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[UmbrageOfSnow]

I can help co-mod if you want.

Love to have you, Scott.

As long as you don't mind if I tend to be on the wordy side.  Shocking I know.

So because I'm a bit anxious to get this started, I'm going to start pondering Paris Mafia fixes to make it less mafia-sided.  It looks like 2 more townies and a UB will go a long way to helping town, and the townies help mimes too.  Potential endgame situations are complicated, so I'm going to work out a ruleset and run it by you before putting up a new thread for this.

And would you want to look at a closed setup based on the Greater Idea deck I came up with?  I could go with that too.

[Axxle]

Duck duck goose sounds hilarious.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, so Charge me up needs more work and players than I want to give it, and I don't want to wait for the bare minimum for regular Greater Idea to fill as it's been stalling for a while.

So here's a poll, select as many as you like (or don't bother if you don't really care.)
http://strawpoll.me/5187921

[QuickSync]

Okay then.

Well this is an odd way to backdoor my way into modding my first game, but I'm happy to do it and I promise to do my best.

Would probably like to have someone co-mod though.

Anyway, I see a couple options for this game:
a) Keep it exactly as is, wait for it to fill up
b) An idea I had that I PMed Mail-mi about for running Greater idea with a smaller playercount, I'll post that below.
c) Some variation on the at-this-point-heavily-modified "Charge Me Up!" setup that I've been hashing out in the other thread
d) A totally different open setup, there are plenty I'd be happy to run.
e) A closed setup based on roles in the Greater Idea deck.

Don't worry about my time, I'm happy to put the time in for any of these.  What do you guys (people signed up, and people who would want to sign up) want?

I'll then also come up with some probably stupid theme to tack onto it, but mechanics come first IMO.

It would be a shame if all that talk about a take off from the Greater Idea variation was for nothing. I'm all for you doing your own rendition!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Charge Me Up is definitely not ready the more I think about it.  I'm definitely going to run it some day after obsessing about it so much, but it is not good enough yet.

Duck Duck Goose I am comfortable running as is, I believe it is balanced.

I've been thinking about Paris Mafia and chatting with Scott about it, I've got a ruleset I want to run by you guys for any comment or complaints, see next post.

I've read most of the old games where they ran this on Mafiascum, even though it looks hard for Mafia to win at first, it seems to actually be very Mafia-sided because of the chaos introduced by the Mimes, and the town worrying about lynching the Mimes.  So my balances are in favor of giving Town and Mimes more of a shot.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This game will use a modified version of the Paris Mafia setup
It will be a 13 player setup with the following roles, I also believe town would suffer less from changing 13->12 here than normal due to the large number of vig shots that are likely to happen.  Anyway, I think 13 is best.

2 Mafia Goons
2 Mimes
1 Watcher
1 Vigilante
1 Backup Vigilante
1 Neapolitan
5 Vanilla Townies

Mime Mechanics

• No lynch happens when no majority reached in a day, and takes 50% of the votes rounded up.
  
• The Mimes win when they are both lynched, or when a second No Lynch occurs if any mimes are still alive.  When the Mimes win, the game is immediately over in a loss for the other teams.
• Because of the 2nd No-Lynch clause, and no-lynching on 50% rounded up, Mimes win if the game comes down to just VTs and Mimes.  The No Lynch or lynching the mimes is then eventually inevitable
• If one Mime is Night Killed, the other immediately suicides.
• Each Mime is also a Jailkeeper

Mafia

• Mafia win when they control half the town or nothing can prevent this
• The Mafia's Night Kill is compulsory.  If no target is submitted, one will be chosen at random from among the entire player list.

Town

• Town wins when all non-town players are dead
• Neapolitan is a cop that returns a result of Vanilla Townie/Not Vanilla Townie.
• Watchers and Neapolitans receive "No Result" if roleblocked, Watcher receives "No Visitors" if she targets someone no one else targeted.
• Kills happen simultaneously, if the Vig or Goon would be killed, their shot still goes through.
• Vigs are unwatchable, the Watcher will receive "No Result"

Thoughts?  Questions?

I think I'm down to this or Duck Duck Goose.  I'll create a new thread with a rules post, and a setup post once I decide on that and a theme in the next couple days.  I would like everyone to re-confirm at that point since the game/theme/mod/mechanics will have changed and it might not be what you signed up for, but I'll put everyone who is /in here in parentheses, your spots will be reserved.  (Somehow I doubt that will matter, but best to be safe.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It would be a shame if all that talk about a take off from the Greater Idea variation was for nothing. I'm all for you doing your own rendition!

After some thought and some talk with Scott, I think the closed Greater Idea idea I had would work better as a bastard setup.  I still like it though, so I'll delete it from the Mod QT before I post that after this game.

[skip wooznum]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

[ashersky]

If mimes JK each other, both succeed or both fail?

[ashersky]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If mimes JK each other, both succeed or both fail?

Thanks, should have cleared that up.

Both fail.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Proposed new terminology: MIMELO: When town have to lynch a non-mime or lose.

[skip wooznum]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

I'm not sure I'd consider it an extra rule. Town's usual wincon is something like "you win when all threats to town are eliminated." Mimes could be classified as not being a threat.
Town lynches in order to kill the mafia. When they're done killing the mafia they don't need to lynch. If you're having trouble balancing the setup that's fair, but I don't think making the town auto-lose once the vig dies (I know mafia can kill the mimes and then town can lynch mafia, but is it ever in mafia's best interest to do that? They'd always aim for town, and they'd have to miss for town to have a chance) is going to be much more balanced. What was the rule in previous games with this setup?

[ashersky]

Mafia and/or vig only needs to kill one Mime and both die.  It can be game over on N1.  Sucks and is hard.

It isn't unfair to help.

[scott_pilgrim]

Town seems too dependent on the vig. I think if there are no mafiosos, town should win and mimes lose. Would that make it too hard on the mimes?

Mime is really hard.  The no lynch thing helps, but if they just outlast mafia without getting NKed, they deserve the win.

What Ash said, in a perfect world I think it'd be nice if each faction had a 33% win rate.  I expect Mimes are going to still be lower than that in practice.

Also, Mimes winning comes naturally from the No Lynch rule, if you were to play all the days out, town would have to eventually either No Lynch, Lynch the Mimes, or lynch all the town until a single Mime could unilaterally No Lynch.  (i.e. 1 Mime, 1 Town)

Giving town the win would be an extra rule, rather than an implication of the existing rule.

I'm not sure I'd consider it an extra rule. Town's usual wincon is something like "you win when all threats to town are eliminated." Mimes could be classified as not being a threat.
Town lynches in order to kill the mafia. When they're done killing the mafia they don't need to lynch. If you're having trouble balancing the setup that's fair, but I don't think making the town auto-lose once the vig dies (I know mafia can kill the mimes and then town can lynch mafia, but is it ever in mafia's best interest to do that? They'd always aim for town, and they'd have to miss for town to have a chance) is going to be much more balanced. What was the rule in previous games with this setup?

I've been talking about it with UoS, and that was one of my biggest concerns too.  Right now, the proposed set-up includes a back-up vig to make it less swingy.  If the vig dies, the back-up vig takes over, so they'd both have to die for it to become an issue.  Even if they both die, town can still come back by having scum kill one of the mimes (they only need to hit one for the other to suicide).

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I mean, I added the backup Vig for a reason.

Also, Mime and Town have mutually exclusive win conditions, so they're not really pro-town either.

One previous run had the mimes not die when one was NKed and only able to win by both being lynched so they became a terrible kingmaker.  That game it wasn't clear and the modding was kind of a mess.

Second game also didn't bother to spell that out, was left ambiguous.  Since it's not that likely to happen, I guess it didn't matter, but I don't like that kind of ambiguity.

Third game specified that town wins once both Mafia are lynched.  The town actually won that one, but Mimes felt they had no real chance.  No Lynching was also used somewhat abusively by town, which is the other reason to add the no lynch thing, that's a way to really screw over the mimes.

I do think Mimes winning is more intuitive though, it's not just for balance.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The other idea we talked about was Watcher become the vig when the vig dies, and Neapolitan become vig when vig and watcher are both dead, but that seems way more complicated than just having a backup vig and making the vig Unwatchable.

[skip wooznum]

Do we really want a situation where town doesn't want to kill the second goon because they need him to kill a mime?

I missed the backup vig thing. That makes it extremely unlikely that this happens, I guess. And if the vig is alive, then I guess id rather the game continue....

I'm torn about this...

Then again im not even playing so my opinion matters little.

[Archetype]

Why is the Vig immune to the Watcher? So that if scum fakeclaim the Watcher can't confirm the Town one?

The setup looks fun and the Mimes being JKs is neat, but them dying N1 may still be a problem. Hmm. What you could do is give them a factional JK power and then a factional 1-shot Bulletproof (used the first time one of them is NK'd). I also think that the Mafia may be a bit underpowered. Maybe give them Daychat or make the Neapolitan a Vanilla Cop?

[ashersky]

I think the mimes are always underpowered in the setup.  I think you need to help them even more than you are now, to be honest.  I mean...you've got mafia + vig + back-up vig trying to take them out.

[skip wooznum]

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

[scott_pilgrim]

Why is the Vig immune to the Watcher? So that if scum fakeclaim the Watcher can't confirm the Town one?

To prevent the vig from claiming so that the watcher can watch him.  My biggest concern with the back-up vig was that it would allow the normal vig to claim freely.

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.

[Axxle]

I think roles that win if lynched or killed some other way is unfun. There's enough to worry about in the game than if someone is being purposefully scummy.

[Axxle]

I mean for a serious game. Silly bastard or drunk games they can be fun.