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[jotheonah]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

Sometimes you think a setup is balanced and you miss the obvious.

[Jimmmmm]

[color=blue
jotheonah is full of bullet holes!
he was the Three of Cups, Vanilla Townie.

I think Jimmmmm's point is that you knew there were 2 swords, which makes you more than vanilla.

Being called a Vanilla Townie doesn't make you a Vanilla Townie. Vanilla Townies do not have setup info.

[Axxle]

Town also had the vig hit town with his strongman shot.

[Eevee]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

Sometimes you think a setup is balanced and you miss the obvious.

Worth noting mafia also felt like they were at a disadvantage because of Cuzz (well, at least sparky did). I guess us WW's won the lottery!

[ashersky]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

I think that, if Axxle had no killed the final night along with me, town would have won.

We probably would have lynched Axxle, right?  But then what?  Game didn't end.  I probably would have killed shraeye at night, said Cuzz was a WW, and hoped Grujah would believe me.  Don't know if that works, but if it doesn't, town wins.

[ashersky]

I think losing Insom really hurt town.  His powers were pretty game-changing, if he had been able to use them.  Even his D1 relevation killed off our MA.

[Dsell]

This game was weird for me too. I really inherited it. I think some of the weirdness of this game came from the very, very strange day 1. That series of events led to: Town lynch D1, Town 1-shot vig shooting Town MA, Town 1-shot dayvig wasting his shot. Those things all really really hurt the town. And scum did not shoot each other all that much, although that is always a huge variable in multiple scum-team games. Although, I think MVI is a good case study of why it might very well be best for scum to try to shoot town rather than opposing scum, at least early. I think we saw some strong scum play here. But I agree that the last several days looked highly bleak for town.

[Jimmmmm]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

Sometimes you think a setup is balanced and you miss the obvious.

Worth noting mafia also felt like they were at a disadvantage because of Cuzz (well, at least sparky did). I guess us WW's won the lottery!

Well yeah, Cuzz and MA/Rolecop/1-shot dayvig >>> Roleblocker/Watcher/Vanilla.

[ashersky]

This game was weird for me too. I really inherited it. I think some of the weirdness of this game came from the very, very strange day 1. That series of events led to: Town lynch D1, Town 1-shot vig shooting Town MA, Town 1-shot dayvig wasting his shot. Those things all really really hurt the town. And scum did not shoot each other all that much, although that is always a huge variable in multiple scum-team games. Although, I think MVI is a good case study of why it might very well be best for scum to try to shoot town rather than opposing scum, at least early. I think we saw some strong scum play here. But I agree that the last several days looked highly bleak for town.

Got any MVP nominations?  I'm sure yuma will ask.

[shraeye]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

I think that, if Axxle had no killed the final night along with me, town would have won.

We probably would have lynched Axxle, right?  But then what?  Game didn't end.  I probably would have killed shraeye at night, said Cuzz was a WW, and hoped Grujah would believe me.  Don't know if that works, but if it doesn't, town wins.

If Axxle no-killed, I would have lynched you; then axxle.  If you had killed, I would have lynched you first as promised.  You did the only thing which could have saved you, and I still waffled over it (so well done!).

Lol at the spectator quicktopic for not thinking that ashersky could have been WW.  I was really really close to deciding that and lynching ashersky (or at least split 2v2 with grujah on Axxle and me on ashersky).  Then Axxle would have won.

[ashersky]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

I think that, if Axxle had no killed the final night along with me, town would have won.

We probably would have lynched Axxle, right?  But then what?  Game didn't end.  I probably would have killed shraeye at night, said Cuzz was a WW, and hoped Grujah would believe me.  Don't know if that works, but if it doesn't, town wins.

If Axxle no-killed, I would have lynched you; then axxle.  If you had killed, I would have lynched you first as promised.  You did the only thing which could have saved you, and I still waffled over it (so well done!).

Lol at the spectator quicktopic for not thinking that ashersky could have been WW.  I was really really close to deciding that and lynching ashersky (or at least split 2v2 with grujah on Axxle and me on ashersky).  Then Axxle would have won.

You'll see in the WW chat that I came very quickly to the "no-kill is my only option" frame of mind.

[Dsell]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

Sometimes you think a setup is balanced and you miss the obvious.

I disagree that it was SO obviously unbalanced. This game was drawn from the same deck as the last MA game, and town had the dual advantage of a Major Arcana role and the VTs getting setup info. In fact, the VT setup info was very probably too much of an advantage for town (or perhaps I should say, too much of a disadvantage for Mafia).

[Cuzz]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

I think that, if Axxle had no killed the final night along with me, town would have won.

We probably would have lynched Axxle, right?  But then what?  Game didn't end.  I probably would have killed shraeye at night, said Cuzz was a WW, and hoped Grujah would believe me.  Don't know if that works, but if it doesn't, town wins.

If Axxle no-killed, I would have lynched you; then axxle.  If you had killed, I would have lynched you first as promised.  You did the only thing which could have saved you, and I still waffled over it (so well done!).

Lol at the spectator quicktopic for not thinking that ashersky could have been WW.  I was really really close to deciding that and lynching ashersky (or at least split 2v2 with grujah on Axxle and me on ashersky).  Then Axxle would have won.

The spec QT didn't care if ashersky was WW, because if he was, town can't win anyway. There was nothing to gain by worrying about that possibility, unless you really cared about kingmaking.

[yuma]

yuck....

[Cuzz]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

Sometimes you think a setup is balanced and you miss the obvious.

I disagree that it was SO obviously unbalanced. This game was drawn from the same deck as the last MA game, and town had the dual advantage of a Major Arcana role and the VTs getting setup info. In fact, the VT setup info was very probably too much of an advantage for town (or perhaps I should say, too much of a disadvantage for Mafia).

I dunno if a game with 7 scum players out of 16 could be not obviously unbalanced... That's 0 mislynched territory anyway regardless of other powers.

[yuma]

I will say this... that the more players, the more roles, and the more complications... the harder it is to tell if a game is balanced beforehand, but also after the fact. I am sure there were conceivable situations where town runs away with this game... but because of all the variables it is very hard to predict.

I think this is why I do not enjoy the larger, more complex setups as much. They are fun and I think they have their place. But I fear that this game and a few others are creeping too close to that place, which in my opinion, is Role Madness games... Again, that is my opinion. But for normal games I would like to see smaller games, with less players, less roles and thereby an easier game to gauge for balance. Save the craziness and powerful roles for Role Madness. But if others feel different from me, then so be it. I will likely play regardless.

[Robz888]

I will say this... that the more players, the more roles, and the more complications... the harder it is to tell if a game is balanced beforehand, but also after the fact. I am sure there were conceivable situations where town runs away with this game... but because of all the variables it is very hard to predict.

I think this is why I do not enjoy the larger, more complex setups as much. They are fun and I think they have their place. But I fear that this game and a few others are creeping too close to that place, which in my opinion, is Role Madness games... Again, that is my opinion. But for normal games I would like to see smaller games, with less players, less roles and thereby an easier game to gauge for balance. Save the craziness and powerful roles for Role Madness. But if others feel different from me, then so be it. I will likely play regardless.

I mean... I don't want to toot my own horn or anything, by I argue that my game, Mafia XI, did end up being just about perfectly balanced, both in theory and in practice (except for Frisk's weird Sk role, it probably would have been really hard for Frisk to win). It came down to the absolute closest it could have been, neither side got extremely lucky, both had moments of brilliance and moments of sad, sad, failure... But in the end the team that played better did win. And despite an overwhelming amount of night powers, none titled the game unfairly one way or the other.

This game though, ugh. 1 mislynch, and town had already lost. You just can't do that.

[Robz888]

Well.

That was unexpected.

So... As completely unbalanced as having Cuzz's claim was (we never missed a lynch after), it was still impossible for town to win?

Like, what were our outs here? No-lynch and pray the two scum shoot each other?

We mislynched Robz. That was it. EVERY other lynch was on scum.

I mean... The only way town was going to win is if we got the right lynch D1 and then never missed going forward. That's rather ridiculous...

I think that, if Axxle had no killed the final night along with me, town would have won.

We probably would have lynched Axxle, right?  But then what?  Game didn't end.  I probably would have killed shraeye at night, said Cuzz was a WW, and hoped Grujah would believe me.  Don't know if that works, but if it doesn't, town wins.

If Axxle no-killed, I would have lynched you; then axxle.  If you had killed, I would have lynched you first as promised.  You did the only thing which could have saved you, and I still waffled over it (so well done!).

Lol at the spectator quicktopic for not thinking that ashersky could have been WW.  I was really really close to deciding that and lynching ashersky (or at least split 2v2 with grujah on Axxle and me on ashersky).  Then Axxle would have won.

The spec QT didn't care if ashersky was WW, because if he was, town can't win anyway. There was nothing to gain by worrying about that possibility, unless you really cared about kingmaking.

Yes, exactly. There was no point considering that scenario, because it was a stupid. If it were true, the town was in a no-win scenario despite near-perfect play, and that couldn't be the case, could it?! Oh it, was. Okay, sorry we didn't bank on that.

[Jimmmmm]

Anyway, thanks to cayvie and Dsell for running the game. It was fun, even if it wasn't super-balanced.

[Archetype]

Just saw this. No I didn't consider ashersky to be scum because SEVEN scum?!? Like Robz said, that's nearly an unwinnable situation.

Heck,I even blocked a kill each night. Scum would have won a lot earlier if I hadn't.

I think one of the WW should have been a VT, and then the VTs be given no additional info. That would have balanced it a lot more, but it's still a lot of scum.

[Robz888]

I mean, yeah, Day 1 was a lot of fun. I don't deny it was fun. It just should have been role madness or bastard or something. And I hope we didn't lose cayvie over it, she still hasn't been back.

[Archetype]

Anyway, thanks to cayvie and Dsell for running the game. It was fun, even if it wasn't super-balanced.

Yes thank you for doing this you 2. Wanted to be in a MA game since I read the thread for the first game.

[yuma]

I mean... I don't want to toot my own horn or anything, by I argue that my game, Mafia XI, did end up being just about perfectly balanced, both in theory and in practice (except for Frisk's weird Sk role, it probably would have been really hard for Frisk to win). It came down to the absolute closest it could have been, neither side got extremely lucky, both had moments of brilliance and moments of sad, sad, failure... But in the end the team that played better did win. And despite an overwhelming amount of night powers, none titled the game unfairly one way or the other.

This game though, ugh. 1 mislynch, and town had already lost. You just can't do that.

I agree, your game was pretty balanced. Well... town should have won pretty easily.... but you are right ups and downs for both teams and then a last minute win is balanced. But what I am saying is that creating large balanced games is difficult. I have tried and failed. I am not saying we don't have the people to do it, or that we shouldn't try to do it. But rather that those sort of games should perhaps be the exceptions?

I don't know. Maybe I am just not as adventurous. No, actually I know I am not. Let me put it this way. If I am going to devote 1-2 months on a game I want to play something that is tried and true to be balanced, rather than something new and unknown (and we have a great resource in mafiascum approved games). Others will have a different opinion and want the new games, with new mechanics, and that is fine... I do as well... sometimes....

[Insomniac]

Quite frankly this is ridiculous.

Town was RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, only miss lynched once, AND we still lost? There is no way in hell this game should count for stats.

[Robz888]

Quite frankly this is ridiculous.

Town was RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, only miss lynched once, AND we still lost? There is no way in hell this game should count for stats.

This and Blitz2!