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[eHalcyon]

Yeah, no, the TV series is definitely intending to portray Arya as having an advantage over the waif due to having been blinded.

Agreed, but I consider this a mistake that makes the Faceless Men look incompetent, which is very disappointing to me.

[jonts26]

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?

[2.71828.....]

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?

Correct.

[silverspawn]

2. Jon falling for Ramsay's ploy with Rickon.  He was warned by Sansa.  He knew they had to show restraint.  He charged ahead anyway.

I think the reason for that is that John is an idiot. He's brave, just, good-hearted, a skilled fighter, but not smart or a good commander, at all.

Arya had just spent some amount of time blind and learning to fight the waif in that state. Note the waif was able to see that entire time. Arya snuffing the candle absolutely gave her an advantage. I'm surprised no one else picked this up?

I frankly think everyone picked that up

From someone who has not read the books, the faceless men are ... odd. Because they only show the waif and Jaqen. So for all I know, it could just be those two.

I think it'd have been more powerful if the waif killed arya, to be completely honest. But I'm not mad at what happened. I would have been mad if she'd beaten her in an even fight.

[silverspawn]

I think the primary point of this episode is to show that war is a horrifying, bloody, chaotic, and frankly random mess. The archers, specifically; whether or not you're hit is just based on luck. I also know that this is what Martin wants to show, and I think it does work.

[eHalcyon]

FWIW, I'm also partially influenced by the context from the books. The books confirm that it's typical training; it was only a punishment in that Arya was blinded earlier than most acolytes would be.  I can't remember if anything like that was mentioned on the show, but it's kind of a trope for skilled fighters to be able to rely on other senses.

It's been a while, but if I recall, the Waif was not even in training to be a faceless man in the books. Wasn't she just like an acolyte of the temple?

Correct.

Hmm, does that apply to the show itself?  Maybe I missed something, but it seemed to me that the waif (of the show) was an assassin too, or else why would she be allowed to go after Arya?  Or has the show implied that the waif is in training like Arya?  That's not the sense I've gotten.

My gripe is just that the show's representation of the Faceless Men isn't living up to the mystique that was developed in the books.

[Kuildeous]

My gripe is just that the show's representation of the Faceless Men isn't living up to the mystique that was developed in the books.

And that’s fair. Having not read the books, I am detached from that mystique and can only go off of what the show presents (and what I pick up from you guys here).

While I’m sure the books did a better job of presenting them, the temple in the show was kind of verging into Mary Sue territory. Or at least made them sufficiently badass that one could wonder if they ever fail at anything. So I can see how this particular plot is a way to show that while this group was larger than Arya, Arya was able to turn the tables. Conflict, of course, drives the story, so having Arya defy the Many-Faced God was interesting. If the temple lived up to its mystique, then by all rights, Arya would have been crushed. So something had to be done to level the playing field.

Does that result in a sloppy resolution? Yeah, it does. While I liked how it ended, it was awfully abrupt, and the way they played it up, a healthy Waif should have had no trouble with a wounded Arya, even in the dark (assuming the Waif wasn’t trained in blind-fighting).

In the end, while it was sloppy, I shrugged it off. It was telling a story and I didn’t feel it sacrificed too terribly much to tell it. There are worse offenders.

[pingpongsam]

...having Arya defy the Many-Faced God...

The Many-Faced God required a life, as I understood it, it got one in the waif.

[Kuildeous]

...having Arya defy the Many-Faced God...

The Many-Faced God required a life, as I understood it, it got one in the waif.

Technically, he got the life when Lady Crane was assassinated. Killing Arya was just punitive at that point.

And I guess when Arya bested the Waif, the Many-Faced God thought that was good enough since she wasn’t killed on the spot.

But yeah, it’s an interesting tale of Arya seeking vengeance through the Many-Faced God and failing twice: Once when her rage consumed her enough to ignore her target and again when her compassion won out. This could lead to a very interesting Arya when she returns to Westeros (where I presume she will run afoul of the Hound again).

[silverspawn]

I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

[pingpongsam]

I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

How does one explain the surviving of drinking the poisoned water which apparently only happens when one is no one?

[silverspawn]

I don't think the many-faced-god wants anything. I don't think he exists.

I think it's just about what Jaqen thinks, and if he believes that the price is paid with the waif's death, then it is effectively paid.

How does one explain the surviving of drinking the poisoned water which apparently only happens when one is no one?

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Of course that's all just interpretation, you can also believe that there's a god behind every instance of magic. Then there are a number of gods, though.

[Calamitas]

I was quite irritated (probably emberassed fits better) that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army. She definitely knew about them and denied him the information before the negotiation with Ramsay (they would have had a completely different position then and might have been able to save Rickon) and before the battle. They all might have been just killed off before the vale armies arrival.

[Kuildeous]

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Magic is ill-defined in this show. That’s convenient because it’s rare and unreliable enough that they can’t just hand-wave most problems away, but it’s unpredictable enough to pose a sudden threat.

I’m sure the books go into the religions better, but what were all in the show? The old gods, the Sept, the Lord of Light, and the Many-Faced God?

The old gods likely have power in that indirect druidic way. In fact, these seem to be overlooked by the populace because they do nothing. But it seems to me that Bran is being influenced by them. But the connection is so loose that I wouldn’t put money on it.

The Sept seems to be the most impotent one. I recall only seeing them be political with no hocus-pocus at all (correct me if I missed something). They remind me of the 700 Club: All talk and nothing divine.

The Lord of Light summoned a demon and brought someone back to life. One could argue if it was the Lord of Light or the red woman that has the power. But if she had the power, then her advice to Stannis to sacrifice his daughter would have paid off. So it possible that the Lord of Light may be real, but his will is hard to interpret.

While I’m cool with the idea of the Many-Faced God being real, I could see Jaqen being a bad-ass mystic who can convey the ability to survive poison water or inflict blindness, not to mention the ability to use a dead person’s face to craft a perfect disguise. I’m inclined to go the god route, especially since if one god exists (Lord of Light), then there could be others, and why not the Many-Faced God?

[pingpongsam]

Magic. Which clearly does exist in the word of GoT, but that does not mean gods exist.

If there is a god there, I would bet on the Lord of Light, because bringing someone back from the dead seems like the most impressive thing that's happened so far.

Magic is ill-defined in this show. That’s convenient because it’s rare and unreliable enough that they can’t just hand-wave most problems away, but it’s unpredictable enough to pose a sudden threat.

I’m sure the books go into the religions better, but what were all in the show? The old gods, the Sept, the Lord of Light, and the Many-Faced God?

The old gods likely have power in that indirect druidic way. In fact, these seem to be overlooked by the populace because they do nothing. But it seems to me that Bran is being influenced by them. But the connection is so loose that I wouldn’t put money on it.

The Sept seems to be the most impotent one. I recall only seeing them be political with no hocus-pocus at all (correct me if I missed something). They remind me of the 700 Club: All talk and nothing divine.

The Lord of Light summoned a demon and brought someone back to life. One could argue if it was the Lord of Light or the red woman that has the power. But if she had the power, then her advice to Stannis to sacrifice his daughter would have paid off. So it possible that the Lord of Light may be real, but his will is hard to interpret.

While I’m cool with the idea of the Many-Faced God being real, I could see Jaqen being a bad-ass mystic who can convey the ability to survive poison water or inflict blindness, not to mention the ability to use a dead person’s face to craft a perfect disguise. I’m inclined to go the god route, especially since if one god exists (Lord of Light), then there could be others, and why not the Many-Faced God?

It should be noted that the Many-Faced God is ostensibly the one god that is represented by the other gods of the realm. Followers of MFG recognize one god, Death, who manifests himself in all the other belief structures.

[eHalcyon]

The old gods presumably had a hand in creating the Night King.

Worth noting that the many-faced god is Death, and the Faceless Men hold that every religion has an aspect of it. That's why their god is called "many-faced".

PPE: ninja'd.

[Kuildeous]

Argh, you got me!

I honestly thought they were done with Arya's story for the season and were going to continue it next season. Well played.

[Kirian]

Spoiler:  Someone else died.

[werothegreat]

Argh, you got me!

I honestly thought they were done with Arya's story for the season and were going to continue it next season. Well played.

FREY PIE CONFIRMED

[eHalcyon]

The reason for Sansa's silence was simply because she didn't trust Jon?  OK, I guess.  Does she trust him now?  Maybe his willingness to die in battle or his insistence to yield the title to her was convincing?  Maybe she still doesn't trust him, but won't say so?  The only thing that I find a bit off is that Jon doesn't seem even the slightest bit angry about all the people that were lost because she didn't share that crucial information.  I mean, he pretty much thanked her!

Cersei's plot.  I think that was telegraphed pretty hard in past episodes so it didn't feel so surprising, even though I didn't predict it at all.  The most surprising thing is the sheer number of major players that were removed.  I guess it's possible that some escaped, but that seems very slim considering how deadly wildfire is supposed to be.  Also, I prefer Pycelle's fate from the books.  Oh well.

Overall, not a fan of the direction that was taken with the Sparrows and the Faith Militant.  I hope the book is different.  In the end, it doesn't feel like the plot amounted to anything.  They did a few things and then got blown up in the end, so it was just spinning wheels.  I guess it did have a major impact on Cersei, so there's that.

Arya.  Well that escalated quickly.  Timeline is a bit fuzzy for her getting all the way to the Twins so quickly... and are we supposed to consider her as skilled as a full-fledged Faceless Man now?  Should we think of her as a prodigy?

Benjen confimed dead.  I don't think it was explicitly confirmed before, though most expected it since he seems to be Coldhands in the show, whether or not that is true in the books.  OK then.

R+L=J essentially confirmed.  They still left the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship ambiguous though.

Little Lady Mormont continues to be the best.  I have to say though, Lord Manderly in the show is way less interesting than the show version.  His appearance is more generic and he hasn't done anything interesting at all.  In fact, a fan theory about a particularly ruthless action of his was basically confirmed in this episode, except now it's no longer his deed, it's Arya's instead.  Granted, since the context and details are different, I guess it's not a confirmation at all.  Maybe the show writers just decided to take the popular theory and put it into the show as a bit of fan service. 

Not sure how to feel about Sansa being passed over for Jon.  I guess she's for it though?  Her motivations are so unclear at this point.  The look between her and Littlefinger at the end there, I guess she's intentionally yielding to Jon just so Littlefinger doesn't get his way?

Lady Stoneheart did not appear.

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone else think Arya is actually dead and the Waif has taken on her identity? That would explain the face changing thing.

[Calamitas]

Does anyone else think Arya is actually dead and the Waif has taken on her identity? That would explain the face changing thing.

Don't think so. The scene with jaquen wouldn't have made any sense then (did few enough)

[Calamitas]

Jon part was irritating, Samwell as well (did he just take the carriage with that stolen sword).
Rest was actually quite good, however still not totally convinced of R+L=J (still hope for R+L=D), but i have to admit that the evidence is really strong.
Varys using a teleporter is an interesting clue as well ;-)

[Kuildeous]

Yeah, I’m not satisfied with the discussion between Jon and Sansa either. Anybody with an inkling of military theory can see why her maneuver was dangerous. At the very least, the wildlings should be pissed that they were basically used as fodder.

I was looking forward to Cersei’s vengeance, though I did not expect this. That’s a game-changer. It’s interesting to note that nobody knows for certain that Tommen took his own life. For all anybody knows, he died under mysterious circumstances and oh, hey, look, his mother is on the throne now. How convenient. It’ll be interesting if this comes up next season.

I suppose if I was disappointed with one thing in that storyline, it’s that it looked like they were setting up this great big con for Margary to pull on the High Sparrow. She was being super compliant, but she was clearly not brainwashed as she was able to warn her grandmother to leave. I had thought her warning was actually a message of, “Go on, I have things taken care of here.” But alas, I guess she had no big great con. Her plan was to get Loras to submit so that they both can live? I expected better from her.

I did consider the idea that the Waif took Arya’s place, but that basically means ending her story in favor of the story of someone that we know nothing about. While her story could unfurl and be interesting, that’ll be hard to do if she’s instead pretending to be someone else. Also, why would the Waif bother infiltrating the Freys and massacring that family?

I’m seeing no tension in the Sam storyline. It felt like it was just thrown in there to remind us that the story still exists. Yeah, he stole the sword, but so far that means nothing. I’m sure it’ll bite him next season.

I’m hoping that season 7 is the end. While I’m enjoying the show, I can see it reaching the point of tedium. Very few of the original characters are left, and many of the characters they introduced have been killed in the past couple seasons. They add some new characters here and there, which does help, but eventually I feel the story should come to an end. I hear that season 7 will be shorter than the other seasons. I hope this means that they’re going to wrap it up while they’re still surfing on a relatively high note (I suck at metaphors).

But despite some of its flaws, I found this episode to be enjoyable. Traditionally, the ninth episode was the big turn of the season, but this episode didn’t hold back .

[Witherweaver]

My impression of that look Sansa and Littlefinger gave is that Sansa realized this would make Littlefinger and Jon enemies.  She seemed okay, then locked gaze with Littlefinger, then got worried.  I don't think particularly interested in gaining power even if she's become somewhat of a game player, but she knows that Littlefinger is very dangerous, and Jon is at risk if he's in Littlefinger's way.

I was caught offguard at first that Varys was back with Danerys, but it took some time to assemble all the ships and get ready to transport an army across the ocean.  It was the last scene, so we have to assume that enough time has passed.  He presumably came back directly after his meeting in Dorne.  The show has always had these kind of time jumps; and it's hard to say if it's consistent or not.  (The books have similar problems.) 

As for Tommen suicide, the King's room always has guards.  They know no one came in or out.  No sign of struggle.  There's no reason to suspect anyone.