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[2.71828.....]

New idea.

Morgrim, if you are the Tracker, target 2.7 tonight. 2.7, target someone. Tomorrow, we can verify if Morgrim really is the Tracker. Problem solved.

So everyone, we are not lynching Morgrim today!

Also Morgrim, if you do not listen to this, prepare to be lynched tomorrow.

Problem not solved.

We have the following scenarios:

When I claimed, I stated that I would bodyguard Faust.  Suppose:
1) I bodyguard Faust, scum kill Faust (or even me directly):
 -  scum!morgrim can (accurately) say that I targeted Faust.  However, I regrettably died so there is no way to confirm and that is a easy claim because I already said I would target Faust
 -  town!morgrim can actually track me and accurately  say that I targeted Faust.  But I am still dead.  No way to confirm

2) I bodyguard Faust, scum kill another townie who they perceive as a threat. (say Robz or Ash or some other vet that they see danger from) (I am not saying they I town, but for the sake of the argument say that they are)
 -  scum!morgrim says I did not target Faust.  WIFOM.  My word against his.
 -  scum!morgrim says that I did target Faust.  I verify, and scum!morgrim gains some credibility for his claim. (but not too much since that was my stated intent)
 -  town!morgrim can only say that I targeted faust, and there is a bunch of WIFOM and "who speaks first"

OR

1) I bodyguard a random player, Faust dies. 
 -  scum!morgrim claims that I am scum since I did not save Faust.  Ugh.  I don't like this.  He will have to say who I did target, but that gets into the "who speaks first" debate
 -  town!morgrim says I targeted player X, and I confirm.  Again, "who speaks first"
2) I bodyguard a random player, I die. 
 -  scum!morgrim is now in the driver's seat.  What story does he want to tell?  The story where I targeted a random VT but scum NKed him?  (least likely)  That I actually targeted Faust and scum targeted Faust?  Or that I targeted [insert name here] but the scum killed me directly.  Interesting situation, and no one quite knows what to believe
 -  town!morgrim can say who I targeted, but it makes no difference.  I can't confirm.  He could just as easily give one of the other two stories.  Basically, which story serves his purpose (staying alive as town) best
3) I bodyguard a random player, Faust and I both survive. And so does Morgrim
 -  A whole lot of WIFOM.  Then we get into Teproc's whole "who speaks first" analysis

[2.71828.....]

New idea.

Morgrim, if you are the Tracker, target 2.7 tonight. 2.7, target someone. Tomorrow, we can verify if Morgrim really is the Tracker. Problem solved.

So everyone, we are not lynching Morgrim today!

Also Morgrim, if you do not listen to this, prepare to be lynched tomorrow.

Also, are you telling me not to target you?  I mean, I would love to live another day, but I will always be questionable town whereas you are confirmed town.

[2.71828.....]

To avoid ambiguity, let me quote:

Okay, so we'll need a soft deadline. Here's the thing: As the IC, I'd like to be around for the soft deadline, but you know, this is sort of complicated with me living in Europe and all. I propose Tuesday, December 3, 2 pm forum time.

So since we are in the business of throwing out random accusations, FoS to everyone who didn't remember the soft deadline, or the real one.

The IC does not need to be around for the deadline.  He just needs to make his thoughts clear.  I do think we can throw out the soft deadline though.  There has been too much discussion to really come to a good conclusion by then.  I mean, the actual deadline is December 4 at 10 pm forum time. That means we have 36 hours to get a lynch together.  If you are taking Morgrim off the table, we will need all the time we can get.
I knew there was a soft deadline someone set, but I'm not subscribing to it. Let's use the time we have!

I take it you don't care whether the IC is around for the deadline?

[2.71828.....]

To avoid ambiguity, let me quote:

Okay, so we'll need a soft deadline. Here's the thing: As the IC, I'd like to be around for the soft deadline, but you know, this is sort of complicated with me living in Europe and all. I propose Tuesday, December 3, 2 pm forum time.

So since we are in the business of throwing out random accusations, FoS to everyone who didn't remember the soft deadline, or the real one.

The IC does not need to be around for the deadline.  He just needs to make his thoughts clear.  I do think we can throw out the soft deadline though.  There has been too much discussion to really come to a good conclusion by then.  I mean, the actual deadline is December 4 at 10 pm forum time. That means we have 36 hours to get a lynch together.  If you are taking Morgrim off the table, we will need all the time we can get.
I knew there was a soft deadline someone set, but I'm not subscribing to it. Let's use the time we have!

I take it you don't care whether the IC is around for the deadline?

oops.  I lost my comment somewhere.  I don't want to type it again so I will summarize:
1) throw out the soft deadline
 - If we take Morgrim off the table (which I do not like) we will need all the time we can get.

2) The IC does not need to be around at deadline.  He needs to make is intentions clear though

[mcmcsalot]

New idea.

Morgrim, if you are the Tracker, target 2.7 tonight. 2.7, target someone. Tomorrow, we can verify if Morgrim really is the Tracker. Problem solved.

So everyone, we are not lynching Morgrim today!

Also Morgrim, if you do not listen to this, prepare to be lynched tomorrow.

Yea I think this plan has a whole lot of problems with it. I think it will also cloud day 2 with only plan discussion and we will be on day three with no more knowledge than whats going on with morg and 2.7 along with dead townies. I think it would be better to lynch morg, I can't believe he is town.

[Voltaire]

I was not thinking things through about Morgrim yesterday. I am quite fine with his lynch. If he flips town, it gives any other PRs out there more information to use in their night actions. And should he flip scum, which I now think is more likely, the same thing except we have one scum down on D1! I agree with what faust said - the wagon/interactions may matter more than his flip, which is darn useful in the first place.

As far as everyone else is concerned:

Want to lynch: morgrim
Would lynch: ash, Jorbles, Jimmmmm, Walrus, Robz
Won't lynch: myself, faust, e, Teproc, manda

[mcmcsalot]

Want to lynch: Morg
Would lynch: jorbles, manda, walrus, jimmm
Won't lynch: Faust, Robz, Ash, teproc, Volt, 2.7

[Voltaire]

Oh, left off mcmc. Would lynch, but don't want to lynch.

[Jorbles]

Likely, if Morgrim is telling the truth, all our PRs are outed (we might have one more).

This isn't the case we could have up to 5 PRs. We don't know what things mafia picked.

[Jorbles]

I'm thinking about a nice plan where I have them name sets of three people which include the target or something... I believe we can work something out that actually works. And anyway, the most likely cases are e is town, Morgrim is scum, or both are town. So it will pretty much have to be Morgrim who speaks first.

What if scum just kill whichever one isn't scum (probably e)? Then Morgrim comes in and says e targeted soinso, and e can't verify because he's dead.

[Voltaire]

I'm thinking about a nice plan where I have them name sets of three people which include the target or something... I believe we can work something out that actually works. And anyway, the most likely cases are e is town, Morgrim is scum, or both are town. So it will pretty much have to be Morgrim who speaks first.

What if scum just kill whichever one isn't scum (probably e)? Then Morgrim comes in and says e targeted soinso, and e can't verify because he's dead.

Yes, the plan doesn't work. That's covered.

[faust]

I'm thinking about a nice plan where I have them name sets of three people which include the target or something... I believe we can work something out that actually works. And anyway, the most likely cases are e is town, Morgrim is scum, or both are town. So it will pretty much have to be Morgrim who speaks first.

What if scum just kill whichever one isn't scum (probably e)? Then Morgrim comes in and says e targeted soinso, and e can't verify because he's dead.

Yes, if e dies, this doesn't work obviously. Then again, if e dies, it's only our weakest PR down, so that's not too bad for us.

[faust]

Likely, if Morgrim is telling the truth, all our PRs are outed (we might have one more).

This isn't the case we could have up to 5 PRs. We don't know what things mafia picked.

Yes, but I do not believe we have 5 PRs, and you should be very sceptical about this as well.

[faust]

I was not thinking things through about Morgrim yesterday. I am quite fine with his lynch. If he flips town, it gives any other PRs out there more information to use in their night actions. And should he flip scum, which I now think is more likely, the same thing except we have one scum down on D1! I agree with what faust said - the wagon/interactions may matter more than his flip, which is darn useful in the first place.

As far as everyone else is concerned:

Want to lynch: morgrim
Would lynch: ash, Jorbles, Jimmmmm, Walrus, Robz
Won't lynch: myself, faust, e, Teproc, manda

Which town PRs do you think would profit from a town flip?

[faust]

To avoid ambiguity, let me quote:

Okay, so we'll need a soft deadline. Here's the thing: As the IC, I'd like to be around for the soft deadline, but you know, this is sort of complicated with me living in Europe and all. I propose Tuesday, December 3, 2 pm forum time.

So since we are in the business of throwing out random accusations, FoS to everyone who didn't remember the soft deadline, or the real one.

The IC does not need to be around for the deadline.  He just needs to make his thoughts clear.  I do think we can throw out the soft deadline though.  There has been too much discussion to really come to a good conclusion by then.  I mean, the actual deadline is December 4 at 10 pm forum time. That means we have 36 hours to get a lynch together.  If you are taking Morgrim off the table, we will need all the time we can get.
I knew there was a soft deadline someone set, but I'm not subscribing to it. Let's use the time we have!

I take it you don't care whether the IC is around for the deadline?

oops.  I lost my comment somewhere.  I don't want to type it again so I will summarize:
1) throw out the soft deadline
 - If we take Morgrim off the table (which I do not like) we will need all the time we can get.

2) The IC does not need to be around at deadline.  He needs to make is intentions clear though

Yes, we need all the time we can get now. But that post is from earlier, when this wasn't all that clear. And I think it's generally better to have the IC around at deadline, so they can react to last-minute events.

[faust]

New idea.

Morgrim, if you are the Tracker, target 2.7 tonight. 2.7, target someone. Tomorrow, we can verify if Morgrim really is the Tracker. Problem solved.

So everyone, we are not lynching Morgrim today!

Also Morgrim, if you do not listen to this, prepare to be lynched tomorrow.

Also, are you telling me not to target you?  I mean, I would love to live another day, but I will always be questionable town whereas you are confirmed town.

I tell you to target whoever you think is the best target, given the circumstances. That doesn't necessarily have to be me.

[Voltaire]

Which town PRs do you think would profit from a town flip?

It's Morgrim's flip specifically, if he should flip town. Because if there are any remaining town PRs out there, they probably have a scum read on Morgrim just based on what we all have posted. If Morgrim lives to tonight, what if the RB blocks Morgrim? What if the Goon Cop investigates him? What if the Vig decides to simplify things drastically and shoots him? If there's a real Tracker who's not Morgrim, they have to WIFOM if they want to track him.

Do you see what I am saying?

[Jimmmmm]

To avoid ambiguity, let me quote:

Okay, so we'll need a soft deadline. Here's the thing: As the IC, I'd like to be around for the soft deadline, but you know, this is sort of complicated with me living in Europe and all. I propose Tuesday, December 3, 2 pm forum time.

So since we are in the business of throwing out random accusations, FoS to everyone who didn't remember the soft deadline, or the real one.

I knew there was a soft deadline someone set, but I'm not subscribing to it. Let's use the time we have!

I take it you don't care whether the IC is around for the deadline?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think we should use as much time as we need even if that means going past the soft deadline, and we definitely needed to hear from you before we lynch.

[Jorbles]

I'm thinking about a nice plan where I have them name sets of three people which include the target or something... I believe we can work something out that actually works. And anyway, the most likely cases are e is town, Morgrim is scum, or both are town. So it will pretty much have to be Morgrim who speaks first.

What if scum just kill whichever one isn't scum (probably e)? Then Morgrim comes in and says e targeted soinso, and e can't verify because he's dead.

Yes, if e dies, this doesn't work obviously. Then again, if e dies, it's only our weakest PR down, so that's not too bad for us.

But then we have no solution to our Morgrim problem and the plan puts us back where we started.

[Voltaire]

Faust, the plan was a very good attempt at finding an elegant solution to the problem, but I believe we just have to accept the (small) risk that Morgrim is the real Tracker and lynch him.

[faust]

Which town PRs do you think would profit from a town flip?

It's Morgrim's flip specifically, if he should flip town. Because if there are any remaining town PRs out there, they probably have a scum read on Morgrim just based on what we all have posted. If Morgrim lives to tonight, what if the RB blocks Morgrim?

Same goes for any other town member. And even if Morgrim is scum, I think he's unlikely to perform the kill tonight.

What if the Goon Cop investigates him?

Then they get a Non-Goon result. Same would have happened if they investigate any town member we mislynch instead.

What if the Vig decides to simplify things drastically and shoots him?

Now, that wouldn't be too bad. Actually, if we have a vig, they should consider this.

If there's a real Tracker who's not Morgrim, they have to WIFOM if they want to track him.

Do you see what I am saying?

So no, I don't really see what you are saying, other than that a town flip of course prevents PRs from wasting their night action on a townie, which goes for any and all town flips.

[faust]

Faust, the plan was a very good attempt at finding an elegant solution to the problem, but I believe we just have to accept the (small) risk that Morgrim is the real Tracker and lynch him.

See, I don't think the risk is that small. After all, we agree that if he's not scum, he likely IS the Tracker, right? Well, there's not a whole lot of scum out there.

[Jimmmmm]

faust, at this stage I think you're probably the only one who can lead a non-Morgrim lynch. If you still don't want to lynch Morgrim, who are you thinking?

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Preferred lynch: ashersky
Would lynch: Robz, manda
Would reluctantly lynch: Jimmmmm, mcmc, Jorbles
Don't want to lynch: Teproc, Voltaire
No lynch: faust, Walrus, e
Don't think we should lynch despite rage: Morgrim

Does anyone have any experience with Morgrim as a PR? I thought e was scummy but I might have just been detecting his PR-ness, assuming that's true. Could Morgrim's excessive weirdness be explained that way? Really the only thing I know about him historically is his propensity for self-voting.

[Voltaire]

Faust, the plan was a very good attempt at finding an elegant solution to the problem, but I believe we just have to accept the (small) risk that Morgrim is the real Tracker and lynch him.

See, I don't think the risk is that small. After all, we agree that if he's not scum, he likely IS the Tracker, right? Well, there's not a whole lot of scum out there.

There's three scum, and a very small lynch pool. Town knows they are town, you're an IC, e in my mind has a very believable claim (and actions), so my lynch pool (ignoring my reads!) is only 9 players, 3 of which are scum. That's before factoring in anything else. I have confidence in lynching Morgrim.