? Regardless, he claims to have been targeting all kinds of stuff in the middle of all the action the first two nights, and then when the redirector is dead, all he did was doctor someone who was his 2nd highest scum read and probably unlikely to be killed.
Let's think this through again. He DOCTORED his 2ND HIGHEST SCUM READ. Also, in the list of "going to die tonight" people, where does Jimmmmm fall at the end of yesterday? I mean, we have basically IC yuma, we have claimed bodyguard guy Arch protecting him--so one or the other makes sense to protect. We had xerxes who claimed he would be confirmed town today if he lived. Why protect Jimmmmm ahead of any of those three?
I get it, I'm your biggest scumread. Block me, then. But you don't doc me, anyway. So your choices were: yuma, arch, xeiron, xerxes, Jimmmm. I have to think that Jimmmmm comes 4th on that list to protect for any town doctor. Xeiron is probably dead anyway, so he stays at the bottom.
So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector. But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.
And we have an N3 claim completely different from his thinking on N1/N2, which fits with not having his redirector buddy to help him anymore. And he targeted the second least sensible person to target.
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WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would still know that WW targeted me.
I just posted, which answers this. Yes, I absolutely think there are situations/setups/roles/etc. in a closed RMM that would have a scum redirector targeting his scum partner to do stuff.
Like, how cool would this be? A Scum Roleblocker who is only a Roleblocker if he is targeted by someone else. Otherwise, he's just a Doctor. And then a partner who is a Scum Redirector who can target someone and decide who they target. Hey, that works out really well!
So yes, WW could absolutely target you, his partner. Plus, makes sense that you can use the "why would he target his partner" argument today.
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Everything you've said is either blatantly false or ridiculously misleading. I wouldnt've expected anything less.
I don't have time to respond right now. Maybe later.
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Quick thought:
Why did scum kill shraeye N1? He was barely posting at all. Could it be that he suspected ash of being scum?
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Could it be because he suspected ash is what I meant.
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Could it be because he suspected ash is what I meant.
The "X was killed for suspecting Y" argument is always brought up by scum using it to make a point. The actual argument should be "Z killed X because he suspecting Y and now we can use that to mislynch Y".
As for your question, I don't really know. I could say "because shraeye supported the scumslip argument" as a reason you killed him, but hey, I didn't include that in my case because it isn't really a good point.
My gut says PR hunting -- maybe he slipped something on D1? It's RMM, so everyone has a "role" anyway, but who knows what scum is after, other than scum?
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The actual argument should be "Z killed X because he suspecting Y and now we can use that to mislynch Y".
Also, Z = Andrew, for those who like math.
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Two more quick thoughts:
1) ash is an experienced enough player to know a flimsy argument when he sees one. How come ALL of his arguments are flimsy? It looks so fake to me.
2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?
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Two more quick thoughts:
1) ash is an experienced enough player to know a flimsy argument when he sees one. How come ALL of his arguments are flimsy? It looks so fake to me.
2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?
You can't say "ash's arguments are flimsy" without showing how they are flimsy, man.
I laid out a scum narrative based on events and claims. That's not flismy, that's making a case. Remember, this game is a matter of taking what bits of information we have and forming a complete picture correctly. It's like hangman.
You have _N__E_ _S _C_M an you have to figure out what it spells. My argument is that the most likely scenario is that it says "ANDREW IS SCUM." You may have a different explanation, but I have a hard time coming up with one.
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First of all, that list you so casually credited to Xeiron was actually my list. Xeiron added the dead players. Now onto your flimsy arguments.
So Andrew claims to have blocked TA, who killed faust anyway.
This proves nothing. WW was a redirector.
Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.
Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.
Andrew claims to have doctored his 2nd highest scum read.
No. I doctored a town read at the time. Once Xeiron and XP died, he became a scum read. I said this already. I'm sick of repeating myself.
Yeah, that all looks great. He of course has the cover of a scum player who flipped redirector, and has claimed a role that changes if he's targeted.
This proves nothing.
Here's a scum narrative for you: what if he does have a role like that, and a partner who is a redirector? How about you have your partner direct you where you want to have whatever action to take happen, to ensure it happens? It's like a trade off, where the partner can't redirect town but you get a stronger scum power for Andrew. Does that fit any flavor in the books? Working together to do magic or something? Regardless, he claims to have been targeting all kinds of stuff in the middle of all the action the first two nights, and then when the redirector is dead, all he did was doctor someone who was his 2nd highest scum read and probably unlikely to be killed.
Unlikely to be killed? How do you figure that? Jimm claimed tracker and XP claimed mailman. Why would scum pick mailman over tracker?
Let's think this through again. He DOCTORED his 2ND HIGHEST SCUM READ.
Still wrong.
Also, in the list of "going to die tonight" people, where does Jimmmmm fall at the end of yesterday? I mean, we have basically IC yuma, we have claimed bodyguard guy Arch protecting him--so one or the other makes sense to protect. We had xerxes who claimed he would be confirmed town today if he lived. Why protect Jimmmmm ahead of any of those three?
I explained this already too. The whole game (the WHOLE game) I've been answering questions BEFORE you ask them. Do you have any idea how annoying that is?
I get it, I'm your biggest scumread. Block me, then. But you don't doc me, anyway. So your choices were: yuma, arch, xeiron, xerxes, Jimmmm. I have to think that Jimmmmm comes 4th on that list to protect for any town doctor. Xeiron is probably dead anyway, so he stays at the bottom.
See above.
So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector. But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.
Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.
And we have an N3 claim completely different from his thinking on N1/N2, which fits with not having his redirector buddy to help him anymore. And he targeted the second least sensible person to target.
It was pretty sensible to me, I'm sorry you didn't see it that way. This is the third time in this post that you've made this "argument" and it's just as flimsy as the first time.
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I don't think you mean "flimsy" man. Really.
You have Jimmmmm as your 2nd highest scum read right now. That's not in any way "flimsy" right? And you are using him as your defense?
Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.
Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.
So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector. But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.
Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.
Two of your defenses to my points are saying "look, scumread jimmmmm says I'm nice!" Is he scum or not? If he's scum, how are his claims proof you are town?
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Meanwhile, all you have is "ashersky is a meanie head" as far as your case goes.
Feel free to be annoyed, bothered, upset, etc. all day. It has zero to do with my alignment, and it isn't a case. Ask yuma, who's in this game, if how YOU feel about ME has any bearing on if I'm scum or town. I irritate people all day as either.
This is a game and it gets heated and if you can't take it, it doesn't make me scum.
Thing is, it normally wouldn't make you scum either. Except you aren't super angry like town. Look at how mcmc went down when he was mislynched at lylo to give Axxle the win in M40. That's how town gets upset. You are just too calm and collected while trying to seem upset with my "flimsy" arguments.
So I'm pretty sure you aren't actually irritated at all. You just want to get the attention off of you and onto a mislynch.
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ash maybe you answered this already but I do have a question...
I see your case on andrew and will look at it more fully soon. However, right now you are saying we should try and find the one out of three. I agree. But I do not see you considering at Jimmmmm at all. Is it just that you see your case so convincing on Andrew that you don't need to look at Jimmmmm?
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2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?
People have considered it. Don't worry about that. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town. Do you think I am town?
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Meanwhile, all you have is "ashersky is a meanie head" as far as your case goes.
Feel free to be annoyed, bothered, upset, etc. all day. It has zero to do with my alignment, and it isn't a case. Ask yuma, who's in this game, if how YOU feel about ME has any bearing on if I'm scum or town. I irritate people all day as either.
This is a game and it gets heated and if you can't take it, it doesn't make me scum.
Thing is, it normally wouldn't make you scum either. Except you aren't super angry like town. Look at how mcmc went down when he was mislynched at lylo to give Axxle the win in M40. That's how town gets upset. You are just too calm and collected while trying to seem upset with my "flimsy" arguments.
So I'm pretty sure you aren't actually irritated at all. You just want to get the attention off of you and onto a mislynch.
ash I do feel like Andrew is bringing up valid points. And all you are doing is ignoring those valid comments and focusing on the AtE--yes there is some and maybe it is scummy, I don't know yet--rather than addressing the points themselves. That is going to make anyone frustrated.
I am not interested in talking about "seeming upset" or "faking emotions" or accusations of "being a meanie." I am interested in the arguments and the points, nothing more. This doesn't mean I have made up my mind either way... I still am. I am just trying to work through the cloud of feelings that have been created by both parties to try and get to the real answers.
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ash maybe you answered this already but I do have a question...
I see your case on andrew and will look at it more fully soon. However, right now you are saying we should try and find the one out of three. I agree. But I do not see you considering at Jimmmmm at all. Is it just that you see your case so convincing on Andrew that you don't need to look at Jimmmmm?
I know that if there are two scum left, it has to be in {Andrew Jimmmmm Archetype yuma}
I know that if there is one scum left, same deal. To me, I have to find one scum, then worry about the other if there is one. I've focused on Andrew all game, obviously, and I'm confident there. I'm very confident there. So put that as the 90% percentile, willing to bet the game, read.
After that, I'm fairly mixed. Outside of claims, etc., I have varying town reads on all three of you. Inside of claims, my gut wants to suspect yuma, but it doesn't mesh with my reads, and I want to believe Jimmmmm, but doesn't mesh with the claims. I mean, Arch had the most ridiculous claim, but that's the only thing I can confirm.
Do I need to spend time looking for scum in you three? Only if there are two left. If there's a single scum left, it's in his best interest to push for folks to do the partner search, especially if we're closing in on the right person. My preference is to lynch one scum today and see if we need to keep searching.
Having a second partner lynched will give us so much more to re-read and look for.
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I don't think you mean "flimsy" man. Really.
You have Jimmmmm as your 2nd highest scum read right now. That's not in any way "flimsy" right? And you are using him as your defense?
Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.
Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.
So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector. But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.
Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.
Two of your defenses to my points are saying "look, scumread jimmmmm says I'm nice!" Is he scum or not? If he's scum, how are his claims proof you are town?
I already answered how Jimm could be scum and telling the truth about WW targeting me in order to not be contradicted. Here it is:
WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would still know that WW targeted me.
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I know that if there are two scum left, it has to be in {Andrew Jimmmmm Archetype yuma}
I know that if there is one scum left, same deal. To me, I have to find one scum, then worry about the other if there is one. I've focused on Andrew all game, obviously, and I'm confident there. I'm very confident there. So put that as the 90% percentile, willing to bet the game, read.
After that, I'm fairly mixed. Outside of claims, etc., I have varying town reads on all three of you. Inside of claims, my gut wants to suspect yuma, but it doesn't mesh with my reads, and I want to believe Jimmmmm, but doesn't mesh with the claims. I mean, Arch had the most ridiculous claim, but that's the only thing I can confirm.
Do I need to spend time looking for scum in you three? Only if there are two left. If there's a single scum left, it's in his best interest to push for folks to do the partner search, especially if we're closing in on the right person. My preference is to lynch one scum today and see if we need to keep searching.
Having a second partner lynched will give us so much more to re-read and look for.
That is a lot of words and very little of it about what I am asking about... Jimmmmm.
Right now the choice is between Jimmmm, you and Andrew. So Jimmmm and Andrew for you. You seem to be just pounding Andrew, but not looking to see if Jimmmmm is a valid or even a more valid option than Andrew. I know you have had a read on him all game, I get that. But have you looked at Jimmmmm is what I am asking. If you have please point me in that direction and continue to look at him. If you tunnel I am more likely to not want to follow it because I want you to be looking in both directions and coming to a correct conclusion, not making a decision and forcing everything to fit it.
And we have a mafia lynched already in WW. I don't feel we have fully utilized that information as a whole yet.
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ash I do feel like Andrew is bringing up valid points. And all you are doing is ignoring those valid comments and focusing on the AtE--yes there is some and maybe it is scummy, I don't know yet--rather than addressing the points themselves. That is going to make anyone frustrated.
I am not interested in talking about "seeming upset" or "faking emotions" or accusations of "being a meanie." I am interested in the arguments and the points, nothing more. This doesn't mean I have made up my mind either way... I still am. I am just trying to work through the cloud of feelings that have been created by both parties to try and get to the real answers.
I'm not sure I'm seeing valid points. His defense for his night action inconsistencies is "scum had a redirector" and "scum!read Jimmmmm says it happened." His reasoning for doctoring Jimmmmm over you or arch is faulty. I've provided a possible narrative where "scum had a redirector" works with Andrew being scum.
I've even given reasons in the past where Andrew could have been town. I unvoted after his claim on D1. I pointed out that the redirector could have pointed his block at me, resulting in no result on N2. I'm looking at both sides, but the evil side is just might stronger.
Andrew has been going with gut and read against me, and tunnelled all game. No even-handed look. No considering I could be incorrect town (if he's town). He's furiously digging out of a hole that just keeps getting bigger. That's how it seems to me, anyway.
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That is a lot of words and very little of it about what I am asking about... Jimmmmm.
Right now the choice is between Jimmmm, you and Andrew. So Jimmmm and Andrew for you. You seem to be just pounding Andrew, but not looking to see if Jimmmmm is a valid or even a more valid option than Andrew. I know you have had a read on him all game, I get that. But have you looked at Jimmmmm is what I am asking. If you have please point me in that direction and continue to look at him. If you tunnel I am more likely to not want to follow it because I want you to be looking in both directions and coming to a correct conclusion, not making a decision and forcing everything to fit it.
And we have a mafia lynched already in WW. I don't feel we have fully utilized that information as a whole yet.
I had a town read on Jimmmmm early, he's definitely not anywhere close to the scumminess of Andrew. If the choice is Andrew or Jimmmmm, that's super easy. If everyone else votes for Jimmmmm, well that's that. I'm trying to convince you (and everyone) to lynch Andrew.
I'll re-read Jimmmmm, if that's what you are asking me to do. I assume you're doing the same.
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One point that comes to me as to why Andrew is town is this:
If is scum and he has a blocking role then I should be dead. Archetype already stated that if he is blocked his protection of me doesn't work, thus freeing up mafia to kill me.
Not 100% solid, but I do think it is something.
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I don't know where you get that I'm calling you mean or whatever. I've been presenting a case on you for most of the game and your responses have been sarcastic and unhelpful. I've pointed this out because to me it's fake, it's distracting, it's annoying, and it's scummy. But in the end, I can go back and quote my previous suspicions and cases on you. So please don't say my whole case is AtE because that's false.
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I had a town read on Jimmmmm early, he's definitely not anywhere close to the scumminess of Andrew. If the choice is Andrew or Jimmmmm, that's super easy. If everyone else votes for Jimmmmm, well that's that. I'm trying to convince you (and everyone) to lynch Andrew.
I'll re-read Jimmmmm, if that's what you are asking me to do. I assume you're doing the same.
I would like you to yes, and I will as well. I want to know if your motivation is "get Andrew lynched" or "find and lynch scum." They might result in the same thing, but the motivation is very different. Right now it looks like you are more interested in the first.
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Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...
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Yes I think you're town Yuma. Why does that mean Arch is town?
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Yuma, is tunneling like this something town!ash would do? As far as meta is concerned, I'm lost. I'm just going by what I perceive to be scummy.
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Jimmmmm (125 posts total):
Pre-game:
#1: Tags.
#2: BBT joke.
#3: BBT joke #2.
#4: Ins.
Day 1:
#5: RVS votes for Archetype
#6: Joke
#7: Joke about ashersky not having a plan.
#8: More ashersky plan jokes.
#9: Brings up the idea of a daykill SK after yuma's claim.
#10: Votes for sudgy after sudgy voted for yuma.
#11: Comes up with X-Shot Day/Night SK idea.
#12: Responds to xeiron voting him; explains his thought process for evaluating yuma's claim.
#13: Responds to xeiron's respond; calls him out for "terrible reasoning."
#14: Responds to shraeye asking if the "terrible" was regular terrible or scum terrible. Ends on terribly terrible.
#15: Joke on Occam's Razor to ashersky.
#16: Points out another "meaningless" post by ashersky.
#17: Gives a town read on ashersky regardless. Says ashersky's point on Andrew has merit. Also says scummy vibe on Arch.
#18: Says Andrew should seriously think about claiming and that we need to know if yuma's going to shoot or not.
#19: Says there's no rush to claim, asks Andrew who we should be lynching instead.
#20: Points out something ashersky said as close to something ashersky said in a different game as scum.
#21: Gives some reads: yuma's definitely town, ashersky is probably town, Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum, usual scummy vibe from Arch, needs to re-read xeiron.
#22: Shraeye asks Jimmmm to elaborate on Arch; Jimmmmm says he can't after reread.
#23: Asks shraeye is ashersky being "worried" about him is enough to change his town read.
#24: Jimmmmm says ashersky doesn't like to bus as scum in response to TA.
#25: TA points out he was talking about sudgy, not ashersky.
#26: Responds to the Andrew/Sudgy discussion about putting Andrew to L-1.
#27: Responds to Andrew, says derphammers are pretty rare, and that since ashersky was already voting, that hammer wasn't a wory.
#28: Responds to being prodded. Asks not to be lynched, claims town.
#29: Responds to ashersky saying that a Jimmmmm who apologizes for lurking could be a scum!Jimmmmm by pointing out that his example was wrong.
#30: Responds to Archetype pointing out that, in fact, ashersky was right about the example.
#31: Closer to deadline, says he doesn't have many reads. He is okay to lynch Andrew. Does not want to lynch yuma or ash. Sudgy seems like an easy potential mislynch. He then unvotes.
#32: Plug for Dice Mafia.
#33: Reread XP and points out one odd post.
#34: States present and ready to vote.
#35: Says will probably vote Andrew, but wants to re-read sudgy first.
#36: Votes for Andrew after re-read.
#37: Responds to ashersky telling TA we don't have the votes for sudgy by stating he would vote for sudgy to ensure a lynch.
#38: Responds to TA stating he wanted to see if Jimmmmm really would vote for sudgy.
#39: Says yuma should just vig Andrew.
#40: Clarification post.
#41: Joke.
#42: Says vigging would prove the claim.
#43: Asks for clarification from Andrew right after ashersky does.
#44: Says it sounds believeable. Asks if Andrew's thought about what he'll be doing.
#45: After being accused of fishing, says he thinks Andrew's smart enough not to give too much away.
#46-54: Many one-liners as we approach deadline.
That's all of Day 1. I had a town read on Jimmmmm back then, on re-read that remains the case. Nothing out of the ordinary on D1 stick outs to me. There's zero interaction with WW, I suppose.
So a D1 comparison of Jimmmmm vs. Andrew and Andrew way ahead in scum points. Posting this now and moving on to D2.
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Yuma, is tunneling like this something town!ash would do? As far as meta is concerned, I'm lost. I'm just going by what I perceive to be scummy.
Go find the game where TA and I just demolished each other for like 20 pages and both ended up being town.
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I would like you to yes, and I will as well. I want to know if your motivation is "get Andrew lynched" or "find and lynch scum." They might result in the same thing, but the motivation is very different. Right now it looks like you are more interested in the first.
To be honest, there's a bit of the former in me. It is just so frustrated to not be listened to. I caught Andrew so early on D1, and here he is, still. So yes, I want to lynch Andrew. I want so very badly to be vindicated for this.
I do want to catch scum. I already have, from D1. The motivation to re-read 70+ pages of everyone else (especially you, with all your posts) isn't quite there when I know we have one scum already caught.
I'm just as interested in your re-reads as you are mine. I'd like you to re-read Andrew for sure.
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One point that comes to me as to why Andrew is town is this:
If is scum and he has a blocking role then I should be dead. Archetype already stated that if he is blocked his protection of me doesn't work, thus freeing up mafia to kill me.
Not 100% solid, but I do think it is something.
That's a fair point, if he can still roleblock without being redirected.
If the team is just Andrew/WW, we're looking at a fairly newbie scum team, too. I think it's important to take that into account. Some of the NKs aren't very sensible, at least from my POV. Like, I wouldn't expect them from Robz or Axxle or you.
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Yuma, is tunneling like this something town!ash would do? As far as meta is concerned, I'm lost. I'm just going by what I perceive to be scummy.
Go find the game where TA and I just demolished each other for like 20 pages and both ended up being town.
I modded that game, so I know it well. And it is true, they tunneled each other into a town defeat (scum played decent, but town lost the game). I tend to see tunneling as something that town does, anti-town generally, than scum does, but ash is very aware of his meta.
I wasn't in the game, but I seem to remember ash tunneling pretty hard in Super Mario as mafia, so I don't think it is an alignment tell for him
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Jimmmm, Day 2:
#55: "I still think ash is town."
#56: Ask witherweaver why he expected Andrew to be NKed when a large part of the town was on board to lynch him.
#57: Asks XP to explain his vote on ashersky.
#58: Asks for theories as to why scum!yuma claims dayvig.
#59: Asks XP what "you're still spreading suspicion" means in a game where we suspect everyone.
#60: Responds to yuma saying if Andrew is scum, so is ADK by asking "what is Andrew is town?"
#61: Says he's been trying to work his way into the game, but has little in the way of reads. Still has yuma and ash as town reads.
#62: Surprised when a post count shows 4 people with less posts than him.
#63: Asks Arch why he's re-reading with a bias.
#64: Responds to yuma's catty post about the mislynch.
#65: Votes for xeiron without a reason listed.
#66: Responding to xeiron, disagrees with xeiron's insistence that yuma shoot.
#67: Asks yuma why he was upset that Jimmmmm hadn't hammered.
#68: Responds to WW's case on Jimmmmm, explaining that he settled for a sudgy lynch over no lynch when Andrew wasn't getting lynched. Also disagrees that rolefishing is actually a thing.
#69: More to WW, saying it was false he got to choose which lynch, since it was sudgy or nothing.
#70: Responds to TA pointing out flavor doesn't help.
#71: Agrees that yuma is probably town, but doesn't think trying to create ICs is a good game plan.
#72: Again asking if flavor matters.
#73: Clarification post.
#74: Still arguing with TA over flavor's importance.
#75: More flavor arguing.
#76: Quote fail.
#77: Says he probably won't lynch yuma today or tomorrow, but hesistant to use the IC label.
#78: Says he didn't realize TA had claimed a result. Half following from work.
#79: Asks ashersky what he meant by "off".
#80: Asks XP why his reactions are scummy.
#81: Up for a yuma-led massclaim.
#82: Asks XP for reasons why he'd be up to lynch Jimmmmm or ashersky, as he sees none.
#83: Thinks people are willing to lynch him because town is lazy and willing to punish bad town play.
#84: Responds to ashersky saying that post #83 was scummy by clarifying.
#85: Asks ashersky what reaction he expected.
#86: WW brings up the old fight from earlier in the day, Jimmmmm holds his ground.
#87: Town reads on yuma, ash, and xeiron towny. No scum reads.
#88: Asks WW to name someone he influenced for the sudgy lynch.
#89: Explaining town read on ash as from ages ago and to do with approach, xeiron for similar thinking.
#90: Points out to WW that if he's trying to argue that ashersky following Jimmmm to the Andrew lynch, he's missing something.
#91: More fighting with WW no who controlled the lynch at the end of D1.
#92: Votes for WW after Andrew does for interoggating people.
#93: Votes no lynch after yuma's dayvig.
That's all of D2. More interaction here, gets a few scumreads on him from others. He interacts with WW, and I think he comes off as unlikely to be WW's partner here. It could be staged, I guess, but what strikes me as odd was how it flamed up near the beginning of the day, then came back in the same form late in the day. I think scum fake fights once, but not twice the same way on the same day.
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Here's something interesting:
After seeing Jimmmmm's claim, I asked mail-mi whether or not I'd be considered as targeting the player I seraph-knight every night, or just the original night and he said it would just be the original night. Which makes sense.
So either:
Jimmmmm is scum and really is a Tracker
Jimmmmm is scum and guessed that's how my Seraph Knight would work
Jimmmmm is Town
I'm leaning Jimmmmm being Town. What do you think, Yuma?
PPE: 1
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Jimmmmm, Day 3:
#94: Asks xeiron why he voted for him.
#95: Asks for redirector clarification.
#96: Asks Arch how redirector is powerful and how he would use it.
#97: Checks in. Says he'll catch up.
#98: At work, says he can claim.
#99: Asks Arch that so long as he's alive and not RB, yuma is Bulletproof.
#100: Claim post. Says he is a Tracker. N1 Shraeye with no result, N2 WW targeting Andrew.
#101: Thinks he'd see the other name if WW redirected Andrew.
#102: Thinks Andrew's survival is fishy.
#103: Thinks redirector would work like bus driver, clarified that his result was definitely only andrew.
#104: More discussion on how redirector resolves in relation to tracker.
#105: Responds to the idea of leaving TA alive, thinks we should lynch TA.
#106: Asks why XP thinks endgame is imminent.
#107: Joke response to TA.
#108: Another joke response to TA.
#109: L-1 vote on TA.
#110: Asks xeiron about his scum reads.
#111: Asks why XP wants to lynch xeiron tomorrow.
#112: Complains that he's telling scum "if you leave him alive, we'll lynch him."
#113: Understanding.
Not a lot of D3, but it was a quicker day once we caught TA. The claim isn't crazy, his targets are sensible.
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Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...
I think this is the most likely thing to be going on. I think Andrew/ash trying to bus each other for Towncred. I could totally see Scum!ash saying I his QT pregame "we gotta fight D1" to his partners. I'm pretty sure he's done it before, and wouldn't be surprised if this is another instance of it.
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And Jimmmm so far today:
#114: Tracked arch last night, no result.
#115: Asks yuma why he's confident arch is town. Is pretty sure Andrew is scum.
#116: Points out he agreed with ash in the beginning.
#117: Hopes yuma isn't being serious with the blackmail.
#118: Agrees with ash that the blackmail was lame.
#119: Feels we need to lynch Andrew today.
#120: Asks yuma if he's sure there's 2 scum left.
#121: Game balance discussion.
#122: Asking how much he can clarify his result.
#123: Thinks he found proof that one of him and Andrew must be scum based on night action claims. Fake votes andrew
#124: Responds to Andrew asking why he is jumping to that conclusion.
#125: Fake unvotes andrew when SK is taken into consideration.
Not much to comment on. I agree with him on most of this stuff.
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Andrew: Why did you target Jimmmmm? Why not me?
Ashersky: Why did you target me? Why not Andrew?
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Andrew: Why did you target Jimmmmm? Why not me?
Ashersky: Why did you target me? Why not Andrew?
or any other player for that matter
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Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...
I think this is the most likely thing to be going on. I think Andrew/ash trying to bus each other for Towncred. I could totally see Scum!ash saying I his QT pregame "we gotta fight D1" to his partners. I'm pretty sure he's done it before, and wouldn't be surprised if this is another instance of it.
I feel like you've been tunnelling me a bit. We were scum together in the past right? Sea Hags?
Do you think honestly this "fight" is staged? Plus, you just modded my last scum win. I think you are reading me wrong.
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One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch.
Strongly disagree. More investigative roles means a stronger scum team. The more investigative roles there are, the more likely they are to eliminate an entire faction. That's why some SKs are Ninja!
Unless scum have lots of Redirecting/Godfathering/Ninjaing, in which case investigative roles have a lot of potential for confusion.
Eh, alright. But, what? Ninja Strongman Godfather and Redirector? Still pretty weak even compared to just the dead roles.
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Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...
I think this is the most likely thing to be going on. I think Andrew/ash trying to bus each other for Towncred. I could totally see Scum!ash saying I his QT pregame "we gotta fight D1" to his partners. I'm pretty sure he's done it before, and wouldn't be surprised if this is another instance of it.
I feel like you've been tunnelling me a bit. We were scum together in the past right? Sea Hags?
Do you think honestly this "fight" is staged? Plus, you just modded my last scum win. I think you are reading me wrong.
I was definitely NOT scum in sea hags. Why does everyone think that...
I believe this fight could be staged. Most of your accusations against Andrew have been relatively flimsy. The original "scumslip" was weak and he reasoning you are using now seems fake.
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Ashersky: Why did you target me? Why not Andrew?
or any other player for that matter
Arch's role claim was by far the most dubious to me, as far as likelihood. I mean, seraph knight? And there was the other aspect, which needed clarified. By knowing Arch is telling the truth, plus other stuff, it took two people off the table for today. I don't get alignment, but I can see truth and reasoning.
I can verify if people are lying or telling the truth. Arch has a role that doesn't require him to say anything else about targeting, etc. so it's the least verifiable by other means. If Jimmmmm was lying, he would have to make up a result today that could have been wrong, but didn't (unless arch is his partner). Andrew's role too should be verifiable by claims after three nights, but hasn't been, unless he stopped a kill on N2.
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Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...
I think this is the most likely thing to be going on. I think Andrew/ash trying to bus each other for Towncred. I could totally see Scum!ash saying I his QT pregame "we gotta fight D1" to his partners. I'm pretty sure he's done it before, and wouldn't be surprised if this is another instance of it.
So...
Arch thinks: andrew/ashersky
Jim thinks: andrew/X?
ash thinks: andrew/X?
yuma won't commit.
I absolutely expect Andrew's partner to bus today, btw.
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Andrew: Why did you target Jimmmmm? Why not me?
It was late, I had to rush and do something before mail-mi opened the thread back up (I think I technically missed the deadline so maybe my night action didn't go through at all), and from what I remember I had some WIFOM theory about why scum would keep you alive if yuma is town which doesn't really make any sense to me anymore.
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Jimm still hasn't flavor claimed I don't think.
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Vote Count 4.2
Not Voting (5): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, yuma, ashersky
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT
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Better answer:
I wanted to save someone from a NK. Jimm claimed tracker, XP claimed mailman, and Arch claimed Seraph Knight. If all three are town, I would think Tracker is the biggest threat. So I doctored the claimed tracker. When the least threatening of the three was killed (XP), that raised my suspicions on Jimm and Arch significantly.
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Better answer:
I wanted to save someone from a NK. Jimm claimed tracker, XP claimed mailman, and Arch claimed Seraph Knight. If all three are town, I would think Tracker is the biggest threat. So I doctored the claimed tracker. When the least threatening of the three was killed (XP), that raised my suspicions on Jimm and Arch significantly.
Did you think of this just now... or did you think of it during the night that you submitted the action? If you thought of it then why didn't you mention this train of thought two posts up?
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Because I couldn't remember the exact logic behind why I did it but basically it was a POE decision. Here's what I posted when first asked this question. Notice ash used the "why doctor Jimm?" argument again AFTER I already answered it.
Why doctor Jimmmmm? And then put him in the lynch category?
Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.
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Vote Count 4.3
Not Voting (5): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, yuma, ashersky
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT
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Yuma, how are your rereads coming?
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Yuma, how are your rereads coming?
They are pretty much done, I have been working the last three days, but am off now, so it has taken some time to see what I needed to see. I think I know where I stand...
Right now I think we can proceed with votes. I will continue to not vote and I would ask that Arch not vote either. So that means I Jimmmm, ashersky and Andrew can all vote--and probably should--but with Arch and I not voting for now won't be able to get a lynch through unless someone selfvotes. I am confident enough that Arch is town that I don't think we risk a quickhammer.
There are a few things I want to make sure about, but I think we are ok to proceed forward.
Arch and I will vote a bit later after those things are taken care of. Sorry to be cryptic, but I think this is the way I need to proceed.
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vote: andrew
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Also this won't verify to others that Arch is town (as we very well might only have 1 mafia) but if we have two it should pretty much make him the confirmed town that I strongly believe him to be. If he isn't and he hammers w/o waiting for the go ahead then I have completely and totally misread the entire game (not likely)...
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Also this won't verify to others that Arch is town (as we very well might only have 1 mafia) but if we have two it should pretty much make him the confirmed town that I strongly believe him to be. If he isn't and he hammers w/o waiting for the go ahead then I have completely and totally misread the entire game (not likely)...
Don't worry, I'm Town. I believe you to be Town, but you can never be too careful. Why do you want people to vote now?
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Anything else you want from us?
I mean, you knew I preferred Andrew. I'm not lynching either of you two today. I'd only lynch Jimmmmm (today) if it was him or me.
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Also this won't verify to others that Arch is town (as we very well might only have 1 mafia) but if we have two it should pretty much make him the confirmed town that I strongly believe him to be. If he isn't and he hammers w/o waiting for the go ahead then I have completely and totally misread the entire game (not likely)...
Don't worry, I'm Town. I believe you to be Town, but you can never be too careful. Why do you want people to vote now?
If only Jimmmmm, ash and Andrew vote they can't reach a lynch. I am wanting people to put their vote where their mouth is (is that the right phrasing). If you and I don't vote for a bit then we will be ok.
What is your schedule like Arch? There a few things I want to talk over with you... back and forth style. Will you be around during the weekend? I am kinda off for a bit but will be around more tomorrow morning (I imagine you will be in school tomorrow morning).
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I'm all in for an ash lynch.
vote: ash
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I'm all in for an ash lynch.
vote: ash
I disagree. I think you should vote for Andrew.
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Also this won't verify to others that Arch is town (as we very well might only have 1 mafia) but if we have two it should pretty much make him the confirmed town that I strongly believe him to be. If he isn't and he hammers w/o waiting for the go ahead then I have completely and totally misread the entire game (not likely)...
Don't worry, I'm Town. I believe you to be Town, but you can never be too careful. Why do you want people to vote now?
If only Jimmmmm, ash and Andrew vote they can't reach a lynch. I am wanting people to put their vote where their mouth is (is that the right phrasing). If you and I don't vote for a bit then we will be ok.
What is your schedule like Arch? There a few things I want to talk over with you... back and forth style. Will you be around during the weekend? I am kinda off for a bit but will be around more tomorrow morning (I imagine you will be in school tomorrow morning).
I meant why should I take the chance with you. I mean, it's super unlikely that you'd be scum, but it just seems unsafe to take that risk.
I should be free tommorow night and most of Saturday.
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I meant why should I take the chance with you. I mean, it's super unlikely that you'd be scum, but it just seems unsafe to take that risk.
I get Arch's point here. If yuma is scum, we're just giving him the hammer. If yuma/arch is the scum team, we are giving them the hammer.
At some point, we bet the game on our reads, and what we know, though.
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I meant why should I take the chance with you. I mean, it's super unlikely that you'd be scum, but it just seems unsafe to take that risk.
I should be free tommorow night and most of Saturday.
I get that. But at some point in the game you have to start making assumptions, and I think this is a very solid assumption that you are making, yes?. I am working based on the idea that you are assuming that I am town going forward.
If you don't think this, or if you feel that you need more time to think things through, then we should slow down, but I was under the impression feeling that you (and everyone else) were ready to go and only my reread was holding everyone up.
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Request a prod on Jimmmmm please
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Request a prod on Jimmmmm please
Prod sent
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Huh, didn't realise I hadn't posted in so long. Almost voted for Andrew, but realised I should re-read him and ash first before I vote when I get a chance.
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Alright so this is kinda dead right now. I guess I'll use this time to do some more rereading.
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I meant why should I take the chance with you. I mean, it's super unlikely that you'd be scum, but it just seems unsafe to take that risk.
I should be free tommorow night and most of Saturday.
I get that. But at some point in the game you have to start making assumptions, and I think this is a very solid assumption that you are making, yes?. I am working based on the idea that you are assuming that I am town going forward.
If you don't think this, or if you feel that you need more time to think things through, then we should slow down, but I was under the impression feeling that you (and everyone else) were ready to go and only my reread was holding everyone up.
I think you're the most likely to be Town out of everyone else, but the way you jumped right into it after being strict about people not voting made me sort of uneasy.
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Well that was mostly because I realized that if neither of us voted (and if we are both town, which we are) then there was no risk of a quickhammer, so my worry about votes wasn't warranted.
I am still kinda waiting for Jimmmmm to vote until I proceed with what I want to do. Not necessarily a rush Jimmmmm, take your time coming to the vote that you want to cast... It was just that I thought Jimmmmm had already decided and was waiting for the go ahead to vote.
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Possibly dumb question: is no lynch an option today?
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Nevermind. Dumb question.
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Vote Count 4.4
AndrewisFTTW (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): AndrewisFTTW
Not Voting (5): Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT.
In the event of a hammer this weekend I will be in and out all weekend. Not sure about mail-mi's availability. There may be twilight.
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I'm predicting an ash Jimm scum team. Jimm still hasn't flavor claimed and here are his claimed night actions:
Jimmmmm - ? - Tracker
N1 - Tracked shraeye - nobody
N2 - Tracked Witherweaver - targeted Andrew
N3 - Tracked Arch - nobody
N1 he supposedly tracked shraeye (commuter). N2 he supposedly tracked WW (potential scum partner), N3 he tracked Arch. Why would you track Arch when he already claimed to have protected yuma on N1?
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So very suspicious and convenient night actions. Combine that with a complete lack of interaction with WW besides a little bit on D2 and I think I'm more comfortable voting Jimm.
vote: Jimm
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I kinda doubt that Jimmmm is going to be the lynch today, Andrew. For me it is down to choosing between you and ash. I am leaning a certain way but I won't say which way yet.
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What do you think of his claimed night actions? We did the mass claim for this reason, so we could catch somebody in a lie.
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What do you think of his claimed night actions? We did the mass claim for this reason, so we could catch somebody in a lie.
I think his has the problem of being unverifiable (although the point about him correctly getting how Arch's role works is a point in his favor, even if it is probably a bit obvious, but still...) compared to everyone else.
But unverifiability itself isn't scummy. We did claim to see if we could catch someone in a lie, but he hasn't been caught in a lie. I kinda get the concern about tracking Arch... It is actually a really great track. Because if Arch targeted anyone on night3 then he is probably scum! Arch would have been caught in a lie. You suspected Arch coming into today why shouldn't Jimmmmm have as well?
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There's nothing wrong with suspecting Arch. But I thought Seraph Knight was you target somebody N1 and that's that. Here's what I found on mafiascum:
"The Seraph Knight is a role that may only choose one target at Night throughout the entire game. From then until either the Seraph Knight or its target dies, the target is protected from all kills made against them."
Sorry if you guys discussed this already, I must've missed that. So I guess Arch can only target one person but he has to target that person every night?
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Also when Xeiron added the dead players to my list, he added this:
Shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.
N1 - Did not commute
Killed N1
How do we know Shraeye didn't commute N1? I thought Commuter wasn't really an action, but rather when you're a Commuter, you just Commute each night.
Also from mafiascum:
"The Tracker is an informative role that can target a player at Night and learn who, if anybody, that player targeted the same night (but not the action the player performed). If that player did not target anyone, the Tracker receives a result of 'did not target anyone' or similar."
But Jimm claims he got "no result" from what I remember. He never said "did not target anyone".
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Most games that have a tracker and a role that is capable of blocking the mod simplifies it down to "no result" for both times when the target didn't target anyone OR if the tracker was blocked. Otherwise the tracker immediately knows if he was blocked that night--something that puts whomever at a disadvantage.
From your same wiki:
"Some moderators return no result when the Tracker's target does not go anywhere at Night; this is indistinguishable from the message that would be received if the Tracker was Roleblocked. However, this is not Normal and tends to be seen in role madness games as a means of introducing more confusion."
I disagree with the more confusion part and see it more as a way to give roleblockers more anonymity.
Anyways... what was the point?
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and a commuter has to choose to commute in general. And he didn't commute because he died.
If he had commuted he probably wouldn't have died. Commuter is generally at the top of the resolution sequence and is resolved first.
As for arch's thing. I believe he actively targeted me once. From then on it is a passive targeting. One that wouldn't be picked up by a tracking result because it is passive. At least that is how I would have played it out and how it appears it is playing out here.
but all of this is just WIOM the mod. Something that I don't really like to do and something I don't really see as productive.
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Ok well that clears that up. So you think Jimm tracked Arch to see if he could catch him in a lie? That makes sense. But I'm still calling for that ash/Jimm scum team.
vote: ash
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Arch what are your thoughts?
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Arch what are your thoughts?
I'm leaning Andrew and ash being the remaining scum. I started the day out thinking ash may be more likely, but now I'm leaning Andrew.
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I kinda feel the same but, I feel like we need to lynch ashersky. I think he is scum a little more than Andrew, but I am not sure. Will you vote there with me?
If we do Andrew, if you are town... you must doctor archetype tonight. If he dies you will be the lynch tomorrow. I know you won't fully understand this, but if you think I am town then just do it!!! But more importantly if Archetype dies tonight you will be the lynch. There is of course a risk here that if scum has some sort of strongman and you aren't scum then they will just set you up. But that is a risk we have to take. Do not protect me. Arch is protecting me. So protect Arch instead. This of course is assuming that we are still going to be alive after lynching ash, I think we will, but I am not 100% sure...
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vote: ash
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Absolutely. I still think Jimm and ash are scum, and thus you and Arch are telling the truth.
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Ok. I think we just need arch to hammer. Arch hammer? Or you want to talk it through some more...?
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I kinda feel the same but, I feel like we need to lynch ashersky. I think he is scum a little more than Andrew, but I am not sure. Will you vote there with me?
If we do Andrew, if you are town... you must doctor archetype tonight. If he dies you will be the lynch tomorrow. I know you won't fully understand this, but if you think I am town then just do it!!! But more importantly if Archetype dies tonight you will be the lynch. There is of course a risk here that if scum has some sort of strongman and you aren't scum then they will just set you up. But that is a risk we have to take. Do not protect me. Arch is protecting me. So protect Arch instead. This of course is assuming that we are still going to be alive after lynching ash, I think we will, but I am not 100% sure...
Do you want me to me to vote right now?
yuma, I think Andrew should Roleblock Jimmmmm. I do not want to run the risk of scum!Jimmmmm making Andrew Jailkeep me and then killing you.
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I would like you to vote now yes, and don't worry about me. I don't mind being killed. But again if Arch dies tonight, andrew is the lynch. Doctor Arch.
If what you say is true arch, that Jimmm makes andrew jail you and then kills me then just lynch jimmmm tomorrow.
Or am I missing something important on my side of the equation?
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I think I might be missing something important, am I?
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I think I might be missing something important, am I?
Yes. Think about why I'm Town, again.
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right... do you think you might be missing something important or do you think you have all the information necessary?
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right... do you think you might be missing something important or do you think you have all the information necessary?
I checked -- I think we're OK.
Vote: ashersky
Andrew: Doctor me, please.
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maybe our best bet is hoping there is only a 2 man scum team? If there is only 2 scum, which out of the three is most likely to be it. I would probably say Andrew.
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and now we wait and hope
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maybe our best bet is hoping there is only a 2 man scum team? If there is only 2 scum, which out of the three is most likely to be it. I would probably say Andrew.
If ash is scum, I think Andrew is the most likely partner.
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and ash, if you are town. Don't be mad.... well be mad, but we can talk after the game is over. But I really, really don't think you are town.
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In the event of a hammer this weekend I will be in and out all weekend. Not sure about mail-mi's availability. There may be twilight.
It may be awhile before we get a flip.
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yeah, I am hoping mail-mi has early church and will give us our flip soon! or sneaks onto his smartphone while at church...
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yeah, I am hoping mail-mi has early church and will give us our flip soon! or sneaks onto his smartphone while at church...
I do.
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If ash is scum how does that make me his partner? I've been pushing ash's lynch for most of the game.
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THREAD LOCKED!
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Vote Count 4.FINAL
AndrewisFTTW (1): ashersky,
ashersky (3): AndrewisFTTW, yuma, Archetype
Not Voting (1): Jimmmmm
With 5 alive it tooks 3 to lynch.
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After long hours of staring at each other, sometimes someone saying something, the group quickly rounded on ashersky, crying "He's one of the Forsaken!"
They brought him up to mail-mi's tent--and realized that he was, in fact, still dead. They stood there, looking awkwardly at each other, until someone came bounding into the camp.
"Sorry sorry sorry I'm late," the newcomer said. "I'm Jorbles--your backup mod." He ran into mail-mi's tent and pulled out the Oath Rod, then handed it to ashersky.
Ashersky held it in his hands. "I vow to speak any word that is untrue," he said. "I am not a Darkfriend."
The three that had grabbed him looked at each other and shrugged. "I guess he's not a Darkfriend then." They started to walk away, but Archetype stopped.
"Wait," he said. "He said 'I vow to speak any word that is untrue... He's a liar and a Darkfriend!" The three surrounded him, and soon ashersky was no more.
Ashersky has been lynched. He was Moghedien, the Spider, the Forsaken-aligned Rolecop!
NIGHT 4 STARTS NOW!
Night actions are due by 11 PM forum time on Monday, May 5th (Shorter night because I will not be available at 3 pm forum time on tuesday and there's only 4 people alive).
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Beware! There is a shift in the winds, and the Dark One has begun to touch the world! Time is being distorted, and the sun is moving faster!
Night 4 is ending at 11 PM FT tonight! If you don't have an action in, or want to change your action, make sure to do it by then!
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The group awoke to a dreary sight. Dead bodies of fallen comrades lay strewn everywhere. However, none of them were fresh.
No one has died.
Till shade is gone, till water is gone,
into the Shadow with teeth bared,
screaming defiance with the last breath,
to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day.
-Aiel Oath
Day 5 start!
Thread Unlocked!
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fascinating...
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Vote Count 5.0
Not Voting (4): Jimmmmm, AndrewisFTTW, yuma, Archetype
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 5 ends on Monday, May 12 at 11 PM FT (note the shortened deadline).
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Alright... so Jimmmm and Andrew convince us...
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Well I doctored Arch and Arch has you covered so
vote: Jimm
And that's that.
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I tracked Andrew and sure enough he only targeted Arch.
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If Jimm killed me, Arch and yuma would lynch him right away. If Jimm killed yuma (by targeting me and thus me roleblocking Arch), me and Arch would kill Jimm right away.
If Arch was scum, he would've killed yuma and claimed I roleblocked him so I could carry out the kill.
I am most definitely not scum so that leaves Jimm.
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If Jimm killed yuma (by targeting me and thus me roleblocking Arch), me and Arch would kill Jimm right away.
I'm not sure that's true.
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Ash had no choice but to completely side with Jimm yesterday. Here are a couple examples:
I had a town read on Jimmmmm early, he's definitely not anywhere close to the scumminess of Andrew. If the choice is Andrew or Jimmmmm, that's super easy. If everyone else votes for Jimmmmm, well that's that. I'm trying to convince you (and everyone) to lynch Andrew.
I mean, you knew I preferred Andrew. I'm not lynching either of you two today. I'd only lynch Jimmmmm (today) if it was him or me.
And just in case he gets lynched, he plants this seed oh so conspicuously:
I absolutely expect Andrew's partner to bus today, btw.
Clever.
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Ok so that last point doesn't make sense. Whatever, it's late and I need to go to sleep.
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If Jimm killed yuma (by targeting me and thus me roleblocking Arch), me and Arch would kill Jimm right away.
I'm not sure that's true.
Which part?
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If Jimm killed yuma (by targeting me and thus me roleblocking Arch), me and Arch would kill Jimm right away.
I'm not sure that's true.
Which part?
...the quoted part.
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So yuma and Arch, what do you think?
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So yuma and Arch, what do you think?
Well I think I want to go with my gut and trust my read on you. It has been a strong town read pretty much all game. Going back on that would just be crazy. Really the only thing that jumps out as suspicious for me in regard to you is that you are still alive. But that really isn't a very good argument at all...
I kinda wavered for a while because I was still alive. But I am pretty sure that the lack of a mafia kill night2 was because I was protected from being killed (by both you are Arch apparently). Not 100% sure, but pretty sure. So that mitigates that concern as I would expect mafia to have killed me off if you weren't mafia, and it appears they tried to do so.
So really I am most likely going to vote for Jimmmmmm.
I can't speak for Arch, but to get a lynch through Arch and I will have to vote together.
At the least I want to give Jimmmm a chance for some last words, but I won't wait long. I don't anticipated using up the whole of this day. Part of that is because I am already pretty sure from my previous rereads and I don't have time to do any more rereading as I am on this week at work. So Jimmmm I guess speak up if you have anything to say...
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So yuma and Arch, what do you think?
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think scum either decided to no-kill or scum can't kill AND use their powers. I'm leaning the latter.t
From scum!Jimmmmm's position: He knows that Andrew, yuma, and I are all Town. Whether he's a Tracker or not, he has to have a result to claim the next day. Here is where things branch off:
If Mafia CAN kill and use a power: he targets Andrew forcing him to roleblock me and then kills yuma. He then tries to convince me to lynch Andrew FTW.
If Mafia CAN'T kill and use a power: he has to make a choice. If he kills Andrew, he knows yuma and I will lynch him the following day. If he uses his power, he does so and is either a Tracker and targets Andrew (no other targets make sense) or uses his actual power and fakeclaims his result or just no-kills and claims a result.
From scum!Andrew's position: He knows that Jimmmmm, yuma, and I are all Town. Things branch off once again:
If Mafia CAN kill and use a power: He targets me like he said he would in case Jimmmmm Tracks him and, if he's a Roleblocker (which I'm pretty sure his power is if he is scum), kills yum and must try to convince me to lynch Jimmmmm the following day.
If Mafia CAN'T kill and use a power: He can't kill no matter what. If I'm dead, he's dead. If Jimmmmm doesn't see him target me, he's dead. If Jimmmmm's dead, he's dead. So he just targets me with his power and has to try to convince everyone else that he isn't scum.
If both cases where Mafia can kill and use their power, they could opt to no-kill. Look to "Can't Kill and use a power" for what I think for each person.
I think it's pretty implausible that Jimmmmm is and could kill and use a power in the same night. If he were, he'd target Andrew and then kill yuma. Perfect frame job to get Andrew lynched the next day. This, combined with his Tracking of me, makes me really think that Andrew FTTW is the last scum. I'll be rereading Andrew now knowing that WW and ashersky are scum and see it if isn't too farfetched. Yuma, what are your thoughts?
PPE: yuma
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I must admit I'm pretty lost as to who the most likely scum is. The way ash was on Andrew Day 1 - he just doesn't do that to his scumbuddies. Especially in an RMM game in which there are likely non-Mafia kills going around. I mean, I guess he could have done it knowing that everyone would think he wouldn't, but man that's risky for him.
I really can't see yuma being scum, which leaves me with Arch. yuma, how certain are you that Arch is Town? Remind me why?
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Hmmm, I messed up a little on Andrew's thing there. If he kills yuma, Jimmmmm would Track that. So that does put points in his favor.
Agh. Now I'm not sure. My gut tells me that Jimmmmm is Town.
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Hmmm, I messed up a little on Andrew's thing there. If he kills yuma, Jimmmmm would Track that. So that does put points in his favor.
Agh. Now I'm not sure. My gut tells me that Jimmmmm is Town.
What do you think about ash/Andrew?
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I must admit I'm pretty lost as to who the most likely scum is. The way ash was on Andrew Day 1 - he just doesn't do that to his scumbuddies. Especially in an RMM game in which there are likely non-Mafia kills going around. I mean, I guess he could have done it knowing that everyone would think he wouldn't, but man that's risky for him.
I really can't see yuma being scum, which leaves me with Arch. yuma, how certain are you that Arch is Town? Remind me why?
I have never explained my reasoning. And I am still not fully going to for a specific reason. But I am pretty confident about it. Like the narrative for it setup wise makes totally sense to me. I will be honest... part of this confidence is based of something that ash was hinting at from his role copping him, but I don't think ash was lying.
There is a narrative where Arch is scum. I do have a conspiracy theory about it. But it is so far out there and goes against everything that I have been assuming thus far this game. It would require some steps that don't make sense setup wise.
So arch just isn't getting lynched today. I know that probably isn't completely satisfying to you and if I am wrong (and I really, really don't think that I am) then the game was doomed a long, long time ago...
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Might not get an answer, but might as well try this:
Mods: Can mafia use their powers and perform a kill on the same night? What if there is only 1 mafia left?
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What possible reason is there to hide information at this point? We need to lynch scum, period. If there's even the slightest chance that Arch is scum you owe it to us to share whatever it is you have on him.
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What possible reason is there to hide information at this point? We need to lynch scum, period. If there's even the slightest chance that Arch is scum you owe it to us to share whatever it is you have on him.
If for some reason whomever we lynch is lynchproof or if we decide to no-lynch I don't want the relevant information known going into night. Like I said there is a narrative. I just think it is conspiracy theory garbage that is making me a little nervous.
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Arch I think my scumhunting has been pretty clear and consistent all game. I've been pushing ash's lynch hard since D2 or so.
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What possible reason is there to hide information at this point? We need to lynch scum, period. If there's even the slightest chance that Arch is scum you owe it to us to share whatever it is you have on him.
If for some reason whomever we lynch is lynchproof or if we decide to no-lynch I don't want the relevant information known going into night. Like I said there is a narrative. I just think it is conspiracy theory garbage that is making me a little nervous.
So basically, in the event that I'm Town (I am), you're telling me just to assume that Andrew is scum?
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I've been pushing ash's lynch hard since D2 or so.
Hmm.
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I've been pushing ash's lynch hard since D2 or so.
Hmm.
What's scummier? Constantly making a case over and over again to lynch conf!scum or being completely absent and not voting at all when said conf!scum is about to be lynched? You can't seriously look back at 50 pages of arguing and say that was bussing.
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I've been pushing ash's lynch hard since D2 or so.
Hmm.
What's scummier? Constantly making a case over and over again to lynch conf!scum or being completely absent and not voting at all when said conf!scum is about to be lynched? You can't seriously look back at 50 pages of arguing and say that was bussing.
If I'm to assume that yuma and Arch are Town, then I must conclude that it was bussing. If it was, it was an incredibly risky but, in the end, incredibly effective plan.
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What possible reason is there to hide information at this point? We need to lynch scum, period. If there's even the slightest chance that Arch is scum you owe it to us to share whatever it is you have on him.
If for some reason whomever we lynch is lynchproof or if we decide to no-lynch I don't want the relevant information known going into night. Like I said there is a narrative. I just think it is conspiracy theory garbage that is making me a little nervous.
So basically, in the event that I'm Town (I am), you're telling me just to assume that Andrew is scum?
Unfortunately yes.... I mean I would be happy to look at any in thread evidence you have on Archetype. I have looked myself and I have found nothing that implicates him enough to make me question my current position on him...
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I guess there's not a whole lot I can say in my defense. Objectively, it seems most likely that I am scum. Unfortunately (or otherwise), I am not.
If you think back to Super Mario Mafia, both ash and I were scum, and I did everything I could towards the end to ensure that we did not agree, so that if he was lynched it wouldn't implicate me. In the same situation in this game, I half-heartedly agreed with him. I'd like to think that if I was scum with ash, we would have been able to put ourselves in a much better position to actually win the game.
On the other hand, if Andrew is scum, they've put themselves in an excellent position to win the game.
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From D4:
Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
Regardless, unless there's an extremely good reason to do otherwise, we need to lynch Andrew Today.
Such a confident read on me on D4. Why aren't you as sure now? And you STILL haven't flavor claimed.
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Ok, notable things from reread:
- On Day 1, ashersky starts the Andrew wagon. His initial vote was sort of like "hey, this is a scumslip! Vote him!" Instead of, you know, an actual case. Andrew even says: "Like I've already said a few times, I'm under the impression that ash is making some sort of joke or something. I was pretty confused" But when he reaches L-1, he starts using the argument of "He's reacting scummy, so he's scum." Witherweaver is hedging the wagon the whole time before jumping on when it cools down a bit.
- What do you guys think is more likely?
1) I'm scum and ash is scum
2) I'm scum and ash is town
3) I'm town and ash is scum
4) I'm town and ash is town
Show your work!
I proposed (1) way back and no one responded to it. Well admittedly I didn't think it was likely, but the thought occurred to me.
!!!
- When shraeye asks whats the most scummy things regarding Andrew's lynch, he points to sudgy. Not ash.
- D2, he follows me when I post my case on ash. They continue to really get on each other. He states suspicious on ash and Jimmmmm, but his next vote is on WW. Not ash.
-Day 3 immediately goes after ashersky. Claims to have Doctored yuma and switches his vote to me later. He claimed to Roleblock TA N1 and Jimmmmm claimed to have seen Witherweaver target Andrew N2.
- On Day 4, claims some weird night action stuff. Like, he says one thought process then changes it later. Says he's "all in for ash", but then switches to Jimmmmm, but then goes back to ash.
And that's it. Man, there are a couple of things from WW and ash that make me think he could be scum, but his argument with ashersky just seems so real. And I really think Jimmmmm is Town. Ugh. I'll think about this more tommorow/reread Jimmmmm.
PPE:14
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From D4:
Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
Regardless, unless there's an extremely good reason to do otherwise, we need to lynch Andrew Today.
Such a confident read on me on D4. Why aren't you as sure now? And you STILL haven't flavor claimed.
I thought at that stage the night actions implicated you.
What possible good could flavour claiming do?
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well one thing we do know is that Jimmmm is not scum with a strongman shot. If there were I think he would have shot Archetype to implicate Andrew because I was pretty serious that if Archetype died Andrew would be the lynch. So we can rule that out.
If Jimmmmm is scum what is his role? He is fake claimed as tracker. As a reminder faust was a voyeur. We haven't really seen any sort of symmetry this game (that we are aware of), so if that is true then it would be unique.
The Tracker learns who a player targeted, but not what action that player performed.
The Voyeur learns what actions were performed on a player, but not who targeted them.
Voyeur is the exact opposite of a Tracker.
One point that is making think is this:
...okay crazy idea that may have no merit at all. Would it make sense for both Ash and Andrew to be scum and Ash is throwing Andrew under the bus? That could throw a lot of suspicion off of him in the future. Or, Andrew's three-scum comment could have been a real slip and this is how Ash is covering for it. If we end up lynching Andrew, then Ash looks strong town. If we end up not being convinced, then we're less likely to come back to thinking Andrew is scum. Either way, it would protect one of them.
I also forgot that ashersky voted Jimmmm at one point that looks to me kinda like a scum voting a partner vote
TA is town and telling the truth.
vote: jimmmmm to have a vacation vote and because I think his reaction to TA's reveal is off.
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From D4:
Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
Regardless, unless there's an extremely good reason to do otherwise, we need to lynch Andrew Today.
Such a confident read on me on D4. Why aren't you as sure now? And you STILL haven't flavor claimed.
I thought at that stage the night actions implicated you.
What possible good could flavour claiming do?
So what changed?
And what possible harm could flavor claiming do? Why is this such a problem? I've been asking for it for a few days and still nothing.
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From D4:
Archetype is town. I am very confident of that! Andrew i think is town, but I am not completely sure, that is more based on reads...
Why are you confident Arch is Town?
I'm pretty sure Andrew is scum.
Because I am. I won't say more. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town.
Regardless, unless there's an extremely good reason to do otherwise, we need to lynch Andrew Today.
Such a confident read on me on D4. Why aren't you as sure now? And you STILL haven't flavor claimed.
I thought at that stage the night actions implicated you.
What possible good could flavour claiming do?
So what changed?
And what possible harm could flavor claiming do? Why is this such a problem? I've been asking for it for a few days and still nothing.
You pointed out something I missed.
I have literally no idea what my flavour name is, and I don't see the point in digging through PMs to find out.
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming
You are correct, Sir.
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Ok.... Night2 is of interest to me.
According to claims we have the following:
Jimmm investigates WW (sees him target Andrew apparently with a redirector)
Andrew targets yuma with doctor (is apparently targeted by Andrew potential turning it into a JK)
yuma targets WW for a NightVig (should be blocked)
TA targets WW for a SK kill
Ashersky claims to target Jimmmm (but says he is blocked)
Other player actions night2 in regard to the redirected block from Andrew
xeiron is targeted by TA (so it appears he wasn't JKed)
xerxes sent a message to xeiron (wasn't JKed either)
So here is the question:
If Andrew is scum and Jimmmm is telling the truth then WW (scum) targeted Andrew (scum) and redirected his power to ash (scum) because no one else was targeted to be redirected to... unless the redirection as random... but then it would have randomly gone to ashersky...
Also if the redirection works that WW gets to pick who the power is redirected to then WW should have targeted two players, not one...
for reference:
A Redirector is a role that causes all actions taken on a particular Night by a specific player to target a specific second player instead of whatever their original target was.
So what makes more sense?
That WW, ash and Andrew all combined their powers to the ultimate goal of making ash looked blocked? WW targeted Andrew and redirected that power to ash?
Or that WW as scum redirected Andrew's town power to ash? And that Jimmmm is fake claiming a result in regard to it.
Neither make a whole lot of sense to be honest as both result in basically using up 3 or 2 of mafia's powers for an end result of ashersky being blocked. Actually the second one makes a bit more sense as it uses only 2 mafia powers and results in ashersky being JKed (I think ash might have feared being a SK target... he is generally a good vig or SK target...)
I do have a pretty major hang up about Jimmmm only seeing WW target one player though.
And I forgot about Archetype. The redirect could have gone toward archetype, so that might be a possibility...
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but if Jimmmm is partners with WW he would know who WW redirected toward and would know that 2 players were targeted and could thus lie... so I don't know if that means anything either...
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Flavor later.
Witherweaver has been killed! He was Rahvin, the Diplomat, a Forsaken-aligned Redirector!
Xeiron stumbles of of his tent, looking very pale and sickly. "My dagger," he mumbles. "Where is my dagger?"
Vote Count 3.0
Not Voting ( 8 ): yuma, Twistedarcher, xeiron, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, ashersky, XerxesPraelor, Archetype
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on April 27 at 11:30 PM FT.
Also I don't know if it would have been revealed in the flavor here, but sometimes flavor indicates whether or not a player was shot multiple times or not.
Mods: would the flavor have distinguished between whether WW had been shot once at night or multiple times?
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Might not get an answer, but might as well try this:
Mods: Can mafia use their powers and perform a kill on the same night? What if there is only 1 mafia left?
I cannot answer that.
Mods: would the flavor have distinguished between whether WW had been shot once at night or multiple times?
No.
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“Often you don't know whether a woman is friend, enemy or lover until it is too late. Sometimes, she is all three.”
- Thomdril Merrilin
Vote Count 5.1
Jimmmmm (1): AndrewisFTTW
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, yuma, Archetype
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 5 ends on Monday, May 12 at 11 PM FT (note the shortened deadline).
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I do have a pretty major hang up about Jimmmm only seeing WW target one player though.
Yeah, I thought that was strange too. Apparently there are versions of Redirector which direct the action/s to a random player. If that's the case, it's highly likely to be used on a fellow scum.
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I do have a pretty major hang up about Jimmmm only seeing WW target one player though.
Yeah, I thought that was strange too. Apparently there are versions of Redirector which direct the action/s to a random player. If that's the case, it's highly likely to be used on a fellow scum.
That's what I thought a Redirector was. At least, that's what it's been used on Fds as.
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I do have a pretty major hang up about Jimmmm only seeing WW target one player though.
Yeah, I thought that was strange too. Apparently there are versions of Redirector which direct the action/s to a random player. If that's the case, it's highly likely to be used on a fellow scum.
That's what I thought a Redirector was. At least, that's what it's been used on Fds as.
If that's the case it's a point in favour of Andrew being scum (for me at least), since scum can probably find more use out of using that on a partner.
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming
You are correct, Sir.
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming
You are correct, Sir.
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
That's funny.
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming
You are correct, Sir.
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
That's funny.
I'm not trying to be funny. You took that out of context in an effort to discredit me. ash was making similar posts all game.
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yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming
You are correct, Sir.
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
That's funny.
I'm not trying to be funny. You took that out of context in an effort to discredit me. ash was making similar posts all game.
You weren't trying to be funny, no, but you were describing your own post.
I didn't take it out of context at all, nor did I use it to try to discredit you.
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That WW, ash and Andrew all combined their powers to the ultimate goal of making ash looked blocked? WW targeted Andrew and redirected that power to ash?
Didn't ash suggest something like that? To me it seems pointless and farfetched. I don't believe for a second that ash was ever blocked and nobody can definitively prove he was or wasn't at any period of time. The best explanation for keeping me alive that I can see is that when WW was alive he could redirect my night action wherever and ultimately they can push for what they see as an easy mislynch whenever it might be most useful, like right now.
Also notice that ash didn't lie about his role and I don't think Jimm is either. That doesn't mean he isn't scum. I'm not going to push for Jimm to flavor claim anymore but I will say that it's ridiculous considering that everyone else has done it and even if it doesn't matter whatsoever, there is absolutely no reason why Jimm should be so defensive about it. I'm asked him to flavor claim a few times over the past few days. If he missed the first request, fine. The second one, fine. But flat out refusing to flavor claim? I just don't get it.
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I'm not going to push for Jimm to flavor claim anymore but I will say that it's ridiculous considering that everyone else has done it and even if it doesn't matter whatsoever, there is absolutely no reason why Jimm should be so defensive about it. I'm asked him to flavor claim a few times over the past few days. If he missed the first request, fine. The second one, fine. But flat out refusing to flavor claim? I just don't get it.
Point to where I was defensive about. Why are you making such a big deal out of flavour claiming?
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That should say "defensive about it".
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You weren't trying to be funny, no, but you were describing your own post.
I didn't take it out of context at all, nor did I use it to try to discredit you.
Ok Jimm. Here is the full post and it's one sentence long. You don't have to quote the whole thing but you purposefully omitted the part that would actually get across what I was trying to say. I bolded it for you.
yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
Are you referring to this post when you say I was describing my own post?
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
Because this is neither sarcastic nor unhelpful. ash had a similar posting style to how you are posting now, which is sarcastic, empty, and meant to annoy and discredit. ash is conf!scum. There is a connection here.
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I'm not going to push for Jimm to flavor claim anymore but I will say that it's ridiculous considering that everyone else has done it and even if it doesn't matter whatsoever, there is absolutely no reason why Jimm should be so defensive about it. I'm asked him to flavor claim a few times over the past few days. If he missed the first request, fine. The second one, fine. But flat out refusing to flavor claim? I just don't get it.
Point to where I was defensive about. Why are you making such a big deal out of flavour claiming?
The point is you're reluctant to post it. Whether it's because you think it might be incriminating or you're lazy or you don't think it matters is irrelevant. If town thinks it matters (which town did, a couple days ago now), there's no reason why you should be so reluctant to post it.
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You weren't trying to be funny, no, but you were describing your own post.
I didn't take it out of context at all, nor did I use it to try to discredit you.
Ok Jimm. Here is the full post and it's one sentence long. You don't have to quote the whole thing but you purposefully omitted the part that would actually get across what I was trying to say. I bolded it for you.
yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
You seem to think I was using this post as part of some grand case against you. What you said sounded funny. You said either I was a Tracker or I was fake-claiming. Sure there was an and after that, but the part I quoted still meant the same by itself as it means in context.
Are you referring to this post when you say I was describing my own post?
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
Because this is neither sarcastic nor unhelpful. ash had a similar posting style to how you are posting now, which is sarcastic, empty, and meant to annoy and discredit. ash is conf!scum. There is a connection here.
Maybe it wasn't literally sarcasm, but the tone I inferred was something similar. And on its own it's not helpful at all. I thought you were referring to me being unhelpful.
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I'm not going to push for Jimm to flavor claim anymore but I will say that it's ridiculous considering that everyone else has done it and even if it doesn't matter whatsoever, there is absolutely no reason why Jimm should be so defensive about it. I'm asked him to flavor claim a few times over the past few days. If he missed the first request, fine. The second one, fine. But flat out refusing to flavor claim? I just don't get it.
Point to where I was defensive about. Why are you making such a big deal out of flavour claiming?
The point is you're reluctant to post it. Whether it's because you think it might be incriminating or you're lazy or you don't think it matters is irrelevant. If town thinks it matters (which town did, a couple days ago now), there's no reason why you should be so reluctant to post it.
I'm not reluctant to post it. I'm flat out refusing. If you gave a reason it might help that could be another thing.
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I'm not going to push for Jimm to flavor claim anymore but I will say that it's ridiculous considering that everyone else has done it and even if it doesn't matter whatsoever, there is absolutely no reason why Jimm should be so defensive about it. I'm asked him to flavor claim a few times over the past few days. If he missed the first request, fine. The second one, fine. But flat out refusing to flavor claim? I just don't get it.
Point to where I was defensive about. Why are you making such a big deal out of flavour claiming?
The point is you're reluctant to post it. Whether it's because you think it might be incriminating or you're lazy or you don't think it matters is irrelevant. If town thinks it matters (which town did, a couple days ago now), there's no reason why you should be so reluctant to post it.
I'm not reluctant to post it. I'm flat out refusing. If you gave a reason it might help that could be another thing.
The point isn't that you "dig through your PMs" for your flavor anymore. The point is exactly what you said, you're refusing, which is unhelpful and uncooperative for town. It also makes you look like you have something to hide.
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Ok Jimm. Here is the full post and it's one sentence long. You don't have to quote the whole thing but you purposefully omitted the part that would actually get across what I was trying to say. I bolded it for you.
yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
You seem to think I was using this post as part of some grand case against you. What you said sounded funny. You said either I was a Tracker or I was fake-claiming. Sure there was an and after that, but the part I quoted still meant the same by itself as it means in context.
Cutting a sentence in half to make it sound like I'm saying something that I'm not is indeed taking something out of context. I don't see how you can possibly argue this. By doing that, you made me sound like I'm posting something ridiculously obvious and thus just posting for the sake of posting. Thus, you were trying to discredit me.
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Ok Jimm. Here is the full post and it's one sentence long. You don't have to quote the whole thing but you purposefully omitted the part that would actually get across what I was trying to say. I bolded it for you.
yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
You seem to think I was using this post as part of some grand case against you. What you said sounded funny. You said either I was a Tracker or I was fake-claiming. Sure there was an and after that, but the part I quoted still meant the same by itself as it means in context.
Are you referring to this post when you say I was describing my own post?
Unhelpful and sarcastic posts. Sounds familiar.
Because this is neither sarcastic nor unhelpful. ash had a similar posting style to how you are posting now, which is sarcastic, empty, and meant to annoy and discredit. ash is conf!scum. There is a connection here.
Maybe it wasn't literally sarcasm, but the tone I inferred was something similar. And on its own it's not helpful at all. I thought you were referring to me being unhelpful.
Yes I am referring to you being unhelpful. Your posting style has suddenly changed into quick smart remarks and mocking anecdotes. I pointed out that scum!ash was doing the same thing. There's no sarcasm and I was being completely serious when I posted that. How can you turn around and call that post and my other one, which were both essentially scumhunting, unhelpful?
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Ok Jimm. Here is the full post and it's one sentence long. You don't have to quote the whole thing but you purposefully omitted the part that would actually get across what I was trying to say. I bolded it for you.
yuma I think Jimm is either actually a tracker or he's fake claiming and only claiming the obvious results from his fake claimed night actions (no result from shraeye (dead), WW targeting me (would know this from scum QT), Arch (no result from D1 targeting), and me (of course I was going to doctor Arch).
You seem to think I was using this post as part of some grand case against you. What you said sounded funny. You said either I was a Tracker or I was fake-claiming. Sure there was an and after that, but the part I quoted still meant the same by itself as it means in context.
Cutting a sentence in half to make it sound like I'm saying something that I'm not is indeed taking something out of context. I don't see how you can possibly argue this. By doing that, you made me sound like I'm posting something ridiculously obvious and thus just posting for the sake of posting. Thus, you were trying to discredit me.
You DID post something ridiculously obvious. The fact that you added something less obvious is besides the point. Regardless, this is a silly argument.
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OK:
so my main point right now is still this. Let me arrange it a little better...
If Andrew is scum then Jimmmm is town. From there two things happen Night2.
1. WW targets Andrew (partner) to redirect the power specifically to ash (partner)
2. WW targets Andrew (partner) to redirect to someone (apparently it was on ash...)
If Jimmmm is scum then Andrew is town. From there two things happen Night2.
3. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to ash (partner)
4. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to someone (apparently it was on ash...)
Out of these three I think 1. is the least likely. Using three mafia powers to the total effect of ashersky getting roleblocked just isn't worth it.
Number 2 I think is unlikely as well. Why wouldn't Andrew just use his power to block someone originally and allow WW to target another townie to wreck havoc on town.
3 I think could be possible to potentially jailkeep ash and save him from a SK or Vig death. But I think 4 is the most likely (assuming the chances that mafia could choose who to redirect to compared to not being able to choose are equal... we don't know since we don't know WW's PM) as I think it is the best play. Mafia uses a strong PR to 1. block it and 2. move it to another town PR. It is entirely possible that this is what happened and ash just pretended to be blocked. We don't know. Maybe they redirected it to me? Or arch? or something else.
Anyways....
This is a point for me.
Along with my consistent town read on Andrew all game and my scum read on Jimmmm.
I am ready to vote for Jimmmm.
Arch if you think different you will have to convince me...
vote: Jimmmmm
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If Jimmmm is scum then Andrew is town. From there two things happen Night2.
3. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to ash (partner)
4. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to someone (apparently it was on ash...)
If I'm scum, how do you know who WW targeted?
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If Jimmmm is scum then Andrew is town. From there two things happen Night2.
3. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to ash (partner)
4. WW targets Andrew (non-partner) to redirect the power to someone (apparently it was on ash...)
If I'm scum, how do you know who WW targeted?
I am assuming you are telling the truth since you are scum and would know and want a claim that is potentially true.
But even if we disregard your information it makes the most sense to me.
A known powerful PR has claimed. You have a redirector. What scum team doesn't jump up and down with glee and think... we can redirect him thus blocking him and gaining a blocking role for ourselves! Awesome! So if you are scum I am pretty confident that WW targeted Andrew.
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"If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips"--Birgitte Silverbow
Vote Count 5.2
Jimmmmm (2): AndrewisFTTW, yuma
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, Archetype
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 5 ends on Monday, May 12 at 11 PM FT (note the shortened deadline).
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Alright Arch, it's up to you.
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Alright Arch, it's up to you.
Arch?
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Vote: Andrew obviously.
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Well arch has been online and hasn't hammered for the win... so I at this point he is confirmed town to me. Now just hope I am right about Jimmmm.
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Well arch has been online and hasn't hammered for the win... so I at this point he is confirmed town to me. Now just hope I am right about Jimmmm.
I was thinking that, but I'd still like to see a post.
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Well arch has been online and hasn't hammered for the win... so I at this point he is confirmed town to me. Now just hope I am right about Jimmmm.
You're not.
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Well arch has been online and hasn't hammered for the win... so I at this point he is confirmed town to me. Now just hope I am right about Jimmmm.
You're not.
Blast!
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Arch... I see you....
We don't need a vote right now, but where are you at? Do you still need some time? When do you think you will be ready to vote/discuss/etc.... I am kinda dying to know if I am right or not...
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I am kinda dying to know if I am right or not...
You're not.
Does Arch have any chance of changing your mind, or should I just self-hammer and put you out of your misery?
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I am kinda dying to know if I am right or not...
You're not.
Does Arch have any chance of changing your mind, or should I just self-hammer and put you out of your misery?
Arch has a chance to change my mind... and to an extent you do as well... I haven't really seen you put forth a solid effort into trying to present a defense or a case either way... but threatening to self hammer isn't going to help your case regardless
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Still nothing....
request prod on Arch
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I am kinda dying to know if I am right or not...
You're not.
Does Arch have any chance of changing your mind, or should I just self-hammer and put you out of your misery?
Arch has a chance to change my mind... and to an extent you do as well... I haven't really seen you put forth a solid effort into trying to present a defense or a case either way... but threatening to self hammer isn't going to help your case regardless
I didn't think it would help, I just don't see the point of continuing if you've made your mind up already. I've been feeling pretty useless lately to be perfectly honest; I either need to take a decent break from Mafia or I need to completely restrict myself to one game at once and make sure I commit to giving it the attention it deserves. The result of that is that I really have no idea how to defend myself. As I said, I can see how from a neutral point of view it looks like I'm the most likely to be scum, only I'm not and I don't know what I can say to convince you of that.
I'm working today and tomorrow, so if you give me a few days I'll give it as good a go as I can.
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Still nothing....
request prod on Arch
Prod sent
"Hope is like a piece of string when you're drowning. It just isn't enough to get you out by itself."
-Perrin Aybara
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Hey, sorry I haven't been posting. Been really busy yesterday, today and to an extent tommorow. However, I'm going to reread Jimmmmm and then give my final opinion.
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So Arch is officially confirmed Town.
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Hey, sorry I haven't been posting. Been really busy yesterday, today and to an extent tommorow. However, I'm going to reread Jimmmmm and then give my final opinion.
That is fair, just remember that we have a short deadline (Monday night I think?) so we need to make sure we get a decision made before then...
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Hey, sorry I haven't been posting. Been really busy yesterday, today and to an extent tommorow. However, I'm going to reread Jimmmmm and then give my final opinion.
That is fair, just remember that we have a short deadline (Monday night I think?) so we need to make sure we get a decision made before then...
Yes. I have an hour to spare, so I'm rereading now.
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Alright... I am going to unvote for now.
So that if you need to you can vote if you feel that you won't have time to get online but if you still want me to read over what you have written...
Like I said I am open to suggestions, but am obviously leaning way toward voting Jimmmm.
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Day 1: Has a townread on ash and says he has some good points on Andrew. Also says he's getting a scummy vibe from me.
Says this:
Would you rather I not assume you are town?
Ooh, I don't like this from ash. He said it a lot to me in Chocolate Factory.
Restates previous reads, but says yuma is most certainly Town.
Having said that, Town read on ash. I think his point on Andrew has merit. It's a long way from a slam-dunk case, but the way he said it does come across as knowledge rather than assumption.
I'm getting a scummy vibe from Arch.
Could you elaborate on Archetype? Things seem pretty null in my eyes right now.
I can't actually - I just re-read him and can't remember what it was that gave me that vibe.
Wants to lynch Andrew, but is willing to vote for sudgy.
I was gonna say he can vig Sudgy instead, but that's stupid when we can just lynch Sudgyand he can save his shot
Well yeah. On the other hand his claim will be proven.
In addition to ash, wants to know what a Split Jailkeeper is.
Yeah that seems like a fairly believeable claim.
Have you thought about which option you're going to choose Tonight Andrew?
Hammers sudgy at deadline.
Day 2:
I post my mini-case on ash, and Jimmmmm still thinks he's Town. Lurks more and later in the day says that yuma and ash are still Townreads. Votes xeiron after xeiron voted yuma. Starts to get questoned by WW:
First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is. This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.
This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.
Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened? When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable. I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.
It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.
I'm not convinced of this. When you came back, Andrew had 4 votes with you and Ash not voting, and TA was on Sudgy but willing to lynch anyone to avoid a no lynch. So that would lynch Andrew. What changed it was Andrew claiming, not the Sudgy lynch being more viable. Prior to the claiming, you were in a position to determine the lynch. Or at least push the lynchee to the point of needing to claim.
Can't pull up quotes right now, but I think I have the events correctly. Will try to concretize.
He starts to get really confused regarding flavor and asks a bunch of questions about whether or not certain things in green flavor (specifically, TA's Thief result) are just flavor. Gets voted by ashersky for him feeling off about his reaction to TA's result. Subsequently gets voted by Xerxes for having "scummy reactions". Supports a massclaim.
I'm confused about the Jim lynch. Is there a solid reason anyone has for shooting him or has this game just stagnated to the point where people are fine lynching whoever?
The latter I think. Town-aligned players are ready to punish me for poor play without too much thought about whether or how that makes me scum, and any scum who are on the wagon are obviously happy for a caseless lynch to go through.
That's what scum!jimmmmm says. Town!jimmmmm is understanding and apologetic to this wagon.
I understand wanting to punish poor play, and I unreservedly apologise to my teammates for said play. Having said that I think if I am lynched it will be a lynch of convenience - I am yet to see any solid work go into deducing my alignment, and I've seen a lot people say they are happy to lynch me without giving any reasons.
2 good quotes.
Gah, we're running low on time. I think a rushed-for-time lynch is a bad sitaution. There are so many quiet people. Does anyone have a post count?
Can people start posting more? Theories, thoughts, ideas, any explanation for why you find certain people scummy or towny.
I find myself Towny. I find yuma Towny. I find ash Towny. I even find xeiron, the person I'm currently voting for Towny. I have literally no idea who is likely to be scum.
Okay I agree with Yuma and obviously you'll say that about yourself. Why Ash and Xeiron?
ash from ages ago, I can't even remember why. Just the way he was approaching the game. xeiron because after I voted for him I had the exact same thought that yuma had - scum would be unlikely to vote yuma out of the blue.
Stating reads.
Follows Andrew to vote for WW.
Day 3:
Can someone remind me what a Redirector does? How is it normally used?
Redirector can target one player and move all actions that affect them to someone else. As a scum power, it's wicked powerful.
Poweful how? If you were a Redirector, what would you likely use it for?
Target the IC, redirect all actions that affect them to someone else to make sure your kill works. Target a player who is likely to be investigated by a Cop, redirect them to your partner. Target your partner who is likely to be investigated by a Cop, redirect them to the IC.
Reaction to WW's death.
Claims Tracker nonchalantly and asks for a clarification on my role. Confusion about how he targeted WW, the Redirector, and only got one target back. Ash clarifies how a Redirector may work.
Weird thing from Jimmmmm:
It means that if he ends up surviving, he's much more likely to be scum lying about his role. It helps because pre-committing is a good way of getting out of stupid situations like those that might come up if he survives and convinces everyone that because he got his knife back, he survived and wasn't lying, which I think is very implausible.
So you're telling scum, "If you leave him alive we'll lynch him"?
Day 4
Says he Tracked me for no result and says Andrew is likely scum. Really thinks that there could be 2 scum...which I disagreed with him about. Totally dismisses ash and seems very confused about the N2 actions.
Day 5
Tracks Andrew to me. Really pushes that yuma/I share why we think each other are Town. Think that Andrew could have been bussed by ash and that he's reaping the rewards of it right now. Vehemently says he doesn't want to flavor claim. Says he may put up a defense and that I'm conf!town.
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Wow, ok. So my takeaway is that Jimmmmm is very, very likely Town. He just seems so...apathetic? Not lurking like scum would, but legitimately uninvolved. Some of the quotes I pulled up, and others, make 0 sense as Scum because they are either too scummy or just don't make any sense at all why he'd say them. Also, the way he hooked himself to ash doesn't make me think that he was just agreeing with him throughout the game since he had that townread on him since the beginning is too far behind to look things over. Plus, at the end of Day 4 when ash was being lynched Jimmmmm didn't say anything at all. He didn't even try to save ash, which I think he'd at least try if that were his partner.
At the beginning of Day 3, the first question about the redirector could come from scum acting as if they have no idea what it is. However, that second one seems legitamite to me. On Day 2, the way Witherweaver interrogated him, reads as scum trying to force a mislynch, not playful scum/scum interaction. Jimmmmm, but I can totally see you being this uninterested as Town. Some of the things you said make no sense if you were scum and you're play has been very sloppy. Scum!Jimmmm isn't this sloppy.
Vote: Andrew I know I'm Town. I know yuma is Town. That leaves either Andrew/Jimmmmm as scum. Problem is, I don't think either of them are slam-dunk scum. My gut tells me that Jimmmmm is Town and that leaves me with Andrew.
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That was really rushed, but I have to go. I'll try to check in before deadline to read your thoughts, yuma.
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my problem is that i have had a town read on andrew all game... can i just abandon that?
in a normal game probably not, but in a rmm game i think so... yeah i can... vote: andrew
he could be scum, isn;t my first choice but my reads are based off mostly day1 stuff and night2 action stuff.
I feel good enough about this. hopefully we win...
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and no i am not scum hammering for the win...
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THREAD LOCKED
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mail-mi is on-line!!!
give the people what they want...!
in the end andrew if you are town.... sorry. i reaaly did put more thought into this that it looks and was actually a lot closer than i made it out to be....
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"In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes." - Thomdril Merrilin
Vote Count 5.FINAL
Jimmmmm (1): AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (3): Jimmmmm, Archetype, yuma
Not Voting (0):
With 4 alive it took 3 to lynch
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AndrewisFTTW and yuma rounded on Jimmmmm. "Archetype!" yuma cried. "He's one of the Forsaken! We gotta lynch him!"
Archetype arose from a long, long nap and came out of his tent. "Actually," he said, yawning. "After reviewing the past few days in my sleep, I think it's Andrewis."
yuma shrugged. "Alright. Whatever you say, lover.
AndrewisFTTW has been lynched!
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NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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sorry... maybe game isn't over...? delete these if necessary...
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"Oh too much work..." Jorbles said, rushing out of his tent with papers in one arm, and the Oath Rod in the other. "Too big! I'll have to split this last part into three! It's just too big for one!"
He stopped when he saw the almost-dead body of Andrewis. "You need to wait for me!" he said, rushing over to the body. "Here, lad, take this."
"Actually...." he said.... "It's lady." He grabbed the Oath Rod. "I vow to speak no word that is untrue.... I am Nynaeve al'Meara. And I am not a darkfriend." And with that, he gave his last breath and died.
An evil laugh was heard from somewhere in the group...
He was Nynaeve al'Meara, the Wisdom, a Split Jailkeeper.
(ps thread still locked.)
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Yuma, Jimmmm, and Jorbles turned around toward the source of the laughter. Archetype was standing behind the group with an evil look on his face.
Except, he wasn't Archetype anymore.
Lanfear looked sadly down at Aviendha, Faile, and Brandon Sanderson. "I guess this means I've won this war, then?" She channeled the True Power, its fury directed at the three remaining Light-aligned players.
The Forsaken team of Archetype, ashersky, and Witherweaver wins!!!
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Yay!! Sorry Yuma.
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ugh... I knew it.... I knew it!!! I KNEW IT!!!! but I really didn't.....
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Yay!! Sorry Yuma.
I'm really impressed. I had no idea how well your thing would work.
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Why did you think arch was IC?
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I don't think town ever had a chance to win....
I thought this might be the case... my 2% thought... but in the end it just didn't make sense setup wise. Guess I was completly wrong
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Why'd you wait to hammer, arch?
And why did you think arch was town, yuma?
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I was lover's with him... well if he died then I would die. Combining that with a nearly perfect fake claim it made him look a whole lot like very likely to be town.
Maybe I just got too caught up in self preservation though.
Arch why didn't you hammer Andrew?
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Role PMs:
Light Aligned:
A Drowned Kernel/Rand al'Thor:
Welcome to RMM13, A Drowned Kernel. You are Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn.
The Dragon Reborn. The man of whom the prophecies speak, the man who will save the world from the Dark One. The man prophesied the Break the World again, a man whose symbol is used to accuse others of evil. A man who can channel tainted saidin.
A man. Who can channel. A creature of nightmares. Any man who touches saidin is destined to go insane.
You just hope you can save the world first.
You are a Tainted Cop.
-Each night, you may send the mods the name of 1 player. I will tell you if that player is Forsaken aligned or not.
-On Night 2, 3, or 4, you will go completely and irreversibly insane. Any guilty result you would receive turns up innocent, and vice versa.
Oh also, there is one thing... You occasionally hear the voice of your past life, Lews Therin Telamon, in your head. He is the original Dragon, and he went horribly insane and started the Breaking of the World. But you're not just hearing voices. It's real. Or at least, you think it is.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
xeiron/Matrim Cauthon
Welcome to RMM13, xeiron. You are Matrim (Mat) Cauthon, the Lucky Ta'veren.
Bloody ta'veren. Never done anything good for you. You'd much rather be in a tavern, playing a game of dice with a bar maid on your knee and a mug of ale in your hand. Of course, your luck doesn't work that way. Sure, you can make the dice show any number that you want, but the Pattern pulls you back and forth--you've got no control over your own life! Now you're stuck at this meeting, and you just hope that your luck and your medallion can get you through this.
You are a Tainted Semi-Ascetic Townie.
-You have a special medallion that you wear at all times, especially when you sleep. You are immune to any night actions that use the One Power.
-You will be notified that your medallion has gone cold (someone tried to use the One Power on you)
Oh also, a little tiny detail: You have a dagger that you stole from bloody Shadar Logoth. If it ever gets taken away, during the next day you will be sick and hated, and the next night you will die.
Blood and bloody ashes this is gonna be terrible.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
Jimmmmm/Faile Bashere
Welcome to RMM13, Jimmmmm. You are Faile Bashere, a Hunter of the Horn.
All you want to be is a Hunter of the Horn. It's why you left your father in Saldaea anyway. But your life took an unexpected turn when you met the man Perrin Aybara. A tall, husky, strong man, he is very careful about his strength. And you think you're in love. But enough of that talk. You're planning to marry him one day, and he must be taught two things. A wife must always have her secrets, and the spying is a wife's job. You've decided to show him just that at this meeting.
You are a Tracker.
-Each night, you may PM me the name of 1 person. I will tell you the people that person targeted that night. If they targeted no one or you were roleblocked, you will receive "No Result."
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
XerxesPraelor/Egwene al'Vere
Welcome to RMM13, XerxesPraelor. You are Egwene al'Vere, a Dreamwalker
You're gonna be an Aes Sedai! You're so excited, it doesn't matter that you're only Accepted, you just know that because of your superior strength in the One Power, they can't tell you no. You've also recently spent some time training with the Aiel Wise Ones. From them, you've learned how to perfect your Dreamwalking skills, and now can even communicate to people through their dreams. They might not trust you, but at least your friends will know that it's you.
You are a Semi-Innocent Mailman.
-Each night, you may venture into Tel'aron'rhiod, or as it's better known, the World of Dreams, and send one player a message of no more than 250 characters (not including spaces).
-To do this, send the message and recipient to the mods, and I will send the message to the person along with the name of who sent it.
-There are certain friends that are at this meeting with you. If you send a message to one of them, you will become confirmed town to them.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
AndrewisFTTW/Nynaeve al'Meara
Welcome to RMM13, AndrewisFTTW. You are Nynaeve al'Meara, the Wisdom
Curse those flaming Aes Sedai. Taking your village's kids and just walking off with them. That's what got you started in this whole mess anyhow, you had to save the kids! And, turns out, you're an Aes Sedai too. One of the most powerful, probably the most powerful, in this Age. You're also one of the most skilled Healers ever. Such power is right there--and just out of your reach. Thing is, you can't channel unless you're angry. Hrmph. Only reason you're here is to Heal--and maybe stop some Forsaken while you're at it.
You are a Split Jailkeeper.
-Each night, you may use some of your herbs that you keep on your person at all times to either roleblock or doctor someone.
-To do this, send the mods the name of the target and which action you will be performing.
-If you get targeted on any night that you perform an action, you will get angry and saidar will open itself up to you. You will then both protect and roleblock your target.
-You will not be notified if this happens.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
yuma/Aviendha of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel
Welcome to RMM13, yuma. You are Aviendha of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel, a Maiden of the Spear
Wetlanders are so strange. Throwing water around like it's unlimited, don't they know of the holiness of it? Of course, in the Aiel Waste there is a lot less water. There is one reason and one reason only you're outside of your home, and that is that the Car'a'carn, the Chief of Chiefs, has been reborn. The Aiel are his people. However, you just can't stand him. Added to the fact that the Wise Ones are making you stay with him twenty four-seven, his ignorance of ji'e'toh is just grating on you. And you have to love him too? You're just here with your people to serve the Car'a'carn... right?
You are a Vig-of-all-trades.
-You are a 1-shot Vigilante. Once at night, you may PM me the name of a player. That player will be targeted for a kill that night.
-You are also a 1-shot Dayvig. Once during the day, you may post Dayvig: [playername] in the thread. That player will die.
-For each time you kill a Light-aligned player, you will gain toh and take 1 less vote to lynch.
-For each time you kill a Forsaken-aligned player, you will gain ji and take 1 more vote to lynch.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
faust/Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw
Welcome to RMM13, faust. You are Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw, a Viewer
When Moiraine Sedai showed up in Barleon to make you "meet up" with the three boys, you knew that wouldn't be the end of it. You saw it, in those viewings you sometimes have of people, that you would fall in love with the tall, handsome one.
I suppose an explanation is needed: You occasionally see these images around people, images representing what will happen to them. You don't always know what the images represent, but when you know, you know. And, with all these people around, you'll be seeing plenty of visions. And hopefully, maybe, they'll help you, and of course, your lover, get out of this alive.
You are a Voyuer, with a bonus!
-Each night, you may send me the name of one player. I will tell you what actions targeted that player, if any.
-There are also several people who have been Tainted by Mordeth or by using saidin. If a person has the Tainted modifier, you will be told so.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
sudgy/Elayne Trankand
Welcome to RMM13, sudgy. You are Elayne Trankand, a Ter'angreal Maker
You didn't think that a chance meeting with a red-haired sheepherder and a chance to train to become an Aes Sedai in the White Tower would pull you into this mess. The Dragon, the actual Dragon, has been reborn, and you get to be a part of his council? How exciting!
You are the Daughter-Heir of Andor, which means that you will be the successor to your mother, Morgase Trankand, on the throne of Andor one day. You are also one of the strongest people in the One Power of all time, and you even have a rare Talent that no one has had in this Age: You can make ter'angreal! Hopefully, you'll be able to use your political influence, your strength in the One Power, and your good looks and cunning charm (okay and maybe your ter'angreal too) to rat the Forsaken out of this meeting and help the Dragon save the world.
You are an Inventor.
-You have 3 ter'angreal, or inventions, at your disposal. Each night you may send 1 person 1 of these inventions:
-The Dream Ring
-An A'dam
-The Twisted Red Door
-You only have 1 of each ter'angreal, and you cannot target yourself.
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
shraeye/Loial son of Arent son of Halan
Welcome to RMM13, shraeye. You are Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier Commuter.
Humans are always so hasty. You Ogier, you like to take it slow, stop and smell the roses, as the saying goes. You're also nature-lovers. You can't fathom why any human would want to live in a big city, rather than in the countryside, or, even better, a stedding.
Well, actually, you left your stedding for adventure. You joined this little group of travelers, before you even realized that one was the Dragon Reborn. When you did realize that you were traveling with the Dragon Reborn, you just couldn't stay away. After all, if you're not going to stay with them, who's going to write a book about their adventures? You've come to this meeting to rat out the Forsaken, but, in the meantime, you'll be taking notes so that nobody misses out on the adventures of the Dragon Reborn!
You are a 1-shot Commuter, with a bonus!
-Once at night, you may travel to the Stedding Shangtai.
-While there, no actions will be able to target you--effectively Roleblocking any action that targets you that night.
-You also may choose to take someone with you. They will not be able to perform any actions that night, as well as no one being able to use actions on them.
-To do this, on the night when you decide to commute, just send the mods a PM saying Commute with [playername]
You win when all threats to the Light have been eliminated and there is at least 1 Light-aligned player alive.
Please confirm by PM.
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Arch didn't havea chance to hammer Andrew. Yuma voted for Andrew after Arch did. Right?
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I don't know the full setup, but that type of role is really tricky...
ugh... my trio had two scum in it. Archetype was a false flag
and for a while I was very suspicious of arch because of being lovers with him... I anticipated this exact scenario, but the fake claim was just soooo good... I really like that idea of having a Bodyguard that if the bodyguard dies the other player dies as well... kinda an anti-synergy that made sense setup wise.
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he could have hammered jimmmm
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Arch didn't havea chance to hammer Andrew. Yuma voted for Andrew after Arch did. Right?
Yes. And I didn't want to hammer Jimmmmm because then Andrew could block me.
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Phenomenal job Arch.
I'm so glad you switched to Andrew, too. I figured you realized that if you lynched Jimmmmm, we had a chance to lose at night.
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he could have hammered jimmmm
But then he can't kill Andrew at night if Andrew targets him. If he kills you, its a tie with him+Andrew, isn't it?
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he could have hammered jimmmm
But then he can't kill Andrew at night if Andrew targets him. If he kills you, its a tie with him+Andrew, isn't it?
If he kills yuma, he dies, and then Andrew is the only person left alive and town wins.
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ah good point... I guess I should have anticipated that, but alas.
Poorly played by me
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ugh... I guess I didn't even anticipate that at all. O well.
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The Forsaken!
Archetype/Lanfear
Welcome to RMM13, Archetype. You are Lanfear, Daughter of the Night
You are the most beautiful woman on the planet, and the strongest woman in the One Power on the planet--the strongest one can be without the help of an angreal. And one of the most evil. You turned to the Shadow during the Age of Legends for one reason only--revenge on your previous love, Lews Therin Telamon. He betrayed you for that stupid girl Ilyena! And, now that you've been unleashed from the Seals, you are going to win his love back--whatever it takes.
You are a 1-shot Nymphomaniac Godfather
-Any Cops that investigate you will receive an innocent result.
-Once at night, you may use your beautiful looks to make a player fall deeply in love with you.
-When this happens, if you happen to die in any way, they will be so grieved as to commit suicide at your death. However, if they die, you will not die--essentially, they are in love with you and you are not in love with them.
-To do this, either post in your QT or PM me: Use Nymphomaniac on [playername].
-Each night, you may also perform the factional kill and chat with your Forsaken allies here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/AD2btNQEjPiNH
You win when the Forsaken have the majority or nothing can stop that from happening.
You also have a secondary win-con: If you get the person with the flavor name of Rand al'Thor to fall in love with you, you will receive a secondary win.
Please confirm by PM.
ashersky/Moghedien
Welcome to RMM13, ashersky. You are Moghedien, the Spider.
You are one of the deadly members of the Dark One's closest allies--the Forsaken. You are the master of Tel'aran'rhiod, or the Dream World. Lanfear says that the Dream World is her domain, but you know that you are really the most skilled, but you don't challenge Lanfear on it. For one, she is stronger than you, and you much prefer working from the shadows. You will not participate in a fight unless you know you can win. And this fight, this is one you know you can win.
You are a Rolecop
-Each night, you may Rolecop someone. I will tell you their role.
-To do this, either post in your QT or PM me: Rolecop: [playername]
-You may also perform the factional kill each night and talk with your Forsaken allies here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/AD2btNQEjPiNH
You win when the Forsaken have the majority or nothing can stop that from happening.
You also have a secondary win-con: You hate, no, you loathe Nynaeve al'Meara. If you perform the factional kill on her on any night, you will receive a secondary win.
Please confirm by PM.
Witherweaver/Rahvin
Welcome to RMM13, Witherweaver. You are Rahvin, the Diplomat
You are one of the members of the Forsaken--the Dark One's most fearsome allies. You don't like open warfare very much, you much prefer political and diplomatic manipulation. And that's what you've come here to do: a bit of political manipulation. Some people will die in the process, but you'll do anything to make sure the Dark One wins the Last Battle and you get your thrones, power, and immortality.
You are a Redirector
-Each night, you may use Compulsion on a player to redirect them to target the person you want them to target.
-To do this, post in your QT or PM to me: Redirect [playername] to target [playername]
-You may also perform the factional kill each night and talk with your Forsaken allies here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/AD2btNQEjPiNH
You win when the Forsaken have the majority or nothing can stop that from happening.
You also have a secondary win-con: You have a... fondness for manipulating queens, kings, princes, and princesses. If you ever redirect Elayne Trankand to target anyone else, you will receive a secondary win.
Please confirm by PM.
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he could have hammered jimmmm
But then he can't kill Andrew at night if Andrew targets him. If he kills you, its a tie with him+Andrew, isn't it?
If he kills yuma, he dies, and then Andrew is the only person left alive and town wins.
No, lovers worked only one way.
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ah good point... I guess I should have anticipated that, but alas.
Poorly played by me
You played well all game, except for your one big misread. That isn't a fault as far as these games go -- you killed a mafia player, you survived and led town, it was good.
I was so incredibly pissed at you for hammering me after I went to sleep. You'll see in the speccy.
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he could have hammered jimmmm
But then he can't kill Andrew at night if Andrew targets him. If he kills you, its a tie with him+Andrew, isn't it?
If he kills yuma, he dies, and then Andrew is the only person left alive and town wins.
Actually, arch would not have died. The lovers only worked one way: yuma would die if arch was killed, but arch would not die if yuma was killed.
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And finally, the SK.
Twistedarcher/Padan Fain
Welcome to RMM13, Twistedarcher. You are Padan Fain, Mordeth's Tainted Darkfriend.
You were once just a normal, run-of-the-mill Darkfriend. But, things have changed. Ever since you visited Shadar Logoth, you've gained more power, but with great power, comes great insanity. You are completely insane. But, you're not really insane if you know you're insane. At least, that's what the voices keep saying. You hate the Dark One for what he did to you, but even more, you HATE Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, and you are going to kill him, and all of his friends, and all of his enemies, and everyone! EVERYONE WILL DIE AT YOUR HAND!
You are a Tainted 1-shot Forsaken-immune Thieving Serial Killer
-Once, when the Forsaken decide to try to kill you, it will have no effect.
-Each night, you may kill someone.
-Each night, you may also thieve someone. You will receive an item from the person you thieve that is related to their flavor character.
-You may post commands and talk to the voices here: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/EvVN39BsNFwn
You win when you are the only person alive and nothing can stop that from happening.
There is a person out there with something that is YOURS! Mat Cauthon is his name. If you ever thieve from him, you will receive the dagger you have been long waiting for. You will lose your thieving power, however, with the dagger, your kills will become Strongman (no doctors can stop them) and you will receive another shot of Forsaken-immunity.
Please confirm by PM.
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This was a very cool setup.
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he could have hammered jimmmm
But then he can't kill Andrew at night if Andrew targets him. If he kills you, its a tie with him+Andrew, isn't it?
If he kills yuma, he dies, and then Andrew is the only person left alive and town wins.
No, lovers worked only one way.
I see.
Andrew blocks Arch, no kill goes through. Andrew doctors yuma, no kill goes through.
So we would have needed Andrew to doc Arch or block yuma. 2/4 things, so 50% chance of whiffing.
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This was a very cool setup.
I agree.
I think it'd work with a few tweaks as fully open, too. I think you'd have to adjust the double-vig, plus take out all flavor names and flavor related buffs (like that thieving the knife thing).
Good game mods!
MVP Arch, obv.
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Actually, arch would not have died. The lovers only worked one way: yuma would die if arch was killed, but arch would not die if yuma was killed.
Technically, they weren't lovers, as far as the role definition goes, then. Or it's an "Unrequited Lover" I think.
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If no kill goes down during night after Jimm were killed, it would look really weird. Hard to believe it could happen with scum Andrew
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If no kill goes down during night after Jimm were killed, it would look really weird. Hard to believe it could happen with scum Andrew
After Jimm lynch I mean. So next day only reasonable explanation is arch is scum
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If no kill goes down during night after Jimm were killed, it would look really weird. Hard to believe it could happen with scum Andrew
Right. That's why I was so proud to see Archetype not hammer Jimmmmm, and instead move it to Andrew.
WW played well, just got unluckily vigged. I was happy with my game as well.
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If no kill goes down during night after Jimm were killed, it would look really weird. Hard to believe it could happen with scum Andrew
After Jimm lynch I mean. So next day only reasonable explanation is arch is scum
If that had happened, and I was Arch, I'd have gone back to the yuma is scum argument, maybe, that TA was putting forward as SK trying to explain the two shot thing. But yeah, we were probably screwed.
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Also, Andrew, no hard feelings I hope. I was scum, it's a game. Well played, man.
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Night Actions!
NIGHT 1
Jimmmmm tracks shraeye--receives "No Result"
Andrewis roleblocks TA--redirected to XP, both doc and roleblock, success.
Yuma vigs no one--success
XP messages shraeye--roleblocked by Andrewis
Faust Voyuers Andrewis--receives "Voyeur, Redirection"
ADK cops shraeye--gets "Non-Forsaken" result
WW kills shraeye--success
WW redirects Andrewis to XerxesPraelor--success
Archetype loverizes yuma--success
ashersky rolecops TA--receives "1-shot Forsaken Immune Thief"
TA kills Faust--success
TA steals from Yuma--receives Maiden's Spears
NIGHT 2
Yuma vigs WW--success
Andrewis doctors yuma--redirected to Ash, both doc and roleblock, success
XerxesPraelor messages Xeiron--success
Jimmmmm tracks WW--receives "AndrewisFTTW" (there was some controversy on this, I'll explain later)
Wither redirects Andrew to ash--success
Ash cops jimmmmm--roleblocked by AndrewisFTTW
Arch Strongman kills TA--Goes through the first shot of Forsaken Immunity, then is blocked by the second shot.
TA kils WW--success
TA thieves Xeiron--receives dagger (!!)
NIGHT 3
Xeiron dies. Nothing can change this.
XerxesPraelor messages yuma--success
Jimmmmm tracks Archetype--receives "No Result" because of ninja.
Andrewis docs Jimmmmm--success
Arch ninja kills XerxesPraelor--success
ash rolecops arch--receives "1-shot Nymphomaniac Godfather"
NIGHT 4
AndrewisFTTW docs Archetype--becomes both doc and roleblock because of Jimmmmm's tracking, success
Jimmmmm tracks Andrewis--receives "Archetype"
Archetype kills Jimmmmm--roleblocked by Andrewis
XerxesPraelor's messages:
to xeiron:
You have received a message from XerxesPraelor!
I am a mailman. If I am a confirmed town to you, please use an even number of letters in your first post.
to yuma:
You were peacefully asleep, dreaming of the Three-Fold Land, when some one stepped into your dream and said this to you:
Since your character might count as my friend, I'm sending this to you. I think Andrew might get killed because he can't protect himself and Ash looks scummy to me, and they're the other two possibilities.
You immediately woke up. You knew who that was! That was Egwene, or, as his pseudonym at this meeting was, XerxesPraelor!
XerxesPraelor is now confirmed town to you!
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Archetype as MVP for convincing yuma that he was town and getting that last mislynch through on Andrewis.
He sent me this sometime during day 4:
I'm really loving this "Archetype is an IC" thing.
About Jimmmm's result: Some people would say that WW targeted both Andrewis and Ashersky, but I think of redirector more of like "grab one guy's shoulders and turn him towards the other guy," meaning that Witherweaver only targeted Andrewis, and Andrewis was the one that targeted Ashersky.
Oh and QTs:
Mod: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/dkuL2H3m6ReWM
Speccy: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/Arb6Ly3Rstqj5
Forsaken: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/AD2btNQEjPiNH
Serial Killer: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/EvVN39BsNFwn
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Why did the strongman shot work that way? I think I should have died.
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Why did the strongman shot work that way? I think I should have died.
I told them it would go through one layer of protection (1 shot of forsaken immunity) and not through any more (a second shot of forsaken immunity)
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About Jimmmm's result: Some people would say that WW targeted both Andrewis and Ashersky, but I think of redirector more of like "grab one guy's shoulders and turn him towards the other guy," meaning that Witherweaver only targeted Andrewis, and Andrewis was the one that targeted Ashersky.
I completely agree with this ruling. I think redirector and bus driver work differently, so I'd have done it your way here.
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I didn't think Andrew being scum made sense! yuma! >:( ;)
gg everyone.
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I agree with the ruling on redirector and role cop, but not on strongman. But hey, I lived another day because of it!
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I agree with the ruling on redirector and role cop, but not on strongman. But hey, I lived another day because of it!
Strongman PMs usually clarify whether it goes through one layer or all layers of protection.
Like, you'll often see "You are the Mafia Strongman. Your kills cannot be stopped by any means." And then you die no matter what. This one said "1-Shot Strongman power" and we asked for clarification in QT and the mods decided "Your kill goes through one layer of Forsaken immunity" so that was that.
It's valid either way. Would have preferred you died, I guess. But there was no resolution error.
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If no kill goes down during night after Jimm were killed, it would look really weird. Hard to believe it could happen with scum Andrew
Right. That's why I was so proud to see Archetype not hammer Jimmmmm, and instead move it to Andrew.
WW played well, just got unluckily vigged. I was happy with my game as well.
I was pegged by both Yuma and TA. Looking back I see why. Day 1 I was obvious, and Day 2 was better I think, until everything slowed down. Then I was like, "well, no action is bad for town. I should start posting a bunch because town should be doing." But then I came up with nothing good and flailed a bit.
So I don't think I played well, but at least we got a win :)
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ah good point... I guess I should have anticipated that, but alas.
Poorly played by me
You played well all game, except for your one big misread. That isn't a fault as far as these games go -- you killed a mafia player, you survived and led town, it was good.
I was so incredibly pissed at you for hammering me after I went to sleep. You'll see in the speccy.
That was very, very intentional. I didn't want you to spill the beans (since I thought you were likely a rolecop) about Arch and me to your scum buddies during twilight. So I worked pretty hard to make sure that you were lynched 1. when you were asleep and 2. when mail-mi was online...
Sorry. It wasn't something I would normally do, but given the circumstance I felt I needed to do it.
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I was such a terrible cop, sorry about that town, and congrats to scum.
So what was the whole thing with Lewis Therin, mail-mi? Just to mess with me? I was so certain that another player was somehow involved but evidently not.
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Well two takeaways I am happy about...
being right about andrew at the beginning (also blackmail is a good and useful tool for town!)
and being right about how mafia used Andrew's role. Well done there guys, I think it was the right move...
I don't think I would have ever considered fully Arch being scum. I mean I thought about it, but it just wasn't in the running at all. I blew town's chances with that thought, but given how he played it wasn't enough for me to suspect him at all....
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Also I really liked my role. It was fun to claim so early and to basically threaten to vig everyone all the time... That was really enjoyable for me.
Should have just vigged ash 100 posts in like I kinda wanted to...
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I was such a terrible cop, sorry about that town, and congrats to scum.
So what was the whole thing with Lewis Therin, mail-mi? Just to mess with me? I was so certain that another player was somehow involved but evidently not.
well you see in the books rand has this madman in his head that talks to him in his head. i thought I'd include it here, and since it would have no bearing on the game other than prodding you jorbles thought it was okay too.
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Like would have anyone tried to lynch Arch knowing that you were a lover with him?
Especially the way he claimed Seraph Knight?
Or was I just off thinking this way? If I lynch him and he is town then I die and it is two townies down... I just don't see how anyone could think this was good idea unless they were 100% convinced that arch was scum, which wasn't possible since he was a godfather.
I think this setup made it very difficult for town to win because as long as I was alive I wasn't going to lynch arch up through lylo... unless someone took a completely different train of thought than what is expected?
Would anyone in my situation have recommended lynching Arch?
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Yeah I've read the books. It was a nice touch, I just spent a lot of time obsessing over what it meant as far as my role was concerned, I had all these elaborate theories that there was a SK that was a lover with me or something or that a scum player had access to my results.
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I think this setup made it very difficult for town to win because as long as I was alive I wasn't going to lynch arch up through lylo... unless someone took a completely different train of thought than what is expected?
It wasn't the setup that made it difficult for town to win--it was the fact that he loverized you, mr. I'm a confirmed town vig!. I think if he would have loverized nearly anyone else, things would have gone down a lot differently.
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Who are you people? We can't trust anyone! No, don't share our thoughts together, stupid stupid stupid!
Is the game going to start yet? We must be rid of those forsaken! They'll infiltrate us, they'll kill us, they'll...
Ilyena...!
Hey buddy, how's it going.
Who are you? Why are you inside of my head?!
We can't trust any of them...why can't I move my hands! I have to kill them all! Oh Ilyena...
We can't trust any of them! Why are we at this meeting?! There are Forsaken here, maybe worse! WE NEED TO LEAVE!
We need to do something... The Forsaken are here, they'll find us, they'll kill us!
WHY CAN'T I MOVE MY HANDS? We need to do something.... Oh Ilyena...
and finally
We only have 4 hours! We need to submit something!
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so um i know it's kinda bad to laugh at your own jokes but...
I thought the meta jokes of me dying halfway through, then jorbles taking over; then the splitting of the last post into three were really funny.
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Welp. That was an aggravating game. Well done Arch. I really didn't think Arch should've been taken off the lynch table but yuma trusted me do I thought I should trust him. Off to read the QTs now.
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Oh man! This was a nail biter! Well played scum. I really thought that Arch would have a harder time convincing yuma to switch from Jimmmm, not because Arch seemed scummy at all (I thought his claim was beautiful, and fully believable), but because Jimmmm's claim was circumstantially really bad. Jimmmm's night actions always seemed to be on the perfect thing for someone to say that looks like a scum claim.
I have to head out now, but I have more to say! This was fun!
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I think this setup made it very difficult for town to win because as long as I was alive I wasn't going to lynch arch up through lylo... unless someone took a completely different train of thought than what is expected?
It wasn't the setup that made it difficult for town to win--it was the fact that he loverized you, mr. I'm a confirmed town vig!. I think if he would have loverized nearly anyone else, things would have gone down a lot differently.
that is true to an extent... but look at it this way...
Why didn't mafia kill me? Well because I would always be around to say "don't lynch arch!"
I guess if arch had loverized someone else that could have been lynched it might have been better. Say TA or someone...? And then arch could be lynched later?
I don't know. Because basically the player that is loverized is never going to be night killed by mafia and is thus more likely to continue to survive and continue to say "don't lynch arch!"
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WW and ash saying I'm not good at arguing in the speccy QT. What's the deal guys? The game itself was frustrating enough without being insulted and mocked outside of it.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
If you don't want me to put forward effort I'll just randomly roll a dice and shoot whomever it picks for me and then lurk until deadline and then derphammer if I happen to be around... does that work for you?
Voltaire in the speccy said that this is a classic example of a scumtell from me? Cause frustrated yuma is always scum yuma!
Blatantly false!
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I'm sorry. I was having a really rough time with this game. There were so many times I wanted to just be done with it but I kept telling myself that's exactly what scum wants and I owe it to the rest of town to see this through. But seriously, I'm sorry if you have a rough time understanding what I'm trying to say or if I'm not making myself clear or whatever. But I've felt personally attacked a few times, including the stuff in this QT. It doesn't exactly motivate me to play more mafia.
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Also, I was absolutely livid to wake up lynched. Especially because yuma had known I had logged off for the night due to other posts making that clear. My time zone is well known. We had plenty of time to figure out what was happening. Yuma timed it to where I wouldn't be around to dicuss anything, which was a dick move.
It's happened to others who aren't in the U.S. Town or scum, it's equally frustrating to be lynched in your sleep. Why not wait for me to be able to say something, especially after so long? We had time until deadline. Were they afraid I'd talk them out of it? They couldn't know what I would say anyway, or if I actually wanted to be lynched (remember, I play to win, not survive).
I was just incredibly angry. I've calmed down since. Just, take people's time zones into account when you can, if you are town. The sneak attack is a scum tactic.
And again ash, I do apologize for lynching you in your sleep. Like I said it was intentional, but it was strategical in the sense that I feared your role copping of arch would reveal that I was lovers with him and thus you could make it clear to your scummates during twilight. I do normally try to take into account time zones--and certainly did here.
So I hope you won't think it was a "dick move" but see it was a necessary evil from my perspective to help my team best win...
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I think that's part of the game, you don't have to apologize for that.
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Also I should mention that my motivation for lynching you ash was mostly based off the assumption that arch was town and that you had rolecopped him.
I wasn't sure of your alignment either way. But felt that for town to have a good chance of winning you needed to be lynched. Because if we lynched your parter you would be able to go into night "knowing" that I was lovers with Arch and could just shoot arch for the win.
So I felt that I needed to 1. lynch you and 2. lynch you w/o you being able to have any last words to have a chance to win.
We ended up being right, but really it was more that I felt there was a 2/3 chance of you being scum and I wanted to hit you before your partner. Of course that was faulty logic to begin with but it was the logic I was working with. It wasn't personal or even an honest read, it was trying to make the right decision to have the best chance of winning.
I did feel kinda scummy the way I was trying to backhandedly manipulate the game though... I'll give you that.
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I think that's part of the game, you don't have to apologize for that.
Well I generally think that letting people have the last word is the best way to go. And ash has been lynched in his sleep when he had pertinent information to share before... so I know he doesn't like it... although I think he has dealt out a few hammers when people were sleeping himself.
It is part of the game. But it was the first time I had ever intentionally hammered while someone was asleep... I didn't like it, but felt it was necessary
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By the way Jimm if you flavor claimed Faile maybe I would've matched that up with Tracker.
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WW and ash saying I'm not good at arguing in the speccy QT. What's the deal guys? The game itself was frustrating enough without being insulted and mocked outside of it.
I realized it seemed like I was insulting you after I said it. I totally didn't mean to, sorry. But I had a really hard time following things you were saying. Like there was a severe lack of understanding between us. I think I would have acted the same way Day 1 towards you if I were town (and been wrong).
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So I didn't mean to personally attack you. I can say that our back and forths weren't faked at all on my end. I expected you to turn up SK or something, because I was thinking, "why are we arguing? I don't think I'm being irrational. This guy is overly defensive and hiding something."
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Well it seemed like the running theme of this game for me was people misinterpreting things I was saying or claiming I said something I didn't so I was very frustrated and thus defensive.
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
Eh, on my end it's probably naivety. Remember this was my (simultaneous) first game. It seemed natural to think defensive ->hiding something -> scum.
What I don't get is how Yuma seemed so sure you were town. I get "the argument isn't good enough to show he's scum", but Yuma seemed very confident in a town read. I guess that's just experience/intuition/being good at Mafia.
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
Eh, on my end it's probably naivety. Remember this was my (simultaneous) first game. It seemed natural to think defensive ->hiding something -> scum.
What I don't get is how Yuma seemed so sure you were town. I get "the argument isn't good enough to show he's scum", but Yuma seemed very confident in a town read. I guess that's just experience/intuition/being good at Mafia.
Well a lot of it was because ash was pressing me constantly that I needed to have an opinion on him... so I kinda created a strong town read on Andrew because of that. scumslip arguments are never going to cut it for me... at some point I want to compile all of the alleged scum slips and see how many actually are. Cause they just aren't... a thing.
From there I actually felt that Andrew responded townie to the pressure put on him... meaning that he responded defensively and aggressively and annoyed (none of these things are scumtells... instead they are emotion tells, which I often think town is more willing to let through than mafia) but really he spoke sense through the emotion and was pretty much town.
I thought andrew played a pretty good game. In the end I voted for him because it really was in my mind a 50/50 decision and neither one made a lot of sense (I guess at that point I should have looked again at arch, but that just wasn't ever going to happen...)
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Anyways... this game was fun. I liked it a lot.
Sorry to town for being completely wrong. At least my reads were a little bit better instead of being completely off the whole game...
And it is nice to see mafia win a RMM game, town had a good winning streak going there...
Also, Jimmm your Dice Mafia II can open soon! Once EFHW's game fills right? Just three more spots?
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
Eh, on my end it's probably naivety. Remember this was my (simultaneous) first game. It seemed natural to think defensive ->hiding something -> scum.
What I don't get is how Yuma seemed so sure you were town. I get "the argument isn't good enough to show he's scum", but Yuma seemed very confident in a town read. I guess that's just experience/intuition/being good at Mafia.
Well a lot of it was because ash was pressing me constantly that I needed to have an opinion on him... so I kinda created a strong town read on Andrew because of that. scumslip arguments are never going to cut it for me... at some point I want to compile all of the alleged scum slips and see how many actually are. Cause they just aren't... a thing.
From there I actually felt that Andrew responded townie to the pressure put on him... meaning that he responded defensively and aggressively and annoyed (none of these things are scumtells... instead they are emotion tells, which I often think town is more willing to let through than mafia) but really he spoke sense through the emotion and was pretty much town.
I thought andrew played a pretty good game. In the end I voted for him because it really was in my mind a 50/50 decision and neither one made a lot of sense (I guess at that point I should have looked again at arch, but that just wasn't ever going to happen...)
I see.. a lot to learn about this game~
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Well it seemed like the running theme of this game for me was people misinterpreting things I was saying or claiming I said something I didn't so I was very frustrated and thus defensive.
Like I said, I was scum and driving it on purpose. It wasn't personal, just playing hard to win.
I meant no offense here or in QT.
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Well it seemed like the running theme of this game for me was people misinterpreting things I was saying or claiming I said something I didn't so I was very frustrated and thus defensive.
Like I said, I was scum and driving it on purpose. It wasn't personal, just playing hard to win.
I meant no offense here or in QT.
I understand the above being done on purpose, it's all part of the game.
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Ah man, this game was awesome!! I think ashersky and Witherweaver played a better game, but that fakeclaim carried me a lot longer than I thought it would. But man, Yuma was the perfect target. I originally chose him so that he wouldn't Dayvig me and was very surprised that he trusted me so much. I do feel bad about backstabbing him like that, though. He played a great Town game and really his only major misplay was trusting me so much.
Great setup, mail-mi and Jorbles. I've never read WOT, but now I really want to!
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Seraph Knight Loverizer would be an interesting role, though. Same with DaySK.
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I am also getting increasingly uneasy about yuma. I do not like the effort he put in last day to stop a lynch.
This is blatantly false. Yes I tried to stop a lynch on two towns, both of which ended up being correct and I think ultimately pretty obvious. But before that I tried to work my tail off to get a lynch elsewhere, but was thwarted by scum and misguided town
If you don't want me to put forward effort I'll just randomly roll a dice and shoot whomever it picks for me and then lurk until deadline and then derphammer if I happen to be around... does that work for you?
Voltaire in the speccy said that this is a classic example of a scumtell from me? Cause frustrated yuma is always scum yuma!
Blatantly false!
And I was wrong!
I was getting really nervous your claim was an ash-style "Imma go down causing max chaos" thing, as you've also seen I think.
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
Eh, on my end it's probably naivety. Remember this was my (simultaneous) first game. It seemed natural to think defensive ->hiding something -> scum.
What I don't get is how Yuma seemed so sure you were town. I get "the argument isn't good enough to show he's scum", but Yuma seemed very confident in a town read. I guess that's just experience/intuition/being good at Mafia.
Well a lot of it was because ash was pressing me constantly that I needed to have an opinion on him... so I kinda created a strong town read on Andrew because of that. scumslip arguments are never going to cut it for me... at some point I want to compile all of the alleged scum slips and see how many actually are. Cause they just aren't... a thing.
This we agree on!
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yuma, you played very well! Scum won this game, town didn't lose it.
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I'm sorry. I was having a really rough time with this game. There were so many times I wanted to just be done with it but I kept telling myself that's exactly what scum wants and I owe it to the rest of town to see this through. But seriously, I'm sorry if you have a rough time understanding what I'm trying to say or if I'm not making myself clear or whatever. But I've felt personally attacked a few times, including the stuff in this QT. It doesn't exactly motivate me to play more mafia.
I do not envy the game you had. Scum spent the entire game making you look bad, which makes for a stressful game. I thought that it was a mistake at the time on the scum team's part because you really were the most powerful town role once yuma had spent his shots, but it was a high risk high reward sort of situation. I thought you did a good job. All things considered.
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When I say I thought it was a mistake I thought it was a mistake leaving you alive once WW was killed. But I'm drunk and bad at typing.
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And maybe I'm just defensive anyway. I really don't understand why people think that's a scumtell.
Don't sweat your play this game; I thought it was great. I would never in 1000 years have voted for you, and would have argued with anyone who was saying you were exhibiting scumtells
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Oh and also, here's the brainstorming QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/FfGf6tiVPmFH4
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reading the mod QT I feel even less guilty about trying to get a short twilight as I see that arch was trying to do the same as well...
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reading the mod QT I feel even less guilty about trying to get a short twilight as I see that arch was trying to do the same as well...
Mine was mostly so that the mods could have the game end how they wanted instead of me hammering, you realizing I was scum, and having that tension lost by the time mail-mi and Jorbles posted setup info. But I see why they didn't answer either of our questions.
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reading the mod QT I feel even less guilty about trying to get a short twilight as I see that arch was trying to do the same as well...
Mine was mostly so that the mods could have the game end how they wanted instead of me hammering, you realizing I was scum, and having that tension lost by the time mail-mi and Jorbles posted setup info. But I see why they didn't answer either of our questions.
I thought Arch wanted it in case he hammered Jimmmm, but regardless, yeah we felt it best and fairest to collaborate with neither of you. (You guys could still make reasonable educated guesses about when we'd be on based on our usual use times anyways.)