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[Jimmmmm]

I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.

I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?

I can't tell if you're being snarky to elicit an emotional response or if you really do like this protracted nonsense. It was evident from the quick succession of wordless votes that the majority of voters were doing so to prove a point. I, personally don't play that way and my vote then was sincere.

You accused me of saying you were probably scum because that's what it means when you vote. Now you're talking about votes to prove a point. Contradictions are always worth pointing out.

[pingpongsam]

Well, don't let me speak for others.

Those who voted Robz right after he announced intent to hammer AHoppy, what were your reasons?

[Jimmmmm]

Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?

Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.

You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.

I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".

You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.

You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.

What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?

[pingpongsam]

Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?

Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.

You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.

I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".

You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.

You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.

What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?

You are taking my proposal of 2 clearly delineated possible scenarios and removing the delineation as if I think or want both of them to be true. I am suggesting that those two scenarios are the most likely candidates. I can find support for either one but I'm well aware that they can't both be true.

You, on the other hand, haven't suggested any alternatives to those 2 scenarios that you would say are more likely to be the case.

You can pick my ideas apart all day but can't put your own ideas out there to see how well they stand up to criticism. That you can criticism my ideas doesn't make me scum and I hardly see how weighing two wholly opposing possibilities makes me scum.

[Archetype]

Well, don't let me speak for others.

Those who voted Robz right after he announced intent to hammer AHoppy, what were your reasons?

It was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought he meant to hammer AHoppy before he even had a chance to speak.

[yuma]

I don't see anything compelling about Jimmm's case on PPS.

1. I don't buy the "be so ridiculous that town won't lynch you" because that has been refuted time and time again. He might not be lynched today for it, but he will be lynched eventually is that is an actual strategy (or at least he has to be aware of it). Yes mafia only needs to last so long, but I think erratic behavior is the enemy of scum because it is extremely risky as it more often than not leads to people saying "let's lynch him" than people saying "he is being too scummy to lynch him.

2. the perception point is a point, but in isolation isn't enough for me

3. this is taking an example from a previous game and applying it to this situation without having any evidence that it is what you say it is. It is pure speculation. If Robz or I flip scum (PS... I won't.... Robz probably will, but I am not certain he will) then maybe you have a point, until then... nothing in my estimation.

the fourth point about Ahoppy I feel is best said actually by Jimmm himself later...

You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.

this sort of behavior I think is soooo much more likely to come from town who is tunneling (either correctly or incorrectly) than it is to come from scum. Add this to my townier read on PPS from before and that I don't really see the points above, I don't think PPS is a good lynch for today.

[yuma]

I kind of really like Jimm's case on PPS, especially the part about PPS calling yuma/Robz a town-on-town fight being analogous to something scum Teproc did in Chocolate Factory. That's a good catch, may be worth something, could point to scum yuma.

Also, I've read through a lot of long cases, and I feel like I can tell which ones are sincere and which ones aren't, and this feels sincere.

And I really, really don't like this... Flipped on its head it is just as likely to point to Robz being scum if you follow that line of thought, but I don't because until something is actually proved it is rather worthless speculation.

I do agree that I think Jimmmm's case is on the sincere side. But I don't think I agree that it is correct.

[yuma]

and the person that I find scummiest after everything from this is actually Archetype... which means that he is town because I always, always, always read him wrong....

[pingpongsam]

I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.

I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?

A nice subtle twisting of my words here. Actually I originally said:

When you vote someone you are effectively saying "this guy is probably scum". Just because you don't type the words out doesn't mean that is not the message you just broadcast.

The difference is the intent. It's not what you think, it's what you communicate. Thus, my original version stands true even when it is scum placing the vote. Your twisted version breaks completely when it is scum placing the vote because scum doesn't think the person they are voting for is probably scum, they know for sure whether they are or not.

[yuma]

I'm also not getting the super-towny vibe from Scott, can someone explain it? Eloquent posts are nice and all but they don't always mean town, why should it mean that here?

this was TA's last post 4 days ago.

I have seen him online multiple times on both this thread and other mafia threads.

vote: TA for lurking, falling into the general active early but dropping off steeply later and for still not putting forward what he said he would about eevee day1.

[yuma]

and just in case that doesn't prompt him to post, perhaps a prod: TA request is in order to make it official?

[Twistedarcher]

Yeah sorry, I have been kinda following along whenever I have time / am on the metro / whatever. I know I've been slacking.  I am finding that mafia has unfortunately steeply fallen down the list of things I want to do with my free time, but I will try to get to this tomorrow and play out the rest of the game. Yuma vs. Robz feels kinda town vs town but Robz is reading townier, but I don't know if I'd want to vote Yuma. I haven't read much into PPS vs. Jimmm, need to re-read that. Eevee I still think is scum, all the reactions to my D1 case made me thing that -- look at how he ignored my case versus adamantly defending himself (which I think is what happened with Yuma vs. Robz -- town immediately reacts to stuff against them -- PPS is also giving a similar feeling).

I need to re-read PPS vs. Jimmm, and yeah I need to get those Eevee things. But keep in mind other people can do that too just as easily as I can, and no one has jumped to do it...I haven't been feeling too hesitant to rush to it when I kinda feel like it'll be shut down quickly. I am still wanting to lynch Eevee, and feeling like people are giving him a pass just because I haven't bothered to finish my case, which is silly -- regardless of my case people should be looking at him, and not just waiting for me to make a case to react to. I feel like "I'm not comfortable voting Eevee because TA made an incomplete case on him" is kind of silly -- that reasoning means that they think I am scum, so why wouldn't they vote him? Why does my case need to be complete to vote Eevee?

But yeah, I will try to get around to this tomorrow, I hope, or definitely by deadline at the very least.

[yuma]

Fair enough...

I really don't have a very good read on anyone scum wise (except for Robz)... I feel like I have some ok town reads on pps and scott, but my scum reads are all kinda meh...

Jimmmmm I think has moved away from being scummy
TA, despite my vote, I just don't know if he stays away from the thread and puts off the case like that on Eevee (same as Jimmmm...) my earlier posts in that regard was actually kind of a leading question but I didn't really get anything from it.
chairs however, is kinda a different situation and my town read on him has lessened somewhat.

So who does that leave? Eevee and Ahoppy were the other lynch candidates from day1. Neither are super appealing to me right now. I fear part of that is just the natural reaction toward day1 non-lynches though... kind of the "we tried that, but it didn't work... why try it again? sort of thing"

Other players: faust--I could still see myself voting for. I dont' really have a case on him at all, just more of a general feeling that I can't really remember him at all. Obviously that means I need to reread him before I make any sort of a conclusion, but I think he might be kind of the background scum player who is waiting to see where town takes itself before he makes move. And archetype... he has had some extremely scummy posts in the last 2-3 days I think, but as I said before any time that I was certain he was scum he has turned out town and when I thought he was town he turned out to be mafia... so I don't know what to think about him.

Really what I think we need is another blitz style movement like we had yesterday. When is the deadline? Ugh 14 day deadlines... 5 days from now...

PS here is our current vote count unvote


Eevee (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (1): chairs
AHoppy (1): faust
pingpongsam (4): Jimmmmm, Ahoppy, Archetype, Robz
Archetype (1): Eevee

Not Voting (3): pingpongsam, scott, yuma

[Twistedarcher]

Eevee has really not had many town normal games lately...

Dynasty Warriors 2, he didn't place a vote in his first 20 posts, which goes against the examples of Eevee finding a town player scummy for "normally stereotypical scum play"

Dynasty Warrios 1 is a little bit different...his first vote is in his 6th ost of the game, quoted below

Nothing else was going on, huh? There was a wagon forming on TA!! Why would you want to revert us back to rvs when ash, yuma and TA had just gotten the game going?

Voting someone for not following the norms also annoys me greatly, even if it's my frustration leaking through, I'm going to vote: sudgy.

That you realized you got caught of scummy behavior and tried to make it all a joke to escape the suspicion is also a believable scum narrative for me.

This seems to me to be more of an emotional, annoyed post than a "Ok, this person has exhibited scummy behavior". I may be stretching this to fit my case, but I think this differs from the early examples of Eevee scum games of Eevee playing and voting early from his head, and not his gut / his emotions...behavior I think he exhibited this game.

I can go do more Eevee town games, but you all can do that too if you want to.

Yuma, why does the fact that the Eevee/Ahoppy wagons didn't go D1 make you not want to revisit them? Isn't a scum wagon more likely to stall than a town wagon, especially one that just stopped at 4 votes like the Eevee wagon? Which wagon is more likely to stall at 4 votes...a scum wagon, which only has 10 town members to push it up (assuming no bussing), or a town wagon, which has 12 scum/town members to push it up? I don't follow why the fact that the wagons didn't happen D1 makes them less likely to be scum.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?

Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.

You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.

I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".

You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.

You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.

What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?

You are taking my proposal of 2 clearly delineated possible scenarios and removing the delineation as if I think or want both of them to be true. I am suggesting that those two scenarios are the most likely candidates. I can find support for either one but I'm well aware that they can't both be true.

You, on the other hand, haven't suggested any alternatives to those 2 scenarios that you would say are more likely to be the case.

You can pick my ideas apart all day but can't put your own ideas out there to see how well they stand up to criticism. That you can criticism my ideas doesn't make me scum and I hardly see how weighing two wholly opposing possibilities makes me scum.

Wow. You're certainly hard work to argue with.

[Jimmmmm]

and the person that I find scummiest after everything from this is actually Archetype... which means that he is town because I always, always, always read him wrong....

I have seen several things from Archetype that I would have thought were scummy if they came from anyone else.

[faust]

I have to agree with yuma that I'm not convinced by the case Jimmmmm has made on pps. In fact after their exchange here, pps looks townier to me than ever before. The players who happily sheeped Jimmmm's case however look certainly suspicious to me. Jimmmmm himself.... I'm not sure. I would usually give out a town read for a case like this, but the way Jimmmmm aproached this is weird: he originally stated that he "has something to say" about pps and votes for him. Then, when asked for a case, he tells us to wait and says it's not a real case. But what he posted now is definitely a case. This all leaves me null with a slight slight tendecy towards scum on Jimmmm.

[faust]

Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.

[Jimmmmm]

I would usually give out a town read for a case like this, but the way Jimmmmm aproached this is weird: he originally stated that he "has something to say" about pps and votes for him. Then, when asked for a case, he tells us to wait and says it's not a real case. But what he posted now is definitely a case. This all leaves me null with a slight slight tendecy towards scum on Jimmmm.

Hang on, I never said it wasn't a case. I just said that I never said it was a case. I was at work and had time to re-read pps, which I did. I then posted my initial thoughts, knowing that I had more to say but not knowing exactly what that would look like. Then when I had time I collected quotes on him and said what I thought about them and why they came across as scummy to me. Whether or not that's a case I don't care, but everyone seemed to be talking up my impending "case" when all I'd said was that I had more say.

[Jimmmmm]

Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.

Why would scum not mind being lynched? I mean, that in itself is not a reason to lynch someone.

[faust]

Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.

Why would scum not mind being lynched? I mean, that in itself is not a reason to lynch someone.

Why would town not mind being lynched?

[faust]

If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.

[pingpongsam]

Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.

I'm currently just not voting. I would be willing to vote AHoppy. I'd like to resolve the yuma/Robz split as I feel more certain there is scum in there and I'm not entirely convinced a flipped AHoppy achieves that resolution..

[pingpongsam]

If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.

If a D1 power were already expended shouldn't that person keep quiet unless a cop result on a Townie would serve to save them from a  mislynch?

[pingpongsam]

In other words, I was thinking a Mafia result should be delivered immediately whereas a Town result might better be held until later in the day.